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I'd be faced with this 400-page book, and there was no guarantee that you were gonna get to the end of it by spending time in it, and that blew my mind when it came to a book.
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Maybe a little bit making fun.
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Or just maybe even a sort of satirical look at gaming and like RPGs and, how we can all get obsessed over like a stat that is one number higher
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Hello and welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens.
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I'm your host for today.
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I'm Gem, and I'm here with my friends Alex and Matt.
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So before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our patron at patron.com/gaming the system for some exclusive content.
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Or you can send us a one-off donation via PayPal to our email address.
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We are gaming the system@gmail.com.
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Today we are going to be talking about why literature is becoming more like a video game, or rather why video games are inspiring literature.
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This is, based off an article in The Atlantic where they were discussing the Dungeon Crawler Carl series and how it is transforming how a entirely new audience is engaging with reading.
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Have either of you heard about Dungeon Crawler Carl?
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I have.
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Yes, I know it's had a bit of a viral moment lately.
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and I am attempting to try and find a copy of the first edition, because lots of people have recommended it to me.
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Yeah.
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yeah
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So I, I've listened to the first, I feel like actually I've listened to the first two, two episodes of it, two books, and I think I just started the third book, recently.
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I know that Daniel has listened to, the first six books of it, on audiobooks.
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It wasn't the first of these sort of lit RPG books that I had tried,'cause I tried another one which was just so, tech-heavy that I just really struggled with it.
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They are books that are set in a game world, and they end up being quite technical because they talk about game mechanics.
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So it talks about, gaining experience points and choosing skills and items in your inventory and all of the sorts of things that gamers might chat about amongst themselves or might experience when you're actually in a game.
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But it's spoken about as though it's actually happening, and so it's sort of Ready Player One taken to a, even more nerdy level.
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And Dungeon Crawler Carl is, fun because the lead character is very likable.
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And he ends up in a massive TV show that records characters experiencing a dungeon which goes down in levels, as a result of aliens destroying humanity.
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He embarks on this journey wearing only a pair of boxers and, he doesn't even have any socks on, which becomes a very key point in the story.
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Along with his ex-girlfriend's cat, Princess Donut who becomes a speaking, member of his party.
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And it's fascinating because it, at once, it sort of juxtaposes the idea of, like, this hilarious setup, you know.
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This guy running around in his boxer shorts, trying to fight creatures in this sort of alien dungeon, proper gaming scenario, with this talking cat who's got serious ideas above her station in life, as my, um, father would have said.
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And she's, because she's called Princess Donut, she thinks she's a princess, and she behaves like a princess, and she thinks she should be treated like a princess.
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And that he is her servant.
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And so, you know, it's, it's hilarious.
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At the same time, it's horrific because every time the, I don't wanna give too much away, but every time they traverse the dungeon, the level above collapses and any people on that level die.
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So, you know, it's kind of like a kill or be killed environment.
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So whenever they meet people, it's very much like, can, can we work together or are we gonna kill each other?
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And then within the world, there's also all of these creatures to deal with, and then there are big corporations involved as well, so it's very sort of, has a lot of commentary on capitalism and the media, and there's so much stuff going on.
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It's fun because matt Dinman.
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He basically started, in 2019 sharing it chapter by chapter on Royal Road, and then it got picked up by Ace Books in 2024.
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And, it's sold many, many millions of, copies.
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Most people come to it as an audiobook.
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Dinman has said that around 75% of the fans come to it as an audiobook'cause it is just fun to listen to it.
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And yeah, it's like a whole thing and I think it's just a matter of time before it's turned into a show.
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But we've talked a lot in the past about how computer games become TV shows, and The Last of Us, and Resident Evil movies, and what have you.
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And, we've not talked about how they've become books, so I just really wondered what your thoughts were on that and
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your experiences of this kind of genre hopping
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I'm really interested to listen and/or read the rest of it.
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'Cause I listened to a small summary, in my library digital catalog thing.
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It lets you listen to little samples.
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So I have heard a little bit of, the part up to the alien invasion and that's as far as I've basically got.
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But, I think it's really interesting it's got a lot to say about things like modern times, the times we are living in right now, and the popular influences on our lives.
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So games obviously being one of those, reality TV, capitalism, you know, all kind of mushed into this one story, and I think it obviously takes a lot of influence from a lot of things in popular culture as well.
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So I'm not surprised it's doing as well as it is.
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But I think It might spawn a lot of Dungeon Crawler Carl likes, in the future potentially.
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so that'll be interesting to see what that's like.
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What was the, first one you said you read where it was very technical and you just switched off on it?
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I can't remember what it was called.
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I just sort of picked it up and I got a couple of chapters in and I was just like,"No, this is, it was too hard for me to follow all of the numbers and everything." and it is fair to say that Dungeon Crawler Carl does talk, so when he meets a new creature in the dungeon he'll sort of say like,"Oh, so I check this out," and then it'll come up and I'm audio booking it so that it comes up in a different voice, sort of a robotic voice, and it'll basically list all their stats, like how strong they are, how much XP you're gonna g- So it really goes into the sort of gaming details, that you would experience as a gamer.
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Like a very long list where he just goes through all of the different stats and they got to a point where they could choose a new class.
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So he's talking about all of the different classes that he could choose, and he goes through all the different classes that the cat could choose, and it, can be a little bit information-heavy, I suppose.
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I'm just not very good with numbers, so they just go out of my head immediately.
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But I think the point is you're not supposed to hold all of this information.
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You're not having to make decisions based on it.
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It's more just a discussion, and you can basically go like,"Oh, I wouldn't go with that one," or,"That one, that class would be great for him," and,"Oh, why didn't he choose that?" You know, it's kind of more that kind of conversation.
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I think once you can take a step back and do that, and I think that's what Dungeon Crawler Carl does better than the other book that I tried did, because the other book was literally just listing, listing, listing and it was literally like,"Okay, I can just play a computer game for that." But Dungeon Crawler Carl has kind of got the balance better, I think.
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I think probably something that also helps with Dungeon Crawl to Karl is I've heard from lots of people that it's incredibly funny to
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It's hilarious.
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Yeah.
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Yeah
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definitely helps I think having that element to it If it takes itself too seriously it would be a bit of a turnoff I think.
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Mm.
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playing with it and sort of making fun Well, not making fun.
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Maybe a little bit making fun.
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Or just maybe even a sort of satirical look at gaming and like RPGs and, how we can all get obsessed over like a stat that is one number higher will do this for me, and if it's like too low I'm, I'm completely dead.
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You know, those sorts of things.
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There's a lot of options there in terms of storytelling definitely.
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Absolutely
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I was gonna say about video game novelizations I have seen them but never actually read any books based on video game worlds even though I know they probably appeal to me.
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Like there's loads of Assassin's Creed novels.
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haven't read one, but I just think,"Oh, that'd be cool to read," and then I have not actually done it.
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I know that there's don't know if there's Tomb Raider ones, but I know that they a time during my childhood where they would novelize a lot of films.
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So I have a novel version of the first Tomb Raider film with Angelina Jolie which was quite good.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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Oh, that sounds awesome.
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really good.
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I want that
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obviously they're quite hammy, but then they are based on these films, so I think it You go in expecting a, you know, a popcorn book as it were.
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They're not any great works of literature, but they're fun.
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They're a fun time, you know.
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I'm waiting at the moment for a book that is coming out about Astarion from Baldur's Gate 3, and, I'm just really excited for that annoyingly, it came out in the States at the end of September, but it doesn't come out here until, the 15th of October,
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you're
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'Cause, of course, it's, narrated by Neil, Neil Newbon, so, you know, I'm just...
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And really, ironically, it's written by, T.
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Kingfisher, who I have just really randomly, totally got into over the last few months, and I've been listening to a lot of audiobooks from T.
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Kingfisher.
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And then I was chatting to Finn, about it and they were saying like,"Oh, I'm not sure how the book's gonna be." They were like,"Oh, it's this author called T.
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Kingfisher," So I'm hoping it's gonna be a really good book.
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I'm just frustrated because Neil Newbon was, on Instagram going like, it's available.
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You can get it from everywhere that you get your books from." And I was like,"No, I can't because I'm in the UK." And he's British, for goodness sakes.
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He should've known that
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Yes
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Matt?
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Have you come across You said you haven't come across Dungeon Crawler Carl.
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I did think about you the other day.
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I was like,"I think you'd actually really quite like it." you tend to read much more highbrow books as far as I can tell, but I still think you'd enjoy it.
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I think it would be a fun read
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I don't know.
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I think it might be a good thing that I give off the impression that I read like that, but I really don't.
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We'll gloss over that.
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I'm not highbrow.
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That's not me at all.
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But I will say that the dungeon, dungeon crawler Kyle, Carl awful
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Åh
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It sounds awful.
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It does sound awful, I agree, but it isn't.
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So that's my, uh, uh, my reaction to everything that I've, I've heard and read about it.
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But, yeah, I, I, care.
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It doesn't, doesn't matter to me.
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People, people love all sorts of things that I don't care about or I don't think are very good.
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I don't care.
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Uh, it's, it just I really don't like that, like, bl- like blunt satire or blunt breaking the fourth wall things.
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So it being,"Oh, yeah, it's a, it's a game, a game book that knows it's a game book about game book stuff," and, and yeah, just
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Yeah, but it's not.
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It's a book about a real-life person who finds himself in a game world.
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There's another layer in it,
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there's also the thing that something that is Being funny is the hardest thing.
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something that is funny is so difficult because you can't, like, if you read, like, any other, like, normal kind of fiction, you can go, oh, it's trying to do this.
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It's trying to be smart.
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It's trying to be interesting.
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if someone doesn't, like, laugh at it or find it funny, then it's not funny.
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And is something that you can't guarantee that some people will laugh at it and some people will.
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So if it's funny to huge numbers of people, a really special thing that it has for those people.
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But then also humor is something that can't just be, like, transposed onto people.
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So it could be excellent, an excellent thing.
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But if I'm judging it before reading it, I don't know if I'll ever read it, but it feels like it would grate on me.
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And that doesn't mean it's not funny.
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It just means that it's not my sense of humor.
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The, um, article in The Atlantic, they have a quote Dinniman himself told me that he knows a common reaction to Dungeon Crawler Carl is,'This is a stupid title, it's a stupid premise, and it's a boy's book.' But he added,'Slowly, slowly, slowly, they hate-read it until they love-read it.'" And the author says,"He got me on the first part because I found these books baffling.
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As Carl marched through battles and gameplay tutorials, the narrative careened between madcap action and maddening exposition.
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The prose bombarded me with information and sarcastic exclamation points.
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Early on, the game announces to Carl,'New achievement.
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Ooh, magic.
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You're wearing gear for the first time.
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You're a wizard, Crawler.'"Re- reward.
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You've received a bronze adventurer box." I am actually like, you know, im- imitating the character in the audiobook.
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Uh,"This contains an enchanted toe ring that imbues the re- the wearer with a plus three strength and gives plus three to the pa- skill powerful strike." So yeah, it is really detailed, but there is definitely something to it, and I would really like to challenge you, Matt, to actually read the first book, or audiobook, the first book and, and then see what you think about it, because I, I'm really intrigued as to your thoughts on it from
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we
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actually reading it
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actually
thinking about it, we could do, like, an episode per chapter reaction series of Pod to move on to,'cause I've not listened to it properly.
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We totally could, couldn't we?
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that.
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I don't know.
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We'll see.
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Can you see?
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You- none of you can see Matt's face, but it is not enthusiastic.
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do either of you hate, hate do anything?
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Hate watch, hate listen, hate
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Oh yeah.
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I've, I've, I've done it in the past sort of
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I just
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one time
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I just, I can't.
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I can't do it.
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There are too many things that I know I like and I know that I love.
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I've got a big enough list of those things that choosing something that makes me go,"Ugh, sounds awful.
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Aw.
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We'll convince him, don't you worry.
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see.
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We'll give him one chapter And see.
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we'll see
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So have you got any other books that you, that fit into this, this sort of gaming genre that we could, we can convince you to read or you can convince us to read?
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Fighting Fantasy books by Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone, I
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Oh yeah
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them was responsible for Warhammer.
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Mm.
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They went on to do that.
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And I think the other one had something to do with Dungeons Dragons in the early days as well.
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Mm.
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But that, that I, I was captivated by them when I was really young So I, I assumed when you were talking about this dungeon crawler Carl thing, I assumed it was like an interactive book.
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Like it's a, a lit
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Oh, like a choose your own adventure book, do you mean?
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so a, a lit RPG.
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That's what I assumed
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Hmm
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But it being a, a story that's set in a, like a, a games like wo- like a game mechanic
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Mm.
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Whereas this, it's, basically a, a dice rolling game,'cause you've got...
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It had dice, uh, two dice heads printed on every page.
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So
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Mm.
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through the book and then stop and open it, and that would be the dice roll that you could do on, uh, on that particular thing.
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And like a normal book having 400 entries in it, and you start off on the first one.
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Ooh, you enter, you've entered Deathtrap Dungeon.
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Do you take...
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Do you go left or do you go right?
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And you go left, and then you go right.
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Roll, roll two dice.
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And you roll it, and if you get lower than this, you go to number four.
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you go into number four, a, a trap board up out of the floor with a spike on it and
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Yeah
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Your adventure is over.
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Yeah
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And, and you couldn't You...
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It was impossible to get to the end without playing it properly all the way through, because you have to...
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It doesn't just go,"Oh, you...
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Do you want to fight this thing or fight that thing?" It's go, you...
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Oh, you've seen a glinty thing over there.
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Uh, there's a, there's a tunnel down there that you smell something nice coming out of." It's all those things where you go,"I have no idea what might happen in the next thing." And it's I have to go from number four to 233, and then it might be 233 to 141, and you just get...
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There's no quick saving.
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Nei
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And you can't...
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And then you'll reach a, you'll reach a point near the end where you go,"Oh, there are three key slots," and unless you've did the...
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you went the proper way and found the keys know exactly which, uh, which entry they're from, then you can't, you can't just pretend that you've succeeded
00:22:10.413 --> 00:22:16.871
So how often did you, like, hold a page, you know, hold your hand in a page while you, while you
00:22:17.564 --> 00:22:17.657
It's
00:22:17.705 --> 00:22:19.173
went to the next one
00:22:19.242 --> 00:22:20.183
constantly
00:22:20.310 --> 00:22:22.126
like, go back and re-roll?
00:22:22.522 --> 00:22:24.925
Just, trying...
00:22:25.875 --> 00:22:29.721
It's just trying to be in command of it.
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:30.443
Going,
00:22:30.557 --> 00:22:30.567
Mhm.
00:22:30.567 --> 00:22:36.709
want to get to the end, in order to get to the end, I need to know the ingredients for the last bit.
00:22:37.682 --> 00:22:40.221
And in order to do that, I need to go, right, page one.
00:22:41.001 --> 00:22:43.354
I'm gonna go left and then...
00:22:43.676 --> 00:22:45.038
Okay, 332.
00:22:46.825 --> 00:22:48.648
Uh, do you go left?
00:22:48.663 --> 00:22:50.135
Do you speak to the person in the bar?
00:22:50.140 --> 00:22:52.284
Do you
speak to the person around the back of the tavern?
00:22:53.259 --> 00:22:57.278
Okay, I'll try going around the back of the tavern." And just that...
00:22:57.358 --> 00:23:15.596
And I, eventually I just stopped because I, I just, I, I'd be faced with this 400-page book, and there was no guarantee that you were gonna get to the end of it by spending time in it, and that blew my mind when it came to a book.
00:23:16.078 --> 00:23:20.382
Because supposedly you've got a book, you do page one, then page two, then page three until it's finished.
00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:24.233
Whereas this, you, you have to read it over and over again.
00:23:25.086 --> 00:23:28.152
I feel like I, I have this instinct to, I need to...
00:23:28.957 --> 00:23:31.449
trying to unlearn this through gaming as well.
00:23:31.663 --> 00:23:39.609
I want to get it right the first time so then it's done, and then I can move on to the next thing.
00:23:41.096 --> 00:23:50.951
Whereas with games, replaying them, especially with New Game Plus, is a, a massive deal.
00:23:51.712 --> 00:23:57.613
that was a really just, uh, a wonderful...
00:23:59.096 --> 00:24:08.019
it captured that choose your own adventure experience it being digital or equipment-based or other people-based.
00:24:08.019 --> 00:24:08.040
So
00:24:09.063 --> 00:24:09.650
Yeah.
00:24:09.769 --> 00:24:30.724
I mean, it was fundamental to my, to, in my childhood, the choose your own adventure games because that's what led into ultimately the, the whole, um, mudding experience and the text adventures and, and then became my whole gaming experience.
00:24:30.733 --> 00:24:43.178
So I have hugely fond memories of that, experience because it took reading to it to another level before computer games even existed.
00:24:43.807 --> 00:24:44.959
Definitely, yeah.
00:24:45.723 --> 00:24:47.614
I should do more tea sharing adventures.
00:24:48.078 --> 00:24:49.080
I think they're really fun
00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:55.227
so, so Alex, you've not read the Dungeon Crawl Erlecarl books, but you think you might?
00:24:55.243 --> 00:24:56.176
I probably will.
00:24:56.258 --> 00:24:56.794
Yes.
00:24:56.894 --> 00:24:57.625
Yeah, I think I
00:24:57.694 --> 00:25:10.544
It's very different from taking a computer game and turning it into like, we had with The Last of Us, and, Resident Evil and Fallout.
00:25:10.849 --> 00:25:33.303
It's perhaps a more honest exploration of gaming, of the gaming experience because it, it is about making all these decisions about, you know, what armor do I wear and what stats do I prioritize in, in leveling up my character and what class should I be, and those sorts of things.
00:25:33.814 --> 00:25:52.143
They've also, talked a lot about combat, about when you go into a fight, you know, who does what and what happens and how do you work it, which is obviously the thing that they completely write out of TV shows like The Last of Us and Fallout.
00:25:52.228 --> 00:25:58.765
I think it probably does appeal to a lot of gamers because we're already versed in that, that sort of language, aren't we?
00:25:59.423 --> 00:25:59.432
Mm.
00:25:59.778 --> 00:26:12.895
The leveling up, the skill trees, the experience, the different stats, so it almost would feel, I suppose, less of a challenge in terms of understanding from that perspective.
00:26:13.214 --> 00:26:25.622
I'd be interested to know what a non-gamer would think of it, if they were listening or reading it, and they don't game or don't play those types of games, what they think or how confusing they find it.
00:26:25.622 --> 00:26:28.838
I think they would find it very confusing B- just,
00:26:29.111 --> 00:26:29.250
Ja.
00:26:29.263 --> 00:26:32.771
um, based on my experience as a gamer reading it.
00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:44.907
But one of the things that the article in The Atlantic talks about is how it's kind of bringing a whole group of people who don't read to reading.
00:26:45.280 --> 00:26:59.424
You know, there is a whole generation that haven't got that reading bug yet because they have TikTok and, Snapchat and, Roblox and what have you.
00:26:59.424 --> 00:27:05.347
And so they just don't read because they, they go online for their fantasy.
00:27:05.365 --> 00:27:18.810
They don't need to read books other than maybe for school and so this is a, a, a sort of way of bringing them into reading and, you know, maybe that's a positive thing as well
00:27:20.141 --> 00:27:20.944
Hun- hundred percent.
00:27:20.954 --> 00:27:27.517
That's the, that's the thing that blows anything that It doesn't care what I, what I think about it.
00:27:28.464 --> 00:27:29.845
It get, it gets people reading.
00:27:30.093 --> 00:27:30.484
It gets
00:27:30.748 --> 00:27:32.290
Mm.
00:27:32.817 --> 00:27:46.222
It gets people engaging in, in that, that it's good for people to have one foot in, have that be something that they, they can engage with.
00:27:48.229 --> 00:27:52.621
if that's It doesn't matter how you get someone into reading, if they're, as long as they're into it.
00:27:52.945 --> 00:27:57.580
And so that's a, that's a, a wonderful thing
00:28:00.122 --> 00:28:00.403
Absolutely.
00:28:00.451 --> 00:28:11.457
And I think that's the wonderful thing that we'll leave this episode on, that, you know, it doesn't matter what brings you to reading, reading is a good thing and gaming is a good thing.
00:28:11.510 --> 00:28:17.105
And if you can read and, about gaming, then that's a great thing for everyone.
00:28:18.080 --> 00:28:27.164
last, the last week and a half I have been gaming my ass off while listening to the Belisarius Cawl Warhammer 40K books.
00:28:27.679 --> 00:28:29.219
Ah, awesome
00:28:29.486 --> 00:28:30.114
are the way.
00:28:30.219 --> 00:28:31.231
Just play a game,
00:28:31.402 --> 00:28:32.075
Yes
00:28:32.076 --> 00:28:34.189
audiobook on, then
00:28:34.422 --> 00:28:41.150
I know we're, just gonna bring this episode to an end, but do you struggle when you're listening to an audiobook?
00:28:41.670 --> 00:28:46.458
Does it interrupt your gaming or your game interrupt your audiobook?
00:28:46.486 --> 00:29:00.166
I'm a fan of audiobooks, but I tend to audiobook when I'm doing something quite mindless, and if I'm having to concentrate on a game or, text in any way, then I, I can't do the audiobook.
00:29:00.249 --> 00:29:02.027
So how do you manage that?
00:29:02.257 --> 00:29:08.182
I'd say 95% of the time they, they meld, they meld together perfectly.
00:29:09.259 --> 00:29:16.442
Um, it's just things like cut scenes particularly interesting bits.
00:29:17.133 --> 00:29:19.346
But normally I just...
00:29:19.364 --> 00:29:27.558
It's, it's like having two monitors and just consuming, consuming two things at the same time.
00:29:27.652 --> 00:29:27.803
It's
00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:28.500
Ja.
00:29:28.614 --> 00:29:29.599
that's my favorite thing
00:29:29.861 --> 00:29:30.547
to you, Jem.
00:29:30.547 --> 00:29:42.167
I, I have a podcast on, on radio, uh, on if I'm doing things like embroidery or whatever, you know, stuff with my hands where I don't really have to think about it too much.
00:29:42.451 --> 00:29:45.628
But I can't be doing an- another thing where I have to concentrate
00:29:46.304 --> 00:29:46.723
Ja.
00:29:46.961 --> 00:29:52.311
on, like, what I'm looking at and also use my hands and listen at the same time to something different.
00:29:52.955 --> 00:29:53.256
Ja.
00:29:53.478 --> 00:29:54.547
that quite difficult.
00:29:55.286 --> 00:30:02.167
People are different, aren't absorb things differently, and I'm really glad that you have had a good time doing that.
00:30:02.221 --> 00:30:04.311
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:05.608 --> 00:30:06.176
Brilliant.
00:30:06.243 --> 00:30:07.615
Okay, thank you guys.
00:30:07.625 --> 00:30:11.208
So, um, we are here every Thursday.
00:30:11.236 --> 00:30:20.924
We're currently, streaming Baldur's Gate 3 we're hoping to stream something scary for Halloween if we can persuade Alex to do it.
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:27.029
and so check us out on Twitch and, uh, wherever you get your podcasts.
00:30:28.155 --> 00:30:29.144
Bye-bye