Full Transcript for Henrietta Lacks Episode Five: Get Ready Girl!

00:03:37.759 But we've also been prepping for this show for uh a little while, so it it it took a lot out of us. 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:38.479 Yeah. 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:44.879 By we, I mean mostly Emily, because uh I I just was there giving thumbs up and you were the other one. 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:48.240 I was the other one giving back ribs, giving back ribs, getting coconut waters. 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:53.199 Yeah, but uh yeah, I am excited to wrap this series up. 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.199 I'm excited to get started with my series. 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:55.680 Yep. 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:57.039 So let's go, man. 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:57.759 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:59.599 I guess we should get right right on into it. 00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:02.879 Two coffees, two naps, yeah, and then we're ready to go. 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:07.360 I full disclosure, uh, this probably didn't need to be a five episode series. 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.800 I um reports, but we're gonna wrap it up. 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:12.240 So let's wrap it up then. 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:17.120 And next week we will get into something else. 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.480 Something else, but something exciting. 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:25.759 Um, okay, so last week we talked about some rumors around John Hopkins. 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:37.199 We talked about kind of the darker side of uh the black community's fears about night doctors and scientific testing, going all the way back to some like slave owners uh doing some real spooky stuff. 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.040 Uh that is really awful. 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:39.920 Nothing good, nothing good. 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:40.959 Nothing good there. 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:50.160 Um we also talked about the beginning of the debate around ownership of genetic material and cellular cultures. 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.040 So biological matter began being patentable, and so that kind of opened a whole thing. 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:56.560 It does feel spooky. 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:03.040 Um and uh yeah, we also discussed John Moore who and his 22-pound spleen. 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:08.000 Yes, and his doctor kept demanding he come back to another screening. 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:09.120 Uh yeah, yeah. 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:14.720 He was er yeah, because he was living in like Utah or Seattle, Seattle, Seattle. 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:15.519 You're right, you're right, you're right. 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:16.560 Well, well, look at me. 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:17.759 Um critical listener. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:18.319 There he is. 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:21.439 Uh yeah, so that was great. 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:26.079 And uh the doctor was also enriching himself and becoming like having multimillion dollar deals. 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:33.439 Because that's the thing, and somebody actually commented on our I think first episode on YouTube and was like, I'm a medical student, like I don't see the problem. 00:05:33.600

--> 00:05:38.639 And I'm like, I see where you don't see the problem with the basic premise. 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:43.839 But she also the commenter did say as long as they get consent, which we've talked a lot about, she didn't give consent to this. 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:58.240 And they she would the the poster was talking about like the standard at the time, which yes, but also like yeah, but also I don't think that anybody who holds that opinion has a full understanding of this aspect of it, of the like companies born out of it. 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:04.879 Because I didn't know even knowing what the book was about, knowing the concept of it, being like, oh, you know, these cells, she didn't give consent. 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:17.600 This is the part that's really to me, the podcast aspect of what we're talking about, like creating these businesses without the consent or participation of the people who contributed their body matter is horrible. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:30.879 Yeah, and and you know, it's like we talked a few episodes ago of being like you should go back and just like you know, it's like the sources, like we were like, nobody's ever gonna do that, but uh they should, you know, they should. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:31.680 Yeah. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:51.040 Um, it's just I think that this case in particular, it's just so starkly like uh that's pretty messed up because it because of how big and how important and how massive scale the the manufacturing of of her cells still is, the fact that like you know, her family was still living without being able to pay for healthcare is nuts. 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.639 Yeah, that's really um yeah, compensate people. 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:58.000 Yeah, or crazy, crazy thought, pay them for stuff. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:06:58.800 It could be great. 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:08.399 Like if you're like, oh man, this amount of money feels too good to be true, it probably means you have enough money to give the people that uh you know nobody needs three boats. 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:09.360 Nobody needs three boats. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:10.560 You can convince me you need two. 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:11.759 Yeah, they have different uses. 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:12.240 That's right. 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:13.680 You cannot convince me you need three. 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.079 That no unless one is a kayak. 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:18.319 Yeah, well, you can have a canoe if you want. 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:20.879 That'll sign if you do a little bit of man-powered boats. 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:22.000 You can have as many as you want. 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:22.399 That's right. 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:23.439 If you're the man. 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:24.399 Yeah, if you're the man. 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:25.519 Or a woman or a person. 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.720 How do you feel about sailboats? 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:27.600 Too many sailboats? 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.199 Uh that's wind powered. 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:33.040 But sailboats are immensely expensive to upkeep. 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:33.360 Yeah. 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:33.680 True. 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.199 I mean, most boats are that's what I'm saying. 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:37.759 You don't need three. 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:38.160 That's what I'm doing. 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:41.279 If you want a sailboat and a powerboat, those are your two boats. 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:42.240 Those are your two boats. 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:42.800 There you go. 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:43.680 That's a boat law. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:45.120 You know, you can have a couple of dinghies. 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:45.839 Those are just for fun. 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:46.639 Those don't count. 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:47.199 Those don't count. 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:48.319 Dinghies are not boats. 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:49.519 They float. 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:50.000 Yeah. 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:51.279 They're not ships. 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:51.839 Ships? 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:53.519 But sailboats are not ships. 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.079 Welcome to nautical talk. 00:07:58.879 --> 00:07:59.680 They don't know what they're talking about. 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:04.079 I keep seeing this meme and I really agree with it. 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.920 And it was like, the power problem with liberals is none of us have friends with boats. 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:08.480 Yeah. 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:09.920 Like we don't have the wealth. 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:15.519 And the only people we do know with boats that we've gotten on the boat has been people who were like, my parents own the boat. 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:17.360 Like the Republican, they own the boat. 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:18.319 I don't own the boat. 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:19.519 And it's like, yeah, okay. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:19.920 Yeah. 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:28.879 You did um get invited onto a lot of boats at that like towns, you know, oh yeah, but those people do not vote the way we do. 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:30.959 They certainly do not. 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:31.439 Yeah. 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.120 Uh we do have friends with pools, so I think that's the like the lower. 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:38.720 Same good step, but it's it's it's a tear down. 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:39.120 Yeah. 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:39.759 That's okay. 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:40.480 Yeah. 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:44.639 Um so if you're cool and you have a boat, let us know. 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:45.519 Let us know. 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:51.360 We can talk about, you know, why owning one more boat would probably be a problem. 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:52.080 Yeah. 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:52.879 Yeah. 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.679 Uh they had two. 00:08:58.320 --> 00:08:59.279 Right, that's what I'm saying. 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:02.639 I just assumed that our friend with the boat already had two. 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:03.279 Wow. 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:04.480

Yeah. 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:20.240 Um, okay, so after after talking about this doctor who was, you know, sneakily uh harvesting samples from uh from this guy for like seven years, we talked about the years-long legal fight over the ownership of that cell line. 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:25.600 Eventually, the court ruled that once discarded, a patient no longer has any ownership over uh that matter. 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:30.000 However, they did say that doctors had the responsibility to disclose any financial upside. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:38.639 So uh so even a sample that they the doctor removed for science and said they were gonna discard, but if they used it for money. 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.440 This that law that was okay. 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:42.399 Said it was okay. 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:42.720 Wow. 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.200 And then afterwards that lawsuit was basically like, hey. 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:46.240 So what are we supposed to do? 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.120 Bring Tupperware containers for a doctor's approach, give it all the data. 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:50.320 Excuse me. 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:51.679 I I brought my vacuum sealer. 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:52.159 I would like it. 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:54.000 Give me whatever you pull out of my body. 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:56.240 Yeah, I actually have my personal supply for amaldehyde. 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:57.200 I brought it along with me. 00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:59.919 I've got a creepy jar to store that in. 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:00.399 Yeah, exactly. 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:01.519 Please give me my teeth. 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:02.080 Thank you so much. 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:02.559 Thank you so much. 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:03.440 Thank you so much. 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.519 Uh or give me a million dollars right now. 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:06.960 Yeah, either way, it's fine. 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:07.279 Yeah. 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.440 But the Where's my elbow? 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:10.960 Yeah, I don't know. 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:11.679 We don't. 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:12.240 We'll never know. 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:16.720 Yeah, maybe it's maybe your elbow is out there growing more bone all the time. 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:18.879 It was it it grew some bone. 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:19.840 It did grow some bone. 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:20.159 Pretty cool. 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:21.360 Grew a marble they took out. 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:22.080 I want that too. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:22.399 Yeah. 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:23.039 Where's that? 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:23.919 I don't know. 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:26.000 It's probably cool. 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:51.759 But uh there are so this actual the the uh and we'll get into it a little at the end of this episode, but the um they there are a lot of lawsuits going on right now uh where the estate of Henrietta Lax is suing various pharmaceutical companies that their business model is based around using uh HELA cells, and they've been they've been walking away with some pretty big settlements. 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:58.639 I mean they uh they are completely undisclosed, but I can only assume that they are at least reasonable enough that they didn't they were like this is good enough for us. 00:10:58.799 --> 00:10:59.360 We'll take this. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:04.399 Um But how the the tough thing about all that is is like I want them to get paid. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.559 I want them to get their money because they deserve some money. 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:11.840 However, because it's a settlement, it it doesn't um create any new precedent. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:12.799 There's no justice of the city. 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:17.360 There's no like we're not we're not actually fish fixing the bigger systemic issue. 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:23.039 Like we need to like paying off the most offended person with the most time and resources to fight the problem. 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:32.480 And I don't think I don't think it should be their job to fix, you know, to to like go through the fight of making it to h you know, getting it all the way through all of the courts. 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:47.120 Because once just like we saw with this case, it was like uh the the it finished one way and then they appealed it and it finished the other way and they appealed it again, and then it went all the way up to the California Supreme Court, and that takes years and years and years of money and money and money that you know they didn't they didn't have. 00:11:47.200 --> 00:12:19.519 I mean, now they have more, but um I like I think it's just a thing where it's like it kind of calls upon us as like citizens to actually if we hear somebody trying to make a law to help rectify this or like help make sense of this thing, because I think genetic material ownership, like cell lines, things like that, like the the fact that you can make so much money from genetic material is kind of like the internet, it's kind of like Facebook, it's kind of like social media where we it's moving and changing so fast that we don't know how too hard to legislate. 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:25.600 The forefathers didn't write it into the thing, and and we now have to go back and and kind of work it in. 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.720 And also the American justice system is based on like sue first. 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:29.600 Yeah, yeah. 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:39.840 It's and it's based on like share shareholder uh you know thing above like actual honest, you know, people and and justice and any of that kind of stuff. 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:47.120 Yeah, that's uh one of our one of our uh one of our uh uh recurring soapboxes. 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:48.799 Um what else? 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:53.120 We also talked more about how the family was affected by learning about Henrietta's semi-immortality. 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.440 I mean, I we ended the last episode. 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:57.840 Uh

I was ready for them to storm the gates. 00:12:58.000 --> 00:12:58.559 What are we doing? 00:12:58.720 --> 00:12:58.799 Yes. 00:12:59.200 --> 00:12:59.440 Let's go. 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:00.960 Let's storm some gates. 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:08.320 Okay, so uh our source, once more, The Immortal Life of Henrietta Laxe by Rebecca Sklut, 2010. 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:11.039 And this is the last episode of the series. 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.240 No matter where we are in 90 minutes, we're gonna stop. 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:23.919 I also uh read a bunch of articles about the lawsuits that uh are ongoing that I'm I'm gonna put in the show notes, but uh I'm not gonna list them all here. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.240 Most of them are like Henrietta Lax's relatives, get money. 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:28.960 Good. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:30.960 So yeah, colon, good. 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:39.840 Um, okay, so now that Henrietta's name is out, uh, more and more articles and books begin exploring Gila and the woman behind the cells. 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:46.480 So very few of these reporters and writers discuss any of their writing with the actual family uh of Henrietta. 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:59.759 Uh and either they don't know about them, they don't know that they still exist, like that it's like 50 years later, so the there is an assumption that like, you know, that they just don't have a connection with this woman anymore. 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:04.559 Uh, or uh they just don't really care as much about the human aspect. 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:12.960 Because a lot of the a lot of the books are much more like what the science was doing, like based around the you know, the use of the Gila cells for polio and all that. 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.720 Well, because it's brought a lot of advancements. 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:16.080 So they're talking about the advancements. 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:26.000 And that's what they, you know, that's what they uh uh the people that know most about Gila cells are also the people most interested in uh like scientific testing. 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:27.360 Benefiting from unscientifically. 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:34.799 Because the the the average person uh until like now, until like we've started this has started kind of coming into pop culture in a way. 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:39.440 Uh most people that know about Gila come from it from a science background. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:48.879 So it kind of makes sense, but it's also like there's a lot of stuff that make it into these books that later the the family's like, how did you get those pictures? 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:51.600 And you were clearly reading the medical records. 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:53.919 We never gave you access to those medical records. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.120 How did you get in there? 00:14:55.279 --> 00:15:09.200 Uh, and either that like again, it's like HIPAA didn't exist, and and like there was general sense of ethics around like you know, giving out uh patient information, but uh it was still very nebulous and none of it was on the road. 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.919 It's like any type of thing you're trying to legislate or be the boss of. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.679 Yeah, we have all these assumptions that people just do the quote unquote right thing. 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:18.080 Sure. 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:25.120 That there isn't a law, a rule in place, and also again, it's moving so fast that they can't write these laws and create these rules until they're like, wait a second. 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:28.480 Like the reason there's a sign that says don't pee in the pool is because enough people pee in the pool. 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:29.360 Somebody pee in the pool. 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:30.159 Somebody put that toe to the bottom. 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:33.440 In the bathtub, yeah. 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.840 Yeah, everybody assumed nobody would ever do that, and then somebody did, and they were like, Well, here's the sign. 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:38.480 Here's the sign. 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.559 Stop stop putting pee in our ool. 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:42.960 Yeah, no pee in the ool, please. 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:48.480 And it and that's uh, you know, what we're doing for we need that sign for genetic testing, the pee in the ool sign. 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:55.200 Did you ever um as a kid, did you ever hear the like I actually don't know if this is real and I constantly wonder about it? 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.879 The purple, yeah, the dye in the pool that's gonna show if you peed in it. 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:00.480 Yeah, I don't know if that's real or not. 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:01.600 Because I've never seen it. 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.120 I've seen it, I feel like on there was like a movie or a TV. 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:06.080 Okay, but not in person. 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.279 You better have been in a pool and they're peeing. 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:10.799 Constantly peeing in pools, you know. 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.080 Are you nervous? 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.120 But like people are, and babies and toddlers are like yeah, I feel like I would have. 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.360 I mean, babies and toddlers toddlers totally are. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.039 There's no there's no stopping them. 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:23.679 Literally, those diapers don't work for them. 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:24.159 Yeah. 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:25.279 I'm just confused. 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:25.919 I don't know. 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.919 It gets it feels like a myth that somebody spread to anyone's experienced it, let me know. 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:31.759 Maybe it's a social experiment. 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.279 Sometimes if I'm like a little high in a pool, I'm like, huh. 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:37.120 I I'm not even thinking about peeing. 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.679 I just literally am like, what if I peed a little bit and everyone saw it? 00:16:39.840 -->

00:16:42.639 Like, what if I like what if there's a spot of pee somewhere? 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:44.879 And then you get so scared you pee your pants anyways. 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:45.039 Yeah. 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:46.080 It's like, oh dang it. 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:47.679 It's something I think about more than I'd like. 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:48.480 Yeah, I hear you. 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.519 If I'm being nuts. 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:57.200 In 1985, a book called A Conspiracy of Cells by Michael Gold was published. 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:03.279 The book was about the efforts to stop HELA contamination uh of all of the other cellular cultures. 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:16.880 The book quoted heavily from Henrietta's medical records, and it was inside that book that Deborah, Henrietta's daughter, learned the exact nature of her mother's cancer and like had kind of a more graphic stuff about how her mother passed away. 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:30.480 Because she's like Deborah is is has been like ever since she found out that she was like semi-alive or like part of her was still alive, she's been really like digging into trying to learn more about her mother, right? 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.240 Um, and like find out as much as she can. 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:38.319 So she'll like read these books or read these articles, and then uh she just gets surprised with some really graphic, harsh stuff. 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:51.519 So it's like kind of she wants to learn more about her mother, but she doesn't really like she's looking for like what her favorite color was and and like the things about her mother in these books as opposed to like how excruciating the last days of her life was. 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:58.000 Yeah, and so like to come across that as one of your like primary sources early on was harsh. 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:09.920 Yeah, I mean, anybody who's experienced loss, I'm sure if you were told like, hey, there's all these articles and books you might learn something about the person you lost, you're going to read them, yeah, and then you have to deal with the consequences of it. 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:18.480 Well, and because this is like a medical journal and or a book, you know, that is medical and science-based, they like pretty graphically described the autopsy process. 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.039 And it's just like, Oh, that's very upsetting. 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:22.240 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:27.759 So um that was uh that that was really rough for Deb. 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:29.119 Not bad for Deborah. 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:37.359 Um so after reading that that that part of the book, Deborah broke down for days, imagining all of the pain that her mother mother must have been in. 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:42.960 Um Henrietta's sons up to this point had been pretty mad at like John Hopkins specifically. 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.480 That's specifically where they were pointing their their kind of anger. 00:18:46.559

--> 00:18:48.880 Um, because that's where it all started. 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:54.720 Yeah, it's where it all started, but they also were like, because it's as big as it is, surely John Hopkins made a lot of money from it. 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:56.880 Oh and uh you're right. 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:01.359 You you were saying that they kind of benefited financially the least out of Yeah, exactly. 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:07.839 The because they didn't patent anything, they gave away all the cells, you know, they uh clearly got a fair amount of rep from it all. 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:09.039 Sure, some street pressure. 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:17.839 So they didn't get nothing out of the whole thing, but the the Henrietta's sons didn't really like the the nuance of all of that was kind of be you know beyond their knowledge. 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:22.480 So they're and also how would they know how again all of this is like pretty complicated. 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:24.720 Yeah, I don't understand it right now. 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:41.519 Um also like I I don't know their son specifically, but like it's really whenever we've had these conversations before we had a kid and people would not have time to pursue something or like they didn't really know or whatever, I would always think to myself, like, why aren't they more curious? 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:47.359 Yeah, and now being a parent, and obviously there's so many things that can consume your yeah, right your mind. 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:57.920 I'm not saying that this is like only if you have a kid, but just the mat the the amount of time that we have to just spend being like don't don't run down the stairs, don't like fall off. 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.160 Oh, you're gonna be like, please stop trying to eat electricity. 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:05.440 You lose a little part of your curiosity for a little while, you're just like, I gotta just stay alive. 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:06.799 You gotta let some of that stuff go. 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:16.400 Whatever position you're in that's consuming your brain space, I think sometimes you just get it's like why they talk about politics and like low information voters, because they don't have time. 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:17.519 Like you don't have time, you don't have to be able to do that. 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:27.759 Well, I also like you know, uh I don't want to make this connection too strongly, but like if you're if you're having a hard time making ends meet, like that's that's the same deal. 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.480 Like if you're constantly trying to think about how to make enough money to make it. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:37.759 That you don't have time or or money or ambition to to be like, oh, I I wonder how a clock would be like. 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.640 Let me go to the library and just like look up a steam. 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:41.839 I think it's a lot of it. 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:54.079 My frustration, I think, is the reason why

I say it at all is I feel like a lot of people, like pundits and stuff, will talk about people who don't know things, yeah, and they kind of make it seem like it's it's will for willful ignorance. 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.240 Like they're like, I don't want to know, I'm not curious. 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.160 And it's like, no, we're trying to survive. 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:04.400 Like and like all of you jokers were hired to to do the right thing so that they didn't have to think about it. 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:10.160 Yeah, you were supposed to figure this out so that they could just go to their jobs and go home and raise their family. 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:16.240 Assume that you guys are all have their best interests at heart, even though clearly that's not the case. 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:20.160 No, but we do have a UFC fight on the White House lawn. 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:20.960 Oh, yeah. 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.759 So that'll put a turkey on every table. 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:27.279 It's an AI turkey, though. 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:28.559 So you can't really eat it. 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:42.480 Uh so up to this point, the sons were pretty angry and like kind of like demanding stuff from you know, John Hopkins specifically and writing pamphlets talking about how John Hopkins owed them for so many pamphlets. 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:43.839 A lot of pamphlets. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:52.319 Uh but up to that point, Deborah had always kind of been really um she'd been like, uh, I just want people to know that it's my mother. 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:54.400 Like, uh, you know, I I want she's been doing good. 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.680 Uh like the some people still think it's Helen Lane, some people still think it's, you know. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.000 All of these other pseudonyms. 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.319 Uh, but I just want people to know that it's my mom. 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:05.440 And appreciate who she was. 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:06.640 And appreciate who she was. 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:12.000 But after like reading this book and kind of hearing about how bad it was, she is now also furious. 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:21.759 Uh and uh is now like really wanting to make sure that full credit is given, uh, and that like people know that she didn't donate the cells. 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:34.720 Like it's it's a lot of that kind of like opened a bit of like she's always kind of been she's been very interested in this, but this is like now uh all of her spare time is kind of spent consumed. 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:36.000 Yeah, consumed this. 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.480 So okay. 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:43.759 Um let's talk a little bit about uh some some some science stuff. 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:45.680 We're gonna step away from the family a little bit. 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:52.640 Uh so in 1984, a German virologist named uh Harold Zerhausen. 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:53.359 Sure. 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:54.000 Sure. 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:59.359 Discovered a new strain of the human papillomavirus, HPV 18. 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.559 So he believed that this new strain, along with HPV 16, caused cervical cancer. 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:18.720 After testing it, it was discovered that these two strains of HPV would insert themselves into the chromosomes of the infected uh, you know, of the person, turning off uh the what's called the P53 tumor suppressor gene. 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:19.119 Sure. 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:21.200 Which apparently we got a gene that suppresses tumors. 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.279 And if you turn it off, probably bad. 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:23.759 Not so good. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:24.559 Probably bad. 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:45.519 So he requested a small sample of the original biopsy taken at John Hopkins, and he wanted to see if Henrietta cells contained either HPV 16 or HPV 18, uh, and wanted to make sure that they weren't contaminated in culture over the years. 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:50.640 So he wanted like some of the original uh original sample, which he got somehow, I guess. 00:23:50.799 --> 00:24:01.440 Um so not only did those cells test positive for HPV 18, they were once again like super infected by multiple different, you know, sub-variations of HPV 18. 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.880 She had it like she had it like six times or something like that. 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:16.400 Um so I learned through all of this uh that there are more than 100 known strains of HPV, uh, 14 of them are uh wait, yeah, 14. 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.039 That's what my doctor told me was 14. 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:24.400 14 of which are confirmed to cause cervical cancer, uh anal or penile cancers. 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:25.119 Oh no. 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:25.759 Yeah. 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:35.119 So um today around 90% of sexually active adults become infected with at least one strain of HPV, which is, you know, great. 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:39.039 Uh but again, a lot of them clear on their own. 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:40.480 Your body Yeah, clear on their own. 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:41.680 It it gets rid of it. 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.039 But there are specific strains. 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:49.039 And and 16 and 18 are uh particularly virulent and like dangerous as a as a thing. 00:24:49.279 --> 00:25:02.400 Um so uh Zurhausen and other scientists went on to use Hila to study HPV, discovering how and why it caused cancer, uh, and found a way to block its effects, creating the first HPV vaccine. 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.160 Uh, this discovery would eventually earn Zerhausen a Nobel prize. 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:15.279 Information, cell culturists would eventually learn about different viruses and chemicals that could be introduced in cultures to help create immortal cells in the lab. 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:33.279 So this is one of the one of the ways that like a cell culture that you want to, you know, uh that is like from a natural that isn't

self-replicating on its own in that way, they can get it to self-replicate by giving it, you know, a s a lot of this virus or or a number of other viruses. 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.920 Um Henrietta's cells are still incredibly special. 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:43.839 Uh it's very, very, very rare for a cell on its own to become immortal in the way that Henrietta's did. 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:53.839 So this is it's like still very particularly special and like one specific, like uh so many things had to happen in order to make this make this happen. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:59.519 So kind of speaks to the the like fate of it all is uh is interesting. 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:08.880 Uh yeah, so Zurhausen, you know, and HPV learning about it was uh like a really important step to dealing with cervical cancer, not dealing with it. 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:23.359 But uh, you know, I was talking to Sarah last night and she was saying that like, you know, the the vaccine back then only uh affected the first two, so the the 16 and 18, but it is like uh increasing in number of of what it can actually cover. 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:39.519 So I uh recently had this discussion with a doctor, my doctor, and she was saying that the vaccine only covers two uh of the cancer-causing ones out of 14 and two of the non-cancer counting causing ones out of the rest of the hundred. 00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:40.160 Okay. 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:41.359 And I was like, why is that? 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.839 And she was like, Science doesn't study women? 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:50.960 Like she basically like alluded to that, and it was kind of she was like, we don't really and it but she uh I love this lady. 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.119 We had a great conversation, she drew me a lot of dietary. 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:54.160 Did you tell her about the podcast? 00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:54.960 Maybe she'd be a fan. 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.640 I should have, maybe if I have to go back. 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:10.880 But she um she told me one of the most upsetting things uh about all of this is um back when I was in my 20s, the HPV vaccine started getting more popular, but healthcare only covered it until you were 26. 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:11.440 Oh, okay. 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:13.200 And I missed it somehow. 00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:16.319 I think maybe I turned 26 before, or maybe I didn't have healthcare. 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:19.039 I didn't have healthcare for like a year or two because Obamacare didn't exist. 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:19.519 I don't know. 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:19.839 Whatever. 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:22.480 I didn't I couldn't go to the doctor for a minute, I didn't get the vaccine. 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.960 Then I was 27 and they were like, it's too late. 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.920 You could still do it with money, but there was a period where I think maybe you couldn't even do it. 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:31.680 Now it's offered to 45. 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:33.519 I think you can always ask for it. 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:33.920 Yeah. 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:47.759 But the reason that healthcare made it age 26 is that some man at the vaccine company, I don't think this man, but a different man, said that women should get it by 26 because they should be with their last sexual partner by then. 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.039 Oh, okay. 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:49.359 Yeah. 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:50.880 So that's pretty sexist and weird. 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:51.200 Yeah. 00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.359 And if there aren't, then they get to die. 00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:57.119 They get to get cervical cancer. 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.240 Like, that's just like who uh Yeah, yeah. 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.960 I love those like arbitrary things together by that. 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.039 And that like probably didn't get resolved until the last like five years. 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:10.720 Also, all the other men there were like, Yep, sounds right to me. 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.160 My wife was 25 when I married her. 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:15.200 This seems great. 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:15.680 Yeah. 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.359 Uh HPV can affect everybody, get vaccinated. 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:20.160 Yeah. 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:20.880 Yeah. 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:21.599 That's it. 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:34.799 I mean, there's also like the the polio vaccine being so heavily focused on like on the kids, there's that aspect of it too, where they were just like, get it to the children first, and then like, you know, eventually everyone will be vaccinated. 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.680 But all the people that are like, I could still get polio over here. 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:39.119 If they're like, well, I don't know what to do. 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.160 I didn't know about that. 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:40.559 Yeah. 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:45.920 I mean, I think eventually it did open up, but uh, because of the the epidemic of it all, they were like spending all of the resources. 00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.480 I think that kind of happens with I mean that happened with COVID. 00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:53.359 They were like everybody old and young and sick at first, which is what should happen. 00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:53.839 Right. 00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:58.000 But it is uh it takes a while to make to make them. 00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:01.039 But yeah, short version, get get vaccinated. 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:02.000 Get vaccinated. 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:06.480 And also again, let's just look back through those uh the reasons. 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:06.960 Yeah. 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:16.880 Oh, the thing that that was really um that really un irked me when you told me about this was that like the 26th thing is also has to do with insurance. 00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:18.880 No, they don't pay for like they won't pay for it. 00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.160 Now I think I don't know what's happening now.

00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.279 That was that was 15 years ago, but that's what was happening. 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:37.039 And so of course I'm not gonna spend six hundred dollars at the time on something that doesn't like you that again, a lot of HPV clears your body anyway. 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:38.799 So it's like, Well, I don't have this money. 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:40.400 That is rent at that time. 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.119 That was more than what I was paying for rent in a month. 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:43.599 Right. 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:45.440 That was not money that I had to get a mix. 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.200 Public safety thing of like you could just give them the vaccine too. 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:51.200 Yeah, and then less people will get it. 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:52.400 Yeah, cool. 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:53.759 Wouldn't that be cool? 00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:01.440 My doctor was also very intense, and she was like, at this point in America, cervical cancer shouldn't kill anyone. 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:05.200 Like she was like, we have the resources, like this is very frustrating. 00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:05.599 And I'm gonna do it. 00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:13.279 Well, I wonder whether like so women under 26 could get it over not unless you pay for it out of pocket. 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:17.279 But like, are they do they ensure any men getting this? 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:26.400 Because it's like I understand that many, most men, other than the the ones that get penile and or anal cancer, yes, uh uh are unaffected, but like they're the carrier. 00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:37.920 I know that when you now I'm pretty sure that most medical offices do offer it when you're a parent to teenage boys to just be like, hey, then you can help stop spread it. 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:52.400 And also you don't necessarily know your kid mustn't necessarily know their orientation at that age, but gay men can get um HPV, but it also I think what my doctor told me, but I guess not because that's penile cancer is happening to men. 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.400 But I I thought she'd said that mostly just causes warts for gay men. 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:58.960 So again, an adult might not be like, Let me go get this. 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:06.400 Well, maybe it's it's still maybe I don't know enough about the the other forms of cancer formed by HP, but let us know, and we'll tell the world. 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:09.920 And by the world I mean several thousand people. 00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:11.039 There you go. 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:14.319 Um cool. 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:16.480 Well, learning new things every day. 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:17.200 Every day. 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:18.160 Some of them are bad. 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:19.200 All of them are bad. 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.799 Learn them together with us. 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:24.799 And we just uh, you know, kind of grin through it all, and then it's fun. 00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:25.359 Fun.

00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.000 Then you get an ice cream and you say, just a little treat. 00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:28.960 Just a little treat. 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:30.160 Just need a little treat. 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.359 Okay, so Gila was also used to study HIV. 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:42.319 So normally HIV could only infect blood cells, but they inserted a specific DNA sequence from blood cells into Gila. 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.039 They were just like, I'll just nook that in there. 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:48.400 And then HIV was like, yeah, okay, I'll infect that. 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:59.440 And then they because of how fast HIV or not HIV, uh Hila replicated, they would were able to study the virus at like a much faster scale than they were able to do. 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.160 Like you moved on to HIV or you having a time. 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:03.039 I moved on to HIV. 00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:03.599 Okay, I'm sorry. 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:04.400 I was just like listening to the stuff. 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:05.599 I moved on to HIV. 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:08.079 I uh put you know Zero transitions. 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:09.839 Yeah, zero transitions in there. 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:13.359 I was I was just getting right back into the no transitions, no crowd work. 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:16.319 Just I did say we learn new things every day. 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:19.200 Does that not count as a segue? 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:22.720 You know what? 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.519 You know, just we'll we'll roll back the tape later and check that out. 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:27.119 But I'll do it. 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.640 I edit the video and cut out everything that makes me sound dumb. 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:34.240 Well, if anything makes me sound dumb to you, maybe cut that out. 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:34.880 Nope, leave that in. 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:35.759 Leave that in. 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:37.519 That's fair. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.039 What you were supposed to say was you never sound dumb. 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:41.759 Well, that's right. 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:43.519 And then I would have cut out your stuff for you. 00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:44.799 Could you cut this out? 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.519 And then I'll be like, Emily, you never sound dumb. 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:49.759 So it's probably pretty easy because you don't have to put anything in. 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:55.119 Oh boy. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:56.319 Okay. 00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.920 So uh we're talking about HIV now. 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:01.440 Uh it's a different acronym. 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.160 Different that is also really similar to what you're saying. 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:05.680 You know, dangerous virus. 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:06.240 Yeah. 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:08.880 Um, so this one, HIV. 00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:13.680 Uh again, the the that virus affects blood cells. 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:14.000 Sure. 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:20.559 Uh

HILA is not a blood cell, it's a you know, cervical cell, uh slash cancerous cervical cell. 00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:36.240 And so they tricked the virus into infecting Gila, and that allowed them to do a lot of studying of HIV very fast because you know, because it just kept replicating and they they kept tr testing possible like cures, possible antigen testing things, all of this stuff. 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:56.240 So the the the viruses or sorry, the Gila cells that were infected with this virus actually became kind of a resource because they were able to collect the like antigens from it, allowing them to make a much more uh like accurate antigen test to make sure to see whether anybody had it. 00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:05.519 Uh um it helps, you know, the testing process made it a lot easier because of the they just had a ready source of antigens from from Gila. 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:06.559 So that was good. 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.360 Um we're doing another segue here, hard segue. 00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:12.719 Grinding those gears. 00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:14.000 Grinding the gears, yep. 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:21.840 Uh so in 1996, a BBC producer named Adam Curtis began making a documentary about Henrietta Lax and the Gila cell line. 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.199 Finally, someone was interested interested in the human side of the story. 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:36.480 So they showed up in Baltimore with like a full production team, cameras, microphones, like an army of assistants just like rolled into uh, you know, this small section of Baltimore. 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:45.599 Um at first, Deborah and the family were very excited that someone was finally taking interest in their mother and uh that the whole world would finally get to know the actual story behind it. 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:50.159 Um so there's just hours and hours of footage directly with the family. 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:59.119 Many of it, many of the filmed interviews were taken in front of the home house home house in front of the home house down in Clover, Virginia. 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:06.880 Um so the the place where uh Henrietta like when Henrietta's dad was like, that's okay, I'm gonna drop you off with the family. 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.760 I'm gonna leave you here with her with her grandfather. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:19.440 Um so it's a little strange because uh, you know, most of these people's lives uh was were lived in in Baltimore, but you know what are you gonna do? 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:20.159 What are you gonna do? 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:21.760 Need a nice visual, I guess. 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:22.400 Yeah. 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:32.960 Uh and Henrietta did go back and continue like working, you know, uh the tobacco fields periodically in the in the you know, through those years. 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:39.519 But during the documentary filming, Henrietta was being recognized in Atlanta at Morehouse School of Medicine. 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:42.239 A man named Roland Patilli Patillo. 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:43.280 Yeah, I think that's right. 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:47.039 A man named Roland Patillo, one of George Guy's only black students. 00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.960 Uh so George Guy was that the guy who's the guy the guy. 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:59.440 Uh and uh Roman uh Patillo was uh really wanted to honor Henrietta's contribution to science. 00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:18.000 So he was like, you know, uh was at least had had some direct knowledge of like who uh Henrietta like I don't think she he was there for the the this like he's not that old, he's not old enough to have been there, but he did study under George Guy and and then from there kind of got got more actual direct knowledge. 00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:23.519 So on October 11th, 1996, he organized an annual Gila Cancer Control Symposium. 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:27.199 So that's I I should have checked whether it's happening today. 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:36.239 It has happened multiple multiple times, but he also petitioned Atlanta to name October 11th Henrietta Lacks Day and invited the family down to accept on her behalf. 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:36.960 That's nice. 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:37.599 Yeah. 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:46.400 So Deborah was so excited that her mother was finally going to be recognized and uh that the world was gonna learn about her. 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.039 Um, the trip was a bit of a mixed bag, however. 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:58.079 The family rode down to Atlanta in an RV that Patillo, which I think is kind of fun that he was just like, I rented you an RV to drive on down. 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:06.800 Um and you know, I don't know when RVs were first uh I mean it's not we're talking 1996, so RVs have been around for a little bit. 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:15.679 The BBC film crew that was uh was uh you know learning learning about them just followed them down to Atlanta and like filmed them on the road trip. 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.920 So there's a lot of like road trip footage as well. 00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:19.519 Um we love a montage. 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:20.000 Yeah. 00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:26.400 For the first time, the lax laxes were being treated as celebrities, so they're staying in uh like a fancy hotel. 00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:28.320 People were asking for all of their autographs. 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.880 Deborah gave us that to get their DNA somehow. 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:36.000 I definitely uh the I feel like the family was like looking at them sideways. 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:37.599 Not not, you know? 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:38.559 Not not. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.360 Not not. 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.960 They're they very distrustful for good reason. 00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:43.840 For great reasons. 00:37:44.000 --> 00:38:06.639 Um so Deborah gave a speech, she talked about uh the surprise of the news, like learning that her mother was some part of her mother was still alive, saying that it

was about time that the world knew who Henrietta Lax was, and uh then kind of uh ending her speech by talking directly to her mother and mother and telling her how much she loved her, missed her, and was proud of her, like very uh touching, very touching stuff. 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.719 And she, you know, Deborah made a number of speeches over the years uh for her mother. 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:13.840 Um I just I don't know, I think it's nice. 00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:22.000 Um so after making it back home, the BBC film crew went to Turner Station to talk to the extended Lax family. 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:26.239 Uh there they met a woman named Courtney Speed, the owner of Speed's grocery. 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:35.119 She just so happened to be the co-founder of the Turner Station Heritage Committee, and their mission was to bring attention to black people from Turner Station who had brought good things into the world. 00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:37.199 And she was like, oh, this is a big one. 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:38.320 This is perfect. 00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:56.719 Um, so the the people that living in uh Turner Station up to this point that they had recognized were a former congressman who had become president of the NAACP, an astronaut, uh a man who had won several enemies as the voice of Elmo on Sesame Street from Turnstation. 00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:59.920 Um and now Henrietta Lacks. 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:06.559 So, you know, am I there's a documentary about the Elmo voice man? 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:07.920 Is it Bad Man? 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:12.960 Maybe is it Batman or is it a what I said bad. 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:13.920 Oh, I don't know. 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:22.000 I don't know the flavor of Allegations of sexual impropriety with minors. 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:22.719 Okay. 00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:27.119 So maybe dismissed due to the expiration of the Statue of Limitations. 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:28.480 I don't love that. 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:30.639 I didn't think we liked it. 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:36.960 What else happened? 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:38.800 The cosmic. 00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:48.719 Oh, I forgot. 00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:49.920 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:51.039 Not great. 00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:54.880 I bet they honored him before they found out about the allegations. 00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:56.800 Yeah, I think that's probably true. 00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:58.400 I'm sorry to do derail. 00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:00.719 I just always get a little spidey sense when I'm pretty sure. 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:02.639 Is it this guy Kevin Kevin Clash? 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:03.360 Kevin Clash. 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:04.239 All right, where's Kevin Clash? 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.000 He's not currently elmoing. 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:16.239 Oh crud. 00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:18.079 It's the same guy. 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:18.320 Yeah. 00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:19.199 Yeah, no, it is. 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:19.760 Yeah, same guy. 00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:20.159 Same guy. 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:21.360 I looked it up. 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:22.079 It's right here. 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:22.559 Okay. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.840 Uh yeah, well, uh there you go. 00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:27.840 So there's a you know there's that. 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.519 There's that as well as a as a piece of the piece of the story. 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:32.719 Uh no, it's okay. 00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:36.639 Sorry to add a bummer to this bummer fucking sandwich. 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:41.599 Sorry, I keep bringing bummer fucking sandwiches to the to the table, but you know. 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:43.440 That's all you've had on offer. 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:44.320 Yeah. 00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:47.119 I need uh I need a less bummery of a sandwich. 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:51.679 Also, it seems like you have a lot of pages left, and it's been 42 minutes already. 00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:52.960 Okay. 00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:57.440 Um okay, let's uh let's uh we'll kick on through. 00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:58.639 No, it's okay. 00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:05.599 Um uh Courtney Speed and her other co-founders jumped uh at the news. 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:11.360 So they wrote letters to Congress uh and the mayor's office demanding recognition of Henrietta Lacks' contribution to science. 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:18.800 Pretty soon Turner Station Heritage Committee founded the Henrietta Lacks Health Museum Foundation uh with Courtney Speed as president. 00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:24.559 They planned events, they raised money, they made Henrietta Lacks pens and t-shirts uh with Henrietta's face on them. 00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:34.480 They began raising money uh to uh hopefully build a proper Henrietta Lacks Museum right there in Turner Station, uh, hoping to raise uh seven million dollars. 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:34.960 Wow. 00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:39.920 Um, you know, I don't think they got all the at least early on, they definitely didn't get all the way there. 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:49.840 But um one of their first goals was having a life-sized uh wax statue of Henrietta made that they were like very excited about this as a concept. 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:54.079 First, be like, first of all, first thing, first things first, wax figure. 00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:54.719 Wax figure. 00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:55.760 I think start there. 00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:59.519 Yeah, I mean that one picture, very striking. 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:00.800 So if you waxify that. 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:02.400 I'm not saying don't make it. 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:02.960 I'm just gonna be able to do it. 00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:04.320 Less expensive than a bronze statue. 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:06.559 Fair, yeah, very fair. 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:13.840 Um, so Deborah was not included in the board of the museum, uh, but was asked to come and speak at various events uh honoring her mother. 00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:23.840 At some point, someone suggested

to Deborah that she donate Henrietta's Bible and the locks of her mother's hair and her sister's hair that Henry Deborah had in safekeeping. 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:29.920 Uh they were like, oh, you should donate them to the museum because like what if your house burned down? 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:31.280 They would be destroyed. 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:35.760 Uh but this uh made Deborah so incredibly anxious. 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:37.440 That makes me feel very strange. 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:40.639 And like, first of all, we don't know, I don't know if Deborah has kids. 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.079 Maybe she wants to keep it in the family or give it to a sibling or give it to whoever. 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:45.840 These are the only pieces of her mother's. 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:47.039 But that's what I'm saying. 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:51.599 Like, even if she was gonna donate them, ask her to leave them when she passes. 00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:52.000 Right. 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:58.239 Be like, hey, would you put it in your I don't know how you asked that in a polite way, but like, would you consider leaving them to the museum? 00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:03.199 But to be like, hey, we we'll take them just in case you burn your house down feels crazy. 00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:10.239 I I think I suspect that this is probably like a casual remark made to her of being like, oh, this it'd be cool to have her Bible. 00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:12.239 But if we had that, wouldn't it be nice? 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:14.159 It was like a real turning point. 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:23.039 Uh and uh and for Deborah, like, you know, the she was she got very paranoid about someone trying to come and take them after this moment. 00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:29.119 So she, you know, somebody was just kind of like, oh and she was like, Whoa, what what are we doing? 00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:31.039 You're you're coming for my mother's belongings. 00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:34.000 So she like immediately went ran home and hid them. 00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:43.280 And then uh after that, she kind of like was much more suspicious of the the the like museum foundation generally, of all of them. 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:52.400 And like she uh found out about the bank account and like that was made in her mother's name, uh, and she was you know furious about that. 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:59.760 And she was like, We shouldn't be spending money on big wax statues, we should be spending money, you know, like if if if you're raising money, we should be giving. 00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:05.519 I agree with that. 00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:08.239 So uh healthcare before wax statues. 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.519 I've always said that. 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:18.559 Um Deborah did continue working with Speed and the museum committee, but mostly at this point as a means to an end to learn as much to learn more about her mother. 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:24.559 They were doing more research and learning more stuff,

and she wanted to know those things. 00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:26.159 So okay. 00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:37.360 So the next big blow to Deborah's confidence and this whole process came after she was contacted by a man claiming to be a doctor and a lawyer, and he could help her family get the money that they deserved. 00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:38.880 So this is like a clock. 00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:44.480 Oh yeah. 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:47.280 He called himself Dr. 00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:49.679 Sir Lord Keenan Kester Cofield. 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:50.079 Nope. 00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:50.880 Too many names already. 00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:51.119 Yeah. 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:51.920 Too many names. 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:52.320 Nope. 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:53.199 Immediately no. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:54.719 I've seen what I needed to say. 00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:03.440 So he told Tebra that her and her family needed to copyright their mother's name to protect themselves from fraud, which is he is fraud. 00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:04.880 So if that's why he is fraud. 00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:05.840 Fraud is he. 00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:14.800 And he also said that he believed that Hopkins was guilty of medical malpractice and that they should sue for a portion of all of the money made from the Gila cells. 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:24.159 So Kofiel made the generous offer that the family would pay him nothing but a percentage of what they were able to earn. 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:28.639 So like they didn't pay him anything up front, and that like got his foot in the door. 00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:34.960 So Deborah didn't understand how or why they would, you know, be able to copyright her mother's name. 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:37.920 Uh, but they did believe that they were owed money. 00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:44.880 Her and her brothers believed that they were owed money, and they were like, okay, this seems like a a lawyer that we can afford, and she was motivated. 00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:46.159 So sure. 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.960 So they begin introducing Cofield as the family lawyer. 00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.679 He got to work fast, mostly spending money. 00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.760 Oh wait, he got to work fast, mostly spending his time pouring through the archives at Johns Hopkins doing research. 00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:07.119 Um he would come back to the family and then tell them what he had quote unquote found, conveniently confirming the family's worst fears. 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:13.440 So uh he said that he discovered that one of Henrietta's doctors who treated her was didn't even have a medical license. 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:16.159 Another had been expelled from the American Medical Association. 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:22.960 He told them that the family uh that they had misdiagnosed her mother and may have killed her with an overdose of radiation. 00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:24.079 Oh boy. 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:30.079 So, you know, uh the the the the license thing wasn't real. 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.960 Uh they they you know had their licenses. 00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:44.480 She did uh the the radiation did not help cure the cancer and did uh I'm pretty sure substantively, you know, uh kill her help kill her faster. 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:54.000 But that was also like the way he was painting it, he was basically just telling them what they had kind of assumed about the world uh in order to pull them into his confidence. 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:55.440 Yeah. 00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:11.519 As opposed to ignorantly, like yeah, and like, you know, again, I still I have a lot of um uh uh I do not like how this the the sample cell sampling and all of this stuff was was handled at the time. 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:19.920 But the these these allegations that Cofield was making were specifically to um, you know, it's uh it's like cult stuff. 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:30.880 It's it's like bring bring them into further into his confidence and make only access to real information uh by like feeding into their worst fears. 00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:32.559 Um so not good. 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:45.119 So he started demanding to see Henrietta's medical records um and to further document examples of malpractice for the the upcoming lawsuit that he was you know suggesting. 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:49.360 The medical records were the one thing that he couldn't access without permission at John Hopkins. 00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:51.440 So he needed an ext of kin to get those files. 00:47:51.679 --> 00:48:03.039 Deborah agreed to go with him to Hopkins, but luckily when she rescued uh luckily when she requested the copy of files for Cofield, the copy machine happened to be in need of repairs. 00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:04.960 So they were like, sorry, can't do it today. 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:06.800 We're getting copy repaired. 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:07.840 You know, you have to come back later. 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.440 So Cofield tried to come back on his own to get the documents, but the hospital refused, needing the family member. 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:18.800 Um he tried to push the issue, making this the staff kind of suspicious and kind of leery of him. 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:28.000 So they looked into his background, and far from being a doctor or a lord or a lawyer, it seemed that Cofield was a con artist who made his money by pushing frivolous lawsuits. 00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:38.400 He spent years um behind bars for just other types of fraud, uh, for doing like fraudulent checks and that, you know, counterfeiting checks and things like that. 00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:43.599 So he spent much of his time in jail taking law courses to prep prepare for his next scheme. 00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:54.800 So I mean, anybody what do you think the percentage of people studying law in prisons is to evade the law versus to get their own justice? 00:48:55.119 --> 00:49:01.519 Yeah, I I I would hope that a lot of it is uh is to to to get, you

know. 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:05.199 But if you if you hope that, that means that they were wrongly imprisoned. 00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:05.760 Yeah, that's right. 00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:06.559 So do you hope that? 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:07.840 Well, I guess I don't hope that. 00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:15.599 But I also do know that there are so many people that are uh wrongly uh racial for a very good reason for bias and a number of other reasons. 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:16.000 Yeah. 00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:18.239 Um so that's that's tough. 00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:22.639 And uh I guess 50-50 for shenanigans and for um Yeah, you know. 00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:23.360 I don't know. 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:24.800 Yeah, hard to say. 00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:31.599 So uh while in jail, he sued the jail, the guards, the warden of the prison. 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:35.280 Uh he sued McDonald's and Burger King for contaminating his body with poisons for the biggest thing. 00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:36.480 I mean, we should all do that. 00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:37.360 Yeah. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:45.280 He threatened to sue uh restaurants all over the country for food poisoning, all while he was still behind bars and unable to eat any of that food. 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:48.320 He was just like using a lot of his commissary for stamps. 00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:49.599 Oh, too much of it. 00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:50.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:51.760 He's got some stamp money somewhere. 00:49:52.239 --> 00:50:03.039 Um so he got a local newspaper to run an obituary of him and then immediately sued the newspaper for libel and damages of up to$100, which I think is a bold move. 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:07.039 Also, newspapers are not like I guess the New York Times has money. 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:07.519 I don't know. 00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:11.199 I don't think of newspapers as like the company that you need to get money from. 00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:11.679 Yeah. 00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:14.159 He's you know, he's throwing anything against the wall to see what would stick. 00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:17.360 So his next target was Deborah and the Lax family. 00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:21.119 Uh so he desperately wanted to get his hands on the medical records. 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:30.800 I'm not 100% sure what he was planning on doing with them after the fact because eventually he got to the point where it felt like he was willing to burn his relationship with the family to get these records for the driver. 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:36.079 And then it's like, how do you how do you sue on behalf of them without their involvement and then take the money? 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:37.119 I don't know. 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:41.199 But I've never done law research in a prison, so yeah, no. 00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:41.840 Nor have I. 00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:42.639 What are you gonna do? 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:43.280 Yeah. 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:47.760 Again, some people in there probably doing, you

know, trying to figure stuff up. 00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:48.800 That's right. 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:50.480 Uh Did he do that? 00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:50.960 No. 00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:51.519 No. 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:52.880 He just started taking it. 00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:58.800 But there are uh he did help people learn how to read uh that would then go on to uh get themselves out. 00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:00.000 Yeah, try to get themselves up. 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:00.320 Yeah. 00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:10.159 But he couldn't because uh he was doing crimes for the warden, and so they were right, you know, they they were like, even if you found out that you were you were innocent, I don't care. 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:11.039 Let you leave. 00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:12.960 Yeah, which is why that one guy got unalive. 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:15.280 Yeah. 00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:18.239 Check out Sha Shank Redemption, my favorite movie. 00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:19.760 Weirdly Danny's favorite movie. 00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:21.119 And from when I was a child. 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.920 He has a twinkle in his eye, that's his favorite film. 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:24.960 Yeah. 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:25.760 I don't know. 00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:26.800 I just think it was a good movie. 00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:28.400 Yeah, it's like it was a great movie. 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:31.679 Um so nah. 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.119 And I could go for a Take Me Away. 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:35.599 Yeah. 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:45.760 Um, I also just like a little like scavenger hunt in a rock field in the middle of like California, where you gotta go find a little tiny box from your friend. 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:48.639 Go to the tree and find this note to yeah. 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:49.280 That's nice. 00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:50.000 That's nice. 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:50.880 A red. 00:51:52.159 --> 00:52:03.760 Um so when the staff at John Hopkins learned who Cofield was, they uh took immediate steps to protect the family, barring Cofield from the premises and getting Deborah to sign a document, refusing all access to him for sensitive files. 00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:06.159 So when Cofield found out about this, he was furious. 00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:14.400 He immediately turned around and then started suing the family, suing Deborah, the whole Lax family, uh, as well as a long list of John Hopkins officials. 00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:19.280 So piles and piles and piles of legal documents began ending up on Deborah's door. 00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:20.400 She like panicked. 00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:31.760 Like this is, you know, one, this like the this hopefully silver bullet that was gonna help her family get money and help kind of get to the bottom of some things was clearly uh a fraud and a mistake. 00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:37.360 And now like she was inundated with all of this stuff that she didn't understand and like really stressed her out. 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:46.639 And like like

her the after the Bible thing, like her paranoia and like skepticism of the world kind of ratcheted up. 00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:52.079 And this is like another tick-up on the on the scale of like you know what to do. 00:52:52.320 --> 00:53:05.199 Um so uh she went to Courtney Speed, believing that uh the the woman from the Heritage Society, uh believing that she was working with Cofield to take her mother's records and her belongings from her. 00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:10.320 So she demanded that they immediately turn over any information about her mother and shut down the foundation completely. 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:19.199 Uh by this time, the BBC documentary had aired, and her phone was ringing off the hooks with other reporters and and people demanding for more information about her mother. 00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:27.119 So Deborah decided it was time for her at least to actually see whether mother's records uh held at John Hopkins. 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:28.239 So she went there to get a copy. 00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:31.039 While there, the staff at John Hopkins told her not to worry. 00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:38.320 They were going to fight Cofield on her behalf as well as uh theirs and would make sure that he never got access to her mother's records. 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:39.039 And they did do that. 00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:46.559 They they like so like the family, as as far as I know, didn't didn't pay legal fees to kind of deal with Cofield stuff. 00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:47.519 The hospital kind of did that. 00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:48.719 Well, that's uncovering that. 00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:59.280 John Hopkins as an institution um does not want to get pulled into this like as a storyline. 00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:02.159 They don't want their their name kind of kind of dragged into it. 00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:10.239 But there's so many people within John Hopkins that want to like over the years want to honor and help and and kind of protect the Lax family. 00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:16.079 So like there are a lot of like you know pieces of it that um I think are really really nice. 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:20.639 And but as an institution, John Hopkins was like no comment, which I think is kind of rough. 00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:23.360 But yeah, there's somebody in some office being like, don't talk to them. 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:24.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:32.400 So um yeah, eventually the cases were all finally dismissed, but the whole affair really left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. 00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:47.360 So before Cofield had uh, you know, but started suing John Hopkins, there were some people within the hospital that were trying to properly honor their contributions at John Hopkins, but that all got like when this all started happening, when it really blew up, they were like, we're gonna scrap that. 00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:51.280 And they never went back to that as an idea, as far as I know. 00:54:51.519 --> 00:55:08.000 Um Deborah really couldn't shake the paranoia, so she believed that like Cofield or one of his agents would show up any day to steal her mother's records or her Bible or uh maybe even her own cells to see whether they were useful in like scientific testing. 00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:09.519 Like it all feels possible. 00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:12.960 I know that we're tell saying she's paranoid, but she has fantastic reasons. 00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:14.480 Yes, fantastic reasons. 00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:28.719 And I just think that like you know, uh the the there were a lot of like myths and things about about doctors and and science and all of this stuff that were damaging and dangerous to you know the black community and specifically the Lax family. 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:34.719 And like after you learn that your mother is somehow still sort of alive for 50 years, you're like, what is true anymore? 00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:39.599 Literally what's real because that sounds like science fiction, also like it all yeah. 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:45.039 And then on top of that, you start getting like con artists kind of getting into the mix and kind of stir stirring everything up. 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:46.880 It's just like, oh boy, trust no one. 00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:59.920 I like I I I feel very strongly for for Deborah and the the whole family, but like um the the book focuses a lot around Deborah because her and the author became incredibly close. 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:00.320 Yeah. 00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:04.400 Uh and like they kind of work together to to uncover a lot of these things. 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:21.760 Um, but they their whole relationship the entire time was was a a it would vacillate very quickly between like full trust and real excitement about like the the the chase of learning more information about her mother and her uh her older sister who is is part of this story as well. 00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:27.199 Um but then she would like all of a sudden be like, wait a minute, are you one of Cofield's people? 00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:28.719 Are you here for my mother's records? 00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:31.760 Like it's all kind of really tragic. 00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:38.320 And also all of it led to Deborah's like anxiety being incredibly high, her blood pressure being incredibly high. 00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:51.440 She, you know, did eventually suffer a stroke and and have like uh it's she had a very hard, you know, hard part of all of this, and a lot of it was because of the distress and anxiety that uh she felt. 00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:55.280 I mean, also her childhood was not yeah, it was also very hard. 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:15.039 So a few weeks after she got back from that she was able to leave the hospital from that event was when uh Roman Patillo, the the guy who started the the Gila convention, he got contacted by uh a woman who wanted to write a book about Henrietta Lax. 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:19.679 Uh, and that was no none other than uh

Rebecca Sklut, the author of our source material. 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:20.559 There you go. 00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:36.000 So again, I wouldn't normally talk so much about the author of one of these books because uh you know they're not normally as like part of the story in the way that that she is, but I feel like she had substantive contribution to like Deborah's journey and the story in you know as a whole. 00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:44.079 So the author first learned about Henrietta Lacks in 1988 while taking a college biology course at a community college to get high school credit. 00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:47.760 So she was uh uh you know trying to get some. 00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:56.800 I think there was something weird where she like didn't pass a class in high school, so then she did summer school to, and in order to get that class, she like went to a community college. 00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:10.239 Uh, and she was so she was 16 at the time, at a, you know, uh listening to a professor lecture and began speaking about cancer and cancer research, and he told the class one of the most important advances in medical science was the discovery of the Gila cell line. 00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:17.519 He told them all about the Gila cell line, how uh it was used in science, and that it came from a young black woman named Henrietta Lacks. 00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:27.360 Um, the professor talked a lot about like the science of it, about the polio, about all those things that we've already kind of kind of talked about, but there was almost nothing about Henrietta herself. 00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:30.400 And Rebecca stayed after class wanting to know more. 00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:34.320 Uh, but the professor told her very sadly that not that much was known about her. 00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:46.079 So from there on, Sklut went on to get a biology degree and then a graduate school degree for writing, hoping to become a uh reporter specializing in like scientific journalism. 00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:49.760 Um, all the while the idea of like Henrietta Lax never really left her mind. 00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:57.920 So in her spare time, she would continue doing more research on her, eventually uh getting the idea to write a book that was a biography of both the cells and the women that came from. 00:58:58.159 --> 00:58:58.880 There you go. 00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:11.039 Um so the fact that they she heard Henrietta Laxe's name at all was was something of a miracle because even though it was like well known uh by that point, it was not consistently known. 00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:15.440 Yeah, consistently taught, it's probably not wasn't in curriculums necessarily. 00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:16.559 Yeah, exactly. 00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:24.159 Um and it was still common in textbooks for it to be the you know the the the fake name that they created to kind of hide the family. 00:59:24.239 --> 00:59:26.880 So I always forget the textbooks are just simply not updated. 00:59:27.440 --> 00:59:28.800 Simply not updated, no. 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:37.840 Um so eventually years later, Sklut stumbled upon uh a collection of scientific papers from a Gila cancer control symposium held at Morehouse College. 00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:46.000 She then contacted the organizer of the symposium, Roland Patillo, uh, and asked him what he knew about Henrietta Lax. 00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:54.719 She told him she was writing a book about her, uh, and he quickly told her that the Lax family would not talk to her because of the difficult time that they had with the press and the Gila cells. 00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:55.119 Yeah. 00:59:55.280 --> 01:00:05.599 Um too excited though that she finally found like a real connection that was that he clearly knew the family and was asked, anyways, whether he could he could put her in contact with her. 01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:07.760 He uh said he could, but he wouldn't. 01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:12.480 So not until he made sure that she was like her intentions were good and that she wouldn't hurt the family further. 01:00:12.800 --> 01:00:14.639 I mean, that's nice of him to just want to be. 01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:16.880 And he did like days of grilling. 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:22.000 He basically was like, got her on the phone and was like, what do you know about uh about uh the Tuskegee event? 01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:25.679 What do you know about like um the forced sterilizations? 01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:32.159 He was like really went through all of it because he was like, I can tell by your name and your voice that you were a white woman, and she was like guilty as charged. 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:36.000 I was gonna ask, I didn't know how to ask, but I was like, I need to know, yeah. 01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:40.800 Um so uh yeah. 01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:42.320 Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. 01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:56.559 Patello finally agreed to put Rebecca in contact with with Deborah, but he warned that because of the Gela Cell lawsuits and and all of the press attention and all of these things that happened, uh, Deborah had been recently hospitalized and nearly had a stroke. 01:00:56.639 --> 01:01:06.320 So he gave her a strict list of guidelines to follow when talking to Deborah, mostly about being compassionate to the woman and not talking down to her because she hated being talked down to, have patience with her. 01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:21.119 She also uh is uh somewhat deaf, um, which is like a thing that a lot of the Lax family has, and it's feels like it's a genetic thing that comes from probably two cousins uh you know having having kids together together, perhaps. 01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:31.360 Also, there was a lot of uh you know, the effect of syphilis in like you know, babies and and and children could lead to uh partial deafness. 01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:32.159 Partial deafness. 01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:33.360 So that was also a big thing. 01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:35.280 And they didn't get hearing aids for a very long

time. 01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:37.760 Like they didn't even get t their hearing tested for a very long time. 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:40.719 So um because I couldn't afford it. 01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:43.599 Yeah, yeah. 01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:49.199 Um so Rebecca thanked him profusely, calling Deborah the next day. 01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:53.360 At first, Deborah was confused and then cautious, and then she opened up fully. 01:01:53.519 --> 01:02:04.079 She was like so excited to talk about her mother, and she was excited that somebody was finally wanted to like focus on her mother and not, you know, all of this other stuff and uh get the real story behind it. 01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:11.920 So she talked excitedly for about 45 minutes, not taking any breaks at all for Rebecca to and Rebecca was just like frantically uh scribbling things down. 01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:18.239 Um that more than anything, she wanted to learn about her mother and what she had done for science. 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:22.159 And uh she never got to know her mother and was defer desperate for information. 01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:35.920 So she told Rebecca that she had her work cut out for her, and then she abruptly had to go, telling her uh that to call her back on Monday, you know, she got some mail in it was probably a pile of these uh, you know, of legal documents and it stressed her out, and she was like, I gotta go. 01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:36.480 Yeah, I can't. 01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:37.840 Um can't be doing this. 01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:46.559 But then uh So Rebecca called back that Monday, but it was like she was talking to a completely different person. 01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:49.440 So Deborah seemed exhausted, possibly sedated. 01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:51.360 She said no interviews. 01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:56.880 Uh if Rebecca wanted to know more, she would have to get permission from her her her brothers and her father. 01:02:57.199 --> 01:03:02.719 Uh they they then she gave Rebecca their phone numbers and then hung up. 01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:08.400 And um Rebecca wouldn't talk to Deborah again for nearly a year. 01:03:08.639 --> 01:03:19.119 Um, so she just like followed a very loose path of breadcrumbs that would eventually lead back to her, but uh she had to like go travel through Henrietta's like entire past first. 01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:21.599 So she started calling all of those numbers. 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:28.960 Um those numbers, but no one answered. 01:03:29.039 --> 01:03:34.000 After a few days, someone finally picked up uh at Henry and uh Henrietta's husband's house. 01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:41.840 But after eventually being connected with Day, um he gave her almost no information and then hung up on her, telling her to leave him alone. 01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:49.119 After her conversation with Day, Sonny Lax, one of Henrietta's sons, finally called her back saying that he was tired of seeing her number on his pager. 01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:50.480 He was like, just

what do you want? 01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:51.119 What do you want? 01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:51.920 What do you want? 01:03:52.159 --> 01:04:00.000 Uh he agreed to meet, but once Rebecca made the trip from Pittsburgh to Baltimore, Sonny never showed up uh at their meeting and didn't return any of her calls. 01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:10.000 So, not wanting to waste the trip, she looked up an old article she had read listing Henrietta's Turner Station address and then decided to go there and start knocking on doors to see, you know, who's around. 01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:19.360 So the article that had the address also quoted a local woman named Courtney Speed uh and talking about her dream of starting the Henrietta Lacks Museum. 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:21.519 So she decided to start at Speed's grocery. 01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:24.400 But once she got to Turner Station, uh she couldn't find it. 01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:25.280 She couldn't find anything. 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:29.519 I mean, even Turner Station itself was like not on a map. 01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:32.159 Like it just there was there was something that happened with it. 01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:37.599 Yeah, it was basically like in every atlas, it was in the crease in the middle, and you could never find it. 01:04:37.760 --> 01:04:42.880 It was one of those things that were like felt almost like a conspiracy that was like, no one's ever gonna find Turner Station. 01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:55.280 Yeah, and then you had to go through a like spooky, uh like gauzy kind of fog, and then you pop in there and you're like, huh, what do you know about Henrietta Lack? 01:04:57.840 --> 01:04:59.199 We've only seen the first two episodes. 01:04:59.280 --> 01:04:59.760 I don't actually know. 01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:00.400 We enjoyed it. 01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:01.519 So far, we're good. 01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:10.480 Um so she drove around town for like multiple times, just like looping around, and everybody was like, that crazy white lady. 01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:11.360 What is she doing? 01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:13.440 Insane white lady in a rental Honda. 01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:20.159 Eventually, she stopped at the new Shiloh Baptist Church, one of the bigger churches in in the middle of the town. 01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:26.880 Uh and she was just like peering in through the windows, and then like uh the reverend just showed up and like, how can I help you? 01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:28.239 What do you want? 01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:32.159 She uh asked him about Henrietta Lacks, and he was like, I don't know who that is. 01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:33.840 Never heard of her, couldn't couldn't help you. 01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:37.360 But then she asked about speed, and she was like, Oh, I know speed, yeah, I'll take you on over there. 01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:41.119 Yeah, and took her, took her back to the grocery that which was unmarked. 01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:53.039 Um Speed was pretty suspicious of Rebecca at first, demanding to know

uh who sent her, why she was really there, uh thinking that she was sent by Cofield to weasel more information out of her. 01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:59.760 So after showing her the like crumpled up article that, you know, had it was like, I just I'm looking to learn more about Henrietta Lacks. 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:00.719 Your name is here. 01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:02.239 I d I don't know what to tell you. 01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:14.000 Um she got so uh Speed then was like she got a little nicer, but she was basically like, I I can't tell you anything unless you get approval from from the family. 01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:21.360 Because like I think Courtney Speed really uh did duh I don't know if so long. 01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:44.159 Uh she really was motivated to like the the Henrietta Lax Museum was a passion project that she like still kind of held on up to this point where uh Rebecca was talking to her and like really wanted the world to know more about Henrietta, but also like because of the Cofield thing, she was like on such rocky ground with the family that she was like unwilling to not to kind of risk it at all. 01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:55.360 Um so the one thing that she did do uh was give her a copy of the BBC documentary made about Henrietta that uh uh that Rebecca had been trying to find for months but couldn't find. 01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:56.639 So I didn't realize it was. 01:06:56.719 --> 01:07:00.880 I mean, I guess it's before the internet really is showing movies. 01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:09.360 So uh she basically was like, took her to a place where she could watch the movie, was like, watch it two times, leave that movie in there, you write down your notes and then get out of here. 01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:09.840 Okay. 01:07:10.079 --> 01:07:16.800 So um the documentary interviewed a lot of Henrietta's family, including her cousins. 01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:21.199 So since the immediate family wouldn't talk to her, Rebecca decided to go to Clover and meet the cousins. 01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:21.519 Sure. 01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:24.239 So she's you know, really dozens of cousins. 01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:27.360 So she's really like doing like an odyssey to make her way back to her. 01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:28.159 It's a lot of legwork. 01:07:28.719 --> 01:07:28.960 Yeah. 01:07:29.360 --> 01:07:32.719 Henrietta's cousin Cliff took her to the homehouse. 01:07:32.800 --> 01:07:35.679 She was like, Oh, you uh you want to know about Henrietta? 01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:37.039 Let's we'll go to the home house. 01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:38.960 Then we went it took her to the grave. 01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:46.000 Uh, he told her that the exact grave was unmarked and she knew she was buried near her mother, so it's just like somewhere roughly around here. 01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:53.119 But um from Cliff, Rebecca learned that the the basically the whole family history. 01:07:53.199 --> 01:08:03.199 And she she continued to kind of come back to Clover multiple times, talking to different members of the family, really like kind of um putting in the work, putting in the work, learning as much as possible. 01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:14.400 Uh every few days, uh, she would send, like whenever she w left, basically, left Clover, she would send Rebecca or no, she would send Deborah messages telling her about what she had learned. 01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:15.599 She was like, Hey, I'm in Clover. 01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:16.079 I met your cousin. 01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:19.520 She says, Hey, this is these are the things that I learned about your mother. 01:08:19.600 --> 01:08:20.720 Isn't that cool? 01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:21.279 Interesting. 01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:22.079 Interesting. 01:08:22.319 --> 01:08:27.439 Um, partially to lure Deborah back, but I think partially also to like as a as a show of goodwill and a show of the city. 01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:28.800 Yeah, but it was like, I'm I promise. 01:08:29.199 --> 01:08:30.720 I am trying to learn about her. 01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:38.640 Um so eventually, after nearly a year of silence, Deborah called her back abruptly saying, Fine, I'll talk to you. 01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:39.760 Two conditions she had. 01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:49.680 One is that she needed to make sure that everybody knew who Henrietta Lax was, uh, convincing everyone that the Helen Helenly was made up and have them like never speak that name again. 01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:52.880 Uh and five children, not four. 01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:57.600 Uh, and Rebecca needed to help Deborah find out what happened to her older sister. 01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:00.079 Um, she ended the call by saying, get ready, girl. 01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:01.920 You have no idea what you've gotten yourself into. 01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:04.399 I'm gonna start adding every phone call like that. 01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:06.079 Yeah, get ready, girl. 01:09:06.800 --> 01:09:08.640 Yeah, that'll be fun. 01:09:08.880 --> 01:09:12.640 I uh I'm assuming all of our conversations will phone conversation will in that way too. 01:09:12.800 --> 01:09:13.600 Yeah, get ready, girl. 01:09:13.760 --> 01:09:14.079 I love that. 01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:16.079 No idea what to get yourself into. 01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:24.079 But yeah, because the because you know, uh her older sister had been like kind of committed pretty young. 01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:25.840 Yeah, like a lot of people didn't know about it. 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:32.880 Like they didn't even like uh Deborah didn't even know she had an older sister until she saw it in the medical records, which is like crazy. 01:09:33.039 --> 01:09:34.239 So this woman. 01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:34.880 I know. 01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:38.079 She's really stoof. 01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:42.000 Yeah, she's she's been through a lot, but yeah, she's a tough lady. 01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:46.479 Um so Deborah and Rebecca finally met in person once, or no. 01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:49.359 Uh Deborah and Rebecca finally met in

person in Baltimore. 01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:51.279 Rebecca brought a small gift with her. 01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:59.520 She had been talking to John Hopkins researcher named Christoph Langhauer, who had read one of Rebecca's articles and contacted her. 01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:05.359 He said that he'd been working with Gela cells his entire life and uh couldn't get the story out of his mind. 01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:13.680 Uh as a student, he had developed a technique called fluorescence in situ hybridization, aka fish, which is fish is way easier to say. 01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:14.000 Yeah. 01:10:14.239 --> 01:10:21.439 Uh so scientists would apply fluorescent dyes to different chromosomes and then they would fline brightly under ultraviolet light. 01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:27.920 This allowed scientists to better see what happened inside each chromosome, but from the untrained eye, it just looked very pretty. 01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:39.279 You know, it was uh, you know, so a Langhauer had used fish on some Gila cells and then sent photos of the chromosomes to Rebecca as kind of like a piece of art to be like, if you meet the family, give this to the family. 01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:40.720 Yeah, this is a thing I would like to do. 01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:51.359 Um so Deborah excitedly examined the gift, wondering uh about how beautiful it was, and was like very excited to have this as a piece of her mother. 01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:53.039 Um so they started talking. 01:10:53.199 --> 01:10:55.439 Deborah under Yeah. 01:10:55.760 --> 01:10:56.000 Yeah. 01:10:56.239 --> 01:11:07.840 Deborah's understanding of what happened to her mother was uh a mix of good information with a flair of science fiction and like kind of uh you know, her own interpretations of what she was hearing in in the news. 01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:12.319 So uh yeah. 01:11:13.920 --> 01:11:19.279 Just like we talked about earlier, where like once she learned that her mother's cells were alive, like anything kind of became possible. 01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:25.439 So like and a lot of these news articles were like flashy and like uh misleading and kind of confusing. 01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:35.199 So she had heard of British scientists cloning Gila cells and uh believed that that meant that like there were just hundreds of copies of her mother walking around London at all times. 01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:35.600 Oh my god. 01:11:35.840 --> 01:11:38.079 And was kind of talking to Rebecca a lot about all of this stuff. 01:11:38.319 --> 01:11:46.560 And then when Rebecca was like, that's not what happened, then like she she showed her all of the reasons why she believes that it was true and was like, You're the naive one. 01:11:46.720 --> 01:11:46.960 Wow. 01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:50.800 Which like I I totally support and understand where she's coming from. 01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:51.279 Wow. 01:11:51.439 --> 01:11:57.680 But um But she no, it just shows the level of like confusion and like well and like how little information that like was given. 01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:11.680 This is all of these other reporters, there were some of them that gave the family some information, but like Rebecca was like, Oh god, let's like we gotta like uh try to give you as much of this stuff as as you can and kind of help interpret it all. 01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:32.079 But there was also like Deborah heard about the the the splicing between like uh animals, like the mouse man, the mice man, and the plant cells and all of this other stuff, and was like, oh god, there's like weird uh monsters out there that are half my mother, and like that she got shot into space, and that she was like uh given all of these illnesses. 01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:35.199 That movie, I didn't see it, so maybe I'm completely incorrect. 01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:36.560 But Mickey 17. 01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:38.479 Yeah, like they've Mickey 17 to her. 01:12:39.119 --> 01:12:41.680 She just thinks her mom is experiencing pain every day. 01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:47.920 Yeah, that is that is she's that is not out of the realm of possibilities for what what Deborah was was worried about. 01:12:48.159 --> 01:12:56.079 And like she also like was worried that even though her like mother was not alive, that she could still feel this stuff happening to her. 01:12:56.239 --> 01:13:08.720 Because it like Deborah and the whole family is very religious, and they like have an interpretation of of the way that like you know her mother uh embodies her spirit kind of embodies this whole story. 01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:27.439 Because, like we talked about, there were a lot of moments that are like really weirdly coincidental, like the the the one reporter, his like car breaking down on the way in and like him almost dying, his like all of his records being burned, the the like heel contamination, the Turner Turner station being like hidden from the world. 01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:35.039 Like all of this stuff is like, you know, they they're like, This is this is like don't turn your back on Henrietta because she's she's a tough lady and she'll get you. 01:13:36.079 --> 01:13:54.239 Uh but um it's just like a lot of that kind of stuff where she did have some some very very good and and factual information, but then a lot of like worries and fears that were really kind of blown blown up because she didn't really have anybody to bounce her ideas off of because her brothers were not like her brothers and her father really didn't want to talk about it anymore. 01:13:54.479 --> 01:13:56.880 They were like, We've heard enough, we don't want any more of this. 01:13:57.039 --> 01:14:02.239 Uh like unless you're talking about us getting money from from these people that took from us, then that's all I want. 01:14:02.319 --> 01:14:06.560 So it's just kind of like an echo chamber of she's learning more things, but only little pieces of it. 01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:24.880 So um so slowly but surely over the years that this is this is

happening, the like um distrust between the the like fits of d distrust between the women start decreasing. 01:14:25.039 --> 01:14:30.000 Um the the two got very, very close. 01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:38.640 Um like Deborah used to call her like my researcher, and whenever like one of the other family members would talk to me and be like, don't you try to take my research, my, my like my reporter. 01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:39.680 She that she's with me. 01:14:39.840 --> 01:14:40.159 She's mine. 01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:42.880 She's my and then sometimes they would go out together. 01:14:42.960 --> 01:14:54.319 Uh like I don't think I don't think ever actually, but they uh Deborah refused to like ride in the same car with her because she was still like part of her was still worried that she was gonna get like kidnapped or something. 01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:54.880 Oh wow. 01:14:55.039 --> 01:15:00.239 So they they would always drive in separate cars, you know, uh wherever they were going behind each other wherever they were going. 01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:04.479 But every now and then she would she would show up like dressed, like Rebecca wore a lot of black. 01:15:04.560 --> 01:15:10.079 Uh just and she would like Deborah would show up and she was like all in all in black and was like, look, I got my reporter uniform on. 01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:11.760 Let's go find some news and let's go be better. 01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:13.119 I love this lady. 01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:18.479 Rebecca took Deborah and her brother brother uh Zachariah. 01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:25.920 So his name, he changed his name from from Joe to Zachariah uh after that that kid. 01:15:26.000 --> 01:15:28.479 He was the the Did they pr it's pronounced? 01:15:29.039 --> 01:15:31.840 It is because it's written uh Oh right, you listen to your books. 01:15:32.079 --> 01:15:32.800 I was like, are you sure? 01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:33.520 No, no, no. 01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:38.560 It and and it's but it's very specific that it's Zachariah because uh a lot of people try to call him Zachariah. 01:15:38.720 --> 01:15:40.239 Yeah, it's like that is not my name. 01:15:40.399 --> 01:15:40.720 Huh. 01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:42.479 Uh and he changed his name specifically. 01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:48.720 It was like I'm uh he uh took on, you know, uh uh he had a very tough life. 01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:51.520 He was um got into a lot of fights young. 01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:55.359 He was the the um the youngest child. 01:15:55.600 --> 01:16:02.159 So this the son that was born while Henrietta like had uh you know the the the the cancer kind of growing. 01:16:02.399 --> 01:16:11.199 Um and uh got in a lot of fights as a kid and then went off to like fight in the war and then was dismissed because he was too violent and then got home. 01:16:11.359 --> 01:16:11.600 Wow. 01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:14.880 Uh he ended up killing someone and then going to jail. 01:16:15.039 --> 01:16:16.560 Oh wow uh and then getting out. 01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:33.039 It was like that the the the man that he killed was threatening to kill him, but it was it was pretty premeditated and and kind of um uh anyways, the the again the whole family, the whole all of the children had a very, very hard life. 01:16:33.279 --> 01:16:39.279 And uh this the he kind of turned a lot of things around while in prison. 01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:48.399 He you know, once he got out of jail, he was he was much more um uh uh more measured, but he was still prone to you know aggression. 01:16:48.800 --> 01:17:04.960 So like the Rebecca and and uh uh Deborah, like he they they brought her brought her over to meet uh Zachariah, and like it was it was tense and uh the the multiple times that they talked, it was hard. 01:17:05.119 --> 01:17:09.439 Um, you know, it was it was clearly like he did not trust her and did not did not want to trust her. 01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:19.840 But this trip was actually kind of a turning point for them because uh Rebecca took Deborah and her brother to John Hopkins to meet Christopher Langhauer and see her mother's cells in person. 01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:28.720 So they the he had that that was another thing uh Langhauer had had kind of offered was like, hey, I'd like to show them Pila and I'd I'd like them to see it. 01:17:28.800 --> 01:17:34.239 So and he was the one that made that um the kind of picture of the chromosomes under the fluorescent light. 01:17:34.319 --> 01:17:43.119 So they went there and like saw um, yeah. 01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:51.439 He they went there and just got to see you know what was left of their mother and see how it was used and really kind of talk about it and see all of the different uh things. 01:17:51.840 --> 01:17:53.680 Um I heard a baby. 01:17:53.920 --> 01:17:54.239 Yeah. 01:17:55.039 --> 01:18:01.279 So he also told uh Deborah and uh Zachariah that he believed that John Hopkins had screwed up. 01:18:01.439 --> 01:18:09.439 He he thought that they should have never hid the origin of the cells, that they deserved a piece of the profits, and that he worked at John Hopkins uh wait. 01:18:09.680 --> 01:18:18.880 He worked at John Hopkins, who didn't own any of the rights to Gila, but he still believed that the massive biotech companies that owned the Lax, you know, owed the Lax family money for their contribution. 01:18:19.039 --> 01:18:35.119 So um he also assured both children that he knew what caused Henrietta's cancer and that it wasn't genetic based, that it was caused by the you know multiple variations of HBV and that they didn't need to worry about getting the same cancer that killed their mother. 01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:43.840 And that was like a huge relief because Deborah was was constantly worried that she was gonna like all of a sudden, you know, turn around and have the same cancer. 01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:52.640 So um uh her blood pressure once again spiked and and she was like sent back to the hospital worrying that she would have a

stroke. 01:18:52.880 --> 01:19:02.800 Um so then Rebecca had to kind of do a lot of the research from that point on by herself, but she just kept calling back and like giving giving Deborah more updates and more information. 01:19:04.399 --> 01:19:28.399 So uh Deborah was asked to speak at a like a really big um convention that uh was gonna honor her mother, and like again, it was another another place was like uh like I think it was maybe nationally trying to become a uh Henrietta Lax Day, or or at least a you know bigger communities, I don't remember exactly. 01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:34.479 But uh the that was like her doctors were really worried about the speech, but Deborah felt very passionately about it. 01:19:34.720 --> 01:19:36.159 Yeah, she was like, I'm gonna make this speech. 01:19:37.039 --> 01:19:41.600 And um that speech was scheduled for September 11th, 2001. 01:19:41.920 --> 01:19:43.039 Oh boy. 01:19:43.199 --> 01:19:44.000 Yeah, yeah. 01:19:44.800 --> 01:19:48.239 So uh needless to say, uh the speech did not happen. 01:19:48.640 --> 01:19:52.800 The convention uh was was postponed uh and indefinitely. 01:19:53.119 --> 01:19:58.800 Um and that was like that was a big kind of a blow for for Deborah. 01:19:58.960 --> 01:19:59.920 She was really depressed about it. 01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:04.079 But it also like again, it's just like this this story feels like a forest gump. 01:20:04.159 --> 01:20:08.720 You know, it's just like everything is everything that could happen is happening is connected. 01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:11.600 And if you wrote it as a movie, you'd be like, that's not real. 01:20:11.840 --> 01:20:14.000 Yeah, but it is real, yeah. 01:20:14.479 --> 01:20:32.000 So sadly, uh on the Sunday morning, five days after uh the 9-11 attack, Deborah went to church to pray at uh a conference to be wait, to Deborah went to church uh to pray that the conference that she was gonna speak at was gonna be rescheduled. 01:20:32.159 --> 01:20:39.199 Um and then during the sermon, she slumped in the pew and was unable to move her arm. 01:20:39.359 --> 01:20:43.119 So um the the like worried about stroke happened. 01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:47.039 Uh she ended up living for another like ten years. 01:20:47.199 --> 01:20:50.319 Um, but she was, you know, uh not going on adventures anymore. 01:20:50.479 --> 01:20:52.159 Yeah, not going on adventures anymore. 01:20:52.479 --> 01:21:07.279 Um but uh eventually, you know, again, nine years after after the stroke, uh she finally succumbed to complications related to a heart attack in May of 2009. 01:21:07.520 --> 01:21:09.039 She died at 59 years old. 01:21:09.760 --> 01:21:10.159 Oof. 01:21:10.479 --> 01:21:10.720 Yeah. 01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:12.319 That's far too early. 01:21:12.720 --> 01:21:13.279 Yes. 01:21:13.520 --> 01:21:14.079 Yes. 01:21:14.319 --> 01:21:22.399 Um but i you know, to to some extent she did get to see, you know, her mother's name, you know, I'm glad that she met Rebecca. 01:21:22.560 --> 01:21:24.319 I'm glad that they had that they had that relationship. 01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:25.279 Yeah. 01:21:25.520 --> 01:21:34.319 It really uh it felt like something that needed to happen for um if she could have found any peace or any trust, yeah, like that's the uh sadly. 01:21:34.399 --> 01:21:46.960 So the the sh Rebecca finished the book, sent her a copy, and like she couldn't really read well in general, but couldn't read especially because of because of uh the aftermath of the stroke that well. 01:21:47.119 --> 01:21:50.159 And Rebecca was like, just wait, I'm gonna come, I'm gonna read it to you. 01:21:50.319 --> 01:21:50.640 Yeah. 01:21:50.800 --> 01:22:00.399 Uh and like she was like making the trip, like trying to figure out how to do the trip, and like Deborah wasn't calling her back, and and it had turned out that she had passed away. 01:22:00.640 --> 01:22:03.279 Um Yeah, I know. 01:22:03.600 --> 01:22:04.159 I know. 01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:22.239 But um the so though the author, I guess because of ethics, was barred from giving any profits directly to the subject of her books, she did start a Henrietta Lax Foundation to help pay for the education and living expenses for Henrietta's grandchildren and great-grandchildren. 01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:23.520 That's really beautiful. 01:22:23.760 --> 01:22:30.560 Um so like the some of the proceeds and the book was sold very well and is continuing to sell sell pretty well. 01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:39.439 Uh, and but a portion of the proceeds are are still going to um, you know, help pay for yeah, to this foundation for the grandchildren and great grandchildren. 01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:47.199 Uh a movie was eventually produced by HBO, released in 2017 based on Rebecca's book, starring like Oprah Winfrey as Deborah Last. 01:22:47.520 --> 01:22:57.439 I knew that Oprah was starring in it, and I was really confused this whole time because I didn't know she was Deborah, and I was like, Henrietta died at the the very old pointed out, age of 31. 01:22:57.680 --> 01:22:59.760 So I was like, how is she? 01:23:00.399 --> 01:23:03.279 You were like, oh my god, she's barely, she was on Death's Door anyway. 01:23:03.359 --> 01:23:05.520 I don't know why we're telling the story, she was already 31. 01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:09.520 That's a a a huge mischaracterization of what happened. 01:23:09.920 --> 01:23:11.520 Well, you did say she was old. 01:23:11.760 --> 01:23:17.039 Uh so I was just confused because Oprah is not 31. 01:23:17.199 --> 01:23:17.359 Right. 01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:19.359 But it makes sense that she was Deborah. 01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:20.880 Um I'm not sure who else is. 01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:29.920 I definitely want to watch the movie because I'm I'm interested, but um it was, you know, uh I have not watched it yet, so we'll get into it at some point. 01:23:30.239 --> 01:23:36.000 Um so the movie was produced in 2017. 01:23:36.159 --> 01:23:45.279 Um once again, the

family was not able to get direct profits from the movie, but uh three of the remaining sons were hired by the movie as paid consultants, so they got a little bit of money there. 01:23:45.840 --> 01:23:46.159 A little bit. 01:23:46.399 --> 01:23:57.199 Uh and then Rebecca donated a large portion of her profits from the movie once again to the Henrietta Lacks Foundation to further, you know, help pay uh pay and fund. 01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:04.479 In 2021, the Henrietta Lax Enhancing Cancer Research Act was signed into the Enhancing Cancer Research. 01:24:05.039 --> 01:24:05.920 Important last word. 01:24:06.399 --> 01:24:06.640 Research. 01:24:06.800 --> 01:24:08.640 Yeah, no, they were not enhancing cancer. 01:24:08.960 --> 01:24:12.000 Uh no, Enhancing Cancer Research Act was passing a law. 01:24:12.159 --> 01:24:29.840 The law was mostly just a federal acknowledgement of Henrietta's contribution, but also included uh directions for government accountability office to specifically look at the barriers for minorities in participating in cancer studies, like uh in experimental cancer studies to help further science on minority health. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:48.239 So uh, you know, a lot of people, like if you're w wealthy enough or if you have the right connections and and like all all other paths have failed, you're able to like get into some of these experimental tests, test groups, which like is a crapshoot because it could be But if you want to take that risk and it could have good results. 01:24:48.640 --> 01:24:52.960 However, a lot of minorities were barred from uh being able to be a part of that. 01:24:53.119 --> 01:25:01.840 So this act was specifically you know helping kind of realign and give opportunities for you know uh possibly life-saving treatments for for these people. 01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:14.000 So um in October of 2021, the Laxa State began a legal battle with a landmark case against a biotech a biotechnical company called Thermo Fisher Scientific Inc. 01:25:14.319 --> 01:25:15.359 out of Massachusetts. 01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:16.000 Hey there. 01:25:16.239 --> 01:25:16.479 Uh-huh. 01:25:21.520 --> 01:25:32.159 The suit was based on the idea of unjust enrichment, saying that the initial sales were taken without her consent, and therefore any profit made based off of that genetic material was unjustly obtained. 01:25:32.399 --> 01:25:35.520 Um the case eventually settled out of court in 2023. 01:25:35.600 --> 01:25:49.359 The Laxic state quickly got to work with their next case on the same grounds against a Swiss pharmaceutical company called Novartis and a global and the global uh healthcare corp VRTs. 01:25:49.760 --> 01:25:52.159 Sorry, I mean people are definitely going to be using this to be a very important thing. 01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:54.960 They gotta know for the book reports. 01:25:57.840 --> 01:25:59.439 So make sure you get all these details right. 01:25:59.760 --> 01:26:03.439 So uh both of those companies also settled out of court in 2026. 01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:07.680 Um and there's currently an ongoing lawsuit against UltragenX. 01:26:08.319 --> 01:26:10.640 That sounds like the company that made Principal Park. 01:26:10.960 --> 01:26:11.279 Yeah. 01:26:11.439 --> 01:26:16.640 Uh you know, uh you can look it up too. 01:26:16.720 --> 01:26:18.560 You know, it'd it'd be fine if you want to. 01:26:18.720 --> 01:26:19.840 If you don't want to, it's fine. 01:26:20.159 --> 01:26:21.920 Um so uh in the U.S. 01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:25.039 District Court of Baltimore, uh, and I feel like this is just the beginning. 01:26:25.119 --> 01:26:45.359 I think they're they're gonna continue kind of um going after some of these people, and the family is getting money, and it's probably all, or at least for the most part, I bet some of it is going back to the the still living uh relatives that are that are there, but uh a lot of it is probably going into this foundation to hopefully really help the you know the descendants of the Lax family um kind of go through it. 01:26:45.520 --> 01:26:58.159 So uh, you know, this I'm very excited that this is happening because it if in in one way, um, it's unfortunate that it isn't like going all the way through the court process to create new precedent and create new law. 01:26:58.319 --> 01:27:11.359 Um, but it does signal a shift in in the tone and the and the fact that like these these are the the pharmaceutical companies are caving like they are means that they know that the like that kind of their their time is numbered. 01:27:11.439 --> 01:27:14.399 So it's again if you're hiding what you're doing, you might know it's a bad thing. 01:27:14.640 --> 01:27:15.199 You might know it's a bad thing. 01:27:15.279 --> 01:27:15.760 You shouldn't be doing it. 01:27:16.000 --> 01:27:16.560 You shouldn't do it. 01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:35.439 So, you know, hopefully, you know, if this keeps going forward, eventually we can kind of base some real make some real litigation kind of covering and protecting people's like genetic, you know, makeup and identity and their genetic matter if it's going to be used in a commercial venture or because capitalism do be uh taking advantage of people. 01:27:35.680 --> 01:27:36.079 Yeah. 01:27:36.319 --> 01:27:37.840 So there you go. 01:27:38.000 --> 01:27:43.920 You know, we did a you know uh 12 hours worth of podcasting for a 15-hour book. 01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:44.560 I'm sorry, everybody. 01:27:46.399 --> 01:27:49.439 I feel like we might have surpassed, but I guess we're just a little bit under. 01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:56.880 Yeah, uh, yeah, because I listen, I it's it's like a 12-hour book at 1.75 speed because I'm a psychopath. 01:27:57.359 --> 01:27:58.479 I hate that. 01:27:59.199 --> 01:28:01.840 I was listening at 3.5 speed for a little while. 01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:04.159 No, nope. 01:28:04.479 --> 01:28:06.079 Yeah, because I had to get those names. 01:28:06.319 --> 01:28:07.039 Nope.

01:28:07.439 --> 01:28:08.000 Nope. 01:28:08.239 --> 01:28:08.640 Bad. 01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:10.479 I'm gonna get better at researching one day. 01:28:11.600 --> 01:28:21.119 Or if anybody uh wants to be a um a loved but uh modestly compensated researcher to help us out until we start making more money, that would be great. 01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:22.399 That would be so helpful. 01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:22.960 Yeah. 01:28:23.199 --> 01:28:25.119 But uh yeah, that's the story. 01:28:25.279 --> 01:28:28.880 Next week, we will get into my series on the potato famine. 01:28:29.119 --> 01:28:30.560 We've already spoiled that, I believe. 01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:31.119 Yeah, yeah. 01:28:31.279 --> 01:28:31.439 Yeah. 01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:34.479 I think unless we spoil no, I think we're in the fourth episode. 01:28:35.520 --> 01:28:40.079 I don't remember maybe that that five-minute blurb from the time the the first three times we tried to record this. 01:28:40.560 --> 01:28:44.560 This episode and this series feels like it's what we've been doing for the past 17 years. 01:28:45.039 --> 01:28:46.960 Um I learned a lot. 01:28:47.119 --> 01:28:48.560 I've had a lot to think about. 01:28:48.720 --> 01:28:53.279 I have a lot of um anxious feelings in my tummy about a lot of these things. 01:28:53.439 --> 01:28:53.680 Yeah. 01:28:54.000 --> 01:28:56.880 Just because everybody in this story is anxious and sad and it's so. 01:29:02.079 --> 01:29:02.399 Yeah. 01:29:03.520 --> 01:29:12.079 I uh next one I'm gonna try to do something that is more uh you know less medical related. 01:29:12.399 --> 01:29:15.760 Yeah, just more people getting hot coffee burns, I think. 01:29:15.840 --> 01:29:16.880 Something of of the like. 01:29:17.279 --> 01:29:19.760 That was an old lady who got third degree burns. 01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:20.399 I know. 01:29:20.560 --> 01:29:21.760 And I want people to know more about it. 01:29:21.920 --> 01:29:22.479 Still a bummer. 01:29:22.640 --> 01:29:23.600 I still want people to know more. 01:29:24.880 --> 01:29:25.600 Are you sure she's old? 01:29:25.680 --> 01:29:26.640 Maybe she was in her 30s. 01:29:26.800 --> 01:29:28.000 She's in her 80s. 01:29:28.720 --> 01:29:29.279 I think. 01:29:29.600 --> 01:29:29.920 I don't know. 01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:31.119 I'm gonna find out more soon. 01:29:31.359 --> 01:29:32.560 We're gonna find out more. 01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:35.039 But next week, yeah, we're back to me. 01:29:35.199 --> 01:29:36.239 Yeah, watch out worlds. 01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:42.239 A crisp, you know, a tighter tighter information and more puns. 01:29:42.640 --> 01:29:43.279 Yes. 01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:44.960 That's what the people want. 01:29:45.199 --> 01:29:45.680 Is it? 01:29:45.840 --> 01:29:46.479 I don't know. 01:29:46.720 --> 01:29:47.119 We don't know. 01:29:47.199 --> 01:29:48.479 The people don't really tell us much. 01:29:48.880 --> 01:29:51.359 They've been telling us more, though, which I we really appreciate. 01:29:51.439 --> 01:29:55.039 And uh getting those emails are a highlight of our days. 01:29:55.119 --> 01:29:56.880 So get the rich bot at Gmail. 01:29:57.039 --> 01:29:57.520 Thanks. 01:29:57.760 --> 01:29:59.119 Um, but yeah, that's it. 01:29:59.199 --> 01:29:59.520 I think. 01:29:59.920 --> 01:30:00.720 Catch you next week. 01:30:00.880 --> 01:30:01.520 Yeah, we're back. 01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:02.479 We took that little break. 01:30:02.560 --> 01:30:02.800 We're back. 01:30:02.960 --> 01:30:04.560 Yeah, thank you guys for your patience. 01:30:04.720 --> 01:30:07.920 Uh, and gals, and they's and thems. 01:30:08.960 --> 01:30:09.840 Failed it. 01:30:12.640 --> 01:30:13.520 Failed it. 01:30:13.680 --> 01:30:16.159 I'm the most inclusive person in the world. 01:30:16.479 --> 01:30:18.800 Um good golliness, Molly. 01:30:18.880 --> 01:30:19.520 We gotta stop. 01:30:19.680 --> 01:30:20.399 Yeah, we gotta do that. 01:30:20.560 --> 01:30:22.560 Uh, this is the epi. 01:30:23.439 --> 01:30:24.079 Goodbye. 01:30:24.319 --> 01:30:24.880 Goodbye. 01:30:26.399 --> 01:30:30.159 Thanks for listening, and a big thanks to Carsi Bland for the theme music. 01:30:30.399 --> 01:30:33.680 You can follow the podcast everywhere at Eathe Rich Pod. 01:30:34.079 --> 01:30:39.279 You can email us your suggestions for future episodes at eatherichpod at gmail. 01:30:39.520 --> 01:30:45.039 You can follow me at thefunnywalsh, and you can follow Danny at DMoss315. 01:30:45.439 --> 01:30:46.960 See you next week.