Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is one of the greatest basketball players ever, but he's happy if you know him as a writer, a cultural critic, an activist, a chronicler of African-American history, an actor, an ambassador, and a coin collector. Kareem and Marc talk about all those things and how life in 2017 America is similar to life when Kareem was a young man. Plus, therapist Phil Stutz returns to the garage to talk about the follow up to his enormously successful and helpful book The Tools. This episode is sponsored by The Butterfly Effect with Jon Ronson on Audible and Blue Apron.

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00:00:00Hey people where else can you get Bruce Springsteen Anna Kendrick Terry gross Wanda Sykes Michael Keaton Sarah Silverman Leslie Jones Paul Thomas Anderson Mel Brooks and a hundred and fifty one other people you know and love talking about parenting relationships addiction sexuality success and failure it's all in
00:00:19waiting for the punch words to live by from the W. T. F. podcast which is hitting bookstores in less than two months but you can pre order your copy today people have been asking us to do a WTF book for years but we didn't want to do it
00:00:33half fast so we really consider this book the best possible representation of this podcast it took more than two years to make it but it was worth it pre order your copy at WTF pod dot com by clicking on the book link or go to mark Merrin book
00:00:47dot com and don't forget to submit your pre order receipt to get a book plate signed by me mark marron gas the book is good seriously let's do the show alright let's do this how are you what the **** what the **** buddies what the **** here's what
00:01:17the **** Toby ends what the **** Turkey ends what the **** is happening what is happening I'm mark Merritt in this is WTF my podcast welcome to it how's your Monday are you okay I'm ready I'm recording this couple days early for a couple various reasons but I'm
00:01:35happy to be here we have a %HESITATION we have a great show today %HESITATION Kareem Abdul Jabbar is here a little later in the show to talk about everything but basketball %HESITATION Dr Phil starts going talk to him a little bit he's got a got a new book
00:01:54out he was on the episode four fifty four back in two thousand and thirteen after Hank is very recommended him actually and %HESITATION young people told us how helpful that episode was for them his new book is that called coming alive he rode with very Michael's again comes
00:02:09out August twenty second he'll be here in just a little while what are we gonna do what we gotta do America are we going to keep it together there is a need for relief in a relentlessly depressing and frightening cultural environment to political environment I mean whatever what
00:02:31happened over the weekend in Charlottesville is is disconcerting just that the the the ESR water representatives of the army of unforgettable hate nerds into a militia types in varying degrees of armor and outfits some oddly more ridiculous then I think they intended and there's some just flat out
00:02:57old school racists out there and the counter protests were powerful and courageous and day trying to hold the line maintain the balance to make people understand there are people out there fighting this racism and intolerance and violence and that I think the difficult thing for most people now
00:03:20you granted that yet again this is a minority of people is that you know we have %HESITATION %HESITATION leader a president that is refuses to really put his foot down in a definitive way when it comes to this type of behavior whether it be blowing up mosques or
00:03:38a KKK **** rally a hell of a I don't think he's mentioned anything about the American terrorist attack on the mosques but you know well it's just make clear that yeah **** in the clan or not not good that be nice to hear from the president but he
00:03:58will not do it in those definitive terms on like many members of Congress many senators past presidents because the bottom line is he doesn't want to come right out and say that %HESITATION **** are bad because he doesn't want to alienate his base that's I mean that's where
00:04:18we're at as a country the president does not want to condemn **** or the KKK because he just doesn't want to alienate his base it's a scary business and there's a lot of other things that are untethered in chaotic and %HESITATION your frightening about leadership at this point
00:04:39time and sadly but also in a in a good way you will be called upon as an American to stand up for this at some point it's easy to eat here I am in in California and there's part of me that sort of like what's not down the
00:04:55street from me it's not in this state it doesn't directly involve me but it directly involves all of us we are Americans and it really is going to come down to %HESITATION what America I do you want to live in and what can you rationalize the rationalizing question
00:05:13is a big question because you know most people in America are like well you know look I I'm okay doesn't affect me that much believe me I'll do will trump is in there believe me all of this affects all of us we are all Americans we have different
00:05:31ideas we have different opinions and we have different beliefs about democracy and those will and are being called into question and are worth fighting for so it's on all of us to do something you know you might have to do more than you're comfortable with am always a
00:05:51grateful that people are out there %HESITATION fighting we have the the counter protesters and people in the government and people speaking out we're gonna have to do that continue doing it there's no %HESITATION you can't really put your blinders on a I I can't even in the the
00:06:07amount that I do it now the just even the small amount that I try to detach is causing me chest pains and headaches and queasiness dark times scary times but there there is the fabric of America is still woven it's not completely unraveled and look you know I
00:06:32eat a I have no doubt that the you know if it is happening and if it does happen that Americans will sort of like slowly involve into accepting authoritarianism because they feel like they have no choice and you know the one benefit of that is that look when
00:06:50in America will be the best authoritarian state on this planet because when Americans put their minds to it they can do anything so America will will will certainly be just a barometer of excellence and authoritarianism if enough people don't think what is happening in this country now involves
00:07:15them or fax them you don't get down the line real like yeah I me mine I said that much different I mean I look I you know I didn't there weren't that many Mexicans here or a before they were all you know told to leave but it didn't
00:07:28really affect my life that much yeah I mean I don't know I guess so I guess that you know a lot of black people or you know there's not a lot in my neighborhood so I don't I don't really know what's going on with them yeah that you
00:07:39have before that Muslims were all kicked out of the country I didn't really know any you know so like so really you know it's just like I still just go you know I go get coffee and I go over to where I work and I I don't know
00:07:52it's just not that much different that's what the sound of an authoritarian America is yeah I guess some people got hurt down there but you know I don't know I you know didn't lately it looked bad but I think those people that were protesting were you know I
00:08:11mean they seemed really out of line and angry I mean is there another way to handle it I mean at least they looked at the end they just it was terrible but I guess I don't know why they were causing trouble I love this country and %HESITATION yeah
00:08:29I'm just and it's it's just sad that so many people are so angry they should just relax that's what authoritarian America sounds like right now I don't really you know I don't vote and I don't I don't really pay attention to the news in like you know politics
00:08:47is so boring it's so boring that's why the far Terry in America that's how it happens so I'll let me tell you another weird dream this one was really wild I was on some all I remember is always on like some sort of bungee cord but it wasn't
00:09:07hanging from something was sort of throwing me back and forth do you know I mean like it was like it was anchored somewhere and I was bouncing from one you know one thing I'd go up and then I go down and I go over and every time I
00:09:20would it would sort of the rubber band or the bungee would go all the way to the end right at that moment we stop before you snap back it with my surroundings would be in black and white and it would be sort of you know elements of my
00:09:33past and then I'd go to another area where be I just bouncing in these sort of weird black and white vignettes of my of my past any any just kept going down for some reason %HESITATION Jon Hamm was running the controls of the of the %HESITATION back in
00:09:51time bungee ride in black and white does it a Jon Hamm operated carnival concession what do you make of that dream analysts I got some pretty good analysis from my last one I didn't read that maybe I read it on the maybe on Thursday did you guys hear
00:10:07me talk to Jon Ronson a few days ago when was it last week and they this is a question you should all probably ask yourselves who really pays the price for free porn find out in the butterfly effect with Jon Ronson a gripping new original audio series available
00:10:25now from audible if you listen to last Thursday's show you heard John telling me about how he got started on this series he was interested in the consequences of people's online behavior and it led him to the massive world of online porn where John learned about everything from
00:10:41the hierarchy of milfs to falling in love with a sex doll follow along as John leads you on a journey for answers in unexpected places and uncovers the surprising consequences that popped up on the world got what it wanted free porn part mystery part adventure the butterfly effect
00:11:00with Jon Ronson delivers a human look into the tech industries tangled affair with porn lives were mangled fortunes were made all for your pleasure listen to the stunning new audio series now at audible dot com slash butterfly that's audible dot com slash butterfly well yeah I love Jon
00:11:21Ronson yep so Dr Phil starts it's always nice to see him his new book is called coming alive he rode with very Michael's it comes out August twenty second it approaches self help in a way that maybe we'll have a little more staying power and when we talk
00:11:38about you know of those those type of books in general in the affected they do have but that he's a bright guy in a it's always good to talk to him we generally have good conversations and he makes me feel smart sometimes ever both times you've been here
00:11:52so this is me talking to a to fill stats the do you usually wake up earlier or later I've seen on seventy years old so I wake up at like six but I can't I can't white why do we %HESITATION wake up earlier as we get older I
00:12:11it seems like a might my theory is that to him we innately know we're running out of time it makes perfect sense excellent that's right I everybody you know from our last conversation along when that the tools that has helped a lot of people the book the tools
00:12:34and I hear a lot about it did you hear a lot about I it's funny I hear more about it now than I than I did when the book came out how really yeah they sort of picked up its it picked up yeah you know why they leave
00:12:46the audience for this stuff most of the time and they're going to buy the book unless they're in trouble so you know you I mean that the so life preserver life preserver you know times in our side yeah right yeah right right did people eventually getting can't do
00:13:02a problem yeah this is correct you know it's like healthcare eventually it's going to hit you and then here is a financial aspect if if we can you know about that you buy for twenty Bucks or whatever it is if I can help you that's fantastic oh yeah
00:13:18absolutely bad people I it people love the book and then I get this new book from you too same guys right Phil start you bury Michael's the other guy the other day that you write with we talked about him but at this this is %HESITATION called coming alive
00:13:33for tools to defeat your inner enemy ignite creative expression and unleash your souls potential yeah that's a at center were overstating they got a cellular covers the cover you know I mean if you if you can deliver on all that then that great away we have to deliver
00:13:52on it too now yeah you can just put that on the cover in and that's it all right well what will it look I got problems yeah it's not obvious because it may maybe we can help apply some of this stuff because they know like these books for
00:14:08me you know I remember a I get a little bit out of them and then like I don't finish them and then I'd be I feel like I get of you know what I read a half way through it never got enough I think I you know I
00:14:18mean how much of this do I need to get the idea and I move on here and you hear on TV show now right I do so what else could you possibly need well you know it's funny that you say that doc because %HESITATION you deny what I
00:14:32I learned is that years ago I always felt like more of money doesn't make you happy I'd like to figure that I'd like to find that out first hand any another you live and it's it's definitely change some fears yet on some in securities Dave put the put
00:14:49those to rest but the fundamental stuff it doesn't change that much no effect is essentially the premise of what we do in other words and I and we have some credibility because we treat all these people that are very successful stars win and this is what we call
00:15:04a realm of illusion which is somebody tells himself if I only get this my own show finally get that certain female you want to marry whatever is it then life will become easy yeah and what had I had obviously never happens now than ever night all your experience
00:15:23no one ever came in and said Hey you know what I'm done I got what I wanted thank you know no one's ever said that if they do if it was true I would try to talk them out of it it's bad cash flow for us so we
00:15:35really wanted anyway yeah no but seriously that and that's why you know a lot of guys will become famous still blow up so early to get into drugs and alcohol sometimes even kill themselves it's like I did my share I did what I was supposed to do which
00:15:50is to become famous because you know very sincere and live still has the same problems what the **** right I'm being jumped sometimes more problems yes sometimes it was certainly problems you didn't have before yeah like you know what to do with all that money and then how
00:16:05to manage other **** you bought with it yeah that yeah that's that's really overwhelming so how is this different than the other book well okay here is the difference the other book which basically was looking for very common in the four most common problem Seattle have we address
00:16:22them kinda one by one but what we didn't have in the first book is it cohesiveness so there's nothing that tied the thing together and people would ask us well you know why those tools %HESITATION is there more to this and the main thing people would say is
00:16:38I like the book I like what you said in an but my effort fizzled out fizzled out here might date your like a pie the tools then after year they just that they get the can do anymore yeah and the year would be a long time a lot
00:16:52of times you know they'll do it for three months two months to get excited here I'm an enthusiast my partisan in through here so sometimes you get Freud called this a flight into health era sure am I and I do it all the time after this interview I'm
00:17:09gonna go work out I mean one of my flights in the house right now okay that what it is well worth it of flight Intel's dozen last that's when he was in a flattering to have him into another mistakes will talk about it for I did a year
00:17:23following a bit out of favor but he did have some good ideas he was a solid thinker yes he yeah he has he was had some brilliant ideas in fact which connects will talk about the route see it seems like well these tools were but I stop using
00:17:37them I'm lazy where I went to some of the some truth in that but will we discord I discovered when I started this is as a counter force and I call the counter for support X. mia note I just could part XP because the thing that stops you
00:17:52from following trip yes are sticking with it that's correct yeah so when I was a young shrink I was %HESITATION needless to say I was somewhat rebellious in the finance so but I was also very enthusiastic so I got so starting on my practices may be thirty years
00:18:10old and I was helping a lot of people a lot of times the symptoms would go away temporarily but after three months six months whatever it will come crashing back in and not only would it come back it was worse than when they started via and was another
00:18:25problem which is they lost faith in the whole process sure not only did not work but does it you know clearly we it's it's it's it's that things fault it says yes here so to secret enemy working behind the scenes so to speak sure always %HESITATION yeah it's
00:18:43like they say in the recovery racket that there when you're not drinking your your diseases doing push ups but yeah I mean there is that the issue of self sabotage in and sort of like you know I am you might be I guess of a broader question is
00:18:59is that you know you talk to a lot of people these are practical things that people can do with that with the context but but some of this stuff is is pretty deeply wired rice but you believe that you know through a certain amount of discipline that maybe
00:19:14you can re route neural pathways are change your behavior for good but it's a it's a battle it's a struggle yet has to be a show you know lately what I read is not so much psychiatric books I like to read books by ex military Gagne and people
00:19:30that are training at professional athletes and high level and did the whole thing is what do they call it a %HESITATION movie something new brain drain re training sure more less mir and the one I'm most interested in was to Stephan curry utilities from Stephan curry is like
00:19:51a mediocre athlete who's the best player in the NBA and he's on believes the best shooter ever industry best mediocre athlete those two key really I mean for us to look like a god arise right movement MBAs meal so I got into this and how did this guy
00:20:06get so good and I ice I looked at him I would call the cool there and there was a clip the camera you to boot with his training program and his his what he would do to be a big board a big wooden board a I have like
00:20:21six or seven lights on the board and each light corresponded to a specific move like like a purple light we're going here we fade to the right right cross over and then in another light would go on he take heed back up a few steps like whatever it
00:20:35doesn't matter what with but the the the changing colors from one of these lights to another here was faster than you could think right sort of follow the lights you had to give up complete thinking are you knew what was connected to the light you knew the movie
00:20:50had to do yeah well at the end and beginning you might not even though you might even forget what the move where I sort of eventually becomes habit it becomes a reflex yes and training training a reflex faster than you can think of right the secret of what
00:21:05we do and if you if you do that religiously takes a long time you can change these basic patterns I've I I believe that's true but I mean you know that you what about all that time in between roof reflexive action what about like a three do the
00:21:20things you to do you know you you get the pattern in place but one day you just can be sitting there you know with a piece of cake on like **** this is terrible yeah a hundred percent well it depends on the case what happens is that moment
00:21:37the idea with that I mean that's the trickiest moment okay good and excellent point you should do this for a living and sure I try is this thing there a million tiny moments throughout the day when this port exit tacking you when you don't even know what the
00:21:55idea that bad guy inside yeah and and the idea is the %HESITATION the biggest changes in life the first strong his forces come in through the smallest thing via so we try to you know like you know but John wooden that'll John when the coach here in the
00:22:11code yeah yeah I know so anyway he was a freak and that there was like a certain way to tie your shoe laces mia even a certain way to put your socks on and it wasn't that any specific instructions who's giving them was so brilliant that was the
00:22:25idea that you there was a right way to do things even the smallest thing now so it's ritual eyes yes ritual was so anyway that the tools are designed to go into the very small things right they can also deal with the with the big things but if
00:22:42you want to go ahead price nice you you're saying so it's so you know in between you know when when you're most vulnerable to factor axes out you call that Michael apart it's hard acts you know coming at you from the inside you know you have a few
00:22:56things you little things you can do te either distract him or you from ruining your life is correct so it now let's break it down here because I like I like systems that use it well maybe we can apply to what I need to do is help with
00:23:11that that media problems yeah I guess to the extent I mean I'm a walking example of it yeah weaver you have %HESITATION you have an illness that yeah it every day yes everything and you seem like you see I haven't seen in a couple years you seem great
00:23:27yeah praise the lord I'm I haven't I had Parkinson's and it hasn't deteriorated at all and the shadow to a judge and did you have privacy in my area numerologist began testing video did you have a great job via it's you know it's an arts of medicating somebody
00:23:46%HESITATION shirt is in a you know I'm I I II unfortunately campuses you sometimes you got to retain a little bit yeah try stuff out of the on a good day combination Amanda good combination and my whole thing is energy I'm one of the things we deal with
00:24:02in here is I think they have a basic energy level and it can't be changed so they tire out they feel will lead to you know go to sleep right watch TV near you know smokers or whatever it is but arc the conceit of that part of the
00:24:18book is you can increase your energy level as possible to increase when I was a baby shrinking or just learning here nobody ever mentioned energy as a factor in treating patients are having in there but what I was seeing was the people with the highest energy for the
00:24:34most part with the most successful mia and for the most part they they with the with the ones with the highest energy with the hardest ones to stop right who's a failure at century right so it's it and because I don't have much energy because of the illness
00:24:49had become very curious about it now would you learn about that well I mean I imagine when you were a baby shrink yet no one was reading %HESITATION Wilhelm Reich Forgione energy yeah the box fuel up he remember that guy you how do you know about the number
00:25:04of broad minded guy you know there was a comic that was very into that %HESITATION yeah back in the day in New York I can remember that shows you the I'm a box he did hear he had or had been good for them here now you know if
00:25:19you get when you just put your head in the now yeah I need to get all and I'm interested to know that I am sort of fascinated with that guy so would you learn about energy if that is that where you started is that when when you were
00:25:30thinking about this book with energy well the book we we took for major things that we felt we can the life force of somebody and and these are things in general people don't think they can change or they can work with so one was exhaustion which is what
00:25:49we're talking about one was it addictions and impulsive behaviors %HESITATION one was hurt feelings and and feeling like you're a victim mia and %HESITATION one was demoralization despondency quitting okay okay okay and we fell in those areas were part extras to **** you up interest into your life
00:26:14that's the strategy apart access is how they get in you get he is so he's like the forward right then got educated and they said that was a pretty good that seem solid yeah so then they have that with this office and now you have a framework through
00:26:28which can identify how %HESITATION part axes getting them yes yeah so you know here's the secret of that Poindexter's and want to know what exists and a particularly doesn't want you to know that his acting on you right now in the act that way when you sometimes when
00:26:47you realize it is they want you to believe that that's your true self exactly if you smoke that's exactly a hundred percent right right so politics is an imposter right interests to push you out and take over and if it does it so many times there's a familiarity
00:27:05to India and the familiarity is kind of persuasive even if you look back it's nuts but right different because he ate it sometimes it represent you you freak because the satisfaction that can come one part axes being satisfied %HESITATION feels like strange but it isn't that's correct right
00:27:25that's correct I'm I'm very impressed have you ever do you have a strong point at all yeah yeah very very living at inbreeding relationship with with but I've had some success with it you know you know you you know it's that it wouldn't hurt the mixture between accepting
00:27:44it compartmentalized ing and and you know and and trying to %HESITATION to stay in those things you're saying right that like the the list you had your outside of addiction but but you know insisting that your failure or you're feeling embarrassed your immoral idea demoralize is that those
00:28:04are those are natural human experience yes right yes so you you know instead of fighting against them you have to process them he has shifted yes that's exactly right yes the process right so once you identify these four things what happens in the book well the first part
00:28:22of the book is when you let's say these are for expressions of Porter Exia so the first thing you want to do is learn to identify it and I'll when you're reading a book you know now when you're talking to your friend right right in the moment right
00:28:36okay no that's right so you you know once you identify the one that's in you how's it popping up in your life every cent yes right and that's specific to each person whom so that's a good day it's a good moment when you realize that yes if you
00:28:50have if you give the person power see the other thing that happens when you realize that is you like pushing Porter ex away from you so at that point you get you for some people the first inkling of freedom that they've ever had in their lives yeah yeah
00:29:04because really they see the enemy out there just read pogo everyday pogo the cartoon yeah yeah maybe when I was a kid will is a famous thing pogo said we have met the enemy and he is out and he is %HESITATION here yeah and that's pretty pression the
00:29:20idea anyway so and we tell people even if you don't know what to do about it if you can identified in labor label it right in the moment yeah you're ready and you're way to gaining some sort of freedom well yeah but then what what what how do
00:29:35you address %HESITATION you know negotiating with part acts you know I mean it's sort of like look here's where I'm at near me okay I I'm I'm addicted to these nicotine lozenges and I have been for years here now because you know I don't take any other medication
00:29:49in the world seems to be %HESITATION %HESITATION you know crumbling my anxieties extremely high my dread is hi my fear of death is hide my fear of catastrophic death as I said now I'm ingesting probably more nicotine than I ever have been drinking a lot of coffee I'm
00:30:04**** nauseous all the time so now I know that I should get off of the things and I know that you know I've done I've gotten off everything else but this part acts with this negotiation words are like what am I gonna do without dose right right I
00:30:19said I don't think I can help you it's too wow she's really know you know those it doesn't you're supposed to tell me get the book it's all at well what the book has besides the four tools and therefore expressions reported since it has a it has a
00:30:34philosophy that says the following this probably will only work for a while it'll only work temporarily lonely work half way but if you keep advancing in doing what we what we want at what we're asking you to do particularly in those blacker moments we'll call them hold the
00:30:55whole you will find that your overall view of who you are and of the world will change is just it just takes a tremendous amount of work is a situation core mantle year politics will never stop attack you never if you live to a hundred and two it's
00:31:09still going to attack you but there's something good if your parents are alive today than it has support I am not going to touch that thousand foot pole no interesting idea so okay what was a few years saying that %HESITATION yeah so the fact that won't stop attacking
00:31:33you the good news is if you're willing to work consistently against the using the tools not only can you overcome some of the symptoms but you actually your self identification changes in a lot of times you for you'll discover abilities that you didn't know you had sure from
00:31:51the so it's not just getting rid of the symptoms it's it is an expansion now here's what products once it will it works on the principle of impossibility and what that means is it gives you a symptom let's say you're afraid of flying will it make sure you
00:32:06can't get over the symptom rises some crippling thing going on and it makes it want to defeat you so badly that you feel this is impossible to change you may be a little bit what you have here what is it you use nicotine loss in Iowa and it's
00:32:22an addiction but yeah I know but you're right but you know it it will manipulate you and charm you into thinking that to a you know like it's got the better way exactly site it's either seducing you were threatened right will both at the same right so but
00:32:40in ways that sense of impossibility I can't change spreads out all over the place yeah eventually you can't change anything right and that's its real goal paralyzed yet in other words if you want to look at a spiritual basis you know you you know about twelves that may
00:32:56I will the there's an evolution that some human beings can only in other words we're all capable of much more than we do mia when we when we fight off these extra taxes in column we start to get this sense of possibility we start to get this sense
00:33:18of Hey you have do you have more potential than you think you have and that's where the battle is part excellent you decide what you think bullshit I'm lucky I'm even where I am what part of that has to be you have to acknowledge and that you know
00:33:34maybe slightly celebrate your little victories over this yes hundred percent yeah because a lot of times they happen incrementally in their small things that you know you should that it's easy if you have a strong part acts to dismiss any success yes because that's part of the over
00:33:51that's an over arc that's a long a a lot of of what he called the long game tactic of part acts is to diminish anything you've ever accomplished yeah use of this book for you to invest if that's exactly right yeah so all of those are on going
00:34:11to the heading of impossibility and crippling the person here so it is who is a fight it's it's like a war you know I was a Jewish Frank is sitting in a in an office on their you know people think it's a very sedentary kind of passive existing
00:34:28yet type thing but for me it's never been like that rule for me it's been a war and once identified this sex thing working I I've really in your your patience at first it was my patients items identified in me to America later right because I thought it
00:34:44was perfectly yeah finally said wait a minute I'm the one who invented these things and I'm not taking advantage of my stupid there then I sort of work order the best person I've ever seen the one that you using the tools my poor tools is my partner who's
00:35:01right he's unbelievably disciplined mia and look he's probably six than what he is but you I can see the change over twenty occurred in him the year spiritual ideas really yes they are mia yeah the the point look we both of us agree Lou weather will hide your
00:35:17wrong with this idea that this is what we call the gap via which means you can you can go to a shrink you can work hard you can understand when you problems sure intellectual here you have all that we could put these they have no way to close
00:35:33the gap through action those now what we do well because I haven't found that understanding per se will change somebody sometimes it does but mostly it's not enough know it sometimes it enforces our ability to bullshit yes then you can just always and you become your own therapist
00:35:49I use it the I'm sure you must sit there were cries all the time or the like all over right I get it in the next week they come in is that I did the thing again ride you know but I understand it two percent and then they
00:36:00keep doing it yeah the the good thing about me is that pisses me off right yeah so I'm actually going to end up that you know I think that the hardest thing for people who have these things is is that you know once you once you start to
00:36:16see the patterns of these things hurt your life which is I think what this book will help you do it is that you know you start to realize a couple of things like well am I gonna let it keep happening and life isn't that long any like there's
00:36:29no sort of over our king thing here in the book that's going to say this is going to make you a new person buffer for **** sake you know you got to get a little relief from these patterns so you can get something out of life yes yes
00:36:41in one of the greatest feelings with somebody is being able to do something they thought was impossible even if it's a small thing yeah it changes everything now does it take a week it's like a it's like for me well there's a lot of examples like a you
00:36:55know a it was one of the things is you got to be careful with those moments is is not to beat yourself up for not doing it sooner yes that's correct and that happens all the time because that's a but that's a primary tool of the part X.
00:37:10yet is that like you know you get finally doing it because you **** **** not yet fifty you do it yeah you've you've got nothing you are excellent at portraying part X. I came to the falls apart at for the movie the guy yet I'm gonna remember that
00:37:29yet and that's the that's correct a hundred percent so what can people like you you know I I think what you're trying to you know connect within the book through through these tools is that life is hard you know life is there is suffering by you know the
00:37:42end and you know there are challenges all ways obviously like you know you have health challenges other people do people have they there's no end to it yes but by and there's no way you can avoid it correct and and %HESITATION there there's some part of the of
00:37:58you that has to embrace these challenges in this suffering you know in order to accept it so you can you know have a proactive light yeah look everybody says all the strings to write these books say life has to have meaning and you have to look forward and
00:38:14you have to find the meaning of which is true but for me to really feel life is meaningful I have to have I have to close that gap in others I have to use a tool in adversity cataracts the adversity or or even better turn the adversity into
00:38:30more strength I have to feel that if you feel that you get a sense of meaning and not only that the worst things that happened sent can give you the most sense of meaning yeah if you fight back against them well yeah yeah you did a noble thing
00:38:43I'm glad you got the new book out in in the Senate and I was happy to see you I'm glad you're doing okay yeah thanks for having me in the an appropriate time I'll come back and check on you again maybe I'll just come to your office okay
00:38:58based on a show of thank you that was me and %HESITATION Dr Phil stats is new book coming alive that he wrote very Michael's out August twenty second were sponsor today by blue apron the number one fresh ingredients and recipe delivery service in the country for less than
00:39:17ten dollars a meal they deliver seasonal recipes along with pre portion ingredients right to your door one great thing about having time on my hands a summers that I've been doing a lot of cooking and what's better than getting a box sent right to your house where you
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00:40:02by going to blue apron dot com slash Merrin you will love how good it feels and tastes to create incredible home cooked meals with blue apron so don't wait that's blue apron dot com slash Merrin blue apron a better way to cook so creamy Abdul Jabbar here's the
00:40:19thing about cream Abdul Jabbar and many of you know this about me is that I'm not a big sports fan I'm pretty physical guy but I'm not big sports fan and I don't know a lot about sports but I did know of course that Kareem Abdul Jabbar is
00:40:31one the greatest basketball players that ever lived and I felt a little ill prepared to talk to him we are heading into it but they they wanted him to come on the show he wanted to come on the show so I was like I yeah I'll talk to
00:40:43green jobs were and fortunately for me did not want to talk about basketball really so that worked out this is me and cream of dole Jabbar his %HESITATION his book coach wooden in me are fifty year friendship on and off the court is now available at the graphic
00:41:00novel of his detective novel Mycroft Holmes comes out next month September nineteenth you can pre order it now ties so this is me engaging in conversation with the great Kareem Abdul Jabbar yeah it's been at like had a a bad morning maybe you can relate to it I
00:41:24I I just found out that the new cartridge on my record player is broken love and someone just give me a Wayne shorter record that never heard before which one I I I I don't know just sitting in there you know it because I'm I'm at Lee Morgan
00:41:37freak right now yeah I'm just getting into Lee Morgan so it's one with Lee Morgan on their plane with Wayne but not with the jazz messengers okay and I want to play it and the guy I guess the the woman the queen's my house at all no idea
00:41:50it's just eight and I gotta go downhill yeah now do you have do you have a do you still play records no no more no I I went CD because I I didn't like the unlike the fidelity of the records of the records the CD was clean and
00:42:05yeah play record sounds like the my frying an egg in the background you know he in records get new ones unknown if they they don't sting right you don't buy into the idea that that was the the the sound of analog is richer and softer than it might
00:42:22be yeah you might have a point there yet unlike the CD sound could you know get up loud and you can hear and yeah yeah it's all right there that's important yeah oh yeah so a little more new wind through the the records I ended baby I'm just
00:42:38part of a fad I don't know if it was and it was fun nature it just somebody explains the minute really bother me there that my kids never had records right they don't know an LP is right and just so much that of the technology that we had
00:42:57when I was a kid is is just a totally irrelevant and god's Cohen it was something they were something you're tactile there was something about your connections with even books yeah you know I got your book right here you can hold the book and I guess they you
00:43:13know they still sell books but most people that listen to books the reading on the kindle but I still like to hold the book there is something about the relationship with can you can you grew up a record you know it was your dad a musician and a
00:43:25you know I I so much too forward learned about jazz I read on the album cover yeah yeah nat Hentoff writing about all those dudes like a and the village voice he used to do some of those liner notes a yes vote for the bill of course but
00:43:40you know on on all the blue all the albums they had extensive notes and stuff yeah knows a real good DJ in New York of his name was a beach yeah he always really do a lot of research on every record he played you know I could tell
00:43:55you all you know the sequence of the solo yeah yeah nor was all about did you are do you got a handle on that stuff I mean do you like is like I'm just now getting like I always sort of listen to jazz it but not as attentively
00:44:07because I was afraid of the rabbit hole because it it go on forever like you know there's so much but the thing of it is you you you you just have to go with what you lie exactly you don't have to finish everything up you know and if
00:44:19you don't want to spend any time the thing that Tommy Dorsey or right or Kenny G. or and I know you don't want to listen to you know I don't have to know know Kenny G. know Kenny G. I yeah I was up in that you know Ben
00:44:32Sidran is the gap where he's been on the show you know like at his loan on his son sort of pestered me and said you've got to talk to my dad he's good cat here he's a great guy right so but the funny thing was is Adam I
00:44:46went up to Madison to do a comedy show and and Ben reached out to me said yeah I live here come hang out with have lunch we had lunch and I was in Wisconsin yeah okay that's where you live Andy I went over his house he's got all
00:44:58those Blue Note records man like you know some duty new in Japan when they started re issue and I'm like gave them like he's got all the Blue Note records all cover yeah on on the wall and I was looking for this %HESITATION Tina Brooks record with that
00:45:10with Lee Morgan on it minor move it's hard to find and he's going through Stephanie turned me on to hard bop stuff I didn't realize that there was a sub category of hard bop to tell me the predecessors when he's got to those Tina Brooks records and just
00:45:24take one Mike and this is like the best trip and you can get all that a little over in Japan right does well you can go to one store and get all of that all the Blue Note stuff yes and you know they can T. shirts and stuff
00:45:36remember the of the unity to certain I I couldn't get it quick enough yeah yeah sold out they sold out one of my favorite albums of all time they they were incredible just this the symbiosis of you know what what they could create yeah it was amazing when
00:45:53you were a kid would you grow up Manhattan right in the city yeah so it would not with your dad as a working musician yeah but he wasn't the of soloists the JJ Johnson more you know it's so he couldn't get a job on the front line and
00:46:09you know he's good section man yeah Moses instrument crumble ho yeah if he had had his %HESITATION desire he would have played the income base is better so you grew up with that yeah I did and you know I I knew felonious I used to babysit for a
00:46:25Ben Riley yeah so you know that with bonuses drummer yeah and the you know one man's wife would come home I could go down to the vanguard did usually playing down there like it catch monk at the bank vanguard I must've seen perform about thirty times really high
00:46:42school and college what what was he like as the dude I mean could you talk to him no you couldn't talk he was somewhere else for a host of time is spent somewhere else he talk to you know like you come back and talk to you and then
00:46:58he yeah go often to wherever he was right but just like check in and then out yeah yeah yeah yeah that was good he was musical genius no doubt about it no doubt was your point there were you wanted to pursue music over ball yeah but that ended
00:47:15up being in high school and I had to make a choice yeah and and you know I had already made the commitment to basketball and I was much better basketball than I was that music so did you play some I should of easy but I don't know if
00:47:29all if I practice the piano I would have had it down and I you know I could have stayed with it yeah but I wouldn't practice the whole idea of reading music really intimidated me I thought I should be able to read like a printed page right at
00:47:43which I was precocious via but it you know it wasn't couldn't do the same thing and if people don't come at all no that's just shows you where you place your your fingers yeah if I if someone explain that to me I I would have a kind of
00:47:56stuck with a longer and I figured it out right she got overwhelmed yeah and I I just %HESITATION intimidated right and then just like of two thousand two I I decided I'm gonna try and take a some piano lessons and I got it they said no you it
00:48:13shows you where you place your fingers in it and you're like damn I should know it wasn't that difficult you know I played what is it %HESITATION GS box very first thing for people beginning piano yeah yeah I was able to read it and play it off and
00:48:28the regret not doing it now yeah yeah yeah horsemen's too late yeah it's too late wait do you play for enjoyment alone sixty years too late at but that doesn't stop the in the past no no and you know if you do it for yourself yeah it's it's
00:48:45fun and you are you are you doing it I might you know because sometimes I you know I hear somebody on and I got it like well I got what is that cordon yeah yeah yeah through to Valdez yeah and in do you go to work it out
00:48:58out but at least the one chord couple couple chords and you know how they relate to each other yeah it's magic man who's really is magic so like I've been watching them I guess because I even in this book I gave you a good relationship with your dad
00:49:13go and your mom too wasn't close but you know it wasn't it wasn't bad rival runner yet just wasn't close to right and my dad was very distant kind of guy and the only thing the two things you like you like music any like my mom here and
00:49:29not your mom do my mom us she was a seamstress and your dad had a job outside of the music but there was a cop out we really yeah my dad was in the police band us so he got to play of behind Marilyn Monroe when she sang
00:49:44Happy Birthday to president Kennedy all really at the democratic convention in Madison Square Garden of hidden so my dad you know they figured they get the policeman that reality is a cop known anybody crazy company they were ready did you go to that thing no I didn't because
00:50:03I still have bill I have the letter that they sent to my dad thanking him in advance for are participating and they said just bring this letter with you to such and such a gate such a such an entry at the Madison Square Garden and that's how we
00:50:18got into so you got in in the that was the the highlight of his musical career because this new book I mean which I took a few months old though is about you and and and coach wouldn't like and and that's a like a long relationship that seems
00:50:32sort of like a fatherly relationship Star Wars it just started out you know he was the coach and I was the player and right we started to become friends and became close friends and it just kept morphing in but he was with you through all your changes right
00:50:50and and door as it was he became like a family yeah in those conversations I mean like you in terms of like when you try it when you became more politically active and you chose to you know change you know your religious affiliation and all this stuff like
00:51:06where there we see a guy that would sit with you and question your your motives you know and and now but sometimes he you know he would like more to dry out and ask you you know what motivated to win you know you want to know about you
00:51:20know how how much start you given it yeah how much research you did devoted and you know just how much into it worry you or was this just a a large him over some of the things that you know he like party his process in terms of how
00:51:36they sort of guided you throughout your life you know like what were the things that you weren't either you know on the quarter after quarter just as a human being that that gave you strain from this guy well I I think that he just gave us confidence that
00:51:51we were prepared ha you know in the because he prepared a city after the OP if you follow these things I'm showing you gonna be able to you in you'll enjoy the way that you play the game and you were able to apply that to life yeah it's
00:52:07amazing you know just what we learned about how to how to support the people that we care about right in that that that that goes through life together it's a weird thing for me because I was not brought up with sports you know I'm not a huge sports
00:52:20guy and and you know obviously I know who you are and I respect you in in the writing and everything but I can't sit here and do stats with you or you know what why would we want to do that and we wouldn't want to do it anyway
00:52:33but there it was I mad you have to deal with that all your life boy Jeez you know Larry Bird didn't have at but through it all I mean being that you know you are in one of the greatest players that ever lived that you know was it
00:52:49from the beginning knowing that you could do it and you were good at it now obviously that was undeniable at a very early age was it was there something to at going from the inside this or like I want to do something else yeah there was yeah but
00:53:04I I I like the game yeah I thought it was neat yeah I I enjoyed playing it yeah and the to make some books while he yeah and I you know I had some some skill that translated into a you know professional career and %HESITATION you know I
00:53:21I was really thankful that I had the opportunity my producer who knows a little more about sports to me said they like that that you were always judged for your attitude them yet in and you know that kind of hung over you like it we I just looked
00:53:36at this interaction you had you know with with Donald Trump you know that letter he sent you right which is something he did to anybody that pissed him off right right but he went out of his way just to diminish you and try to be a bully you
00:53:49and your soft spot want but you know I I now have dealt with bullies yeah yet love to meet him outback it it it gun won't have so many more yeah you might have a few years ago you might have been able to pull it on on on
00:54:04he he he doesn't in person as someone with a lot of guts I was reading %HESITATION where I was watching a documentary on on Vietnam the new Ken burns documentary and he you know that it's a ten part documentary about that period and in in you live through
00:54:19all of that the I did I I graduated from high school nineteen sixty five just when it was ramping up you know the war yeah and so you know a lot of guys that went guide guide some of my friends went over there and didn't come back were
00:54:33you are eligible for the draft obviously I was eligible and that I was old enough but the six foot eight being the top height you know when I was young we call it right was going to happen wasn't gonna happen and the the I just had to go
00:54:48by my %HESITATION my board and they said it yeah you're too tall and that was it yet so what point did you like your find yourself because you are the one thing that I I I didn't remember because I'm fifty three so I I I when I was
00:55:03young but you know the country is polarized now but like I didn't really understand the intensity or the scope of the polarization in the late sixties both around civil rights and the war and it seems that you know what we're living in now the country living in was
00:55:20really invented in relation to that war that those fights are the same fights that are going on now give the same the conflicts with regard to you know what is the future of America yeah yeah and when did you first what was the the the thing that kind
00:55:39of like you know blew your mind open about it you know becoming engaged in becoming that drove you to become engaged become active to become awake and and fighting I just felt that the you know black Americans had to get to a point where we had first class
00:55:55citizenship yeah second class citizenship sucks man and just having to always deferred because people don't think you're worthy yeah is %HESITATION it's it's horrible it it just repeats you at every turn and %HESITATION you can be your best mia and you know that that's one of the great
00:56:18things about America we all get a chance to a to do our thing in the give and give our best impression of of what our life should be about yeah and and that in you felt that in obviously is true to a large degree that that was not
00:56:33available in the same way for black Americans as it was for of Noel was and we had to we had to deferred to people who felt that %HESITATION we weren't worthy of being successful and the you know we had put an end to that when you %HESITATION converted
00:56:49to Islam what was it that that drove that decision I was raised a Roman Catholic you know Anna monotheism seem to make sense to me yeah but the you know the the the Roman Catholics the support of the slave trade Julia that that turned me off near so
00:57:08I wanted to to figure out you know what might not be a sick religion I could support that the didn't have that type of history where you had no you you always believe in god yeah I always believe in a supreme being seem to make sense to me
00:57:24yeah and that was it and that was it and that was that was that why that particular religion was a popular at the time as a as a as a statement or was it yeah there's that you could have become a Jew absolutely no additives but the you
00:57:41know it being of African descent yeah the mafia of theistic a religion that is most popular in in Africa it is flawed yeah in Islam has a great history in terms of what is contributed to world culture you know of mathematics and the physical sciences sure of extraordinary
00:58:02contributions for the Muslims the didn't starting medicine the renaissance absolutely started because so Europeans came into contact with the the scholarship of the of the Muslim world yeah yeah and they don't want to acknowledge right but when when you protest at the Olympics in sixty eight M. M.
00:58:24boycotted the Olympics what what happened when you did that a lot of people thought that there are we supposed to just be content to have access to playing in the NBA yeah you know I've posted make my money and keep my head down and and not to not
00:58:44complain about anything so they had expected that from Ali to write exactly out from all black people yeah so when you did that a was there what was the hostility did it come to did show up at the games and everything because not enough people were you know
00:59:00oftentimes pretty subtle with it you know yeah they didn't want to be too obvious with it because the they had seen the some of the negative aspects of white supremacy and there's no way people could defend right Intel now it's it seems to have made to you know
00:59:20a return yeah which is a heartbreaking awful yeah but that's what we got to deal with yet did you went went when what is happening is it now it happened did you did you was your initial response was like well now we can see him in the light
00:59:38because they've got a voice but they were always there yeah they're always there and it was the people seem to have forgotten that because the just since so much of a the past I I I I think certainly the Clinton administration and Obama's administration and they saw of
01:00:00minorities making a lot of headway and even even though I've been fortunate enough to to to do well yeah you still see with what's happening in the too many people can't find their way of you know out of the the things that keep pulling back with yeah and
01:00:19and and it becomes harder to date that when that young the ways if there are get shot off yeah in it was stiff No Way Out of this no way to no get your little piece of of sunshine right did you did you have did you have fun
01:00:35in the seventies yeah I did one of but it was a it was tough for a lot of it during that time the everybody just seem to want to question everything you know are they getting too much oh yeah yeah you know just because the as the various
01:00:55fell down for four black participation in American society it was questions yeah yeah now when you like it like I know that you've done a lot of different sort of %HESITATION I I kind of have a vague memory if you %HESITATION in a in some sort of martial
01:01:10arts the tire that you know was that something that you know was that something that you study would personally they are trying to prove any like that guy like I can eat like he died way too young but what what was he like to see now you baby
01:01:26sit you knew monk in the universe with these guys are like you know magicians their mistakes absolutely era and Bruce was great because he he felt that the you know the martial arts the should be practiced and learned by everybody he can he was going to teach just
01:01:42Chinese right knowing the kind of open it up like he opened it up is that I learned from everybody I teach everybody that that was his attitude he he he was awesome in that in that sense because the the martial arts of soul of tradition bound and you
01:01:55know that if you study like a a Korean system of martial arts that you're supposed to think that any other system sucks yeah you know and you can't learn from them and he was eclectic and the things that he chose to use the through the values what works
01:02:10for you that has to deal with your physique and your level of active athletic ability and you know just what you can learn and you've got to make it pragmatic for yourself were you in one of his movies I was in the game of death I think I
01:02:25can't like it's so it's why this wild that these are little flashes of you come back in my mind and moved us on TV shows so like was he like a philosophical guy or was he just a a physical like kind of %HESITATION was a philosophical guy he
01:02:39he got his degree from university of Washington in philosophy oh really yeah and you did you did you glean anything from what was a basic who was you know you've kind of like a a a modern day of a Taoist priest you know here just the the the
01:02:56the the pragmatic road to success and harmony you know that's that's more or less what he was and that was this trip yeah and do you still practice any discipline to some yoga via the yoga really helps and you don't on a train will bid and Jeff rope
01:03:13and you know try to stay in shape and not become a fat person the do you think that could happen to you no right now at this point yet never though yeah yeah when did you start writing I started writing really in grade school you know I I
01:03:28used to represent my school in essay contest none thought that I was that accomplished it was always some you want to do yeah I always enjoyed reading via and then I always had ideas about stories and some of the English major UCLA how were the authors that moved
01:03:46here first Robert Louis Stevenson's your budget Kipling you know those those guys stories yeah stories of a classic story sure yeah yeah kid that you know sure yeah yeah yeah for sure I'll yeah yeah yeah there's their struggle there's a swash buckling there's a you know there's a
01:04:05mystery everything and like there was a time there we were sort of hanging out with some of the like the like because it seems like in the seventies the the writers were like superstars like they you know they they were present in the cultural landscape that show but
01:04:18talk shows you know like an e-mail or in to lease and all those Cattleya at there was it as sort of like herb urbane intelligentsia that kind that hold on culture a little bit rear view and their voices what were important right and is especially a when it
01:04:33started with the the whole feminist movement yeah yeah women started to to change things for the better and we were like we hang out with those cats at all with the writers and do what you know I got to meet and know what a good police yeah yeah
01:04:47and it's gonna yeah yeah he wrote some pretty a provocative books the one I like to go through of payment fame and obscurity yeah what would you like that was just a different portraits of people you know that the Frank Sinatra the coldly brought about the the %HESITATION
01:05:03heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson who used to go around with disguises because he didn't want people to recognize them he does stuff like he wrote about the the building of the of Arizona narrows bridge yeah I know what it was all about just the different stuff that like really
01:05:19interested me that %HESITATION what how did it change your ideas about how your fame was playing out I mean you can't really did that but it just made me aware of things in the world that the you know I had no idea right right there there's a little
01:05:32nooks and crannies re like holy **** as his thoughts him pretty interesting stuff yeah indeed that is I would sort of sparked you to become more of a a cultural commentator you know explore the things that you explore and just you know the the things that make Michael
01:05:47you know holy one work what was that all about right in in so you're able to sort of like do that stuff I mean I could do like a book like profiles in courage and then to do the book about the at the tank for gay I mean
01:06:00these are historical elements that are you know that that a lot of people don't know about but were fascinating to you to me and and especially one about the tank battalion the seven sixty first tank battalion of one of the guys in there a Leonard smithy he received
01:06:15the bronze star just incredible combat record but the you know I remember when I was a little kid forward to a you know yet they're always acknowledging those guys that they're tremendous sacrifice in the guys the guys in the right and and the women and yeah you know
01:06:34Tom Brokaw does the the greatest generation into took knowledge yeah and here you have a group of them of black Americans who supported the war and use the war as a means to fight of Hitler and Jim crow yeah I went to see the screening of a documentary
01:06:55on the unit yeah then when I went this is in nineteen ninety two and I I I go there and there's Leonard Smith and I remember from when the last time I'd seen him I've been in high school right now right now I'm forty two years old now
01:07:10yeah and I I see Smitty omics many what do you do here and I find out he was in the seven sixty first tank battalion and then I watched a documentary and find out that the for the battle of the bulge and then was with Patton the the
01:07:24the first the allied units into Germany proper while they crossed the Rhine river for yeah and of they they cleaned out the Siegfried the the Siegfried line yeah Smitty was given the bronze star just I I had no idea how did well how did you know him from
01:07:40when you were younger he was a police officer with my father all my cat so I've known Smitty since I separate years old and he was just this guy that was kind of a crazy cop that the only out with my dad him my dad would go will
01:07:55hear the the big bands of you know wouldn't when they came to New York yeah you know all the bands that they like when they when they were younger so you know it Count Basie or Lionel Hampton came to New York of my dad and somebody will go
01:08:08down and and and hear them but no talk of war were to not talk where I I had no idea of what he's done I find on the web he won a bronze star and did your old man no you think he must alright but I did know
01:08:20so do you think it was one of those things where that like the adult guys didn't talk about it right they came home and just you know they were just glad to get home and got to work and got to work and it you know started doing things
01:08:32but the is not some it's amazing so like so now like when you see him again at that thing this whole other world opens up to you Ryan and you decide like white why doesn't everybody know about us so I had to do something and I are a
01:08:46wrote my book of brothers in arms so that the they are at their story would be told accurately because there were a few things in a documentary that that they got the confused %HESITATION yet completed some of the things yeah and how many of those guys were alive
01:09:01at the time were you able to talk to or they were about twenty or thirty of them this is like of no need in right after the two thousand yet are published a book in two thousand four yeah and the so there are a few of them still
01:09:17alive yet very few know they did right and they've all passed on those Smitty died of the year after I published a book he died in two thousand five sort of my father alright and so you know all of the guys in the unit have have died and
01:09:31passed on but that he was able to see the book yeah they were in and they really thank me they gave me a vague knowledge me for telling a story accurately aha there that's all they wanted United just wanted to have a toll accurately and and you got
01:09:46it yeah I I got it right thought Clinton gave one of the guys in the unit of the congressional medal of honor posthumously in the nineteen ninety eight or ninety nine that that was given to Ruben rivers yeah of Oklahoma yeah he was given a posthumous a congressional
01:10:03medal of honor is your book being read in schools now media is gone now but it was for sale on of all the P. exes in a lot of a lot of military people got got to read it away it did a lot of them have come and
01:10:16thank me you know so there are really enjoyed that it really helped me understand a lot about the what the black experience in in World War two was all about you know because the black Americans had had to fight for the right to fight wow you know and
01:10:33they finally did it and then at the war's over Truman %HESITATION integrated the armed forces and said that %HESITATION you know of segregated army is an inefficient army and we're not going to do that anymore well that's it that's one of the yeah that's one of the things
01:10:47I notice you you know that they kind of talk about the Vietnam documentaries that he spent a lot of time with it because it's Ken burns you know soon he does a pretty good job and you know he talked about how the other fragmentation and and the racial
01:11:02tension of the states you know once you got you know into into that **** that you know that stuff kinda that goes away right and you know it's like everybody just a person here right I think we all want it we all want to live surviving get right
01:11:18back you know to to America so it seems like also with the other book the the on the shoulders of giants a party your mission in life is to to sort of you know show you know black history for what it really is yelling and so of all
01:11:33of America that the black Americans have contributed so much to what makes America great yeah absolutely you know it's not like we're just here and you know occupying space you lose we've managed to to to make America a better place and what did you find what would you
01:11:50learn about that that that period the Harlem Renaissance a coat or just the the fact that the so many things that affected American culture in in the twentieth century started with the Harlem Renaissance you know starting with jazz music but to so many other things dance dance of
01:12:09the arts in general and and and I I guess literature as well those rural commentary cultural commentary and the fact that you know also into integrating sports and taking their own on a totally different the plane adding to the to the to its luster yeah yeah yeah I
01:12:30did you see that documented the I'm not your Negro this study that was extraordinary I talk to that guy role pack you know I've I've minimal fluid guy ha he's incredible god and but you know for me it it just I I needed to see that because it
01:12:45was like right after the %HESITATION the election and you know I was in town yeah I once saw that and I was like twelve it because you know when it when I was in the eighth grade a is when I first read James Baldwin became aware of them
01:12:57and he helped me understand things that my parents couldn't explain to me you know my parents couldn't articulate what was happening in America and why things were so bad for for black Americans they could not calculated we could see if we could see that we were you know
01:13:13oppressed but the the words to to express that you know my my parents weren't too good at that yeah and James Baldwin was able to like just define it and get people to understand of what it was about and how absolutely necessary was to to feed that it
01:13:31came to an end yeah and it what end and wouldn't amazing thinker yet the levels of of intellectual you know accu man was like mine well yeah like you know I watch a documentary and I was like I had to watch it two or three times but he
01:13:47adjusted to sort of even begin to take on the intellectual depth to the hair the tallest in the context yeah everything eight it's mind blowing man and when I had packing here I you know the thing that like struck me about that conversation was that you know he
01:14:01comes from Haiti so you know you know fighting the fight is something that you it's it's not taken for granted in any way nothing is ever accepted you're born into it and you got to push back the need to understand the commitment of that that's really the thing
01:14:18I I've seen %HESITATION John Lewis speak yeah and you know the he's not bitter about anything and he I mean he he had a concussion they could kill them when only cross the bridge yeah at Danny's he's he said look you know and your article can kill but
01:14:36the if you do not put your life on the line you are not committed to nonviolence right war we have in you know he he showed exactly how much did that that took you know he he said he has violence in one pocket and of an apple or
01:14:56something yeah in case he got hungry and he just saw what was coming in and button battened down but did not step backwards near the kind of courage man while it's wild right yeah in in in it's not it doesn't come easy and and in most people would
01:15:14rather not deal with it bright is it's so much easier not you know to let someone else yeah and wrote in his tell no one else is gone right right you put to it unless unless you understand that you can't say that you're committed him he made that
01:15:32very clear while when this happened when this election happened ya after eight years of of Obama and you know however you feel about him as a president he was a good president you know they have to have every president has his shortcomings in does things you don't like
01:15:46but you know it is a a cultural beacon of for the country went when this happened I mean what what was your first got reaction but my first gut reaction to trump election like I couldn't of I couldn't understand how he where they found the vote yeah you
01:16:07know because I thought that the most Americans were appalled at the who he was via but they weren't I mean if there were some Americans that were waiting for someone like that too to step forward why do you think that is I don't know yeah you know and
01:16:23it's it's like they resent the fact that the it seems to me that some people resent the fact that people of color or being given an equal chance to be successful that that to me king can reveal you know that they resent seeing of people of color doing
01:16:44well then they they think that they're supposed to do well before people of color maybe maybe that's it I I but did you write a bit about how like the the the the idea of of %HESITATION non white %HESITATION people outnumbering working people became sort of threatening it
01:17:06it's become threatening or all of it I think sometimes it has to do resentment that %HESITATION those people might have political power and we have to do something about it I I think that's what were we getting all this voter suppression efforts right by Republicans right %HESITATION they
01:17:26they just they don't like the fact that the the color of the people that are you know big accruing more power to it it bothers them that that that they're not white and wait wait so like after all this like you know when we talk about progress and
01:17:44when you talk about you know what you put your you what you did in the actions you took and people like Louis some people you know that have been fighting this fight forever when the this sort of push back and that sort of one step forward two steps
01:17:57back feeling of it you know what I you know I don't get out you know I don't have anything against people in Appalachia doing well yeah you know something happens where they get a a leg up and start to to do well I'm happy for them that that's
01:18:14great yet white why can't they feel that way about other segments of our society about the Hispanics or or black Americans or native Americans doing better and and %HESITATION everybody succeeding banks being successful in all I I I think good we all benefit from that yeah I do
01:18:32think that like it strikes me recently is that and it was sort of a a big epiphany oddly was at it just seems that eat outside of of just racism that that they have a very different idea of what America is supposed to be what democracy is supposed
01:18:53to be that the idea of the quality and diversity is not what it's supposed to be in their mind and yet they still think they're being patriotic Janay they they want to deny us access to certain segments of society because the they don't have more success I I
01:19:10I don't get that that that it makes no sense of resentment in spite his jealousy no envy it's it's %HESITATION it's a class issue at a lot of it right yeah there's race but there's also like poor people on either side are are have a difficult time right
01:19:26in and bought a lot of times people don't want to admit that they don't want to admit it all here you know this incident is ridiculous yeah so what was it like when you got given the opportunity to to be an ambassador for two administrations what was that
01:19:44responsibility to you I thought it was a great privilege and it reminded me of you know one of my heroes who yeah had a chance to do the same thing Louis Armstrong yeah and what what what was the activities what was the job in a way but just
01:19:59to explain what democracy is all about they are I I'm going to Brazil again you know the people in Brazil were like shocked that Obama got elected president they didn't think that democracy work like that of me so you know to see that happen in a in a
01:20:14black American got elected it it change your ideas about democracy their own potential that's interesting there was it's interesting too now that like you you know given yet the the other side of that that this is this guy that we have now was elected is also having you
01:20:32know re percussive ripples globally that but it's the opposite it's like all of that **** can happen in America we better you know make sure it doesn't happen here right because you know they get the wrong person at the at the wheel and that the country might be
01:20:48of a similar from you are familiar with Mohs Allison yeah yeah yeah somebody's always playing with dynamite so I don't worry about a thing cause I know nothing's going to come out right that's a good one so where else did you travel when you were when you were
01:21:07you were done and that was it and the and then what did that it what did Obama have you do %HESITATION nothing nothing to do I %HESITATION so well I I'm on the the coin commission which is people we are we suggest coin of themes for for coinage
01:21:28really yeah at it how do you get that gig are just I I'm I'm a coin collector and your yeah like still yeah what's the what's the fascination the faster I rid of Ron Turner's book on Hamilton and %HESITATION just saw what he did in putting together our
01:21:48fiscal policy and our monetary policy can realize the maybe I should have via gold coins American gold coins because of their own they represent something and I was able to right up for gold went from four hundred dollars an ounce up to twelve hundred dollars an ounce fell
01:22:09and he even made some money on a yeah got some gold in a way it went down now it's up again has opened a but I I saw a documentary once and how they secured currency and it blew my mind like it was all about like that basically
01:22:23it starts with the recipe for the paper of American currency and how you know at that level how do we secure that it's a very it's a specific recipe it's pope and it's a it's come some of it comes from cotton and they have the little blue and
01:22:37red strands in there and then you got to do the watermarking I was like I was just fascinated with the effort that went into guaranteeing that the currency stands for something yeah and so can become right exactly it was just like the thought process that went into it
01:22:51kind of blew my mind yeah so what are some of the ideas for coinage just the they are wanted to we we do the coins and medals that they set the United States produces what in get I know nothing to support the they they have a metal so
01:23:10you mean that are given to people that are given to people and they all our citizens can buy you can buy metals yeah and %HESITATION like silver and silver and gold medal for with different themes on what what date did you get did any of your ideas get
01:23:25to under the metals known but you know it's it's it's interesting just to learn the process yeah yeah now do you know when did you stop the %HESITATION showing up on TV shows and stuff Mike as an actor when the that kind because you thought you know while
01:23:41I was playing you know I was still is still in the eighties and they don't don't have rules for guys that is seven feet tall your your voting airplane come on now is playing myself you don't have to play yourself now I write and alone can be behind
01:24:00the camera and at my pad writing stories it's it's a lot better that I'm I'm enjoying a writing and the how does a detective books do you have a choice in their written for what they feel for teenagers primarily no no no I I the of book I
01:24:15wrote is about the Sherlock Holmes older brother Mycroft is basically his backstory oh yeah that's interesting because that's a different angle because some people have done avid pro check before you know the the side stories of homes you know here's a sort of a new one yeah good
01:24:30the way it came together was if you read our current oil he only mentions Sherlock's brother a couple of times slightly to seven times in passing yet in it but it says about him he he %HESITATION was really something in the British government and that sort of certain
01:24:49moments he was the British government so you know he's a powerful somebody in inverse government any in any help for a locker at various times because of his position right right but that's that's all you know about so you have you got to build a whole I built
01:25:03the whole back story you know yeah and that that was the first book in of the second book comes out the this fall and how they receive good the first one was received well I I I was shocked arm think the character of Sherlock Holmes was based on
01:25:20a doctor that Arthur Conan Doyle new yeah hunter was an ophthalmologist he knew another doctor named Joseph bell who was able if he looked at you he could just tell from your clothing and you know just what he could observe about you a lot of a lot about
01:25:36you yet just noticing yeah yes the suit on your shoes or or certain yeah okay Zach gag he he could reject he could read her like that and it was a doctor %HESITATION that Arthur Conan Doyle yeah and that that was the root of it that was approved
01:25:53for for Charlotte yeah sure what could just put all these things together and and knowing how much about you yeah immediately and had to do with his knowledge of a chemistry and all kinds of yeah arcane thing yeah but the it is it's just it's it's fun for
01:26:08me I I I enjoy it I I've enjoyed so all the stuff I've read by John lecarre in you like that stuff on Walter Mosely a Raymond Chandler and all those guys how long do you write every day not every day on it sometimes I I have other
01:26:23Simon so I have to do articles so I read a piece you wrote on girls that was good that was a that was tight yeah just a few things few things I liked about girls a few things that the I was critical about the dumbest Dunham has done
01:26:39a great job with that area and how how's your how's your health my health is the is pretty good yeah from the pretty good shape yeah and right now I I you know I remember when you had it when I'm at what a quadruple bypass yeah two years
01:26:52ago wolf I can imagine men I just the found out that my %HESITATION my heart arteries were a five star hotel for plaque yeah you just found out I just I just I found out two years ago and I had no idea to my other little makers when
01:27:13they call the widow maker that was one hundred percent plus all my cat had blockages one hundred eighty and then one hundred eight one hundred eighty percent eighty percent sixty percent but had you been what they had you get do you have high cholesterol no you didn't you
01:27:29have no high cut cholesterol there's nothing wrong with my heart so what the doc say how that happened some people for our arteries are just the the perfect place for a plaque for the black to collect because I went got one this calcium scanned just recently just because
01:27:48that someone said I could just go do it and I got a little in there got a little in yeah I got it won't kill you if you know the right things are are done are done here so when like I notice when letterman had his that did
01:28:02you find it did it change your emotionally to change it did you wake up feel more sensitive for more like life with one or have you actually you feel more vulnerable right don't you get depressed at times just realizing that the I think it the things that can
01:28:20go wrong will go wrong yeah yeah it's a never think that that's going to happen to you out yeah and and this is the it does not have a son of one of my sons is of a physician here and don't worry about it your lean you exercise
01:28:34eat right before that thing before and are one in a said you got all these blockages the room my my my son is not but maybe I might need a stent or something here but the they haven't done yet they they had to do the whole thing yeah
01:28:50so what is your date it well how do you how are you approaching the the the day to day fight of this is that you know what's coming and she now as a as a an American Muslim man as a black man like on a day to day
01:29:05basis how much **** are you getting if it's not too bad now because of Muslims in America or or waking up to the fact that they have to engage in an effort to let people know what they're about there's nothing wrong with Islam of it some of the
01:29:24people who are interpreting it in bizarre and extreme more ways that that are the problem and we can only do that that has happened though we we have that the example here in our country of a group called the Ku Klux Klan that claim to be the the
01:29:40Christian knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the terrorists man and you know they terrorized blacks and Jews and other minorities so you know we we have to understand what things actually are and and deal with them for what they are if we can do that %HESITATION no
01:29:57we will get lost in you know arguing about things you just got to protect everybody and of might make the constitution of a real living document that that protects and enables all Americans to succeed on a day to day basis what hat what's what's your sort of a
01:30:15with you what's your process you do what do you do you exercise you write a little bit you do you think well you know if I have a writing assignment on a try to deal with that but the you know I just try to take care of myself
01:30:27with me and work a little bit in the morning in the I have a granddaughter known show really horrible that's great graduations thank you how old she is two and a half now it's exciting that must bring a lot of love and joy yet to see a man
01:30:41who helps me keep things in balance do you go out and speak at all do you go to schools or anything none at schools but the you know I I've via I've been our work for pharmaceutical companies sometimes and talk to patients that have leukemia I have I'm
01:30:55of the opinion survivor I talk to them about the K. fought some fights are here too yeah how do you how do you get there we came in to check fortunately I have the type that I have a chronic myeloid leukemia and I I can treat it and
01:31:12so you go offer some support and give each tell people about their options via and just let them know that they're not alone and think they can beat it and how do you feel as if you'll help Karim absolutely NO I I know this whole because you don't
01:31:27remember when we talked earlier about of James Baldwin I am not in it may just remember made me remember how bad things were and there are a lot worse than they are now here so you know we just have to re write the ship and get it back
01:31:43to where it needs to be all right well thanks for talking to me that it was a wonderful I'm glad you came was nice talking with the okay that's it that's it those get these intense very tall the very tall man %HESITATION yeah almost said that his head
01:32:06on the ceiling of the garage so I will talk to you Thursday I will play guitar through I think a new I just been like I as if you've been keeping up with this portion I've been just plugging in these pedals that I don't know what they do
01:32:18this is an earthquake or transmit Sir it's kind of haunting haunting sound and well Merle as

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