Full Transcript for How to Write Many Genres Well with Ann Aguirre

00:03:57.879 It was fun. 79 00:03:57.900 --> 00:03:58.460 Maybe I'll revisit that. 80 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.520 You kind of embodied the part I felt. 81 00:04:01.180 --> 00:04:03.599 I don't think anybody, I think I just scared the kids. 82 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.650 Maybe I should not try to do the character. 83 00:04:06.669 --> 00:04:14.250 All right. Speaking of nothing, that's the worst segue ever. 84 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:21.139 But in the interview today, we're talking with Anne Aguirre, 85 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:25.670 who is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling 86 00:04:25.730 --> 00:04:29.769 author of many books, most recently the Hocus Pocus Handbook, 87 00:04:30.209 --> 00:04:34.730 which is sort of a mystery comedy romance. We'll talk 88 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:37.189 to her about her new offering and all her many 89 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:53.759 other books. But first, the news. News story number one, 90 00:04:54.699 --> 00:05:01.279 agencies are resigning from the AALA as agents are changing 91 00:05:01.339 --> 00:05:04.389 the ethics code. Now, those of you who listen to 92 00:05:04.430 --> 00:05:08.449 the podcast regularly may already understand what we're talking about. 93 00:05:08.910 --> 00:05:15.709 AALA is the American Literary Association of American Literary Agents. Remember, 94 00:05:15.769 --> 00:05:19.300 all reputable organization, all reputable agents are going to be 95 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:24.339 members of. But as we covered earlier this year, they 96 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:28.600 are rewriting their ethics codes. And the one that's drawing 97 00:05:28.660 --> 00:05:33.740 attention is the provision that allows, under some circumstances, for 98 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:41.339 literary agencies to take money from their clients. The problem 99 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.860 that's really bothering people, I think, is the idea of 100 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:48.259 agents being able to charge editing fees. Like you submit 101 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:52.480 your manuscript, they edit it, you pay them, and then 102 00:05:52.740 --> 00:05:57.220 submit that revised manuscript to the agent who may or 103 00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.279 may not be inclined to take it. They've already got 104 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:03.569 your money. Anyway, this doesn't sound right. And at least 105 00:06:03.750 --> 00:06:07.170 one agency has resigned in protest, and I think many 106 00:06:07.310 --> 00:06:10.959 others will in the future. This is a quote from 107 00:06:11.060 --> 00:06:15.230 the press release they released, and I apologize if I'm 108 00:06:15.269 --> 00:06:20.689 mispronouncing names. Quote, Distell, Gutterich, and Barrett has made the 109 00:06:20.750 --> 00:06:25.480 difficult decision to resign from membership in the AALA. We 110 00:06:25.569 --> 00:06:28.819 firmly believe that literary agents need to be held to 111 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:33.959 high ethical standards in their dealings with authors. To us,

112 00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:36.930 that means there must be no conflict of interest in 113 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:39.680 the services we provide to And now I'm going to 114 00:06:39.740 --> 00:06:44.899 skip ahead where they say we cannot support these things, including, quote, 115 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:49.670 the new canon allows agents who have separate editorial businesses 116 00:06:50.110 --> 00:06:54.850 to charge editorial fees with the potential. It may or 117 00:06:54.889 --> 00:06:58.009 may not happen, but it could happen with the potential 118 00:06:58.069 --> 00:07:02.879 to then sign those authors as clients and retain their fees. 119 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:07.040 That's what's really bothering them. Laura, you've worked as an 120 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:12.189 editor before. though I suspect you've never edited someone and 121 00:07:12.230 --> 00:07:15.149 then offered to agent them or publish them. 122 00:07:16.069 --> 00:07:17.250 What do you think about this? 123 00:07:19.569 --> 00:07:21.980 It feels a little wrong. It feels a little dubious 124 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.160 to me. I thought the idea was that if someone 125 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.240 believed in your project, they would take it on and 126 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:33.180 then work with you to the fruition of that book. 127 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.480 I'd say, yeah. Conflict of interest is what was running 128 00:07:38.500 --> 00:07:42.019 through my head as well, which I heard you saying 129 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.279 in their press release too. It seems like, I mean, 130 00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:49.259 if somebody wants to edit on the side, fine, that's great. 131 00:07:49.379 --> 00:07:52.949 But it just doesn't seem right to say, why don't 132 00:07:52.990 --> 00:07:55.170 you pay me to edit it? And then I'll think 133 00:07:55.230 --> 00:07:57.810 about taking it to see if we can get it 134 00:07:57.850 --> 00:07:59.490 picked up somewhere by a publisher. 135 00:08:00.129 --> 00:08:05.439 That is what's bothering people for sure. um it seems 136 00:08:05.500 --> 00:08:08.120 like uh and i understand where this is coming from 137 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:11.579 because a lot of literary agents are scrambling right now 138 00:08:11.850 --> 00:08:16.310 right self-publishing has become so endemic that people no longer 139 00:08:16.370 --> 00:08:18.970 need the gatekeeper to get published. 140 00:08:18.850 --> 00:08:20.209 I mean you do if you want to be in 141 00:08:20.250 --> 00:08:20.709 the big. 142 00:08:20.589 --> 00:08:25.089 Five publishers but not for a smaller publisher not for 143 00:08:25.110 --> 00:08:30.089 a self-publisher so they're looking for new revenue streams but 144 00:08:30.269 --> 00:08:33.860 jesse is this kind of like uh you offering to 145 00:08:33.899 --> 00:08:36.970 record somebody's audio book for a fee. And then if 146 00:08:37.019 --> 00:08:40.350 it turns out well, you offer to publish it or. 147 00:08:39.929 --> 00:08:41.509 Something like that. Yeah. 148 00:08:41.549 --> 00:08:43.929 The part that's missing is if you're going to offer 149 00:08:43.950 --> 00:08:47.370 this to an author, you have to also, you also 150 00:08:47.450 --> 00:08:49.409 have to be their agent. Like it has to be, 151 00:08:49.909 --> 00:08:52.019 I understand wanting to bring everything sort of in house, 152 00:08:52.700 --> 00:08:54.279 which I feel like it kind of was already. Like 153 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:57.120 if you've got an agent and they decided to, represent you, 154 00:08:57.129 --> 00:08:59.340 they would help you find an editor who they probably 155 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:01.059 also either already knew or was. 156 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:01.679 In their agency. 157 00:09:02.139 --> 00:09:04.779 But this feels like bringing all the different parts of 158 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:09.539 book publishing into agencies, which is not necessarily what they 159 00:09:09.580 --> 00:09:10.659 were originally designed to do. 160 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:14.759 Well, the agency could accept the client first and then 161 00:09:14.950 --> 00:09:18.450 edit their manuscript, but could they charge for it? Because 162 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:22.350 the agent's payment for whatever they do is supposed to 163 00:09:22.370 --> 00:09:24.769 be the 10 to 20% that they're taking from you 164 00:09:24.889 --> 00:09:25.870 once they've sold the book. 165 00:09:26.250 --> 00:09:30.090 Yeah, so yeah, that gets weird and awkward for sure. 166 00:09:30.129 --> 00:09:36.500 Yeah, complicated. News story number two. Amazon KDP, that's the 167 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:42.299 agency through which self-publishers often self-publish their books to Amazon. 168 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:48.350 KDP is now limiting authors to a mere two titles 169 00:09:48.909 --> 00:09:54.669 per week per format. Format meaning paperback, hardcover, e-book. You're 170 00:09:54.690 --> 00:09:57.639 going to have two paperbacks a week, two new hardcovers 171 00:09:57.700 --> 00:09:59.509 a week, two new e-books. 172 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:01.799 Only two. 173 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.820 This probably relates to, you remember the story earlier this 174 00:10:07.860 --> 00:10:11.340 year where we found out that four million books were 175 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:14.860 published at Amazon last year, and at least three million 176 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:20.210 of them were AI written. And so now we're Amazon 177 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:23.769 is not striking a blow against AI. They're okay with 178 00:10:23.970 --> 00:10:26.850 IA written books in the whole or part. Although if 179 00:10:26.889 --> 00:10:29.879 you admit it, they will post that on your sales page. 180 00:10:31.019 --> 00:10:34.879 But now perhaps because there's just too many of them, 181 00:10:35.259 --> 00:10:38.820 they're limiting you to two titles a week to quote, 182 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.340 help maintain a positive publishing experience for authors, which I 183

00:10:43.379 --> 00:10:48.200 guess means not making a so cluttered. Nobody can find anything. 184 00:10:49.009 --> 00:10:52.820 I mean, in 2025, they set the limit to only 185 00:10:52.820 --> 00:10:56.799 10 titles per week, but apparently that wasn't enough to 186 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:01.320 stop some people, so now it's two a week. I mean, 187 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:05.029 the only way anybody could write two books a week 188 00:11:05.690 --> 00:11:09.789 is if they're churning out complete garbage that's unedited or 189 00:11:09.909 --> 00:11:16.789 if they're using AI. And even if you're writing by AI, seriously, 190 00:11:16.889 --> 00:11:20.570 more than two a week? Jesse, has the time come 191 00:11:20.610 --> 00:11:27.269 when we need to distinguish established publishers from people who 192 00:11:27.289 --> 00:11:30.529 are publishing themselves? One of the things I like about 193 00:11:30.570 --> 00:11:34.799 the internet is that it's not snob publisher focused. Most 194 00:11:34.820 --> 00:11:38.700 people don't even notice the publishing house. But maybe we 195 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:42.779 need to. We're going to need some way to distinguish 196 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.690 a real book from a book from somebody who's AI 197 00:11:47.750 --> 00:11:49.789 generating several things a week, don't we? 198 00:11:50.210 --> 00:11:50.409 Yes. 199 00:11:50.450 --> 00:11:52.710 Well, this is the problem where the only gatekeeper that 200 00:11:52.750 --> 00:11:56.759 now exists is the seller. And the seller doesn't really 201 00:11:56.820 --> 00:11:59.960 have a motivation to limit these things. And so it 202 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.120 has to be pressure by us, the customers, to tell 203 00:12:03.179 --> 00:12:08.259 Amazon to stop it, right? And again, I would love 204 00:12:08.299 --> 00:12:12.990 to hear Amazon's answer for why they moved that one 205 00:12:13.029 --> 00:12:16.370 limit from like six months ago to this limit, because 206 00:12:16.409 --> 00:12:21.019 this is still an unnatural limit. No one, not even 207 00:12:21.059 --> 00:12:24.940 James Patterson is releasing two titles a week, maybe 2000 208 00:12:24.940 --> 00:12:25.259 a month. 209 00:12:26.259 --> 00:12:26.460 Right. 210 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:29.320 There might be some publishing houses that do. 211 00:12:29.779 --> 00:12:30.159 Yeah. 212 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.379 Yeah. Publishing houses can release more. 213 00:12:33.620 --> 00:12:33.960 Yeah. 214 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:36.799 But the question that you're asking is, okay, have we 215 00:12:36.820 --> 00:12:40.470 come full circle again? Are we back to saying, nevermind, 216 00:12:40.509 --> 00:12:46.490 we only want to have, actual reputable publishers set up. 217 00:12:46.529 --> 00:12:50.190 We were happy that we had additional ways to bring 218 00:12:50.210 --> 00:12:52.269 more books into the world, but now it's opened the 219 00:12:52.289 --> 00:12:57.440 door for AI slop and garbage that nobody wants. This 220 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.759 is why we can't have nice things. Somebody will always 221 00:13:00.820 --> 00:13:03.620 take advantage of it. Somebody will always ruin it. 222 00:13:04.659 --> 00:13:08.220 Amazon's in a terrible spot here. It's a spot of 223 00:13:08.259 --> 00:13:14.049 their own making, but again, what is their desire and 224 00:13:14.110 --> 00:13:18.049 reason to limit the amount of books sold on Amazon. 225 00:13:18.090 --> 00:13:20.909 They make a bit from every book, whether it's AI 226 00:13:21.129 --> 00:13:25.110 slop or not. So for them, it's all PR at 227 00:13:25.149 --> 00:13:27.289 this point. And so the only way to make them 228 00:13:27.470 --> 00:13:30.870 really spend time looking at what they're publishing is to 229 00:13:31.169 --> 00:13:33.269 yell at them about it. And I imagine that's probably 230 00:13:33.289 --> 00:13:35.370 what happened and why this limit got changed so quickly 231 00:13:35.429 --> 00:13:36.090 after the last one. 232 00:13:37.190 --> 00:13:37.850 Probably right. 233 00:13:38.769 --> 00:13:41.649 But it's an opportunity, Laura. You think you can come 234 00:13:41.710 --> 00:13:42.710 up with two books a week? 235 00:13:44.529 --> 00:13:47.039 You know the answer to that. Absolutely not. 236 00:13:47.049 --> 00:13:49.669 I'm not sure I could come up with two good premises, 237 00:13:49.750 --> 00:13:54.360 you know, and then tell AI to go write two 238 00:13:54.700 --> 00:13:57.820 new premises a week. I mean, gee whiz. 239 00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:58.679 Yeah. 240 00:13:59.379 --> 00:14:02.000 Doesn't seem possible somehow. 241 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:02.419 No. 242 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:06.279 At my best, I could do about a book a year. 243 00:14:07.549 --> 00:14:10.669 And we know AI is reading all that garbage, so 244 00:14:10.889 --> 00:14:13.049 AI is just going to get worse and worse as 245 00:14:13.129 --> 00:14:14.509 it reads more of itself. 246 00:14:14.570 --> 00:14:15.129 More and more garbage. 247 00:14:15.190 --> 00:14:18.809 What's going to happen to humans if people grow up 248 00:14:18.950 --> 00:14:23.480 reading stuff on that level? Will they even appreciate a 249 00:14:23.500 --> 00:14:24.460 good book? 250 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:25.419 Nothing good. 251 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:25.879 Yeah. No. Yeah. 252 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:27.519 All right. 253 00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:30.799 In Craft Corner today, we have a return visit from 254 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.620 Marty Ludlam, who will discuss how to plant a mini 255 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:36.490 mystery inside your story. 256 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:38.620 What is a mini mystery? 257 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:42.759 Well, he will explain. By the way, for those of 258 00:14:42.820 --> 00:14:46.139 you who, well, are or are not watching the video 259 00:14:46.179 --> 00:14:50.330 version of this on YouTube, Marty wanted to use slides. 260 00:14:50.429 --> 00:14:55.830 So instead of his, you know, handsome face

speaking, as 261 00:14:55.870 --> 00:14:58.720 you normally see in Craft Corner, this time you're going 262 00:14:58.740 --> 00:14:59.620 to see his slides. 263 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:01.100 Okay? Enjoy. 264 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:06.000 Craft Corner. 265 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:13.840 Welcome. Today we're talking about how readers love a mini-mystery. 266 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:19.159 What's a mini-mystery? Well, I'm glad you asked. I'm Marty Ludlam. 267 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.399 I wrote the Disco Diva series. I hope you enjoy those. 268 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.500 The first one is At First I Was Afraid. Yes, 269 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:32.600 there's a disco reference there. Out by Babylon Books. The second, 270 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.340 She Works Hard for the Money, also by Babylon Books. 271 00:15:37.940 --> 00:15:42.289 Both of those are available on my website, LudlumBooks.net. They're 272 00:15:42.309 --> 00:15:45.570 also available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and everywhere you 273 00:15:45.610 --> 00:15:52.250 buy books. Now, you might think, wait a second, I 274 00:15:52.309 --> 00:15:56.940 don't write mysteries. Don't worry, we can't all be perfect. 275 00:15:58.009 --> 00:16:01.240 But to be honest, this idea is broader than just 276 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.659 a story that the entire plotline revolves around a mystery. 277 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:08.100 It's a mini-mystery. It's a little scene where you leave 278 00:16:08.139 --> 00:16:15.159 something out for the readers. Readers love to be, or guess, 279 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.370 one step ahead of the author. They love to figure 280 00:16:18.450 --> 00:16:21.470 out who the bad guy is, or what is happening 281 00:16:21.570 --> 00:16:26.029 in a scene, even before the reader reveals it. We 282 00:16:26.070 --> 00:16:29.870 all love that euphoric feeling. Now, how do you create this? 283 00:16:31.350 --> 00:16:36.450 The easiest way, no dialogue, no words between the parties. 284 00:16:37.289 --> 00:16:40.309 Nobody says anything. They say things, you just can't hear it. 285 00:16:40.929 --> 00:16:43.149 And the easy way to set this up as a 286 00:16:43.190 --> 00:16:46.279 writer is your point of view narrator, whoever that is 287 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.639 at the moment, whether it's the hero or the villain 288 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:53.399 or someone else, that person is far enough away from 289 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:56.659 the action to see it, but not hear the words. 290 00:16:57.230 --> 00:17:00.259 And as a result, they've got to describe what they see, 291 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:05.500 and then the reader follows their conclusion. This is a 292 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:10.500 puzzle readers love to do. I'll give you two quick 293 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.029 examples to show you this in action. Scene 1. Boy 294 00:17:15.069 --> 00:17:18.829 and a girl. Boy gets down on one knee, pulls 295 00:17:18.890 --> 00:17:22.410 a little velvet box out of his pocket. The

girl 296 00:17:22.450 --> 00:17:26.960 steps back, rushes her hands to her face. Now we 297 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.799 know something's going on, but we can't hear what anybody's saying. 298 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.490 Now this scene can go one of two ways. So again, 299 00:17:34.569 --> 00:17:39.210 this is our same setup. Boys on one knee, girls 300 00:17:39.250 --> 00:17:44.769 hands to her face. In the first ending, she throws 301 00:17:44.809 --> 00:17:48.549 her arms around the boy's neck. They hug, they kiss, 302 00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:52.490 they start jumping up and down. That might be a 303 00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:55.460 different ending for that same scene. So again, the same scene. 304 00:17:56.690 --> 00:17:59.940 Boy goes down on one knee, girl's hands rush to 305 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.319 her face. She takes a step back, and another step back, 306 00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:10.220 and walks quickly away. The boy stands up, puts the 307 00:18:10.259 --> 00:18:12.910 little velvet box back in his pocket, and walks the 308 00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:16.549 other way. Now, in neither one of those did you 309 00:18:16.609 --> 00:18:20.650 have a single syllable of dialogue that you heard. But 310 00:18:20.690 --> 00:18:24.690 you know exactly what happened. That's what I mean by mini-mystery. 311 00:18:24.910 --> 00:18:27.710 You don't have to have all the he said, she said, 312 00:18:27.789 --> 00:18:31.329 he said, she said. You don't even need the dialogue. 313 00:18:31.529 --> 00:18:36.059 From your description, they know this was a proposal. And 314 00:18:36.099 --> 00:18:39.559 in the first ending, she said yes. And in the 315 00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:46.259 second ending, she didn't. Yeah. Powerful, powerful. And to be honest, 316 00:18:46.299 --> 00:18:51.339 the words only slow the story down. Think you got it? 317 00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:56.670 Let's look at one more example. Hospital waiting room. 318 00:18:57.349 --> 00:18:57.650 Yuck. 319 00:18:58.269 --> 00:19:03.470 Aniseptic. Uncomfortable. A man and a woman sit side by side, quietly. 320 00:19:04.930 --> 00:19:09.069 Doctor in scrubs enters the room, his forehead damp from sweat. 321 00:19:09.630 --> 00:19:13.430 He walks up to the couple, and they stand. Think 322 00:19:13.470 --> 00:19:16.410 we know what's going on? Well, again, we could have 323 00:19:16.450 --> 00:19:21.150 different endings. In our first one, again, Doctor approaches, forehead 324 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:24.849 damp from sweat. The couple stand. The doctor says a 325 00:19:24.890 --> 00:19:30.589 few words. The woman hugs him vigorously. The man hugs 326 00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:35.970 them both. The man and woman hug. The man shakes 327 00:19:36.109 --> 00:19:40.299 the doctor's hand vigorously. The woman hugs the doctor one 328 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.420 more time, and then the doctor leaves. We know what happened. 329 00:19:45.460 --> 00:19:48.359 But there could be a different ending. In that same scene, 330 00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:55.200 the doctor walks up, head damp from sweat. The couple stand. 331 00:19:56.140 --> 00:19:59.619 The doctor says a few words. The woman falls to 332 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:04.289 her knees. The man goes down to his knees, hug 333 00:20:04.309 --> 00:20:07.289 the woman. The doctor says a few more words and 334 00:20:07.349 --> 00:20:12.900 walks away. Again, in both of those endings, in neither 335 00:20:12.980 --> 00:20:15.960 one of them did you get a single word of vocabulary. 336 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:20.960 No dialogue between them. But you know exactly what happened. 337 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:25.670 That's the power of that mini-mystery. Your description tells the 338 00:20:25.730 --> 00:20:29.589 reader what happened, even though they couldn't hear a single 339 00:20:29.630 --> 00:20:34.470 word anyone was saying. Trust me when I say readers love, love, 340 00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:37.940 love to be able to figure out these puzzles. They 341 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.819 love to know what's going on or have a guess. 342 00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:45.200 And again, sometimes they enjoy also being wrong, but they 343 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.640 love being able to predict what happened instead of you 344 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:54.160 just flatly saying, the butler did it. Give your readers 345 00:20:54.220 --> 00:20:57.240 a chance to solve a mini-mystery. Again, the easy way, 346 00:20:57.990 --> 00:21:01.410 develop a scene, no dialogue, so the reader has to 347 00:21:01.549 --> 00:21:06.049 guess what's being said. Your readers will love it. My 348 00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:10.160 little hint, Make it a scene that has a strong emotion, 349 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:18.240 either positive or negative. Makes it easier. Questions? Anything else? 350 00:21:18.569 --> 00:21:22.589 Contact me, Marty Ludlam, the writer at Gmail. If not, 351 00:21:22.630 --> 00:21:23.950 I'll see everybody next time. 352 00:21:24.670 --> 00:21:24.930 Thanks. 353 00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:41.400 Thanks, Marty. Now let's talk to Anne Aguirre. Anne Aguirre, 354 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:42.920 welcome to the podcast. 355 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:47.720 Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to 356 00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:48.170 be here. 357 00:21:49.230 --> 00:21:53.329 We are very privileged and happy and honored to have you. Okay, 358 00:21:53.490 --> 00:21:57.670 here's our traditional first question. If you could offer writers 359 00:21:58.089 --> 00:22:00.250 one piece of advice, and at this point you could 360 00:22:00.289 --> 00:22:05.019 probably offer a lot, but pick one. What's the top 361 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.039 piece of advice you'd offer writers? 362 00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:11.930 Believe in yourself. There may be people who tell you 363 00:22:11.950 --> 00:22:16.720 that you have to have a platform already or you 364 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:19.960 need to be rich or you need to be well-connected. 365 00:22:20.039

--> 00:22:22.640 You need to know people in the industry. There are 366 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:25.819 always going to be people who don't want you to 367 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.160 succeed because they have given up on their own dreams. 368 00:22:30.450 --> 00:22:33.460 I cannot guarantee you that you will succeed if you 369 00:22:33.500 --> 00:22:36.920 keep trying. But if you quit, if you give up 370 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:39.839 on yourself, I do guarantee that you will fail. 371 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:43.160 Great advice. 372 00:22:43.180 --> 00:22:47.480 Let's talk about your journey a little bit. Did you 373 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:49.349 always want to be a writer? I know you've done 374 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:52.890 other things. I read that you were a voice actress and, 375 00:22:53.450 --> 00:22:58.980 more disturbingly, a clown at some point. Were you a 376 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:03.440 friendly bozo type clown or an evil Pennywise type clown? 377 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.880 Well, I have had other jobs, but I did always 378 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.119 want to be a writer. I wouldn't say that I 379 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:17.049 have ever wanted to be a clown. I actually have 380 00:23:17.170 --> 00:23:23.690 mild chlorophobia, which made it even more traumatizing. Do you 381 00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:26.089 want the clown story or do you want. 382 00:23:26.109 --> 00:23:26.630 Oh, let's hear it. 383 00:23:27.170 --> 00:23:27.369 Yeah. 384 00:23:27.730 --> 00:23:27.970 Okay. 385 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:30.410 I think the listeners would not forgive me if I 386 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:31.869 said no to the clown story. 387 00:23:33.410 --> 00:23:37.839 So basically my sister was a clown and she was 388 00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:42.039 doing really well with it. And she actually took like 389 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:46.200 a training course in how to clown. And she did 390 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:50.119 it as a freelance business. She did birthdays. She did 391 00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:54.799 grand openings of like gas stations or supermarkets and where 392 00:23:54.859 --> 00:23:58.269 she would blow up balloons and give away snacks and 393 00:23:58.549 --> 00:24:02.250 just that type of thing. And she was doing so 394 00:24:02.289 --> 00:24:04.710 well that she had more business than she knew what 395 00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:08.210 to do with. And for some reason, do not ask 396 00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:11.170 me why only my sister would know this. She had 397 00:24:11.190 --> 00:24:15.269 an extra clown suit. And so she just gave me 398 00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:17.829 the clown suit one day and was like, put this on. 399 00:24:17.950 --> 00:24:20.750 I have a booking. I can't do it. And I 400 00:24:20.789 --> 00:24:23.789 was like, I do not want to do this. And 401 00:24:23.829 --> 00:24:27.549 then she was like, I'll give you $ 40. And back 402 00:24:27.589 --> 00:24:31.940 in the day, I was earning like $ 3 an hour. 403 00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:34.240 And I was like, how long do I have to 404 00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:37.119 wear it? Like maybe two hours. Okay, I am going 405 00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:40.599 to wear the clown suit. So once I agreed to 406 00:24:40.660 --> 00:24:43.180 put on the clown suit, I kept putting on the 407 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.079 clown suit. And when I went back to college, I 408 00:24:46.460 --> 00:24:51.240 did appearances. As a clown, and it was very funny 409 00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:57.240 because I drove a 1984 Plymouth Horizon bright orange, which 410 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.849 is essentially a tiny little hatchback. It was literally a 411 00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:05.150 clown car. And when you're doing gas station grand openings 412 00:25:05.289 --> 00:25:07.539 in a clown car. it's not like they have a 413 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:09.940 green room for you to get dressed in. So I 414 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:12.869 had to put on the full outfit and do my 415 00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:15.710 makeup in my apartment. So I'll be driving down the 416 00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:18.910 highway in my little clown car on my way to 417 00:25:18.950 --> 00:25:22.470 the gas station grand opening. And I just got so 418 00:25:22.509 --> 00:25:25.349 many looks and people doing double takes as I'm driving. 419 00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:29.230 And I would just be like, Wow. 420 00:25:30.009 --> 00:25:34.269 But since you gave up the world of clowning, and 421 00:25:34.430 --> 00:25:38.529 started writing, you have had tremendous success. You've hit all 422 00:25:38.589 --> 00:25:41.410 kinds of lists, New York Times, USA Today. You've written 423 00:25:41.450 --> 00:25:45.200 about every genre there is to write, it appears to me. 424 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:46.200 Do you have a favorite? 425 00:25:47.059 --> 00:25:52.079 Whatever I am writing and enjoying is my current favorite. 426 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:59.569 I have a brain that is very eclectic, I'll say. 427 00:25:59.829 --> 00:26:04.299 Are you familiar with the dog from Up, Doug? who 428 00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:08.160 said squirrel and then chases something in a different, in 429 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:12.190 a direction. That's what my brain does. So I will 430 00:26:12.309 --> 00:26:15.890 write a particular genre until it stops being fun. And 431 00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:18.589 then my brain will have a very squirrel idea and 432 00:26:19.109 --> 00:26:21.769 then I will chase it. And I have been very 433 00:26:21.829 --> 00:26:25.539 fortunate to turn those squirrel tendencies into a career. 434 00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:30.589 Well, tell us about the latest, Squirrel Chasing Adventure, your 435 00:26:30.630 --> 00:26:35.619 newest book, The Hocus Pocus Handbook. That sounds so fun. 436 00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:36.420 I want to hear about this. 437 00:26:37.849 --> 00:26:41.759 Well, it is actually part of a duology. Both books 438 00:26:41.859 --> 00:26:44.900 stand alone, so they can be read on either side. 439

00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:50.660 But to get the complete story, reading the Hocus Pocus 440 00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:56.349 handbook and The Only Purple House in Town is suggested. 441 00:26:56.750 --> 00:26:59.130 But it doesn't really matter which one you read first. 442 00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:05.079 They are both changeling stories. And what's fun about that 443 00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:08.759 is I thought about it. And while you often get 444 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.740 a changeling story, which is, you know, a very special 445 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.240 Fae person who's raised in the mortal world and they 446 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.759 have all of these unique abilities and like, why do 447 00:27:18.819 --> 00:27:23.279 birds suddenly appear every time you are near? It's because 448 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:24.400 they're Fae. 449 00:27:24.420 --> 00:27:25.420 Yeah. 450 00:27:29.950 --> 00:27:33.009 That story has been told a lot, but I could 451 00:27:33.049 --> 00:27:37.490 not remember it being paired specifically with accounting for the 452 00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:42.230 person who was stolen and then raised in fairy at 453 00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:45.279 the same time, like both sides of the coin. And 454 00:27:45.339 --> 00:27:48.460 I decided it would be fun to do that. And 455 00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:51.460 also really fun to completely build a Fae, my own 456 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:55.660 Fae world from the ground up. And so that's what 457 00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.119 I do in the Hocus Pocus handbook. I had the 458 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:02.019 opportunity to do all the Fae world building. And it 459 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:07.849 is a grumpy sunshine, slow burn romance as well. Readers 460 00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:11.109 are really responding to it. And I was just over 461 00:28:11.150 --> 00:28:13.710 the moon when the team told me that it hit 462 00:28:13.750 --> 00:28:15.630 the USA Today bestseller list. 463 00:28:17.089 --> 00:28:20.799 That's so exciting. I'm thrilled for you. but you have 464 00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:23.420 a number of series as well. You have like the 465 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:28.740 Galactic Love series, the Fix It Witches series, Honor series, 466 00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:32.960 the Razorland trilogy. How do you pick what you're going 467 00:28:32.980 --> 00:28:36.049 to work on next? Are those still works in progress? 468 00:28:37.809 --> 00:28:42.670 No, I don't actually have, well, I guess technically the 469 00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:46.569 serial I'm writing now is part of a new series 470 00:28:46.630 --> 00:28:51.210 that that is tied to Galactic Love, but the Galactic 471 00:28:51.269 --> 00:28:55.670 Love trilogy is complete. This next book is just set 472 00:28:55.730 --> 00:28:59.200 in the same universe. It's not really pivotally related to 473 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:02.779 the first trilogy. And I just named it Galactic Love 2, 474 00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:09.089 Love Harder to be funny, because readers tend to like that. Yes. 475 00:29:09.130 --> 00:29:13.519 So each of these was just an idea of that 476 00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:16.519 squirrel moment, right? Like you just had this great idea 477 00:29:16.539 --> 00:29:19.279 and went after that. Yeah. 478 00:29:19.420 --> 00:29:22.220 And they, they are those, the ones you've named are 479 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.579 all written to completion. Now the fix it, which is 480 00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:31.829 world does tie to the purple house and the hocus 481 00:29:31.849 --> 00:29:35.089 pocus handbook. They are set in the same pervasive universe. 482 00:29:35.650 --> 00:29:39.630 And there are a few characters that make appearances, but again, 483 00:29:39.730 --> 00:29:42.630 if you, haven't read the Fix-It Witches trilogy, you will 484 00:29:42.670 --> 00:29:45.809 still have a good time reading the other two books. 485 00:29:46.970 --> 00:29:49.579 What I do find is that readers who come and 486 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:52.339 pick up Hocus Pocus, well, then they want to read 487 00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:55.140 Purple House and then they want to work backwards because 488 00:29:55.180 --> 00:29:58.500 they want to read like what happened to create the 489 00:29:58.539 --> 00:30:02.140 world that is existing in this state. And then they 490 00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:04.660 just enjoy like the backlist. 491 00:30:05.740 --> 00:30:08.480 That's a nice tribute. It means they like living in 492 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:09.119 your world. 493 00:30:09.740 --> 00:30:11.549 I'll probably start at the, I'm kind of a purist. 494 00:30:11.589 --> 00:30:14.009 I kind of like to start at the beginning and 495 00:30:14.109 --> 00:30:14.950 read forward. 496 00:30:14.970 --> 00:30:15.049 Yeah. 497 00:30:15.700 --> 00:30:18.940 Well, you're obviously very highly productive. What does your writing 498 00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:19.859 day look like? 499 00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:24.880 It used to be really organized. You know, I would, 500 00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:28.329 I would have a routine and I would get up 501 00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:30.789 and take care of the pets and then immediately go 502 00:30:30.829 --> 00:30:33.890 to my office and write for like, you know, four 503 00:30:33.910 --> 00:30:38.450 to five hours. I don't do that anymore, mainly because 504 00:30:38.490 --> 00:30:41.470 I have so many more balls in the air. Now 505 00:30:41.509 --> 00:30:45.660 that I'm in Washington and, because I'm in grad school 506 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:53.609 full time. I just did a book tour. I also 507 00:30:54.089 --> 00:30:57.890 do pro bono work as a certified advocate with survivors 508 00:30:58.049 --> 00:31:02.130 of domestic violence. I also do community reach with our 509 00:31:02.210 --> 00:31:09.309 unhoused neighbors in Bellingham. I cook for a mutual aid 510 00:31:09.910 --> 00:31:15.450 group and they distribute meals. And then I also keep 511 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:18.650 snack kits in my car that I give out when

512 00:31:18.690 --> 00:31:22.390 I'm out running errands. And so I just have so 513 00:31:22.430 --> 00:31:27.980 many more pieces that I'm currently making fit that basically 514 00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:31.059 writing is kind of now what I do when I 515 00:31:31.099 --> 00:31:34.460 have a chance to sit down. Like I'm just running 516 00:31:34.539 --> 00:31:37.029 and doing other things. And then when I find myself 517 00:31:37.109 --> 00:31:39.490 at my laptop, I'm like, okay, let's see how much 518 00:31:39.529 --> 00:31:42.569 work I can get before I fall asleep. type of thing. 519 00:31:42.609 --> 00:31:44.269 Right. 520 00:31:44.750 --> 00:31:51.029 Those are all really admirable pursuits, though. I mean, if 521 00:31:51.049 --> 00:31:53.329 you're fighting to find time to write, I mean, that's 522 00:31:53.369 --> 00:31:55.670 a really good reason why. 523 00:31:55.690 --> 00:32:01.059 Do you outline or any kind of preparation or do 524 00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.680 you just go for it? 525 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:07.839 I am what I like to jokingly call a planter. 526 00:32:09.140 --> 00:32:13.960 which is a combination of a plotter and a pantser. 527 00:32:15.579 --> 00:32:18.700 My process is this. When I go into a book, 528 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:21.960 I know what the opening scene is, and I know 529 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.880 what the ending scene is. Everything from point A to 530 00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:29.839 point Z is a question mark. I will write the 531 00:32:29.900 --> 00:32:33.690 entire first act freestyle, just kind of getting to know 532 00:32:33.750 --> 00:32:40.019 the characters, and like seeing their personalities and their styles 533 00:32:40.099 --> 00:32:42.940 and that kind of thing. Then that takes me to 534 00:32:43.059 --> 00:32:46.900 act two, which I affectionately call the swampy middle of doom. 535 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:48.900 If I don't. 536 00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:51.559 Want the swampy middle of doom to turn into this 537 00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:58.559 really boring, draggy, overly padded nonsense, then I need to evaluate, okay, 538 00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:01.609 this is where I ended act one. I know what 539 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:04.309 I need to happen at the end of act two. Three. 540 00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:07.299 So what kind of pacing do I need in order 541 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.660 to keep the reader engaged? At that point, I wouldn't 542 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:14.710 say I do any outlining, but I kind of basically 543 00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:20.589 do some briefs. That are like, you know, chapter 11, 544 00:33:20.589 --> 00:33:25.490 they encounter a shocking truth and then there's an argument. 545 00:33:26.009 --> 00:33:31.430 Chapter 12, they do some research and they reach out 546 00:33:31.509 --> 00:33:36.170 to someone's uncle who knows the family secrets. And like, 547 00:33:36.230 --> 00:33:39.589 I'll do that type of thing all through act two. 548 00:33:40.329 --> 00:33:43.940 And as I'm

writing, like sometimes my educated guess was 549 00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.400 completely way off the mark and I'll have a much 550 00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:50.079 better idea in the shower. And I'm like, okay, no, 551 00:33:50.099 --> 00:33:53.180 this is not the place for a road trip. This 552 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:58.049 is where I am going to do something else entirely. 553 00:33:58.069 --> 00:33:58.150 Yeah. 554 00:33:59.490 --> 00:34:05.089 That's, that's writing though. But you start with at least something, right? 555 00:34:05.210 --> 00:34:08.750 And then, of course, it modifies. Okay, we've made it 556 00:34:08.829 --> 00:34:11.030 to the lightning round where I get to ask my 557 00:34:11.090 --> 00:34:14.190 ridiculous questions that may or may not have anything to 558 00:34:14.250 --> 00:34:17.769 do with writing. But I've been waiting all day to 559 00:34:17.929 --> 00:34:18.530 ask you. 560 00:34:19.510 --> 00:34:20.150 No pressure. 561 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:26.639 If you could jump into a time machine and change anything, 562 00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:28.760 do anything, what would you do? 563 00:34:28.780 --> 00:34:33.630 I feel like that... I should say that I want 564 00:34:33.650 --> 00:34:37.989 to go and do something really important. Like, I don't know, 565 00:34:38.090 --> 00:34:43.659 kill someone who does terrible things. But I feel like 566 00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:49.139 I would really rather just go to Paris in the 567 00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:53.340 20s and just kind of soak it all in. when 568 00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:57.239 all like the jazz culture and all the famous writers 569 00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:01.139 were there in an enclave. And like, I think it 570 00:35:01.179 --> 00:35:03.239 would just be really cool to be part of that 571 00:35:03.429 --> 00:35:08.690 expat writing community in the twenties and just see it 572 00:35:08.769 --> 00:35:11.530 all firsthand. And then if I could go back to 573 00:35:11.590 --> 00:35:16.030 my own time and write an amazing book, like based 574 00:35:16.150 --> 00:35:19.869 on firsthand observations, I feel like that would just be 575 00:35:19.949 --> 00:35:20.869 a genius move. 576 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:23.340 Well, you made it about writing. 577 00:35:23.460 --> 00:35:24.599 See, that was perfect. 578 00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:27.199 We all just need a time machine. 579 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:29.179 That's all right. 580 00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:33.159 Well, speaking of writers for the past, so you can't 581 00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:37.119 use Hemingway, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, or anybody who would have been 582 00:35:37.139 --> 00:35:37.800 in Paris in the. 583 00:35:38.590 --> 00:35:39.849 1920s, but. 584 00:35:41.110 --> 00:35:42.849 What writer would you most like to sit. 585 00:35:42.750 --> 00:35:43.949 Down and have dinner with? 586 00:35:44.989 --> 00:35:48.829 Living or dead, I'll even let you have two writers 587 00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:49.670 if you want to. 588 00:35:51.769 -->

00:35:53.070 Just to make it a little easier. 589 00:35:53.090 --> 00:35:57.289 I think it would be very funny to have dinner 590 00:35:57.329 --> 00:36:01.170 with Dickens and Shakespeare. I wonder how they would get along. 591 00:36:01.190 --> 00:36:12.340 I think Dickens might feel threatened. 592 00:36:12.460 --> 00:36:15.460 For all the plays and the debates about authorship, I 593 00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:17.699 don't know that I really feel I have a sense 594 00:36:17.780 --> 00:36:19.730 of a Shakespearean personality. 595 00:36:19.750 --> 00:36:20.489 Would he. 596 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:25.340 Treat Dickens like an upstart or would he be saying, oh, 597 00:36:25.699 --> 00:36:28.000 this business with the orphans, this is pretty good? I 598 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:30.500 don't really know. 599 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:32.559 I feel like Dickens would pick a fight with him 600 00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.800 because I think Dickens would feel threatened over who has 601 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.659 the legacy and I think it would be very funny 602 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:41.170 to see Dickens being petty at Shakespeare. 603 00:36:41.190 --> 00:36:44.650 That would be amazing. 604 00:36:44.690 --> 00:36:49.409 Great answer. Okay, one more question. What's next from you? 605 00:36:49.489 --> 00:36:51.070 What are you working on now or what's going to 606 00:36:51.110 --> 00:36:51.730 come out next? 607 00:36:52.750 --> 00:36:56.489 Well, I currently have five books that are in different 608 00:36:56.550 --> 00:37:02.159 stages of the process. I have two books that are 609 00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:05.139 on submission that are completed. I have a thriller that 610 00:37:05.179 --> 00:37:09.820 I need to finish revising. I have a novel that 611 00:37:09.860 --> 00:37:12.989 it's about halfway done. It's a science fiction romance. That 612 00:37:13.030 --> 00:37:15.619 will be the next thing that publishes when I finish it. 613 00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:17.110 And then I have. 614 00:37:19.820 --> 00:37:22.820 A secret project that I cannot discuss at all for 615 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:23.659 legal reasons. 616 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:28.179 For legal reasons. Oh my gosh. Give us a hint. 617 00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:30.440 No can do. 618 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:31.059 Just a little hint. 619 00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:31.960 Genre. 620 00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:34.219 She said not at all. 621 00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:34.760 Wow. 622 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:35.300 Okay. 623 00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:37.030 I won't mess up your deal. 624 00:37:37.489 --> 00:37:40.849 Hey, Anne, thanks for being on the podcast. It's been fun. 625 00:37:40.909 --> 00:37:41.929 I really appreciate it. 626 00:37:43.630 --> 00:37:44.949 Thank you so much for your time. 627 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:03.219 Just a few parting words. WriterCon 2027 is September 3rd 628 00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:08.409 through 6th. Long time from now, sort of. But you 629 00:38:08.429 --> 00:38:10.670 could take advantage of the early bird prices or at 630 00:38:10.710 --> 00:38:13.349 least go visit the website and see what we've got 631 00:38:13.389 --> 00:38:17.630 in mind for next year. That's writercon.com. And the small 632 00:38:17.650 --> 00:38:22.739 group retreat will be May 12th through the 16th. Don't 633 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:27.059 forget about the WriterCon newsletter on Substack. Just go visit 634 00:38:27.489 --> 00:38:31.400 and search for WriterCon, and you'll find all kinds of newsletters. 635 00:38:31.739 --> 00:38:35.500 We do a new one every month on many breaking issues, 636 00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:39.820 plus we post about new agents and publishers and what 637 00:38:39.860 --> 00:38:42.280 they're looking for, all kinds of stuff that might be 638 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.449 of interest to you. And I think you should join 639 00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:49.289 the WriterCon Facebook group, too. We're there every day chatting 640 00:38:49.309 --> 00:38:53.170 it up and talking about the new issues and books 641 00:38:53.250 --> 00:38:56.340 of the day, so... I'll put a link in the 642 00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.940 show notes, but it's easy to find. Just go to 643 00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:05.389 Facebook and search for WriterCon, okay? Until next time, keep writing. 644 00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:09.760 And remember, you cannot fail if you refuse to quit. 645 00:39:10.380 --> 00:39:11.159 See you next time.