Full Transcript for Countdown to WriterCon with William Martin

stories, 35 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:08.240 but they are so perhaps they just think they're better 36 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.960 at detecting AI, or they don't want to, you know, 37 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.719 augment other people's mistakes. I don't know, Jesse, you're our 38 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.360 tech expert. How do you think this should be handled? 39 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:20.879 I mean, you got to you kind of. 40 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.960 You have to prove how you determined whether it was 41 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:27.319 written by human being or not. And even if you're 42 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:28.639 not going to run it, you have to tell people 43 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.840 why if you didn't use AI, you had to use 44 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:33.800 something because you can't just read it as a human 45 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.360 being and be like I can one hundred percent guarantee 46 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:36.840 this was. 47 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:40.520 Not written by AI. Right, Yeah, there's not a oh 48 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:41.639 what is that? 49 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.199 You know, Like you know, like in movies where there's 50 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:46.319 always like a new technology or whatever, but there's always 51 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.360 like the old guy who spent you know, twenty years 52 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:50.599 in the forest, who can like track things better than 53 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:51.400 the technology can. 54 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:51.879 Right. 55 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:55.120 We don't have We don't have that person for writing. 56 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:59.800 We don't, right, So how very if there's a character 57 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.520 in the story named Elias Thomas, it's probably Ai. But 58 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.759 we'll get to that later in the news. Okay, with 59 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:12.120 this episode, we are starting our official countdown to writer Con, 60 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.759 which of course is Labor Day weekend. That's September fourth 61 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:19.439 through seventh. This year, the Writer's conference is in Oklahoma 62 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:24.199 City at the Hilton Scurvian Hotel. In addition to our 63 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:28.400 usual programming, throughout the next two months of this podcast, 64 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.560 we'll be bringing you sneak previews of some of the 65 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:35.960 conference programming and speaking of By the way, the schedule 66 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.960 is now posted to our website writercon dot com. I 67 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:43.680 mean be warned that that's all subject to changes because 68 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.680 people have lives, and sometimes we have to juggle a 69 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:49.280 few things, but that's pretty much the schedule up there. 70 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:52.280 I think we're covering every kind of writing there is. 71 00:03:52.840 -->

00:03:55.479 We have agents covering every kind of writing there is. 72 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:58.479 We have the latest on all that's happening in the 73 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.319 writing world and everything you need to know to succeed 74 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:06.479 as a writer. And also speaking of writer Con, today, 75 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:13.800 our guest star interview is with Sunday keynote speaker William Martin. 76 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:17.639 As you probably know, he's one of the most one 77 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:19.800 of the most successful guests we've ever had, and we've 78 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.800 had some really good guests. He is the King of 79 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:26.319 the historical thriller. And that's not a title I awarded, 80 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:30.639 that's a title many people have awarded. He's the New 81 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.319 York Times bestselling author of twelve novels. His first book 82 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.600 was a New York Times bestseller, For Pete's Sake. He's 83 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.920 also written a PBS documentary about George Washington and book 84 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:47.240 reviews and magazine articles, and a cult classic horror movie. 85 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:52.639 His most recent book is December forty one, which Steve Barry, 86 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:57.879 another fabulous historical thriller author who was also keynoted at 87 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:01.920 Writer con He called it another masterpiece from a master 88 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:06.839 and that's exactly what William Martin is so really looking 89 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:23.079 forward to talking to him. But first the news news 90 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:26.199 story number one, and this is one that perhaps has 91 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.519 a change of pace. Will actually I think bring joy 92 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.959 to many hearts. A self published book has now sold 93 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:39.279 over two point five million copies. Well it started as 94 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:45.160 self published anyway. I mean thousands, if not millions, of 95 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:48.560 people pour their heart onto the page and then upload it. 96 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:51.360 Remember when we covered the story that said that four 97 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:55.079 million books had been published last year, and what about 98 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.439 three million of them were self published? Anyway, Most of 99 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:01.279 those books go largely on read but that is not 100 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:06.800 the case for THEO of Golden by Alan Levy. Levi, 101 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:11.279 by the way, who is a seventy year old former lawyer, 102 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:16.480 judge and singers songwriter. This is his first novel. It's 103 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.399 almost four hundred pages. It's about an elderly guy who 104 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:23.360 travels to a fictional southern

city and for most of 105 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:26.759 the book he sits on a park bench. I know, 106 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:29.240 I don't know why the Big five didn't pick up 107 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:33.920 on this, but anyway, almost three years after he first 108 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:38.600 self published it, THEO remains in the top five books 109 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.560 on Amazon. That's of everything in all categories, not just 110 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.920 in his category, but overall. It's in the top five 111 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:49.079 as we record this. For the past three weeks, it 112 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:53.079 has topped the New York Times bestseller list with, as 113 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:58.199 I said, two point five million copies sold. The book 114 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:03.279 talks about the virtues of close observation and deep conversation 115 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:10.319 and offline connections. Basically, the guys on the bench admires 116 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:13.959 the portraits lining the walls of a local coffee shop, 117 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:18.040 and he comes up with this plan. His mission, his 118 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.600 mission from God. Laura and I watched The Blues Brothers recently, 119 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:25.040 so we're all about a mission from God. His mission 120 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:29.040 is to buy and return those portraits to their subject 121 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:33.920 and subjects, and you can just imagine the connections. He 122 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:37.519 then makes well, this book was still obscure to most 123 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:41.279 of the publishing world, but slowly but surely you built 124 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.199 a readership through what do we always say is the 125 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:47.759 best kind of publicity a book can get, word of mouth. 126 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:52.759 And also he had the help of his niece who's 127 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:57.639 named Aaron Ritchie, and she was working ceaselessly to get 128 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.279 this thing publicized. He asked her early on and if 129 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.720 she'd help him with the publishing, I'm going to guess 130 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.000 he may not be that tech friendly. And she figured 131 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:08.199 it out how to upload it, and then she figured 132 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:11.720 out how to publicize it. She had all these spreadsheets. 133 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:16.360 She was tracking self publishing platforms and wholesale distribution. She 134 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:20.720 studied other authors' websites. She made a list of allies 135 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.920 meaning friends, people he had the author had encountered over 136 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.319 his very long life, and send everybody email. She shipped 137 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.759 out free books to book clubs and church groups, and 138 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:35.919 I mean,

what else can you say. At the end 139 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.960 of twenty twenty three, THEO of Golden had sold three 140 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:43.919 thousand copies, which would be darn good for most self 141 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:46.600 published books, actually most books period. 142 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:46.840 Any book. 143 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:52.000 Yes, yeah, but it's skyrocketed early in twenty twenty five 144 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:56.000 up to one hundred and twenty five thousand copies. And now, 145 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.120 of course, now the author has been interviewed by Katie 146 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:03.600 Kuric and Brauh and he's got the attention of Simon 147 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:08.720 and Schuster, and he sold two point five million copies. Jesse, 148 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.080 what is the moral of this story? 149 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.720 Well, I believe this This goes to your moral, which 150 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.120 is like, don't quit. If you have a dream, you 151 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:19.000 keep working on it. 152 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:21.799 Yeah, so you don't know when it'll happen. 153 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:23.759 Yeah, Now, only do you not know when it will happen. 154 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.279 You don't need you don't need the things. You don't 155 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.039 need the things you think you need to succeed, right, 156 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:32.639 You just need help and a good product. 157 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:33.399 Yeah. 158 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.039 Yeah, Laura, are you like me kind of wishing that 159 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:42.000 this guy's niece would publish a manual or something. Maybe 160 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.200 we could get her to speak a writer con. 161 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:46.039 Oh there, let go, that would be awesome. 162 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:47.679 She could come and teach something. 163 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:51.240 Yes, yeah, this is how I sold for five million 164 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:53.000 yeahs of my uncle's book. 165 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:58.720 I'd go, yes, Yes, it's a tough code to crack. Absolutely. 166 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:04.399 Okay, new story number two, which I was referring to 167 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:10.919 earlier when I mentioned Elias, The same character mysteriously keeps 168 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:19.519 appearing in AI stories. Okay. Recently, techie people, researchers, people 169 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:24.399 who understand all this AI stuff have noticed a weird 170 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:31.480 phenomenon when you when anybody prompts chat GPT or Claude 171 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.480 or any of the popular lms, when you prompt them 172 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.960 to tell a story, Odds are it will spit out 173 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:45.879 a tale featuring this mysterious Elias Thorn guy, who, by 174 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:50.799 the way, is usually a lighthouse keeper, sometimes a clockmaker, 175 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:56.679 sometimes he's a detective, but whatever form he takes, he 176 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.799 keeps popping up over and over again. An AI general Stories. 177 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:07.159 Two Cornell University researchers sampled over twenty thousand stories generated 178 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.480 by four different lms, all with the same prompt tell 179 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:15.399 me a story, and Elias Thorne appeared in twenty six 180 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:19.159 point five percent of them. They also found that eighty 181 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:24.039 eight percent of these stories shared the same eleven names, locations, 182 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:29.519 and professions like lighthouse keeper, which I don't think has 183 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:36.039 turned up once in my sixty seven book history. Apparently 184 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:40.639 AI likes it. What's the deal? Is Elias a messenger 185 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:43.679 from the future who's figured out how to send a 186 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:48.919 message to save humanity. The Cornell group produced a paper 187 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:54.519 that speculated, and it's just speculation that AI models, which 188 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:57.960 are after all trained on other people's books and large 189 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:01.519 data sets, may have been instructed to and here I'm 190 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:06.600 quoting avoid references to copyrighted characters, of course, and adult 191 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:10.440 content when they come up with stories. And so I 192 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.039 guess that just leaves Elias Thorn or it could be 193 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:19.960 something they call model collapse or sometimes AI inbreeding. The 194 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:23.159 basic idea is that as more and more the Internet 195 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:28.320 becomes AI generated, future al models will not be scraping 196 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:33.919 my books. They'll be scraping other low quality AI slop, 197 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.360 which will cause them to sped out even lower quality 198 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:45.960 AI slop, and on and on and idiocrisy comes for real. Jesse, 199 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:49.440 you have repeatedly said that AI should not be used 200 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:52.200 for creative work. So what do you think about this? 201 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:53.799 I mean, this proves my point. 202 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.960 Like I love I love like it's such a perfectly 203 00:12:58.159 --> 00:12:59.120 great fake name. 204 00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:03.159 It's almost like it's almost you. 205 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:06.759 Know, all the theories about how AI came up with 206 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.120 this sort of name just points points to the fact that, like, 207 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:14.720 creativity is hard. And I also love how it made 208 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:17.240 him a detective but not a detective. Plus one

other thing, 209 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.320 which is, you know, the standard rule for detectives lighthouse 210 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.120 keeper who moved on, a lighthouse keeper who also solves crimes. 211 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:30.000 There we go, crimes that happened in the light tower. Yeah, 212 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.279 this is you know, this is one. I think this 213 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:32.720 is good. 214 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:36.240 This proves like AI is not ready to do creative work, 215 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.559 So maybe we shouldn't have it do that. And also 216 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.960 the more rules you give it, the harder it. Just 217 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:47.080 like with real creativity, the more limitations you put on something, 218 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:49.919 the harder it becomes. This this exists both for human 219 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.159 beings and computers, you. 220 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:52.919 Know, Is that true? 221 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:53.159 Though? 222 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:56.080 I think sometimes I do better when I have some 223 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:59.759 kind of restriction, you know, like I'm going to write 224 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.759 an but it's going to be this series character, or 225 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.039 I'm going to write a book, you know, something that 226 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.799 it can only be so many words. I think sometimes 227 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:09.960 that can help channel create me. 228 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:13.320 But not Ai, I think I think it's a little bit. 229 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.480 It's a little bit of both, where like human beings 230 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.720 can take restrictions and find creative ways. 231 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:23.759 Maybe rather than restrictions, we should say some directions. Yeah, 232 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:27.200 that helps give direction to your creativity. 233 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:29.679 And yet just like the best example I always use 234 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.399 in this case is like The Wrath of con Versus, 235 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.200 the motion picture, like the Wrath of con had a 236 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:38.159 much smaller budget, had a lot of restrictions on it, 237 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.320 and it is by far superior. 238 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.919 To the motion picture. We've had all the money. 239 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.799 Very true. So so Laura, I hear you sighn back there. 240 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:51.360 Are you thinking about writing another ghost detective series with 241 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:52.960 Elias Thorne. The lighthouse. 242 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:58.600 Oh, so I sighed, because my current work in progress, Ghosted, 243 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:02.279 book six in the law Land Files series has a 244 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.960 lighthouse in it. So you're saying, like, you've never written 245 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:05.360 to the life. 246 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:06.720 So now everyone's going to it. 247 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:11.159 Now everyone's gonna think that it's AI generated. I definitely 248 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.320 cannot use the name Elias in there, or I'll open 249 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.480 myself up to all kinds of criticism. But yeah, it 250 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:21.879 does have a lighthouse featuring prominently in it. 251 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.759 Well, you're ahead of the trend or behind it one 252 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:27.159 or the other. 253 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:30.639 I don't know what I am anymore, but I do 254 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.519 like your idea. Maybe ooh, this would be so meta, Jesse. 255 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:40.840 If I steal from AI and I take Elias Thorn 256 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.840 and then start writing a human generated story from the 257 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:48.360 AI generated ideas, there we go. 258 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.919 Yeah, ice plan that that is, Like, here's the thing. 259 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:54.039 That's what AI is good. AI is good synthesizing information 260 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.279 very quickly for you to be like, Okay, I want 261 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.559 to write a story with this type of character doing 262 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.000 this type of thing, like give me give me a 263 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:07.240 quick like theory, like a quick scene this character would do. 264 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:09.440 And then taking that and then actually writing a full story. 265 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:16.480 Yes, but all right, but at least we've learned one thing. 266 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:21.039 If you're reading a story submitted to a contest or not, 267 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:26.200 and the character is named Elias Thorne, yes, that's. 268 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.200 A there's where you should be suspicious. 269 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.080 Like listeners by the time this episode comes out. Even 270 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:33.879 though this episod's coming out very quickly, I have no 271 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.919 doubt there'll be both a Twitter account, a Thread's account, 272 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:40.320 and a blue Sky account of Elias Thorne. 273 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:41.000 Yeah. 274 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:42.960 If there isn't, I'm a start one. 275 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:44.240 Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm. 276 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:46.799 A I'm gonna find out right now we. 277 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.919 Could boost my readership. Yeah, all right. Craft Corner Our 278 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.519 Craft Corner segment this time is from Christina Kay. She's 279 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:59.919 an author and an author coach who surprised will be 280 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.039 a writer con this year, more than happy to talk 281 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:05.400 to you about how she might be able to help 282 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:09.480 you with your writing goals. Her topic

today is how 283 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.759 to treat your books like a business, not a hobby. 284 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:19.119 Take it away, Christina. 285 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:19.440 Craft Quarter. 286 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:22.920 I'm going to bet you anything I can tell you 287 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:28.920 in thirty seconds flat, whether you're building an author business 288 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.880 or you're simply financing a very expensive hobby. Do you 289 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:39.119 have a one year publishing plan, a three year vision statement, 290 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:44.200 a budget? How About a marketing strategy that does not 291 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:49.440 depend on hoping your next TikTok post goes viral. An 292 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.759 email list that you're growing, a system for tracking your numbers, 293 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:58.799 how about an LLC that is legally established to protect 294 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:05.200 your business. If you answered no to most of those congratulations, 295 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:10.000 you're exactly in the same boat as thousands of super 296 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.480 talented authors. That's actually good news, because none of those 297 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.559 things have anything at all to do with your talent. 298 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:23.480 They have instead, everything to do with learning to think differently. 299 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:29.240 For the past twenty years, I've helped authors successfully launched 300 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:34.319 not just their books, but their careers by teaching them 301 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:39.559 what actually works in today's publishing and marketing worlds. Here's 302 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:42.599 the biggest mindset shift I can give you in this 303 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:53.319 short video. Authors write books, CEOs build assets. Every book 304 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:59.119 you published should strengthen your brand, grow your readership, expand 305 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:04.839 your email. Most importantly, increase your revenue, and move you 306 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.200 one step closer to the author career that you know 307 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.400 you've been dreaming about. We are living in a time 308 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:17.680 when independent authors have more opportunity than ever before at 309 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:24.720 building thriving, profitable careers with more freedom, more control, and 310 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:29.559 a larger share of the profits than ever before. But 311 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:34.519 there's a catch. Writing a great book is not enough anymore. 312 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:39.799 You have to build a great business around it. Stop 313 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:45.200 asking yourself what should I write next? Instead, ask yourself 314 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:51.880 what would the CEO of my author empire do next? 315 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:57.319 And then go do that. I will be speaking on 316 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:02.160 Saturday and Sunday for this year's WRI six and I 317 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:05.759 can't wait to meet you there. In the meantime, you're 318 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:09.200 welcome to find and follow me on almost all social 319 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:14.200 media outlets at Christina k Official, or you can visit 320 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:17.119 my website learn more about me and my services and 321 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:22.680 offers and all my successful clients at christinaka dot com. Otherwise, 322 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.200 I will see you at Write. 323 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:38.559 Thank you, Christina. Now let's talk to William Martin. William Martin, 324 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:40.319 welcome back to the podcast. 325 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.240 Hello, glad to be back. 326 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.799 Yeah, great to have you here. All right, as you 327 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:49.319 already know, we have a traditional opening question. If you 328 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:53.359 could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be? 329 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:56.000 Don't quit write every. 330 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.880 Day, let's due when that's okay? 331 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:05.200 Well, they together, they work together. It's exciting every day, 332 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:11.200 right right, don't quit. Write every day and hope that 333 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.240 no matter what, someday you'll get to the end of 334 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:15.880 a book. 335 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.440 Which you know, I think they will if they don't quit, 336 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:24.359 and you can, yeah, well finish a fight draft. 337 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:31.319 I have, I have a time. My plan is to 338 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:35.440 be in this room where the sausage gets made for 339 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:44.240 about eight hours every day. The people have have goals 340 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:48.960 in terms of words or sentences. You know, Stephen King 341 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:55.440 has has I think a a word count. Robert B. 342 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:58.559 Parker used to write five pages a day, you know, 343 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:02.480 the author of the Spencer no the late author of 344 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.079 the Spencer novels, quit and he'd write five pages and quit. 345 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.039 And this was on the Spencer books, which were doing 346 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:15.119 quite well. Five pages and quit, and quite often he'd 347 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.680 be done at noon, and so he started writing new 348 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:23.359 characters the Jesse Stone novels, and there were other characters. 349 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.640 Maybe you will get that far if you write every day. 350 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:33.799 But you know, I personally, one book, one book at 351 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:38.240 a time has always been an and for me it's 352

00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.519 eight hours a day, and they those eight hours might 353 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:48.119 sometimes produce two sentences and sometimes might produce twenty pages. 354 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:55.039 And you just have to understand your own creative process 355 00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:02.279 and recognize that for some people it's going to be 356 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:08.839 slower than for others. However, I think it was Louis 357 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:15.039 Lamore who said, but whatever you do, start writing, because 358 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.880 you don't get water until you turn on the faucet. 359 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.960 That's the great way of putting. When did you realize 360 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:26.160 you wanted to be a writer? 361 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:32.559 Well, I realized first that I wanted to be a 362 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.279 movie director, and I probably just I probably decided that 363 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.480 when I was seeing movies like Lawrence of Arabia and 364 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.880 Meet Me on the Bounty and The Longest Day How 365 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:50.359 the West Was Won, all of those big, thundering epics 366 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:54.039 of the early nineteen sixties, many of which are still 367 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.440 better than the movies they make today as far as 368 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:02.440 I'm concerned. You're not the only one the grandeur. And 369 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:08.640 yet the complexity of Lawrence of Arabia is is something 370 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:14.160 that has very seldom been achieved in movies, from Birth 371 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.839 of a Nation to the present. And anyway, I saw 372 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:20.799 those movies and I saw the first of all the 373 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:24.240 adventure they depicted. But I thought a lot about the 374 00:24:24.279 --> 00:24:29.960 adventure that must have been involved in the creation of them, 375 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:32.559 which was a little bit naive of me, because you 376 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.920 know that that kind of adventure can be pretty hellish. 377 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:39.880 And I saw all of that, and I thought I 378 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:43.680 want to be a movie director. And I followed that 379 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:51.880 belief all through college, where I directed theater and did 380 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.720 my senior honors thesis in the movies of John Ford, 381 00:24:55.799 --> 00:25:00.680 the Great movie Director. And then I went to the 382 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:06.119 USC Film School and I said, I said to my father, Dad, 383 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.160 I want to go to film school. He said, film school. 384 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.200 I'd really rather see you go to law school. If 385 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:16.640 you don't do what you want to do when you're young, 386 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:19.160 you'll spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. 387 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.599 This is true. 388 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:28.279 So about thirty years later, when my son, who will 389 00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:32.000 be at writer con also said to me, Dad, I 390 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:34.960 want to go to film school. I said, film school. 391 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:39.480 I'd really rather see you going to law school. But 392 00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:45.359 as your grandfather said to me, etcetera, etcetera. So I 393 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.640 went to the USC Film School and met a lot 394 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.160 of people who ultimately turned out to be pretty successful, 395 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:56.680 and I worked with them on their on We would 396 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.400 create creative teams to work together, and I worked with 397 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:07.759 Robert Elswid who's Academy Award winning a cinematographer shot There 398 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:12.160 will be Blood, among other things, and people who became 399 00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:18.119 important in the production of movies and the production of 400 00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:23.720 television shows. But what I figured out as I was 401 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.640 going through film school was that the quickest way into 402 00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:30.440 the movie business was to come with a script under 403 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:34.599 your arm, and not a script for a sixteen minute, 404 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:40.759 sixteen millimeters student film, but a script of one hundred 405 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:46.000 and twenty pages that grabs you on the first page 406 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.839 and doesn't let you go until the last page. And 407 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.880 so I focused more and more on writing screenplays, and 408 00:26:55.480 --> 00:27:02.039 out of that learned the mechanics of storytelling. Wrote a 409 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:08.079 couple of screenplays. The first one that really developed into 410 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:12.519 a mature piece of work became ultimately my eleventh novel. 411 00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:21.079 But that's a story for a different time, right exactly. Anyway, 412 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:26.200 I found my way into the into the business of 413 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:31.039 writing by thinking that it was the back door into 414 00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:36.200 the business of directing. I wrote screenplays, nobody wanted to 415 00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:39.640 produce them, even though I made a few good contacts 416 00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:43.119 in Hollywood. Nobody at that time in the late the 417 00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:51.599 mid seventies wanted to produce movies, big historical movies, which 418 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:53.839 was the kind of thing that I was writing, and 419 00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.119 my agent actually sent to me once after I after 420 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:01.279 I submitted to her a big splay about the battle 421

00:28:01.319 --> 00:28:04.440 for water rights in the Southern CALIFORNI in southern California 422 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.960 in the nineteen twenties, she said, Oh, too bad. George 423 00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:12.680 Stevens and John Ford are dead. You know. I was 424 00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:16.119 almost as if in my storytelling instincts and in the 425 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:19.799 things that excited me, I was about a generation too late. 426 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.640 But I thinking that all this is going to lead 427 00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.440 somehow to humanoids of the deed. 428 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:30.119 From the deep. Well, we'll get we'll get to that, 429 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:35.160 we'll get to a second. But eventually I would go around, 430 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:39.079 go around the movie producers and pitch ideas, and one 431 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:40.880 of them finally said to me, you know the way 432 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.880 you write, You ought to write a novel. And at 433 00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:48.920 just about that time, there was a strike in Hollywood, 434 00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:51.359 and I had had it in my head that maybe 435 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.880 I could write a novel. It's all storytelling. And I 436 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.920 had a story about buried treasure beneath the streets of Boston, 437 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:07.799 which became that book right there, Back Bay, which came 438 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:13.359 out in nineteen eighty, which will be fifty years come 439 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:20.119 in twenty thirty and that's what we celebrates, right. Yeah, 440 00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:22.200 Well I'm going to celebrate in a very big way 441 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:25.160 at that one. But I'll tell you about that in 442 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:35.839 a minute. That the process though with back Bay was 443 00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:38.720 basically applying the things that I knew as a screenwriter 444 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:42.440 about grabbing a reader and the beginning of a story 445 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:49.359 and sustaining dramatic tension and the plot velocity right the 446 00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:55.359 way I put it all together from my screen screenwriting training. 447 00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.160 And since then I have been learning more and more 448 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:07.039 about the business of writing novels and developing as a stylist, 449 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:11.240 which I would admit I really wasn't when I wrote 450 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.000 back Bay. But we can talk more about style when 451 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:17.559 when I'm there at writer Con. 452 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.359 Everybody had to write a first books. 453 00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:24.960 That's right, yeah, required, But my first book was a 454 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.000 New York Times bestseller because that's the thing strike that 455 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.839 that hit back Bait, and I was too young and 456 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:40.680 inexperienced to fully appreciate what has happened, but I was 457 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:41.759 glad that it did. 458 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:47.519 Yeah. Yeah, but still Humanoids of the Deep, Okay, I 459 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.799 got this cult horror film. Where did that come from? 460 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:54.319 So one of the things that I did in the 461 00:30:54.359 --> 00:31:00.640 process of trying to develop a screenwriter was to make connections, 462 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:04.720 make friends. And one of my professors at USC actually 463 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:09.759 wrote movies for Roger Corman, the king of the B Pictures, 464 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:16.000 who wrote He wrote Bloody Mama, Death Race two thousand, 465 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.880 kind of movies that there are certain people out there 466 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:20.880 who are saying, Oh, that's a great one, that's a 467 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:26.480 great one. Ron mccorman made what I called exploitation films, 468 00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:33.519 and so I got to know his story editor, a 469 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:37.200 wonderful woman by the name of Francis Dole, who has 470 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.640 recently passed away. But just about the time that I 471 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:42.920 was finishing the writing of Back Bay, she called me 472 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:47.559 up and said, we have an assignment for you. Now, 473 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:54.119 Roger Corman gave you an assignment. It meant that that 474 00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:59.039 movie was going to get made, no matter so in 475 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:04.880 a town where where everybody is writing a screenplay, including 476 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:12.839 the guy parking cars outside of the restaurant that you've 477 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:18.359 just gone to, everybody has an idea for screenplay. But 478 00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:22.039 to know that something that you had written was going 479 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:27.039 to be put before cameras and turned into film that 480 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:30.319 was unbelievable. So who was I to turn down the 481 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:34.759 opportunity to do that? All that she gave me was 482 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:39.400 the title and the tagline, both of which had come 483 00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:43.359 from a guy who I guess was a real estate 484 00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:45.920 agent who had decided he wanted to be a movie producer. 485 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:49.039 And he went to Roger Corman and said, I'll finance 486 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.039 this movie. And Roger Corman, of course, being a man 487 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:57.400 who loved outside finance, particularly when he knew that he 488 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:01.319 could control the project, said okay, I'll do it. And 489 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:04.519 the title was Humanoids from the Deep and the tagline 490 00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:08.039 forgive me.

I did not come up with this. The 491 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:13.880 tagline was they're not human, but they hunt human women, 492 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:22.440 not killing for mating. And on that basis I wrote 493 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:26.039 that movie. And it was about six months later that 494 00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:30.759 Back Bay became a New York Times bestseller, and I 495 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:34.160 didn't need to worry about pleasing Roger Corman again in 496 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:36.440 my career. Did he know? 497 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.759 I mean, I could have seen him re releasing it 498 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:42.359 as by the best selling author. 499 00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:48.359 Well, you know that the problem was that I I 500 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.799 had a dispute over the ending of the movie, which 501 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:56.200 I kind of a ripoff of Alien, which was a 502 00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:58.880 big movie in that particular summer, you know, the one 503 00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:01.440 with the baby pot that where the monster pops out 504 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:06.119 of a John Hurts chest. That's you know, it's one 505 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.440 of the most shocking incident incidents moments in the history 506 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:10.199 of cinema. 507 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.159 And he remember seeing that in the theater and the 508 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.320 woman in front of him literally leaped out of her chair. 509 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.199 Yep, yep. Well, uh, they decided after they saw that 510 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.039 that that was how they wanted to end the movie. 511 00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:29.679 And Francis Dole, who was an english woman with a 512 00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:33.840 wonderful accent, would say, now, Bill, have you decided to 513 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:40.360 write Birth of Monster Baby? I'd say, I'm not going 514 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:46.920 to write that scene. In retrospect, I should have kept 515 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:48.719 my name on the movie because I have gotten a 516 00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:53.760 lot of a lot of mileage from it, and uh 517 00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:57.679 learned a lot from it also, you know, and a 518 00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:04.400 lot of what I learned I I applied to subsequent 519 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:09.840 books that I wrote. And that's that's a truth. No 520 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:14.800 matter what you write, whether you're write a drawer full 521 00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:18.760 of short stories that you can't get published in the 522 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:22.360 New Yorker, well maybe one day one of those short 523 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.920 stories will break through for the New Yorker. I personally 524 00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:31.079 am totally incapable of writing a short story. I've never 525 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.159 I've never been able to work. It's very hard work. 526 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:40.079 People don't people don't understand. Oh, well, I can't write 527 00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:42.639 a novel, so I'll just write a few short stories. 528 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.440 Now that doesn't work as long. 529 00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:47.920 And then you've got nowhere to send. 530 00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:52.719 It, right exactly. And the other one that falls under 531 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:58.280 that that that label, I guess would be the children's book. 532 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:03.519 You know, the children's book is a very difficult thing 533 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.119 to write. It's like writing high coup, it's like writing poetry. 534 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:11.239 And when when you when you meet someone who says, well, 535 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.320 I can't write a novel for grown up, so I'll 536 00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:17.000 write a children's book, I say, well, you really, you 537 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:20.800 might want to rethink that, because it's a it takes 538 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:26.000 a very special set of skills and experience, and it 539 00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:33.280 isn't easier as it may appear. No, no, no. 540 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.960 Now, Laura, you want to ask him about that PBS documentary, right, yes. 541 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:41.400 So from Humanoids from the Deep to a PBS documentary 542 00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:44.440 on George Washington. Yes, well that age tell us about 543 00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:45.119 that one. 544 00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:50.679 That might I'm much prouder of George Washington, the man 545 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:56.400 who wouldn't be king. But people seen it, well, you know, 546 00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:00.320 a show, a show like that in those days, even 547 00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.760 on the American experience on PBS, UH, that show would 548 00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:08.400 have been seen by six to eight million people, which 549 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:16.199 a pretty good number of people. Yeah. Yeah, it is 550 00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:21.000 a sad fact of life. In my estimation that well, 551 00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:25.639 I've written some pretty good selling or well selling books, 552 00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:32.079 that the sum total of all the novels that I 553 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:36.800 have written and all of their sales can't equal the 554 00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:42.280 number of people who have probably seen that awful movie. However, George, 555 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:47.360 George Washington, the man books that you'd written, No, no, 556 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:51.360 I had. I had a friend who's still working. David 557 00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:55.280 Sutherland is his name. He's a one of the last 558 00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:59.599 of the cinema verite filmmakers uh and and actually did 559 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:04.800 a most of the films that he made would take 560 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:07.400 him into someone's home, like he did one called The 561 00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:11.639 Farmer's Wife in

Nebraska about a farmer. Another one was 562 00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:17.039 about a cowgirl, and he would follow that family around 563 00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:20.440 with the cameras and then create something out of it 564 00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:26.599 that would become a PBS special then, and they asked 565 00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:29.440 him for some reason, I think because he had done 566 00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:34.400 films about art and had been able to animate the 567 00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:38.960 works of certain artists very vividly. Could he go back 568 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.639 to the eighteenth century and animate the imagery that was 569 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:48.559 available to us of Georgia Wellington as general and president 570 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:53.960 and so forth and so on. And so he asked 571 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:58.280 me if i'd write it, and I said, I'll write 572 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:01.079 it if you let me narrate it, because I was 573 00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:04.880 angling to make myself the Road Company David McCullough. That 574 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.440 didn't end, but uh, but it was a wonderful experience 575 00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:12.320 writing that film, and it's a nice we have all 576 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:16.320 We have talked many times since about trying to do 577 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:22.280 one on uh maybe the famous movie director for American 578 00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:26.960 masters or uh, maybe for the American experience, but we 579 00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:33.440 haven't uh, we haven't managed to coordinate our time schedules. 580 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:37.559 So it might happen. It might. It might be fun. 581 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.679 That sounds very fun. That kind of combines both of 582 00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.599 your interests. Yes, film writing brings. 583 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:45.519 It all together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 584 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.599 And you talked about how you spend eight hours every 585 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:53.760 day focused on your writing. Can you write more specifics 586 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:55.760 like what your process looks like? 587 00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:56.559 Are you are you. 588 00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.280 A pants or a planner? Do you outline how do 589 00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:00.199 you approach a new well? 590 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:04.119 You know, I've been sort of I've taken my foot 591 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:09.920 off the gas pedal the last few years. When I 592 00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.599 was in the midst of writing December forty one, my 593 00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:18.360 last novel, I had a heart attack sitting right here. 594 00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:22.239 I'm sorry, that's all right, it's fine. I was sitting 595 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:28.119 right here, and I had promised them the book in 596 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:35.039 six weeks. I had targeted the date a week before 597 00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:37.360 my daughter's wedding, so i'd have the book out of 598 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:42.119 my house so forth. And I was sitting here and 599 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:46.400 I was saying to myself, I need six months, not 600 00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:50.480 six weeks, to finish this. And then I found a 601 00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.599 little funny pain here and it started to travel, and no, 602 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:58.119 it didn't stop, it didn't go away. I went downstairs. 603 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:01.320 I walked up and down the driveway to try to 604 00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:05.000 walk it off. That I do not suggest to anyone 605 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:09.239 that thinks this might be happening. Went next door to 606 00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:12.800 my neighbor who was a retired ear nose and throat specialist. 607 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.920 He wasn't home, so I kept walking up and down 608 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:21.800 the driveway. Chris, my wife, wasn't home. Then my neighbor 609 00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.480 pulled in and he looked over and he said, were 610 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:28.559 you looking for me, Bill? And I said, well, yeah, 611 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:33.960 little pain. So forth get in the car, and he said, 612 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.760 it's probably nothing, but let's go down to the hospital, 613 00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:42.920 which is six minutes away. And I was fortunate. By 614 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:48.039 the end of the afternoon, I had a stint and 615 00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:52.719 I was sitting in my hospital bed calling my sons 616 00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:55.079 and saying, you know how, I tell you guys, sometimes 617 00:41:55.119 --> 00:42:00.079 you eat too much cheese. Well, I have now compelling 618 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:06.599 evidence to support that theory. But anyway, so I had 619 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:11.719 the heart attack. And while I was having the the 620 00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:13.920 camera put up through my arm and a cross into 621 00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:17.920 my heart and they're they're studying the veins. I'm thinking 622 00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:21.239 to myself, I don't have any more to prove. I'm 623 00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.599 not going to kill myself anymore. And my editor went 624 00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:29.280 along with that. He actually he said take all the 625 00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:34.480 time you need. And eventually I spent another year writing 626 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:39.079 December forty one and then said, I'm going to spend 627 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:42.840 some time traveling and wondering about I'll get to my 628 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:45.039 next novel eventually, but it is coming. 629 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:47.559 It's important to have that balance. 630 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:48.400 It is. 631 00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:51.199 It's so important, I think, to fight burnout. 632 00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:58.639 Yes, that's part of it, you know. I meant at 633 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:04.320 some point that one point

I was producing books almost 634 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:09.960 won every two years. And and when you write books 635 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.159 that are as big and long and research intensive as 636 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:18.960 I write, they that that can be a lot of work, 637 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:26.599 you know. And I truly hate sitting up here after 638 00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:30.559 supper at seven o'clock at night hoping that I can 639 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:34.519 squeeze out a few more pages in order to get 640 00:43:34.519 --> 00:43:41.519 close to my my next deadline. And and that's that's 641 00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:43.599 when I that's when I say I'm too damn old 642 00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:45.440 for this. So and I. 643 00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:48.599 Think I think people who still have a day job 644 00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:51.440 and are trying to squeeze in that time so well 645 00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.360 and finish the next book, I think they're going to 646 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:57.960 really connect with that idea as well. It's it's so 647 00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.760 easy to just keep pushing, pushing, right, and the next 648 00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:03.239 thing you know, you're burned out, your health is defraying, 649 00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:04.840 your relationships are suffering. 650 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:09.760 Yeah. Absolutely, this is the this is the flip side 651 00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:13.360 of that business that I offered at the beginning about 652 00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:16.159 write every day. So forth, you should try to write 653 00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:22.639 every day. But I personally have an enormous amount of 654 00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:26.000 respect for people who keep a day job and also 655 00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:31.519 write books because I have been among the lucky ones 656 00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:37.440 in that I have. I have never I've never had 657 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.440 to have a day job since I quit construction work. 658 00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:42.639 The writing is your day job. 659 00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:44.400 I said to my wife. I said to my wife, 660 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.360 after I graduated from the US and Film School, just 661 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.239 give me a year to write. She was working in 662 00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:52.800 the scientific lab at the time, and so she said, okay, 663 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:57.840 And that was just about enough. I got my I 664 00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:04.599 got my princely Advanced bay of seven thousand, five hundred 665 00:45:04.599 --> 00:45:11.760 dollars and in well in late nineteen seventy seven. And 666 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:15.960 that book made a lot more than seventy five hundred dollars. 667 00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:17.840 I am healthy. Yeah. 668 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:20.400 Well, that's the nice thing about a small advance, isn't it. 669 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:21.719 The book does. 670 00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:26.159 Well right right,

That book bought this house that I 671 00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:32.159 mean right now. Years later, Yeah, subsequent subsequent books heeded it. 672 00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:35.440 And because it gets. 673 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:39.440 Colder for the furniture, right, Okay, we've hit the mark. 674 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:42.280 I'm going to cut into that I call the lightning round. 675 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.239 I want you to know that I tailored two of 676 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:51.159 these questions just for you, knowing your extensive historical and 677 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:55.800 really pretty much every kind of knowledge. So first one, 678 00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:01.599 if you could steal something from any library or museum 679 00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:04.639 in the world, what would you take. 680 00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:11.840 I would steal. I would go with Peter Fallon, the 681 00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:16.599 main character in several of my novels, who is involved 682 00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.119 in a lot of this stuff, and steal a first 683 00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:25.000 folio of Shakespeare. Oh well, nice, And I know and 684 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.079 I know where to find a couple of them. I've 685 00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:28.920 actually been my hands. 686 00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.679 And that would worry about taking care of it though, 687 00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:33.039 you know. 688 00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:37.039 That would be worth but that would be worth about 689 00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:37.800 fifty million. 690 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:41.760 Oh my god. After the Superman book people came out, 691 00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:43.519 people would say, would you like to have an Action 692 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:47.880 Comics number one? The last one sold for about fifteen million. Yeah. No, 693 00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:51.480 I don't want that. I don't want the responsibility for that. 694 00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:55.679 Yeah. Well, well right in this line of books behind me, 695 00:46:55.920 --> 00:47:02.559 I have a plan from the second folio of Shakespeare, 696 00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:09.159 from the sixteen hundreds, certain books, certain dealers will if 697 00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:14.199 if the volume is just too hard to sell, to 698 00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:19.920 deteriorated and stained, they will take out razor out the 699 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:24.400 plays that are that are still legible, and they'll sell 700 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:27.280 those individually. And so I I have a copy of 701 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:32.840 Loves Loves Labors one over there. Actually it's Love Loves 702 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:37.519 it's actually Loves Labors Lost, Loves Labor's Loss. But in 703 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:42.079 Harvard Yard. My novel about Harvard with Peter Fallon. In it, 704 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:46.000 he tries to find loves labors one which they think 705 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:47.320 Beer wrote and. 706 00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:51.239 Lost it was

registered, but nobody's. 707 00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:54.599 Yeah, yes, yeah. 708 00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:55.840 Okay, I totally didn't stump you with that. So let 709 00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:59.440 me try again. You could jump at, mister history, if 710 00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:07.800 you could jump up into a time machine and change anything, Okay. 711 00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:10.159 I would go back sixty million years and I would 712 00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:13.679 just adjust the rotation of the Earth by it, I 713 00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:20.039 don't know, maybe about about six hours, so that the 714 00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:25.599 asteroid that hit the Yucatan Peninsula and Gulf of Mexico 715 00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:30.679 would hit in the Pacific because if that asked and 716 00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:32.840 I was just reading all this the other day, and 717 00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:33.480 I'm saying. 718 00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:34.800 You'd save the dinosaurs. 719 00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:42.960 No, well, listen, who knows. But the asteroid, the asteroid 720 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:48.719 hitting the Gulf of Mexico, it hit a very shallow 721 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:52.119 limestone seabed, and the limestone reacted in such a way 722 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.880 that it went up into the air and became sulfuric acid. 723 00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:59.000 So after everything else was over with, the Earth was 724 00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:04.159 surrounded by this orbit of sulfuric acid in the little pellets. 725 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:08.000 If it had hit in the Pacific. It would have 726 00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:12.559 caused probably a tidal wave and an explosion and so forth, 727 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:18.519 but the effects might not have been as as completely catastrophic. 728 00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:23.400 So who knows what might have emerged. Who knows what 729 00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:24.400 we would be like. 730 00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:26.480 It could be humanoids from the deep. 731 00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:32.039 I know. That's great. I thought about I thought about 732 00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:37.000 that answer, and I figured you'd like that. That's that's 733 00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:41.000 the big picture. And then all of these in all 734 00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:42.840 of these books, I like to think about a big 735 00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:43.639 picture behind. 736 00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:48.320 It's so smart. Yeah, great, regret. I have to wrap 737 00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:51.599 this up. Okay, we will see you again at Ryder 738 00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:53.239 Con in September. 739 00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:53.960 Good. 740 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.360 Until then, thanks for being on the podcast. 741 00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:01.559 Good okay having me, Yes and my son Dan Man. 742 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:07.039 We'll be talking about games, writing games. 743 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:09.679 Yes, podcast too. But yeah, I'll be back to writer 744 00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:10.480 conn all. 745 00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:13.000 Right, thanks for being okay, take care. 746 00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:28.519 Just a few parting words. Writer Con is September fourth 747 00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:32.599 through seventh and Oklahoma City at the historic and haunted 748 00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:36.920 Sturvan Hotel. Laura and I will be there, Jesse will 749 00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:41.679 be there, about sixty other writers agents will will be there. 750 00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:45.519 William Martin will be there with his son Dan Martin. 751 00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:49.320 As we know and you know, a whole bunch more. 752 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:52.079 And like I said, the schedule is on our website, 753 00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:55.000 so go check it out. It is not too time 754 00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:58.880 to register and make plans to attend writer Con. The 755 00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:04.679 website is predictably writer con dot com. I also have 756 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:07.079 to put in one more plug for my new book, 757 00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:10.559 The Superman Wars. Remember this is a book about a 758 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:14.639 writer just like you, and the struggle struggles he suffered 759 00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:18.519 are sadly very much with us today. Some of the 760 00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:23.239 scams targeting targeting writers take a slightly different shape today, 761 00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:27.599 but man, the vultures are still with us. And Jerry Siegel, 762 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:29.840 the kid who came up with the idea for Superman, 763 00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:33.840 was the first American writer to sue his publishers to 764 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.199 stand up for his rights, and many other writers now 765 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.920 benefit from what turned out to be the most important 766 00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:45.679 creator writes battle of modern times. Let me also say, 767 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:48.039 if you haven't joined the writer Con Facebook group, you 768 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:51.280 should do it now. Join this wonderful community of writers. 769 00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:53.440 They'll keep up to date. It doesn't cost a thing. 770 00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:55.840 I'll post a link in the show notes. All right, 771 00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:02.280 until next time, people keep writing, And remember you heard 772 00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:05.440 it from William Martin, so you know it must be true. 773 00:52:05.559 --> 00:52:08.159 You've heard it from me a few times too. You 774 00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:13.440 cannot fail if you refuse to quit. All right, See 775 00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:14.119 you next time.