ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Esther Perel has ideas for how to humor yourself on your first dates using a bit of role play. She's the host of the Audible original podcast "Where Should We Begin." You can hear Season 1 of the show on Apple Podcasts, and Season 2 is now available on Audible. She's also the author of "The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity." Plus, our strangest Blind Skype Date yet,

Our sponsors for this episode are Quip, Zola and BarkBox. Go to getquip.com/WHY, zola.com/why, and barkbox.com/WHY for special offers.
English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:05the following podcast contains explicit language I just found a new podcast to check out and it is so good I binged everything you could possibly listen to and like a day do we need to set up with the pod cast is that is the lovely penetrating voice after
00:00:31Pearl and the couple stared piece I've been working with couples for almost twenty five years and that's almost thirty five years she's given a lot of viral Ted talks she's authored bestselling books and now she's a host of the audible original podcast I'd been so eager to tell
00:00:50you about it's called where should we begin a I think that's very often couples at quite isolate we have no idea what goes on in the intimate space of a couple sustained realized you're putting so much weight on this one partner in the do it all alone and
00:01:11I thought one way I can really do kind of relationship public health campaign is to open up my daughter and to let you hear on the role intimate conversations of other couples and that's what our podcast as you are a fly on the wall couples therapy you realize
00:01:31very quickly that sometimes they give you the words for the conversations that you want to have even though the situation is completely different from yours and then in fact when you're listening to them you standing in front of your own this is why why any injuries to Lindsey
00:01:54and yeah today so I'm gonna fan girl about this podcast a bunch but then I'm gonna sneak in some questions that I've been having about my own daily life things like how do you know when you meet the one how important is really good sax in the early
00:02:09stages of dating plus we have some questions from you guys too about dating after infidelity and see that's the picture the scene Esther and I ended up speaking in a different studio than where I usually take it was basically a basement inside of an office in midtown Manhattan
00:02:26and inside of the starker in there just a few LED lights hanging from the ceiling but when you're in a room with Esther Parral even a makeshift studio can feel like the most intimate room in the entire city so I want to look really close at an episode
00:02:44from season two episode two can you tell us about this couple that netted a masquerade party every couple has an origin story I ask every couple no matter which state of disarray or distress derive and where did you meet how did you meet what drew you to each
00:03:03other it was at a masquerade party how did you can try to get like a a cool confidence about ourselves are you saying you know in June two cool confidence it well maybe a little more nervous because I was used to to interact with people have flaws she
00:03:23seemed like she was covered herself side and I had to react to that so kinda made interesting for me because they where in a masquerade ball Nigel reading knew the truth about the other each one could be death which they wanted to be themselves and in the eyes
00:03:40of another there is this moment for me about ten minutes into the episode where the wife is talking and and here's what she said I appreciate those words but it's hard to hear knowing that he does have a desire to do a little bit of work that might
00:04:02be required to repair things that they sell damage between us we've had a lot of hurdles and we came through those hurdles we didn't come through unscathed and for me as a single person listening in I felt this sense of %HESITATION when am I gonna ever get to
00:04:21do the work right all the couples that are coming in to sit with you are making decision about this is gonna take work are you in there for the work with me but for me when the work comes up that's when you usually balance someone and that kind
00:04:35of pre marriage early dating stages so I wondered shape to start picking fights with guys on first dates of the task like how do I have or get to learn how to be good at that work or know of my future partner is going to be good at
00:04:49that work %HESITATION I would see anywhere on the first date be as original as you can be tried different things each time and have fun just sitting across somebody at the table going to an inventory of questions is often quite dreadful so on occasion you can see that
00:05:09stage a fight to see how we would do imagine us ten years from now I mean this is so much more interesting than why do you work and what you do and how many know what is been you're dating story and to go on to their often enough
00:05:21enosis I haven't thought we know so that we can not be an up so bored and do something completely different we know right away for a match or not that in itself just to you were you would bring to it if the person doesn't relate to it and
00:05:33has zero you more you probably can get up and go I can't believe you like my idea I think it's a very good idea but you know roleplaying is one of the first things we do as kids we love it to be that which we are not to
00:05:49enter the role of someone we are not into leaving that fictitious reality in which we both know that a display but you pretend it is not why would adults not have fun doing that without having to be at a masquerade see I thought I was just making things
00:06:04harder for myself with my fight example and I look causing problems before you actually need them and you're just saying that if we could go through the motions of fight it with no place to play yeah I'm not doing an actual fight you're sick begin also said that
00:06:16let's imagine that we are at the dinner tonight and instead of it being our first date we have been together for twenty five years what you think we would look like if you have a playmate which I think you seem to want someone who shares your sense of
00:06:30creativity and mischievous that would be an amazing moment and I could only imagine couples telling those kind of stories when they are asked later so how did you guys meet she asked me to perform a fight with her she thought why should we do the skip the preliminaries
00:06:47let's go right into it if we were a couple and we were having an argument what do you think it would look like thought it was a very urgent original idea and for me as a single person listening I'm just absorbing all these moments like how can I
00:07:01bring this into my own life you know for this imaginary person who doesn't even exist chat which you may be single today that doesn't mean you haven't been in relationships and the people who are in relationships today may be single or we don't tomorrow so this division between
00:07:16the singles and the Mary it used to be true when people married at eighteen or nineteen and this was their first partner today we have all been in relationships short and long term we all know what it's like the fact that these people are married around longer together
00:07:33adds a dimension but it's not like you do not have relationship experience when you just talk about yourself as a single person who still just trying to date you don't give credit probably to the many other experiences and relationships that you've been in right and you're making me
00:07:50realize how %HESITATION when I do listen to your show you know I'm both learning about this couple but the actual learning that's happening is a very internal process where like every couple's representing some micro moment I've lived in my life some some turns correct I've experienced setting the
00:08:08division that you drew between you know couple to people and to the others today you are in relationships Truro and you're not then you are and then at some point hopefully you make a long run with one person but that doesn't mean that before that you haven't had
00:08:28experiences you have known love lust betrayal sadness heartbreak rejection if not a mall can I ask you %HESITATION advice as a as a single person let's try so how are you I know when I meet the what and how do you know so I'm sorry to tell you
00:08:52that I'm going to debunk the myth for a bit because this pursuit of the one two day has come to mean some very particular thing you know I'm the one is the one who's going to cure me of my case of formal no US so %HESITATION exposed in
00:09:13the that I no longer think that they could find better and you are going to find the cure me of the uncertainty and the self doubt of looking for the one you also are so special that you are the one for whom I'm going to delete my apps
00:09:31and the one when you choose between three people or ten people is not the same as when you choose between an ocean of people at the tip of your fingers and the one used to mean guards the one and only it wasn't the person so there is no
00:09:46doubt one there is someone eighty one and often that a one is at a particular point in time in your life where you say I'm ready to move from love stories to life stories and that doesn't mean that you haven't met many a once before but you were
00:10:05not ready yet often people have at least two or three people in their history that they could just as well have been white but life was at a different place at that time and so that that didn't happen which is part of why so many people today reconnect
00:10:19with their exes because those were the exes with whom they could have been but I was too young I still wanted to travel I still wanted to do some work he was still in college I was already out you know whatever it is so my answer to you
00:10:33is what you know is that you find a person with whom you think you could do a piece of life with a journey of life and that person is not only because of how you feel but also because of what you value love stories are more about Phoenix
00:10:49the values don't matter that much life stories are about vision of life what do you want in your life how do you see yourself living you want kids who don't want kids who want to travel you don't want to trouble you want do you want to be ambitious
00:11:03you want to have a big job life or you want to you know what what do you value are you what are you religious values what is your relationship to your family you know you want to elope you want to so all of these things become part of
00:11:17the life story and that is a decision that you make fascinatingly people always say how do I know when I found the one but they don't say how do I know that this is the person with whom I can be to one I'm turning it on you and
00:11:34you also talk a lot about we might be looking for too much in this person how do we narrow down that list today we think about long term partnership as your intellectual equal your best friend your co parent you'll you're never gonna feel alone again if I were
00:11:50to just near down that list to like two things to look for wanting to look for and what it's not about thinks it's not about things this is the inventory mentality you know what I bite my tree most important priorities on my list you know spent time with
00:12:07the person see how you feel watch them interact with other people have a first date not alone have a first date with all your friends you see how they relate if being extroverted if relating if connecting to your circle matters just you know if you go to sit
00:12:23outside on a bench you won't know much you know bring them into your home you see how they relate to see what they pay attention to you see what they look at you see what what books they have read do you see which paintings they can recognize all
00:12:35of that it's really you know where do they come from one of the things that they have shaped them what advice would you give to the twenty year old self ask some interesting questions rather than what do you do when you know whatever what what so what do
00:12:53you take a stuff like that that people just think sometimes it's very important to us and then you know if you look at your life so far one of the things that have stood out for you when other things that you said the the big discoveries that you
00:13:06have made what are the mistakes that you have made and see how they think see how they are able to take responsibility see how they relate to other speak how they talk about their axis you know if they talk about their excess selected just does not and and
00:13:21I iota of anything positive is not a good sign necessarily you know one day they left those people so when they did left em who were day for you and how were you in relation to them and if they tell you a story in which it's all the
00:13:34other person that did the bad stuff and they haven't done squat that's not to go to senator this is the way I assess and then the next thing is you know let's go do something and see if I find myself six hours later still with that person when
00:13:48I thought we would just spend an hour together then I seem to be enjoying who I am with you it's not who you are only it's how I feel about me in your presence you're just going to say something like like shared I hate to hear this of
00:14:03all the time like you just find shared values and I just I feel so I you're right I needed to think about this work do you like the questions the each of these I find them I wanting again did you is you have a more interesting to me
00:14:20yeah they're more interesting questions it seems easy the to love a lot of things about a lot of people and also especially in the early stages of dating they're a lot more people you can love than people you can make a life with yes so that's you know
00:14:36you're not if you're looking for love partners stories love stories novellas is a whole different program if you say I want to be with somebody and you have someone who has three children and you know that you don't want to enter a relationship with the already there is
00:14:53a family pre existing you kind of have you data I mean I'm just getting one exam like that but it it's like you know if if you say no I actually would love to take that don't really want my own children and I'm very excited to have three
00:15:08children and to my life whoever who already have other people caring for them and what I can become a significant person without having to be the biological mother and you may be the right product but if you want to be number one and even your partners is she
00:15:22or he doesn't matter comes with three kids and then exited to it's a truck but maybe not in the right story yes relationships are stories right so stories I think I hear over and over again as you're you're gonna just know they'll be a spark and you will
00:15:39just now and it's that easy that Cinderella you know what a find extraordinary is that this is spoken by people who think of themselves as wise clever you know sharp foot for good six no you don't you have a sense you wonder then you check and then you
00:15:59get the more sense and then you wonder again and then you go deeper and they all answers you get is what it gives you than you thought you were never going to be interested in those kind of people in here you are and you don't you were never
00:16:11going to be someone who is like this and here you are because you remained open and curious rather than actually sitting with your inventory I think that's the power of the story too isn't it a better story if we just knew when instead of I asked you a
00:16:27million questions and I was pretty satisfied with you wanting some are likely to see you've just made it completely ordinary you should have taken something that when I told you you told was intriguing and you've just completely flattened okay well I asked you a bunch of questions you
00:16:45know yeah it's a different thing you know I decided we would have a very different conversation than the one I was used to have on first dates yeah an adult's let's keep the migration status and the and actually you know how but we we get we ask each
00:17:01other for the night three questions that we don't typically ask gosh I want to take on all my dates now I mean you know it's it's it's do that I'm saying this because I have yet to hear people tell me that they love going out on dates and
00:17:17that it's been an extra they do tell you that they've met many nice people but the experience seems to be quite exhausting the thing is when I break the rules and I start to talk about something deeper he'll give me a look like all this is that we're
00:17:29going deeper this is a really interesting thing happening and how about it for you than if I I discover I don't want to go down that path with him then I don't know then you see interested scare this as I as I receive more information I want to
00:17:46from the other direction and then you say I guess my own and then you finish it early and you go home or you go to your girlfriend had a commensurate but I mean you know there's two ways track interrupted this two ways to get a diagnosis one is
00:18:03you collect information you collect information and on the basis of all the data is I think what may be going on is the other one is you make an intervention and then the response to the intervention is the diagnosis %HESITATION interesting right what mom and kids so that
00:18:22it did so but partners call talk to each other okay the counterfeiters so now we have the information so now I see how about you talk about something the gather big subject but I would like you to discuss with each other you know how you're going to deal
00:18:38with the sense that you bought half that things have not been fair that's an intervention and on the basis of how the conversation goes I will no a lot but instead of going out you cook together it's an interesting thing them income under how many couples have fights
00:18:58about the kitchen right so it cook together and you see what it's like to cook together I just can't imagine making it through a meal I mean I hear this over and over again that people don the first five seconds if this is going to be a good
00:19:11date and make sense that once you get there and you're like I want to get to know this person then let's cut together but it's hard to know is easy yeah but you didn't ask me how do you know that it's not the right to ask me how
00:19:23do you know it is the person you want to be with and that is on the basis of experiencing things together not just knowing not just parking lot is having the hottest sex in the world yeah the sex is one experience but it comes it comes in the
00:19:38context if you ask me how do you know it's not the right person that she takes five seconds it's the others yeah then ask me how do you not know you said how do you know and how do you know is much more subtle and doesn't instantly jump
00:19:53up like that so how important is really incredible good sex at the early stages of dating kicker that Mister recht you in some ways because you know you're you're just blessing out on on all of this six what he did is very important but it is not the
00:20:17end and be our and if you have not had a good experience and you meet someone and you feel for the first time that you connect erratically sexually in powerful ways that you haven't had in so long yes in this relationship this is going to be very important
00:20:35if you've actually had good connections than the fact that this is a good two is a nice but it's in addition it's not the centerpiece what you experience in one relationship the meaning that it gets is dependent of the relationship that preceded it and on your history all
00:20:55together it is not exist for its own sake if you come from a relationship where you couldn't talk than talking to this new person has ten times more importance because it is based on the fact that you come from talk starvation if you come from a related understand
00:21:12if you come from six starvation and you have a powerful intimate connection with this person it will mean a lot more because you remember that disconnect actually be the case the value of something is predicated on the context in which it happens in the context isn't just what's
00:21:27going on between you and the person you're with right now right that's my answer to your question for some people it is very simple for other people that's okay it's nice to good thing to know but now being with someone who's caring kind giving generous attentive listens what
00:21:46is more important and they're willing to make the compromise around the sex and maybe they're making the government is run the sex because the previous one was a perfectly wonderful lover but couldn't listen couldn't his could you know so you can you really need to understand that we
00:22:01have contextual beings and things happen in context and the importance of them depends on the on the larger picture not just on the what's right in front of you so in my daily life as a single woman I feel these dynamics clean out all the time where sometimes
00:22:19like I will look at me like I'm just trying to trap a boyfriend you know and and I look at him like all you just wanna hook up with me in these these are just feel like such tire dynamics do you have a say it out loud now
00:22:31that sounds fun though I would just say you know what I was thinking is this one of those where I did you just want to do this and you take it just for that away each spending time in the other person's head but on the basis of his
00:22:44response you will know if you like the guy or not I mean just that kind of a common to to me how he would respond though she would respond with big enough to have you are Kenya you quit you know I you quit yet you quick imagine that
00:22:59those are things that are important to you know to me that matter so I would say something about that because I care about what I say but I care about seeing what to be it with reaction would be and testing a lot of your research into female desire
00:23:13is has found that those tired assumptions that I'm experiencing my dating life aren't necessarily true that actually women tire of monogamy faster than men that women don't always get what they want out of commitment this is actually based on the research of a dear colleague of mine marta
00:23:31man out there are a number of major women researchers at this point that study the nature of women's sexual desire she's one of them and the I think that when we say it like that I said it a bit facetiously but I think it is worth it to
00:23:47own practice in a what does it mean it means that we have historically seen women's desire as more discriminant than men's decide if a woman wants a man or a woman it is pretty clear that it is him she wants but we see male desire as more indiscriminate
00:24:08hence if a man wants a woman she wants to know it is her prove it what are you willing to do for me to know it's me hence the famous formula of the erotic equation of Jack Morris traction plus obstacle equals excitement it's the obstacle what is a
00:24:28novel a novel is a whole story about an obstacle and at the end they meet no no no not until the third day no no no what what your friends think they missed each other over there what did you know he showed up she wasn't there I mean
00:24:42the whole story of the novel is the series of obstacles and while the obstacles to that being removed dig site meant keeps going and in the end the end of the story is just a day no mafia traction plus obstacle equals excitement so the women say to the
00:25:02partner to the male partner in this instance prove it to me prove that it's me how often when she used to be less responsive sexually we the tendency was to say well it's because she's not interested in sex rather than considering that perhaps she's perfectly interested in sex
00:25:25she's just not interested in the sex you can have and we have misinterpreted women's interests and desires with the lack of desire so when women have the commitment and he's there and he wants her because it's her he that it's not his issue but it's really her issue
00:25:46she got a says it's it's you want it Love Me the misinterpretation that may have happened is that when women lose interest in their partner we have traditionally seen it as women have less interest in sex we could also seats maybe more accurately than women have plenty of
00:26:09interest in sex but they have less interest in the sex they can have women know what excites them but women tend to choose more what the value then what they like what do you feel makes them secure what to give what we give them stability is more important
00:26:29than what turns them on part of courtship there are these necessary stages before you've reached monogamy where there isn't a commitment yet and you're still kind of getting to know each other ask each other all the right questions two thoughts about treating fidelity in those stages where you
00:26:47you don't know how many hands states he's going on that week or whatever look there is no set way of doing it by definition relationships are process of iteration and reiteration at some point you feel like you're comfortable enough and you just say can I ask you something
00:27:08I know why you're meeting me I used to meeting others or you know I stopped seeing others I think I'm getting close I as I am now you can of occupy my mind I'm not thinking anymore about going elsewhere tell me something how would we know that they
00:27:27we both put our apps aside you know I just think we would attend auditing we would feel it there's a whole set of conversations of course they are uncomfortable via vulnerable death sentence because that's the nature of the beast deserve the vulnerable moment do you like to be
00:27:47as much as I think I like you or you seem to like me more than I like you or you seem to want to go faster and deeper than I am thinking of because I'm not so sure of you and yet you seem to be more sure of
00:28:00me is these relations have been part of the making of relationships for ever though digital is changing that every time you come up with an example question it's worded and just sad and just such a better with all the other millions of ways that comes to me naturally
00:28:20I just don't know how you do I it's it's exactly what you meant when you said theater I'm imagining myself in the situation how I would say it what I would say no and I would say you know diss those weird moments where we were supposed to be
00:28:37talking about at advent and make a bet that comment about the comment to kind of or I wouldn't depending on how how intimate and close I feel in the moment and I would just say you know this is the the wave just looked at me says the moment
00:28:51where I want to say you know I'm not thinking about another anymore worries of them say no to me something I know you were for so many years we do ex girlfriend how present issue still for you I'm asking this is that you don't know me squat you
00:29:04don't owe me anything does end up moments where people have any obligation but how we slowly begin to feel that the boundary is being created around us that says a couple is in formation a relationship is about to happen and blossoming love is often quite exclusive at the
00:29:27moment when you are honing in on someone that's what you're doing and you're not thinking about ten others at that time should thinking about ten of us at that time in not holding it generally if you like someone it used to be anyway that then you've pursued it
00:29:43to explore that to see there was no need to go see if there are three others that you like you like then follow it see what happens you know but at this moment it's like I need a certainty in order to decide if I like it enough to
00:29:58pursue it and that certainty you won't get there isn't one at that stage this is a very interesting thing is that people are waiting at the same time to live with the level of freedom that is utterly unprecedented in a way you can literally you know dive into
00:30:16an archive of of of thousands of people but but that comes with self doubt and uncertainty you conduct the same time have the massive amount of freedom and have it a complete in no exquisite certainty at the same time that doesn't work so you do because you say
00:30:35this intrigues me I like it I like him sounded as if there was something there I don't know what I'm meeting him again and if I meet him again on Tuesday I don't need to make another date with somebody else for Thursday there's lots of other things you
00:30:49can do what does it see what happens by by Tuesday night you know if you want another Tuesday and if you want to do the Tuesday then stick to that and then at some point you to say it now now and then you can continue with your toes
00:31:02this but if you want to do we both at the same time you out completely preventing the exploration you want certainty and I'm saying you can't have any certainty but what you can have his discovery the thing I I see myself and my friends we as you come
00:31:21up with all these preventative measures so you don't catch feelings so you so you'd stay call and you're just the call girl or young adults intentionally schedule another date just to kind of to cut its intent think that that you know it's it's an extraordinary thing to see
00:31:38so many people today be so afraid to experience the vulnerability of love of of connection people find more security in an MBA that in a relationship I mean it you know it's amazing that so many relationships even get form but that is the nature of the beast when
00:31:58you begin to like someone they have to do that dependencies created they have power over you not to do bad things it just it's the nature of the fact that you like someone and when you like someone in this power over you and and then from there you
00:32:14continue and you exploring you sense and you go to this is the dance that I have always thought of but at this moment people are willing to just kind of say you know I am I am tough I have no feelings nothing reaches me and then they ask
00:32:32me how do I find the one so of course they want to want to be the one that uses to all their defenses it has nothing to do with the person you enjoy being with its this to do with the person who is who is so god knows
00:32:44what that that person is going to destroy your walls of your defenses and your fears you can ask that of another person it doesn't necessarily have wow did you guys hear that people find more security in an MBA than a relationship week I think we're gonna take a
00:33:10quick break and when we're back we have some listener emails I am going to run by my guest Esther pearl and we're back with Esther proud author of the state of affairs before our interview I did a call out to my listeners yes guys how infidelity has impacted
00:33:39your dating life and now I'm going to read one of the emails that came and from listening John his what he wrote I am a sixty three year old male over educated at twenty I was under educated and in love with someone three years younger than me after
00:33:54she turned eighteen she moved in with me I'm still in love with this woman but I came home one night and I found her in bed with my our roommate I still carry a torch for this woman despite the reality that we have been married to other people
00:34:09for thirty in her case and twenty years in my case what the **** I will go to my grave wondering why so many things life events played out the way they did so I asked a stare what would you tell John when I would ask John you know
00:34:27before I tell a always ask I don't just proclaim things and I would ask John what does he think about twenty six of her is it the person is it the situation is it how he felt slated to betray it reject it diminished humiliated and if she is
00:34:50it that he would like to go and see if she made a better life without him he said that he wants to go and show her what nice of a life he made for him and she missed out is it that there was something in the way that
00:35:03they connected that's still true today had the level of depth and purity or something that he still at times can pine for is it because in that moment he was made to feel so small and who was this roommate is it because it was his first love in
00:35:21his heart had opened up and some from that day on he's never ever opened himself again like that and from there I would have something to say another listener Jill met her ex husband when he was dating another woman and you cheat at and she writes so you
00:35:40could argue that what goes around comes around or that I should have known once a cheater always a cheater so she writes even consuming pop culture sometimes hard she's a hard time with stories that involved gratuitous infidelity she worries about the partner has left behind but then she
00:35:55says it like home by home I to say so it is their way for her to feel permission to as someone who was once involved in an infidelity to be upset about the deli that happened in her marriage of course of course I mean we are not rational
00:36:11people you know when we did it when something is maybe he wasn't seeing that other woman for so long maybe he was already on his way out maybe he had discovered in her the love of his life you ask me why relationships us stories isn't that what we
00:36:26ten so you know maybe he was cheating but what was she doing she was competing she was thinking I'm better than the other one haven't chosen one god knows I don't have any idea what exactly went on for her but the notion that you know she got it
00:36:41coming that it was punitive that this in no of course it was meant to be on her and maybe the other woman actually wish that on her yes we are often thinking about vengeful thoughts they often hope that the other one will experience this pox on both your
00:36:55houses and all of that is part of the human drama she allowed to feel bad about affairs because she was involved in one yes absolutely come on it so that she said to me is being deprived of any %HESITATION indignation because she was part of one she needs
00:37:11to be responsible and think about you know yes I've actually been on both sides of the story when it suited to me I looked at it one way when I was on the other side I looked at it completely differently and I have in me the ability maybe
00:37:26to identify with all the protagonists of destroy anger because I've been all three I've been the other woman have been the wife and that is what actually is true for a lot of people is that they have often experienced this drama this crisis this experience from all angles
00:37:46they've been the child of they've been a friend of they've been one of the key people in the triangle and use that to actually broaden your understanding and the complexity of this whole thing rather than either judge others or judge yourself you know she's got to move on
00:38:06because there's some great media out there about affairs I hear there's really good TV show I think on Showtime which save the good of the concert of the first season one and two this is my book state of affairs she's missing out on a lot and I think
00:38:23you know there there's a way that you could find this really fascinating but there is a sense of I cannot be upset about this because I myself once did it of course you can be upset and shifted it and you need to deal with the fact that you
00:38:37have done contradictory things and you have to be accountable for that and this is true running fidelity needs to around other aspects of life other people she knew that because I was the partner for whom you left someone ends I owe you more we have to be the
00:38:54perfect relationship or maybe I have to worry with that happened to me as well or in a was I that unique away you just simply an unfaithful person last we heard from a listener named mark he's co parenting with his former partner who cheated on him and he
00:39:13worries that a woman would never be attracted to all his package to revise for someone who says that they've given up on dating because loneliness feel safer %HESITATION that is stupid for no people women will not the actually some women will have experience of similar baggage and you
00:39:32will find great comfort in meeting someone else who who knows of your experience and who wants to create a more secure and protected relationship in which such betrayal so breaches won't happen sometimes women will actually really fancy you because you actually are able to co parent very nicely
00:39:51which you rex and you seem to have been able to go and beyond dispute this crisis for use of this idea that the dishes baggage it's life and people the older you get everybody his life don't think you're the only one with baggage and you that special the
00:40:11women you may meet have baggage to different baggage and different baggage baggage is not always negative baggage is the place from which the jury resources from which you draw your strength your lessons and to for your children to see you reconnect with someone else and love again and
00:40:29be joyous may be way more so important than the the fortress that you're building around your loneliness so we should give up on dating you should give up on loving I don't care if it comes to dating or another route instead today it is just the gateway to
00:40:47something you know they love the building together sharing away let once life with someone to being able to have someone to hit that has your back trusting experience to do you know that whole thing that is what you're going for dating is just a means I've been speaking
00:41:05with us they're proud of her new book is the state of affairs and why my listeners I can not recommend her podcast enough it's called where should we began and the first season is available now wherever you get your podcast and the second season I get on my
00:41:18audible out by looking at my Amazon prime account with their apps and all my gosh there's some disease in season two and a soaking thank you so much I got so much out of this conversation like even that moment at the end so we should give up on
00:41:42dating you should give up on loving maybe I get too focused on dating sometimes she makes it sound fun on occasion you can say that stage a fight to see how we would do and next week I'm talking to another sex therapist Chris Donohue he co hosts a
00:42:01leveling podcast with amber rose and when I name dropped a stared at him he had a strong reaction Esther Perot told me I just interviewed over the other day well here's the thing look let's let's actually having a conversation about this for a second so Esther problem you
00:42:20are we're buddies I'll use that word I think her work is really important really valuable but I have a big problem with a couple points you made in the newest book I really do so that's next week we're gonna hear Kristan his issues with Esther's Buck his advice
00:42:34for my dates and more and I don't get this at all but he even had a problem with that pick a fight on your first date it by that's not real that's not real doesn't if I was sitting with you let's say we go on a date okay
00:42:48so you say let's play a game you say twenty years from now I would stop and say you know what we are always changing I've no idea will be in twenty years I have powerful amazing life events that happened and I couldn't ever speak to that okay but
00:43:04I am curious what you guys think what this question work on your first date I dare you to try it out on your next date and report back I'm on Twitter and Instagram at my full name and wrestle and see sorry to take one more break and when
00:43:19we get back we have the weirdest blind strike date that our team has ever recorded and now at last it is time for another blind date today's date is between mark and Jessica he's thirty seven years old she's thirty five years old and they both live in Boise
00:43:55Idaho Maher kicked off the conversation with a real weird question when he considers his ultimate deal breaker little random but it's pretty important and I'd like to know what your thoughts are on the despicable me film franchise who %HESITATION okay %HESITATION I've seen the first one and I
00:44:23thought it was adorable and I laughed and cried and I don't think I've seen any of the others okay yeah okay it's like an obsession and here you hated or what's the deal women who wouldn't enjoy that so I usually can't can relate to you can't really don't
00:44:48women who enjoy the fickle means that the yeah I am sorry I can't I can't deal with it it's like you're burning man questions that's the one that's the determiner that in the case well that's interesting so what is it that you don't like about despicable me have
00:45:06you seen them all no no I I could barely get past the first one and I'm not sure I'm not I don't know I don't remember the circumstance where I had to watch it but I watched it I thought that's probably one of the worst films I've ever
00:45:19seen wow oh wow is violent and I get there isn't okay message but I couldn't believe that I just watch that it's such an intense reaction to a pretty either no harm will be while and you think you are there other animated films that you like are you
00:45:45a month to the corporate it is the top twenty films I've seen I think she's been tired Incredibles is pretty good you do anything later I have a previous engagement I also make a week beauty that's a good one away with them Jan I think a classic hot
00:46:13yeah yeah I'm I'm okay with animated films you don't think it's adorable with a tiny little children and how they come to love him is it just making essential driving you crazy or like no this is my favorite thing in the world yeah a lot of money like
00:46:37male friends they all also hate despicable me yes yes and yes it is I don't know if it's one of one of them beat the women and and someone said so that you see like mystical me and then it's over with only god while %HESITATION yeah I thought
00:46:56it was fine like this last Friday while didn't have any particular genre feeling but what do you have %HESITATION favorite films like a top five that are the ones you go yeah that's a really good film I'm not a big jump in by do you have to do
00:47:13to keep a list of the top one hundred something I've watched in my lifetime and I think I think right now that the top one on there is I think you're not making thirty two all all quiet on the western front it's probably like for this you can
00:47:30get from despicable me it is yet late on what's the opposite of despicable me either saw five or else I don't user like polar opposites do you want to keep talking manner us really does bring up now no no no I'm okay with your answer no it has
00:47:58an inside thing that is important but so the date continued until just commit another grave mistake with her taste in media I'm not into the but like I did you even use the term of magical realism yes at a little turn off a little bit then mark had
00:48:26a proposition for her so %HESITATION if you want you can do to stop me all you want and like I know more about me okay appropriate acceptable online level like creepy find out all the places you've ever lived and contact your mother's sake right okay okay okay so
00:49:03here's what happened next just could ever actually stocked mark instead mark jumped the gun and stopped her until he found her email address and send turned out just goes a bit weird about shouldn't even realize our emails online anywhere and he apparently found it in an old CV
00:49:20needless to say that's good mark never met up our show is produced by knee injuries land sea but then the crowd while our editor is Hillary Frank our artwork changes every week thanks to teddy blanks chips out of my seat our theme music is by any necklace Casey
00:49:45Holford gross here at the viola special thanks to mill about endeavours at panoply next time on why a why sex therapist Chris Donohue knows how to charm a podcast host I'm setting you up with my brother if you knew your he's in Philly yeah and now as promised
00:50:07a sneak peek at a recent episode of the new panoply podcast family goes greetings ghost family welcome to family ghosts so I'm sitting at my desk at my old job when I get a text for my friend Nick Markovic and the text says Hey want to take off
00:50:31work tomorrow and be one of my lifelines on who wants to be a millionaire I'll give you half of whatever I went in on Hudson New York please welcome next month at the time I was an administrative assistant and my job the next day was to hand out
00:50:52lanyards at an all day strategy summit about digital advertising and for reasons still unknown to me I chose that over going with Nick to hang out with Terry crews alright Nick Markovic has the three thousand dollars thank god everybody at that summit got a lanyard a few months
00:51:19ago I received another text neck indicating that he had a pitch he thought might work for family copes from the message my grandfather's body is missing because my aunt stolen I mean I'm in I'm in I'm a tree of self mode you know my you know what the
00:51:38case in style but a live call to sell being learned by now that when Nick sends a text there's usually a good story not far behind I met him at a restaurant and asked him to expand on his message that yeah we did that Chris and while we
00:51:56did Nick explained that what he said in the message is basically all he knows when his grandfather died is not took possession of the body and well it somehow vanished and it's been eating at Nick not to mention the rest of his family for years no one in
00:52:13my family knows where he is so we can't pay our respects and we know it up in the family plot we should put him with I hate to go off Fargo on this but we don't know she put him in a wood chopper yeah I say I'm joking
00:52:28about this because it's so absurd but it's it also hurts because I have very much love my grandfather %HESITATION is that how this is amazing okay so many questions okay Sir I'll bet you can guess what my first question was have you ask dropped but the aunt is
00:52:46unfortunately dead and when she died she took the answers to the other questions with her so this week on the show we're going to try to find Nick's grandpa from panoply you're listening to family ghosts I'm sending men and this is episode three suse clues hear what happens
00:53:18next go subscribe to family goes apple podcast or reverie at your shows you must remember this from panoply is a story telling podcast exploring the secrets and forgotten histories and scandals of Hollywood's first century hosted by me coming along this season I'm interrogating a book that is considered
00:53:46by many to be the are taxed of salacious Movieland casa Hollywood Babylon by Kenneth anger we are examining angers versions of landmark Hollywood legends such as the fatty Arbuckle scandal and the life and death of Rudolph Valentino in an effort to uncover the truth and to reflect on
00:54:10how the seemingly contemporary concept of fake news has played a key role in Hollywood star making and started destroying apparatus since the beginning of the industry to start listening with the current season go to episode number one hundred twenty one D. W. Griffith the Gish sisters and the
00:54:35origin of Hollywood Babylon or go back to the beginning to hear at all you must remember this is available on apple podcasts Google podcasts or wherever you like to listen

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