Full Transcript for Painted Nails. Broken Rules.

gorgeous company that I've never heard of called Fern with two F's, and their whole vibe is that they release uh products um around the sense and the seasons. 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:13.680 Absolutely bespoke, and I I mean it's almost the equivalent of a of a restaurant only cooking on a seasonal and sustainable basis. 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:19.919 But um, they're they're worth following just for the stories that they tell about the seasons. 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:29.520 I just listened to their last podcast, and it's it's a woman walking through the fields talking about how things have changed in between the two months, and it's yeah, it's kind of slow marketing. 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:33.120 It's like the antithesis of the endless here's what you need to do next. 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:36.639 Is the it's the take a look around you and see what you can learn about what's already here. 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:37.439 It's great. 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:38.719 I will check them out. 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:39.280 Fern. 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:41.039 Yeah, I'll I'll look at that. 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:44.159 So look, um, Sam, can you share with the listeners? 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:45.840 Uh, who who are you? 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.879 Well, there's an interesting there is this can go on for some time. 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:54.000 Yeah, with apologies to the listeners already. 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.639 Um I don't I I mean, this is an interesting question, isn't it? 00:02:58.800 --> 00:02:59.680 Who are you, Sam? 00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:04.400 Sam, I uh and I mean you know we go on these big journeys of trying to find yourself. 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:06.719 And uh I've I've been wondering about this question. 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:10.400 Just be yourself, people say, and I always think, who am I? 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:13.120 Um Sam, I've known Chris for many years. 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:22.000 Uh I first came into your work when I used to run a social enterprise called Liberty, empowering young people to find platforms to launch themselves into the world. 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:26.159 I started that in my 20s and ran it for the best part of two decades. 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:31.759 Taught me an awful lot about leadership, but taught me an awful lot about unfairness um and and how the world works. 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.120 If you if you want to get a good lens on that, try and try and support uh less privileged young people. 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:43.520 Um and so I moved away from social enterprise whilst I still love it and and and admire all the people that work in it. 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:46.560 I was frustrated by the ways that things actually got changed. 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:52.080 And I wrote a book about rule breaking, and that probably defined another decade because it was under the banner of piracy. 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:56.080 And so I'm I am also that pirate guy in the way that you must be that Elvis guy. 00:03:56.479 -->

00:03:59.520 I've got tattoos all over me and it changed my life. 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:08.240 And uh I know an awful lot about both the true history of golden age pirates, but also the levers of professional rule breaking, which is what I want to what I tend to call it. 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:15.039 How do we change the rules in a manner that's responsible when bureaucracy gets in our way? 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:27.920 And more recently, I'm I'm I've become a scientist and I would lead the world's largest ever research study into uncertainty and its impact on human beings and provide tools for people to navigate the unknown in ways that lead to creativity instead of anxiety. 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:31.279 So I'm a scientist pirate entrepreneur author. 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:34.000 What a lovely summation. 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:35.040 What a lovely summation. 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.759 Well, look, uncertainty seems to abound right now. 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:43.680 I would imagine your services will be uh will be much in demand because the world is a crazy, crazy place. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:45.040 It certainly is. 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:53.920 It is uh statistically the most uncertain time in human history, which is obviously a daft thing to say considering it's always been the most uncertain time in human history. 00:04:54.079 --> 00:05:00.240 But the World Uncertainty Index has been recording this, uh, and in particular since 2008, the financial collapse. 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:11.600 And by its standards, and obviously this is economists, so you know, about as reliable as astrology, um uh we are three times as uncertain as we were in the depths of COVID. 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:17.199 So just as one indicator as to where we where we are and what's coming next. 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:18.160 Wow. 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:26.160 Well, look, um lovely to have you on because um, you know, obviously we're about energy and leadership and culture, and you have some very specific spins on that. 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:29.920 So um I'm I'm looking forward to seeing what insights will come my way. 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.480 But let's start with tell us a story you love to tell that people love to hear. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:36.959 I re I mean, I just love that question. 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:50.959 Um I I I've thought about it, and I am really uh it's either lucky or I have a real or your question, and maybe this is in fact, as I say, maybe this is obviously deliberately to tab into a bit of a relay, isn't it? 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:58.399 Because the ego boost that I have had throughout the years in that moment of people, you know, when you get the chance to tell the story and people are like, well, that's interesting. 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:00.560 And you're like, I haven't even started. 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:07.920 Uh and you've you know you've got someone in you, and and for me, incredibly luckily, those have been the big chapters of my life.

00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:10.639 Liberty was that, you know, we run a market scan, it helps young people. 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:29.920 Tell me more, you know, the the tens of thousands of stories of young people that I could uh recount because they were the lifeblood of a business, of a material business, or pirates and the unexpected story of of golden age pirates that everyone thinks they know as Jack Sparrow, but actually how that had become a a lever for change in the turn of the 21st century. 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:31.680 Um so on and so forth. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:39.120 But I'm also a bit fickle, and I have a I've realized over time that I have about you know a three-year professional attention span. 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:48.000 So um I have to go with the thing that's really exciting me at the moment, the story that I really love to tell, is when people ask me why I've got my nails painted. 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:56.319 Uh as a 50-year-old, you know, straight white man, uh, I get quite a lot of quite a lot of funny looks. 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:06.079 And um, when I first got them painted, it's it's begun a story that's really taken up a large part of my attention for the last couple of years, and it's probably going to define what I do for the next couple of years. 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:07.839 So I'll I'll tell you that one if that's right. 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:09.120 That'd be beautiful. 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:09.680 Thank you. 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:10.560 All right. 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:21.759 Um my daughter turned 10, and we I took her to Harry Styles, and you get dressed up to go and see Harry Styles, which is an appropriate thing to do. 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.120 So we decided, she decided she'd like to go and get her nails done properly. 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:29.040 So I took her to the nail salon, but neither one of us had ever been, we had a glorious time. 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:31.680 Saw Harry, had an even more glorious time. 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:37.680 Uh, the weekend comes to a close, and it's Sunday night, and I asked my wife for the nail polish remover. 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.839 And my wife says, You can't take those off with nail polish remover, you idiot. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.399 They're they're gels and shellacks or whatever it is. 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.879 Um, and it turns out you have these things on your nails that would survive the bloody apocalypse, right? 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.439 They are not not going anywhere. 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:57.600 So Monday rolls around, and I just have to go to work and into meetings, and these these conversations happen. 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:03.120 And and before the conversations, this silent judgment happens, and the people are looking, and what's this? 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:08.560 And by the end of the week, the conversations range from so are you coming out now, Sam? 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:10.480 Are you starting a campaign? 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:12.480 Uh, can I talk to you about my daughters? 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:16.399 I'm really concerned about the overall narrative of violence against women. 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.439 My son's getting-I mean, it just went on and on. 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:42.320 Like I was all of a sudden the fountain of all knowledge of masculinity and gender fluidity, which of course, like for many years and for many thousands of men, far braver than me, of all different persuasions and perspectives, people have been getting their nails praited intentionally to challenge gender rigidity and and heteronormative stereotypes and harmful biases. 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:44.960 Mine was literally just to go to a Harry Styles concert. 00:08:47.039 --> 00:09:09.200 You and I uh will have had a similar outlook on what it means to be a man as we've grown up, and you and I will probably experience how hard it is for most men to talk about a lot of these topics, and yet there they were this little signal that said, Come and talk to me about your concerns about masculinity right now in a world that seems like masculinity is part of the problem, and that doesn't necessarily feel fair to most of the men who are quite decent and not very toxic, just exhausted. 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:20.799 But all we hear around us is about toxic masculinity, and we desperately want to do something, but I'm actually really nervous, and so it falls into the same category as the millions of men who find it very hard to seek help. 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.799 The the the reason that suicide is the biggest killer of men in their 50s, the these things are all connected. 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:42.799 So I went on a journey, carried on getting my nails done, fell in love with it, uh, started writing a bit about it on my newsletter, encouraging other men to try it out and tell me what their experiences were, to the point that I got 50 blokes to a nail salon in East London with a friend of mine who does diversity and inclusion stuff to help me understand it. 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:49.200 These blokes had their own very moving experiences, which convinced me there was really and truly something in this. 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:54.559 So last year, with academic oversight, I ran it as a large-scale social experiment. 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.399 Over 400 men signed up, every region of the country. 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:15.440 They uh took a series of psychological scales, uh, a rigidity to identity and masculinity norm scale, an empathy scale, and something that's known as the man box scale, which by the way is worth delving into for a second because it explains an awful lot of things. 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:25.200 The man box was identified as a psychological construct that holds men back, and it holds men back from being their best selves and it holds men back from helping others. 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:32.799 The man box asks you a series of questions, such as you know, is looking after

yourself, is looking after your image a manly thing to do? 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.039 Uh, can a gay man be a real man? 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.639 Is it ever appropriate to use violence to defend yourself and your family? 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:45.279 A set of questions that will have results depending on your experience of life and where you are on that scale. 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:45.759 Sure. 00:10:46.639 --> 00:11:05.039 But if you answer all of the questions in an extreme way, the this scale that's been studied extensively over the last several years, uh reliably indicates men who are more at risk of harm to themselves and harm to others, from domestic violence to violence against women to self-harm and suicide. 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:14.559 And the other end of the spectrum can be seen as a uh a morph between toxic and healthy masculinity, although those terms themselves can be problematic. 00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:18.480 Um, and so we began to think, well, maybe we can measure this, right? 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:19.840 So we we began to look into it. 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:25.919 400 men signed up, hundreds of them took part, they went to salons in groups, they they got their nails painted by their daughters. 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:27.360 However, they did it was fine with us. 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:35.200 All they had to do was wear their painted nails for a week and go about their daily business work, sports, gym, whatever they were uh part of their life. 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:47.120 Keep a series of anonymous diaries, join a WhatsApp group they wanted to, uh, some focus groups, it was a robust set of research studies, and then they took the scales again, and it was phenomenal. 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:48.159 Really? 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:48.879 Yeah. 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:52.960 Air to a man, they all left the salon uh expecting violence. 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:54.399 They expected to get attacked. 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:55.039 Wow, yeah. 00:11:55.279 --> 00:12:03.440 Yeah, you know, imagine you're you're you're an ordinary guy, bright pink nails, and they thought they were gonna get assaulted. 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:09.600 So for 24 hours they're on defense mode, being strong enough to defend their you know what they thought was feminine or gay nails. 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.200 These are the words that are being used. 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:17.840 And then there's this kind of disappointment when they had to come off high alert and these uh where did these stereotypes come from? 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.720 Why did I think this might be misinterpreted as a challenge of my sexuality or my identity? 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:28.799 And then the first comment they got was usually nice nails, mate, you know, from like a barista or someone. 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:30.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:32.159 I don't know what the fuck is this? 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.320 And then gradually conversations began to emerge, and

they were universally positive. 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:42.000 People younger than them, people who were strangers to them, people in their offices saying, I love that. 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:47.519 This is a wonderful, you know, thanks for you know, this this brave act of representation, or why are you doing this? 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:48.159 What's behind it? 00:12:48.320 --> 00:13:00.159 And then they found themselves getting into useful and interesting conversations, the likes of which they'd never had, sometimes with their family members, sometimes with daughters, sometimes crossing bridges they'd never had the the opportunity to do. 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:10.159 And then the final stage this introspection, this oh my god, what I thought was weakness has been a form of strength. 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:17.759 What else have I been holding on to throughout my life as a man that has held up these ideas of masculinity and being a strong bloke? 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:24.720 You know, from bad clothes I wear to the music I say I like to the conversations I do and don't have to the times I've shown my emotions, and and that's the man box. 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:26.080 It's four scales. 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:34.320 One being that strength is exhibited by dominance, one that emotions will always lead to you to weakness, one that success is a uh heroic journey. 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:44.799 So, you know, as I say it, it sounds like so many aspects on the spectrum of leadership that we both know, you know, and and some of those drivers do lead to leadership, and some of those drivers are still very caught up, you know. 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.360 Strength and dominance, of course, they sit together and vulnerable. 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:48.879 It's challenging, right? 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:55.759 But there's not a story in the news cycle at the moment where masculinity isn't one of the ingredients, and it's usually a harmful character. 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:58.559 So we got to the end of it. 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:02.559 Uh 92% of the men have moved positively on every single one of the scales. 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:10.159 There's an 84% increase in men who say that they've actually spoken up in defense of others or taken part in taboo topics or conversations. 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:17.360 There's a 40% increase in a uh sense of confidence about topics that otherwise I mean it was phenomenal in terms of the response. 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:25.519 And it's because in the academic oversight we we had, we discussed it at some great length, and we ended up choosing a very strong word, which was the men had an epiphany. 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:39.279 An epiphany has a definition because there was a visceral response of fear, and then a massive cognitive dissonance between expectations and reality, and then a level of introspective depth that we all rarely get to. 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:49.919 You then you then move, and it's all summed up with with one

guy, Max, who's a public speaker, facilitator, stand-up comedian, you know, thick skinned basically, and also an enormous football fan. 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:57.519 Max goes with his nails to watch the football, gets to the pub, hand on the door in front of him, looks down at his hand, looks at the pub door, hand on, thinks, fuck that. 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:58.879 I'm not going into the pub tonight. 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:00.000 I don't want to put up with that. 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:08.480 And as he walks home, he suddenly considers all the other people in the world who don't get to go where they want to go for fear of feeling safe. 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:23.759 And of course, it's not the same as being trans or being black or being a woman at night, but most men have never walked a millimeter in those shoes, and for a second, there's a depth of experience and empathy that brings us closer together rather than further apart. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.360 And so I'm I've been sitting on this data and trying to work out what the hell to do with it. 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:32.879 And I feel ridiculous to suggest that painting their nails could be the answer to one of society's biggest objectives. 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:47.120 Here we are between everything from Louis Thoreau's new documentary to the impact that adolescence has and looking at you know these tyrannical male despots at the tops of our organizations, and I'm here suggesting that I'm gonna get men to get their nails done as some kind of answer. 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:48.399 I mean, it's pretty fucking mad. 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.720 But that is what I'm about to set out to go and do because the evidence is really clear. 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:54.399 It's really clear. 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:54.639 Yeah. 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:55.519 It's really clear. 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:59.679 And look, I um sometimes the simplest accidents give you the best breakthroughs, right? 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:03.200 So um in this particular case, well done Harry Stiles, you know. 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.519 You know, but I I've I can really connect with this. 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:12.480 I have uh I've got a friend who used to be part of a business called Fairy Love, right? 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:24.399 And they used to do uh all this, it's an Australian thing where kids, when they're when they're young, they dress up as fairies and they used to have all these big fairy parties, and they brought it to Glastonbury and would dress up all these people at festivals, right? 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:26.960 And they they decided to take it a bit further. 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:40.159 And I remember being in uh in the middle of Herefordshire in a little market town of Leadbury, and he made me wear fairy wings on a weekday, and I had to go up to strangers and give them wishes. 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:44.240 Um, burley farmers, actually, is what he he chose for me. 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.279 And a wish, I had to put a little bit of glitter on their face. 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.720 Uh, and honestly, I was in that place petrified. 00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:53.840 I was like, someone is gonna knock me out. 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:55.679 Um, and you know what? 00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:09.359 All I got was warmth, all I got was connection, and and I I had a bit of a revelation there that actually my appreciation of what masculinity was like and how I showed up was all boxed, to be honest. 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:21.920 So you know that was quite an extreme example, but I can I can really connect with how um something like nails can actually shift identity in quite a substantive way and in a very surprising way. 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.119 So so I you know, I I I love that story. 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.359 I'm I'm really interested to see where you go with this. 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:32.240 Well, uh the my plan, I'm literally this week I've been writing the the web copy. 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:43.440 Uh I've been researching male influencers and not your average masculinity influencers, but blokes with a big following who give DIY techniques or gardening techniques or you know Excel spreadsheet techniques. 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:54.160 Um uh I've been working with some salons around the country who'll be willing to host men's evenings um or maybe give me you know discounts or or offer wives and girlfriends to bring in their blokes. 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:55.759 Uh I've been looking at the research. 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.440 Are we measuring the right scales? 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.359 Um, what's the other research out there around it? 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:13.519 So we're gonna go again in October 2026, and I'm gonna try and get 10,000 men this time, because if I get 10,000 men this time and I double it every year, that means by 2030 I'll have nigh-on 330,000 men. 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:25.680 That's 3.5% of the adult male, the midlife male population in this country, which is both where you have the highest suicide rates, but it's also where you have arguably the greatest influence on society. 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:48.960 That's where you have the senior police officers, that's where you have the heads of business, that's where you have the gatekeepers of inclusivity and diversity in pursuit of genuine advances in growth, not not like from a cultural perspective, but like how do we open the gates and doors of society in a way that's more progressive and uh egalitarian in a way that helps every aspect and brings up, raises up the levels of every aspect of society. 00:18:49.119 --> 00:19:00.000 And there's a there's a idea that if you can move 3.5% of a population, in fact, the argument is no social movement that's achieved 3.5% engagement in a population has ever failed. 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:01.920 So that's the ambition. 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.960 Can we can we look at a very society in the 2030s? 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:10.400 Because

masculinity and its rigidity affects everything from safety to sustainability. 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.640 Yeah, no, it really does. 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:24.319 And I think you know, there are um getting some more tolerance and love and connection with people who aren't like I mean my my daughter's trans, and bless her, she you know, she gets shouts out on the street every day. 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:31.279 She she's been beaten up for just being trans because you know, there's a difference that we're not we're not comfortable with. 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:39.119 And if we can just get some simple movements around identity and a bit more connection to humanity, uh, I think it can make a huge difference. 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.240 So I love this project. 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:41.759 I think this is fantastic, Sam. 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:42.640 Lovely to hear. 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:44.960 And if I can help it anyway, give me a shout. 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.519 Uh, I am gonna quote you on that. 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:48.559 Um I might record it. 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:49.440 It's here, mate. 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:50.799 It's from the Somerset, are you? 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:52.079 You're in you're in the West. 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah, southwest, yeah. 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:54.640 Right. 00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:06.960 Uh when we get started, I'd be looking for folks who have decent uh followings and friendship groups, and I will find a salon who will host us, and you and I will get some uh drinks together, you get the dudes, and I will organise the nails. 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:08.319 Deal on, deal on. 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:09.440 Well, look, I love that. 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:11.599 Um so look, next question. 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:18.720 Um What is the single most important thing about bringing the genius of our people? 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:34.720 Uh so you're gonna have to stop me parroting a press release here because this is this is my this is my present work, and but I'll I'll say it not in pursuit of promoting my book, which is available now on Amazon. 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:42.079 Um but because I've researched this very thoroughly and diligently for the last four and a half years, and I can give you two words. 00:20:42.240 --> 00:21:05.119 Uh uncertainty tolerance is uh undoubtedly the most important thing in releasing whether you call it genius or potential or opportunity, or and the reason why genius spoke to me on this is because uh uh when so uncertainty tolerance was first discovered in the 1990s uh by two psychologists researching anxiety, medication, and reduction. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.599 Uh turns out uncertainty is the biggest single driver of anxiety disorder in the world. 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:13.279 Um, and it's the fundamental of all human fears is the unknown. 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:18.000 And and so it's been studied uh extensively. 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:27.680 So it can be called uncertainty

tolerance as a as a it's a you can we can we can simplify it as a skill, and and for your listeners, uh it's easy to think about uncertainty tolerance as a leadership skill. 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.200 Technically, it's a leadership, uh it's a it's a neural capability. 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:47.920 And when uncertainty tolerance is down, it is causally linked to lower rates of empathy because we don't understand, we we we don't like people, we we we we feel scared by them, um, higher rates of exhaustion because uncertainty affects us physically in the body and the nervous system as well as in the in the brain. 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:53.519 We become our biases and our prejudices go up, so we literally and measurably become more closed minded. 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:59.759 We default to patterns of previous um experiences, so like kids who see faces in the shadow. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:08.319 Or all of us who see stories in the spreadsheets that aren't there, or that boss that we've all had who's always got one idea and it always comes out when they're, you know, when they're in trouble. 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:24.880 Um and yet when uncertainty tolerance goes up, our capacity for wider decision making increases, our capability to uh consider broader horizons, our ability for divergent thinking to see patterns that we couldn't previously see. 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.119 Uh groupthink disappears. 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:31.839 I mean, it's been studied in elections, we are less likely to go for extremism. 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.519 It's profound. 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.920 And it's rare that you get something that's such a complete silver bullet or a red thread. 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:44.160 But it in medical science terms, it's what's known as a trans diagnostic because it sits across so many challenges. 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.079 So it's a it sounds like I might be overselling it, but please feel free to look it up. 00:22:48.799 --> 00:23:03.680 Uncertainty tolerance, uh if you can increase the uncertainty tolerance of an individual or a team, you you almost arguably can increase their genius because they can uh measurably conceive of things that they couldn't previously see or do or feel or be. 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:11.839 And they're less uh defined by the previous patterns of their life, and they're more capable of being able to imagine what they couldn't see or feel before. 00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:22.480 Well, I'm sold on this because I mean I spend a lot of time helping people with their energy and obviously understanding our inbuilt negativity bias and the way we react to things subconsciously is a big part of kind of what I do. 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:24.400 So totally with you. 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:30.880 How uh from your research do we develop that ability? 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.799 Uh shorthand is read our book. 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:43.440 Um, the the the longhand is um I've been working on this in I we we've we've developed in numerous different formats. 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:44.240 It's currently a book. 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:55.119 We started as a course, I worked on it for two years with Netflix, making it as a documentary, and um irregardless of the format, there's one thing that consistently stands true, and it's the framework that sits behind it. 00:23:55.200 --> 00:24:00.880 And and so that there's something that listeners can get their hands on, it's it's this. 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:09.920 Uh, the other, and I promise this is my last wonky scientific term, transdiagnostic is one way to understand the importance and strategic benefit of uncertainty tolerance. 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:16.640 And and the way that, and this is often difficult for leaders, uh, uncertainty is psychobiological. 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:27.440 The challenge for leaders, particularly in the last decade, um, and and and beforehand, with the kind of way that we've approached leadership, is that we can think our way through most problems. 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:33.359 Uh, that there's a probability framework for this, or there's a spreadsheet that will get me through, or there's a model that exists. 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:36.079 And fair enough, there often has been. 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:49.599 But in a world where many of our problems are increasingly paradoxes, and there isn't a clear binary outcome, and we have to tolerate not knowing, then a lot of those probability frameworks become more and more fragile. 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:57.839 So the opportunity in uncertainty is to understand that uncertainty is not just a thought process, you can think your way through it, but it's a felt process. 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:06.079 And you've just alluded to this, the sensation of the unknown or the unexpected triggers a threat response, and that threat response will reduce your cognitive ability. 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:22.640 So, unless we are able to conceive and admit that there is a felt response, and having a felt response isn't an emotional weakness, but it's a it's a strength and an aptitude, and that there is data in our body and those emotions that can help our brains make good decisions, we'll never get great uncertainty. 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:39.680 But when we convince leaders of this and we tap them into skills such as interreception or embodied cognition, and you know, lots of leaders need scientific terms to feel confident about our natural elements that keep us alive, and lots of you know, thousands of year-old wisdoms are very attuned to something happens. 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:44.640 Now, so the simple evidence for this is ask anybody what they think about uncertainty, and they'll give you a balanced reply. 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.200 It can be a pain in the neck, but it can take you to new places, right? 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.480 And that's that's everyone's lived experience, and that's what we believe. 00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:58.559 Then ask them how

uncertainty makes them feel, and you will get probably about 80% of the responses will be a negative set of emotions. 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.680 And I know this because I've asked 30,000 people. 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:09.359 And so I've grouped every single negative emotion that people describe around uncertainty, and they all fit into one of three clusters. 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:12.960 And by understanding those three clusters, we understand why uncertainty is a problem. 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:18.559 Because it sounds like, oh, you know, of course, this fragility is a moment where we should be investing and innovating. 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.720 Of course, this new technology is something that we should all be adopting so that we've got the skills for the future. 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.400 You know, we know the narrative, but how does it feel? 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:33.920 And that probably shows up as sabotage and self-doubt and inner criticism and all of these problems because the feelings and the thoughts are so different. 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.799 Um, so the three clusters uncertainty makes me anxious, fretful, worried, and scared. 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:40.000 So we call that fear. 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:43.440 Uncertainty makes me confused and decisive, a bit circular. 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:44.160 I'm just not sure. 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:45.119 So we call that fog. 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.839 Uncertainty makes me feel stuck, listless, like I've lost my mojo. 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:51.279 So we call that stasis. 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.440 So fear, fog, stasis. 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.480 It's never been challenged, nothing's ever sat outside of those three. 00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:59.599 You'd explain that to your team, everyone feels very seen and heard. 00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:02.319 Sometimes people are experiencing one, sometimes all three. 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:03.839 That's a very tricky time. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:17.519 Um, but by getting into the the subterranean, the the iceberg effect, the underlying notion, because they're words that are hard to articulate, they're hard to admit, but those are the natural and protective and very important emotions of uncertainty. 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:22.559 And by recognizing them, realizing them, and then reducing them, you can bring your the best of your brain back online. 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:40.559 And then with those two aspects in coordination, that is how the kind of magic sounds a bit bit far-fetched, but the genius potential of uncertainty where people do things that they didn't think they could do before, when the breakthroughs come, because it's the emotions that put on the brakes. 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.400 And I'm very, very, very proud of this. 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.400 I didn't um do very well at education. 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:47.519 My I I still remember my GCSE science teacher, Dr. 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:50.319 Phillips, telling me my atoms would amount to nothing. 00:27:51.359 --> 00:28:02.960 And now a published scientist, uh, the fact that the acronym of fear, fog, and stasis is the is the baseline of my um published work, uh FFS to the world, makes me very, very proud. 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:04.319 Yeah, well, you should be. 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:10.559 Uh and it look, it's a beautiful articulation of something that actually is quite complex to a lot of people's experience. 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:14.559 Um, and kind of understanding how that works is the the first step, right? 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:22.640 Because if we can understand the way that our design works so that we just get a bit more awareness and therefore choice, that's the first way in, right? 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:23.200 Yeah. 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:24.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:24.799 Yeah. 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:25.519 Love it. 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:29.039 Well, I'm looking forward to reading that book that's uh that's fast approaching. 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:30.240 Um it will be. 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:32.319 You give me your address afterwards and I will send you a copy. 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.400 There's a QR code at the beginning and at the end. 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.079 We've tested in a neuroscience lab. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.880 You can get an actual measure in a score by reading the book. 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:40.640 First book of its kind that does that kind of thing. 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.039 And it will help you on the journey of our nails. 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:44.160 You know, these things are all connected. 00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:45.200 They're high you're on television. 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:48.559 They're all connected. 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:50.799 Well, look, my my final question, Sam. 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:54.480 What is it that gives you hope? 00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:57.680 Pirates. 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:00.559 Uh pirates, yeah. 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:05.759 And and this is where yours and my journey is like, you know, what one day we should have a pirate versus Elvis like battle. 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:20.559 I spent a long time looking at the personification of an archetype uh that exists in people's minds and in culture, and with such depth and such resonance, and what happens when you step not just into its shadow, but into its suit. 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:25.359 Um and my exploration with pirates, you know, it was 10 years ago. 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.799 It was a book in retrospect. 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.599 I wrote a book called Be More Pirate uh 10 years ago. 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:31.599 In retrospect, I wrote it to myself. 00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:36.559 That only became clear when I read it a few years after and I read the last chapter, and it was just a message to myself. 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.680 I was in a very I wasn't in the best place. 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:41.599 Uh, I felt quite trapped. 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:51.920 Um I I'd loved

building this business, but it now got to a point that I, you know, like I say, I've realized now in my later stages of life that I have a professional attention span and it had thoroughly run out. 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.799 I'm a good startup founder, I was a terrible CEO, awful troublemaker. 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:03.680 Uh and so I was caught in the wrong position, and I wasn't in a relationship that was particularly good for me or anyone else. 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:05.759 And yet I thought I was doing the right thing. 00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:10.319 I thought I was being a grown-up, and I was trying very, very hard to be the man that I wasn't. 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:19.759 And and so the internal external exercise was an argument about how we actually make a difference and why I thought so much of entrepreneurship and innovation was flawed. 00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:27.440 The internal exercise that I didn't realize I was actually doing some work on was my own kind of uh need for independence and freedom and creativity. 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:46.000 And the outcome of it was a book written with a lot of love and a fuckload of mistakes, um, but a huge amount of passion and a and and the story that very few people know, which is the true history of pirates, golden age pirates, the Jack Sparrow, Captain Hooker pirates, are actually part of the long arc of the English working class and the role that they've played for fairness and equality all around the world. 00:30:46.079 --> 00:31:01.200 And we understand the levellers and the Chartists, and we understand the trade union movement and the cooperative, and we understand the suffragettes and the fight for workers' rights, and we understand that they're all connected, but there is a missing gap in the early part of the 1700s, and that's where golden age pirates were. 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:03.680 That that's genuinely their lineage. 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:13.039 They they they then move into the cooperatives and the trade unions, uh, and they were inspired by the uh all of the other efforts of the English working class fighting for equality beforehand. 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:25.119 But because they represented such a threat to democracy, their story was rewritten um in the history books, and we now have them as these foolish, lovable rogues and villains that we let our children dress up as, which is a unique place in history. 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.880 There are no other murderous villains that we uh you know characterize in such a way. 00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:30.799 And I've I've tried that many times. 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:36.720 I've suggested mafia-themed parties for my kids and have parties, and it never works. 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:38.880 Only pirates hold that space. 00:31:39.599 --> 00:32:11.440 And in this work, I have the deep privilege, um, as I'm sure you and as I know you do, when you let people step into a uh an avatar that in one hand represents something that we feel deeply and

fondly about, and it represents adventure, it represents a willingness to swash a buckle and and and and you know swing through the bullshit of your life and put a cutlass to the neck of the bureaucracy that holds you back and sit on a cannon and blast through all the bollocks. 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:14.480 Like we all want that so much, a little bit. 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:17.279 And you can't be a pirate at the time, it's bloody exhausting. 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:18.240 Um, I've tried. 00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:23.440 Uh, but you can be a pirate when you get stuck, and that is a gift and a liberation. 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:27.440 And and I thought this work would be, you know, I thought it would be a book, I thought it'd be interesting. 00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:41.440 I didn't know that 10 years later I would be running workshops with senior leaders uh upon whom other people's lives depend upon, and it would help them create breakthroughs that would lead to innovations that could save organizations millions or save lives. 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:44.160 And and you know, I cannot believe what it does. 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:48.400 But it does what it does because of two things, and this is why it gives me hope. 00:32:48.720 --> 00:33:07.519 I have been eternally surprised at how closely even the most senior leaders, even people I respect deeply, even the ones that have got their fingers on the buttons that determine our all of our futures, how closely everyone holds on to the exact same stories that hold them back, and it's remarkable. 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:14.160 Here's the thing, it's been holding me back my whole life, and I'm never ever ever going to put it down because it kind of makes me feel weird. 00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:20.559 I mean, and we're all in this pretty, you know, interesting uh relationship with our limitations. 00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:34.480 And to watch someone put on a pirate hat metaphorically, I don't make people do that, that would be cheesy, but you know, metaphorically and emotionally, and and challenge some of their own rules and limitations, uh, and watch that freedom is fucking amazing. 00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:41.119 And what I experienced, because I couldn't believe its success, it wasn't, you know, like I say, subconsciously, I was just writing it for myself to see someone else do something with it. 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:42.640 It's like, wait, what are you doing? 00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:49.519 So I wrote a sequel book called How to Be More Pirate, which wasn't me just trying to ruthlessly exploit the success of the first, although it might look like it. 00:33:51.119 --> 00:34:00.480 A woman far cleverer than me, whose background was genuinely in social innovation, she now runs the pirate community because I wanted to see that it existed, you know, not through the lens of my own ego. 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:06.640 Uh, and she conducted a series of interviews with organizations and individuals who put it into practice and

made it work in ways that I never would have imagined. 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:07.200 And you know what? 00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:14.880 There's one word that came out pirate, and then people say they've been a pirate, is just a proxy for permission. 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.400 And when people give themselves permission to do something, there's very little they can't do. 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:32.800 And so even though it's 10 years old, even though I never ever dreamed it would be anywhere near the success it has, or I'd still be doing it, or that you could get away with, you know, using pirates as a replacement for you know leadership. 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:39.679 Uh, when I see people give themselves permission to let go of the stuff that holds them back, I'm deeply hopeful for humanity. 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:40.480 Yeah. 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:43.280 Well, yeah, um, what a great place to be. 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:49.199 And I love the fact that you after all that work with all those people, it boils down to permission. 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:49.920 Yeah, man. 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.199 Uh I mean it's a it's a pretty fundamental insight. 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:55.360 Uh, Sam, I have loved talking to you. 00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:57.039 I think we could do this for days, quite a bit. 00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:57.519 I think so. 00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:58.159 I think we should. 00:34:58.880 --> 00:34:59.440 We should. 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.840 Um, what nails you're gonna get done, Chris? 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:03.360 How are you gonna bring a bit of Elvis to the net? 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:04.880 I mean, you're gonna have to go really hard. 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:07.360 That's exactly what I'm gonna have to do. 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.760 Um I I've already got my mind spinning. 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.719 My well, my daughter, her nails, they're about this long. 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.800 So maybe, maybe I'm I don't know how she picks anything up, but that's what she does. 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:18.719 Um, so so what's coming up? 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:20.719 What were you excited about in the future? 00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:22.159 I'm excited. 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:28.159 Uh I'm excited because I'm about to get old. 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:36.159 Um I'm I'm arriving at an age if you never asked younger Sam, I would have assumed I'd retired or something. 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:38.639 Um and it's remarkable. 00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:41.599 I mean, I I once read a uh uh about the surprise of turning 60. 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:46.159 I'm not quite 60, but certainly the surprise of turning old and not feeling old is a real thing. 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:50.079 And and I don't just feel the same, I feel something shifting. 00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:54.079 I've never been a particularly good leader, although leadership has always interested me. 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:58.559 I think there's aspects that I do well, but but the the leader manager bit

of teams. 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:00.639 Uh and now I'm part of a team. 00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:05.519 We sold the uncertainty experts last year to a wonderful learning company. 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.599 It wasn't the biggest deal in the world, it wasn't gonna, you know, it wasn't lottery type things. 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:17.920 It was a strategic decision to go with a firm that I respected and a leader that I loved to turn it into something that I never would have been able to do. 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:18.639 And that's the point. 00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:23.599 I'm not a CEO or a leader or an entrepreneur who's ever scaled something successfully. 00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.800 And I've had enough experience of having great ideas and seeing them be not fully realized. 00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:32.320 Um and and I'm now part of a team. 00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.960 And that's not my normal spot, right? 00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.960 I'm not the boss, I'm not the most interesting person, I don't get the first word or last word. 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:45.199 Uh my job is to turn what we've made into the best thing that it can be as part of a team. 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:48.079 And that's really interesting for me, and I really respect it. 00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:54.960 And and they've got tons of brilliant corporate clients who can, you know, unlock these uncertainty tools for the for the growth and sustainability that they need. 00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.719 But it means I get to do the stuff that I never would have been able to do when we were a short team. 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:05.760 So I'm looking at how we run it with the police and in prisons and in with teachers and in schools, and it's incredible. 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:07.920 But it's also a part it's given me a part-time job. 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:12.960 I haven't had a job for 20 years. 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:16.719 Well, you happen unemployable, pretty much, yeah. 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:17.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:20.880 Yeah, I mean, and I say that with love and respect to my CEO, poor guy. 00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.960 Um, and and luckily he's he's the nicest of guys. 00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:30.320 Uh and so um, yeah, I am genuinely entering into a very, very new world. 00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:32.639 And I mean, I have funny dreams about it. 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:35.599 I dream about him being my dad, and I dream about being trapped under underground. 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:37.440 So there's obviously some like inner fears going on. 00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:39.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:40.320 It's perfectly normal. 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:50.880 Um but it feels like an appropriate challenge for the age I'm at, the stage I'm at, the maturity of the ideas that I've got, the the you know, the the things we're supposed to do that you and I advocate, you know, do the thing that scares you most. 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.800 Probably one of the things that scares me most is growing up. 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:56.480 And and I say growing up in inverted commas because I think that generally that's a trap. 00:37:56.719 --> 00:37:59.199 But can we mature these ideas that we've had? 00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:05.199 Can we deliver them at scale, not for scale's sake, but for the the sake of increasing their impact? 00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:11.280 You know, that feels very frightening to me, and they're therefore very challenging and probably hopefully very rewarding. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.519 When you say it, your energy is very grounded. 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:17.760 Yeah, thanks. 00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:20.880 I I it's funny, it taps into a place, and I have never been there. 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:24.480 Grounded is not the word anyone who knows me would have ever used. 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:25.840 No, I like it. 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:26.400 I like it. 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.880 That's a nice combination, nice Sam combo there. 00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:29.360 Yeah. 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.679 Well, um, it's been an absolute pleasure. 00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:33.039 I we're gonna hang out more. 00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:34.559 I can feel it, it's gonna be great. 00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:37.760 Uh I look, good luck with all of the your endeavours. 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.400 I um I think what you're doing is fantastic. 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:44.639 There's some stuff there that the world desperately needs, so uh, so more power to that. 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:49.119 And um yeah, look forward to seeing the next adventures coming our way, Sam. 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.440 I really appreciate you and really respect you, and I'm very grateful for the conversation. 00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:54.079 Thanks.