TRANSCRIPT 🔗
Jo Szewczyk: Hey everyone, Jo here. Definitely not in a makeup chair getting ready to be the crow. Definitely not at all. Sorry for the fish nuts. Today's guest is someone I want to talk to for a while because our trajectories are kind of the same. Ghost righty to righty righty, right? And and I love talking craft with people how to do it for a job and a passion. And honestly, anytime that you can do art for a job and a passion, you kind of know the differences. And today that's what I'm getting into. Let's hit it. Hey everyone, today's What Kraken? with me, Jo Szewczyk I've got a special treat for myself and you guys at home. I've got Alison McBain And Alison I it's a pleasure to talk to you, a pleasure to meet you. I know a little bit about ghostwriting, so I have a lot to talk about right now. How are you today?
Alison McBain: I'm great. Thank you so much for having me on. It's lovely to be here.
Jo Szewczyk: anytime, anytime at all. And we talked a little bit before the show. We've kind of crossed paths, not physically, but work wise. Not maybe like, you know, we we did our works cross paths, meaning we've been in the trenches. And those trenches
Alison McBain: Yes.
Jo Szewczyk: are ghostwriting. Ghostwriting how'd
Alison McBain: Exactly.
Jo Szewczyk: you get into ghostwriting? I mean, how? That's not the easiest thing.
Alison McBain: it it isn't. It actually came about through my editing work. So I've been an editor for years and I've worked with various clients in all genres. and one time I was working with someone and sent them the edits and they said, Yeah, these are these are great edits. I I love these edits, but I don't know how to implement them. Can you do it for me? And I I, I had heard of ghostwriting before, of course, being in the publishing business. And I thought, why not? I'll give it a try. and it worked out great. And after that I started doing it for various publishers, various authors, and it just became another arm of what I do, including editing and writing. So yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: Well that's that's such an amazing journey. Honestly, if someone gave you notes on the edits you made and saying these are fantastic, hey, good job getting a good writer because sometimes I hate you. You ruined my life. I'm like, that's just yeah. Could
Alison McBain: That happens too, you never know.
Jo Szewczyk: you write these in a post? not if you told me you just hate me, no. So you
Alison McBain: Mm-hmm.
Jo Szewczyk: you went from there and then you found out was it a worry that you were going to mess the edits up? when you're like writing it yourself, my gosh, I hope I don't mess this up.
Alison McBain: I don't know if that was ever a worry. because I, when I'm doing the editing itself, I'm very respectful of the author's voice.
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah. Of the author.
Alison McBain: And so that was something that I carried into the project with me, making sure that I was augmenting what they were saying. a lot of it was just things that were left off the page that, you know, after talking with the author and reading their work, I knew that they wanted to have this theme. or you know, this this idea explored in their work, but they hadn't fully fleshed out the idea. So it was basically just carrying on what they had already started. So I mean that's part of the ghostwriting. Sometimes I do it completely from scratch working with the publisher or author, but sometimes I do get a sort of unfinished or half finished manuscript and am asked to finish the rest of it. So yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: It's the voicing. Yeah. No, it that's a great distinction. I I used to take do like it's getting a voice almost like a caricature if you're doing voice acting. You have to get the author's voice to make sure it still sounds like it. And if
Alison McBain: Yeah. Definitely.
Jo Szewczyk: you're doing it from scratch, it becomes like, okay, now I have to invent this this voice for this person, or if they have other books out, you kind of read their books and trying to get the hang for it. Which one is easier for you to do? Like going through the author and editing and go, Okay, I got your voice now. Or I have to create new.
Alison McBain: each one has its own challenges. So if if you have a partial manuscript, obviously it's already somewhat formed and just trying to make it come to completion can can be tough because you already have certain parts that you can't leave out. when you're starting from scratch, like you know, usually when I'm scar starting from scratch is part of a series and for whatever reason the author isn't able to complete that series or do a book in the middle, they have other commitments. various things happen. so yeah, then creating from scratch I think can be a bit intimidating. You do have the previous books in the series that you can refer to,
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: but again, you're creating something out of whole cloth. You're doing the outline, you're doing the characters. so that can be a challenge to hit it just right, especially in the first or second draft.
Jo Szewczyk: Well, and and that's a that's the key, especially if the series exists. It's not like you can invent a new tick for the character. And now Jimmy's got a one arm. I've explained that one tomorrow. And it's one
Alison McBain: Exactly.
Jo Szewczyk: of those things. So you you must do character research going like through the older books of the series and almost do you do it with like a character bible then?
Alison McBain: Yes. I I don't call it that, but yes, I have my own character sketch sheet that I have created from working with other
Jo Szewczyk: Okay.
Alison McBain: authors with the relevant information,
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: you know, dialogue, verbal ticks, you know, th things that they do, things that they like, dislike, etc. Yeah. So I I do create my own character bible for each character, for you know, the whole the scenery, everything. Yeah. So
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah.
Alison McBain:
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I have copious notes every time I start a new project. It's a lot of work behind the scenes, which you might not think of.
Jo Szewczyk: All right. There is. There's a ton.
Alison McBain: Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah. The whole world building and in general, you have to see what are the physics of the world. Like what's the reality of that world? Is it just like ours? Cool. It's much easier. Science fiction? Okay. What color is the sky? What what color is the scan? How many suns? Moon do we have? I don't know. Like how big is a kender? I don't know. Like this big? dragon lance again. So when you're doing all this, you're creating something from scratch. Or you're augmenting your work. Is there anything that you miss? I know when we're editing, I used to edit too as well. And then one of the things writers would do, they'll have it done in their head, but it won't be on paper. it would be like this a story. I'm like, Yeah, that's not the story you wrote, though. You'd miss that part. Do you ever do that yourself? Are you trying to be cognizant with you? Do have an editor's hat on as you write as well? just being cognizant of all the things you might miss as a writer?
Alison McBain: Yes and no. no writer is perfect. This is why every writer, and even if you're an editor yourself, it you you have your own editor.
Jo Szewczyk: need. Yes. Absolutely a thousand percent yes.
Alison McBain: Exactly. So yeah, of course there's stuff I miss. And there's stuff that comes out, you know, in the second draft, in the in the editing stage.
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: so yeah, the nothing nothing I write at least is ever perfect the first time around. It might be close, but definitely not.
Jo Szewczyk: Well Well that's exactly it and and stuff you write. So you were ghostwrit you were editing ghostwriting. At what point you're like, you know what, I wanna just do this for me. I I I want to write.
Alison McBain: I actually started out doing it for me. So yeah, I started out at
Jo Szewczyk: Okay. I wanna s I started out this way and I went that way.
Alison McBain: Exactly. I started out as an author, did editing sort of on the side for friends, got into it as a profession, and then did the ghostwriting. So I might have done a backwards, you know, path. I don't I don't know. How did you get into it? Were you doing ghostwriting first or
Jo Szewczyk: I I think so. shoot. No, I I was doing the authorship first as well. And it just happened to be like, okay, move to Canada, move to Quebec. Like I course I can get a degree. I I can get like a job teaching Quebec. I have a degree in English. Spoiler, for those who don't know the rest of the world, Quebec's French. So a little bit more the job market, not that much. So yeah, I started doing like, okay, what can I do? Ghostwriting. I can I can I can edit in ghostwrite. Skills transfer, right? And and that's just that's what you do. Now, when you were ghostwriting, did you ever get I I anything that you can't say except the
NDA understands, just say just do the we got as well, like you the NDA clause. Did you ever get someone that you're like, gosh, I can't wait. I my God, I can't believe, I can't believe, I can't believe and I can't tell nobody. Do you remember that moment I can't believe this is my book and I can't and everyone's talking about the book around you, but you're like, yeah, yeah, that guy's great. Yeah, that guy's awesome. Good writer, huh? Check out page
Alison McBain: Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: five. Do you like that one? Page five? Yeah.
Alison McBain: Not because I so a lot, I would say about maybe 80% of what I ghost wrote was romance, actually. And yeah, I know. So I can admit that because I'm not telling you. so I I don't know a ton of romance writers or readers, I guess, who who
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: freely admit it, I guess. So a lot of the time the the books that I I was working on were not being discussed, I think, around me. have you ha have you had that?
Jo Szewczyk: It's like that st steamy scene. every once in a blue moon, but yeah, but not romance. I mean, that's like, yeah, you know what? Page five is so hot. Like that scene. Like, I don't I read
Alison McBain: Ha ha
Jo Szewczyk: I I know most of my friends read read romance a lot when they want to cleanse from editing something horrific. Like, all these like horrible, horrible war stories. Like this this romance. You need the decompress romance and a as the genre, it's like one of the best selling genres on this planet, right? It's like yeah.
Alison McBain: It is. There's a there's definitely a lot of money in it. so it's something that and again, this is not widely known, I guess, that yeah, there are a lot of very prolific romance writers and sometimes they have a bit of help.
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah. Well, if you ever talk to a prolific, how many books are you talking about per year? 'Cause I know somebody like,
Alison McBain: For
Jo Szewczyk: I did five books this year, I'm like, You did five books this year? Like book books?
Alison McBain: Yeah, there are there are some writers who who do that. who I'm trying to think of and this is not anyone that I've ghostwritten for. you know, like like
Jo Szewczyk: No, no, just All right.
Alison McBain: Nora Roberts, for example. Like r I think she puts out like four or five books a year. yeah, so.
Jo Szewczyk: The the the workload's insane. How many have you done ghostwritten? How many per year? If you wanna.
Alison McBain: over over two dozen.
Jo Szewczyk: A year? I was like
Alison McBain: no no no. Sorry. I would say probably at most
Jo Szewczyk: I'm back now if I want to.
Alison McBain: per year about 10, maybe.
Jo Szewczyk: Really?
Alison McBain: Yeah, I'm I'm a pretty fast writer, so
Jo Szewczyk: okay, how long did it take you to write your your stories? when you were the the author? How long did that take? How many per year? How many per how long did it take for one book? I'm just trying to gauge.
Alison McBain: That's a complicated question. so I did a couple years ago, when AI first hit the scene and started to creep into the creative world, I did this crazy project called author versus AI. And essentially it was to call attention to AI. It was to call attention to also human achievement. So I wasn't using AI at all, not in the formulating of the stories, not in the writing.
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: and this is back in 2024 and I wrote 34 books in a year. so it got a lot of press, it got a lot of attention, which is great because it opened up the conversation about again what a writer can accomplish, what people can accomplish versus what machines can accomplish. And hopefully my books are, you know, a tiny bit better than what AI can produce. yeah, so that's the most I've ever
Jo Szewczyk: no it It's the old Razell i if you know the cop yeah.
Alison McBain: written in a year, though.
Jo Szewczyk: I'm like, I hope they're children's were they joke books or like like they're two pagers. I'm like, my gosh. If anyone doesn't okay, I'm gonna sound like a huge slacker. It took me 10 years to do one. Ten. Ten. Not even exactly can. They're like, yeah, I did like 34. it's only like September.
Alison McBain: Ha
Jo Szewczyk: I might get another 30 later on, but you know, I'm I'm I stop easy. I'm like, my gosh, I can't even imagine.
Alison McBain: Yeah. Well, they were first drafts. You know, I wasn't editing, I wasn't doing
Jo Szewczyk: But still, yeah, no.
Alison McBain: any of that. They they were on the shorter side too.
Jo Szewczyk: It's still
Alison McBain: so yeah, but it that's probably the most I'll ever write in a year. So
Jo Szewczyk: How did you feel afterwards? You're just like, Well, okay.
Alison McBain: I was so burned out. I I took several months off after that and just was like, I am I don't know if my brain will ever recover. It did. But at
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah.
Alison McBain: the time I was feeling very burnt out.
Jo Szewczyk: And and that goes back to did you ever get a client who's who's ups this maybe just me projecting this point? Did you ever
Alison McBain: Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: get a client who was so upset, I did the hard part, I got the idea for the book. Like, you wanted 125,000 words and your idea was a hard part? Okay. Okay.
Alison McBain: Okay.
Jo Szewczyk: How do you deal with stuff like how do you you might not even have this bringing us? Do you like negative clients? And if so, like how do you deal with like the negativity sometimes?
Alison McBain: definitely. it's it's a part of the business. I also publish a magazine. So I work with every month I work with dozens of clients.
Jo Szewczyk: I'm so sad.
Alison McBain: I won't cut out c call them clients. I work with dozens of authors.
Jo Szewczyk: Authors, right.
Alison McBain: so yeah, not every experience is gonna be a positive one. And not every author is is receptive necessarily to to deep feedback. But I mean that's part of what building the author you know, editor relationship is about.
figuring out what they want and being
Jo Szewczyk: Abs absolutely. Yeah.
Alison McBain: able to deliver on that. and make sure that their book is improved. So yeah, sometimes you get the you know, you get especially new authors, I would say, who are not used to that, yeah, the baby authors. They're they're not used to that relationship or what it means. so
Jo Szewczyk: Yes. The baby authors, yes. Yeah.
Alison McBain: I I try to be as clear as possible ahead of time, especially if I know I'm working with, you know, a new author who's never been published before. and try to set expectations. And that can really, really help down the road because you know, having that sort of empathetic editor who is like, yes, I know this is a hard process. I've been through it myself, you know, can really help get to the next steps of that and make sure that their their book comes out exactly how they want it to come out.
Jo Szewczyk: Well, and that's so important. You're you're not just doing the technical craft of editing, you're also doing the mentoring and nurturing. And especially for new authors,
Alison McBain: Definitely. Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: it's so it's so important. I I came from a background of academic program creative writing at Binghamton University and later on in Lancaster. And having to know how to receive feedback. And knowing it's not personal, you're just trying to make your s you're trying to make the story better. I is is invaluable. What do you have that in your background? Like how did you learn how to talk to the authors this way?
Alison McBain: I don't know if I have it in my background. I guess
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah.
Alison McBain: I just I mean I like to talk to people. I'm also a mom, so I I have kids. So I I'm used to I'm used to people telling me
Jo Szewczyk: I'm I'm the author of my mom a god.
Alison McBain: no. Exactly, exactly.
Jo Szewczyk: I don't want to. So you just so also basically that's a good skill set then. Like that's transferable because you're treating people as yes, this might be a brand new thing for the show. Treating people as people instead of like
Alison McBain: Yes, and
Jo Szewczyk: the object of like the the artwork, you know. That must be working nicely. Okay, cool. So if you're doing all this and you're connecting, you said, and this is something we have so many overlaps. I also was an editor for a magazine. You your slush pile? I do you get unsolicited s
Alison McBain: okay. yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: the slush piles like up to here and you have to go through it and
Alison McBain: Yes, so we do get a fair number of submissions and
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: it it's wonderful. I love discovering new authors. we also run annual contest. We're now in our wanna say fourth year, I might be wrong. memory as you get older. so we're we're in our fourth year of running the contest and last year I was so thrilled because Our winner of the contest, and when we got hundreds of submissions. when I went to tell her, You are the
grand winner of our contest, you know, you you took home the gold. she actually, that was the point where where she said, you know what, this is my first publication. And I was like, that hit me right here because I was like, This is this is why we do it. This is why we're
Jo Szewczyk: Wow.
Alison McBain: involved in publishing and magazines and in My Press also does anthologies once in a while. so it's it's to discover that be brilliant new voice and
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: share it with the world. And and that is like the best feeling ever as an editor. I love that. Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: Isn't it? No, that does that describes of of all the things that can go wrong, I don't remember most of those. I just don't. It's like the people who hassle, they're they don't last anyways. But it's the people who are like, my gosh, this is my first one. And this is like it's those. And the it's the people who are like taking pictures of their book and the whatever the w you know, like just the selfies and the this glowing face. it's it's those moments. When you are all said and done, what do you want the not so much the publishing world, any any type of any type of like legacy you want? What kind of legacy you want? What do you want people to know you for?
Alison McBain: Well, I think a lot of us get into writing, editing, publishing because we were well, no. Yes,
Jo Szewczyk: Right.
Alison McBain: so much my no, no. because we were inspired when we were younger. We read an author and were just like, This is amazing, this is beautiful, this makes me want to be a writer. and I hope, you know, that I can pass that on. That Someone will read one of my books one day or read the magazine that I created or an anthology or something that I've done or, you know, someone that I've worked with as an editor and they're the author and say, wow, this is amazing. I also want to become a writer or become an editor or, you know, publish magazine. I I want to inspire the next generation. And I think if I do, that would be a wonderful legacy to have.
Jo Szewczyk: No, it absolutely. More art in the world, the better. More inspiration the better. And it's an Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
Alison McBain: Exactly. We need it more now than ever.
Jo Szewczyk: no. Tell me about it. I'm like, well. It it is there's no lack of imagination needed anymore. You just go to the news and just write
Alison McBain: Okay.
Jo Szewczyk: almost verbatim what's happening, and it'll be the most fantastical story ten years ago. It's like, are you kidding me? This is made up. no, no, this is this this is just the newspaper right now. When You were growing up. Who inspired you?
Alison McBain: all kinds. How how much time do you have? Exactly.
Jo Szewczyk: yeah, no, it was rock and roll down the list. Rock and roll down the
Alison McBain: Yeah, I I mean I loved authors like Ray Bradbury, Octavia Butler, and Tanneth Lee. I don't know if you've heard of Tanneth Lee. She was a British writer. okay. Yeah, so I I
loved the Yes,
Jo Szewczyk: Yes, I I have. No. no, I don't know tantifly. I don't know tanninly, but I know the work, yes.
Alison McBain: exactly. But I loved very imaginative worlds and taking those flights of fantas fancy, you know? so and and there's like dozens and dozens more that that completely inspired me and just made me keep on this path of saying I can be a writer someday too. how about you? What were some of your favorites? I'm curious though.
Jo Szewczyk: Show is this? I see what you're doing. No, I know. I always start like I always tell the guests before,
Alison McBain: No, I'm allowed to ask questions too.
Jo Szewczyk: like, it's just a conversation. And as soon as it becomes just a conversation, like, wait a minute, I know your trick.
Alison McBain: Ha ha ha.
Jo Szewczyk: No, it the weird thing is, you you're picking these great world builders. All of them. Like they're they're the magic world builders. And some of your list is my list as well, because I grew up in. I grew up in an area where it was a cultural landlock. So we didn't get anything new. So the only thing we could find the library was, any once in a while a book world existed. You go into a store, and the bookstore sold books, not candles, not mugs, not computers, not like beats. They just sold books. It was so weird. They were called a bookstore. I don't know if they exist anymore. That and the one that got me. Not Stephen King was the first one I read. I'm that I'm that kid. I read like the Stan when I was five. Don't let your kid at five years old read the stand. It turns out to be me. Dragonlance, Tracy Hickman and Margaret Reeves. It's the whole world building. Because once you see yourself in the characters, like, my God, that's me. It explains your whole world. And you're like, this is how it makes me feel. I can make other people feel the same.
Alison McBain: Exactly. Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: Is that it? Yeah. So you saw yourself in those in those worlds like I can I can do this, I can make it so other people can too, right?
Alison McBain: Exactly. And also just the fact that they could create these amazing worlds, these fantastic worlds that you could dive deep into. yeah, I wanted to do that too.
Jo Szewczyk: I is there anyone I I I can think of like twelve thousand off the top of my head, where you're like, I want I'm I'm a writer, I'm a professional writer, I get paid for this, and then you read what they wrote and like I'll never be that good. Like I'm man. I can see it's painful 'cause I can see how good they are. I'll never be that level. Do you have anyone?
Alison McBain: there are definitely writers I I'm gonna say that I am very I I very much admire their style a lot. and it's not my style. I can see that very clearly that they they're
Jo Szewczyk: Right now.
Alison McBain: doing something that I I will never do just because it's not something that I'm comfortable in. I don't like to say that there there's a author that I I I would never I could never do
that. Because I want to try it. Like if if if I see something that
Jo Szewczyk: Wanna try exactly, you always want to try it.
Alison McBain: yeah, that I haven't done and I'm I'm intrigued by it, I'm like, wow, this is really cool. Like I wonder if I can create my own version of this. I wonder if I can have my own story do something just as as crazy and twisted as this story. So yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: I wonder if Yeah, absolutely. That's I wonder if is it's a competition to with yourself. And the writer's no idea you're doing it. It's a competition with yourself
Alison McBain: Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: at this point, yeah, what if I can do it? I wonder if so you would read a story and I I've been listening to Keith Richard's autobiography lately, and he would take apart a song when he's learning how to play music. He would just take apart a song on the radio and just take it apart, like how do they do this? How do they do that? Okay, if I do this, we'll just do like this. Is that kind of like the writing you're describing? Like You see this powerful writer like, okay, how do they do the story? How do they craft?
Alison McBain: Yeah, I I like to study writers and I like to reread writers. I know a lot of people don't have time these days, but there are some books that
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah, that's good.
Alison McBain: I go back to and because because I do feel that they are are brilliant and I would like to be able to have that level that that depth in my own writing that they have in theirs. So I definitely do go do go back to the classics and study them and try to figure out I I don't just read in one genre, I read in all genres. I read nonfiction, I read memoir, I read you know, all all the different genres, mystery, even though I don't write mystery that much. So I I like to get inspired because nowadays you can pull something, each genre has its own tropes, it its own you know, repeated sort of ideas. And if you can pull something from a different genre and put it into a completely new genre, it's new. So exactly. So cross genre stuff
Jo Szewczyk: Yes. It it's it's the twist. It's
Alison McBain: is so much fun.
Jo Szewczyk: That's it. No, that's I teach that. I honestly do. how do I change the story? just change it to genre. You just change
Alison McBain: Ha ha ha.
Jo Szewczyk: the story to something brand new. That's how you do it. That's a okay. We talked wow. For a 20 minute show, we went twenty five. Okay. So if you can go back to talk to child you, I mean like preteen, twelve, eleven, ten, what advice would you give?
Alison McBain: I would tell them, okay, the lottery ticket numbers are Exactly.
Jo Szewczyk: That's my joke. That's that was mine. So we had the same thing. I totally crossover. We cross over all of
Alison McBain: but but no seriously, I don't I don't know if I would want to go back because part of part of the joy of of growing up and finding your path is finding that path. So I took a lot of detours before I became a writer, before I became an editor. And that's just life. I I had to have that lived experience before I had a voice, before I knew what I wanted to say. so yeah, were there terrible things that happened, you know, in the past? Are there things that like, you know, ripped me apart? Of course. Yeah. We all have those those terrible lows in our lives. And at the time we want to say, I I wish this had never happened. But at the same time it makes you who you are. So, you take the good,
Jo Szewczyk: It strikes you.
Alison McBain: you take the bad, and you become who you are. so I know, I know, you can't. It's a copyright issue.
Jo Szewczyk: after you're doing the facts of life song, we can't do the rest of the lyrics legally. We'll leave it there. Yeah, leave it there, good and bad. No, I I I get that. It's it's this conversation that makes us. it's it's it's how we build it's how we build character.
Alison McBain: Exactly. And we're characters
Jo Szewczyk: Yeah.
Alison McBain: of our own stories.
Jo Szewczyk: Or someone who was really mean yesterday, one of those numbers.
Alison McBain: Ha ha ha
Jo Szewczyk: Where can we find you on the interwebs? Where can we find you on the social medias? Where can we find your books?
Alison McBain: Well, my books are everywhere. So anywhere you order books, you can order my books. but everything is concentrated on my website, which is allisonmcbain.com. And I always like to say for anyone who's listening and not looking at the screen, it's Allison with one L. but you can find all my socials on my website.
Jo Szewczyk: It's amazing. And I have to s this I knew this is gonna be a treat. I knew I was gonna have fun. I could not wait. And I'm so glad you're the same person in my mind I thought you would be. Like I like I
Alison McBain: Ha ha ha.
Jo Szewczyk: in my mind I th I I was like maybe sometimes I was building up like my building her up that much. And this conversation was amazing. So thank you very much for everything today.
Alison McBain: that's so sweet. I had such a great time talking to you. Thank you so much for having me on.
Jo Szewczyk: Well thank you. And on behalf of myself and Allison, we bid you good day.
Alison McBain: Yeah.
Jo Szewczyk: Bye everyone. Man versus machine or woman versus machine or whatever. That is an old Razell man and Kenny Mohammed, right? The human know for sure. If you grew up listening to the music I grew up with, y y you're probably me. But AI, AI, AI, AI. And I'll tell you what, I am not the most prolific writer in the world. I used to be for half a second and that after that no. To see Allison do what she did, I'm like, my gosh, that's amazing. That's amazing. I don't think I can do that. I'm gonna try one day. Maybe. Maybe after I get my makeup done. But thank you for watching. Like and subscribe now, and I'll see you later at Dallas, Texas, today, right now, as it happens, as we speak, as the crows. See you at my table. Bye.