Full Transcript for 184: From Rock Bottom to Marketing Mastery with Ben Hartley

with getting my name out there. 00:04:21.939 --> 00:04:27.512 I became obsessed with marketing and trial and error and testing and learning, and testing, learning, and I've learned a lot of things that didn't work. 00:04:27.973 --> 00:04:33.495 I learned a few things that did but really just in order for us to lead. 00:04:33.495 --> 00:04:35.920 I think this is the thing that I would want people to hear. 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:39.848 The aim isn't necessarily more money. 00:04:39.848 --> 00:04:54.968 The aim is the ability to say no, and for us, it was the ability to say no to our location, to an environment that was unhealthy for us, to the feelings that we had in this town, and we wanted to be able to say no to that. 00:04:54.968 --> 00:05:05.257 It was freedom, and so we were able to build the photography business to the point that I was making more than where I was at and I loved that job. 00:05:05.257 --> 00:05:05.757 It was great. 00:05:05.757 --> 00:05:10.771 But, um, and then we, we, we had it out, we left and then it just kept rolling from there. 00:05:11.701 --> 00:05:13.528 And that's when you ended up where you are now. 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:15.802 No, this was no. 00:05:15.802 --> 00:05:17.024 That took us to Columbus. 00:05:17.024 --> 00:05:27.223 Uh, we were at Columbus for, uh, I don't, I don't know, I don't know how many years we were there, and and that's where we continued to build the studio. 00:05:27.223 --> 00:05:31.701 And then, from there, you know, we've kept bringing on more photographers. 00:05:31.701 --> 00:05:34.428 So at one point we had like five photographers on our team. 00:05:34.428 --> 00:05:35.471 That's cool. 00:05:35.571 --> 00:05:36.922 And so yeah it was. 00:05:36.942 --> 00:05:39.245 Yeah, you know it's, it is cool. 00:05:39.245 --> 00:05:47.062 It's not recommended but no, eventually we found our way here to Florida and so, but that's a whole other journey. 00:05:47.062 --> 00:05:49.072 But the obsession of marketing came out of that need. 00:05:49.754 --> 00:06:24.370 Yeah, no, and I think it's kind of good too that you touched on how many times you've moved, because even just moving a few and where you moved like you didn't move entire states I think even just moving a couple of hours sometimes can impact your market, and people need to move for all kinds of reasons, and so I think that's a very relatable thing that people go through in the photography industry and, you're right, it really requires a higher level of marketing to get situated and, you know, get business in that area. 00:06:24.370 --> 00:06:34.661 So, um, all right, what excites you the most about marketing, especially right now, in 2025, and maybe how have things changed since? 00:06:34.781 --> 00:06:35.543 you started. 00:06:36.124 --> 00:06:47.401 Yeah, I'm so excited for all this AI stuff, and I'm so excited for it not because of what it's doing directly, not because of what it's doing directly, but because of what it's doing indirectly. 00:06:47.401 --> 00:06:52.314 Like content is being like mass produced at scale. 00:06:52.314 --> 00:06:55.302 Uh, everything's getting automated. 00:06:55.302 --> 00:06:57.932 I can't tell if I'm talking to a robot or a person anymore. 00:06:57.932 --> 00:07:00.019 Its quality is just so insane. 00:07:00.019 --> 00:07:04.004 And what I what terrifies me about that is the thing that I love about it. 00:07:04.043 --> 00:07:31.642 The thing I love about it is this is that the opportunity for like real personal connection, the kind that you can't fake, is being the the the value of it has, is going through the roof was already I mean, it was already incredibly valuable to take personal time to actually like connect with someone, to have a phone call, to make a video, to have like that direct one-to-one communication. 00:07:31.642 --> 00:07:32.646 That was already valuable. 00:07:32.646 --> 00:07:36.923 Now it's like TEDx, yeah, and I love that inverse relationship. 00:07:36.923 --> 00:07:40.319 I think a lot of people are scared of all of the mass content creation. 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:41.262 How are we going to keep up with this? 00:07:41.262 --> 00:07:41.904 And what does this mean? 00:07:41.904 --> 00:07:49.223 And all the automation, all this stuff and meanwhile I'm just like man. 00:07:49.223 --> 00:07:52.572 This makes those elevator conversations just that much more meaningful, and so I, I that that excites me. 00:07:53.180 --> 00:07:55.485 Yeah, by the way, we're both real people. 00:07:55.485 --> 00:07:58.593 Ben's a real person, I'm a real person. 00:07:59.341 --> 00:08:02.730 You laugh, but it sounds like something a robot would say. 00:08:07.148 --> 00:08:07.930 That is insane, you're right. 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:10.394 No, I actually for the first time. 00:08:10.394 --> 00:08:21.086 I mean, I have a very new YouTube channel, like I'm just dabbling in YouTube, and I have someone that you know became a member of our. 00:08:21.086 --> 00:08:24.802 It's called the wedding photography society, but it's like a group, anyway. 00:08:24.802 --> 00:08:28.550 He joined and then I emailed him like personally. 00:08:28.550 --> 00:08:31.144 I was just like, oh, hey, you know, just want to check in, blah, blah, blah. 00:08:31.144 --> 00:08:32.148 Like I read your questionnaire. 00:08:32.148 --> 00:08:38.350 And he was like, oh, now that I know I'm talking to a real person, and I was like that's fascinating. 00:08:38.350 --> 00:08:42.907 And then, for the first time this month, ben, I got an inquiry. 00:08:42.907 --> 00:08:47.662 Whenever I asked where they heard about me, she said chat, gpt. 00:08:47.662 --> 00:08:49.846 And I'm like this is new. 00:08:49.846 --> 00:08:56.323 Like even just in this month, those two things happening like in sync with one another. 00:08:56.323 --> 00:08:58.808 I'm like whoa, this is crazy. 00:08:59.090 --> 00:09:01.134 So my husband's an architect. 00:09:01.134 --> 00:09:06.091 We were actually just

talking before I hopped on the call with you about AI. 00:09:06.091 --> 00:09:10.870 I don't even know why it came up, but oh, I know why. 00:09:10.870 --> 00:09:22.461 I have a friend I'm kind of digressing, but I have a friend who we both studied architecture and she sent me like a picture of her house that she's repainting and I could tell it was an AI generated photo, and I was like you think that? 00:09:22.461 --> 00:09:25.605 Like, do you think that architecture is in trouble? 00:09:25.605 --> 00:09:36.815 Cause there are whole industries that, as we know, have been like omitted, and you know, even with photography, I wonder, like, what does this mean? 00:09:36.815 --> 00:09:37.297 You know? 00:09:37.297 --> 00:09:51.231 So I appreciate that you touched on AI, but also the exciting things, like, when it comes to marketing, how quickly you can come up with an idea for what to do or how to market yourself, right, I mean, don't you? 00:09:51.231 --> 00:09:58.461 That's what you're I'm hearing you say is it's like let's use it as a tool and, even more so, emphasize our personal brand. 00:09:59.202 --> 00:10:11.532 Yeah, yeah, I'm just excited that it's mere existence makes, uh well it, while it devalues content, it increases the value of personal connection and I, I just get excited about that. 00:10:11.532 --> 00:10:16.371 I hope it forces more people to get out from behind their screens and uh, start showing up. 00:10:17.019 --> 00:10:18.081 Yeah, absolutely. 00:10:18.081 --> 00:10:24.712 Um, so photographers can dread marketing as a whole. 00:10:24.712 --> 00:10:27.162 I actually fall in that category, believe it or not. 00:10:27.162 --> 00:10:29.966 Truly, it's something I struggle with. 00:10:29.966 --> 00:10:37.087 Has this always come naturally to you, or is it something that you've worked at? 00:10:37.087 --> 00:10:43.687 And what would you say to someone who struggles with marketing like me? 00:10:43.687 --> 00:10:45.551 I'm kind of like a head down person. 00:10:45.551 --> 00:10:46.692 What would you tell me? 00:10:47.581 --> 00:10:49.245 I mean, I don't think I've always excelled at it. 00:10:49.245 --> 00:10:57.070 I think I've always been like, uh, someone who I, I love people, like I've always been someone who just actually loves people. 00:10:57.070 --> 00:10:58.982 You know, I meet a lot of people who like they don't like people. 00:10:58.982 --> 00:10:59.904 No bad if that's. 00:10:59.904 --> 00:11:01.970 You lose listening. 00:11:01.970 --> 00:11:04.625 My wife does not like people, it's all good. 00:11:04.625 --> 00:11:08.364 The fact that I won her over is just an actual godsend. 00:11:09.226 --> 00:11:10.269 Well, at least she liked you. 00:11:10.269 --> 00:11:11.392 Thank God for that. 00:11:13.041 --> 00:11:21.003 It was a slow wear down is what it was, but for a Labrador like me, it was like that was, that was a, that was great. 00:11:21.003 --> 00:11:23.548 So, uh, no, um. 00:11:23.548 --> 00:11:35.083 So I think I've always loved people, and, and, and, so, um, and I love problem solving, and so, um, you put those two things together and, and, um, it's worked really well. 00:11:35.083 --> 00:11:36.470 Those kinds of strengths, you know. 00:11:36.490 --> 00:11:53.441 I think that I was given those strengths and then I've continued to practice and hone at it, you know, and so for the person who's struggling with it, there's a great Simon Sinek quote that I love, and it says marketing is not the art of finding customers or attracting customers. 00:11:53.441 --> 00:11:56.807 It is the science of creating value for them. 00:11:56.807 --> 00:12:10.686 It's not just about, like, creating content, it's about producing value for the other person, and so becoming obsessed with the problem that the person has that's what marketing is is just becoming more obsessed with the problem than you are the solution. 00:12:10.686 --> 00:12:23.548 I think a lot of photographers are obsessed with the solution being I make beautiful images, but in order to market well, you have to become obsessed with the client's problem, and I love that. 00:12:23.548 --> 00:12:35.466 I love getting obsessed with what the problem is, and, and there's so much gold when you begin to do that, um, and and actually start to produce uh, produce value for people. 00:12:36.047 --> 00:12:38.553 Yeah, that's a really great tip. 00:12:38.553 --> 00:12:44.586 Um, I think if somebody listened to just that nugget, that's gold right there. 00:12:44.586 --> 00:12:51.528 This idea of getting in the mind of the person you're serving and that they can see it differently. 00:12:51.528 --> 00:12:58.751 Like we're consumed with the art and how you know we're creating these images, but you're like but what is their need? 00:12:58.751 --> 00:13:00.322 Like, what do they want? 00:13:00.322 --> 00:13:01.464 I love that so much. 00:13:01.464 --> 00:13:10.048 If someone is getting started and they're kind of or restarting, maybe they're feeling stuck, you know, cause that happens too. 00:13:10.128 --> 00:13:28.875 I feel like around year seven I don't know what it is about year seven, but like year seven is a doozy Year seven is not lucky, like year seven is unlucky, um, but I feel like in that year, and even just when you're starting out too, it's like you, you want to get started or restart. 00:13:28.875 --> 00:13:32.009 So it's like what would you suggest for somebody? 00:13:32.009 --> 00:13:35.870 And maybe the advice is different for each of them, but it's not. 00:13:36.451 --> 00:13:39.489 Yeah, you're seven, for business is like you're 10 in marriage. 00:13:39.489 --> 00:13:43.346 I don't know if anybody else is going to get that, but you're 10. 00:13:43.346 --> 00:13:44.702 You either make it or you're not. 00:13:44.884 --> 00:13:47.289 It's like this is our our 10 year vow renewal. 00:13:47.289 --> 00:13:48.393 Ben, should we be worried? 00:13:49.384 --> 00:13:52.019 Hey, listen, this is the deciding year for you.

00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:54.801 I don't know if you knew that you're 10, you either make it or you're not. 00:13:54.821 --> 00:14:25.238 I don't know if we got too real there for you, but so what I would say is is and this actually not only this is true for you if you're just starting off, but if you've been in business for a long time, this may be even more true is you have to be willing to slow down in order to go fast, and I think this is really challenging because there are so many things that feel urgent that we constantly are running us. 00:14:25.238 --> 00:14:39.110 My inbox is constantly running me, social media is constantly running me and it's urgent and urgent and urgent and slowing down in order to go fast, which is just to like to identify and to re-identify, like what am I even doing? 00:14:39.110 --> 00:14:39.751 What do I? 00:14:39.751 --> 00:14:40.774 What am I building here? 00:14:40.774 --> 00:14:42.419 Is this going to serve me? 00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:52.761 I've seen far too many photographers, myself included, build something that does not serve them, just because they're just building and building and building and building and building, and the thing that they built ends up being a wall around themselves. 00:14:53.123 --> 00:14:56.134 And they're like shit, this is not what I wanted. 00:14:56.134 --> 00:15:04.109 And sometimes we just slow down and consider, like what is this that I'm building, and who am I building this for, and what do those people really need? 00:15:04.109 --> 00:15:12.246 And if you've been in business for a while, what I've discovered at least if you're like me is there is a drift that can occur, and this drift occurs for a couple of reasons. 00:15:12.246 --> 00:15:16.491 Number one is there's an internal drift of complacency that I've seen play out for my own self. 00:15:16.491 --> 00:15:21.945 I've seen this play out for a number of other photographers too, who are in that you know five to 10 year range. 00:15:21.945 --> 00:15:26.303 You know five to 10 year range. 00:15:26.344 --> 00:15:32.283 What I mean is you, you figured out something that worked and it worked well, and you built a business and, and, and you start to just like forget just how much work it took. 00:15:32.283 --> 00:15:38.724 And there's a degree of complacency that can start to like kick in or even like a, like a, I'm not going to go. 00:15:38.724 --> 00:15:40.947 Like it reminds me of an old dog it doesn't want to chase the ball anymore. 00:15:40.947 --> 00:15:44.471 Like I don't want to go over there to that, I don't mind keep picking up the ball anymore. 00:15:44.471 --> 00:15:46.153 And you think you're going to be okay. 00:15:46.153 --> 00:15:49.966 And then you realize well, shit, I, this is I, I. 00:15:49.966 --> 00:15:58.552 You may look at your, your calendar and realize like things are slowing down, like um, and, and I think that can happen from a drift internally of that drive. 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:00.842 And then, of

course, I think there's a drift of the client. 00:16:00.842 --> 00:16:09.635 I think who we were serving when we first started, like they've drifted down river, you know, and we're like talking to someone across, but directly across, where from us. 00:16:09.635 --> 00:16:10.422 They're not there anymore. 00:16:10.422 --> 00:16:23.265 Either they're down the river or I'm down there, but like we're not talking the same, like I'm just yelling at a tree now, and, and so it's like getting slowing down and re re looking at like who? 00:16:23.265 --> 00:16:24.369 Who am I serving? 00:16:24.369 --> 00:16:25.490 Where are they at now? 00:16:25.490 --> 00:16:26.761 Is this the same client? 00:16:26.761 --> 00:16:28.004 How have I changed? 00:16:28.004 --> 00:16:29.206 How have they changed? 00:16:29.206 --> 00:16:30.470 How has the market changed? 00:16:30.470 --> 00:16:33.462 And um, and so I would say that it's. 00:16:33.884 --> 00:16:35.808 It's slowing down in order to go fast. 00:16:35.808 --> 00:16:39.764 And in order to do that, by the way, you've got to schedule it. 00:16:39.764 --> 00:16:44.653 You will never wake up one day and be like today's the day, today's the day. 00:16:44.653 --> 00:16:45.433 I'm going to look at all this. 00:16:45.433 --> 00:16:57.107 And again, you know it's not going to happen, because instead you're going to open your inbox and there's going to be somebody there with something to say that's going to run your whole day, and so you've got to schedule off the time. 00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:02.666 And my recommendation is every year you should schedule a time to slow down in order to go fast. 00:17:02.666 --> 00:17:37.023 That would schedule like a long weekend Could be a staycation, Could be like a go get an Airbnb in town and like that is your, just like it's a, like that's your time to like really look at what worked over the last year, what did not work over the last year and, for the things that didn't work, what's wanted and needed from you, from your business, from your life, from your relationships, the requests that need to get made, and um, and to look at those things of of the drift that I was sharing, and so I think that's what we need to do. 00:17:37.724 --> 00:17:38.224 I love that. 00:17:38.224 --> 00:17:39.547 That's really good advice. 00:17:39.547 --> 00:17:40.689 It is easy to do that. 00:17:40.689 --> 00:17:45.276 What you described, I mean you know we all get kind of caught up I love. 00:17:45.276 --> 00:17:56.101 I love that you talked about scheduling and slowing down and being really intentional and looking at and the thing that worked, like you said, seven years ago, that's not going to work today. 00:17:56.101 --> 00:17:57.724 It's different clients, different year. 00:17:57.724 --> 00:18:00.151 I mean even just last year to this year. 00:18:00.151 --> 00:18:02.445 I feel like my clients are doing different things. 00:18:02.445 --> 00:18:09.608 I feel like the way that they're even like sharing or not sharing images and how they're showing that, like it is interesting. 00:18:09.608 --> 00:18:11.426 It is very interesting. 00:18:11.426 --> 00:18:13.929 So, um, love that advice. 00:18:13.929 --> 00:18:32.452 Now, as far as let me ask this, like is there a mistake that you've seen and I hate to say like a mistake, because I mean, nothing really is bad, but are there some mistakes that you're seeing photographers making? 00:18:32.452 --> 00:18:39.702 Um, or just that you've observed in terms of the way that we're presenting ourselves, or like marketing in the industry? 00:18:40.945 --> 00:18:42.548 I just think it's not happening enough. 00:18:42.548 --> 00:18:46.748 I just don't think people are talking about the things that they need to be talking about. 00:18:46.748 --> 00:19:00.669 I think that when we have something to say or to offer, we say at one time in an Instagram story with a shitty post, with no call to action, and then we're like this didn't work. 00:19:00.669 --> 00:19:05.488 Yeah, I mean candidly, I think it's. 00:19:05.488 --> 00:19:05.749 It's that. 00:19:05.808 --> 00:19:13.180 I think I think that too many photographers think that they're annoying people because we're people pleasers and god forbid we annoy someone. 00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:15.626 Listen, you, you're gonna annoy people. 00:19:15.626 --> 00:19:22.546 It's like yeah, I'm annoying like a third of your audience right now by even saying like and I? 00:19:22.546 --> 00:19:26.481 That was really hard for me to accept because I am such a people pleaser. 00:19:26.481 --> 00:19:27.944 I was like god, please do you like me? 00:19:27.944 --> 00:19:28.326 Do you like? 00:19:28.326 --> 00:19:29.087 Please like me. 00:19:29.087 --> 00:19:53.310 When, like, I need everybody to like me and when I realized how absolutely insane that was like, that level of expectation that I put on myself, um, like, it was so honestly arrogant that I would actually think that I had the ability to to stand for anything that that would make everybody like me. 00:19:54.173 --> 00:20:26.602 So it became far more accepting to me to be like no, it really makes sense that, like, there's a lot of people who, just, they don't like my voice, they don't like your voice but who knows what it is right Like, or the things that come out of it, or my face, or I don't know your voice, but who knows what it is right like, or the things that come out of it, or my face, or I don't know, but like that actually makes a lot more sense to me, like, yeah, it always gets me as I remember I, I went and I was, um, I got three kids and, uh, we were watching the trailer to the lion king, arguably one of disney's best movies, okay, no, I'm not saying it's the best, but it's like no, it's the best. 00:20:26.823 --> 00:20:35.769 I love the lion king and I'm looking at the trailer on youtube for the lion king and it has like like 40 000 like thumbs downs. 00:20:35.769 --> 00:20:38.074 No, this isn't the remake, this is like

the og. 00:20:38.074 --> 00:20:42.290 It was like 1997 or so, I don't even know what year it was who doesn't like the lion king? 00:20:42.330 --> 00:20:45.707 this is exactly what I was thinking and I was like you know what if like was? 00:20:45.707 --> 00:20:46.730 Who doesn't like the Lion King? 00:20:46.730 --> 00:20:49.596 This is exactly what I was thinking and I was like you know what, if like? 00:20:49.596 --> 00:20:56.201 If that many people can thumbs down the Lion King, I think that that makes a lot of sense, that a lot of people would thumbs down, you know what You're right. 00:20:56.382 --> 00:20:57.385 You're right about that. 00:20:57.385 --> 00:21:00.979 Do you feel like you just don't care anymore, though? 00:21:00.979 --> 00:21:04.645 Or I mean, have you been able to get over that completely, that that fear of like? 00:21:04.645 --> 00:21:10.303 What if someone doesn't like me, what if they don't like my voice, which, again, I think you should just keep podcasting? 00:21:10.303 --> 00:21:16.762 Your voice is like the radio voice of the century, um, but do you feel like you? 00:21:16.762 --> 00:21:19.348 You just kind of don't worry anymore at all. 00:21:19.809 --> 00:21:21.012 No cause, that's not true either, but. 00:21:21.012 --> 00:21:24.816 But what I find is, when I talk about it, um it helps me. 00:21:24.816 --> 00:21:27.637 It's kind of like when I said like I'm feeling nervous at the beginning of this. 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.885 It's like I'm not trying to like deny the feeling. 00:21:29.885 --> 00:21:42.127 I'm kind of, I'm just trying to acknowledge it and to discuss it and to talk about it out loud so I can just like I can have more control over it than it has over me, cause for the longest time, my desire to please people had more control over me. 00:21:42.127 --> 00:21:51.462 It brought me into an anxiety, it changed the decisions I was making, it impacted my own relationships and so just by saying it, it's not like it goes away. 00:21:52.365 --> 00:21:54.810 It doesn't just disappear, it's just now. 00:21:54.810 --> 00:21:56.923 I have more control over it than it has over me. 00:21:56.923 --> 00:22:00.471 I can just it's kind of like it's like a flashlight. 00:22:00.471 --> 00:22:02.463 It's like hard for things to grow when they're in the light. 00:22:02.463 --> 00:22:07.694 So if I can just say it, if I can just talk about it, it's like, hey, it's actually it. 00:22:07.694 --> 00:22:12.685 It it takes down its intensity, it takes down the impact that it has on me. 00:22:12.766 --> 00:22:14.288 So no it doesn't disappear. 00:22:14.288 --> 00:22:15.330 Yeah. 00:22:15.692 --> 00:22:19.141 I just have come to, I think maybe accepted a little bit more as well. 00:22:19.842 --> 00:22:21.362 Yeah, no, that is a hard thing. 00:22:21.362 --> 00:22:23.623 Like I struggle a lot with being controversial. 00:22:23.623 --> 00:22:34.249 You know, like I feel like I'll tell my husband something about I don't know something that could be perceived as controversial, you know. 00:22:34.249 --> 00:22:55.192 But then it's like to say that publicly feel so scary because and it doesn't even have to be something political Like it could be something kind of specific to the industry but that maybe I feel like is not going to be the same perspective everyone has and it's like I might say that one-on-one, but I have a hard time saying that publicly. 00:22:55.192 --> 00:23:01.941 But I sometimes think doing that could help really find your people. 00:23:01.941 --> 00:23:14.009 You know, like I really love people who are sharing their perspective and it's quite entertaining also to be an observer. 00:23:14.351 --> 00:23:16.115 But, I think so. 00:23:16.115 --> 00:23:17.317 Jordan Peterson talks about this. 00:23:17.317 --> 00:23:25.796 It's like saying anything is is dangerous, like just to speak, is it's dangerous, right, because it's now you've opened yourself up to anything. 00:23:25.796 --> 00:23:30.317 So I don't think it's just being willing to say something controversial and he says this. 00:23:30.317 --> 00:23:39.582 It's also the willingness to like, have a dialogue and maybe you say something controversial and then you learn, you know what I mean. 00:23:39.582 --> 00:23:40.851 Like you learn from saying it. 00:23:40.851 --> 00:23:45.798 Like maybe somebody says like they give a rebuttal to the controversy or whatever. 00:23:45.817 --> 00:23:47.700 And then you're like oh yeah, that's a really good point. 00:23:47.700 --> 00:24:04.844 Like it's it's not just being willing to say, but it's also being willing to listen, you know, like that's the hill they got to die on, and and I think it's more of a, it's a and it's probably how people peg you, right they? 00:24:04.844 --> 00:24:07.567 They tell you that that's the hill that you're going to die in. 00:24:07.586 --> 00:24:08.392 I was like no, no, no. 00:24:08.412 --> 00:24:09.717 I'm just, I'm saying something. 00:24:09.717 --> 00:24:11.476 I get that it's dangerous and I'm willing to. 00:24:11.476 --> 00:24:13.313 I want to talk, I want to work this out. 00:24:13.313 --> 00:24:14.979 I want to see, like, how could I improve? 00:24:26.329 --> 00:24:27.753 How can I get better, a more nuanced perspective around this? 00:24:27.753 --> 00:24:30.902 But for right now, with my limited knowledge, I'm going to say this and then I'm going to hear what else is going on. 00:24:30.902 --> 00:24:31.363 Yeah, no, no, no. 00:24:31.363 --> 00:24:48.266 I think that's a great point and, to be honest, like I think a lot of, there's a lot of fear in general around putting yourself out there, creating a personal brand, you know, showing up with consistency online, and so I think this is good to kind of touch on, because it could be something that other people can, you know, sort of connect with. 00:24:48.266 --> 00:24:54.286 Um, I know you're big on one last one, last thought on this Like, like if. 00:24:54.446 --> 00:24:55.990 If the

concern is am I going to annoy people? 00:24:55.990 --> 00:24:56.471 You will. 00:24:56.471 --> 00:24:58.134 If the concern is is this cringe? 00:24:58.134 --> 00:25:03.943 It is, it's like there's and that's like whoever it annoys? 00:25:03.943 --> 00:25:06.834 Wasn't your client ever anyhow? 00:25:06.834 --> 00:25:17.613 And so I'm so okay Annoying a bunch of people that were already never going to engage with me in a meaningful way, but then there's going to be a whole other set of the audience that's going to be like that was. 00:25:17.613 --> 00:25:19.777 That was really dumb and I loved it. 00:25:19.957 --> 00:25:24.545 Like that was just that was perfect oh yeah, Can we just for a minute your ads. 00:25:25.450 --> 00:25:28.196 Okay, yeah, that's a really good example Like I have. 00:25:28.196 --> 00:25:41.882 I have a lot of, I mean, I don't know if a lot is the right word, but like weekly, I'll get some hate comment right, cringe, like, just whatever it is, and I'm like, yeah, so it makes sense that you think this is cringy. 00:25:41.882 --> 00:25:48.002 It was totally not for you, but for everyone that says that I have five that are like this was great. 00:25:48.002 --> 00:25:50.076 This actually made me laugh, you know. 00:25:50.178 --> 00:25:52.125 No, definitely walking that line. 00:25:52.125 --> 00:26:01.321 Yeah, like they stand out too, because, oh my gosh, I swipe past like so many ads and things that I see and I'm just like it's vanilla. 00:26:01.321 --> 00:26:36.353 You know, it's vanilla and I think, as a non vanilla person, which I can probably come off as vanilla, but I'm actually not in a lot of ways, and I think when I see things that stand out to me and I'm sure everybody feels this way like we're all complex individuals and so when you see things, something that stands out as oh Ben really put himself out there or so-and-so is doing something different, like we admire it, you know, and I I think that you can only get there, though, by conquering the what ifs or the. 00:26:36.353 --> 00:26:38.400 Is somebody going to give me a hate message or whatever? 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:39.571 Someone said long time ago? 00:26:39.571 --> 00:26:40.374 Like you know, you made it. 00:26:40.374 --> 00:26:43.662 When somebody says something negative or whatever. 00:26:44.805 --> 00:26:46.971 Yeah, I've heard it the other way, or a different version. 00:26:46.971 --> 00:26:47.972 Similar thing, different version. 00:26:47.972 --> 00:26:54.575 Um is unless you've received a hate letter in your inbox, you're not marketing hard enough. 00:26:54.575 --> 00:26:58.271 Like, unless you received a negative comment, you just you're not marketing hard enough. 00:26:58.271 --> 00:26:58.992 That's your indicator. 00:26:59.554 --> 00:27:02.538 Yeah, cause you're, you know your reach is small and you're playing it safe. 00:27:02.538 --> 00:27:08.856 So, um, okay, so you're, you're big on, you know storytelling and even just talking to you, it's. 00:27:08.856 --> 00:27:10.810 It's really interesting to hear you speak. 00:27:10.810 --> 00:27:13.135 I think you just have a way of saying things. 00:27:13.135 --> 00:27:14.238 It's really interesting. 00:27:14.238 --> 00:27:27.583 Um, what is your advice to photographers who want to market themselves through story but don't really know what that means or like where to begin with that type of marketing that you're so good at? 00:27:28.144 --> 00:27:53.490 Yeah, well, I think, um, they don't know where to begin because they haven't taken inventory over the stories in their lives, like even the story that I shared, at the very beginning, around our hometown and wanted to get out like that, that that was a story that I I took note of, like that was a significant thing and I was like if I had never taken note of it it would have just disappeared, like all the infinite other stories that have happened. 00:27:53.490 --> 00:28:03.224 And your stories don't have to be the time that you almost died and you they resuscitated you three times, or or like what. 00:28:03.224 --> 00:28:05.474 Like it doesn't have to be these things. 00:28:05.474 --> 00:28:08.403 Um, I think a lot of times it's this little stories. 00:28:08.403 --> 00:28:09.394 There's a book that I read. 00:28:09.394 --> 00:28:11.060 I can't, for the life of me, remember it. 00:28:11.060 --> 00:28:11.986 It was something story. 00:28:12.611 --> 00:28:13.452 I apologize. 00:28:13.993 --> 00:28:19.351 Can't quite cite it, but I will tell you what I learned from this book and it's a great takeaway. 00:28:19.351 --> 00:28:30.891 It's a very practical takeaway for the listeners is that every day you have stories that took place that day, and some of them are more impactful than others. 00:28:30.891 --> 00:28:35.630 But the reason we started to tap into this is because we're just not keeping record of it. 00:28:35.630 --> 00:28:41.790 And so he has this thing, the author that he calls homework for life, and at the end of his day he just has a spreadsheet. 00:28:41.790 --> 00:28:42.530 And at the end of his day he just has a spreadsheet. 00:28:42.530 --> 00:28:46.922 And at the end of his day, as he's laying in bed before he closes his eyes in a spreadsheet. 00:28:46.922 --> 00:29:00.874 So that way it's not intentionally not a paragraph, he's not writing out the entire story, he just has the date and then like a one to two sentence line about one thing that happened this day that he never wants to forget. 00:29:01.836 --> 00:29:02.498 Interesting. 00:29:02.698 --> 00:29:03.199 It could be. 00:29:03.199 --> 00:29:11.819 You know some of your kids said when they came home from camp my kids are at summer camp, and you know it could be an interaction, it could be who knows? 00:29:11.859 --> 00:29:21.355 It could be anything, it could be a global event that took place this day, but just something that happened that you just never want to forget, and he does this every single day. 00:29:21.355 -->

00:29:32.481 It's homework for life, every single day, and one of the interesting things about this is you start to create a habit of like, also identifying what are like the the impactful, interesting things that happen. 00:29:32.481 --> 00:29:42.550 They start to show up then, when you're, when you're coming up with like what do I even say on my stories today, it's like well, actually I could share this thing that happened last week and I have it. 00:29:42.550 --> 00:29:45.979 It's actually there and a couple other impactful things. 00:29:45.979 --> 00:29:47.803 Is life starts to slow down. 00:29:47.803 --> 00:29:49.453 Does anybody feel like life is just going way too? 00:29:49.513 --> 00:29:50.656 fast. 00:29:50.757 --> 00:29:57.819 Life starts to actually slow down when you start to identify core memories from each day, like it's almost like now. 00:29:57.819 --> 00:30:04.942 There's like a, there's a memory, there's something attached to it and it's almost like a very focused version and yet a very quick version of like a journal. 00:30:04.942 --> 00:30:05.542 It's just like this. 00:30:05.542 --> 00:30:17.696 I don't want to forget this right, and it's really cool to look back, by the way, like to look back on like the last you know month of like, oh, I remember when I had I totally forgot that, yeah, so yeah, and there's also something really beautiful about that, you know. 00:30:18.618 --> 00:30:25.830 Yeah, yeah, it um it definitely brings like it brings value to so many mundane things. 00:30:25.830 --> 00:30:37.570 That that happen, you know, um and again it's not, it's not like these big grand things, it can just be like really small things, so I would I would encourage people to start doing that. 00:30:38.432 --> 00:30:41.900 I think that's a really great for multiple reasons. 00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:50.124 I think that's a really great practice to get into the habit of, because we do forget about the small things that happen. 00:30:50.124 --> 00:30:56.813 But if you're just looking at like one thing again, you are trying to figure out like, well, what do I share on my stories? 00:30:56.813 --> 00:31:06.498 You don't maybe need to share like everything the entire day, but that one thing, there's going to be one thing that you can share from that day. 00:31:06.498 --> 00:31:08.862 I really I think that's really cool. 00:31:08.862 --> 00:31:10.711 This is so random. 00:31:10.711 --> 00:31:12.896 But do you have one of those digital aura frames? 00:31:12.896 --> 00:31:17.532 I do, Okay, Do y'all put like everything on it? 00:31:18.054 --> 00:31:23.144 My wife does, I don't, but yeah, I mean, I'm shocked that, like something will happen. 00:31:23.144 --> 00:31:41.505 By the way, for those of you who don't know the digital warframes, it's a frame that syncs to your phone, where you can send the pictures from your phone to it and then just scroll through the pictures, right, and I will be shocked, like we will be out bowling and then I'll come home and the pictures it reminds me of a same day slideshow. 00:31:41.505 --> 00:31:42.548 You know, the same day slideshow. 00:31:42.548 --> 00:31:47.231 Magic wedding photographers were like how did they, how did they're showing a picture from the ceremony when it just happened? 00:31:47.231 --> 00:32:01.477 That's how I feel when I come home from bowling and there's a picture of me, like with the strike and and uh, yeah, that happens but it's cool because you know, kind of in the same way now this is from a marketing perspective right, like what you're talking about. 00:32:01.497 --> 00:32:21.155 But that's why I said this is just a random aside, but I think the frame like there's an appreciation for those mundane moments Like we we put like FaceTime screenshots, we put like little drawings of the kids, like all of these things that could be forgotten, but the aura kind of helps us remember it. 00:32:21.155 --> 00:32:34.711 So in a way, it's almost like you're creating like an aura frame of your life moments through this homework exercise that you can market with and tell stories with and start to practice doing those things on a regular basis. 00:32:34.711 --> 00:32:36.679 So I think that's that's super fascinating. 00:32:36.679 --> 00:32:43.681 But how do you recommend that people show up consistently online without burning out? 00:32:43.681 --> 00:32:50.703 You mentioned earlier scheduling time to create a plan and think about what you're doing. 00:32:50.703 --> 00:32:56.342 Do you also schedule for the year, for the month? 00:32:56.342 --> 00:33:01.597 I mean, yeah, in terms of actually executing, that's, I think, a hard thing for people. 00:33:02.329 --> 00:33:03.695 Yeah, well, I mean. 00:33:03.695 --> 00:33:11.932 So I was trained in oil painting I think I mentioned that very beginning, I guess, as an artist, and I'll never forget like I would do these oil paintings right Stand in front of a canvas. 00:33:11.932 --> 00:33:14.037 It'd be six feet tall canvas. 00:33:14.037 --> 00:33:52.509 These are things that take hundreds of hours to paint and so, like, time was always of the essence and I would be holding like a dozen brushes in one hand and each brush would have a different, you know, swatch of paint, a different gradient of gray or something on it, right, and I would stand for the canvas and I, and I would have it in this one hand and my hand would be like positioned in this way where I could, like I just knew exactly where each one was, and I just go and I paint, and paint, and paint, and it would be so frustrating if I ever had to put that hand of brushes down, because the act of putting that those brushes down was a reset. 00:33:52.509 --> 00:34:03.236 I mean, it was a reset and it's probably like a almost like a half hour reset of just getting everything back organized, yeah, in my hand, in the right place where my knew where it was, getting back into that flow state. 00:34:03.236 --> 00:34:05.808 I mean, at least a least I

mean, and it was just everything. 00:34:05.808 --> 00:34:10.835 Because people would come in and they'd be like, hey, you know, they come into the painting studio and I felt like I'd have to greet them or whatever. 00:34:10.835 --> 00:34:16.132 And I just remember I'd hold this fistful of brushes and I just refused to put it down, you know. 00:34:16.132 --> 00:34:26.688 And so I would go and greet people, or if I was hungry, I'd just keep the brushes in my hand and just be eating food with these brushes, just to maintain that like I'm in this mode. 00:34:26.708 --> 00:34:29.612 And so I say this because batching is, is everything. 00:34:29.612 --> 00:34:39.942 And so, like you are a creative, and it is just like holding a handful of 20 brushes, when you are in a creative state of generation, you're generating content. 00:34:39.942 --> 00:34:42.030 If you switch out of that to go and comment, to like to even post the content, to put it in a creative state of generation, you're generating content. 00:34:42.030 --> 00:34:47.771 If you switch out of that to go and comment, to like to even post the content, to put it in a folder, it's like setting down those brushes. 00:34:48.532 --> 00:35:00.947 And so I would say, like time block, creation, if you can, a creation day, like even for my, for myself, with my podcast, I just have two days a month. 00:35:00.947 --> 00:35:03.130 They're the first Thursday and Friday of each month. 00:35:03.130 --> 00:35:13.096 I'm recording all my podcasts, I'm keeping all the brushes in one hand and I'm going to batch them because I'm in creation mode, I'm an interview mode, I'm in conversation mode, right and um. 00:35:13.096 --> 00:35:15.362 Same thing for, for creating content on social media. 00:35:15.362 --> 00:35:25.123 Um, I would say, badge it and uh, and literally just the batching, the creation process of recording yeah, I would. 00:35:25.309 --> 00:35:29.501 I would highly encourage that is that the furthest out that you've ever batched? 00:35:29.501 --> 00:35:31.853 Have you ever batched out longer than like a month? 00:35:31.853 --> 00:35:34.898 And is that sort of impossible? 00:35:34.898 --> 00:35:36.922 I mean, does that feel like two? 00:35:36.922 --> 00:35:39.438 Is there such thing as batching too far out in your opinion? 00:35:40.282 --> 00:35:42.773 well, I think now we're getting into repurposing, because once you start batching content like creation in your opinion. 00:35:42.773 --> 00:35:54.599 Well, I think now we're getting into repurposing, because once you start batching content like creation I'm sure some people do it I never have, but I have scheduled content for like a year and that is through the process of re reusing content. 00:35:54.599 --> 00:36:01.233 And side note, photographers nobody saw your shit the first time like this, posted again like, like just post it again. 00:36:01.494 --> 00:36:20.177 Like 3% maybe of your audience saw it the first time, and so to repost a piece of content that you did three months ago not only is fair, it actually could be a good idea, because now a new 3% will see. 00:36:20.177 --> 00:36:29.195 Um, if somebody did see it before, I don't know if you're like me, but like I see stuff that I've seen before and I'm like man, I'm so glad this came back up in my feed. 00:36:29.195 --> 00:36:30.581 That's hilarious. 00:36:30.963 --> 00:36:31.726 I enjoyed that. 00:36:31.766 --> 00:36:33.050 Whatever it is right, as long as it's valuable. 00:36:33.050 --> 00:36:35.213 I'm like I'm really glad I saw it again, right. 00:36:35.233 --> 00:36:38.759 And it's, and it is just as valuable the second time, if not more valuable. 00:36:38.759 --> 00:36:45.297 And, um, and if somebody has already seen it, they just I again three. 00:36:45.297 --> 00:36:49.289 They're not going to care, which is like 99% of people that just don't get. 00:36:49.289 --> 00:36:58.043 It's going to keep scrolling anyhow, where they're going to really care and they're going to unfollow you, and that person should have never been following you in the first place, which I'm telling you. 00:36:58.043 --> 00:37:04.635 That is like 0.1% of people, and that 0.1% should have already been gone place, which I'm telling you, that is like 0.1% of people and that 0.1% should have already been gone. 00:37:04.655 --> 00:37:06.764 Yeah, and they may have a problem, but like, who cares? 00:37:06.764 --> 00:37:10.253 Yeah, so I say I'm all for reposting of content. 00:37:10.253 --> 00:37:15.264 Now I aim to choose stuff that is about like three months or but that's. 00:37:15.264 --> 00:37:21.844 That is a completely what's it called Made up metric that I've determined for myself. 00:37:21.844 --> 00:37:27.041 There's no magic behind that, like well once it's three months old, then you can repurpose it. 00:37:27.041 --> 00:37:32.682 I'm like if anything is 90 days old, no one's going to remember any of it you know, no, no. 00:37:32.909 --> 00:37:34.976 So yeah, I would say repost. 00:37:34.976 --> 00:37:40.173 I think that's totally okay Now maybe not repost everything, but like to sprinkle that in. 00:37:40.173 --> 00:37:42.541 I think is totally appropriate. 00:37:42.969 --> 00:37:52.733 Yeah, or even like a mix maybe of you know, if you have some older content, maybe you mix it in with some new content and kind of, yeah, remix it. 00:37:52.733 --> 00:37:53.193 That's cool. 00:37:53.213 --> 00:37:54.056 Yeah, Repurpose it. 00:37:54.056 --> 00:37:59.918 I mean, some of the things that you could do is even just changing the call to action can make a big difference. 00:37:59.918 --> 00:38:05.416 Um, the caption on his like same piece of content, different caption, same piece of content, different call to action. 00:38:05.416 --> 00:38:08.134 Another thing that I do I do some of my ads, Uh. 00:38:08.134 --> 00:38:12.951 So I'll make a uh, a single, we'll say a body copy of that, like the main core of the ad. 00:38:12.971 --> 00:38:34.715 Right, Say,

it's a 10 second reel or something, so it'd be the same 10 seconds every time, but I'll record a different one to three second intro for it so I'll make like 10 different versions of an intro and then it goes into the thing and um, you like that is probably the one of the number one metrics to the success of any piece of content that I produce. 00:38:34.715 --> 00:38:48.440 Is that first one to three seconds because, I'll see a, I'll see a click-through rate or just an engagement, a watch time changed dramatically, like like the difference between the one that hits and the one that doesn't. 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:52.155 It will be like thousands of views different. 00:38:52.856 --> 00:38:56.143 Um so, that's crazy, do you? 00:38:56.143 --> 00:38:58.668 Uh, how do you I'm? 00:38:58.668 --> 00:39:08.623 I'm thinking about your content specifically and and your attention grabbing nature of it Like, yeah, when do you come up with these ideas, ben? 00:39:09.929 --> 00:39:17.755 Well, some of it, some of it is just me being zany Right and so like there's a, there's a degree of like this will be funny. 00:39:17.755 --> 00:39:27.143 You know what, if I just drop the phone to start and then I pick up the phone like cause I'm thinking of things that would be actual, like it's a pattern interrupt. 00:39:27.143 --> 00:39:29.135 You know what I mean, just like what's going to interrupt? 00:39:29.155 --> 00:39:29.577 people Right. 00:39:29.577 --> 00:39:48.898 So like there's certainly that, and then I mean I'm not reinventing the wheel and I think that's really important for for everybody to to know is like you don't have to like your photography is such a great place to be completely creative and inventive and test and learn, you know. 00:39:48.898 --> 00:40:00.963 Reminds me of there was an advertisement once for a bank and the bank said like um, uh, we bank differently, we bank creatively, or something like that, and I was like that's really a bad. 00:40:00.963 --> 00:40:04.474 I don't want you to be creative and different with my money. 00:40:04.954 --> 00:40:07.721 I need you to be consistent Don't reinvent the same. 00:40:08.141 --> 00:40:09.050 Yeah, I want you to be a. 00:40:09.050 --> 00:40:10.293 Don't reinvent the playbook. 00:40:10.293 --> 00:40:13.963 Here I'm like this was not a, this isn't, this isn't a win. 00:40:13.963 --> 00:40:19.302 I think that because we're creatives, we think we need to be like innovative and creative in everything we do. 00:40:19.302 --> 00:40:33.902 And, guys, there's, there's just stuff that works Like, there's just playbooks, there's like structure and so even um, there's accounts that you can follow that have great uh content, ideas and hooks and opening like hey, try this this week. 00:40:33.902 --> 00:40:34.532 It's a great pattern. 00:40:34.532 --> 00:40:34.893 Interrupt. 00:40:35.456 --> 00:40:45.056 And like, I'm watching that content, I'm getting ideas, and then I'm taking it and just applying it into my own

industry, and so I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel all the time. 00:40:45.056 --> 00:40:47.170 Sometimes I come up with something silly, you know. 00:40:47.170 --> 00:40:48.735 I'd be like well, what'll happen if I wear a wig? 00:40:48.735 --> 00:40:52.523 Maybe that'll work, you know. 00:40:52.523 --> 00:40:52.891 Yeah. 00:40:53.815 --> 00:40:55.219 No, that's, that's really cool. 00:40:55.219 --> 00:41:05.920 I was curious about that and, um, and I think kind of leaning into your personality, like I appreciate that it kind of sheds a little light onto who you are. 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:18.315 You know like you are a little silly and kind of fun, and so it shows that side of you and so there's an authenticity to that marketing that you're doing, that you're taking it and like making it your own. 00:41:18.315 --> 00:41:29.967 It and like making it your own, Would you say that there are platforms that either are like really working or are not working anymore. 00:41:29.967 --> 00:41:41.835 So like, for example, I started my business in like 2009 ish and like remember, they used to have like the blog readers, right, yeah? 00:41:41.855 --> 00:41:42.135 did you used? 00:41:42.175 --> 00:41:46.108 to like subscribe to people's blogs, you know, yeah, like an rs like. 00:41:46.108 --> 00:41:55.217 They don't do that anymore, but right now I know there's another type of like email subscription that people are doing, but is blogging still a thing? 00:41:55.217 --> 00:42:00.800 Are there certain platforms that you feel work well for photographers to market on like? 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:01.945 Should they be on tiktok? 00:42:01.945 --> 00:42:02.969 Should they be on instagram? 00:42:02.969 --> 00:42:04.795 Should they be on threads like the platforms? 00:42:04.795 --> 00:42:05.396 Because they be on Instagram. 00:42:05.396 --> 00:42:08.385 Should they be on threads Like the platforms Cause, let's be honest, we don't have time to do it all. 00:42:08.405 --> 00:42:09.949 Yeah, yeah. 00:42:09.969 --> 00:42:10.630 What do you think about that? 00:42:11.574 --> 00:42:16.150 Yeah, I mean I, this is where I'm like okay, so let's uh, we'll talk about blogs first. 00:42:16.150 --> 00:42:16.851 Yes, a hundred percent. 00:42:16.851 --> 00:42:25.405 Blogs are uh, greatly uh important that that sounded like a good sentence greatly importantly important, but not client blogs. 00:42:25.405 --> 00:42:25.610 I mean. 00:42:25.610 --> 00:42:32.869 Client blogs, I think are great for client experience and stuff and for, like, internally linking to other pages on your website. 00:42:32.869 --> 00:42:41.443 But, like, I think, like long tail, keyword value-based blog posts are really valuable to be doing. 00:42:41.443 --> 00:42:54.695 When I say all of that jargon, creating blog posts that solve the problems that your clients are searching for just before they go to hire you, okay, does that make sense? 00:42:54.695 --> 00:43:15.639 Like creating content, like for a wedding

photographer, creating content around like, uh, if you know your target client is ones that work with wedding planners, they're hiring them before they hire you, and so, if I were to create a list of like my top five favorite wedding planners in my location and made a piece of really valuable content around that. 00:43:15.798 --> 00:43:17.702 I interviewed the planners. 00:43:17.702 --> 00:43:21.099 I brought them in like that can rank really well. 00:43:21.099 --> 00:43:22.364 It could perform very well. 00:43:22.364 --> 00:43:38.235 Not only does it build relationship with those planners, but now you're going to be returning as a uh, you know when people go to search that and um, and it can really help to get your shoe in the door and just begin to be create awareness for, like, really dream clients of yours. 00:43:38.436 --> 00:43:41.003 So, I think I think that's awesome. 00:43:41.003 --> 00:43:46.079 I hate social media and I think everybody hates social media. 00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:56.340 They're just unwilling to admit it because to do so would mean they no longer get to complain about it, and I think we like the ability to complain about something. 00:43:59.030 --> 00:44:01.277 You're going to take away our complaining ability. 00:44:01.277 --> 00:44:03.041 We hop off of social. 00:44:03.931 --> 00:44:24.784 I just think that, like I think we hate feeling like we have to show up places and I think, if we did truly take inventory over our life, that we would see a dramatic net negative on the impact that social media has on your psyche, your mental health, your marriage, your relationships. 00:44:24.784 --> 00:44:34.804 I just think it would, overall, have a net negative and I think most of us we love the payoff too much, we're too addicted to it. 00:44:34.804 --> 00:44:38.257 We'll never like that whole bit right. 00:44:38.257 --> 00:44:39.541 There is not going to fly. 00:44:41.132 --> 00:44:43.094 Yeah, people just turned off. 00:44:43.094 --> 00:44:44.918 They all just turned off the podcast. 00:44:44.918 --> 00:44:46.681 It's just me and you now. 00:44:47.282 --> 00:44:50.371 Well, so, and this is how you know you're next is when you start to come up with Lingdoll. 00:44:50.371 --> 00:44:53.416 That's not me, no, no, not me. 00:44:53.416 --> 00:44:56.641 You know I'm like okay. 00:44:56.641 --> 00:45:04.826 So I say all that because, like I I think TikTok is is is not a good place to be. 00:45:04.826 --> 00:45:06.329 Yeah, I'll just be honest. 00:45:06.329 --> 00:45:12.434 I just don't think that there's a lot of like good that's happening there and so. 00:45:12.434 --> 00:45:14.059 But I think it's great for your business. 00:45:14.059 --> 00:45:26.981 You know, I've just decided that there's no amount of money that I could receive that will allow me to compromise on kind of core values that I have. 00:45:27.449 --> 00:45:28.172 And I appreciate that. 00:45:28.373 --> 00:45:31.851 So I think, I think, listen, if you want to be someplace, that's great for your business. 00:45:31.851 --> 00:45:34.077 You know, tiktok could be one of those places. 00:45:34.077 --> 00:45:35.722 Instagram is still valuable. 00:45:35.722 --> 00:45:39.277 Um, reels are still valuable, it is Um. 00:45:39.277 --> 00:45:44.112 I just uh, I've thrown in the towel on that and I've accepted the consequences. 00:45:44.333 --> 00:45:45.376 Yeah, so you're not on. 00:45:45.376 --> 00:45:47.521 You're not on Instagram at all right now. 00:45:48.490 --> 00:45:51.860 I have a VA who posts on my behalf. 00:45:52.501 --> 00:45:53.969 Okay, that's awesome, ben. 00:45:53.969 --> 00:46:19.916 I appreciate that because I mean although albeit controversial, speaking of controversy, it is true I mean it is like there is research around what you're saying and I mean I just I'm like 70 into this book called the anxious generation and you know it was a big wake-up call, even for me, with kids and my own social media usage. 00:46:19.916 --> 00:46:43.471 I like downloaded my friend talked about on social this app called the Opal app and I downloaded it, paid for it and honestly, it has saved so much wasted time for me because it's not like you can't just ignore it, it like legit, shut you out and it's sad that I have to monitor myself like that. 00:46:43.471 --> 00:46:50.157 But it's highly addictive, we all know that, and so you kind of have to weigh, like how are you using it? 00:46:50.157 --> 00:46:50.818 What are you doing? 00:46:50.818 --> 00:46:51.581 Can you hire a VA? 00:46:51.581 --> 00:46:58.570 Because I'm not sure from a business perspective, at least for my clientele, that they're on TikTok. 00:46:58.570 --> 00:47:06.900 Personally, that's just my market, so I don't really utilize TikTok at all unless it's for education are they, though? 00:47:07.490 --> 00:47:08.795 they're 100 on it, they're just. 00:47:08.795 --> 00:47:22.110 They're probably just on it, though, like for their own, like they're on, they're just scrolling and laughing and enjoying whatever it is that they're enjoying, but maybe they're not buying um, but they're definitely on yeah, I think I mean my grandma I'm not. 00:47:22.110 --> 00:47:26.871 My grandma, my, my mother-in-law is on it Like, like, oh yeah. 00:47:27.653 --> 00:47:28.355 On TikTok. 00:47:29.137 --> 00:47:32.643 Yes, that's wild she's not creating content, but they're. 00:47:32.643 --> 00:47:35.735 They're consuming content. 00:47:35.735 --> 00:47:35.936 Yeah. 00:47:35.976 --> 00:47:42.255 Wow, I mean, I really personally am not on TikTok like personally, so I guess I assume other people aren't on it. 00:47:42.255 --> 00:47:44.460 But you're right, like they probably are, I think. 00:47:44.460 --> 00:47:56.820 Instagram I even used it recently to help me find a photographer to shoot with me, like out of state, and I found it fascinating the ways in which I was kind of searching around Instagram. 00:47:56.820 --> 00:47:59.177 But I think there are ways around it.

00:47:59.177 --> 00:48:02.311 You know, like what you're describing, where you have somebody posting for you. 00:48:02.311 --> 00:48:07.500 I also have somebody that helps me with my social and it just sort of limits and keeps me intentional. 00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:09.864 Yeah, so I like that. 00:48:09.864 --> 00:48:18.650 Um, what would you say to the photographer that feels oh, actually wait, one more thing about platforms. 00:48:18.650 --> 00:48:20.215 I don't want to move on just quite yet. 00:48:20.215 --> 00:48:21.557 Google reviews. 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:22.500 Yeah. 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:37.001 This was like a very specific and also like kind of personal question, because I actually had a ton of like Google reviews, like I don't know over a hundred five star, and for some reason, google like deleted my entire. 00:48:37.864 --> 00:48:39.248 Google yeah. 00:48:39.768 --> 00:48:40.952 And I cannot get it back then. 00:48:40.952 --> 00:48:43.717 So I'm like is it worth fighting this fight? 00:48:43.717 --> 00:48:46.083 And also for the listener? 00:48:46.083 --> 00:48:49.257 It's like you invest and I can't even see those testimonials. 00:48:49.257 --> 00:48:53.072 I don't even know what those clients said anymore, I don't have access to them. 00:48:53.072 --> 00:49:00.315 So I'm like rethinking this testimonial thing moving forward and I'd be curious to know, as a marketing expert, what do you think? 00:49:00.998 --> 00:49:06.231 Yeah, did you change locations or did you switch from a service base or a local business to a service base? 00:49:07.594 --> 00:49:09.516 potentially like an address base. 00:49:09.617 --> 00:49:18.010 Yeah, I think it was an address issue yep, google is scary because of the power that they have and also like everything's just ran by robots over there now. 00:49:18.010 --> 00:49:25.317 So, like I actually lost all mine as well because I moved and when I moved, they suspended my account for suspicious activity. 00:49:25.317 --> 00:49:26.146 And when I said no, I literally just moved and when I moved, they suspended my account for suspicious activity. 00:49:26.367 --> 00:49:30.121 And when I said no, I literally just moved and I'm updating my address. 00:49:30.121 --> 00:49:34.518 Locked me out of everything and I can't get any of it, so okay. 00:49:34.637 --> 00:49:35.039 I digress. 00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:36.827 Okay, so we are in the same camp. 00:49:36.887 --> 00:49:43.202 Like you, never got yours back yeah, and they're very important, and they're very important they're very important and they're very important. 00:49:43.543 --> 00:49:45.467 They're very important and I can't even read them anymore. 00:49:46.650 --> 00:49:51.402 Extremely important Now maybe not, maybe absolutely less important for you. 00:49:51.402 --> 00:49:56.990 Who's already well-established, who already has a ton of authority, who already has now you should still create a new. 00:49:57.431 --> 00:50:02.590 You know, uh, google my business

you know account, I would create a new one, then you would. 00:50:03.092 --> 00:50:03.514 I would. 00:50:03.514 --> 00:50:10.114 It's still very important, um, but like, again, you have a ton of authority already. 00:50:10.114 --> 00:50:12.960 You have lead sources coming from other places. 00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:19.405 But like, yeah, it's uh, if you're gonna get any reviews, send them to google. 00:50:19.405 --> 00:50:23.737 First and foremost, they are the arbiter of of yeah, well they're the arbiter of chad. 00:50:23.737 --> 00:50:25.922 You know, it's like you were talking about how you were showed up on GPT. 00:50:25.922 --> 00:50:30.039 I mean, GPT is just using like SEO. 00:50:30.702 --> 00:50:32.989 Interesting Like in order to return its results. 00:50:32.989 --> 00:50:39.554 So the reason that you got returned on GPT is because you were returned on for for search as it was. 00:50:39.974 --> 00:50:47.599 you just was searching there, and so does that make sense, like it's that absolutely makes sense and one of the things that I haven't done yet that I plan to do. 00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:58.067 It's like, as a note, my inbox is to literally go in chat and ask why I was suggested and like how you can be suggested. 00:50:58.067 --> 00:51:02.635 Feels very meta to do this inside of the platform, but like it'll tell you, you know what I mean. 00:51:02.635 --> 00:51:05.541 So like to ask what have you ever done it? 00:51:05.541 --> 00:51:06.422 Have you ever asked? 00:51:06.704 --> 00:51:07.784 I haven't, but it's gonna. 00:51:07.784 --> 00:51:11.211 I haven't asked Chad, but I've done a ton of research into this. 00:51:11.211 --> 00:51:12.193 Now I'm no like. 00:51:12.193 --> 00:51:16.510 Listen, I know the 20% that's going to get you 80% of the results. 00:51:16.751 --> 00:51:18.795 I'm not like the guy who's like completely obsessed. 00:51:18.795 --> 00:51:24.465 It was like and if you do this and you, you know, I don't know, so, uh, I mean it's it's taking. 00:51:24.465 --> 00:51:28.775 Nobody knows the exact indicators for like why a website would rank. 00:51:28.775 --> 00:51:45.157 Like they always release, like here's the new notes for kind of our like what we're taking into consideration, but there isn't like this is going to be 30% of the you know whatever, but like we know a few things and it's like Chai GPT is dumb. 00:51:45.157 --> 00:51:50.025 It only knows what you give it and what we've given. 00:51:50.025 --> 00:51:52.438 It is how google ranks things. 00:51:52.438 --> 00:51:53.882 It's so it's not like it's. 00:51:53.882 --> 00:51:55.710 It's not like it's reinventing something. 00:51:55.710 --> 00:52:04.516 It's just using the same metrics you know, and so, whatever keywords you put into chai gbt, like, that's what it's going to be returning for you more or less. 00:52:04.556 --> 00:52:05.416 I mean like within. 00:52:05.416 --> 00:52:09.846 You know there's there's some sway there but, like you know, your backlinks are still. 00:52:10.050 --> 00:52:27.072 One of the biggest indicators of of like the authority that your site has is what other websites are linking back to it and so like you can have all of your on-site stuff you know your, your h tags and your meta description and meta titles and all that stuff can be perfect. 00:52:27.072 --> 00:52:37.614 But if no one is like giving you a vote of confidence by linking back to you, it's like it's not like you're going to suddenly rank so your site is already killing it Cause you're you've got a ton of backlinks. 00:52:37.614 --> 00:52:44.121 It's like you've been around for a long time, Like there's all these indicators that Google has and chat, GPT has tapped into those. 00:52:44.983 --> 00:52:50.807 So what Ben is saying is make sure you have other people linking back to you in your website. 00:52:50.807 --> 00:52:52.414 That's huge. 00:52:52.949 --> 00:52:57.918 The biggest things you can be doing, assuming I mean make sure your onsite stuff is set up properly. 00:52:58.280 --> 00:52:58.521 Sure. 00:52:58.851 --> 00:53:02.201 One of the easiest things to do is just like get your own. 00:53:02.201 --> 00:53:07.440 And if you don't know what I'm talking about, literally just like, just do a your own, and if you don't know what I'm talking about. 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:08.483 Literally just like just do a quick search. 00:53:08.483 --> 00:53:11.211 What has been mean by onsite SEO and how can I make sure my homepage is correct? 00:53:11.211 --> 00:53:13.998 It's like this is where you just pull levers right. 00:53:13.998 --> 00:53:15.309 It's like here, go, do this thing. 00:53:15.309 --> 00:53:16.391 It's very like analytical. 00:53:16.391 --> 00:53:20.317 I should only have one H tag and it should be my niche and location. 00:53:20.757 --> 00:53:22.378 Yeah, I go make that change. 00:53:22.378 --> 00:53:25.762 Like done it, um, all right. 00:53:25.762 --> 00:53:34.543 I think probably one of the biggest complaints or concerns maybe that photographers have is you know why. 00:53:34.543 --> 00:53:36.652 Why am I not getting enough inquiries? 00:53:36.652 --> 00:53:38.235 Why am I getting ghosted? 00:53:38.235 --> 00:53:40.661 I'm not getting enough bookings? 00:53:40.661 --> 00:53:48.023 Um, what would you say to the photographer that is feeling that way right now in their business? 00:53:49.090 --> 00:53:56.405 Yeah, I would say that ice melts at exactly 32 degrees Fahrenheit. 00:53:56.405 --> 00:54:08.420 And you may be doing a lot of things and you may be, we'll say, warming up the room, but it's still only 30 degrees. 00:54:08.420 --> 00:54:10.853 It's not going to melt until it's 32. 00:54:10.853 --> 00:54:26.900 Things happen slowly and then all at once, and so I think a lot of people are like you've been working for a while and you've been chugging away and you haven't seen the ice start to melt, you haven't seen that that take off and there is kind of like this critical mass that that that can occur.

00:54:26.900 --> 00:54:30.344 And so I would stay, I would say keep showing up. 00:54:30.344 --> 00:54:34.295 I would say be kind to yourself in this process. 00:54:34.295 --> 00:54:42.273 Um, I would say, uh, put your blinders on, meaning like, don't be looking at. 00:54:42.795 --> 00:54:46.880 Alice and all the clients. 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:53.842 Alice has got you know like, uh, just focus on you and and where you're at, and it's going to keep you showing up a lot more. 00:54:54.650 --> 00:54:57.880 So, um, that's what I would say. 00:54:57.880 --> 00:55:00.858 I like that. 00:55:00.858 --> 00:55:06.612 Would you say that that could parlay into mindset, like, is that kind of a mindset thing too? 00:55:06.612 --> 00:55:10.661 Or would you say that you have some sort of mindset advice for someone? 00:55:11.570 --> 00:55:15.157 Well, I think a lot of us have we have it backwards. 00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:23.152 We have high expectations and we have low standards, and I think it's mostly because we lie to ourselves often and we disappoint ourselves. 00:55:23.152 --> 00:55:25.460 And so why would we have my standards? 00:55:25.460 --> 00:55:32.471 Let me explain. 00:55:32.471 --> 00:55:32.972 Yeah, I need more of this. 00:55:32.972 --> 00:55:40.135 What I mean is like if you had an employee who constantly said I'll be there at 10, and then they showed up at 1130 each day, would you give that employee a raise? 00:55:40.135 --> 00:55:42.141 Would you give them more responsibility? 00:55:42.141 --> 00:55:43.592 Would you give them more money? 00:55:44.414 --> 00:56:03.250 No, and yet here we are saying like okay, tomorrow I'm going to get up at nine and I'm going to do that blog post and and I know it's just you, but that that lie to yourself it impacts the respect that you even have internally and it also starts to increase the things that you tolerate. 00:56:03.250 --> 00:56:05.659 It's like you're tolerating this behavior within your own psyche. 00:56:05.659 --> 00:56:08.679 You start to tolerate from others, you know. 00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:33.568 And so I think that if we started to treat our business as if we were actually working for somebody else, and if we didn't show up in the way that we said we were, if we didn't do the commitments that we expressed, we would that we would get fired, and some of you have already gotten fired and you just don't realize it, because it's your own job and you're at home still and you think you still have a job and you don't. 00:56:33.568 --> 00:56:34.692 No one's told you you're fired. 00:56:34.692 --> 00:56:36.617 You fired yourself, like does that make sense? 00:56:36.617 --> 00:56:37.581 What I'm trying to say here? 00:56:38.110 --> 00:56:38.932 It actually does. 00:56:39.273 --> 00:56:45.625 When I said keep your, I think a lot of people have their their expectations high and their standards low. 00:56:45.625 --> 00:56:49.634 It's like our expectation is like all right, I'm gonna do a, I'm gonna start posting. 00:56:49.634 --> 00:56:51.954 You know, I'm gonna get my. 00:56:51.954 --> 00:56:52.376 Here we go. 00:56:52.376 --> 00:56:54.436 I'm gonna do the SEO stuff that Ben talked about. 00:56:54.436 --> 00:56:58.378 I'm gonna start ranking for SEO so I can show up on, you know, chetgpt or whatever. 00:56:59.289 --> 00:57:01.070 And so we say we're gonna go and we do this stuff. 00:57:01.070 --> 00:57:07.295 Our standards, our expectation is that we're going to make the changes to our homepage and we're going to get to page one next week. 00:57:07.295 --> 00:57:20.385 Our expectations are extremely high, but our standards are low, meaning we bail, like this stuff doesn't happen fast People love the word fast Doesn't happen fast, doesn't happen as quickly as Alice. 00:57:20.385 --> 00:57:24.228 Yeah, yeah, it worked for Alice, you know. 00:57:24.228 --> 00:57:45.858 And then we bail, we go to the next shiny thing or we go and we make this like a statement this, this internal uh decree that like seo doesn't work the amount of times that we have said these things about like facebook ads don't work, seo doesn't work, uh, word of mouth marketing doesn't work. 00:57:45.858 --> 00:57:54.802 It's like, well, it didn't work for you the way that you did it, in the amount of time that you gave it to work. 00:57:54.802 --> 00:58:05.483 And instead, I would encourage you to start the discipline of keeping your expectations low and your standards high. 00:58:05.483 --> 00:58:10.119 This means that you keep showing up. 00:58:10.119 --> 00:58:17.539 It's like you extend the horizon of whatever it is that you're aiming for, knowing that doing the right thing is always the right thing. 00:58:17.539 --> 00:58:27.632 And if I keep showing up and I keep putting in everything that I got, that like you're going to be moving in the direction that you need to be moving and so like. 00:58:27.652 --> 00:58:33.856 Even for me, you know, I did an Instagram, instagram, facebook live back when that was a popular thing. 00:58:33.856 --> 00:58:39.771 Every single day I did a live video and I did it for a couple of years. 00:58:39.771 --> 00:58:42.003 And then I did the same thing with Instagram reels. 00:58:42.003 --> 00:58:44.333 I did an Instagram reel every single day for like two years. 00:58:44.333 --> 00:58:48.336 My expectations were extremely low and I got to tell you it was low. 00:58:48.336 --> 00:58:54.400 I mean, I had, like it was crickets, it was like two people watching two people watching two people watching one person watching. 00:58:54.400 --> 00:59:07.972 You know, and and but my, my standard for myself was it was a commitment to myself Wow, like I am, I'm, I'm on this path. 00:59:07.972 --> 00:59:18.632 I know that I suck, I'm willing to look a fool so that tomorrow I will be a little bit better and the next day I'll be a little bit better, and so I think that a lot of us, we have really high expectations and we've got low standards and we need uh, I think

we need to adjust. 00:59:18.632 --> 00:59:21.295 Um, I think we need to adjust. 00:59:21.777 --> 00:59:28.190 That's incredible and and kudos to you for having that level of commitment. 00:59:28.190 --> 00:59:37.670 Um, that's a lot harder to achieve than we probably care to admit to ourselves, Like I. 00:59:37.670 --> 00:59:38.871 Consistency. 00:59:40.211 --> 00:59:40.431 Yeah. 00:59:41.012 --> 00:59:47.956 I mean, and you've built a massive following which I'd love for you to share about that community. 00:59:47.956 --> 01:00:04.847 I want to end on that because I really those last two questions, I think, really hit home even for me, and so I want you to share about your community, where photographers can find you, where they can go to dig deeper. 01:00:04.847 --> 01:00:10.742 I know you have some free resources, so can you talk a little bit about those things, um yeah, for sure. 01:00:10.882 --> 01:00:14.956 I would just say uh, if you enjoy, my voice doesn't annoy you. 01:00:15.498 --> 01:00:19.692 You can listen to, uh, our podcast, catherine, looking forward to having you on. 01:00:19.692 --> 01:00:27.103 Um, so just a six figure photography podcast S I X photography, itunes, spotify. 01:00:27.103 --> 01:00:32.922 So just I would say, go listen to that. 01:00:32.922 --> 01:00:33.304 That'd be awesome. 01:00:33.304 --> 01:00:34.389 I'd love to, I'd love to have you tune in. 01:00:35.449 --> 01:00:41.538 And then one of the things that gets really practical, cause I think some of the stuff I'm sharing is a little I mean, it's good, it's needed, and sometimes it's a little pie in the sky, a little bit like okay, so what do I do? 01:00:41.538 --> 01:00:51.599 If you're looking for what to do, I put together 30 ways that you can get clients that aren't using paid ads. 01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:59.902 It's like 30 fresh, creative, new ways that you could be implementing to get new leads and I would encourage you to go check that out. 01:00:59.902 --> 01:01:03.559 I split it up over three days because there's a lot of content and it's just pure gold. 01:01:03.559 --> 01:01:07.402 And listen, if only like, five of them are like that was awesome. 01:01:07.402 --> 01:01:08.144 That's. 01:01:08.144 --> 01:01:12.518 My aim is like give you five things that you're like yes, I know what to do now for the month of July or whatever. 01:01:12.518 --> 01:01:15.150 So you can get that at six. 01:01:15.150 --> 01:01:19.096 S I X figure photography, not photographer. 01:01:19.096 --> 01:01:22.420 Six figure photographycom. 01:01:22.420 --> 01:01:25.264 Forward slash 30, three zero. 01:01:25.264 --> 01:01:25.943 The number 30,. 01:01:25.943 --> 01:01:27.811 Three zeros, 30 ways to get clients. 01:01:28.672 --> 01:01:29.012 Love it. 01:01:29.012 --> 01:01:31.255 Thank you so much. 01:01:31.255 --> 01:01:36.585 You, I feel like the past hour for me has gone by so fast. 01:01:36.585 --> 01:01:41.978 You're very um good with the way you explain things. 01:01:41.978 --> 01:01:44.643 It's easy to listen to and digest. 01:01:44.643 --> 01:01:50.311 Way you explain things, it's easy to listen to and digest. 01:01:50.311 --> 01:02:13.222 I feel like, personally, I've been impacted by what you've said because of the way you explain it and the truth behind it, and so I just wanted to say that, personally, I feel like I've been able to get some good takeaways, um, just from listening to explain it in a way that feels digestible, which goes back to your ability to tell stories. 01:02:13.222 --> 01:02:17.061 So, um, great job, and thank you for your time. 01:02:17.061 --> 01:02:20.913 I know that you are very busy and you know you've got a lot going on. 01:02:20.913 --> 01:02:23.219 So, yeah, this was so much fun. 01:02:23.219 --> 01:02:24.822 This was so much fun, ben, thank you. 01:02:25.309 --> 01:02:25.992 Thank you, catherine. 01:02:25.992 --> 01:02:26.735 I appreciate you so much. 01:02:26.735 --> 01:02:31.068 You're a great interviewer, great, great Just it was just fun to have a conversation with you, so thank you.