Full Transcript for 3. Ritchie Mehta, Marketing fellow; author; podcaster; entrepreneur

role of marketing and how the importance of marketing in an organization to really truly create both commercial and societal value. And so it was just engaging with, and I Never met them at that point, but it was certainly engaging with them on that level and just being inspired by those around me that really helped me to shape the vision of the person that I wanted to become. and then I think many, many moons later, I got the opportunity to meet both of my heroes. People say don't meet your heroes, but I think in this case it's just not true. Because they were truly inspirational individuals even at that moment in time. Many, many moons later. and it really validated the fact that I was on the right path. So James: Mmm. Ritchie: I do think that. That you know it's individuals you meet, it's it's inspiration that you come across. and those were the sort of the things, those embryonic points in my life where I was still searching for what I wanted to become. It was those type of influences that really helped me to shape the kind of individuals. And if there's any advice I'd give to anybody listening in here today, it's about really do find and think about, you know, if you were gonna be somebody else, and of course their journey will never be yours. But if there was somebody that would really inspire you that you could be like, who would that person be? Because James: Mm. Ritchie: if you can find that individual, you at least have a bit of a pathway, a little bit of a roadmap that can help you along the way to identify some of the key stages that you could go on in order to achieve that same level of success that they've had. James: Yes, kind of like North Stars, know, a kind of constellation of people who give you a certain direction because I think it's really important what you said that not everyone, there's no one who's really got your unique physiology, experiences, aspirations, so that's really good and I'm taking it you're a mentor to people at moment. Ritchie: I tried to be. I tried to be. I think the I think what's important about the role of mentors is that it's very much a two way street. You know, you James: Mmm. Ritchie: learn as much from individuals as as they perhaps learn from you. James: Yeah. Ritchie: and so for me, I think more than being a mentor, I'm a bit of a yes man, which is James: Yep. Ritchie: I just love to explore new things, meet new people, be willing and open, you know, no matter who, you know, who those individuals are. Just to be able to, you know, engage with that. And then some some of those times, you know, people stick around for the longest of time. and others maybe you're, you know, are just in your life for a short space of time and that's absolutely fine. You know, there's it it kind of swings many which ways. I mean I just recently had a someone that that I I guess you could class as as me mentoring a little bit. And and then by the way, that's also talks to the notion of it being quite informal and loose. You don't need to kind know, call them out and and badge people per se all the time, but just take inspiration from different people and speak to them. and I think it was three years, and this is this is a I think a key point here that I've been sort of off and on chatting with this individual for three years, and he was he's a wonderful, wonderful man. And it was only fairly lately in one of our most recent chats whereas they I was able to connect him up with somebody, and he's just landed his next job as a consequence. And so I would just say that even when it's whether you talk about mentoring or indeed how you create opportunity, it's that opportunities never shout out loud. They always whisper. And it's how you take advantage of them, it's how you see them, it's how you are able to understand when there's a little bit of a wedge in the door. And it comes from being persistent, it comes from staying in the game and keeping in touch with the right people. That's an that's that's a really important sort of point. But it also comes from, you know, the trust that you've built with those individuals is had I not introduced the person because I didn't trust that individual, it never would have worked. So I think I think there's James: Yeah. Ritchie: a few things that go on when it comes to these mentoring relationships that I think are important. James: Yeah, that's fascinating. And you mentioned trust and marketing is also an interesting discipline because, you know, the ethical frameworks we have is quite important in terms of guiding the decisions where we choose to put our abilities. what kind of experiences and perspectives have you got on that on your journey? Ritchie: I think trust is pivotal. And I think you've touched on two dimensions there, James. One is the sort of the personal career development and one is maybe more professionally in in the context of marketing. It can take each in turn, really. I think the the first thing is how does trust develop? How does trust form between a bond between different people and stakeholders? And I think there's a few things. The first thing is I think it takes time. And I think people need to have a sense of a shared sense of value system. Or if it's James: Mmm. Ritchie: not necessarily shared, at least a level of predictability. I think trust comes from an understanding of knowing what another individual may potentially do in in a certain situation. I think therefore that's there's there's that that needs to come through. I think the other thing about trust is there needs to be a sense of consistency through the process. You know, people understand what you're gonna do, and you do it over time, you do it exceptionally well, and therefore when they come on and call on you, they know that you're gonna deliver to that quality and standard. And I think if there's variability in the mix, then that's where untrust or distrust kind of comes in. I think the other thing about trust is that it takes a

very, very long time to build and a very, very short time to break. And James: Yeah. Ritchie: so the the the thought is that you've really got to make sure that you stay in that, stay in that sort of consistent zone for the longest time and recognize that there are moments where there could be fractures in that relationship. And it's actually how you're able to overcome those fractures, which are really important. And that's where things like communication become really important. you know, being transparent with individuals. about your intentions, not just your actions, become really James: Yeah. Ritchie: important. So those those sort of some of the key things that I think, just to make sure you build those trusting relationships and keep them for the long term. I think it's it's James: Mmm. Ritchie: quite important. You know, when you when you think about Trust in the context of of marketing and and organizations, I think that true is an underlying factor that sits at the heart of a brand promise. The fact James: Yeah. Ritchie: that, you know, I will do what I say I'm going to do. And I think it works in that in that way as well. So you've you've got to make sure that not only is your brand talking the talk, it's walking the walk. And too often The disconnect actually is palpable. And James: Yeah. Ritchie: and the problem is there's no hiding places today because of you James: Yeah. Ritchie: know all the various elements around social media. And of course, when we think about LLM search, that's only going to get more pointed. So ultimately, the walk and the talk needs to really align in the greatest of ways. And I think that, you know, organizations, therefore, the role of a marketer in that context is to help organizations align the full funnel, and I don't mean the customer marketing funnel, the full organization funnel. So the way I think about this is you've got a foundational level of your brand purpose, your brand values, what you stand for, what your promise is. You've got your product propositions, which basically is the delivery mechanism that basically sits above that brand promise as to the embodiment and that should be a mirror image. You've got a service design and service proposition, which should be should be easy, frictionless, easy to engage with in a really helpful way that aligns back to the brand promise that you have. And then finally, you know, what are the extra value ads that you can offer people over and above, which again aligns back to that brand purpose and profit promise. And you need to get the whole sort of multi-dimensional approach correct in order for trust to engender and for people to keep coming back to you with consistency. And so I just think that trust on those levels are really important. And each and every level the marketer plays quite a critical role in being able to ensure that what they say is what the organization does. And I think that's you know, if they look from that framework, maybe it's quite helpful as a means to think about those different dimensions and ensure that each of those dimensions truly do deliver on the brand promise. James: Yeah, I agree. I really like that. And I think it's really important that between those dimensions that the marketeer or general leadership or people are role modelling those values because when you get the disconnects, that's where the cracks appear, isn't it, between thought and deed. Ritchie: Yeah, and and I think there's a you know, there's there's other frameworks to think about. One of the things that often are forgotten is the employee experience. So for example, you know, there are many examples where you you you probably think that the the service delivery and design isn't what you would expect. Or you have a poor experience with an employee who's at the front line as an example, or they're not happy, they're dissatisfied. Think about James: Yep. Ritchie: what was it called? Is it Glassdoor, which is the employee advocacy site that James: Yeah. Ritchie: you have Review site, and all of a sudden you're talking about these key, great key messages in your on your website and your marketing, and then you've got a terrible glass door score, and all of a sudden the inner workings of that just completely are the opposite of what you're trying to promote externally. And so, again, you know, you just need to create that ultimate consistency across the board in order to you know to create that cohesion and trust with your consumer because all of this is completely transparent today. Everybody can see, you know, see all James: Yeah. Ritchie: of that, and so it's my multidimensional to get right to then create that trust. James: Yeah, I agree. It's really interesting. It's a lot of CEOs or senior leaders say as you get more senior or climb higher, it's harder to actually know what's going on because people tend to not tell you the truth or their positioning things. But as you said, the ability to have these digital tools or platforms where it shines light on different areas is actually a gift for leadership if treated in the right way. Ritchie: Yeah, but I would argue that if if you're in a situation where you feel like you're not getting there's a bit of a you know, a barrier between you and the people that are working with you, I think that's a cultural thing that you need to overcome. Right? If someone is not able to really speak freely about what they're going through in the organization, then, you know, you'll ultimately be blindsided. And James: Yeah. Ritchie: organization failure happens faster and quicker than ever before. I mean there's Stats about how long an S&P 500 company lasts. And the last time I looked at it, I remember back in the day, talk about 50 years ago, the average lifespan of a of a FTSE 250 was going into multiple, multiple, multiple decades. And today I think it's eroding at the point of less than 20 years. So you can just see how fast these things are moving. And James:

Mmm. Ritchie: so, you know, you need to be able to have that culture where things are are broken down and and you're able to. To really understand the workings of the organization and how it's coming across. And there are key and you know, start with key indicators, right? You've got KPIs. I mean think about employee retention, think about employee SAT scores. the mechanisms to identify some of the problems, and of course you may need a more qualitative understanding to get to the root causes of them. But I think, you know, you can do a pretty good job today of understanding at the KPI level what are some of the issues that the organization's facing. James: Hmm. Ritchie: And then it's up to you as a leader to dig down into it and to create a culture of of not of fear, but of some of collaboration and and someone really wanting to open up about what they're going through. James: Yeah, yeah, agree, absolutely. And what do you think, I mean you've had a fascinating leadership journey yourself, what are the formative roles or experiences that have shaped your outlook the most? Ritchie: So I'm a marketer, but I certainly at one point in my career was an aspiring to be marketer. And James: Hmm. Ritchie: I remember my my very first job that I had, in fact my very first two jobs I have, probably some of the best that I've ever had. One was at the Orange Shop in Edinburgh. When I was a student and I was helping people understand what phone packages and phones would suit their needs. And James: Yeah. Ritchie: then the second was when I first got to HSBC, I was in the Camden Town branch of the bank. And again, I was very much at the coal face of helping people address their financial needs. And I think both those experiences of being really at the coal face of interacting with customers have helped me in an incredible. stead Because sometimes when you're in marketing, you can just be a little bit too siloed. You can end up being a little bit too in the deeds in the weeds of data and numbers. The classic, you know, a customer is a number. And yet you forget that it's a customer on the ground who's facing real problems and real challenges in their own lives, and therefore the interaction that they have with the organization is just them trying to solve a particular problem that they're going through in their James: Yeah. Ritchie: life. So I think those experiences of I never forget, you know, the difficult conversations that I have had with many, many customers, the needs that they've needed to address is is something that I always talk to and think about when I think about marketing because marketing is just an aggregated version of one customer in one interaction at one moment in time. And James: Yeah. Ritchie: I think that's where I you know I always think back to. Go back to the heart of the customer. What are they thinking about? What are their needs? What are they going through at the moment? What are the pain points in their lives? What are the pain points with the organization that you know that you're representing and trying to solve their problems and that's how value is then created. So that's one of the early learnings James: Yeah. Ritchie: that I gained very, very early on. And and I think that was that was very very embryonic and and very important for me as a lesson to learn. James: I love that. what's your favourite way of walking in a customer's shoes? Because, you know, as we know, there's a lot of data out there What's your favourite way of engaging customers? Ritchie: Yeah, I love what a what a great question. And like you say, there's so many conceptual ways. maybe I'll turn to one that I think is probably most relevant for today's context, and that is the role of synthetic data and digital twins. I think this is an area that every single marketer over the next two to three to four years will be using in spades. Although there are loads of synthetic data companies out there, Which basically just use syndication and aggregate data in order to understand and and draw up digital customer personas. And therefore the problem with those is that it sort of lacks any sort of ability to authenticate where that information came from. And often the trial and tribulation with synthetic data is that it kind of goes towards the average and the mean and therefore how useful is the insights that come back when you're aggregating James: Yeah. Ritchie: everything to and taking it back to an average. So actually there's been a you know, we spend a lot of time understanding this technology and and understanding where this could go. And we found an organization which basically has a human layer in between. And it basically means that every single digital twin is owned and run by an individual human in the back end, which then they go through a very dis sort of detailed process of understanding that individual on a human level, which then gets aggregated to a digital twin. And then that digital twin is then ingested into any single LLM that the brand may be using. And so when they call upon the understanding of that consumer they're literally calling on literally an individual that then has created that digital twin. And if you need to, you can actually have a Zoom call with that individual, the real life person, to validate some of those assumptions. So James: Interesting. Ritchie: I thought that just was a really smart way of Of being able to create and you know create a solution of customer understanding for the future that you can get research back in a matter of seconds when you ask it, but yet having the overarching layer of being able to have and talk back to the real humans who actually had that views and opinions if you ever wanted to. So you create that validation. And and so for me, I'm quite fascinated by that type of solution because it really brings humans in the loop. And I think the fear that I have, particularly in an AI world, is That we lose that human connection. And so it's

James: Yeah. Ritchie: these sort of hybrid type solutions to really understand and truly understand your customers is where I think this is gonna go. And I think that's the most, you know, really, really important. and it's gonna transform market research, it's gonna transform customer centricity, it's gonna transform every aspect of our marketing. Because if you think about it, you can literally now test any minutiae decision, any marketing decision that you ever make on the base on against a customer profile. And so if you're doing message testing, you can test it against your target audiences to see how well it resonates. Pricing methodologies, techniques, exactly the same. If you think about new propositions, you could pitch up a hundred ideas and within minutes, you can have the views and reviews of hundreds of your target audiences to really understand how well you're doing across that proposition design. And and it's all based on sort of an LLM AI world and therefore it's completely democratized, completely cost effective. This is going to transform the way we do marketing and it's and it's here to stay. And it's just starting off. And what an exciting time to be a marketer. But also, you know, what an exciting time to understand your customers. What an exciting time to really, you know, be able to take that customer understanding into every single thing that you do. I'm excited. James: It does sound from what you said that quite often with consumer research or segmentation models, they sit on various pages in a PDF and if you were fortunate enough to be there designing them, you've been in the room and you've heard it but it sounds like Ritchie: Not actionable. James: this brings that to life. But it's interesting as well, does make me think that... When I sat with customers so many times it's just those kind of abnormal responses that you don't expect. The little comment or the display of emotion or the movement of the body belies a kind of deeper truth that isn't immediately obvious. So yeah, I hope there's still space for that. Ritchie: I think I think there'll always be space for human and and an AI version of things. I think there's a pendulum with this. And clearly if on one side was human interaction, on the other side was completely AI, I think the world needs to go more to the right in order to come back to more to the left. I think James: Yeah. Ritchie: with this this just a journey that we've we've got to sort of go on. and I think we're well in the way and and underway of that. And I think that's what'll you know, that's what'll ultimately, you know, we will see more human in the loop solutions that come through for sure. James: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I hope so. I think in the rush to adopt AI, you've also, you know, thinking a bit ahead, you've got to develop talent, You need talent of the future and that feels a bit like an unresolved question at the moment if there aren't enough graduates Ritchie: I James: coming through, perhaps. Ritchie: I don't know, James. I don't know. I have a much more optimistic view on that than James: you Ritchie: Than what people lay out. And by the way, I you know I recognize the headlines, and it's and it's easy for someone who's midway through their career to talk on that basis. So, you know, I have a lot of empathy for young people coming through. But what I would say, there's a couple of things that might be helpful here. The first thing I would say is that marketing has always suffered for this problem. Now, if you think about there was a there was a bit of a terminology around a T-shaped marketer. Have you come across that, James? James: Yeah. Ritchie: So the T-shape, right? So you have generalist marketing skills, but then you are a specialist in one particular area of the marketing process. What tends to happen over the last 10 to 15 years is we ended up having many, many more specialists as the marketing sort of as the marketing space fragmented, you know, you became a specialist at Amazon or Meta or a certain aspect of brand design or UX or CX. Very, very small specialisms and silos. And as a consequence, actually succession planning became really difficult because you didn't have anybody in the organization or few who actually had a plethora of general Skills that enabled you to have sort of you know elevate yourself into more senior marketing roles. And as old as we know, a CMO has to have a purview of the entire marketing mix in order for it for them to be successful. So James: Yeah. Ritchie: turn that on its head, we had succession planning problems even then. And in fact, younger people were probably sitting in those specialist roles or going into those specialist roles as opposed to James: Mm. Ritchie: generalists. So then there was maybe starting to be a glass ceiling on how this came through. And I look at it today, and I think that when I think Think about young people, And let's be a bit generalist and and of course there are exceptions, but they are more digitally savvy. They have James: Mmm. Ritchie: they they're probably coming up in an AI native type of space. So there's more intuition that plays into the mix. They've got a an intuition around the the UX and CX, and therefore they become very valuable players, particularly compared to the older generations who didn't necessarily have and grown up with that same that same skill set. So James: Yeah. Ritchie: one Can argue they're even more valuable than those at sort of other, you know, other higher up sort of generations gone by. And I think the thing that we have to wrap our heads around is there may well be less graduate employment, yes. But that's also shaping the way we've worked over the last 10-15 years, which is more flexible, which is more agile. Yes, maybe it's it's you know, the milk round of me coming through an HSBC grad program, it doesn't really appeal to a lot of young people today. They don't want that sense. Of structure, they are looking for

something else, they are looking for more empowerment, they're looking for more freedom and independence in the work that they do. And the skills that they have will probably sit across a variety of organizations, not just one. Right? What James: Mmm. Ritchie: they could be a consultant to many. So the notion of succession planning and young people not having opportunities, I think needs to be slightly reframed. Because actually, one, they're more probably AI savvy than the rest of us. Two, they probably want to work in a different way anyway, and Therefore, the way that we thought about succession planning is probably out the window because they wouldn't want to work in that way anyway. And three, even through that succession plan, actually a CMO or people who are doing those succession plans need to look at a larger pool and think about ecosystems as opposed to organizations. And if you look at it from an ecosystem perspective, you'll have lots of talent that you can call upon at any point in time. And some of that talent may remain independent, some of that talent may stay and remain in your own and may come into your own. Organization. But I just think it's a complete redesign of the framing that people have and the James: Yeah. Ritchie: framing of how young people see the future of work and then the fact that we all have to do this as well. So I just I James: Yeah. Ritchie: feel like we can get really bogged down in the be in the pessimistic view of the doomsday and and look at all those graduate you know headlines, or we can seek a new way. And I think that's what I'm advocating for to seek that new way. And if you're a young person listening into this, I would say that you've got tremendous opportunity and tremendous skills to do things, but do things in your own way as we are redesigning those rules. And I think that's what's important as the way to think about this in order to see success in the future. James: Yeah, that's really interesting. I like that. A couple of thoughts come to mind. One was how your book Climb actually equips people to think in many dimensions about how they look at their career and growth, which I can actually, you see I've got my own notes here. The other is this idea of ecosystems, which is fascinating. And, you know, quite often people have been talking about orchestration, but this fundamental reimagining of what an enterprise is and how it reacts and the role of the marketing leader I think is fascinating as well that in some ways you see that with the change of the traditional agency kind of client model and a lot more as you said specializations. So I mean what guidance do you give to marketing leaders or senior leaders around navigating that ecosystem, creating their own ecosystems? Ritchie: So I think people sitting at midway to top of the tree, I don't think it's a comfortable position at the moment. And and if I speak to many, they are all going through tremendous change. So you've got to embrace that

and you've got to kind of recognize that it's not you, it's the context in which you operate. So James: Yeah. Ritchie: I think there's a confidence piece that I think is the first thing to to think through. And maintaining that growth mindset is gonna be really important for you to realize your new place in the new world of work, as it were. I think the one thing that I would say is, or maybe two things I would say. The first thing is you've got to be a magpie. Magpies effectively are constantly scouring, constantly trying to figure out what the latest things are, what are the latest technologies, the tools, the strategies that other people at the more frontier of organizations are doing. If you're not a magpie, In effect, the shorthand is being incessantly curious, then you're gonna miss out on key evolutions that others will take advantage of. So you need to be the Magpie But equally, the problem that a lot of leaders will have is in how do you really change the organizations in which you work. Because that's your remit, right? As a senior leader, you are there to go through the transformation. And and often you're encumbered with legacy and you're encumbered by culture and you're encumbered by bureaucracy and politics. And a lot of the things won't be in your hands and and actually you have to be a master inspirer, stakeholder manager and and so on and so forth, influencer, in order to help your organization realize a new path. as it were. So I think you've got to develop your skills, particularly in those core areas. When I think about things like storytelling is a great skill set to start thinking through. But more so also start to set up structures that allow you to experiment and to trial things out. So one of the big problems typically is procurement, right? So if you've got a really new, interesting thing that you would like to develop, you kinda go, gosh, how am I supposed to get this small potential startup organization through the through the procurement barriers in order for me to trial them out to see if this is something that we could scale up and add more. value than our competitor set, ultimately. And you've got to set up a structure that allows you and enables you to do those small-scale experiments to then realize what value could be in your context of doing that certain activity. And so I would just say there needs to be a little bit more of ring fencing in that scenario to be able to work that through. So how do you do that in your context is going to be incredibly important. You still have to run your BAU, that's just the normal day job. But how do you create a little bit of a lab in the context of your organization in order for you to see the Next frontier to try so magpie map magpie mindset with sort of a bit of a you know a a badger's action. Keep on going, keep on experimenting, keep on kind of running down the track to figure out if those new things and new frontiers could be the way forward for you. And I think those are some of the things that I would say to kind of bring it back. mindset on the one hand, positive growth mindset. You can do this, you're part of this, you can, you know, you can you can take charge of your destiny, very important. Two. Realizing where that destiny could lie, the magpie mindset, again, very important to understand what's around the corner, and creating structures to convince your organization that this is the right way to go. And that that is both a skill set around influencing the organization, but also setting up tangible structures of experimentation where you could kind of constantly be thinking about what's next. James: Yeah brilliant, I love that Richie, it's really really compelling vision for leaders there on how they can stay ahead of change or keep energized. A couple of things that really fascinated me there, I mean you mentioned being incessantly curious but also the growth mindset, how to stay optimistic, looking at keeping your magpie view energised. How do you do that personally? What techniques do you have or how do you keep your growth mindset going? Ritchie: I think all of us have a bit of a disposition in how we see the world. For me, I have a bit of an explorer mindset where I'm just constantly curious about what's behind the next door. James: Hmm. Ritchie: And and that kind of leads me to think about, you know, how do I have new conversations? How do I read new things that interest me? How do I, in fact, sometimes read things that don't interest me because there may well be something interesting behind that door too? It's that, it's that whole thought about the world is an adventure. We are genuinely here for a nanosecond. I think perspective is a great thing. There was a amazing mentor when I was going through a bit of a hard time. He said, Let me paint you a picture. He said, you know, we're all in space and we're all a bunch of aliens. Yes. And one day you this the the master alien says to you, you can go down to that little speck which is a million miles away, and you know, you can go down and do that exploring on that little place there. And, you know, my nature would say, Well, yeah, I'd love to go and do that. But the catch is, you can only do it for about five seconds. You can go there, you can have that little adventure, but before you know it, you're gonna be zip, right back to my alien land. The question is, what would you do with that five seconds? Would you be consumed with the worldly problems? Would you be consumed with you know, all the things that the troubles that we often think are, James: you Ritchie: you know, reputations and lack of reputations and and all those sort of things in the context knowing that actually it's gonna last for a very, very short piece of time. And it really is, you know, a hundred years in the context of billion years of being on this earth James: Yeah. Ritchie: is a very, very short space of time. And so I always just think, make the most of it, go on those

adventures, try new things out, be willing to experiment. And James: Yeah. Ritchie: I would just say that What helps me a lot is one, not to forget that, but two is to process the process. So Seth Godwin when we interviewed him, he said something amazing. He said, look, there's a reason why it's called work. You could be having a really shitty day, and yet you've got to go and work. and it doesn't mean that you have to enjoy everything, but it still means you have to go and do it. And I think that's the mindset that I bring, which is when I I challenge myself and I say, look, twice a week I'm gonna get out in the evening and I'm gonna go to a networking event. Now people may hate the word networking, but I'm gonna go out and meet new people. Great. That's my process. I know I've gotta do that. My KPI has been set. I know that I'm gonna listen to three podcasts this week. I know that I'm going to you know, read a book a month. I know I'm going to you know, host a workshop once a month. Whatever those whatever those things are, those curious avenues for you to get out of your comfort zone are and then you have a set KPI for them and you know when it's cloudy and it's raining and it's cold and you just don't want to do it because it sucks. It's work and you've got to do it. And so I James: Mm. Ritchie: think there's something in creating a process for yourself around these key things that will make all the difference and come, you know, rain or shine or whatever it is, you're gonna fulfill those KPIs. And so James: Yeah. Ritchie: that's how I see see the world and and what I need to do within it. Just a combination of adventure, but also process the process. James: Yeah, I really like that. I think that kind of tension between exploring and being free and wanting to open the doors and, you know, be curious, but also the discipline to keep to know that you've got a process and you want to move step by step towards your dreams. Ritchie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I I also I also think that you can't be open, creative, and exploratory if you're constantly fighting for your lunch. James: Yeah. Ritchie: It's just the way it goes, right? You know, you'll be get too consumed in the weeds of the next day. and so this comes down to commerciality. Right? You've gotta figure out the ways in which you are earning your keep, your long-term, you know, your long-term keeper on the world, certainly for today, which will give you comfort for that exploration to take place. And James: Yeah. Ritchie: so I think that's an important thing to first figure out before you can become a true explorer. And I think in today's context, and I was having this interview and I absolutely loved this perspective. The person had just got fired or left, whatever you'd call it, And I go, gosh, are you nervous about that? You know, you're looking for your next thing? They go, no, not really. I said, Well, what do you mean? Well, you know, you must how you gonna how are you gonna, you know, keep going? They go, yeah, well, I've got 12 revenue streams. Like, what do you mean you've got 12 revenue streams? And they go, well, actually, it's you know, and I said, ring them off for me. He says, Well, I was as a youngster, I was able to invest in this property and I've got a bit of equity back in that. Now it's rented, so I get a bit of rental income for that. I just wrote this book and by the way, the next thing, I'm you know, I'm getting a bit of money coming in from that. and by the way, after my between my second and my third job, I started this little side hustle and I'm selling this little product on Amazon and it's giving a bit of cash from that. And he kept on bringing these different ways in which he was earning his keep. In different sort of other than what our mainstream, our mainstream employment may may think about. And I like that thought. And I don't I'm not advocating to have that many diversified revenue Streams. I'm not saying that's James: Mmm. Ritchie: for everybody, but I am saying that he had a very good handle on what he was going to do next and what he, you know, how he could keep that economic activity going because he had built a number of those, what we'd obviously call side hustles and turned James: Yeah. Ritchie: them in small little side hustles. Enough of them turned him into, well, I'm I'm kind of okay and I don't have to kind of jump into the next thing. I can take James: I'm Ritchie: my time to explore. And so I just urge everybody to think a little bit about how they kind of you know infuse commerciality into their worlds and now building up that sense of commerciality to become a bit more of an explorer and not have to get so caught up in the I'm worried about where my lunch is coming from. Because that then that's a real inhibitor for you know for being able to kind of branch out and be your own person. James: That's such a great example and one of reasons I really like it is that you're talking about being an explorer which could sound like quite a big thing but they're like a series of mini experiments and you can have your main job and you can experiment on a couple of things and open some doors. Ritchie: Exactly. Exactly that. And you never know where the and never know where those doors are gonna take you. James: Yeah, yeah, I love that metaphor of the door. It's very powerful visual. And you mentioned earlier that you had some challenges when you were talking to your mentor. What are the biggest challenges you faced in your career? Ritchie: Too many to call, to be honest. Too many to call. James: Hahaha. Ritchie: I was doing this keynote the other day and you know like all all keynotes as they start, someone introduces you and they sort of ring off your accomplishments, and you spend half the time going, I can't believe they're talking about me in the first instance. But what all of those accomplishments always hides is the monumental amount of failure that James: Mmm. Ritchie: comes in the mix

that no one ever hears about. And I'm genuinely a just you know, a combination of all those failures put together, which then gives you one little leg up and you grab with, you know, every inch with your nails to kind of grab up one after the next. And that's I'm sure many, many people relate to that. I mean I recall, like maybe give you a few examples. I started my career at HSBC in Camden Town, as I mentioned, and I used to live James: Hmm. Ritchie: in Maida Vale which is in north London, and probably about a half an hour, forty minute walk from from the branch home. And it just so happened coincidentally that I would cross Primrose Hill every day, which is the most wonderful place in London for anyone who's who's not visited. It's a lovely hill where you get a panoramic view of the city. It just gives you an amazing context of being able to dream. And I and I'm a dreamer at heart. And I used to kind of go up the hill every day and just look into the distance of Canary Wharf and go, Well, how am I ever gonna get to HSBC HQ? you know, from Camden Town branch. And I just remember that moment, an idea came into my mind, and I thought, well, everybody, you know, all these really smart people who are in Canary Wharf, well, maybe if probably a lot of them have gone to Oxford and Cambridge. And maybe if I go to Oxford and Cambridge, well maybe I'll get there myself. So the long story short of it is I actually applied to get to do my master's at Cambridge and I got rejected, and I applied again and I got rejected, and I applied again and got rejected, and this is the third time that I was accepted for that spot. And it was just a power of tenacity of kinda going, Well, I'm just gonna put my application and year on year out They probably get sick of me and then let me in because they wanna get rid of me at some point, you know? And and these that's sort of how these things go. And it's just a trial of, you know, try, try, try until you succeed. But when you do succeed, give it your all And so today I'm a fellow at Cambridge Judge Business School. And it's a consequence of that tenacity. And that tenacity would never have you know, I would never be here if I hadn't been tenacious back then. So every failure can ladder up to success, but you just have to be willing to stay the course. and that's just one one of thousands of examples. I probably fail every single day of my life and it's just James: It's a brilliant example, I love that. I kind of had a picture of you talking to yourself and saying, don't worry, you go back in time, one day you'll be a fellow. I mean, yeah, yeah, that's great. Ritchie: Who's who's to know what the future holds, right? and that's and that's how it is, and that's how that's how you should reconcile with failure. And I think some of my biggest failures, I mean, I've never some jobs that I've been in I've not done as well as I I could have, should have, they didn't end as well as I would have wanted to. but I look back now and

I think, well, there's a reason why I was there. There's a reason why that role came into my life at that moment in time. and I could only see it now in hindsight. James: Yeah. Ritchie: So you can have a bit of faith. I'm a big believer in a bit of faith and and karma. James: I agree, mean, likewise, you don't know until you've been through it. And I think if you're an ambitious person and you're wanting to explore and open doors, I mean, if you're not ever failing inverted commas, how will you know that you've gone to the door at the end of the corridor or what is there at the end Ritchie: Yeah. James: of the corridor? Ritchie: Exactly And you know the other thing is that I think people people stay in roles too long. And I think that's another thing that we've just gotta be very conscious of. That James: Yeah. Ritchie: you've gotta be you've gotta know when the right time is to kinda go It's my time to leave, to get up, to do something different. And you've got to have the the gumption, the the courage sometimes to pick up and move on to the next thing. Because getting getting stuck, as so many people talk to, is a combination of a context, but it's a combination to the response that you're giving that context. you're stuck there because you're remaining to be stuck there. You're not changing those circumstances. And James: Yeah. Yep. Ritchie: so I think there's a bit of empowerment to to become unstuck in your career, which I think is really James: Yeah, Ritchie: important. James: definitely. Definitely from what you said around the ecosystem, fluid enterprise, requires a degree of agility, I think, from what you said. just building on that, you know, the knowing when to move on, the courage, I think courage is such a fascinating word. You obviously someone who's thought very carefully about how to move forward, how to change the game, like for yourself, for other people. What's your view, like what tips have you got on wanting to kind of change the game or think creatively? Ritchie: There was a a wonderful interview we did recently with Mike Souter, who who many of you may recognize by face, if not by name. he was on The Apprentice, one of the judges on The Apprentice. And and he talked about a level of organizations, that you're either an incumbent or you're a challenger. And challenger and you use the word insurgent as as it goes. And maybe the shorthand cue in in the context of your personal career is David versus Goliath. You're always either a David or you're always a Goliath, James: you Ritchie: right? In one shape, sense or form. And And I think your question more refers to the the Davids than than the Goliaths in this sense, and we all know how that story ends. But I do think that you know you will benefit from an insurgent mindset, right? How are you going to do things differently? How are you going to be more innovative? How are you going to challenge that status quo in the industry that you're in? There is always a different business model that can work and can run. Are you going to be a part of that? Do you the shape the you know in in the Context of business, either do it yourself or indeed be a part of an organization that actually is the insurgent. And I think understanding that sort of insurgent mindset is quite important for how you pivot and how you can move forward in this context. I mean, I think that said, I also think that there's definite roles for goliaths And what I mean by that is people who need to run big ships, you know, need to be in enterprise organizations, and maybe feeling a sense of safety. And numbers, or indeed that they want to run big teams, for example, the characteristics are of you know quite quite diverse between a David and Goliath. And you need to find, you know, you need to be have a cognizance of what whether you are a David or a Goliath in the grand scheme of things. But I think I think you know finding that, whether which one you are, and then doubling down on that and doubling down on those strengths is what's gonna basically ultimately hold you in great stead. And then what can David learn from Goliath and and Goliath learn from David is also a very important point. in order to try and figure out sort of new ways of doing things. I mean I'm definitely in the David camp. I love I love the insurgent mindset. I love doing things different. I love standing out. I love playing it differently. You know? James: Mmm. Ritchie: And and that's sort of held me in good stead, but I doubled down on that and I just know that if you put me in a Goliath environment, I'm not gonna thrive. It might sound appealing 'cause it's a bit safe, but I'm not gonna be in that and not not gonna really get the best out of me. And so you've just gotta figure out, you know, where you are, what you who you are and and what your strengths are, and then sort of double down on those, I would say. James: Yeah absolutely, self-knowledge is essential isn't it? Ritchie: Yeah, for sure. James: Ritchie if you were to meet your 18 year old self what advice would you give? Ritchie: Hmm. I would probably say two things. I would say you've got the gift of time and that you're on the right road and you're on the right path and the path is gonna be difficult. and at times you just won't have the answers, you won't know what the hell's going on, and you'll probably have very long moments and you you just won't know what to do. But just keep forging, keep forging on, because actually the answers do reveal themselves over time. James: Mmm. Ritchie: And I think that's that's one thing I would say. And then the the second thing I would say is that there's a temptation in me, which is when you feel really passionate about something to get very tunnel visioned into that thing. In fact, some very early on, there was a great mentor of mine who talked about the role of tunnel vision in your life in order to achieve success. And the way that I've I've realized it and it sort worked out

in my life is that I wish that I did have some tunnel vision, and I think I did for the longest time, but I also I also wish that I came up from that at some points to see a bigger picture too. And so the combination of tunnel vision, but yet stepping back and seeing the bigger wider world and seeing the bigger wider world of opportunity is something that I think I missed out on, certainly over the last two decades because I was so focused on what I was doing. So James: Yeah. Ritchie: I think it's that those two things in combination are really important and not just get two tunnel visioned and then you lose the wood from the trees as it were. James: That's very insightful, thank you. And if you were to talk to your 30 year old self, what advice would you give them? Ritchie: 30 is an amazing age for me. It's the the exact age that I I quit the day job and went on my my own way. And I remember this distinctly, literally like it was yesterday. I just had this urge to go, actually, what I'm doing right now is not for me. And it's not for me for the bigger for what I wanted to achieve in life. And it was about a month after my thirtieth birthday where I handed my notice in. And what I would say, looking back on all of that now, is maybe there's one philosophical thing, a more practical thing. One is You're doing the right thing. You're following you're following your your passion down and it's it's it's scary and it's really like ambiguous. And all of a sudden that career path that you thought you could have is no longer gonna be there. You're gonna be doing something completely different. And and I think I'm glad I'm really glad that my 30-year-old self had the courage to do that. Because I think that's really been the blessing of my life. James: Yeah. Ritchie: So but I and and very practically I would say that when I started my first business, I took too long to develop product. And I spent James: Mm. Ritchie: too long in a service industry. So consulting, advising, lecturing, services, time and materials in exchange for a value exchange for money. James: Mmm. Ritchie: And and the ones that will, if you're down that entrepreneurial route and you're in a service capacity, depending where you are in your life stage, this is only my advice to my own 30-year-old self. is the sooner I could have gotten to product development and start selling James: Mmm. Ritchie: product where you could disconnect time and materials from the the the proposition you offer, the better off, more scalable you could get to. And it took me a long time to learn that lesson. James: Mmm. Ritchie: So there's an immediate cash flow element that sits with services, which is great. But as you can kind of wean yourself off that and spend more time or a bit of time product propositionizing that service potentially, the the faster off you can wean yourself off time and materials and get into something which is more scalable, the better off you're going to be. So I wish I'd learned that

lesson maybe a few years earlier than I did. But there you go, everything in hindsight, as I said. James: You know that door once you've walked through it. That's Ritchie: Exactly, exactly. James: brilliant. Just a couple of last questions. Just thinking about, I love that kind of tunnel working on focus and looking wide out, just with a kind of wide view. What do you think the big challenges senior leaders in marketing are facing at the moment? And what do you think, from an optimistic perspective, is the... Ways forward for them. Ritchie: It's great question. So I'll take you back for just a moment. And if you think about the advent of electricity, I'm talking about centuries James: Mmm. Ritchie: ago. The issue that happened, in fact, if you read the studies, it took something like four to five decades for electricity to reach the mainstream. And the reason why it was the case, it was because The the people who are running the electric factories were trying to put the new way of working into the old. They were trying to kind of amalgamate all of that sort of fixed cost they had and trying to put their new the new way, the technology onto the onto that old system. And it was bottlenecking and it wasn't efficient and they weren't seeing the efficiencies coming through for the longest of time. And it was only when did they started to strip out the old and start with a blank canvas that they truly able to harness the power of where we're where they were going to. And that's the process James: Yeah. Ritchie: they were on, and it took 40 to 50 years to actually come to fruition. And today we're at exactly the same juncture where you think about team structures, you think about all the incumbent legacy systems and capability and technology and talent and tools and all of those sort of things. The leadership challenge of our day is to genuinely be brave enough to recognize what are some of those incumbent capabilities. That are holding them back. And by the way, this is a step this is a real systemic challenge because there will be some organizations, and particularly the new challenger organizations, which do have that blank slate. And James: Yep. Ritchie: if you're if you're in an enterprise organization with lots of legacy incumbents holding you back, then ultimately there's a real risk here of you know not will not be willing to kind of strip out the old to wait for the new. And I think that's a slightly philosophical sort of point, but it's also quite practical in that the leadership challenge. is to is to really recognize that sometimes the best thing you can do is to start with a blank canvas. But that comes with lots of complexity and tow, right? People, James: Yeah. Ritchie: organization design and structure, existing legacy systems, existing like relationships, partners, contracting, legal frameworks, all those things. Easy to say, not easy to implement. But I think sometimes I think that's the greatest challenge of the leader for today is to be able to kind of move the organization into the new James: Yeah, fascinating, fascinating. That dynamic is more intense and accelerated than ever before, but also a wonderful opportunity at the same time. Ritchie: Exactly. We are living in exciting times. James: Yeah brilliant. And just as we finish off, are there any hopes for the future or anything else you'd like to add? Ritchie: All I would say is that you pick up the media today and you look around the world, US politics, Middle East conflict, European conflict, technological shifts, AI, graduate jobs, societal issues faced all around us, societal unrest. All of those things are true. But if you dwell on them and you let it give you a sense that it's all doom and gloom, then that will become your predominant mindset. James: Yeah. Ritchie: And all I would say is don't do it. Don't let that become the thing that keeps you up at night. You there's tremendous opportunity. In fact, everyone, you know, we all know that it's probably the best time to be alive. The you know, the best healthcare you can get, the most economic value that you can create has ever been created now, the more travel you can do. We're talking about space exploration, which would never have been even on the James: You Ritchie: cards for anybody, you know, even a few decades ago. So it's an amazing time to be alive. And and I would just say that when you think about your career. Think about how you play a role in this and you help to solve these lofty challenges that the world is facing. Because it's in the loftiest challenges where the most success really does lie. The more complex the challenge, You know, the more that you can traverse through it and actually make an a real impact on this world. And I really hope that you do, and you do so with absolute positivity, and just go for it. You've got nothing to lose. Remember, you're just a little alien here for five seconds. James: Brilliant, I love that. Thanks so much Richie. Let's open the doors I think perhaps is a good way to finish. Thanks so much for your time. That was really insightful and look forward to hearing more about what you're doing over the coming weeks and at the Festival of Marketing soon. Ritchie: Thank you very much, James, and it's been such a pleasure talking to you as well. Speak very soon. Bye. James: Thanks, Richie. Take care.