Full Transcript for INTERVIEW CLASSIC (10 YRS AGO): Legacy of Verne Gagne discussed with announcer Mick Karch & wrestler Kenny Jay: Highs and lows of his career

years ago this week. 35 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:03.120 The Gushion spanned his years on top main eventing as 36 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:05.640 AWA Champion, his rise and fall as a promoter behind 37 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.000 the scenes, his reaction to Vincent Man's national expansion, and 38 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:11.960 how he just wasn't able to or willing to do 39 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:15.360 what it took to actually compete, although certainly the ESPN 40 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.120 deal was an attempt to compete. Also, some of his 41 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:22.039 super shows like the SuperClash. Also the role his role, 42 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.840 and the evolution of thehul Cogan babyface character, which was 43 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:28.879 pretty much fully formed before vincick Mann signed Holkogen Hulkamania 44 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:33.120 was born under the auspices of Vern and Greg Gania. 45 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:36.159 Greg was his son who also helped Hogn quite a 46 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.280 bit with his with his babyface character. So let's get 47 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:40.919 to it. This is over an hour and a half 48 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:44.960 of historical insights and great stories from Mick carsh and 49 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.639 Kenny j. This originally live streamed on April thirtieth, twenty fifteen, 50 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:53.439 and it is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, The 51 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:58.719 Interview Classic for Saturday, May third, twenty twenty five. Baby, 52 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.039 Welcome to the p W Torch Live Cast. I am 53 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:18.439 Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch 54 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:23.520 weekly newsletter since nineteen eighty seven and also pwtorch dot 55 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:27.919 Com since nineteen ninety nine, PW Torch app available on 56 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:32.319 iPhone and Android, and also host of this the PW 57 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:34.719 Torch Live Cast. We are here five days a week 58 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:39.120 Monday through Friday and Sundays after major WWE pay per views, 59 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:42.520 were the only weekly Monday through Friday talk show covering 60 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:46.159 professional wrestling exclusively for the past five plus years, and 61 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.840 we thank you for joining us again today. Yesterday, Pat 62 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:55.199 McNeil was joined by Chris Cruise from WC of ww 63 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:57.599 Announcing Fame and also a friend of the Torch who's 64 00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:00.319 been on the show multiple times in the past. And 65 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:05.360 on Tuesday, I was joined by Jason Powell of Pro 66 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:10.520 Wrestling dot Net and he, he and I discussed Monday 67 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:14.439 Night Raw and also what we'll be talking about today 68 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.399 on Interview. Thursday here on PW Torch Live cast the 69 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:23.120 death of vern Gania at age eighty nine, and we 70 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:27.399 are I'm excited to be able to talk about what 71 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:29.720 vern Gania meant to me as a wrestling fan again 72 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.319 as I did on Tuesday, and what he meant to 73 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:37.120 professional wrestling with two people who had a chance to 74 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:41.639 follow his career closely in different roles. And the first 75 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.160 person I'm gonna bring on is Mick carsh who worked 76 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:48.040 for verne Gania as part of the AWA in Las 77 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.240 Vegas on the ESPN tapings, Mike A. Former Progres and 78 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:55.759 Towards columnist, a frequent guest here at PW Torch Live Cast. 79 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:57.879 I'm Mick Welcome back to the live cast. 80 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:00.720 Thank you, Wade. Good to be here. 81 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:03.240 It's great to have you on. Thank you for taking 82 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.720 time to be on today's show. I'm really glad that 83 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.480 we could put together show talking about vere Gania, and 84 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:12.000 I know you have a lot to say about him. 85 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.279 I also want to introduce our second guest, and that 86 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:18.439 is sad Buster Kenny J who worked for vern Gania 87 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.199 for so many years. Kenny is this you? Are you there? 88 00:05:22.439 --> 00:05:25.160 Yeah? I'm there, de Wayne Kenny. 89 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:27.959 Thank you, I'm doing great. Thank you for taking time 90 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:29.920 away from busting sod to join us here on the 91 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:37.000 show today. Oh no, I appreciate it absolutely well. I 92 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.720 talked about what vern gan you meant to me on 93 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:44.720 Tuesdays lodcast. I'm not going to repeat it in detail today. 94 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.240 The first wrestling show I ever went to was Vern's retirement, 95 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.800 so I came in as a fan at the end 96 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:54.000 of vern Gania's reign as a full time wrestler. I 97 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:56.399 had watched him on TV for years, but the first 98 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.600 show I got to talk to was May of nineteen 99 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.279 eighty one, the retirement match seventeen thousand plus sold out 100 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.639 crowd against Nick Bockwinkle. And of course, you know he 101 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:08.240 made a few coming out of retirement matches. But Kenny, 102 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:13.639 you obviously knew Vern as a wrestler, as an employee 103 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:17.040 and as a friend. I'd love for you first to 104 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:20.199 talk a little bit

about your background with Vern Gania 105 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.839 and how you first met him, and how you ended 106 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:24.879 up on television as a wrestler. 107 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:30.920 Well, you know, I used to wrestle in Chicago, Milwaukee. 108 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:33.120 Then I went to the Army and then I came 109 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:37.399 out of the Army and a sixty two. Then I 110 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:40.920 came back down home to Minneapolis, and then I got 111 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:45.360 the girasfal with d Wally Carbo was a promoter, and 112 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:48.120 then that's where how he got started. And I'm pretty 113 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.920 sure Vern was there, you know. And you know, Vern 114 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:56.839 was a great, great wrestler, and he loved wrestling, and 115 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:59.680 he you know, and he was a great, great promoter. 116 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:04.079 I can't take anything away from the guy, and I really, 117 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:05.759 really I'm gonna miss him. 118 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:08.399 When is the last time that you had a chance 119 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:09.079 to talk to Erner? 120 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:14.560 See Vern, Well, we did a deal here at a 121 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:19.959 place here in on Chicago Avenue forty six, the Beatos 122 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:24.920 when they redid the wrestling movie. Yes, and Verne was there. 123 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:28.439 This was probably five years ago or so, you know what. 124 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:31.000 And he was in real good shape and I got 125 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:32.879 to talk to him and I got to shake his 126 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:36.160 hand and it was the most wonderful, wonderful thing I 127 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.199 ever did, you know, So you know, I'll never forget 128 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:41.639 that moment in my life. 129 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:45.240 Kenny. We had Greg Gania on this show on that day, 130 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:46.800 and I actually think it was a little over three 131 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.360 years ago, maybe three and a half years ago. Okay, 132 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:51.360 let that happen because I had to ask my mom 133 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:56.639 because my mom went to it and Mick, I really yes, 134 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:59.480 she went to it. And I want to bring Mick 135 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:01.879 into the country on this because I don't know how 136 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.519 many people. I don't know how many public appearances Mick 137 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:08.680 Vern made after that date, if any, I don't think 138 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:11.839 he necessarily made any. And my mom had bought a 139 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:15.319 picture of Vern and got his autograph, you know, she thought, 140 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:19.759 you know, fun thing to do. And my mom may 141 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:22.800 have the honor Mick

and Jay of being the last 142 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.079 woman that Vern Gania hit on at a at a 143 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:35.480 celebrity appearance. He said she was pretty and his hand 144 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:39.600 may have rushed her. So talking to earlier today about 145 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.200 that and it was a fond memory. Yeah, Mick carsh 146 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.159 you you grew up watching vern Gania. And and by 147 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.639 the way, Mick and Kenny, feel free to make this 148 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:51.399 a conversation, not an interview. Feel free to interrupt me, 149 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:53.360 interrupt you know. We'll just kind of make this free 150 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:55.919 flooring see where it takes us. By the way, do 151 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.200 invite callers to call if you want to share some 152 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:01.000 verrn Gani memories or you have a quest question. Our 153 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:04.960 phone number is six four six seven nine eight two eight. 154 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:10.399 That's six four, six seven nine eight two eight. Mick, 155 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:12.279 I want to set the stage a little bit also 156 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:15.960 with you starting off as a fan of the AWA 157 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.120 and watching vern Gania. I have said, but it's only 158 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.639 secondhand because I wasn't born when Vern became a headliner 159 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.320 and a crossover mainstream star here in the Upper Midwest 160 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:30.960 based out of Minnesota. Mostly Mick talk about exactly what 161 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.759 Vern meant to this community in his home base in 162 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:37.559 Minneapolis Saint Paul and brought in it also and talk 163 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.919 about how he compares to wrestlers since then in terms 164 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.759 of that mainstream appeal and how he was appreciated by 165 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:47.240 the community or seen by the community. 166 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:51.320 You know, it's really interesting, Wade, if you don't know 167 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:54.639 the background of vern Gania and know him just as 168 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:58.360 a wrestler, you have no idea the impact that this 169 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.960 guy had. Because remember, we didn't have major league sports 170 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.399 in the Twin Cities till nineteen sixty one, the Twins 171 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:08.799 and the Vikings, and because of that, professional wrestling, you know, 172 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:11.639 once twice a week was really the big deal around 173 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:16.080 here besides our minor league baseball teams, and Vergana was 174 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.639 the guy. And you know, even I would say up 175 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:25.480 through the late sixties early seventies for not only a 176 00:10:25.559

--> 00:10:29.840 television personality, but he really transcended that especially in the 177 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.240 state of Minnesota. I mean, this guy hobnobbed with governors 178 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.240 and senators and vice presidents, and he was as big 179 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:40.919 a celebrity, I think as anybody. And then you know, 180 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:44.840 when you add to that his community involvement and his 181 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:49.799 charitable work at golf functions and tennis celebrity events and 182 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:52.120 so on and so forth, and of course his dedication 183 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.480 to the University of Minnesota. It's a shame that the 184 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.000 modern day wrestling fan probably just doesn't have a clue 185 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.360 how big Vern was in this state and especially in 186 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:06.360 the Twin Cities. But just phenomenal. I mean, his celebrity 187 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:08.080 just transcended everything. 188 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:12.519 You can support us on Patreon and get these shows 189 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:15.360 with ads and plugs remove, the weight Keller Prosing podcast, 190 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.240 Weight Keller Prosing post shows and the PW Torch daily 191 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:21.320 cast throughout the week with ads and plugs remove, plus 192 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.799 a few bonus VIP shows throughout the month for just 193 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:26.840 four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Check it 194 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:31.879 out patreon dot com slash PW Torch vip. That's Patreon 195 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.799 dot com slash PW torch vip and you can also 196 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:38.480 upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. 197 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:45.799 Kenny same Nick, Can he talk about that too? What 198 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:49.360 was it like when you were around verne Gania From 199 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.559 from a standpoint of the charisma that he had and 200 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:59.399 the kind of country club atmosphere that that he was 201 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:03.320 was recognized it, I mean, he was among the elite 202 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:06.320 celebrities in this community. He played football with Bud Grant, 203 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:10.360 he governor Boschwitz attended a w A shows in the 204 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.000 front row. I mean, you could go on and on. 205 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:15.159 Can he talk about that? Talk about what Vern, the 206 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.879 five Vern gave off when he was in the public. 207 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:23.720 Well, I'll tell you one thing. He was a great guy. 208 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.120 He was and he loved wrestling, and he lived for 209 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:31.240 wrestling because he did it, you know, after he got 210 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:34.480 out of college and went to the Olympics and everything 211 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:39.159 he did. He did everything, and and he treated his 212 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:43.240 wrestled well. You know when he got into the promoting 213 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:47.279 and he treated me so well that I'll never forget it. 214 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:49.879 You know. He he got me into the six man 215 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:54.000 tag team with him and gresured me against Larry Henning 216 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:57.519 and Hardy Rays and Markoff, you know, and he got 217 00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:01.320 me in Japan and he got me with Muhammad Ali. 218 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:04.159 You know, I can never I'll never forget the guy, 219 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.759 you know, because he he he really helped me, you know, 220 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:14.080 as Ah. He was a great guy and I'll never 221 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:14.720 forget him. 222 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.519 And Kenny talk about that dynamic between Vern and his 223 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.480 business partner and promoting partner, Wally Carbo, those two from 224 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:24.960 everything that I've read and and and just being around 225 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.559 them a little bit in my years relative to you. 226 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:28.240 Uh. 227 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:30.759 And and the stories I've heard, the dynamic between them 228 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:33.080 had there have to be some fun stories there. 229 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:37.639 Well, they got along real good, you know. I mean 230 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:42.279 when they booked the show, I guess they they they 231 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:46.000 did it together. And you know, I mean it took 232 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.039 a lot of courage, and it took a lot of 233 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.559 pre chrisma, you know, to make a match, you know. 234 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.799 I mean it's just like football. You know, you can't 235 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.159 just put a couple of teams together. You gotta you 236 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:03.080 gotta have them inins, you know. So it's it's it's 237 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.840 all sports is all the same, you know. You gotta 238 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:08.759 you gotta work together, and you gotta you gotta set 239 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:11.679 up the managers, you know, and you gotta set up 240 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.639 the football team. So so they did a great job. 241 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.720 And yeah, and you could tell back in the sixty seventies, 242 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.320 eighties the rest, Yes, you know that. 243 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:25.120 What was the last thing you said, Kenny, our phone 244 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.120 connection went out just for two seconds? 245 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.320 Yeah? 246 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.480 Okay, well let let me let me go ahead, and 247 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.320 and and shift to Mick two. Uh Mick

from your 248 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.080 watching vern on television and also experiencing what what he 249 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.639 meant and how he uh came across in the community. 250 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:48.000 Are there other How does that compare to the rock 251 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:53.200 hul Cogan, Steve Austin, Heck Bruno, Sammartino like talk about 252 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.519 the difference at and how wrestling was perceived. Then, because Mick, 253 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.679 you are so you are so valuable to a show 254 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:02.000 like this as we we obviously cover current day wrestling 255 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:04.639 weekend and week out and half for years and decades, 256 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:07.799 but make you have followed wrestling so long that you're 257 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:11.960 able to provide that and forgive me for you know, uh, 258 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:13.840 tell you about how long you've been a fan, but 259 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:15.200 you have been. 260 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:19.080 Here there you have Yeah, yeah. 261 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.759 You have seen as a fan and as a participant 262 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.600 as an observer, so many airs of wrestling and so 263 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:27.360 many changes. You're so valuable in that way. How yeah, 264 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.360 is Vern different in terms of how he's perceived compared 265 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.919 to other top wrestlers since hit his day? 266 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:36.360 You know, it's a really interesting wade because you remember, 267 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:38.840 you know again you're going back to the fifties and 268 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.159 the sixties and you're going back to the k Faber 269 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.799 and everything else. So much has changed. I mean, the 270 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:47.159 way wrestlers are looked at and promoters are looked at 271 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.840 back in the day when you have the mystique, I mean, 272 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.159 I mean vern Vern was the real deal and and 273 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.919 he was like Mark Rosen on w CCO TV here 274 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:02.159 locally called him the Saturday Night Superman. So the perception 275 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:05.240 of Vern here in the state of Minnesota, I mean, 276 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:07.919 he was a god. I mean, he really was. He's 277 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.559 right up there with Fran Tarkenton and Harmon Kilbrew and 278 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.639 all these guys. And it kind of evolved a little bit. 279 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.720 And you know, needless to say, as wrestling changed in 280 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:20.600 the eighties, all of a sudden, the perception of a 281 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:25.080 wrestling promoter and the Vince McMahon's of the world and 282 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.039 the dusty Roads, everybody is talking about the behind

scenes 283 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.159 stuff and I don't know that you know, it may 284 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.600 be the luster wore off a little bit, you know, 285 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.080 And as more and more stories kind of came to 286 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:40.000 light about, you know, Verne's business dealings with the guys 287 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:42.840 and so on and so forth, it changed a little bit. 288 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.759 The perception of Verne Gania as kind of a hard ass, 289 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:49.600 and he was and he was. He was a perfectionist 290 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:53.080 and he did it his way. So, you know, in 291 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.440 terms of how he was perceived, Yeah, that changed a 292 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.279 little bit, But again I keep going back to the 293 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.240 same thing. You really had to experience it, you had 294 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.200 to live through it to know. Back in the day, 295 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.799 this guy was like Sir Lancelot around here. I mean 296 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:12.799 he was he could walk on water, and that's the 297 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:16.599 real deal. So I think the perception in the state 298 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:19.440 of Minnesota was probably different than it was on a 299 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:24.920 national scale wave because on the national level, I think 300 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.000 people you know, looked at vern again as the Vince McMahon, 301 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.839 the Bob Beigel, the Jim Crockett, whatever, you know, whatever 302 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.599 the case may be. Here in the state of Minnesota, 303 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.839 at least earlier on, they didn't perceive him that way. 304 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:41.039 So I think the era, the eras in professional wrestling 305 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.480 changed the perception of Verne Ganya. 306 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:49.720 Kenny, you wrestled for Verne for thirty years and and 307 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.440 like you said, I mean he gave you so many opportunities. 308 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:55.319 You were very loyal to him. He was very loyal 309 00:17:55.359 --> 00:18:00.799 to you the over the years. How did he did 310 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:05.160 vern change as he gained more power, gained more riches, 311 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:07.119 he did, he was very wealth He did very well 312 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:10.400 for himself as a promoter. How did you perceive he 313 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:14.480 his he changed, and also as he became older than 314 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:16.359 a lot of the talent working for him. Although there's 315 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:17.920 a few jokes in there about the a W eight 316 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:20.200 at the end, you know, everyone kind of stuck together 317 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:22.839 till the end. But as as he aged and that 318 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.039 and younger

wrestlers started coming up. In fact, as an aside, 319 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:29.480 I mean, my my experiences with Vern, just in the 320 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.319 late eighties being around him, were talking about you know, 321 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.440 the rockers, Sean Michaels, Marty Janetti. Oh, those punk kids, 322 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.119 they don't know, they don't appreciate what opportunity I geve, Yeah, 323 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.680 you know that kind of thing. So how did can 324 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.279 he talk to me about the how you saw Vern 325 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:46.400 change as he as he moved from his twenties to 326 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.240 his thirties, to his forties to his fifties. 327 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.000 Well, I don't think he he has really changed because 328 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.359 he was a great wrestler all the time, and I 329 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.319 wrestled him many times and we had a great science 330 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:03.400 wrestling match. You know, I mean, but I'm talking you know, 331 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.960 you're talking about New York Buddy Rogers and that they're 332 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:13.119 all great professional wrestlers, and it all all goes down 333 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.640 to from Vern to all the way there in New York, 334 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:20.640 you know, and uh, you know Buddy Rogers, and then 335 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:25.000 there was you know, the Bobo Brazil and I mean 336 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:30.640 these guys and pat you know, oh god louts and 337 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.920 that they were all great professional wrestlers, and it all 338 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:38.759 led to the same thing. It was wrestling, and it 339 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:43.519 was professional wrestling, and and it was the same, you know, 340 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:48.240 until Vince McMahon took over, you know, but it was 341 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:53.240 I'm the sixty seventy eighties. I'll never never forget them, 342 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.960 and vern gone here was there all the time, and 343 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.160 I'll never forget them. 344 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.640 I yeah, absolutely, yeah. 345 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:04.920 I was just going to jump in here. And from 346 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.599 my perception way and what's really interesting about this, you know, 347 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:10.599 wait with all the end you and I have talked 348 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.400 about this before. The perception that you know, Mickhrishon is 349 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:17.200 former you work for the AWA. Well, really my TV 350 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.240 experience for the aw A was about six months. That 351 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.759 was it in the in the scheme of things, you know, 352 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.160 And I've been been a fan of it for you know, 353 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.720 fifty plus years, and I did publicity for Vernon Wally 354 00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:30.960 and so on and so forth. I think what you're 355 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:35.279 asking is, maybe I don't know from an emotional standpoint, 356 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.039 maybe from a business standpoint, How did burn't change as 357 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.759 time was going on and as things were changing. If 358 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.119 that's you know, that's the perception that I'm getting the 359 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.400 way that I saw it, And this is probably from 360 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:57.000 oh Man maybe the early seventies on. Things really started 361 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:02.720 to change even back then because in the early WTCNTV 362 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.920 of course hosted the AWA All Star Wrestling Network to 363 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:12.839 syndicate a TV. They were owned by Chris Kraft, and 364 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:15.720 in the early seventies, I want to say seventy three, 365 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:21.359 maybe seventy four, the station was changed ownership and Metro 366 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.039 Media TV bought them out, and they weren't really big 367 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:27.119 fans of professional wrestling. He was kind of a necessary 368 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.759 evil to them. And when they first made that change, 369 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.240 I don't know if they didn't like vern if they 370 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:35.920 were button heads, or what the situation may have been, 371 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.880 but because of that, they kind of moved the AWA 372 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:42.640 television show all over the board, at least in the 373 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.799 Minneapolis market. I'm talking in terms of when it aired, 374 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:50.279 So that pissed Verner off a little bit. At the 375 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:53.640 same time, he released the original movie The Wrestler, which 376 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.880 had an initial great response and then totally petered out. 377 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.720 So there was some stress there, you know, again going 378 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.799 back to the early seventies, and at the same time 379 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:09.680 that stress started to trickle down to Wally Carbos. So 380 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:14.119 then Vernon Wally kind of had this adversarial relationship a 381 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.720 little bit, and vern became you know, on television, the 382 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:21.279 charisma you can't argue with it. I mean, he was 383 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:24.000 just a phenomenal guy and if you caught Vernon a 384 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:27.119 good mood, nobody better. I mean, he was just a 385 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:29.880 gem of a guy. But the stress was starting to 386 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.559 get to him. And I think what happened from the 387 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:36.400 seventies right on through the end,

systematically things started to 388 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:38.759 kind of chip away at Burn's armor a little bit. 389 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:41.640 And I don't know if hostile is the right word, 390 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:45.000 but he he became more protective. I think he became 391 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:49.880 more defensive of his product, and I think he became 392 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.759 just well, he was always a task master, Like I said, 393 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.480 he was always a perfectionist with the boys, but I 394 00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:59.440 think he just started to have a little bit of 395 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:02.200 an edge to them, and sometimes you could feel it. 396 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.680 You didn't see it on television, but if you were 397 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:07.359 in the background, you saw it. You felt it, the 398 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:10.920 boys talked about it, and you know it was, I 399 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.599 guess kind of a slow erosion of the empire if 400 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:15.759 that makes any sense. 401 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.839 Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts, 402 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:24.119 will come join me Alan farrel Over in the Progress 403 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.759 Paradise at peterbood Torch VIP as we mask on the 404 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.480 bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the 405 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.440 great matches and shows from around the world, be it 406 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.960 the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place 407 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:40.759 for wrestlings past and the paradise too, and we've done 408 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.799 fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series 409 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:47.839 celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and our 410 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.160 Eye was there when shows where our guests will join 411 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.599 me to talk about a classic bout that they were 412 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.000 in attendance for. We love variety and you can expect 413 00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.240 lots of it at the Pro wrest Paradise. Detailed pwe 414 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:02.680 Torch va IP subscription information on a list of all 415 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.559 the VIP benefits is available at peterbrew Torch vip info 416 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:10.599 dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with 417 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:14.759 popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android. Devices, or you 418 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.519 can stream them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site. 419 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:23.400 See you in the Paradise, Mick. 420 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.680 I'm fascinated by Verne because I got to see the 421 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.039 tail end of Verne as a public fit. Weh, I 422 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:30.839 shouldn't they tail end? It was a long stretch of time, 423 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.039 but relative to what you experienced, Mick and Kenny, as 424 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.680 long as you knew him, I got to experience it 425 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:40.240 the post retirement nears mostly as an adult. I was 426 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:43.039 just a kid when he was a wrestler, and the 427 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:46.759 public figure when he'd do the WCCO radio appearances, just 428 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:53.000 an institution am station still around. He was amazing. I 429 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.680 mean I still did this day. I'm not sure that 430 00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:01.640 there's a more charismatic sports figure, more unassuming, arming, charismatic, 431 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:05.960 nice guy public figure than Veri Ganya. But boy did 432 00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:08.319 I see the other side of it. I mean I 433 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:09.839 and I mean not a lot, but enough, and I 434 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.680 heard stories of it, and and I guess my question 435 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:14.119 first to you, Mick, and I'm kind of curious with 436 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:18.000 Kenny too, But man, do you, uh, Mick, do you 437 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.960 think that vern was phony when he was being nice 438 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:26.720 in public? Or was it more complicated than that, and 439 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.799 and he's he deserves a more nuanced explanation, which is 440 00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:34.400 he enjoyed being a public figure in a celebrity, but 441 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:37.680 behind the scenes he just there. We all have our moods, 442 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:40.119 we all have our sides, to our to our personalities. 443 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:42.519 When the when the cameras were off, he kind of 444 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:44.359 let loose. Eric Bischoff one time told me, you know, 445 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.640 Terry Taylor was his whipping boy because he had so 446 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:48.559 much stress, and he knew he could get away with it, 447 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:51.200 and he knew Terry could take it. And so during 448 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:53.759 the Nitro years for WW, Eric would just take it 449 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.680 out on on on Terry Taylor. But publicly, you know, 450 00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:58.720 Eric couldn't do that in front of everybody or in 451 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:02.599 public as much. Vern certainly had a better public perception 452 00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:06.079 than Eric did. But a long question short, Mick, do 453 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.960 you think he was phony when he's being nice or 454 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:11.039 did he just have a range of moods and personalities 455 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.640 during that from say the early seventies through the early 456 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.400 nineties when he kind of faded from the limelight. 457 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:19.960 I don't think he was phony when he was being 458

00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:23.599 nice weight I think, and you know, people have talked 459 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.359 about this in the business. If you got Vern away 460 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.839 from the stress of the wrestling business. He was phenomenal. 461 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.240 And you know, you talk about, you know, probably the 462 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.400 most charismatic guy ever. I couldn't agree more. He had 463 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:38.920 that vern gany you smile, and I mean this guy 464 00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:43.119 could disarm anybody. And he walked into a room and 465 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:48.039 the way he carried himself again, just a genuinely nice guy. 466 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.119 And I think, I don't think this is really strange 467 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:53.640 in the business world weight. I think there's a lot 468 00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:57.359 of people like that, especially high level executives. You know, 469 00:26:57.400 --> 00:26:59.000 they get out in public, you get him out of 470 00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:01.920 the Ivory Tower, and they're great. But when you get 471 00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:05.599 them back, you know, in that in that realm where 472 00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:08.319 they've got the you know, the dollars and cents and 473 00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:11.839 the calculators and you know, everything else, and in front 474 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.880 of them, it becomes a different story. And again you 475 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:19.240 you add to that the stress of what was going 476 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:24.839 on around Vern at the time. He had never experienced 477 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.920 anything like he did when the WWF started to, you know, infiltrate. 478 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:33.279 I mean, this is this was his turf. The aw 479 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:36.200 A was it. That's all he knew, That's all we knew, 480 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:39.240 And all of a sudden, you know, it's it's it's 481 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:42.960 starting to dismantle. So you had all this stress and 482 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.839 it's what do I do now? And everything became really 483 00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:51.119 really difficult. So you know, to your original point, was 484 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:55.160 he phony when he was smiling and shaking hands in public? 485 00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:59.119 Absolutely not. I think that was the real Vern Ganya. 486 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:01.960 I just feel feel like, you know, when when the 487 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.079 wheels started to fall off, it got to be an 488 00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:08.680 awful lot and you know he reacted that way, and 489 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:10.880 you may have a point, you know, I mean, and again, 490 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:13.319 I don't think this is anything strange. I think, you know, 491 00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:16.160 if you're a business owner, there's always that one or 492 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:19.440 two people in the

office, the grunts or whoever it is, 493 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:22.279 however you perceive them, they're going to take the heat 494 00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:24.480 for the things that are going on around you. And 495 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.240 what an interesting point, you know I've talked about, you know, 496 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:31.240 the incident between Vern and I and Las Vegas. You know, 497 00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:33.759 when he screamed and yelled at me and over something 498 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.319 that you know, was really minimal. And when I talked 499 00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:39.599 to Nick Bockwinkle about it, and Nick was on his 500 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:41.720 way to New York, so he really didn't care. But 501 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.039 when I asked sick about it. He just said, you know, 502 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.240 you got to understand Vern's not yelling at you. You know, 503 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:50.839 he said, Jack Lands and I are probably the only 504 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.720 two guys at Verne hasn't yelled at in the last 505 00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:56.880 ten years. It's because of everything that was going on 506 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:00.480 around him. So I think on the overall was Vern 507 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.839 Gania nice guy. Absolutely. I think he was a great guy. 508 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:07.319 I think his public persona and his charity work and 509 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.039 everything else was the real Vern Gania. Behind the scenes, 510 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.319 the stress would get to him. That's my perception of 511 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:16.680 it from a distance. Again, I only worked with him, 512 00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:18.519 you know, hand in hand for a short time. 513 00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:23.920 Kenny, again to you. Vern starred in the Wrestler Movie. 514 00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.359 Some people point to that as a time frame around 515 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:33.000 which he went from being more liked to more scrutinized 516 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:36.880 by wrestlers and his colleagues and fellow promoters. Even and 517 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.960 by the eighties, I mean, I heard really negative things 518 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.480 about Vern within the industry. It sounds like you got 519 00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:49.160 to see a more disarming version of Vern, somebody who 520 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:53.039 when he was around you, was relaxed and just kind 521 00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:54.960 of appreciated what you were able to do for him 522 00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.079 in the ring. One of the things you were known for. 523 00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.160 And I know Harley Race complimented you for this, Kenny 524 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:03.400 Is you made your opponents look like a million bucks 525 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:05.960 in that ring and it sounds like that. I just 526 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.440 always appreciated that about you. 527 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.960 Well yeah, and you know, like I said, I wrestle 528 00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:16.599 Vern many times and we had a great matters, you know. 529 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:21.839 I mean, he cracked my ribs once, but it was 530 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:24.720 I don't know if it was accident, but you know, 531 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.720 but I really, uh, you know, I still appreciated the guy. 532 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:34.119 And like I say, he was a promoter and he's 533 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.039 gonna book you, you know, and if he's if you 534 00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.640 don't like you, he's not gonna book you. You know. 535 00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:44.440 So it's it's uh, it's just scratch my back or 536 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.519 scratch your back or something, you know. But I love 537 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.759 the guy, you know, and I'll never you know. You know. 538 00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:53.920 It's like I like the crusher, I like back doll, 539 00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:57.599 you know. I I wrestle the ball and I loved 540 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.359 them all, you know. I mean, I don't care they 541 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:02.720 they help me in my better hitting every day. So 542 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:06.160 and uh, Mitch Cards help me. So you know, I 543 00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:11.880 just I just appreciate all the guys that helped me. 544 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.359 Absolutely. We're about to go to a commercial break. Why 545 00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.119 listened to commercial breaks when you can go VIP and 546 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.880 experience our shows with the ads and plugs removed. PW 547 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:25.759 torch dot com slash go VP. That's PW torch dot 548 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:28.599 com slash go VIP for full details, or go to 549 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:32.559 Patreon Patreon dot com slash PW Torch. VIP rate start 550 00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:34.720 as low as four dollars in ninety nine cents to 551 00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:37.680 remove the ads and plugs through Patreon. Full VIP membership 552 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.000 starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to treat 553 00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:43.279 yourself to a streamlined, ad and plug free listening experience 554 00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:48.279 with a VIP or Patreon membership. Kenny, I, I didn't 555 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:49.720 have a chance to talk to you before the show, 556 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:52.319 but if you have to go, you let me know. 557 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:54.319 If not, would be happy to have you stick around 558 00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:56.000 too for more of the show, but I don't want 559 00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:59.039 to know. Yeah, time, okay, great, excellent, Yeah, I'm very 560 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:02.079 good again. If you just joining a sadbuster. Kenny J 561 00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:06.599 for three decades a fixture of AWA Television, joining us 562 00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.279 today on the PW Torch Live cast.

You can find 563 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:13.119 this show at PW Torch livecast dot com or on 564 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.400 five days a week. Tomorrow, Torch senior columnist Bruce Mitchell 565 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.119 and the Eastcoastcast dot COM's Travis Bryant will be hosting 566 00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:24.319 at starting at seven Eastern. That's a new Friday timeslot 567 00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:28.240 and the new Friday duo who hosts this show. One 568 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.160 quick personal note, business note sort of If you didn't yet, 569 00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:35.559 you can hear me on the Steve Austin Show this week, 570 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:40.039 spending nearly two hours with Steve talking about Sunday's WWE 571 00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:42.920 Extreme Rules pay per view. If you want incentive to 572 00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.119 listen to it, go on to my twitter feed. The 573 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.480 feedback has been tremendous, as it usually is. I've been 574 00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:50.759 doing the post pay per view shows with Steve Austin 575 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:54.400 every month for a while now, and you can check 576 00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:56.440 that out on my twitter feed. Get some reviews of 577 00:32:56.440 --> 00:33:00.839 that at the Wade Keller. That is at the Wade Keller. 578 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:04.119 But yeah, about an hour, fifteen minutes. It went live 579 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.319 on Tuesday on iTunes and over at podcast one. That 580 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.440 is a Steve Austin show, not Unleashed, not the explicit version, 581 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.720 but the PG family friendly version. Almost two hours reviewing 582 00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:17.160 that show Mick Harsh also is joining me, the former 583 00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:22.240 president of the Nick Bockwinkle Fan Club and former AWA announcer, 584 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:26.720 longtime independent wrestling announcer still active today. Mick, I want 585 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:29.519 to give you a chance here to talk about what 586 00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:32.839 you've got coming up where people can hear you announcing 587 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:35.519 and some I know you're a huge, huge supporter of 588 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:36.920 the indie wrestling scene, and I'd like to give you 589 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:37.680 a chance to plug that. 590 00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:42.720 I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean that's since the demise 591 00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.440 of the AWA, it's been the independent and wrestling scene 592 00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:47.319 in the state of Minnesota wayde you know that. I 593 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.720 mean so many different promotions. The one that I'm involved 594 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:53.480 with right now, very proud of it, of course, Steel 595 00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:57.640 Domain Wrestling and promoter Ed Hallier going on about sixteen 596 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:01.359 seventeen years now, Very very proud of the fact that, 597 00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:05.160 you know, some of the alumni, Adam Pierce, CM Punk, 598 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:10.559 Colt Cabana A Steel. I mean, it's just it's just 599 00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:13.920 Boston areas. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a great alumni. 600 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:17.519 I mean, Sean Davari it's really really proud of it. 601 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.639 And we're running shows about every five six weeks at 602 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:24.840 the Richfield American Legion just outside of Minneapolis. And then 603 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:27.360 once a year we do a big show at the 604 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.519 Hopkins Pavilion and that'll be coming up in July. So 605 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:34.159 very very proud of what we're doing there. So that 606 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:38.000 that keeps me busy. And you know, I'm on Facebook 607 00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:40.920 twenty four to seven. You know, i might sleep for 608 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:42.920 ten minutes, but then I'm back on there. And of 609 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:46.119 course I've got a I got a wrestling fan page, 610 00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:50.039 typically old school wrestling. It's it's kind of the emphasis 611 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:54.360 called Slick Mix Wrestling fan page of all things and 612 00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:58.079 old time wrestling. So you get a chance to check 613 00:34:58.119 --> 00:35:01.119 that out. And yeah, I'm still keeping my name out there. 614 00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:03.239 I'm not waiting for that call from Vince anymore. I 615 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:06.639 have a feeling that probably isn't going to happen. So 616 00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:10.920 I'm not by the jellophone. But you know, I wait, 617 00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:12.119 I'd rather talk to you. 618 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.039 You know what I'm saying, Well, thank you, I appreciate 619 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.599 that very much. Our phone number he if you want 620 00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:20.880 to give us a call six four six seven nine 621 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:24.880 eight two eight. That's six four six seven two one 622 00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:27.920 ninety eight twenty eight. We're taking your phone calls if 623 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:29.480 you want to talk about vern Gania. Let's go to 624 00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.039 our first caller of the day, area code six five zero, 625 00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:34.639 six five zero. Thank you for calling and holding. Please 626 00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:36.079 state your name in the city you're calling. 627 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.960 From a lasternoon. Wait and Nick, this is Dante. I'm 628 00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:40.599 out in the San Francisco Bay Area and I thank 629 00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:41.760 you for your taking. 630 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:42.239 Up my call. 631 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:43.320 Great, thanks for calling me. 632 00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:47.480 I wanted to offer again my condolences on the passing

633 00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:50.320 of vern Gania. Quite a legend. I grew up out 634 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:51.840 here in the Bay Area. I'm in the Bay Area, 635 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.639 and I grew up as far back as the very 636 00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:57.559 late sixties and seventies with Ray Stevens, Pat Patterson and 637 00:35:57.599 --> 00:35:59.920 the great wrestlers out here. I wanted to offer some 638 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.079 quick Bay Bay Area perspectives on burn Gania and how 639 00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:05.920 much we appreciated him. First of all, if you go 640 00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:08.320 back to the first roy Shire card in March of 641 00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.199 nineteen sixty one, be weren't actually wrestled on that card, 642 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.960 So he was involved in the first Bay Area card 643 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:17.599 with roy Shire just before roy really exploded with the 644 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:21.199 Ray Stevens Pepper stor Mess feud. Moving up to nineteen 645 00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.960 eighty one, we were losing Shire's territory. He was building 646 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:27.920 out wrestling to Kansas City and then Florida, and the 647 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:32.079 cards were dissipating and he was slating out and suddenly 648 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:38.159 AWA appeared on our local television station. So we started 649 00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:41.039 getting cards in January of nineteen eighty one. And basically 650 00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.800 we weren't going to have rest live wrestling here. It 651 00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:45.440 was going to be the odds show and it was 652 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.760 going to be difficult to find. And thanks to Verne 653 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:51.000 bringing wrestling out here, you know, that gave us two 654 00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.679 or three years before the national fed started coming in 655 00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.960 WWF and then INWA. So I really appreciated that he 656 00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:01.920 did that. Another thing I'd want to ask you guys 657 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:05.679 for your comments, Hunt, wouldn't you make the argument that 658 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:10.480 Burned geographically was kind of the most national promotion at 659 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.079 the time, say by nineteen. 660 00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:14.880 Eighty one, Mick, you can attest that, and we can 661 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.559 talk to Kenny after that about all the cities he 662 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:19.079 wrestled in. Just when you look at a map mix 663 00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:21.079 of the territories, if you can google this, you know, 664 00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:25.199 wrestling wrestling territories nineteen seventies, Just google that, look at 665 00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.440 the images. I know they're up there. I've seen it before. 666 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:32.039 The AWA just covers the largest swath of land from Chicago 667 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:35.079 to Denver and then a leap to the San Francisco 668 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.800 Bay area. Mick, talk about that aspect of it. 669 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.519 You know, that's really interesting too, Wade, because I think 670 00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:45.039 the perception, and maybe it's because the wrestling magazines was 671 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.400 always of the Big three, the AWA was number three, 672 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:51.400 and that was never never right. I mean, they did 673 00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:54.239 have that much territory, They did cover that much ground, 674 00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:56.599 you know, all the way from the Bay Area, you know, 675 00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:01.760 of course in the San Francisco when Denver and Omaha, Milwaukee, Chicago, 676 00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:04.920 Green Bay, I mean up into Winnipeg. I mean, yeah, 677 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.719 they were. They were all over the place. And for 678 00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:10.960 some reason, you know, it was like Backwinkle was always 679 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:14.360 perceived as number three behind maybe your Backland or your 680 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:18.239 Hogan or your Rick Flair or whoever. That that absolutely 681 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:20.800 is is is not correct. I mean that that's the 682 00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:24.159 wrong perception. And you know, the caller alluded to, you know, 683 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:26.320 Vern going into the Bay area there and of course 684 00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:29.880 he was working with his old tag team partner and friend, 685 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.800 the late Leonamalini bringing some shows out to Oakland and 686 00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:37.280 in that area. Leo was helping to promote shows. So yeah, 687 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.760 I mean, there's no question about it. The AWA, the 688 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:44.519 scope of what they had was just incredible. And being 689 00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:49.079 an AWA guy as I am, I never could understand 690 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:53.239 why the perception was as it was that you got 691 00:38:53.679 --> 00:38:56.119 ww F and you got NW A O and by 692 00:38:56.159 --> 00:39:00.000 the way, you got AWA, because that is just ass backwards. 693 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.440 Well, and I'll interject too, you know, you're right, Mick, 694 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:04.960 that was how I saw the National Wrestling magazines. Also, 695 00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.639 we're kind of used to it here in Minnesota, you know, 696 00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:10.039 in a lot of ways in terms of the perception 697 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:12.800 of that being here in the Midwest. But the the 698 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:16.400 WWF or WWWF at the time was, you know, had 699 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:19.480 New York. It was the East Coast, a large part 700 00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.519 of the East Coast, So the national wrestling magazines based 701 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.360 largely out of

the East Coast would favor them New York, 702 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:28.079 Madison Square Garden. That's a big deal. And the NWA 703 00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:30.840 got an advantage over the AWA in the sense that 704 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:34.400 the AWA was a territory, a large one, but the 705 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:37.719 NWA was dozens of territories, or you know, more than 706 00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:41.000 a dozen major territories. And so just from a pure 707 00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:43.320 how many shows on a given weekend. Is the NWA 708 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:46.440 running well if you count all the NWA territories a 709 00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:49.480 lot more than the AWA. But as far as if 710 00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.679 you split off the NWA territories and treat them as 711 00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:57.199 individual territories, the AWA was, in many ways, at many times, 712 00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:01.159 by many metrics, the largest, and I know wrestlers made 713 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:05.440 great money working for the a w A. Kenny, talk 714 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:07.519 about your travels and the scope of a w A 715 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:10.679 and its growth during during those peak years. 716 00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:16.280 Well do you know I I I wasn't it like 717 00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:21.400 full time or or a big star like Blackway go 718 00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:26.039 over and got on Billy Robinson. But I did alright. 719 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:29.239 You know. I got to wrestle in Denver, I got 720 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:33.320 to wrestle Chicago. I got wrestled Green Bay, Milwaukee, and 721 00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:36.519 even thunder Bay. You know, I got around a lot, 722 00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:40.440 you know, But I had my business going. I was landscaping, 723 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.960 you know. So I wasn't in full time. But I'll 724 00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:49.119 tell you one thing. Anytime they needed me someplace, I 725 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.239 was capable, Kenny j and I would be there. 726 00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:56.760 Yep. All right. I want to go back to Dante 727 00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.159 see if he has any follow up for a discussion 728 00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:02.159 here with mccarshon, k remembering vern Ghania and the Awa 729 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:04.239 Dante anything else before we let you go? 730 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:06.920 Yeah, really quickly. Wait first, I came into the show late, 731 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.039 so I did not realize that Kenny Sawdbuster J was 732 00:41:10.039 --> 00:41:11.719 in the house. So I want to give a shout 733 00:41:11.719 --> 00:41:14.719 out Kenny, You're a great one as far as I'm. 734 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:16.960 Oh, thank god, but yeah, I'm. 735 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:18.920 Really sorry I had i'd come into the show late. 736 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:21.559 All this week, I've really really wanted to make it 737 00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:24.480 a priority to get onto these shows because I think 738 00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:27.719 this is the best show, and Wade and all your 739 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:30.000 all the fine guests you have are always going to 740 00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:32.880 offer the best perspective on the great career of vern Ghania. 741 00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.840 I'm going to throw in one more little quick comment 742 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.559 one of the questions, could you guys hear me out 743 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:40.159 and see what you thought of this? In nineteen eighty one, 744 00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:43.599 Ray Stevens and Pat Patterson were on the villain side 745 00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:47.360 of the dressing room in the ADWA However, Bay Area. 746 00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:52.320 There was no way that Verne could book them as 747 00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:54.400 villains or as heels. They were just weren't going to 748 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.119 get food. So I appreciated his a forethought in kind 749 00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:01.119 of going against the system and he bood Ray and 750 00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:04.199 Pat as complete babyfaces out here man. 751 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:04.679 Really. 752 00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:11.079 Yeah, even in the Marchadler werepended against Jerry Blackwell for 753 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:14.440 the first time I leave there was a mass where 754 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:17.280 Ray Stevens and the Crusher teamed up against Adonis Ventura, 755 00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:21.920 which we usual but out here as secretary. So I 756 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:24.440 applauded Burn for having the business sense. At the end 757 00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:26.440 of the day, you had to have the business sense, 758 00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:30.159 and yeah, the KFA part was a little different. So 759 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:33.280 thanks very all three of you. I appreciate very much 760 00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:34.320 your effort. 761 00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:36.000 Week appreciate that. 762 00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:45.360 In twenty twelve NXT transitioned into the developmental system and 763 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:48.760 ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP 764 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.079 podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly 765 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:55.639 look at this page in NXT's early history. 766 00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:59.679 Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks 767 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.400 nx Tea every Saturday as we go eight years back 768 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:05.159 to the day to track NXT's rising talents and why 769 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.320 they did or didn't work out, exclusively for PW Torch 770 00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:09.679 VIP members. 771 00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:16.960 Dante, before you go, what years were you most immersed 772 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.039 in following the AWA You've mentioned af years hearing the 773 00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.119 what's the range of years that you watched? 774 00:43:22.000 -->

00:43:24.320 I'm growing up. I always had read the magazine, so 775 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:27.079 I was aware of all the federations. But they first 776 00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:30.480 came to our UHS station number twenty in nineteen eighty 777 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:33.559 or nineteen eighty, let's say late nineteen eighty, and it 778 00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:36.440 was just great for us because the Shire Federation was 779 00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.320 burning out. They were booking out for they were having 780 00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:41.400 good cards, but they just weren't having enough of them 781 00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:44.559 and there weren't a stand base. The first card in 782 00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:47.239 Awa was January of nineteen eighty one. It was a 783 00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:51.519 Battle Royal and it was a big sellout. Mister Nomalini 784 00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.239 I used to see him wearing his black pins. Tried 785 00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:56.039 to we went up and talked to him on a 786 00:43:56.039 --> 00:43:59.840 few cases. He would always be in the arena. The 787 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.000 next two cards were both burn Gania defenses against Jerry Blackwell, 788 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:05.559 and so I just felt I was honored to have 789 00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:08.840 gotten to see burn resthel. You know, Jerry Blackwell of 790 00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:10.559 course wouldn't have been my first opponent. I would have 791 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:14.079 preferred to see a Gania backwinkle match, but you know, 792 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:15.800 just being able to get to see Vern come into 793 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.039 the ring and put the fifth up with the towel 794 00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:20.440 around his neck. You know, it was just really great. 795 00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:25.199 We followed them and went to the cards consistently from 796 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:28.840 eighty one to eighty four eight I mean all the 797 00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:32.079 way through great basically, but the cards were consistently about 798 00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:35.159 six to eight weeks from eighty one to eighty four, 799 00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:38.280 eighty five easily. Then it spread out a little bit more. 800 00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:40.559 They moved from Oakland to San Francisco as well. The 801 00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:42.599 sidebuster had to come out to San Francisco on one 802 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:44.800 occasion or for more, isn't that right? 803 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:51.039 Yeah? In the eighties, yeah, I'd say the yeah. 804 00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:51.719 From eighties on. 805 00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:56.519 My biggest career was sixty and it was sixty seventies 806 00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:00.480 in the later earlier eighties, you know what, that's when 807 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:03.880 I got hit hard with archarritis, you know, so I 808 00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:08.480 had to cancel a lot of matches. But then after 809 00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:11.159 that I made a big comeback, you know, I mean 810 00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:13.840 as far as the health goes, you know. But I 811 00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:19.000 I wrestled a lot after you know, even when vern 812 00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:22.199 was Awa was gone and they had a lot of 813 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:25.440 little shows and I did a lot of wrestling, you know. 814 00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:27.880 But now I am done. 815 00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:31.960 I took out my copy of The Wrestler just two 816 00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:34.199 nights ago, and I watched it once or twice over 817 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:36.760 really enjoyed it. It's a great movie. It'll always be 818 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:38.519 in my collection. And now I think I'm gonna have 819 00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:42.920 to go find my old VHS taps and spotatic and yeah. 820 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:45.880 Yeah, I talked to Vern one time. We went to 821 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.119 walk here about ten years ago before he had already 822 00:45:49.159 --> 00:45:51.440 gotten bad, and he said, kiddy, how come you weren't 823 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:54.280 under the movie Wrestler. I said, I don't know. You 824 00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.480 should have been on there. Yeah, well, I said, it's 825 00:45:57.559 --> 00:45:59.800 kind of late, but takes a lot. 826 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:03.280 Thank you, guys, Wade. I was also at AWA Superclass 827 00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:06.119 three where mister Hennig won his AWA title. 828 00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:06.960 Oh very cool. 829 00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:10.079 Really Yeah, So yeah, I've basically I've grown up with 830 00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:13.599 wrestling and I've basically been to every last event are 831 00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:17.159 in the Sampa Scoobay area over probably forty or so years. 832 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:20.039 I'm dating myself a bit, but hey, thank you very 833 00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:21.800 much all of you for what you do. I appreciate 834 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:23.760 the time and being able to expound. 835 00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:28.760 Thanks Dante, that's great. I'm really glad he called Mick. Mick, 836 00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:32.199 I knew when a WA watching here in Minneapolis Saint Paul, 837 00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.280 we talk about going to San Francisco, like as a fan, 838 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:37.480 that made me think, Wow, the a w A is 839 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:39.840 big time. It's Vern's not just the Minneapolis champion or 840 00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:42.800 the Saint Pold champion. Long it really gave the impression 841 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:47.639 that the AWA was was big time. What did what 842 00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:51.960 how did the perception of the AWA change for you 843 00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:55.679 over the years as you learned more about the larger 844 00:46:55.719 --> 00:46:59.079 wrestling scene nationally and internationally, in vern Ganya's place in 845 00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:01.800 it and what is in kind of

stepping back for 846 00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:06.039 a minute, also the big picture legacy of vern Gania. 847 00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:09.360 I always say it's kind of a shame that the 848 00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:13.239 Monday Night War ro versus nitro Ted Turner buying out NWA, 849 00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:15.719 the top promoter Jim Crockett Junior at the time changing 850 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:18.599 the name to ww the lineage of the NWA because 851 00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.800 of WCW and WWF buying them out, and of course 852 00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.760 the WWF as the winners in the last man standing, 853 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:27.920 so to speak, the AWA gets short, short changed in 854 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:32.440 terms of historical recognition, but it is as significant as 855 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:36.079 any territory during the sixties and seventies, so kind of 856 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:41.159 where's vern Gania's placement as a major star having headlined 857 00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:44.360 in so many different cities and for so long with 858 00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:45.599 such success. 859 00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:50.159 The reality is wade. I think it depends on who 860 00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:52.960 you talk to, And sad to say, a lot of 861 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.480 people don't remember. Their perception of verne Gania is from 862 00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:01.239 the nineteen eighties on. I mean, and it's hard. You know, 863 00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:03.840 we're talking thirty five years ago, so it really is 864 00:48:03.880 --> 00:48:07.719 a generation. But the people who even watched some of 865 00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:10.840 the vern Ganya youtubes, and I know Dante was talking 866 00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:14.880 about Nick Bockwinkle and Vern even then, you know, Vern's 867 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:18.679 fifty years old plus. And when Vern lost the title 868 00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:23.480 to Backwinkle in nineteen eighty one or in nineteen seventy five, 869 00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:27.880 Verna is already forty nine years old. So his place 870 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.360 in wrestling, I think it depends on who you talk to. 871 00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:34.639 Somebody like me, somebody like George Shire. I know that 872 00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:38.920 vern Gania is absolutely one of the real, honest to 873 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:42.159 god of legends in wrestling, and he should be noted 874 00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:45.400 as such. I mean, long before they were at the 875 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:50.239 Saint Paul Civic Center, your fifty sixty seventies whatever, anybody 876 00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:53.800 we talked about this before anybody who was anybody came 877 00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:58.400 through the AWA territory, especially from nineteen sixty on, and 878 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:00.480 you think of all the guys that burned trained and 879 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:02.840 they went on to you know, become great, great stars. 880 00:49:03.239 -->

00:49:07.159 So in the scheme of things, vern Ganya was a pioneer, 881 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.800 you know, on the old Dumont network in Chicago. He 882 00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:14.280 was one of the first nationally known wrestling stars in 883 00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:18.199 the nineteen sixties. DAWA came into prominence. In the seventies, 884 00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:22.039 you got Boquickle Stevens. You know, the plushure methought was 885 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.239 not every Yeah, everybody is on top. I mean, this 886 00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:29.960 is one hell of a territory. And even until I'm 887 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.920 gonna say, you know, maybe Wrestle Rock, some people will 888 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.800 say that that was kind of the you know, the 889 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:39.519 first indicator after wrest Wrestle Rock that things were going downhill. 890 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:43.039 In the scheme of things, vern Ganya was a big 891 00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:46.440 time player. Nobody will understand the impact that he had 892 00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:51.639 not only as a professional wrestling celebrity, but as a 893 00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:56.639 wrestler celebrity. And that's the difference because you know, and 894 00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:59.480 I saw the WWE, and you know, God bless them, 895 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.679 they put up a tribute video to Verne Gania the 896 00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:06.119 other day, and I'm sure they're sincere in their condolences, 897 00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:09.360 but they refer to Vern as a sports entertainer, and 898 00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:12.719 believe me, that would be the last thing that Verne 899 00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:16.119 would want to be called as a sports entertainer because 900 00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:18.840 he was a wrestler. He was a bona fide tough guy, 901 00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:23.039 and he gave professional wrestling. I think this goes to 902 00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:26.280 your point about what did he mean to the old 903 00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:32.320 school fan. He gave wrestling credibility, He gave wrestlers credibility. 904 00:50:33.079 --> 00:50:34.880 These are the kind of guys that he would want 905 00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:37.920 to put on top in the AWA. The backlinkles, even 906 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.199 mad Dog had the amateur wrestling background, and Vern and 907 00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:46.360 Billy Robinson and Wilburt Snyder and guys like this. If 908 00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:49.079 you were on top of the AWA, you were on 909 00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:54.159 top with a wrestling company. So in that sense, to me, 910 00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:58.679 the AWA was probably in vern Gania was probably the 911 00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:04.280 last vestige of old school Suspend the disbelief. These guys 912 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:08.039 are great wrestlers with an amateur wrestling background. They know 913 00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:12.079 their holes. This is the real deal. It may have 914 00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:14.360 been the last of it with the AWA. So in 915 00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:18.519 terms of legacy, that's the imprint, that's the impact. 916 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:26.360 You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro 917 00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:28.360 Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of 918 00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:30.639 Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check 919 00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:33.519 out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and 920 00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:37.840 SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell 921 00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:40.239 you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show, 922 00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:43.199 and it will also analyze key segments and give my 923 00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:47.119 random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs. 924 00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.360 So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday Night 925 00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:54.400 at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay perviews. 926 00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:56.760 I cover those live at pw torch dot com with 927 00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:59.440 a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course 928 00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:01.760 you can find out the TV reports from other contributors 929 00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:05.800 to PW torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. 930 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:08.840 Check it out pw torch dot com your first stop 931 00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:21.440 for TV and pay per views written reports. And I 932 00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:25.320 mean vern Gania was recognized by Sports Illustrated in the 933 00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:29.840 year two thousand as one of the fifty greatest sports 934 00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:36.960 figures from each state, and vern was in his prime years, 935 00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:41.559 and it's so credible because of what he accomplished as 936 00:52:41.559 --> 00:52:44.239 an amateur wrestler, and that was you know, Vern really 937 00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:46.079 looked to that. You know, I mean even Scott Norton 938 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:48.400 in the end, when I interviewed verne Gania the first 939 00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.519 Torch Talk I ever did, and I wrote about this 940 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:53.039 in this week's Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter, and I put 941 00:52:53.079 --> 00:52:55.719 excerpts of this remarkable interview that kind of opened my 942 00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:58.519 eyes to what an interview could be like when somebody 943 00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:01.159 opened up and talked openly about the inner workings of 944 00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:03.880 the business. It's very ironic. Vern was the person who 945 00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:07.440 started that the Torch Talk series of insider interviews. But 946 00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:10.440 he talked about his frustrations withinsick man stealing all his 947 00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:12.599 talent and I already had worked to get

there and 948 00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:14.719 build it up, and you know, and the comments he had, 949 00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:17.679 and of course the sad and infamous comment about Brewser 950 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:20.280 Brodie getting what he asked for in reference to or 951 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:22.559 probably getting what he asked for in reference to getting 952 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:24.760 murdered in a locker room and Puerto Rico on a 953 00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:27.599 wrestling show he was. He opened up in a way 954 00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:29.679 that he probably never had been before. Because he had 955 00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:33.840 been probably interviewed by mainstream media in a more fluffy way, 956 00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:38.239 and I asked him questions he wanted to answer. And I, 957 00:53:38.360 --> 00:53:40.280 even at that point and I was still a teenager, 958 00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:42.280 very early in the Torch years, I was able to 959 00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:44.519 ask him some probing questions that got him to open up, 960 00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:51.840 and he talked about the value of that interview. Scott 961 00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:54.280 Norton being an I am ARM Wrestling champion, like, he 962 00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:58.679 looked for anything that was a legit sports background as 963 00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:02.679 the foundation to give credibility to his talent or his 964 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:06.800 wrestlers that he featured, and vern came from that. He 965 00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:11.280 was hugely successful Ncuble a wrestler at the University of 966 00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:15.719 Minnesota with multiple Big Ten titles and NCAA championships, and 967 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:18.760 also a real standout a good football player, and I 968 00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:23.760 believe he played or tried out for Green Bay Packers maybe, 969 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:26.719 but yeah, I mean, just that legit sports background was 970 00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:29.440 really important to him and he always looked for that, 971 00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:31.800 and that was something that gave pro wrestling, which wasn't 972 00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:34.480 on the up and up, and people were always skeptical 973 00:54:34.519 --> 00:54:37.679 of it, but it wasn't as well known or spoken about. Uh, 974 00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:41.599 obviously it was people didn't speak copingly about how pro 975 00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:45.679 wrestling operated if much, if at all, in the fifties, sixties, 976 00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:50.559 and seventies. It it really Vern really hung onto that 977 00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:51.920 to the end. In fact, when he talked to me 978 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:54.280 about Hulk Cogan, he was like, I taught Hulk Cogan every, 979 00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:56.159 you know, we taught him everything. He didn't know anything, 980 00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:59.039 and I taught him. But Nick one of vern gone 981 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.119 his big legacies

and kind of trying to lead here, 982 00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:06.320 and this is Hulk Hogan. Vern Gania doesn't get in 983 00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:08.559 most circles. In some circles he does, but in most 984 00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:12.840 circles doesn't get the credit he deserves for creating Hulkamania, 985 00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:16.599 for directing Hulk Hogan and how to be a top 986 00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:19.480 baby face that I mean, I think vern Gania would 987 00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:21.880 be invaluable for Roman Reigns right now to tie it 988 00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:25.280 into today's wrestling scene. Vern talked about that with me 989 00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:28.199 in that torch talk, and Hulk Hogan gave a shout 990 00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:32.119 out to him, and after he died this week talk 991 00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:35.840 about Vern's instinct for being a babyface and what he 992 00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:39.440 did to help Hulk Hogan become this huge star that 993 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.519 Vincent Mann basically recruited and signed away from him. 994 00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:45.039 Well, I'm going to take a step back first and 995 00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:46.440 then I'll you know, get. 996 00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:47.599 To that point long question. 997 00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:50.840 Yeah, no, no, no, you you brought up a great 998 00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:55.239 point about Vern wanting to legitimize wrestling in any way 999 00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:58.400 he could. I mean, first and foremost, it was the 1000 00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:01.199 amateur wrestling background. If you had that, if you were 1001 00:56:01.239 --> 00:56:03.639 the Brad Ringins or you know, or Larry Hannig or 1002 00:56:03.639 --> 00:56:06.400 anybody like that, and Vern could say, look at this 1003 00:56:06.440 --> 00:56:10.199 guy's amateur wrestling background, he was the real deal. You know, 1004 00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:12.559 that was first and foremost with him. But you know, 1005 00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:15.159 you brought up a great point. Scott Norton had the 1006 00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:19.760 arm wrestling championship background, Ken Petera, a world class weightlifter. 1007 00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:22.920 So as long as Vern could mention guys that he 1008 00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:27.679 was bringing into the business that had legitimate, legitimate amateur 1009 00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:32.599 sports background, it legitimized professional wrestling. And you know, and 1010 00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:34.960 it was and again, you know, and I'll get to 1011 00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.079 the point about Hulk Hogan in a second. You know, 1012 00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:40.880 the point that you brought up about interviewing Vern and 1013 00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:44.039 him being used to fluff questions and not being used 1014 00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:48.000 to you know, getting asked the hard hitting questions. I 1015 00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:51.159 can only imagine what that was like for Vern

Ganya. 1016 00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:54.960 I mean, because you know Vern and and Nick Bockwinkle 1017 00:56:55.039 --> 00:57:00.320 and guys like this that held onto the very absolute 1018 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:05.519 in defending the business and the realism and the legitimacy 1019 00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:09.159 of it. That had to be totally abhorrent to Vern 1020 00:57:09.639 --> 00:57:13.679 to get questions like that, And you know, I knew him, 1021 00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:17.360 and I knew you know, he didn't when he trained guys, 1022 00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:19.800 he didn't smarten him up until it was time to 1023 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:22.360 get in the ring. I mean Stargan Flauter and Rick Clair, 1024 00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:25.599 guys like that. They'll talk about that. They went through 1025 00:57:25.639 --> 00:57:28.639 the training camp and Vern it was absolutely one hundred 1026 00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:32.159 percent legitimate on the level, you know, until it was 1027 00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:35.280 time for you to be told otherwise. So you know, 1028 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:37.440 that was again, you know, just just kind of to 1029 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:39.639 your point about Vern, you know, reaching out to the 1030 00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:42.679 to the other amateur sports. As far as what he 1031 00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:45.639 did with hul Cogan. Absolutely, you know there's another one, 1032 00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:48.280 and Vern does have a right or did have a 1033 00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:52.559 right to be upset because he did mold hull Cogan, 1034 00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:55.119 you know, along with Greg and the other guys that 1035 00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:57.519 were in the AWA at the time. Nick and Ray 1036 00:57:57.519 --> 00:58:00.880 Stevens and whoever else. They directed this guy. They taught 1037 00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:02.800 him how to cut a promo, they took you know, 1038 00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:05.760 Hogan was was pretty stiff, you know when he first 1039 00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:08.199 came in and he was doing his promos, you know, 1040 00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.159 especially his heel promos out East. He always had somebody 1041 00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:14.519 talking for him, you know, Fred Blassie or whoever it was, 1042 00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:18.280 and Vern really did direct him. And I can understand 1043 00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:23.480 his consternation and being aggravated because everybody, Ah, Hulk Hogan 1044 00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:26.760 burst onto the scene and you know, nobody gives Hern 1045 00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:30.760 credit or there was no Hulk Hogan career before nineteen 1046 00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:33.280 eighty four. In the eyes of some people, you know, 1047 00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:33.960 there was no. 1048 00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:36.880 Hole shirts and his T shirts make that are out now, 1049 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:40.159 say Hulk a Mania established nineteen eighty four or nineteen 1050 00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:40.679 eighty three. 1051 00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:44.760 Isn't that company? Yeah, And that's that's disgusting because here 1052 00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:46.599 you got a guy for you know, the couple of 1053 00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:49.559 years that he was here in the AWA. I mean 1054 00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:53.840 those eighteen thy nineteen thousand sellouts at the Saint Paul 1055 00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:56.719 Civic Center and Wade. You know, they were doing that 1056 00:58:56.840 --> 00:59:01.079 all over the horn no matter where Hogan went. Chicago Milwaukee, Denver, 1057 00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:05.000 it was sellout crowds and basically to you know, to 1058 00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:08.000 crap on that and say, you know, there was no 1059 00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:11.159 Hull Hogan, there was no whole comania until he'd beat 1060 00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:15.679 the iron cheek, his absolute bs and I completely understand 1061 00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:17.039 why Verne was upset by that. 1062 00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:19.519 I will say in my interview with with Vern, I 1063 00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:22.360 don't think I the questions I asked were not in 1064 00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.920 any way like confronting him or challenging him to speak 1065 00:59:25.960 --> 00:59:29.119 about how matches were a work, because that just wasn't done, 1066 00:59:29.239 --> 00:59:33.000 but just asking him about Vince McMahon and the expansion 1067 00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:36.440 into Verne's territory, the signing a way of talent, his 1068 00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:38.519 thoughts on and I you know, I knew when I asked, 1069 00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:41.280 you know about want the Carbo or Bruise or Brodie 1070 00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:44.480 or different people that he had up and down relationships with. 1071 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:47.039 I figured i'd probably get some sort of you know, 1072 00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:49.320 I was trying to I didn't ask about Kenny Jay 1073 00:59:49.320 --> 00:59:51.000 because I figured he'd say nice guy. I wanted to 1074 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:56.400 get more provocative answers. But was when I asked about 1075 00:59:56.599 --> 00:59:58.800 Hulk Hogan, he says, I think he came along at 1076 00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:01.920 a very opportune time, And that line really jumps out, Mick, 1077 01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:03.360 because I wrote in the cover story and this was 1078 01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:06.440 prossing torture newsletter about how Hulk came around at an 1079 01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:08.880 opportune time. In the sense that Vern retires in May 1080 01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:11.599 of eighty one, Hulk Hogan is headlining a couple months later, 1081 01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:15.000 a few months later as the lead babyface, a completely 1082 01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:18.920 different type of wrestler than Vern was used to on Top. 1083 01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:24.320 But Vern, as much as he gets, he's given a 1084 01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:27.599 hard time for not

staying with the times and being 1085 01:00:27.639 --> 01:00:33.519 behind the times. He had maybe reluctantly, maybe grating his teeth, 1086 01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:36.480 but he didn't he did not refuse to push Hulk 1087 01:00:36.519 --> 01:00:39.320 Hogan on top. You know, Vince McMann doesn't think didn't 1088 01:00:39.320 --> 01:00:41.280 think Daniel Bryan was worthy of being on top. And 1089 01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:44.679 it took only a complete rejection to Batista and injuries 1090 01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:46.440 and all kinds of other things for him to get 1091 01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:47.920 a short run. And we'll never know how far he 1092 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:49.199 would have gone with him because of all the health 1093 01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:53.079 problems and injuries afterwards. But Vern actually went with Hogan, Mick, 1094 01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:57.000 he promoted him on top, and Hulk was hugely successful 1095 01:00:57.039 --> 01:01:00.159 and it really was a transitionary time that precede did 1096 01:01:00.199 --> 01:01:03.960 wrestle Ania, that preceded the rock and wrestling connection. Vern 1097 01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:09.320 being willing to give a headline spot and directing Hogan 1098 01:01:09.360 --> 01:01:11.960 in a way that maximized what Hogan had and Mick 1099 01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:13.519 and I want to go to Kenny talking about Hogan 1100 01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:15.719 in a second, but make your thoughts on that and 1101 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:19.119 that Vern maybe gets a bad rap for not you know, yes, 1102 01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:21.320 he didn't keep Hogan around and they had business disputes, 1103 01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:24.360 but Hogan was went against everything Vern stood for, and 1104 01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:28.119 yet he's still of course, the money was everything pushed 1105 01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:28.760 him to the top. 1106 01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:31.760 I think he hit it right on the head. Their 1107 01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:34.480 money was everything. And as much as Vern wanted to 1108 01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:38.360 maintain that old school mentality, you know, all of a sudden, 1109 01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:43.280 my god, the cash registers are overflowing everywhere with Hulk Cogan. 1110 01:01:43.360 --> 01:01:45.960 So I mean he basically had no choice. I mean, 1111 01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:49.639 this guy's, hey, let's let's ride the tide here. And 1112 01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:54.519 you know, certainly money talks up to but not including 1113 01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:57.599 putting Hogan over as the champion, and that I think 1114 01:01:57.719 --> 01:02:00.760 is is really a key here too. Wait, and it 1115 01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:02.719 was kind of a damned if you do, damned if 1116 01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:05.800 you don't, because you know, here this guy is on 1117 01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:09.000 top and he's feuding with everybody from David Schultz Jesse 1118 01:02:09.119 --> 01:02:13.159 Ventura mister SAIDO, you know, right on down the line. 1119 01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:17.360 But yeah, but Bockwikell again until it came time to 1120 01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:20.840 switched the strap, and that wasn't gonna happen. You know, 1121 01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:23.559 he Vern still went with the old guard. He still 1122 01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:27.079 went with the wrestler. And I mean that from a 1123 01:02:27.239 --> 01:02:30.239 from a technical standpoint. He went with the wrestler as 1124 01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:34.119 opposed to the big, you know, muscular blonde guy from 1125 01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:37.840 Venice Beach. But but again it goes back to, you 1126 01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:39.840 know again what you said a little bit earlier on 1127 01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:42.360 you know that Vern. You know, maybe he got a 1128 01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:44.800 bad rap because he didn't hang on to Hogan too long. 1129 01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:48.599 Maybe got a bad rap because he he didn't put 1130 01:02:48.599 --> 01:02:50.960 the strap on him. Maybe in retrospect he should have 1131 01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:53.280 done that. But in terms of what he created with 1132 01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:57.280 Hulk Hogan, absolutely it's documented. That's another part of ver 1133 01:02:57.440 --> 01:03:01.639 Gania's legacy that people should absolutely wreck recognized. And you 1134 01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:05.880 know again, boy that the times were changing back then, 1135 01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:09.199 and I think the whole thing was so whirlwind for Vern. 1136 01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:12.320 You know, back in the day at a when he retired, 1137 01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:14.920 and he came back in nineteen eighty six for Wrestle Rock. 1138 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:17.760 You know how old was he was sixty some years 1139 01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:20.400 old when he came back, or sixty sixteen when he 1140 01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:24.239 came back for Restaurant, And you know, the whole wrestling 1141 01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:27.159 world is just like flying away from him. And he 1142 01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:30.079 did everything he could. You know, you mentioned earlier the 1143 01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:31.880 part about you know, did Vern keep up with the 1144 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:33.880 times and he should have done this and that. You 1145 01:03:33.880 --> 01:03:39.000 know what, in a sense he really tried. Given the 1146 01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.920 the parameters of what trying was to vern Gania, he 1147 01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:47.079 left the old studio, the small studio format. He went 1148 01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:49.519 out to Atlantic City, he went out to the show 1149 01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:52.840 Moode in Las Vegas. He tried different things. Yeah, he 1150 01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:56.039 went with the midnight rockers, you know, and I mean 1151 01:03:56.079 --> 01:03:59.639 he really tried as best as he could while he 1152 01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:03.039 was ridding his teeth, you know, to kind of

go 1153 01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:05.519 with the flow. But you know, it just wasn't to be. 1154 01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:08.519 And people will say, you know, did Vern hang on 1155 01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:12.079 too long? Was he with that old school mentality? You know, 1156 01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:15.880 who didn't Vince outlast in the scheme of things? And 1157 01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:20.000 everybody everybody's gone. I mean some people it took longer 1158 01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:29.400 than others, but he outlasted everybody. Nobody kept up with them. 1159 01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:32.559 Longing for some nostalgia, or maybe you want to learn 1160 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:36.519 some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Pass cast every 1161 01:04:36.519 --> 01:04:39.880 Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and 1162 01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:43.199 Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by 1163 01:04:43.320 --> 01:04:46.039 taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak 1164 01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:49.679 follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the 1165 01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:52.960 happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as 1166 01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:56.400 The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties 1167 01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:59.840 Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. 1168 01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:13.679 And and I will as far as not giving Hogan 1169 01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:18.480 the belt, Vin Vern liked he worked with people in 1170 01:05:18.519 --> 01:05:20.920 the especially in the set the seventies, but even the 1171 01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:24.639 sixties who were friends of his or you know, with 1172 01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:26.599 a crush or you know, a love hate relationship with 1173 01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:29.440 business wise over the years, but you know, he and 1174 01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:33.199 Nick Bockwinkle were there was a trust there and there 1175 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:35.400 wasn't with Stan Hansen. You know, Stan Hansen came in 1176 01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:39.280 after Holk Hogan. UH was part of kind of UH 1177 01:05:39.400 --> 01:05:42.239 parallel the Road Warrior era the post Hogan Road Warrior 1178 01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:44.239 and Stan Hansen and Rick Martell Era at the a 1179 01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:47.440 W a kind of before the last chapter of Zubisco 1180 01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:50.480 and the Rockers and Buddy Rosen, Duck Summers and and 1181 01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:53.199 Hanson walked out, you know, and and didn't come and 1182 01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:55.679 they had to just hand Nick Bockwinkle the title a 1183 01:05:55.679 --> 01:05:57.559 different title belt than the one Hanson left with, and 1184 01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:00.960 no showed And and maybe Vern looked at that and said, 1185 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:02.400 you know what, had I given Hogan the belt, that 1186 01:06:02.440 --> 01:06:05.400 probably would have happened earlier with Hulk. Now, you could 1187 01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:07.719 say that's Vern's fault for the way he conducted business 1188 01:06:07.719 --> 01:06:09.840 with his talent. But Vern may have looked at the 1189 01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:14.840 Hanson incidents as a kind of a validation of his 1190 01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:17.679 unwillingness to go all the way with Hogan before he 1191 01:06:17.719 --> 01:06:20.920 felt more comfortable on a business relationship and friendship with 1192 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:23.599 him because Hulk was of a different generation and Vern 1193 01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:27.960 was used to working with his generation Backwinkle, Crusher, Stevens, Patterson, 1194 01:06:28.039 --> 01:06:31.199 Robinson and I mean, Mick. How did that play into it? 1195 01:06:31.239 --> 01:06:33.559 That Hulk was just of a different generation and Vern 1196 01:06:33.679 --> 01:06:35.360 was having a hand over the keys to the shift 1197 01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:38.239 to somebody that he just didn't know or trust besides 1198 01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:40.960 the fact that Hulk wasn't that amateur standout. 1199 01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:43.679 That was That's a great point, Wade. And if you 1200 01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:45.840 think about it, and you mentioned Stan Hanson, that's a 1201 01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:49.679 perfect example. And then Bruiser Brody bringing in Bruiser Brody, 1202 01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:52.280 I mean, there's guys that came in that were so 1203 01:06:52.519 --> 01:06:55.800 totally one hundred and eighty different than what Vern was 1204 01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:58.719 used to and guys you would never in a million 1205 01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:02.679 years think Vern would bring in the road Warriors. Perfect example. 1206 01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:07.400 You know, you go back to Jesse Ventura nineteen eighty four. 1207 01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:09.679 You know when Jesse all of a sudden he's gone. 1208 01:07:10.039 --> 01:07:12.239 You know, one day, you know, Verne's portionate the move. 1209 01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:15.920 The next day he's gone. Brody is walking out in 1210 01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:19.000 the middle of matches. Stan Hansen runs over a title belt. 1211 01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:23.679 I mean, this is this is the generation that Vern 1212 01:07:23.960 --> 01:07:27.400 was dealing with. And so clearly you can understand why 1213 01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:30.280 he turns to the bock Wiggles. He turns to the 1214 01:07:30.280 --> 01:07:34.679 Baron von Raski's sadly to the detriment of the AWA 1215 01:07:35.039 --> 01:07:37.280 because you know, the guys were, you know, into their 1216 01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:40.519 fifties at the time. Although you know, an argument could 1217 01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:43.320 be said that Nick was still phenomenal even you know 1218 01:07:43.320 --> 01:07:45.960 in nineteen eighty six when he wrestled Kurt you know, 1219 01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:48.320 Nick was, you know, fifty two years old or whatever 1220

01:07:48.360 --> 01:07:50.599 it was when they went to a one hour Broadway. 1221 01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:55.840 But again, I mean it's just totally generation all. 1222 01:07:55.960 --> 01:07:58.679 Yeah, and the fact that I want to jump I 1223 01:07:58.679 --> 01:08:02.159 want to jump in and say this wrestling. I want 1224 01:08:02.199 --> 01:08:08.199 to wrestling fans love Undertaker at age fifty wrestling at WrestleMania. 1225 01:08:08.599 --> 01:08:11.519 Fans have been clamoring for five years for Sting, who finally, 1226 01:08:11.559 --> 01:08:13.800 at age fifty five the same year as Verne's retirement 1227 01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:16.720 match the same age showed up at WrestleMania for the 1228 01:08:16.720 --> 01:08:19.920 first time and wrestled Triple H. Triple H in his 1229 01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:22.880 mid forties, still put himself on TV all the time, 1230 01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:25.359 more than vern Gania did, probably, I don't know, ratio wise, 1231 01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:30.239 maybe it's similar. It happens in every generation and so 1232 01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:35.000 many different territories and different settings. The legendary wrestlers, when 1233 01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:38.000 they still have drawing power, end up still the fans 1234 01:08:38.000 --> 01:08:40.680 still pay to see him. And obviously when somebody, whether 1235 01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:43.000 it's it's Undertaker and Sting who don't have a stake 1236 01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:45.319 in the company or somebody like Triple H who does 1237 01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:48.840 there's a temptation to either take the payday or keep 1238 01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:52.039 your grip on that power that comes from being the 1239 01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:54.000 star of the shows, because nobody can take that away 1240 01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:57.520 from you. Vern Ganya, though, was criticized late sixties through 1241 01:08:57.560 --> 01:09:02.000 the say, mid seventies, because he had so much talent 1242 01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:05.640 to work with who were big stars, but he held 1243 01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:08.279 on as champion. And I guess one question I want 1244 01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:10.600 to I want to give to you micas. Did Verne 1245 01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:15.359 deserve criticism during that time for hanging on too long? 1246 01:09:16.640 --> 01:09:20.119 Because Billy, I mean Superstar, Billy Graham, Nick Bockwinkel, Ray Stevens, 1247 01:09:20.119 --> 01:09:23.359 a Crusher, Billy Robinson. You can list big names. Should 1248 01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.840 Vern have given a turn to them on top, especially 1249 01:09:27.880 --> 01:09:30.319 when Crusher was, by a lot of metrics a bigger 1250 01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:33.079 draw than Vern in certain markets. 1251 01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:39.359 Yes, I think he probably should have give them a turn. 1252 01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:41.600 Here's the thing. I mean, you go back a little bit, 1253 01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:45.000 a little bit farther than that, like to the sixties. 1254 01:09:45.039 --> 01:09:46.960 He would give Crusher a turn, and he would have 1255 01:09:47.079 --> 01:09:49.319 mad Dog was on top for a couple of years. 1256 01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:52.760 So you know, as it got into the late sixties 1257 01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:57.920 into the early seventies. Then Vern started to cling to 1258 01:09:57.920 --> 01:10:00.399 the belt Moore and put himself on top more and 1259 01:10:00.479 --> 01:10:03.279 for longer periods of time, and that kind of thing. 1260 01:10:03.399 --> 01:10:06.119 And you know that was not a good thing. And 1261 01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:09.279 part of the problem to weight is said back then, 1262 01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:12.800 and again you're talking nineteen seventy two. I think it's 1263 01:10:12.840 --> 01:10:15.880 a perfect example. Seventy two seventy three, when he had 1264 01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:19.359 all that talent that you're talking about, Verne defended the 1265 01:10:19.399 --> 01:10:22.680 AWA title, I believe, and this is not just in 1266 01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:25.680 the Twin Cities. This is like all over the horn 1267 01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:31.560 a dozen times or fifteen times the entire year. And 1268 01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:35.199 I think that added to the perception of wait a minute, now, 1269 01:10:35.319 --> 01:10:38.039 you know you're getting on in years burn you don't 1270 01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:39.920 look so good when you're in the ring, you know, 1271 01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:42.880 and you know you get ring rust. I mean, let's 1272 01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:45.920 face it, you know you wrestle, you know that infrequently 1273 01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:48.920 and you're on top. So that added to the perception 1274 01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:51.079 is that maybe he should have passed the title around, 1275 01:10:51.319 --> 01:10:55.239 because he did have tremendous talent back then. So yeah, 1276 01:10:55.399 --> 01:10:57.560 is there you know, did Vern hang on too long? Yeah? 1277 01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:02.439 But as you said, he's certainly not alone. Every major promotion, 1278 01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:06.479 especially when the guy owns the company. They've done the 1279 01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:10.600 same thing everywhere. And I think with vern sad to say, 1280 01:11:10.720 --> 01:11:14.239 the last maybe ten years of his career, because he 1281 01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:18.560 wrestled so infrequently, it was more glaring that he wasn't 1282 01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:19.800 passing the title around. 1283 01:11:20.079 --> 01:11:23.159 Yeah, yeah, Kenny, we talked a lot about Hulk Hogan. 1284 01:11:23.239 --> 01:11:29.159 Kenny J a multi decade wrestler for the AWA. Were 1285 01:11:29.199 --> 01:11:32.000 you around Hulk Hogan much when Hulk took off after 1286 01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:32.960 Verne's retirement. 1287 01:11:35.039 --> 01:11:40.800 Well, I was there and haw Hogan was in uh 1288 01:11:40.840 --> 01:11:45.000 wrestling

here and me and him we got along real great. 1289 01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:48.960 And I mean I never wrestled the guy, but he 1290 01:11:49.079 --> 01:11:52.439 was a lot younger than me. But yeah, I knew 1291 01:11:52.479 --> 01:11:57.640 him real well. But I guess uh Vince had him 1292 01:11:57.640 --> 01:11:59.920 tied up so he had a littleave for New York 1293 01:12:01.399 --> 01:12:02.039 and I. 1294 01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:05.239 Know him, yes, yes, but you know now, I mean 1295 01:12:05.359 --> 01:12:07.960 Hulk was like seventeen, I think, seventeen years older or 1296 01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:11.840 younger than you. Yeah, you know, that's that's a that's 1297 01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:14.199 a you know, a generation or two. Did you look 1298 01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:18.319 at Hogan when he was around, as Wow, this is 1299 01:12:18.359 --> 01:12:21.239 the future of wrestling, this guy. Look at the way 1300 01:12:21.279 --> 01:12:23.760 the crowd's reacting to him, or did you look at 1301 01:12:23.840 --> 01:12:26.840 him somewhat skeptically, going this might be a fad because 1302 01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:30.159 he doesn't look like the main event wrestlers who who 1303 01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:32.840 I've been in the ring with and I've watched rawbe crowd. 1304 01:12:32.920 --> 01:12:35.560 So what was your perception at that time? Folk? 1305 01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:39.079 I really looked at him as a great athlete, and 1306 01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:42.239 he was a great wrestler. He had a great physique, 1307 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:46.760 he had potentials, you know, he had everything going for him, 1308 01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:49.720 you know. And he was young and he had everything 1309 01:12:49.760 --> 01:12:54.520 going for him. And I would have given anything in 1310 01:12:54.560 --> 01:12:58.800 my soul to be like him, you know, but there's 1311 01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:03.560 no way I could because I wasn't in that good shape. 1312 01:13:03.560 --> 01:13:06.640 But he did have everything going for him. And I 1313 01:13:06.680 --> 01:13:09.439 gotta give him all the credit for what he did. 1314 01:13:09.960 --> 01:13:13.720 And you know, he did and he made he made 1315 01:13:13.800 --> 01:13:17.760 him something model himself, and I gotta give him credit 1316 01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:18.079 for that. 1317 01:13:20.520 --> 01:13:23.840 Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or AW 1318 01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:26.680 Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got 1319 01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:28.479 thoughts on the show or a topic you want us 1320 01:13:28.520 --> 01:13:32.279 to address, or a question for us. Wadekellor Podcast at 1321 01:13:32.479 --> 01:13:37.239 PW torch dot com Weadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. 1322 01:13:37.319 --> 01:13:39.119 If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that 1323 01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:41.520 you want us to address on our main podcast during 1324 01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:45.479 our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wadkeller Podcast at 1325 01:13:45.520 --> 01:13:48.920 pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us 1326 01:13:48.960 --> 01:13:51.119 know what you think of what we're saying, and let 1327 01:13:51.199 --> 01:13:53.000 us know what you want us to talk about and 1328 01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:58.960 ask us specific questions. Wadkeller Podcast at pw torch dot com. 1329 01:13:59.439 --> 01:14:01.159 Would you say that at that time you were in 1330 01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:05.479 favor of him being the new lead babyface, the lead 1331 01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:07.880 hero of the a w A. Did you look at 1332 01:14:07.880 --> 01:14:10.079 this and go, yeah, this this is the next big star. 1333 01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:15.039 Well not at that time, because he just came into 1334 01:14:15.079 --> 01:14:19.319 the territory and you know there was other great guy 1335 01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:23.680 you know backway over and Ghani and billar Robinson. You know, 1336 01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:28.680 he had to go to a great stable there to 1337 01:14:28.800 --> 01:14:33.039 get to get on top, you know. But so he 1338 01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:35.319 had a lot to go. He had a lot of 1339 01:14:35.319 --> 01:14:38.319 ways to go to get on top. But he had, 1340 01:14:38.439 --> 01:14:40.840 like I said, he had everything going from he was young. 1341 01:14:41.039 --> 01:14:45.119 He had the physique, he had you know, the talent, 1342 01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:48.920 and he was he was a great great wrestler. 1343 01:14:49.159 --> 01:14:53.800 Kenny, who was verne Ganya friends with among wrestlers, and 1344 01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:58.159 who did he simply have a business relationship with among 1345 01:14:58.840 --> 01:15:00.399 the top names we've talked about out or some of 1346 01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:02.840 the other wrestlers that that were around for a lot, 1347 01:15:03.159 --> 01:15:05.319 in other words, who were his friends, who he would 1348 01:15:05.319 --> 01:15:07.279 call his friend, they would call him their friend, and 1349 01:15:07.319 --> 01:15:09.760 who looked at Vern as a boss and a colleague 1350 01:15:09.760 --> 01:15:10.880 but really not a friend. 1351 01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:15.359 Well there he had a lot of the wrestlers on 1352 01:15:15.479 --> 01:15:18.840 his side, you know, like the Crusher, you know, he was. 1353 01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:21.640 He was a great guy, you know. And and like 1354 01:15:21.720 --> 01:15:24.720 I said when he when I was interviewed when he died, 1355 01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:27.520 I said, there will never be another Crusher, you know. 1356 01:15:28.119 --> 01:15:31.199 And now the Verner's gone and there will never be 1357 01:15:31.239 --> 01:15:34.600 another vern you know. I mean, they all had their 1358 01:15:34.640 --> 01:15:38.520 own ways and their own style, you know, like mad dogs. 1359 01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:42.159 You know, he's gone. And and he was a great 1360 01:15:42.319

--> 01:15:44.840 friend of mine, even though he kicked the crap out 1361 01:15:44.840 --> 01:15:47.880 of me many times, you know, but he did a 1362 01:15:47.920 --> 01:15:50.279 lot of the help for me on my benefit, you know, 1363 01:15:50.359 --> 01:15:53.399 and I appreciate him. But he's gone, and you know, 1364 01:15:53.479 --> 01:15:58.319 it's hard, it's you know, so they they all were 1365 01:15:58.399 --> 01:16:01.800 in there, they were, did their thing, They wrestled away 1366 01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:06.479 they want to and they were great. And then so 1367 01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:09.680 you know, vern has he had some good talents, you know. 1368 01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:15.119 So what he did good. I gotta say that for Vernon, 1369 01:16:15.479 --> 01:16:18.439 which he did. He was a great promoter, a great wrestler, 1370 01:16:19.239 --> 01:16:20.399 a great family man. 1371 01:16:21.279 --> 01:16:25.840 When you were around the matches, did vern carry himself 1372 01:16:26.600 --> 01:16:30.680 as one of the boys or as the boss who 1373 01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:35.119 separated himself out of necessity from mingling like you might 1374 01:16:35.239 --> 01:16:38.000 have with other wrestlers. Did did Vern kind of have 1375 01:16:38.119 --> 01:16:39.840 to put himself in a separate area or did he 1376 01:16:39.960 --> 01:16:41.840 just kind of if you didn't know he was the boss, 1377 01:16:41.920 --> 01:16:44.520 would you observe backstage was going on? I know he was. 1378 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:48.960 It's funny you would say that because I know one 1379 01:16:49.079 --> 01:16:52.960 time he came in the TV station he said, Uh, 1380 01:16:54.079 --> 01:16:57.319 I'm here. You guys are working for me, you know, 1381 01:16:57.479 --> 01:17:00.119 and I couldn't believe that, you know, but you know, 1382 01:17:00.239 --> 01:17:04.159 he said, it wasn't directly to me, but you know, 1383 01:17:04.399 --> 01:17:08.159 these for TV, they used to get guys in from 1384 01:17:08.640 --> 01:17:13.319 Chicago and Canada, you know, and uh and uh and 1385 01:17:13.720 --> 01:17:17.119 and some guys would be sad and sore and look 1386 01:17:17.159 --> 01:17:21.600 and he said, you know, but he he was a businessman. 1387 01:17:21.960 --> 01:17:24.920 He was not only a promoter, he was a businessman 1388 01:17:25.560 --> 01:17:28.720 and he did it. This is great because you can 1389 01:17:29.159 --> 01:17:34.039 look back on his U scenario and he did he 1390 01:17:34.199 --> 01:17:37.560 made money, you know. So he was a great businessman, 1391 01:17:37.880 --> 01:17:41.920 a great wrestler and he did everything right to the 1392 01:17:42.159 --> 01:17:45.840 te So you know, uh, vern like I said, he 1393 01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:48.720 owed me. He got me with Muhammad Ali, he got 1394 01:17:48.760 --> 01:17:51.239 me in Japan, he got me, put me in the 1395 01:17:51.359 --> 01:17:55.520 six man tag. You know he didn't have to, but 1396 01:17:56.199 --> 01:18:00.800 maybe he said, well, sodbuster, he's got potential. I don't 1397 01:18:00.840 --> 01:18:03.840 know what it was, but I really appreciate to this 1398 01:18:04.039 --> 01:18:05.840 day and I'll never forget it. 1399 01:18:06.640 --> 01:18:07.680 Kenny did vers Wait? 1400 01:18:07.800 --> 01:18:07.960 Wait? 1401 01:18:08.039 --> 01:18:08.920 Can I yeah? 1402 01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:09.479 I'm sorry. 1403 01:18:09.520 --> 01:18:12.359 Go ahead, let me ask what Kenny and remember your thoughts, man, 1404 01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:18.079 Kenny did did vern ever let his guard down and 1405 01:18:19.000 --> 01:18:22.600 relax as especially well at any time that you were 1406 01:18:22.640 --> 01:18:24.840 around him, or did he kind of? I mean, you've 1407 01:18:24.880 --> 01:18:27.560 had different jobs, Kenny, and you know the boss can 1408 01:18:27.640 --> 01:18:30.359 only be so friendly with people who he's writing paychecks 1409 01:18:30.399 --> 01:18:33.199 out to day, Verne, did vern ever really let his 1410 01:18:33.319 --> 01:18:36.560 guard down at the bar afterwards or when you're hanging 1411 01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:38.720 out waiting around for this that or the other thing 1412 01:18:38.840 --> 01:18:41.399 or traveling or did vern kind of always have to 1413 01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:43.439 have his guard up and treat himself like, hey, you 1414 01:18:43.479 --> 01:18:44.640 guys work for me, I'm the boss. 1415 01:18:46.039 --> 01:18:46.880 No, he he. 1416 01:18:48.640 --> 01:18:52.520 Left his guard down sometime. I know we went to 1417 01:18:52.640 --> 01:18:57.520 a a fishing trip where he's place was nim In 1418 01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:02.039 uh in the over here, and we you know, he 1419 01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:06.359 he uh he had parties for the guys sometimes now 1420 01:19:06.439 --> 01:19:09.279 and then, you know, and we had with Wally Carbo. 1421 01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:12.000 You know, we went out fish and uh and then 1422 01:19:12.079 --> 01:19:14.920 we brought fish and we fried him right away. I mean, uh, 1423 01:19:15.239 --> 01:19:17.760 maybe that was once every five years or so, you know. 1424 01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:22.680 But he uh, he wasn't always a stern uh you know, 1425 01:19:23.119 --> 01:19:26.960 do this, do that guy. But he was a great guy. 1426 01:19:27.359 --> 01:19:30.079 And like I say, once in a while he would 1427 01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:34.720 let his hair down sort of speaking. But uh and 1428 01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:39.079 and be a family man and a great great uh 1429 01:19:39.560 --> 01:19:42.000 you know promoter Mick, Yeah. 1430 01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:45.359 Go ahead, what I was gonna say. Wait, And that's 1431 01:19:45.479 --> 01:19:47.880 that's a good point. And again I I you know, 1432 01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:51.960 talk not from firsthand experience, because I was on the 1433 01:19:52.039 --> 01:19:56.560 peripheral edges there, you know, and only would see certain 1434 01:19:56.640 -->

01:19:59.439 things or hear certain things from the boys. To your 1435 01:19:59.479 --> 01:20:02.319 point about whether or not he had friends. I think 1436 01:20:02.399 --> 01:20:05.239 he did, But it really depended on who you were, 1437 01:20:06.680 --> 01:20:09.399 And I don't know if it was necessarily the pecking order, 1438 01:20:10.680 --> 01:20:13.279 but and some of the younger guys that I would 1439 01:20:13.279 --> 01:20:16.159 talk to who may have been disgruntled over the years 1440 01:20:16.279 --> 01:20:18.960 working for Vernacorus. You know, these same guys made money, 1441 01:20:19.319 --> 01:20:21.640 you know, they you know, for all the piston and 1442 01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:25.079 mona that they do or did, they certainly made money 1443 01:20:25.199 --> 01:20:28.039 back in the day, and they didn't complain about that. 1444 01:20:28.239 --> 01:20:30.520 But I think it I don't know that Vern had 1445 01:20:30.560 --> 01:20:34.319 a wide social circle among the wrestlers. I think Vern's 1446 01:20:34.319 --> 01:20:37.720 social circle was the rest of society, if that makes sense. 1447 01:20:38.880 --> 01:20:42.199 And maybe a handful of guys I know that, you know, 1448 01:20:42.359 --> 01:20:46.239 he and Nick were close from a business standpoint. Again, 1449 01:20:46.319 --> 01:20:49.039 going back to the to the early sixties, wilber Snyder, 1450 01:20:49.359 --> 01:20:51.279 I think he and mad Dog was shot had a 1451 01:20:51.399 --> 01:20:55.000 real good relationship with each other. So I think it 1452 01:20:55.079 --> 01:20:57.920 dependent on who you were, Maybe not so much the 1453 01:20:58.039 --> 01:21:01.159 undercard guys. Maybe their perception was, you know that Vern 1454 01:21:01.319 --> 01:21:04.439 is the boss, and I'm over here. I think what 1455 01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:08.520 I saw as time went on, and certainly my tenure 1456 01:21:08.560 --> 01:21:12.880 in the AWA back in eighty seven eighty eight. I 1457 01:21:13.199 --> 01:21:16.640 there really was a separation, and maybe that was because 1458 01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:19.359 of the tension, and you know that the business had 1459 01:21:19.479 --> 01:21:21.479 changed and things were changing a little bit, you know, 1460 01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:24.840 for Vern. So there really was that line drawn in 1461 01:21:24.920 --> 01:21:26.840 the sand, and you had the boys over here for 1462 01:21:26.920 --> 01:21:28.600 the most part, and Vern was over here. 1463 01:21:29.159 --> 01:21:29.920 And it's interesting. 1464 01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:32.479 I mean even guys like Baron von Rashkin and Larry 1465 01:21:32.520 --> 01:21:36.000 Hennige's Dan Kowalski, guys who you know, made a lot 1466 01:21:36.039 --> 01:21:38.600 of money and worked for Vern for years and years 1467 01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:41.680 and were on top. I don't necessarily think they would 1468 01:21:41.680 --> 01:21:44.479 say that Vern was their best friend. But from a 1469 01:21:44.600 --> 01:21:46.960 business standpoint, he took care of him. And you know what, 1470 01:21:47.359 --> 01:21:49.920 you don't have to be friends necessarily, you know, if 1471 01:21:50.199 --> 01:21:53.960 this is a business and we're making money and Vern 1472 01:21:54.079 --> 01:21:57.000 being the perfectionist and in the professional that he was, 1473 01:21:58.359 --> 01:22:00.239 you know that that's just the way it was. And 1474 01:22:01.079 --> 01:22:05.119 you know, so school of friends. Yeah, the whole community 1475 01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:07.680 was his school of friends. I don't necessarily know about 1476 01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:09.319 the boys per se. 1477 01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:11.119 But he didn't look down at the rest of like, 1478 01:22:11.199 --> 01:22:13.279 well they work for me. No, I'm friends with the 1479 01:22:13.359 --> 01:22:15.800 governor and with them. 1480 01:22:16.119 --> 01:22:20.279 Yeah yeah, no, no, absolutely not. I I think that 1481 01:22:20.479 --> 01:22:23.600 you know again to your point of earlier, was vern 1482 01:22:23.640 --> 01:22:27.680 a genuine guy? Absolutely he was, And I think when 1483 01:22:27.720 --> 01:22:30.760 it came to business, business is business. And you know, 1484 01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:33.399 whether he was the task master at the TV studios, 1485 01:22:33.479 --> 01:22:36.479 you know, cutting promos for fifteen hours and banging his 1486 01:22:36.560 --> 01:22:39.199 forehead when the when you know, when the promo didn't 1487 01:22:39.239 --> 01:22:42.159 go correctly or whatever it was. You know, that was 1488 01:22:42.199 --> 01:22:44.720 the one side of Verne gang. Yet it was business 1489 01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:47.039 we got were probably not a product here that we 1490 01:22:47.159 --> 01:22:49.640 want to be believable. We wanted to be you know, 1491 01:22:49.840 --> 01:22:52.239 top notch. We want you know, we want to cross 1492 01:22:52.319 --> 01:22:54.560 all the t's and dot the i's and make sure 1493 01:22:54.880 --> 01:22:57.319 that this is the real deal. You can't blame them 1494 01:22:57.399 --> 01:22:59.800 for that in the end, that he rubbed some people 1495 01:22:59.840 --> 01:23:01.880 to long way because of that and because he became 1496 01:23:01.960 --> 01:23:05.239 more hard nosed over the years. Probably absolutely he did. 1497 01:23:05.720 --> 01:23:09.399 But you know what bottom line is dollars and cents, 1498 01:23:09.520 --> 01:23:11.880 and you can't argue with the promotions that lasted for 1499 01:23:12.000 --> 01:23:14.239 fifty years and made a ton of money. 1500 01:23:15.079 --> 01:23:25.439 Absolutely, are you a fan of AW looking to sit back, 1501 01:23:25.600 --> 01:23:28.680 relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share 1502 01:23:28.720 --> 01:23:29.199 your passion. 1503 01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:31.600 Do you want to be topped off the ledge after 1504 01:23:31.640 --> 01:23:33.880 a segment that has you wondering what the heck are 1505

01:23:33.920 --> 01:23:34.399 they thinking? 1506 01:23:35.039 --> 01:23:37.319 Do you want to join a discussion on what AW 1507 01:23:37.600 --> 01:23:40.000 is doing right and what they could do to improve, 1508 01:23:40.359 --> 01:23:42.960 Then join me, Joel and me Greg for the All 1509 01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:45.880 of the Conversation Club every Friday on the PW torch 1510 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:49.720 Live Cast. Fee search PW Torch in your podcast app 1511 01:23:49.800 --> 01:23:52.800 and subscribe to PW torch Daily Cast or stream our 1512 01:23:52.840 --> 01:23:56.239 shows directly from pw torch dot com. Find full details 1513 01:23:56.319 --> 01:23:59.359 on the PW torch Daily Cast lineup at PW torch 1514 01:23:59.520 --> 01:23:59.920 Daily Cast. 1515 01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:12.840 I do want to say too, and that you know 1516 01:24:12.960 --> 01:24:15.720 his final years suffering from Alzheimer's, he was mostly out 1517 01:24:15.760 --> 01:24:18.800 of the public eye. He made that appearance three years ago, 1518 01:24:18.840 --> 01:24:21.840 a little over three years ago at a showing of 1519 01:24:21.920 --> 01:24:24.960 the nineteen seventy four movie The Wrestler. Greg Gania was there. 1520 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.159 Greg Gania was live on this show during that showing, 1521 01:24:29.520 --> 01:24:31.880 in the lead up to or in between showings, because 1522 01:24:31.880 --> 01:24:33.600 they I think they did multiple airings that day and 1523 01:24:33.680 --> 01:24:36.039 Greg Gania was on the show that day. And I 1524 01:24:36.159 --> 01:24:38.079 encourage people listening to this. If you're a VIP member, 1525 01:24:38.079 --> 01:24:39.399 you can go right to the people of you Torch 1526 01:24:39.479 --> 01:24:42.079 live cast interview section. Just do a search on your 1527 01:24:42.119 --> 01:24:44.720 browser for Greg Ganya or Ganya and it'll take you 1528 01:24:44.840 --> 01:24:48.119 to that page. And if if you're a live cast listener, 1529 01:24:48.159 --> 01:24:49.359 you might be able to dig through and find it. 1530 01:24:49.439 --> 01:24:51.159 But that I think it was in I think it 1531 01:24:51.239 --> 01:24:55.479 was in January of twenty twelve when that was reshown. 1532 01:24:56.720 --> 01:25:00.199 But vern he had the incident at an at a 1533 01:25:00.279 --> 01:25:03.680 nursing home, got a scuffle with a fellow The last 1534 01:25:03.720 --> 01:25:05.119 time he got a lot of publicity in this market 1535 01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:06.920 was when he got into some sort of a scuffle 1536 01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:10.319 with a fellow resident at the care center and that 1537 01:25:10.399 --> 01:25:12.760 resident fell, broke his hip and eventually died. And then 1538 01:25:12.880 --> 01:25:14.920 Vernon ended up being taken care of at home. And 1539 01:25:15.319 --> 01:25:18.720 I've heard that his family cared for him, especially Donna Ganya, 1540 01:25:19.840 --> 01:25:22.319 and I mean we haven't. I mean, you know,

it's 1541 01:25:22.479 --> 01:25:24.560 kind of it's not just cliche. I think it's genuine. 1542 01:25:24.640 --> 01:25:27.439 People say condolences to the family, But I do want 1543 01:25:27.479 --> 01:25:30.920 to before we end the show, make note of the 1544 01:25:31.039 --> 01:25:35.199 fact that his family, you know, stuck by him. Kathy 1545 01:25:35.279 --> 01:25:39.000 and Greg and Donya and Donna and others were there 1546 01:25:39.119 --> 01:25:41.680 to the absolute very end. And I don't have a 1547 01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:44.359 lot of details on his final days or anything like that. 1548 01:25:45.119 --> 01:25:46.880 But and I haven't seen the family talk about it 1549 01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:49.359 other than they were by his side to the end, 1550 01:25:49.399 --> 01:25:53.760 and Donna had especially taken on a real intensive role 1551 01:25:53.800 --> 01:25:55.439 in taking care of her dad during that time. Mick, 1552 01:25:55.520 --> 01:25:57.279 do you want to talk? And then I want to 1553 01:25:57.279 --> 01:25:58.760 go to Kenny because he's mentioned what a good family 1554 01:25:58.840 --> 01:26:01.800 men form. Was talk about the dynamic with Vern and 1555 01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:05.079 his kids, his daughters and his son and working in 1556 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:07.600 the office, Greg working as a wrestler, and what you've 1557 01:26:07.640 --> 01:26:11.439 heard in recent years about that dynamic, if anything, Well, in. 1558 01:26:11.520 --> 01:26:14.279 Recent years, you know, you talked about the Alzheimer's taking, 1559 01:26:14.680 --> 01:26:16.800 you know, taking the toll on Vern, and that is 1560 01:26:16.880 --> 01:26:20.520 such an insidious, insidious disease weight, I mean, you know, 1561 01:26:20.680 --> 01:26:23.279 and there's more and more public awareness about it, and 1562 01:26:23.479 --> 01:26:26.840 sad to say, a lot of the guys from Verne's era, 1563 01:26:27.680 --> 01:26:30.680 you know, are are having difficulty with that. And I know, 1564 01:26:31.079 --> 01:26:34.119 you know, I've heard through the grapevine from some pretty 1565 01:26:34.159 --> 01:26:37.640 reliable sources that over the past few years there were 1566 01:26:37.760 --> 01:26:40.720 times when it was a living hell, you know, going 1567 01:26:40.800 --> 01:26:43.520 through that, not just with Vern. I mean, he's the 1568 01:26:43.640 --> 01:26:47.520 example we're talking about, but again, it's insidious, and what 1569 01:26:47.680 --> 01:26:50.760 the family has to deal with when their caretaking is 1570 01:26:50.920 --> 01:26:55.600 just incredible. I know his kids were incredibly devoted to him. 1571 01:26:56.600 --> 01:26:59.640 They always were, and they always stood up for Vern. 1572 01:26:59.760 --> 01:27:03.319 They were always they were pr for Vern Gania. I mean, 1573 01:27:03.359 --> 01:27:06.279 I remember I had Donna on Saturday Night at Ringside, 1574 01:27:06.560 --> 01:27:10.720 and I had Kathy on Saturday Night of

Ringside, you know, 1575 01:27:10.880 --> 01:27:13.319 and a couple of times. And they were always the spokesman. 1576 01:27:13.600 --> 01:27:16.720 They were always defending Verne, they were always defending the AWA. 1577 01:27:17.439 --> 01:27:20.479 So the loyalty was always there. And of course Greg, 1578 01:27:20.520 --> 01:27:24.359 and it's really interesting. Greg occasionally now will refer to 1579 01:27:24.520 --> 01:27:26.720 Verne as my dad, but a lot of times he 1580 01:27:26.760 --> 01:27:29.520 always called them Vern over the years, and I thought 1581 01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:33.319 that was really really interesting. But certainly the respect that 1582 01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:37.920 he had for his father justifiably. I think they were 1583 01:27:37.960 --> 01:27:40.640 a very very tight knit family, and that goes to 1584 01:27:40.760 --> 01:27:44.119 the extended family too. Hear about the cousins and brothers 1585 01:27:44.199 --> 01:27:47.600 and relatives and everybody else, you know who just rallied 1586 01:27:47.640 --> 01:27:50.760 around Vern, you know, all those years, and especially in 1587 01:27:50.840 --> 01:27:54.439 the past few years. So the family dynamic I think 1588 01:27:54.560 --> 01:27:57.960 was beyond reproach. And when you say condolences to the 1589 01:27:58.039 --> 01:28:02.159 Gania family. I mean candolences, I mean doesn't even begin 1590 01:28:02.239 --> 01:28:04.399 to scratch the service. And I actually heard Greg on 1591 01:28:04.479 --> 01:28:08.680 a podcast yesterday, another podcast, and he was talking about 1592 01:28:08.720 --> 01:28:13.399 the outpouring from the public has just been unbelievable, beyond 1593 01:28:13.560 --> 01:28:18.680 his wildest imagination, the outpoint of love and affection for 1594 01:28:18.880 --> 01:28:22.720 vern Gania. So certainly a tight knit family. And I 1595 01:28:22.880 --> 01:28:24.680 just want to say one thing before we go about 1596 01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:30.039 working for vern Gania, and again, I did it for 1597 01:28:30.119 --> 01:28:32.439 a short time. And I've told you before all those 1598 01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:35.159 years that I worked for the AWA doing publicity and 1599 01:28:35.239 --> 01:28:39.720 everything else, which was from nineteen seventy three on, I 1600 01:28:40.079 --> 01:28:42.680 had not talked to vern Gania until nineteen eighty four, 1601 01:28:42.960 --> 01:28:44.800 if you can imagine that. I mean, so I'm doing 1602 01:28:44.840 --> 01:28:47.960 all this publicity for the newspapers and everything else, but 1603 01:28:48.119 --> 01:28:51.800 Wally Carver was my goal between So my real association 1604 01:28:52.000 --> 01:28:54.439 with Burne was from nineteen eighty four on, and then 1605 01:28:54.479 --> 01:28:57.279 of course in eighty seven when I started working out 1606 01:28:57.319 --> 01:29:00.840 at the Showboard lot of You know, there are a 1607 01:29:00.880 --> 01:29:02.600 lot of people say a lot of things about verne 1608 01:29:02.600 --> 01:29:04.279 Gania over the years, and you know, whether it's a 1609 01:29:04.359 --> 01:29:07.399 former employee or whatever. I mean, Vern had his courts, 1610 01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:10.800 you know, as the business was changing and everything else. 1611 01:29:11.399 --> 01:29:13.520 But I got to say, I mean, and you know, 1612 01:29:13.640 --> 01:29:16.079 I'm getting up there too. I'm in the Greg Gania, 1613 01:29:16.119 --> 01:29:21.640 Jim Bronzel, you know age area. And for me, a 1614 01:29:21.760 --> 01:29:24.920 kid of nine years old back in you know, in 1615 01:29:25.119 --> 01:29:28.319 nineteen sixty getting on a ring apron and getting vern 1616 01:29:28.399 --> 01:29:33.079 Gania's autograph and then having the opportunity to work for 1617 01:29:33.199 --> 01:29:36.399 him twenty seven years later, I mean, vern Gani was 1618 01:29:36.439 --> 01:29:38.880 my hero. I mean, vern Gania and Harmon Killerbrew were 1619 01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:42.399 my two sports heroes. And whatever you say about vern Gania, 1620 01:29:42.560 --> 01:29:44.239 and you know, I saw the temper, I saw the 1621 01:29:44.319 --> 01:29:46.960 good side, I saw the bad side. I was blessed. 1622 01:29:47.079 --> 01:29:50.520 I was absolutely blessed and honored. And it was a 1623 01:29:50.960 --> 01:29:54.880 privilege to at one time be an employee of verne Ganya. 1624 01:29:55.680 --> 01:29:57.800 And you know, I would just say to any of 1625 01:29:57.880 --> 01:30:00.920 the young guys who you know, want study the history 1626 01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:03.920 of pro wrestling and find out what a real legend is, 1627 01:30:04.399 --> 01:30:07.800 look up vern Gania and I will be eternally grateful 1628 01:30:07.840 --> 01:30:11.319 to him and Greg for putting me on the payroll 1629 01:30:11.560 --> 01:30:15.079 and just working alongside vern Gania was it was a gift. 1630 01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:17.880 And I'm just I'm blessed. 1631 01:30:18.800 --> 01:30:21.319 Let's let's bring Kenny in for some final words. In 1632 01:30:21.359 --> 01:30:24.640 that regard to Kenny, talk talk about vern as you say, 1633 01:30:24.720 --> 01:30:27.279 as a family man and what you observed, whether it 1634 01:30:27.399 --> 01:30:29.680 was at one of his parties or at a show 1635 01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:32.319 when his family might have been around. And maybe even 1636 01:30:32.359 --> 01:30:34.800 talk about the dynamic with Vernon Greg and the loyalty 1637 01:30:34.840 --> 01:30:35.279 that was there. 1638 01:30:37.000 --> 01:30:43.640 Well, like I say, vern was, he loved wrestling. He 1639 01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:47.359 lived for wrestley. You know, he did it all his 1640 01:30:47.640 --> 01:30:51.199 life almost you know, once he started going to the 1641 01:30:51.279 --> 01:30:58.039 Limbicuse nineteen forty eight. He helped me so much, you know, 1642 01:30:58.560 --> 01:31:01.239 I mean I was a nobody, you know, I was 1643 01:31:01.279 --> 01:31:06.319 a

Kennidra shobbuster that came. I'm from holing Ford, a 1644 01:31:06.680 --> 01:31:10.159 farmer and uh. And when I came out of the Army, 1645 01:31:10.279 --> 01:31:14.119 I came here to work for Wally Carbo and then 1646 01:31:14.760 --> 01:31:17.840 Vernt Ghana got in there, you know, and they helped 1647 01:31:17.880 --> 01:31:20.199 me so much, you know, like I say, they got 1648 01:31:20.239 --> 01:31:23.560 me to go to Japan for a month here and 1649 01:31:23.840 --> 01:31:26.920 uh and then the guy got to Muhammad Ali and 1650 01:31:27.000 --> 01:31:29.680 they got me on the sixth Man. You know, I 1651 01:31:29.840 --> 01:31:34.439 got as nobody, you know, I never was. I never 1652 01:31:34.640 --> 01:31:37.640 did the amateur wrestling because my school didn't have it 1653 01:31:37.760 --> 01:31:42.920 in holy Ford. But I struggled and I loved wrestling 1654 01:31:43.000 --> 01:31:46.760 once I got going into into it in Milwaukee, you know. 1655 01:31:47.359 --> 01:31:50.000 And then when I finally got out of the Army 1656 01:31:50.039 --> 01:31:53.720 and I come here, and he really helped me. I mean, 1657 01:31:53.800 --> 01:31:58.159 Wally Carbo helped me. Bill, Bill Tarusha, I mean Bill, 1658 01:32:00.119 --> 01:32:04.399 he helped me, you know. Yeah, anytime I wanted to 1659 01:32:04.520 --> 01:32:07.119 go to Milwalk or something, you're there, you know, so, 1660 01:32:07.760 --> 01:32:10.520 you know I and that is good to stick in 1661 01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:13.600 my mind for the rest of my life, you know. 1662 01:32:14.239 --> 01:32:18.079 And I got Walla Carbo and Vern Ghania and all 1663 01:32:18.159 --> 01:32:21.279 the you know, all these guys to to thank you, 1664 01:32:21.720 --> 01:32:24.279 thank me, So I gotta thank them all, you know, 1665 01:32:24.560 --> 01:32:30.439 and thanks a lot, you know, uh Wayne for having 1666 01:32:30.520 --> 01:32:30.720 me on. 1667 01:32:31.279 --> 01:32:33.880 Absolutely, Kenny, it's and I'm just so pleased to were 1668 01:32:33.880 --> 01:32:37.000 able to join us. You were around Vern for so 1669 01:32:37.399 --> 01:32:39.279 so many years, and it's great to get a wrestler's 1670 01:32:39.319 --> 01:32:42.960 perspective somebody who h yeah, knew him as well as 1671 01:32:43.000 --> 01:32:45.119 you did and is as grateful towards what he did 1672 01:32:45.199 --> 01:32:47.239 for you as as you are. So thank you for 1673 01:32:47.319 --> 01:32:50.399 your time and sticking with us here. Thank you today. 1674 01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:58.880 Okay a lot, Yes, absolutely, Uh Mick, the Greg, the 1675 01:32:58.920 --> 01:33:02.319 Greg Gany Vern Gania di ynamic a little bit. How 1676 01:33:02.439 --> 01:33:05.479 how just talk a little bit about that and take 1677 01:33:05.520 --> 01:33:08.039 it where you want because Greg, you know, Vern a 1678 01:33:08.119 --> 01:33:10.319 top top star in the a w A a big draw. 1679 01:33:11.119 --> 01:33:15.039 Greg Gania ended up having a good, solid career

and 1680 01:33:15.239 --> 01:33:17.920 I still I talked to Steve Austin on his podcast 1681 01:33:18.079 --> 01:33:20.359 and multiple times when when he spent on my show, 1682 01:33:20.399 --> 01:33:22.479 I've been on his. We talked about how Greg Gania 1683 01:33:22.560 --> 01:33:25.279 is the prototypical guy in terms of a babyface, showing 1684 01:33:25.359 --> 01:33:29.039 fire and just getting the crowd riled up. Like I mean, 1685 01:33:29.079 --> 01:33:31.000 there's a lot of you know Greg, and that earnest 1686 01:33:31.079 --> 01:33:34.720 babyface promo is is something that's I won't say entirely 1687 01:33:34.800 --> 01:33:37.199 missing from the business today. I think Sammy's Ain actually 1688 01:33:37.239 --> 01:33:40.159 taps into it a little bit in NXT. But there's 1689 01:33:40.199 --> 01:33:41.880 a lot that Greg did well, but Greg lived in 1690 01:33:41.920 --> 01:33:45.000 the shadow of Vern, and Vern you know, took some 1691 01:33:45.119 --> 01:33:48.319 meat for promoting Greg, but he did stop short of 1692 01:33:48.359 --> 01:33:53.279 promoting Greg to the top. Thanks for downloading today's show. 1693 01:33:53.399 --> 01:33:55.520 Take it to the next level with a VIP membership. 1694 01:33:55.600 --> 01:33:58.439 Get shows like this the way Tiller prosing podcast, Weight Tiller, 1695 01:33:58.479 --> 01:34:01.279 Prosing post show, and the People Torch daily casts on 1696 01:34:01.399 --> 01:34:05.399 our pw Torch VIP podcast feed with ads and plugs 1697 01:34:05.479 --> 01:34:08.720 removed from the shows for a streamlined listening experience, and 1698 01:34:08.800 --> 01:34:11.039 also here the VIP exclusive shows that I host with 1699 01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:13.640 Rich Fan and Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan and 1700 01:34:13.720 --> 01:34:16.199 The Fix with Todd Martin signature VIP series that you're 1701 01:34:16.199 --> 01:34:19.199 missing out without a VIP membership, So go vip here 1702 01:34:19.279 --> 01:34:22.279 in twenty twenty two and enjoy all the benefits, all 1703 01:34:22.359 --> 01:34:25.520 the bonus content and the ad free listening experience. Pw 1704 01:34:25.760 --> 01:34:28.279 Torch dot com slash go vip. 1705 01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:34.359 You know, it's interesting, and I've always said Greg really 1706 01:34:34.439 --> 01:34:37.239 got a bum wrap. I mean he he does to 1707 01:34:37.359 --> 01:34:40.399 this day, you know, talking about you know, the nepotism 1708 01:34:40.479 --> 01:34:42.760 and everything else, and then Greg wouldn't have been a 1709 01:34:42.840 --> 01:34:45.640 star and another promotion. Well, you know, I guess there's 1710 01:34:45.680 --> 01:34:47.760 some truth to the fact that maybe he wouldn't have 1711 01:34:47.840 --> 01:34:51.000 been on top had he gone to another territory. But 1712 01:34:51.399 --> 01:34:55.000 to denigrate Greg's ability in the ring, I think is 1713 01:34:55.199 --> 01:34:58.199 really unfair. First of all, you got the size issue. 1714

01:34:58.560 --> 01:35:01.680 It was always odd. There's no credit, there's no believability here. 1715 01:35:01.720 --> 01:35:04.640 When you know Greg is tossing around Bobby Duncan, or 1716 01:35:04.680 --> 01:35:07.279 he's tossing around Jerry Blackwell or whoever. Well, you know 1717 01:35:07.479 --> 01:35:10.039 that's interesting because you got your Jeff Jarrett's and you 1718 01:35:10.159 --> 01:35:12.399 got your Kendall Wyndhams, and you know, you got guys 1719 01:35:12.520 --> 01:35:15.760 like that. You know that nobody really made an issue 1720 01:35:15.800 --> 01:35:18.520 out of it as far as the size the David 1721 01:35:18.560 --> 01:35:21.960 and Goliath situation. But Greg was one hell of a worker. 1722 01:35:22.119 --> 01:35:24.960 And you know, you talk about the ernest babyface and 1723 01:35:25.039 --> 01:35:27.640 that is absolutely a lost art. I agree with you. 1724 01:35:27.800 --> 01:35:31.640 I mean, everything is so scripted anyway. You know, nobody 1725 01:35:31.720 --> 01:35:34.640 really knows how to cut a serious baby face. I'm 1726 01:35:34.680 --> 01:35:37.399 going to get my revenge kind of promo anymore. They 1727 01:35:37.560 --> 01:35:41.800 just don't. So I think Greg really got a bomb wrap. 1728 01:35:41.920 --> 01:35:45.920 He sold his ass off for everybody. And you said 1729 01:35:46.119 --> 01:35:48.479 Vern didn't push him right to the top, you know, 1730 01:35:48.600 --> 01:35:50.439 he he came a little bit short of that. He 1731 01:35:50.479 --> 01:35:52.920 gave him the tag team titles with you know, with Brunzel, 1732 01:35:53.520 --> 01:35:56.279 and of course he gave him the that international TV 1733 01:35:56.439 --> 01:35:58.960 title you know, towards the end of the AWA run there. 1734 01:35:59.199 --> 01:36:02.560 But Vern was hard enough not to put Greg right 1735 01:36:02.640 --> 01:36:05.039 at the top because I think that, you know, the 1736 01:36:05.239 --> 01:36:08.039 wrestling fans and especially as the business was changing, would 1737 01:36:08.039 --> 01:36:11.560 have just eaten them alive. Which is too bad because 1738 01:36:11.600 --> 01:36:13.399 some of Greg's You look at some of the matches 1739 01:36:13.439 --> 01:36:16.800 Greg had with Bockwinkle, you know, or even Blackwell or 1740 01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:20.359 Brody or anybody like that. And and Austin said, well, 1741 01:36:20.399 --> 01:36:24.279 the babyface showing fire. I mean, boy, you talk about 1742 01:36:24.319 --> 01:36:30.199 somebody believable. Greg was, so I think, and Greg took 1743 01:36:30.279 --> 01:36:32.840 it seriously. I mean, I gotta tell you, I worked, 1744 01:36:33.399 --> 01:36:36.039 you know the time that I was there. I saw 1745 01:36:36.640 --> 01:36:39.479 Greg in the locker room, and boy, I tell you what, 1746 01:36:39.640 --> 01:36:42.079 if you were an enhancement guy or somebody else that 1747 01:36:42.600 --> 01:36:46.000 weren't taking it seriously, he was all over you. And 1748 01:36:46.520 --> 01:36:49.039 you know, he defended the business, he defended his dad. 1749 01:36:49.119 --> 01:36:51.880 I think he was a great worker. And give her 1750 01:36:52.039 --> 01:36:54.600 credit for the fact that he didn't push Greg to 1751 01:36:54.720 --> 01:36:57.760 the moon. I think he gave him just enough. Greg 1752 01:36:57.880 --> 01:37:01.680 got tremendous fan response. Well, you know in this area, 1753 01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:04.439 don't you know, or around the country might not realize 1754 01:37:04.960 --> 01:37:09.079 just how over Ghanian Brunzell were. And you know, it's interesting, 1755 01:37:09.119 --> 01:37:10.640 you know, Greg and Jim are going to be getting 1756 01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:12.640 the you know, the Tag Team Award next year at 1757 01:37:12.680 --> 01:37:16.039 Cauliflower Alley, and I think that speaks volumes for the 1758 01:37:16.159 --> 01:37:20.239 recognition that Greg is is finally getting, you know, towards 1759 01:37:20.279 --> 01:37:23.119 the end there, you know, from the aw a, the 1760 01:37:23.119 --> 01:37:25.800 wheel started to come off a little bit, you know, 1761 01:37:25.880 --> 01:37:28.079 and Greg was kind of the face of the promotion 1762 01:37:28.199 --> 01:37:30.800 there towards the end. Again, I think the bad rap 1763 01:37:30.920 --> 01:37:34.239 started to follow him a little bit. But I got 1764 01:37:34.279 --> 01:37:36.159 nothing but respect for the guy, and I think Vern 1765 01:37:36.239 --> 01:37:39.520 handled him very very well, and I think Greg carried 1766 01:37:39.600 --> 01:37:43.239 himself well considering all the criticism he was getting. 1767 01:37:43.640 --> 01:37:45.840 My final topic for you, and you're certainly well going 1768 01:37:45.840 --> 01:37:48.479 to bring up anything that any topic that crossed your 1769 01:37:48.520 --> 01:37:49.960 mind that we didn't get to, right, didn't get to. 1770 01:37:50.079 --> 01:37:56.239 But Verne's most successful opponents, you know, Nick Bokwa comes 1771 01:37:56.279 --> 01:38:00.399 to mind instantly. Billy Robinson did tell you, like list 1772 01:38:00.640 --> 01:38:04.079 kind of in order who you think were the top 1773 01:38:04.199 --> 01:38:06.600 five or expand that list if you want to, who 1774 01:38:06.640 --> 01:38:09.760 were that? Who was a top tier of opponents whose 1775 01:38:09.840 --> 01:38:14.479 careers were defined by wrestling Vern and they helped define Verne's. 1776 01:38:14.199 --> 01:38:15.720 Career nineteen seconds. 1777 01:38:17.119 --> 01:38:22.399 Wow, that's really an interesting question, you know. I think 1778 01:38:22.520 --> 01:38:25.840 Nick certainly is right up there. I think mad Dog 1779 01:38:25.920 --> 01:38:29.840 was sewn. Mad Dog had a reputation, but certainly when 1780 01:38:29.840 --> 01:38:32.359 he won the strapped from Vernon in nineteen sixty four, 1781 01:38:32.760 --> 01:38:34.760 mad Dog was kind of a journeyman as far as 1782 01:38:34.840 --> 01:38:36.960

the aw A was concerned. Then all of a sudden, 1783 01:38:37.560 --> 01:38:40.159 you know, he gets the title and and the rest 1784 01:38:40.279 --> 01:38:44.039 is history. So I think he clearly benefited by you know, 1785 01:38:44.119 --> 01:38:48.720 getting the rubbed second Billy Robinson. Billy again, you know, 1786 01:38:48.800 --> 01:38:51.920 had a worldwide reputation, but again, you know, getting into 1787 01:38:51.960 --> 01:38:54.000 the ring, and it was always Vern when you're going 1788 01:38:54.039 --> 01:38:57.039 to defend the title against Billy Robinson, and you know, 1789 01:38:57.239 --> 01:38:59.640 this was in an era when Vern would get himself 1790 01:38:59.680 --> 01:39:02.279 this qualified. You know, you would go into the ring 1791 01:39:02.439 --> 01:39:05.159 is kind of the subtle heel a little bit against 1792 01:39:05.199 --> 01:39:09.239 guys like Billy Robinson and Bill Watts and Eduardo Carpontier 1793 01:39:09.319 --> 01:39:13.159 and guys like that. So I think Robinson definitely benefited 1794 01:39:13.199 --> 01:39:15.600 from it. I think some of the other guys were 1795 01:39:15.720 --> 01:39:19.640 probably established already, but you know, Bill Watts, I think 1796 01:39:19.760 --> 01:39:22.760 is another one that comes to mind. Crusher was already established. 1797 01:39:23.159 --> 01:39:25.439 But you know, I think, you know, just getting into 1798 01:39:25.439 --> 01:39:28.159 the ring with a guy like Vern, you know, certainly 1799 01:39:28.199 --> 01:39:31.039 put you over at his his top five opponents per 1800 01:39:31.119 --> 01:39:35.840 se feuds over the years, absolutely backwing and second with 1801 01:39:35.960 --> 01:39:40.079 Sean probably Crusher for a time when Crusher was a 1802 01:39:40.159 --> 01:39:45.119 heel dick buyer, doctor X, very very worthy opponent, you know, 1803 01:39:45.359 --> 01:39:48.159 and had tremendous feuds. And then you go back to 1804 01:39:48.239 --> 01:39:52.039 the nineteen fifties and Vernon Luces had a series of 1805 01:39:52.159 --> 01:39:56.560 matches all over the horns. So he was the real deal. 1806 01:39:56.760 --> 01:39:58.399 And what else can you say? 1807 01:39:59.079 --> 01:40:01.199 I know, on a person level, as this news broke, 1808 01:40:01.239 --> 01:40:03.359 I followed you on Facebook and this hit you hard. 1809 01:40:03.439 --> 01:40:06.359 I mean it was. It's not something I wouldn't say. 1810 01:40:06.359 --> 01:40:08.880 It was unexpected in the sense that he's eighty nine 1811 01:40:08.920 --> 01:40:10.840 years old suffering from Alzheimer's doesn't make a lot of 1812 01:40:10.880 --> 01:40:13.399 public appearances. And did I say he's eighty nine years old. 1813 01:40:13.479 --> 01:40:16.520 I mean, just statistically speaking, it's not the same thing 1814 01:40:16.600 --> 01:40:19.479 as as you know of thirty four year old getting 1815 01:40:19.520 --> 01:40:24.439 hit by a bus. That said, it's the absolute period 1816 01:40:24.600 --> 01:40:29.920 at the end of such a huge public figure in 1817 01:40:30.079 --> 01:40:33.560 your life as a fan, as you ease your way 1818 01:40:33.600 --> 01:40:36.960 into the business as the or in a different role 1819 01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:39.520 in the business as the Nick Bockwinkel fan club president 1820 01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:47.119 and putting out the excellent Blackwinkle Brigade newsletter and then 1821 01:40:47.359 --> 01:40:50.399 working for Vernon the AW I mean, just on a 1822 01:40:50.840 --> 01:40:53.439 personal level, not that it hasn't come through, but there 1823 01:40:53.560 --> 01:40:56.760 is something about the news that he is gone that clearly, 1824 01:40:56.960 --> 01:40:57.720 you know, hit you hard. 1825 01:41:00.239 --> 01:41:03.920 And what's really interesting, And I mentioned this to somebody 1826 01:41:04.000 --> 01:41:06.279 the other day to wait, you know, in life, we've 1827 01:41:06.359 --> 01:41:10.000 got there's constance that we hang on to, you know, 1828 01:41:10.199 --> 01:41:13.439 especially as you get older. And you know, even if 1829 01:41:13.479 --> 01:41:16.800 you don't see that constant or feel it every day, 1830 01:41:17.199 --> 01:41:20.000 it's still out there. And for me, you know, from 1831 01:41:20.039 --> 01:41:22.600 the time I'm nine years old as a wrestling fan 1832 01:41:22.720 --> 01:41:25.800 and then getting involved in the business, the one constant 1833 01:41:25.880 --> 01:41:29.159 has been burn Gania. Hearn's always been there, whether it's 1834 01:41:29.279 --> 01:41:32.640 you know, talking about my ESPN days or joking with 1835 01:41:32.720 --> 01:41:35.960 the guys about burn Gania and all of a sudden 1836 01:41:36.039 --> 01:41:39.000 what it is. It's it's the old mortality thing. It's 1837 01:41:39.079 --> 01:41:42.439 the finality of it. And for me, you know, I 1838 01:41:42.520 --> 01:41:45.039 mean I look at you know, over the past few years, 1839 01:41:45.079 --> 01:41:48.880 Billy Robinson, Mad Dograshan, the Crusher, I mean, these guys 1840 01:41:48.960 --> 01:41:51.960 that were mainstays in the AW A Red Bass Dean, 1841 01:41:52.720 --> 01:41:56.520 they're gone. Ray Stephens, They're they're gone, you know, from 1842 01:41:56.600 --> 01:41:59.319 that era, and you know, you go to Califlower Alley 1843 01:41:59.359 --> 01:42:01.720 Club and you see the Backwinkles and the Harley Races 1844 01:42:01.800 --> 01:42:04.239 of the world, and you know they're they're struggling, you know, 1845 01:42:04.359 --> 01:42:07.560 physically and mentally, and it's so it's the end of 1846 01:42:07.640 --> 01:42:10.439 an era. And for me personally, you said that, it 1847 01:42:10.560 --> 01:42:13.439 hit me hard, and it really wasn't unexpected because I 1848 01:42:13.479 --> 01:42:15.720 would always talk to people, how is Vern doing well? 1849 01:42:16.079 --> 01:42:18.279 You know, he's mentally he's not doing very well, but 1850 01:42:18.359 --> 01:42:20.359 physically he

could go on another ten years. I mean, 1851 01:42:20.439 --> 01:42:23.239 that was always the you know what people were saying 1852 01:42:23.359 --> 01:42:26.680 that were that were close to him. So when I 1853 01:42:26.760 --> 01:42:30.479 got the news, it wasn't totally unexpected. But what's happening 1854 01:42:30.560 --> 01:42:33.199 with me is that every day it's getting harder and harder, 1855 01:42:33.960 --> 01:42:36.960 and you know the reality is really setting in and 1856 01:42:37.399 --> 01:42:40.439 you know it's it's part of that childhood being plucked 1857 01:42:40.439 --> 01:42:44.039 away from that. You know, it's that there's another piece 1858 01:42:44.119 --> 01:42:47.079 torn away and another guy is gone. He belongs to 1859 01:42:47.159 --> 01:42:50.079 the ages now. So yeah, it's hitting me a lot 1860 01:42:50.239 --> 01:42:53.760 harder than I thought it would, and not because so 1861 01:42:53.880 --> 01:42:57.760 much that I worked with vern Gania. But because vern 1862 01:42:57.840 --> 01:43:02.000 Ganya was he was. Ninety percent of my life has 1863 01:43:02.079 --> 01:43:06.119 been somehow or another vern Gany has been involved. So yeah, 1864 01:43:06.199 --> 01:43:08.319 you know, whether as a fan or is it you know, 1865 01:43:08.439 --> 01:43:11.920 an employee, is of his or whatever. It's it's a 1866 01:43:12.000 --> 01:43:15.000 tough one. It's a it's a very tough one. Mick. 1867 01:43:15.079 --> 01:43:17.359 Do you had you heard over the last say, twenty 1868 01:43:17.439 --> 01:43:21.840 five years since the a WA went under. Was there 1869 01:43:21.840 --> 01:43:24.960 a stretch of time in the nineties where vern enjoyed 1870 01:43:25.159 --> 01:43:28.279 a quality of life where he got to reap the 1871 01:43:28.439 --> 01:43:31.399 rewards of the decades of hard work. I know there 1872 01:43:31.439 --> 01:43:35.600 were financial problems despite living the high life for decades, 1873 01:43:36.039 --> 01:43:38.680 But did you hear anything about what he did during 1874 01:43:38.800 --> 01:43:42.279 his healthier years mentally and physically after the a WA 1875 01:43:42.359 --> 01:43:42.800 went under? 1876 01:43:44.119 --> 01:43:46.399 You know, I really didn't hear a lot, and what 1877 01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:49.399 I did here wasn't necessarily great. I mean, only you 1878 01:43:49.439 --> 01:43:51.520 know you mentioned the financial problems. I know that there 1879 01:43:51.600 --> 01:43:55.680 was a vancrantcy situation, and you know, so he kind 1880 01:43:55.720 --> 01:43:58.840 of went under there. And then as early as you know, 1881 01:43:59.000 --> 01:44:02.600 maybe ten twelve years ago, he was already starting to 1882 01:44:02.640 --> 01:44:05.880 show the early signs of the dementia. So I'm not 1883 01:44:06.079 --> 01:44:10.159 so sure that you know, the vern ever really got 1884 01:44:10.319 --> 01:44:13.359 to enjoy the fruits of his labors all those years. 1885 01:44:13.800 --> 01:44:16.000 I'm

sure there was a time, but I, you know, 1886 01:44:16.279 --> 01:44:18.840 over the past twenty twenty five years, I don't know. 1887 01:44:19.079 --> 01:44:22.319 You know again, I wasn't there. You hear the negative stuff, 1888 01:44:23.039 --> 01:44:25.640 you know, so I obviously I don't know on a 1889 01:44:25.720 --> 01:44:28.560 personal note, how things were going with his family, et cetera, 1890 01:44:28.600 --> 01:44:31.079 et cetera. You hear the bad stuff. You hear the bankruptcies, 1891 01:44:31.159 --> 01:44:33.840 you hear the you know, the the dementia setting in. 1892 01:44:33.960 --> 01:44:36.800 You hear about all those kinds of things. So from 1893 01:44:36.840 --> 01:44:40.479 an outsider's perspective, I don't know. I don't know that 1894 01:44:40.600 --> 01:44:43.359 he I don't know that he got what he Let's 1895 01:44:43.359 --> 01:44:45.479 put it this way, I don't think he he got 1896 01:44:45.560 --> 01:44:48.359 what he earned. I think he, you know, Verne was 1897 01:44:48.560 --> 01:44:51.479 entitled to a better, better, last couple of decades. 1898 01:44:57.640 --> 01:45:00.920 I'm Kelly Wells, host of pw T Talk NXT, the 1899 01:45:01.039 --> 01:45:05.359 longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg, 1900 01:45:05.479 --> 01:45:08.880 Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night, 1901 01:45:09.319 --> 01:45:12.319 just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad, 1902 01:45:12.479 --> 01:45:14.359 and the ugly on the way to becoming a star 1903 01:45:14.479 --> 01:45:17.720 in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream 1904 01:45:17.800 --> 01:45:19.800 later wherever you get your podcasts. 1905 01:45:27.399 --> 01:45:30.880 I will say if there's a lesson in there for 1906 01:45:31.520 --> 01:45:35.479 the way Vern lived is took the summers off, played tennis. 1907 01:45:37.159 --> 01:45:42.600 He could have worked harder and earned more and he didn't. 1908 01:45:42.840 --> 01:45:44.479 And part of that comes from being the boss and 1909 01:45:44.600 --> 01:45:47.880 having that luxury. But I will say, at least we 1910 01:45:47.920 --> 01:45:51.119 don't look back at Vern going. He worked every single 1911 01:45:51.239 --> 01:45:54.399 day of his life tirelessly, never did anything because he 1912 01:45:54.640 --> 01:45:58.079 was thinking, in my sixties, that's or my seventies, you know, 1913 01:45:58.119 --> 01:45:59.680 my sixteen s Thirenty's always to be the golden years, 1914 01:45:59.720 --> 01:46:02.359 and that's you know, really the payoff will be. Mick, 1915 01:46:02.439 --> 01:46:05.359 I think it's fair to say Vern lived a really 1916 01:46:05.800 --> 01:46:09.319 good life, even with the stress and the disappointment of 1917 01:46:09.359 --> 01:46:11.600 the turn that the business took in the eighties. He 1918 01:46:11.960 --> 01:46:14.920 enjoyed life in the fifties, sixties, and seventies to a 1919 01:46:14.960 --> 01:46:16.840 great degree, to

the point where some people like were 1920 01:46:16.880 --> 01:46:19.680 critical of either how infrequently he was choosing to wrestle 1921 01:46:19.760 --> 01:46:21.479 or the time he took off in the summers. One 1922 01:46:21.520 --> 01:46:23.640 of the reasons Nick Bockwinkel stuck around even though he 1923 01:46:23.640 --> 01:46:25.159 could have earned more money in the NWA was a 1924 01:46:25.239 --> 01:46:27.840 quality of life issue working for the a WA. I 1925 01:46:27.880 --> 01:46:30.000 think Vern kind of was onto something with that and 1926 01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:32.119 there instead of being critical of that, I kind of 1927 01:46:32.159 --> 01:46:34.640 think some people should think maybe he's got the right idea. 1928 01:46:34.640 --> 01:46:36.359 A lot of people, you know, in different parts of 1929 01:46:36.399 --> 01:46:39.920 the world certainly take more leisure time out and Vern did, 1930 01:46:40.039 --> 01:46:42.399 And I think that's something that's a solace for people 1931 01:46:42.439 --> 01:46:45.439 who you know, feel bad that he didn't. Things took 1932 01:46:45.479 --> 01:46:48.359 a turn for the worse in his sixties, seventies and eighties. 1933 01:46:49.319 --> 01:46:51.760 He sure seemed to make sure he got the most 1934 01:46:51.800 --> 01:46:54.560 out of life in his twenty thirties, forties and fifties. 1935 01:46:55.880 --> 01:46:58.399 Oh, he absolutely did. And that's a great point. And 1936 01:46:58.520 --> 01:47:00.399 then you know you had met in the you know, 1937 01:47:00.479 --> 01:47:03.279 the last twenty twenty five years. Again, that's that's kind 1938 01:47:03.319 --> 01:47:05.119 of what things started to, you know, tail spin a 1939 01:47:05.159 --> 01:47:07.079 little bit, but my god, back in the day. Yeah, 1940 01:47:07.119 --> 01:47:08.960 and again, I think a lot of that has to 1941 01:47:09.039 --> 01:47:12.000 do with the celebrity, and Burne enjoyed every minute of that. 1942 01:47:12.520 --> 01:47:15.439 I mean, you know, on a on a social circle. 1943 01:47:15.560 --> 01:47:17.840 I mean, this guy is at everything. I mean, he 1944 01:47:18.039 --> 01:47:21.159 was as big. We talked about this earlier as any 1945 01:47:21.279 --> 01:47:24.760 athlete you know, in the state of Minnesota history probably, 1946 01:47:25.319 --> 01:47:28.399 and it's not hyperbole to say he was hob nobbing 1947 01:47:28.479 --> 01:47:31.119 with the politicians and the you know, the the high 1948 01:47:31.199 --> 01:47:33.800 rollers and whoever. It is. So, yeah, Verne had a 1949 01:47:33.880 --> 01:47:36.960 hell of a run. He had a great life. You know, 1950 01:47:37.159 --> 01:47:40.880 certainly he lived the life of luxury. He lived the 1951 01:47:40.920 --> 01:47:46.279 life of a very very very successful businessman, an entrepreneur 1952 01:47:46.479 --> 01:47:50.640 for a good portion of his life. And you know, so, yeah, certainly. 1953 01:47:50.760 --> 01:47:53.359 I mean the early part of his retirement or his 1954 01:47:53.920 --> 01:47:57.399 his waning years, I guess, were far better than the end. 1955 01:47:57.680 --> 01:48:00.920 And yeah, I mean he was a lucky guy. And 1956 01:48:02.000 --> 01:48:04.119 you know, it's just sad the way it turned out. 1957 01:48:04.159 --> 01:48:07.039 But to your point, oh yeah, he had some fun, 1958 01:48:07.239 --> 01:48:08.159 no doubt about. 1959 01:48:07.960 --> 01:48:11.000 It, Mick. I say it every time. It's such a 1960 01:48:11.000 --> 01:48:12.840 pleasure having you on. I figured we could go six 1961 01:48:12.920 --> 01:48:15.880 hours and not run out of things to talk about. 1962 01:48:16.319 --> 01:48:19.399 You are tremendous in this format and I really appreciate 1963 01:48:19.439 --> 01:48:21.760 you again giving us more than ninety minutes of your 1964 01:48:21.800 --> 01:48:24.920 time here and helping facilitate Kenny j being part of 1965 01:48:24.960 --> 01:48:27.479 the show. One of Hern's true contemporaries who is still 1966 01:48:27.520 --> 01:48:31.680 around and added a dimension of the show. So thank 1967 01:48:31.720 --> 01:48:32.239 you for all of that. 1968 01:48:33.640 --> 01:48:36.359 I really appreciate it. Wad and again, you know, thanks 1969 01:48:36.439 --> 01:48:39.239 for having me on. And Kenny J. Can't say enough 1970 01:48:39.319 --> 01:48:41.760 good things about Kenny My god, you know, he's almost 1971 01:48:41.960 --> 01:48:44.560 he's almost eighty years old and Kenny J is always 1972 01:48:44.600 --> 01:48:48.279 going to be Kenny J. And one more go ahead. 1973 01:48:48.520 --> 01:48:50.640 I just said yes, I was just nodding. 1974 01:48:50.560 --> 01:48:55.600 And and and also again, condolences to Greg and the 1975 01:48:55.640 --> 01:48:58.399 guy and your daughters and everybody else. And Vern's going 1976 01:48:58.439 --> 01:49:02.880 to be missed, and thanks for the opportunity. It's nice 1977 01:49:02.880 --> 01:49:04.039 to be able to talk about them. 1978 01:49:04.439 --> 01:49:07.680 Excellent thanks to our listeners for joining us. Certainly a 1979 01:49:07.720 --> 01:49:09.479 little bit off the beaten path, a little bit from 1980 01:49:09.520 --> 01:49:12.479 our usual format, but we've certainly gone to a w 1981 01:49:12.680 --> 01:49:17.600 a history and wrestling history at times with various various guests. 1982 01:49:17.720 --> 01:49:20.039 We've had Jerry jared On talking in depth about Memphis 1983 01:49:20.039 --> 01:49:22.640 wrestling and the promoting wars in the eighties, and and 1984 01:49:23.199 --> 01:49:26.399 Randy Hales from the Memphis territory and build Undie one 1985 01:49:26.439 --> 01:49:28.000 of our first guests when we went to the interview 1986 01:49:28.039 --> 01:49:31.880 Friday format. I enjoy talking wrestling history. It is I 1987 01:49:32.000 --> 01:49:36.840 feel like I know so little compared to the just 1988 01:49:37.279 --> 01:49:39.199 percentage wise of what there is to know about this 1989

01:49:39.279 --> 01:49:42.359 business and and being part of it and in the 1990 01:49:42.399 --> 01:49:43.800 way that I have been for so long. It is 1991 01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:47.119 always fascinating to connect some extra dots, add an extra 1992 01:49:47.239 --> 01:49:51.079 anecdote and learn a little something extra. I do from you, Mick, 1993 01:49:51.720 --> 01:49:55.000 I did from Kenny j and it is uh yeah, 1994 01:49:55.039 --> 01:49:58.239 it's it's amazing. How much how much better I think 1995 01:49:58.239 --> 01:50:01.760 I understand Verrngania today than ten twenty years ago, and 1996 01:50:01.880 --> 01:50:03.319 how much of that just came in the last few 1997 01:50:03.359 --> 01:50:03.720 days too. 1998 01:50:03.920 --> 01:50:07.239 So anyway, well, I appreciate the opportunity. 1999 01:50:07.439 --> 01:50:10.640 Yes, very good, Thank you, Mick, Thanks to our listeners. 2000 01:50:10.760 --> 01:50:13.239 I will sign off on that note. I did mention 2001 01:50:13.359 --> 01:50:15.680 VIP if somebody wants to go VIP and dig into 2002 01:50:15.720 --> 01:50:21.079 our twenty seven years of archives, including previous roundtable discussions, 2003 01:50:21.119 --> 01:50:25.159 including Mick Carsh's appearances on the Progressing Focus radio show 2004 01:50:25.239 --> 01:50:30.279 in the early nineteen nineties. Those were some really special shows. Mick, 2005 01:50:30.439 --> 01:50:32.640 if you're still there, remember the Wally Carbo tribute show 2006 01:50:32.680 --> 01:50:36.319 that we did on promos Focus. I would point people 2007 01:50:36.359 --> 01:50:39.520 to that. Wally Verne's business partner, what a character he was. 2008 01:50:40.319 --> 01:50:42.479 People want to, you know, if this era of wrestling 2009 01:50:42.560 --> 01:50:44.520 fascinates people, and the more you learn, the more you 2010 01:50:44.640 --> 01:50:48.920 want to know. The Wally Carbo tribute show on Progressing 2011 01:50:48.960 --> 01:50:51.600 Focus is part of the PW Torch VIP website archives. 2012 01:50:52.039 --> 01:50:54.760 Just go down to the Retro radio show's option on 2013 01:50:54.840 --> 01:50:58.079 the right sidebar on our members homepage and scroll down 2014 01:50:58.119 --> 01:51:02.800 to that. We had Roger ken Al Darusha, Jim Brunzell, 2015 01:51:02.960 --> 01:51:06.319 George Shier and of course biggest name of all, Nick 2016 01:51:06.359 --> 01:51:10.720 Bockwinkle as part of that discussion. It was just really 2017 01:51:10.840 --> 01:51:14.800 fun stories and just various times that Nick was in 2018 01:51:14.920 --> 01:51:17.279 studio I think a couple times and on the show others. 2019 01:51:17.319 --> 01:51:19.760 It was always real special to have Nick Backwinkle on 2020 01:51:19.840 --> 01:51:22.720 the Pros and Focus Show two. And anytime you and 2021 01:51:22.840 --> 01:51:25.039 George and the gang got together to talk old AWA, 2022 01:51:25.159 --> 01:51:29.760 the phone lines lit up, so that stuff is out there. 2023

01:51:29.800 --> 01:51:32.520 And we had Ken Resnick on the show just a 2024 01:51:32.560 --> 01:51:35.520 few months back earlier this year talking about his stay 2025 01:51:35.560 --> 01:51:38.479 in the AWA and he can fill in some of 2026 01:51:38.560 --> 01:51:42.279 the some stories about that era that he was part 2027 01:51:42.359 --> 01:51:46.479 of with the Road Warriors, post Hogan post verne Gania 2028 01:51:46.560 --> 01:51:49.239 as a headline Wrestler, but still working for the AWA 2029 01:51:49.319 --> 01:51:51.800 during that time, so there's a lot of resources out there. 2030 01:51:51.880 --> 01:51:54.039 And then Bruce Mitchell and I did a real time 2031 01:51:54.279 --> 01:51:58.079 commentary on the Wrestler movie from nineteen seventy four that 2032 01:51:58.239 --> 01:52:00.600 is in the Bruce Mitchell Audio Show archive. We have 2033 01:52:00.640 --> 01:52:02.640 a best of Bruce Mitchell Audio Show option that you 2034 01:52:02.680 --> 01:52:04.880 can choose on the drop menu for the different audio 2035 01:52:04.920 --> 01:52:07.239 shows on our main page. You can scroll down and 2036 01:52:07.359 --> 01:52:10.239 stream or download that show. We literally sat down, synced 2037 01:52:10.279 --> 01:52:12.960 up our TVs and watched the movie and just commented 2038 01:52:13.039 --> 01:52:15.840 on things you might not notice, what the success of 2039 01:52:15.880 --> 01:52:18.760 the movie, the acting, the different roles, Billy Robinson's history, 2040 01:52:18.840 --> 01:52:21.560 Verne's history. It's a really fun show. So again, for 2041 01:52:21.640 --> 01:52:23.880 people who made it this far in this discussion about Vern, 2042 01:52:24.239 --> 01:52:28.119 that's just a sampling of things that you can pull 2043 01:52:28.199 --> 01:52:30.359 out an audio format to add to it. This week's 2044 01:52:30.399 --> 01:52:33.640 Pressing Torch newsletter has a cover story that just touches 2045 01:52:33.680 --> 01:52:35.279 a surface of what Vern meant, but hits a lot 2046 01:52:35.319 --> 01:52:38.199 of the high points. And also my endotes editorial with 2047 01:52:38.279 --> 01:52:42.079 excerpts of that first Torch Talk where Vern opened my 2048 01:52:42.199 --> 01:52:45.359 eyes to how newsmaking and interview format could be, and 2049 01:52:45.640 --> 01:52:47.720 I pulled out some quotes from that in end notes 2050 01:52:47.720 --> 01:52:50.720 this week regarding Holk Coogan and Bruiser Brody and Vincic 2051 01:52:50.760 --> 01:52:54.000 Mann that are pretty interesting and poignant. So anyway, the 2052 01:52:54.079 --> 01:52:57.279 place go for vps pw torch dot com slash go VIP. 2053 01:52:57.720 --> 01:53:01.439 That's PW Torch dot com slash VIP. When you sign up, 2054 01:53:01.439 --> 01:53:03.039 it's ten bucks a month, twenty seven to fifty for 2055 01:53:03.079 --> 01:53:05.239 three months, or ninety nine dollars for a year, and 2056 01:53:05.359 --> 01:53:10.800 it unlocks the deepest, richest library of insider

wrestling coverage 2057 01:53:11.279 --> 01:53:14.479 in real time format. We covered it as it happened, 2058 01:53:14.960 --> 01:53:17.279 and you can get twenty seven years of archives over 2059 01:53:17.439 --> 01:53:20.760 well over a thousand issues with Persing Torch Newsletter, hundreds 2060 01:53:20.800 --> 01:53:24.479 and hundreds of hours of audio, contemporary and retro. It 2061 01:53:24.640 --> 01:53:27.119 is an amazing site to explore. I'm very proud of 2062 01:53:27.159 --> 01:53:29.600 what we built, and if you've enjoyed this discussion, you 2063 01:53:29.720 --> 01:53:34.359 will find I think, endless fascination in going VIP and 2064 01:53:34.399 --> 01:53:38.000 digging into those archives. Again. Thanks to mccarsh, thanks to 2065 01:53:38.079 --> 01:53:43.000 Kenny J. Thanks to the listeners, and also, as I 2066 01:53:43.000 --> 01:53:45.319 said in this week's prosing Torch Newsletter, thanks to vern Gania. 2067 01:53:45.800 --> 01:53:50.880 The awa lead his title reign and the retirement match 2068 01:53:50.960 --> 01:53:52.720 drew me to the building. I was already in love 2069 01:53:52.760 --> 01:53:55.319 with wrestling, but that just accelerated it, being in that 2070 01:53:55.640 --> 01:53:58.159 facility and getting a chance to get a taste of 2071 01:53:58.239 --> 01:54:01.399 that era at the tail end for the transition to 2072 01:54:01.560 --> 01:54:06.000 rock and wrestling, Hulk Cokean, wrestle Mania, the nationalization of wrestling. 2073 01:54:06.039 --> 01:54:09.000 To be able to get a glimpse and a taste 2074 01:54:09.399 --> 01:54:13.079 a very immersive and memorable and special taste of that 2075 01:54:13.319 --> 01:54:16.680 era reflective of the sixties and seventies was a really 2076 01:54:16.760 --> 01:54:19.720 neat opportunity for me. And heck thanks for Vern for 2077 01:54:20.800 --> 01:54:22.159 maybe he was duped into it or didn't know what 2078 01:54:22.159 --> 01:54:23.720 it was getting into, but for doing that interview with me. 2079 01:54:23.800 --> 01:54:25.439 He didn't have to do that, that first Torch Talk 2080 01:54:25.520 --> 01:54:28.119 with me, and that helped put progressing Torch and the 2081 01:54:28.159 --> 01:54:32.159 Torch Talk format on the map. And Yeah, I've had 2082 01:54:32.199 --> 01:54:34.560 I had a whole range of memories with Vern and 2083 01:54:35.000 --> 01:54:39.079 it was it was just amazing this week kind of 2084 01:54:39.199 --> 01:54:42.079 going through my mind all the different stages of how 2085 01:54:42.159 --> 01:54:45.680 I perceive Vern and how I experienced Vern as a fan, 2086 01:54:45.760 --> 01:54:49.840 as a journalist, and now looking back at his life 2087 01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:52.760 and his career. So quite the week and quite the show, 2088 01:54:52.960 --> 01:54:56.600 and again big thanks to mccarsh and also of course 2089 01:54:56.680 --> 01:54:59.960 Sodbuster Kenny J for their help in making this show 2090 01:55:00.279 --> 01:55:12.760 come

together. Until next time, wad Keller. Signing up a 2091 01:55:12.880 --> 01:55:15.239 POW Towards VIP membership doesn't just give you add free 2092 01:55:15.239 --> 01:55:17.159 access to these shows and a ton of other VIP 2093 01:55:17.279 --> 01:55:19.880 exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain access 2094 01:55:19.960 --> 01:55:24.079 to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our contemporaneous 2095 01:55:24.119 --> 01:55:26.640 week to week coverage through our progressing Torch weekly newsletters 2096 01:55:26.720 --> 01:55:29.319 dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with streaming 2097 01:55:29.359 --> 01:55:32.640 and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from 2098 01:55:32.640 --> 01:55:35.760 the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with wrestling's 2099 01:55:35.840 --> 01:55:39.600 top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast library 2100 01:55:39.680 --> 01:55:41.640 dating back to the year two thousand and three. 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01:58:36.640 --> 01:58:39.199 bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the 2157 01:58:39.319 --> 01:58:43.720 great matches and shows from around the world, be it US, Japan, 2158 01:58:44.079 --> 01:58:47.640 Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestlings past 2159 01:58:47.720 --> 01:58:50.760 and the paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows 2160 01:58:50.800 --> 01:58:54.039 such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious 2161 01:58:54.119 --> 01:58:57.199 career of Jusian thunder Lighter and our I Was There 2162 01:58:57.279 --> 01:58:59.600 When shows where our guests will join me to talk 2163 01:58:59.600 --> 01:59:02.119 about it classic bout that they were in attendance for. 2164 01:59:02.840 --> 01:59:05.279 We Love Variety and you can inspect lots of it 2165 01:59:05.520 --> 01:59:09.560 at the Progress Paradise. Detailed P two Torch VIP subscription 2166 01:59:09.720 --> 01:59:12.760 Information on a list of all the VIP benefits is 2167 01:59:12.800 --> 01:59:16.800 available at pwbrew Torch vip info dot com. And yes, 2168 01:59:17.119 --> 01:59:20.960 all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on 2169 01:59:21.119 --> 01:59:24.640 iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly 2170 01:59:24.680 --> 01:59:27.920 from our ad free VIP mobile site, See You in 2171 01:59:28.000 --> 01:59:28.640 the Paradise. 2172 01:59:30.359 --> 01:59:33.039 One benefit of VIP membership is access to our back 2173 01:59:33.119 --> 01:59:38.640 issue library, contemporaneous in depth insider reporting on pro wrestling 2174 01:59:39.079 --> 01:59:41.880 in real time over the past thirty plus years and 2175 01:59:41.960 --> 01:59:43.760 throughout the year twenty twenty two. We're going to begin 2176 01:59:43.840 --> 01:59:46.079 our march through the year two thousand and two with 2177 01:59:46.399 --> 01:59:51.000 back issues posted each week in PDF and all text formats. 2178 01:59:51.000 --> 01:59:52.600 You can read it in a PDF format with our 2179 01:59:52.640 --> 01:59:56.239 original magazine slash newsletter style layout on your screen and 2180 01:59:56.359 --> 01:59:59.479 flip through the pages, or you can read a straightforward 2181 01:59:59.560 --> 02:00:02.119 all tech format on your phone or tablet or laptop. 2182 02:00:02.319 --> 02:00:04.119 The back issues early in two thousand and two covered 2183 02:00:04.159 --> 02:00:06.439 the arrival of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, and Holkogan to 2184 02:00:06.680 --> 02:00:10.520 WWE and all the controversy that came with them, plus 2185 02:00:10.640 --> 02:00:13.520 my cover story that broke the news on the Plan 2186 02:00:13.640 --> 02:00:15.880 to Launch by Jerry and Jeff Jarrett of a promotion 2187 02:00:16.039 --> 02:00:19.840 called TNA. Also the early two thousand and two features 2188 02:00:19.840 --> 02:00:22.199 are two thousand and one Year in Review features including 2189 02:00:22.319 --> 02:00:26.439 ranking Pro Wrestling's most influential power brokers and our Torch 2190 02:00:26.640 --> 02:00:29.720 year end awards, the Year in Quotes, and the top 2191 02:00:29.960 --> 02:00:33.560 fifty stories ranked in order from the year two thousand 2192 02:00:33.600 --> 02:00:36.600 and one. So go vip and dive into our back issues. 2193 02:00:36.840 --> 02:00:39.000 We have most of our back issues available as soon 2194 02:00:39.039 --> 02:00:41.199 as you sign up, with new back issues week by 2195 02:00:41.239 --> 02:00:43.239 week from the year two thousand and two, one at 2196 02:00:43.279 --> 02:00:46.319 a time throughout the year twenty twenty two. PW torch 2197 02:00:46.359 --> 02:00:49.520 dot com slash go vip PW torch dot com slash 2198 02:00:49.600 --> 02:00:54.039 go vip. That's PW torch dot com. Slash go vip 2199 02:00:54.279 --> 02:00:57.560 for full information and our sign up form. It's more 2200 02:00:57.600 --> 02:01:01.960 than podcasts, it's an unmatched library of wrestling history spanning 2201 02:01:01.960 --> 02:01:04.279 more than three decades as soon as you sign up, 2202 02:01:04.319 --> 02:01:06.560 with more issues added throughout the year,