Full Transcript for Dr. Kyra Bobinet: The “Failure Industry” Is Rigging Your Brain Against You

00:04:50.810 --> 00:04:54.990 to do to survive. And before we go into any 70 00:04:55.509 --> 00:05:00.189 judgments of anybody, I want to say that myself, you, 71 00:05:01.029 --> 00:05:06.939 all of us are flawed. We have things where we 72 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:10.180 kind of sell ourselves out. Carolyn Mace, who I love 73 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:13.110 as an author, used to say that there's four main 74 00:05:13.269 --> 00:05:18.449 archetypes that everybody has, right? One of those being the prostitute, 75 00:05:18.829 --> 00:05:22.889 meaning that when it comes to our paid work, sometimes 76 00:05:23.329 --> 00:05:27.300 we make decisions because of the incentives to do things 77 00:05:27.339 --> 00:05:30.060 that we don't all the way believe in or want 78 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.480 to do. I am fortunate in my current situation that 79 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:36.680 I no longer have those things, but I know in 80 00:05:37.459 --> 00:05:41.379 earlier jobs, whether it was a retail job or a 81 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:45.550 waitressing job, which I sucked at. I sucked at. I 82 00:05:45.670 --> 00:05:48.550 could not remember somebody's request for ketchup like three or 83 00:05:48.589 --> 00:05:51.170 four times. And it wasn't, obviously it wasn't because I 84 00:05:51.209 --> 00:05:54.430 wasn't intelligent. I just didn't have that kind of intelligence 85 00:05:55.009 --> 00:05:57.879 to be able to do that job well. But anyway, 86 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.639 you know, we all kind of sacrifice on our way 87 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.939 to ourselves we try on different things. We try on 88 00:06:04.980 --> 00:06:07.500 different hats and we try on different roles and we 89 00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:10.160 put ourselves out there in ways that, you know, are 90 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:12.879 kind of awkward. And it's almost like the world is 91 00:06:12.899 --> 00:06:16.129 a casting agent. You know, a casting agent is somebody 92 00:06:16.209 --> 00:06:20.089 who looks at that, you know, person auditioning and says, 93 00:06:20.629 --> 00:06:23.189 can I believe them as the, you know, the lead 94 00:06:23.230 --> 00:06:25.730 role for this movie? Or do I think that they 95 00:06:25.769 --> 00:06:27.790 are more of a character actor, that kind of thing. 96 00:06:28.430 --> 00:06:34.600 So we are iterating our way through our health and 97 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:39.639 these industries that are locked in to, you know, putting 98 00:06:39.699 --> 00:06:42.040 us in win or lose states. What do I mean 99 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:45.139 by that? I mean, when you set a goal that 100 00:06:45.250 --> 00:06:47.730 I'm going to do this by this, and it's going 101 00:06:47.750 --> 00:06:49.769 to look like this, and I'm going to look fabulous, 102 00:06:49.790 --> 00:06:52.129 or I'm going to be super healthy. And then we 103 00:06:52.189 --> 00:06:55.310 fall short, which is 99% of the time, we fall 104 00:06:55.430 --> 00:06:59.649 short of that exact perfect vision. And we go about 105 00:06:59.689 --> 00:07:04.339 it that way, which is super rigid, super fragile, then 106 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:07.920 what happens is that we trip over our own brains. 107 00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:11.920 And so this being the Unstoppable Brain Podcast, we want 108 00:07:11.939 --> 00:07:14.779 to talk about what is it that's getting in our 109 00:07:15.060 --> 00:07:18.240 own way? What's it, what is it that's getting in 110 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.800 your way? And I'm willing to bet that you've had 111 00:07:21.819 --> 00:07:25.639 an experience where you set a goal of a smart goal, 112 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:29.120 for example, or a goal that you were tracking against. 113 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.139 And that By setting that goal, your planner told your doer, 114 00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:38.829 you better do this or you're going to fail. And 115 00:07:38.850 --> 00:07:43.329 the doer did its best. Or maybe forgot because it's 116 00:07:43.370 --> 00:07:45.410 not used to doing or it's not used to this 117 00:07:45.449 --> 00:07:48.790 particular thing. Or maybe it didn't like how the vegetables 118 00:07:48.810 --> 00:07:53.370 tasted or didn't like how it felt to sprint and run. 119 00:07:53.509 --> 00:07:57.370 Maybe it wanted to walk instead. But your planner was 120 00:07:57.589 --> 00:08:01.079 quite a tyrant. and forced the doer to do things 121 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:05.120 that it wasn't ready to do, didn't like doing, or 122 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:08.470 in some way wasn't sustainable. I give the example in 123 00:08:08.490 --> 00:08:11.410 a lot of my keynote speeches of, let's imagine a 124 00:08:11.449 --> 00:08:14.629 mother who wants to get in shape after she has 125 00:08:14.670 --> 00:08:17.350 a baby. And, you know, it's been a couple years, 126 00:08:17.490 --> 00:08:20.110 so she's got a toddler and she decides to join 127 00:08:20.149 --> 00:08:23.579 a gym. And in going to the gym, she finds 128 00:08:24.629 --> 00:08:27.720 dance class or a yoga class. And she's like, this 129 00:08:27.819 --> 00:08:31.079 is it. I've been waiting for this, this exercise type 130 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:34.480 my whole life. I, I'm enjoying it so, so much. Right. 131 00:08:35.139 --> 00:08:38.370 But then every time she goes, especially, you know, now 132 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:39.990 that we're getting into the time of the year when 133 00:08:40.029 --> 00:08:44.070 the sun is, sunlight is shorter, um, let's say that 134 00:08:44.110 --> 00:08:46.529 she gets off work at five, then she goes and 135 00:08:46.710 --> 00:08:49.549 picks up her kid from daycare. And then she takes 136 00:08:49.610 --> 00:08:52.870 the kid to the gym daycare. And then she goes 137 00:08:52.899 --> 00:08:55.090 to her exercise class and then she's feeling good, but 138 00:08:55.110 --> 00:08:57.830 then she comes back to the daycare center at the 139 00:08:57.850 --> 00:09:01.090 gym and her child is crying or her child

feels 140 00:09:01.169 --> 00:09:05.629 bad and she feels guilty. Mom guilt is real. It 141 00:09:06.350 --> 00:09:08.789 is real. I haven't heard of men talk about this 142 00:09:08.809 --> 00:09:10.960 too much. I'm sure they have their own version of this, 143 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:15.220 but mom guilt is very strong. And so what's going 144 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:20.000 to happen? That experience of I'm failing my kid. Maybe 145 00:09:20.019 --> 00:09:22.350 you don't feel like you're failing yourself as the mother 146 00:09:22.389 --> 00:09:25.629 going to the fun dance class or the yoga class. 147 00:09:26.090 --> 00:09:30.590 But over time, this area of the brain called the 148 00:09:30.649 --> 00:09:37.059 implicit memory system tracks kind of the win-loss scoreboard of 149 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:40.320 how something is going for us. And then guess who 150 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:47.019 is sitting in the background taking score judging and saying, 151 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:52.179 this isn't working out for us. The Habanula, my favorite friend. Now, 152 00:09:52.259 --> 00:09:54.289 I also have been listening to some podcasts lately of 153 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:58.230 some doctors and scientists who were trying to explain the 154 00:09:58.269 --> 00:10:01.870 world of, you know, this planner doer or the no 155 00:10:01.909 --> 00:10:03.580 do gap. Like I know what to do. I just 156 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:07.460 don't do it. Um, and trying to give us audience 157 00:10:07.860 --> 00:10:11.879 some insights into why that was. And there was a 158 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:14.659 couple of flaws. If I could be a little bit, um, 159 00:10:16.289 --> 00:10:19.600 critical of this because it's important to get this detail right. 160 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:23.000 Because if you don't understand your brain right, then you're 161 00:10:23.019 --> 00:10:26.159 going to be all kinds of confused and all kinds 162 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.080 of self-blaming and ashamed of yourself and feel like you 163 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:33.200 failed when in fact, it's just, you didn't have all 164 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.960 of the pictures. So I'm unpacking, I'm giving you the 165 00:10:37.019 --> 00:10:38.580 picture as I know it, because I think it's a 166 00:10:38.659 --> 00:10:42.700 more complete picture of how you go about these things 167 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.379 instead of going down the road where I've seen so 168 00:10:46.419 --> 00:10:50.759 many people, so many patients go, where it's just disappointment alley, 169 00:10:50.830 --> 00:10:55.429 it's just disappointment and failure and frustration and blame and 170 00:10:55.490 --> 00:10:59.330 judgment and shame and the whole negative experience. So I'm 171 00:10:59.350 --> 00:11:03.149 trying to protect you in this moment from having to 172 00:11:03.210 --> 00:11:07.440 do that anymore. I want to show you the way 173 00:11:07.700 --> 00:11:11.480 that is going to feel safer for your little timid, 174 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.620 ego yourself that is brave enough to even try something new, 175 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.679 that is brave enough and courageous enough to believe in yourself, 176 00:11:20.779 --> 00:11:25.759 to have hope even, to heal, to find healing, whether 177 00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:29.620 it is physical health or mental health, does not matter. 178 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.159 It is an act of courage to say, I don't 179 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.490 like where I'm at right now, and I'm going to 180 00:11:35.539 --> 00:11:40.129 put out effort and risk looking like a fool, risk 181 00:11:41.850 --> 00:11:45.509 risk looking like I wasted my time, risk facing my 182 00:11:45.629 --> 00:11:50.220 own inner judge to try something new. And so as 183 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:53.539 long as you're going to put out that effort, you 184 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:55.460 want to do it in a way that is safe, 185 00:11:56.019 --> 00:12:00.960 that is going to be not making things worse. And unfortunately, 186 00:12:00.980 --> 00:12:05.610 in our current understanding of behavior change, which is this 187 00:12:05.690 --> 00:12:12.179 goals and tracking world, we are unintentionally Can I emphasize that? 188 00:12:12.710 --> 00:12:19.590 Unintentionally hurting our patients, our clients, our friends, ourselves by 189 00:12:19.909 --> 00:12:24.049 using these methods that we think of as, well, it's 190 00:12:24.070 --> 00:12:26.549 either right or wrong, black or white. I won or 191 00:12:26.610 --> 00:12:28.809 I lost. I did it or I didn't do it. 192 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.559 If you find yourself with any of those evaluations on 193 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.919 your effort, meaning your effort is no longer a process, 194 00:12:38.019 --> 00:12:40.690 your effort no longer has any grace to it, your 195 00:12:40.769 --> 00:12:44.450 effort no longer has any self-compassion, and you're just running 196 00:12:44.610 --> 00:12:50.740 right into the worst possible version of your own self-judgment, 197 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:55.039 then I invite you to really understand me. Listen to 198 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:59.120 me now. That is not your fault. You are just 199 00:12:59.179 --> 00:13:03.620 in a society that is offering you the wrong medicine 200 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.210 for what you need. So what's the right medicine? Okay, 201 00:13:07.370 --> 00:13:11.090 this is the exciting part. I found this out because 202 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:13.590 I was one of these people who would spin and 203 00:13:13.690 --> 00:13:16.990 fail and set smart goals and wonder, is it just 204 00:13:17.090 --> 00:13:20.620 me or is everybody having this? But fortunately, I had 205 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:24.879 the very privileged position to be able to do large 206 00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:29.059 scale research with a lot of people. And I saw 207 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:31.750 the same thing in them. I saw that most of 208 00:13:31.789 -->

00:13:35.870 the time people would do well for the first couple 209 00:13:35.889 --> 00:13:39.600 of weeks, maybe the first month. Like think about the 210 00:13:39.700 --> 00:13:41.600 beginning of the year where everybody sets their New Year's 211 00:13:41.620 --> 00:13:45.279 resolutions or otherwise wants to change their lives, right? They 212 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.090 say about mid-February, it's all over. You know, the party's over. 213 00:13:49.570 --> 00:13:52.450 The gym equipment is now available again. The classes are 214 00:13:52.490 --> 00:13:57.129 not overcrowded, right? So that's six weeks of effort that 215 00:13:57.190 --> 00:13:59.929 people can kind of like grind and grit and, you know, 216 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.720 just force their way into a new life, which is 217 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:08.730 so admirable. It's so tragic to me that what they 218 00:14:08.769 --> 00:14:14.100 are trying is going to trip up their brain's habenula 219 00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:18.700 because they're choosing all that they have access to, which 220 00:14:18.820 --> 00:14:23.039 is a performative world, right? Whether that is, you know, 221 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:27.470 do this for 21 days. Here's a 21 day challenge. Well, 222 00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:31.110 what if I don't make 21 days? Failure, habenula trigger, 223 00:14:31.610 --> 00:14:36.169 motivation is killed. I quit. I then blame myself. I 224 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:41.669 then feel so bad inside for that, that I reach 225 00:14:41.710 --> 00:14:45.460 for something addictive. This is hibiscus tea, but you know, 226 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:50.879 I reach for something because the habanula puts the hurt 227 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:56.620 on me, is the source of my negative self-talk, of 228 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:01.860 me beating up myself. And so you can obviously recognize 229 00:15:01.899 --> 00:15:04.620 some of these things because you have been there. You 230 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.110 would not be listening to me right now You would 231 00:15:07.129 --> 00:15:10.450 not be encountering this new information had you not pay 232 00:15:10.490 --> 00:15:16.220 your dues and over and over again being churned in 233 00:15:16.250 --> 00:15:18.789 the failure industry. I call it the failure industry. It's 234 00:15:18.820 --> 00:15:22.779 like the diet industry, the healthcare industry in many ways, 235 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:27.940 the wellness industry, anything that would really set you up 236 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.940 to be dependent on them in order for you to 237 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:35.009 be well, in order for you to be healthy. And 238 00:15:35.230 --> 00:15:37.110 I guess one of the good things that's happening right 239 00:15:37.149 --> 00:15:41.679 now is that in our healthcare system, the sad part, 240 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:46.080 the tragic part is that there's so much cost jumping up. 241 00:15:47.179 --> 00:15:51.419 At the same time, there is clinician shortages. When was 242 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.009 the last time you could just pick up the phone 243 00:15:53.070 --> 00:15:56.230 or go online and book a doctor's appointment, not an 244 00:15:56.289 --> 00:15:59.850 emergency one, but like a regular doctor's appointment in the 245 00:15:59.950 --> 00:16:03.600 next couple of weeks, right? I literally, my horses, I 246 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:06.759 have horses and they have a dentist. And even in 247 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:10.379 that world, they're booking out three, four months and same 248 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:13.070 with the vet. And so there's just this kind of, 249 00:16:13.809 --> 00:16:17.129 there's a book called In Shitification, which I have not read, 250 00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:19.889 but I love the title of this because I want 251 00:16:19.909 --> 00:16:22.470 to call it out. Like we are in this world 252 00:16:22.549 --> 00:16:26.230 where it almost seems like there's a bunch of people full-time, 253 00:16:26.889 --> 00:16:31.029 low-key trying to make everything more difficult and everything more complicated. 254 00:16:31.529 --> 00:16:34.830 And so we are in this kind of failure field, 255 00:16:35.049 --> 00:16:38.710 if you will, that's so easy to fail. It's so 256 00:16:38.809 --> 00:16:45.659 default to fail instead of succeed. And success in performative 257 00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:49.779 methods is just, this is the literature talking, not me, 258 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:53.000 but there's so many studies that show that performance-based goals, 259 00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:58.750 performance-based goal orientation is really great if you have something 260 00:16:58.850 --> 00:17:01.419 short-lived that you're trying to do. Let's say I'm trying 261 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.980 to graduate high school or college. Once I do that, 262 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.160 you know, it's just this grind. It's just this push. 263 00:17:08.660 --> 00:17:10.619 And once I get myself to do that, then nobody 264 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.380 can take that degree away from me, right? And so 265 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:18.049 for things that are irreversible, things that are short-term, short-lived, 266 00:17:18.490 --> 00:17:20.710 and that are kind of like a push, a sprint, 267 00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:25.190 performance-based goals are great. It's like a sprinting kind of energy. 268 00:17:26.349 --> 00:17:30.759 But for most things that we try to change, We 269 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.460 are in a marathon. If you're talking about weight loss 270 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:40.049 or weight regulation, weight maintenance, that is a lifelong thing. 271 00:17:40.210 --> 00:17:42.970 I'm in a lifelong journey around that. And so is 272 00:17:43.029 --> 00:17:47.390 everybody else. If we're talking about our own mental health, 273 00:17:48.069 --> 00:17:51.509 life happens to us. We get hit down. We get 274 00:17:51.710 --> 00:17:57.720 leveled by life oftentimes. And so that mental health journey,

275 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:00.980 if you will, goes like this. It's just up and down, 276 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:05.740 even if you don't have genetic risk or propensity to 277 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:10.940 be more sensitive to mental illness, if you will, and 278 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:15.220 negative self-talks. So let's talk about habanula real quick. There's 279 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.670 a paper that I wanted to center on today because 280 00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:21.349 there's some new stuff coming out about the habanula. This 281 00:18:21.430 --> 00:18:27.250 is a paper in Nature Neuroscience in October of 2026. 282 00:18:27.250 --> 00:18:30.299 And the title of it is called Spatial Temporal Remodeling 283 00:18:30.339 --> 00:18:36.299 in Habenula, marks the onset of depression-related phenotypes. Lots of words, words, words, 284 00:18:36.339 --> 00:18:38.519 but let me break that down for you. Basically what 285 00:18:38.539 --> 00:18:44.869 they're looking at is that there is this buildup in animals, 286 00:18:45.109 --> 00:18:49.049 the test of the sun mice, animals where they stress 287 00:18:49.750 --> 00:18:57.619 the mouse by putting corticosteroid, right? So that's cortisol in 288 00:18:57.940 --> 00:19:01.359 their drinking water. So it's like they're not stressing them out, 289 00:19:01.420 --> 00:19:04.000 like poking them or torturing them or anything. They're just 290 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:08.069 giving them this steroids. Like if you have ever had inflammation, 291 00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:10.289 I had poison oak one time and I had to 292 00:19:10.349 --> 00:19:13.170 take steroids because it got so bad it was laughable. 293 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:17.269 And they put this in the drinking water. So that 294 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:20.329 makes them all super jacked and super stressed out, right? 295 00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:23.069 And then they look at their brains at various points, 296 00:19:23.809 --> 00:19:25.950 one in seven in 21 days, I think in this 297 00:19:26.730 --> 00:19:31.589 And eventually this type of thing leads to depression. Just 298 00:19:31.630 --> 00:19:35.279 like in our lives, in our bodies, what happens to 299 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:39.740 all mammals is that if you are stressed chronically long 300 00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:43.940 enough without any breaks, what it eventually leads to that 301 00:19:44.009 --> 00:19:49.269 we notice clinically is depression or even anxiety, something kind 302 00:19:49.289 --> 00:19:53.579 of chronic on the mood disorder kind of side of things, right? 303 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:58.680 And of course, this then leads to sometimes addictive behaviors, 304 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:05.859 whether it's the phone use, whether it is something more toxic, drugs, alcohol, nicotine, 305 00:20:05.900 --> 00:20:07.930 you know, things that are really going to kind of 306 00:20:07.970 --> 00:20:12.170 mess up your body, cancer risk, or mess up your relationships, whatever. 307 00:20:12.930 --> 00:20:17.279 So in this study, basically, they stress out these mice, 308 00:20:17.819 --> 00:20:19.980 and then they look at these different time points, and 309 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.519 they found that the big change that led from just, 310 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:27.859 you know, I'm stressed out, I'm super stressed out, I've 311 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:32.180 been stressed out for a while, that chronic stress flipping 312 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:39.299 and over into depression, clinical depression. Okay. So clinical depression 313 00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:41.200 doesn't come out of nowhere. It comes out of like 314 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.440 a buildup of stress is what this paper is saying. 315 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:51.960 And what's most important is that once the habenula goes off, 316 00:20:52.829 --> 00:20:56.990 that is the hallmark. That is the sign of correlating 317 00:20:57.130 --> 00:21:00.990 from the neural activity going from stress state, chronic stress rate, 318 00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:07.029 stress state to a Like I'm failing to just succeed 319 00:21:07.089 --> 00:21:11.569 here and depression comes in. What is depression? Depression is 320 00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:14.589 I'm failing at being me. I'm failing at whatever I'm 321 00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:17.750 trying or I failed in the past, right? So it 322 00:21:17.789 --> 00:21:22.109 takes a little while of this feeling of stress in 323 00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:25.470 order for the brain to kind of generate that conclusion. 324 00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:30.029 But once it does, the habenula is involved is what 325 00:21:30.069 --> 00:21:32.950 they're saying. And then the most interesting thing, for those 326 00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:35.730 of you who have followed my work or in the book, 327 00:21:36.009 --> 00:21:40.119 Unstoppable Brain, we talked about the ketamine treatment was showing 328 00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:43.019 early promises. And since the book came out, that's just 329 00:21:43.059 --> 00:21:46.779 gotten stronger, that evidence. So then what they did is 330 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:52.009 they gave ketamine when those changes started, when the chronic 331 00:21:52.049 --> 00:21:56.029 stress started to tip over into depression, and they were 332 00:21:56.250 --> 00:21:59.369 able to get rid of the depression. they were able 333 00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:04.869 to reverse the depressive behaviors. But if they waited too long, 334 00:22:04.970 --> 00:22:10.250 let's say that the depression was too hard-coded after a while, 335 00:22:10.269 --> 00:22:13.710 kind of like that, and then they gave the ketamine, 336 00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:17.490 it really didn't help to reverse. And this is something 337 00:22:17.569 --> 00:22:22.900 that we know in patients who have psychosis, patients who 338 00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:29.349 have bipolar, patients who have major depressive disorder, even anxiety disorder. 339 00:22:29.910 --> 00:22:33.970 The problem with

letting that go untreated is that it 340 00:22:34.069 --> 00:22:36.470 gets worse and it starts to kind of hard bake 341 00:22:37.190 --> 00:22:41.390 into the neurocircuitry of that brain. And it becomes more 342 00:22:41.450 --> 00:22:46.430 and more difficult to undo because the nature of the 343 00:22:46.490 --> 00:22:51.759 brain is neurons that fire together, wire together. And so 344 00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:55.000 they're forming all these relationships and these connections, these neural networks, 345 00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:57.099 and they're getting fatter and fatter and thicker and thicker. 346 00:22:57.730 --> 00:23:00.670 and more fast, more paved. I like to call those 347 00:23:00.750 --> 00:23:04.289 highways in the brain versus these little foot trails that 348 00:23:04.750 --> 00:23:09.390 are more temporary behaviors. And it starts to create a 349 00:23:09.490 --> 00:23:11.819 sense of, oh, this is who I am. If you've 350 00:23:11.859 --> 00:23:17.200 ever seen somebody who has been many years struggling with 351 00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:21.660 an addictive substance, they will even call themselves an addict. 352 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:24.599 Or people do this also who might have diabetes for 353 00:23:24.619 --> 00:23:27.819 a long time they might convert over to an identity 354 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:32.400 and they might call themselves a diabetic. It's not something 355 00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:36.609 that we as clinicians or people trying to help people 356 00:23:36.710 --> 00:23:41.329 to be free of these limitations want them to believe 357 00:23:41.369 --> 00:23:44.609 about themselves. It's just that if you leave that chronic 358 00:23:44.930 --> 00:23:50.259 stress burning for that long, for that on continuous without 359 00:23:50.339 --> 00:23:53.720 treating it, without doing anything about it except overeating or 360 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:57.180 trying to trying to numb out with phone use or whatever, 361 00:23:57.819 --> 00:24:04.240 then you literally wire the brain into that. Our brains 362 00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:10.799 are designed to rewire throughout our lives. Our choice is 363 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.160 where we want that to go. What we want to do, 364 00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:16.440 we want to be a passenger in that process and 365 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:20.309 just let it rip and just be almost like an 366 00:24:20.490 --> 00:24:25.329 animal trying to scratch an itch and just become So 367 00:24:25.349 --> 00:24:29.319 numbed out that we're not even here anymore. We're kind of, 368 00:24:29.369 --> 00:24:32.369 you know, not thinking our way through. We're not mindful 369 00:24:32.390 --> 00:24:34.869 about our lives. We're not enjoying our lives. We're just 370 00:24:34.910 --> 00:24:37.279 going from one thing to the other, trying to survive 371 00:24:37.339 --> 00:24:40.480 the next day. I once heard this really tragic thing 372 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.299 from a cashier at a store one time where she 373

00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.799 was talking to her coworker and she said, well, just 374 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:48.940 trying to, just trying to get through the day. Just, 375 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:51.490 it's just another day. Just kind of like, I'm trying 376 00:24:51.529 --> 00:24:54.380 to waste this day. I'm just trying to get through 377 00:24:54.460 --> 00:24:58.900 it because I'm bored, because my life doesn't mean anything. 378 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:02.940 And you don't have to have that. You don't have 379 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.670 to have that mindset. No matter what you do, there's 380 00:25:05.690 --> 00:25:08.549 an importance to it. No matter what role you're playing 381 00:25:08.569 --> 00:25:11.849 in this life, there's a dignity to that, whether that 382 00:25:11.890 --> 00:25:14.190 is a caregiving role, whether that is a parenting role, 383 00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:17.230 whether that is a teaching role or a student role. 384 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:20.819 or a cleanup role or a service role or a 385 00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:25.420 healer role, whatever your station in life, the most important 386 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.480 thing is that you are, you know, appreciating yourself for 387 00:25:29.529 --> 00:25:32.190 the effort that you're putting out. And heck, if it 388 00:25:32.230 --> 00:25:35.490 doesn't make you feel good to do it, then that 389 00:25:35.529 --> 00:25:40.309 might be a really screaming alert that your brain is 390 00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:43.589 telling you, like, this isn't for me. This isn't me. 391 00:25:43.829 --> 00:25:47.160 This isn't making me happy. And in fact, it's, playing 392 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:50.970 to my worst impulses to be in this kind of job. 393 00:25:51.009 --> 00:25:54.309 And one of the things that just shocks me is 394 00:25:54.390 --> 00:25:57.250 that each of us are different in our brains and 395 00:25:57.309 --> 00:26:01.089 what gives us joy and what gives us clarity and 396 00:26:01.130 --> 00:26:05.779 what gives us meaning that my sort of things that 397 00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:10.920 I like to do might be just unpleasant for somebody 398 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.480 else and vice versa. I don't really love detail stuff. 399 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:20.349 I don't love super detailed work, unless I'm like alone 400 00:26:20.369 --> 00:26:24.410 and I've got no time pressure. But other people, they 401 00:26:24.450 --> 00:26:26.349 love that and they hate what I do, which is 402 00:26:26.390 --> 00:26:29.619 like visioning and big picture and all that kind of stuff. 403 00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:32.339 So we're all different and we have to really play 404 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:36.380 to our strengths. So going back to this chronic stress thing, 405 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:42.990 what's happening is that the brain is telling itself in 406 00:26:43.049 --> 00:26:46.579 order to have stress that This is not working out 407 00:26:47.539 --> 00:26:53.309 for me. This is something's

wrong here. So there's a 408 00:26:53.349 --> 00:26:57.309 gap between my expectation of my experience and what I'm 409 00:26:57.410 --> 00:27:01.329 actually experiencing. And the brain is freaking out and releasing 410 00:27:01.829 --> 00:27:05.890 stress hormones, cortisol, into my bloodstream and making me feel 411 00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:09.500 really super amped and stressed because it's a flight or 412 00:27:09.539 --> 00:27:15.740 fight response, really. Freeze, fawn. And then if I do 413 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:18.720 that enough and I'm jacking my blood system, my bloodstream 414 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:21.220 with this cortisol enough, and my adrenals are just getting 415 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:25.259 like so pooped out, it's called adrenal fatigue. And, you know, 416 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.819 I don't have any parasympathetics going on, which is the 417 00:27:27.859 --> 00:27:30.779 kind of, you know, rest and digest message carried by 418 00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:34.539 the vagus nerve, the parasympathetics. And I've got, I'm just 419 00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:37.980 like fried. I'm frying my, I'm fragging my, my, my 420 00:27:38.019 --> 00:27:42.759 motherboard of my brain up here. And so in this, 421 00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:47.240 in this study, it really cautions us to think about 422 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:53.289 trying to calm down our habenula. Why is this important? 423 00:27:54.150 --> 00:27:56.250 So in these lectures that I was talking about before 424 00:27:56.430 --> 00:28:02.269 around different doctors and scientists talking about explanations for stress, 425 00:28:02.329 --> 00:28:04.529 you know, the kind of, you know, HLA access of 426 00:28:04.569 --> 00:28:10.910 stress hormones, that model, that's the pituitary and the thyroid 427 00:28:11.170 --> 00:28:14.460 and the adrenals kind of all regulating our sense of stress, 428 00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:18.599 which is true. It's true. It's incomplete because the habenula 429 00:28:18.619 --> 00:28:21.660 is in there kind of behind the scenes pulling all 430 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:26.130 the strings on that whole system. And there's another paper 431 00:28:26.170 --> 00:28:29.630 that I'll get into later on, which has to do 432 00:28:29.849 --> 00:28:36.769 with the habenula is controlling serotonin and dopamine in the 433 00:28:36.829 --> 00:28:40.640 human brain. So what is the implication of that? So 434 00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:46.569 that means that We, our reward system, how much pleasure 435 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:49.369 or pain we are having that we are in, how 436 00:28:49.410 --> 00:28:53.049 much motivation we have, how good or bad we feel 437 00:28:53.170 --> 00:28:59.309 is all being machinated by the habenula. And so that's 438 00:28:59.349 --> 00:29:02.049 a game changer. None of this talk that I heard 439 00:29:02.089 --> 00:29:05.569 about in these other podcasts about the amygdala, which you 440 00:29:05.609 --> 00:29:09.930 might've heard of, which is a wonderful alarm system. Think 441 00:29:09.970 --> 00:29:14.950 of the amygdala's line as that's scary. Okay. Whereas the 442 00:29:14.990 --> 00:29:18.079 habenula's line, if they were characters in a movie or 443 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.099 play is more like, that's not working out for me, 444 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:24.259 or that won't work out for me, or that's never 445 00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:28.140 worked out for me. And therefore abort, abort, abort, get 446 00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:33.029 out of here. You know, like reverse, stop trying, avoid 447 00:29:33.049 --> 00:29:36.309 that at all costs, nothing but pain there. Right. So 448 00:29:36.349 --> 00:29:38.890 that's the, that's the habenula. Oh, and by the way, 449 00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:41.680 you're the worst person in the world and all the 450 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:43.660 negative self-talk. And what about that thing you did when 451 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.680 you were in second grade? I mean, all of these 452 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.480 things that beats up on us is coming from the habenula. 453 00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:51.680 Why is it important to know that the habenula is 454 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.960 behind that versus the amygdala? This is a little bit 455 00:29:56.009 --> 00:29:58.750 of a nerdy question, but the reason why that's important 456 00:29:58.789 --> 00:30:01.930 is the habenula is is we know what turns it 457 00:30:02.029 --> 00:30:09.769 on and off. Negative emotions, negative beliefs, failure, I'm failing, 458 00:30:09.890 --> 00:30:13.769 I'm going to fail, right? I'm disappointed, I'm frustrated, I'm 459 00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:17.079 helpless here, I'm powerless to do anything. All of those 460 00:30:17.180 --> 00:30:22.079 things are what's called negative cognitions. Fancy word to say, 461 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:28.000 bad feelings, bad thoughts that flip this thing on. That's 462 00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:34.190 different as a metaphor. than the amygdala. The amygdala, it 463 00:30:34.210 --> 00:30:37.450 just seems like once it gets turned on, it's just 464 00:30:37.470 --> 00:30:41.369 going to freak out. And Alex Honnold, the guy who 465 00:30:41.390 --> 00:30:46.779 climbs the free climbs, the skyscrapers and doesn't somehow die yet, 466 00:30:46.819 --> 00:30:49.960 they've scanned his brain and his amygdala does not really work. 467 00:30:50.019 --> 00:30:56.279 It's very low reactive. Whereas somebody who's super anxious, super uppity, 468 00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:00.539 like my dog, my girl dog, is going to have 469 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:04.480 a pretty active amygdala. It's like, that's scary. That's scary. 470 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:07.319 You know, like little kids bump in the night, monsters 471 00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:11.259 under the bed, that kind of scary. And the promise 472 00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:15.609 of knowing what turns on and off the habenula gives 473 00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:18.890 us hope. It gives us a way out. It gives 474

00:31:18.950 --> 00:31:26.049 us freedom to free ourselves from the tyranny of failure, shame, 475 00:31:26.630 --> 00:31:32.029 and guilt. That's my hypothesis here. If you put together 476 00:31:32.230 --> 00:31:36.039 all these scientific studies and you put together exactly this 477 00:31:36.130 --> 00:31:39.900 moment of everything that we have right now, all of 478 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:43.980 it points to don't set yourself up to hit your habenula. 479 00:31:44.339 --> 00:31:48.619 Avoid that at all costs. Our habenula has a good 480 00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:50.839 role in our lives. It's to keep us alive, you know, 481 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.720 from touching the hot stove more than once or, you know, 482 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.680 driving too fast and possibly losing our life, you know, 483 00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:02.609 like It's keeping us alive, literally. But when we aspire 484 00:32:02.630 --> 00:32:05.450 to be something more than we are, when we want 485 00:32:05.569 --> 00:32:08.410 a way out of our childhood pain, when we want 486 00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:11.829 to heal things, when we want to release things, when 487 00:32:11.849 --> 00:32:14.279 we want to forgive things, when we want to get 488 00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:18.460 out of addiction cycles or things that are really self-sabotage, right? 489 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:22.519 The habenula is the most important thing that we have 490 00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:26.130 to think about, not the amygdala. The amygdala doesn't give 491 00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:29.410 us any information. It's just kind of like a very 492 00:32:29.490 --> 00:32:34.079 scared little friend over here that's saying, watch out, watch out. Habanula, 493 00:32:34.660 --> 00:32:37.660 we can do something about. We can turn it off. 494 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.980 We can say, oh, is that really true that I'm 495 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.019 failing or that I'm going to fail or that I 496 00:32:43.059 --> 00:32:49.109 have failed, right? We can cognitively quell it down. And 497 00:32:49.190 --> 00:32:51.109 there's even like, you know, a case to be made 498 00:32:51.150 --> 00:32:56.509 for ketamine and some of these electromagnetic therapies, psychotherapeutic therapies. 499 00:32:57.369 --> 00:33:01.650 whatever it is that's going to help chill out our 500 00:33:01.670 --> 00:33:06.529 habenula from being too hyper firing, hyperactive, it's called rapid 501 00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:11.069 firing or lightning firing in the literature, that should be 502 00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:15.230 our target. And so all these performative methods, if you're 503 00:33:15.250 --> 00:33:17.059 going to use them, because that's all there is out there, 504 00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:20.519 except for our software, which is designed around the habenula, 505 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.670 that's not a promotion thing, but it is free. It 506 00:33:23.730 --> 00:33:25.450 is a resource out there for you if you'd like 507 00:33:25.490 -->

00:33:27.890 to try it. But we have to do it ourselves 508 00:33:27.990 --> 00:33:31.769 is protect ourselves from our habenula. And the way you 509 00:33:31.809 --> 00:33:36.630 do that is you argue with yourself or you release 510 00:33:37.269 --> 00:33:40.150 thoughts and stories that your brain is telling you, your 511 00:33:40.170 --> 00:33:45.450 habenula is telling you that you are not going to succeed. 512 00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:49.740 And you question it and you give hope to it. 513 00:33:50.809 --> 00:33:53.130 And you find a way around it and you iterate 514 00:33:53.170 --> 00:33:55.589 your way through it so that your benula stays nice 515 00:33:55.650 --> 00:33:59.769 and quiet and sleepy like a little bear hibernating in 516 00:33:59.789 --> 00:34:05.450 the winter. And you have your clinical target there. I 517 00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:08.449 will talk some other time about iterative mindset because that 518 00:34:08.510 --> 00:34:12.590 is a really powerful medicine that I have found to 519 00:34:12.650 --> 00:34:18.030 be more powerful than other protective factors like self-efficacy, confidence, optimism. 520 00:34:20.349 --> 00:34:24.789 you know, learning-based goal, performance-based goals, all those kinds of 521 00:34:25.329 --> 00:34:28.730 things that we thought were kind of the grit, resilience, 522 00:34:29.170 --> 00:34:31.550 all those kinds of measures that we thought were the 523 00:34:31.590 --> 00:34:37.769 protective factors. This one is more strong and more reliable 524 00:34:38.489 --> 00:34:42.949 because it targets the habanula more directly than like a 525 00:34:43.070 --> 00:34:45.659 growth mindset or something like that. Those are all helpful 526 00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:49.059 because in every case, anything that works is working for 527 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.659 your habenula. If you think about it, anything that works 528 00:34:52.699 --> 00:34:55.260 for you to get you to do the thing where 529 00:34:55.300 --> 00:34:57.809 your planner is able to be effective at getting your 530 00:34:57.869 --> 00:35:01.949 doer to, you know, take a chance and do something 531 00:35:02.010 --> 00:35:05.010 and not be judged, you know, is because you are 532 00:35:05.050 --> 00:35:08.590 protecting yourself from the habenula. You're either saying to yourself, well, 533 00:35:09.070 --> 00:35:11.280 tomorrow's a new day, or I'm going to give myself 534 00:35:11.340 --> 00:35:14.739 grace just now, or, It doesn't matter if it's not perfect. 535 00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:17.510 All that matters is that I tried. Whatever those are, 536 00:35:17.570 --> 00:35:23.369 those are protective beliefs and expectations that protect you from 537 00:35:23.409 --> 00:35:25.769 your habenula. And every clinician that I talked to, I 538 00:35:25.809 --> 00:35:29.369 talked to 200 clinicians a couple weeks ago, and I said, 539 00:35:29.510 --> 00:35:33.389 anything that you do good for your patient, you didn't 540 00:35:33.429 --> 00:35:35.860 know it until now, but you are doing that to 541 00:35:35.900 --> 00:35:38.900 protect them from their habenula. So that's the whole ballgame. 542 00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:41.960 That is the whole ballgame. And by the way, when 543 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:46.179 I say Habanula, I mean Habanula Complex, aka Anti-Reward Pathway. 544 00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:48.699 For those of you who are really up on the 545 00:35:48.739 --> 00:35:51.260 literature and are super nerdy like me, I just want 546 00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:52.719 you to know that I know that you know that 547 00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:56.000 that's really the language that's used, but I'm using Habanula 548 00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.949 as a cheat code, as a short code to be 549 00:35:58.969 --> 00:36:01.630 able to talk about this more fluently. So I hope 550 00:36:01.670 --> 00:36:05.289 I've convinced you. I've convinced you of two things. One 551 00:36:05.449 --> 00:36:08.869 is that you didn't do anything wrong this whole time. 552 00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:13.550 There is a whole big culture out there or an 553 00:36:13.769 --> 00:36:17.130 industry out there, put it that way, an economy out 554 00:36:17.150 --> 00:36:23.969 there that is unfortunately set up to benefit from your failure, 555 00:36:24.949 --> 00:36:28.780 from you becoming weaker. And I don't want that for you. 556 00:36:29.059 --> 00:36:31.119 And I know you don't want that for you. And 557 00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:34.139 so I'm showing you the doorway out of that world 558 00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:38.409 and into the world of your own empowerment and your 559 00:36:38.650 --> 00:36:45.929 own Unstoppability. Because I see you as whole, as able, 560 00:36:46.389 --> 00:36:50.909 as powerful. And I've known so many people who came 561 00:36:50.969 --> 00:36:55.630 back from hell, including my own family, who have come 562 00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:58.989 back from hell. And so I know it can be done. 563 00:36:59.809 --> 00:37:01.909 I myself have come back from different hells and I 564 00:37:01.969 --> 00:37:06.130 know it can be done. So believe in yourself. I 565 00:37:06.210 --> 00:37:09.760 hope I've convinced you, number two, of you are not 566 00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:14.400 a failure. You have no, there's no shame in what 567 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.559 you've done. Everything you've done has been get to where, 568 00:37:17.579 --> 00:37:22.199 to where you are now. Right? So no regrets. And 569 00:37:22.219 --> 00:37:26.570 there's no guilt because again, you didn't know if you 570 00:37:26.610 --> 00:37:29.769 hurt somebody else or you hurt yourself, you just didn't know. 571 00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:33.130 So you need to let that shit go as they say. 572 00:37:35.050 --> 00:37:39.630 So yeah, I hope I've convinced you. And, um, I'll 573 00:37:39.650 --> 00:37:41.449 see you on the next pod. We have a lot 574 00:37:41.469 --> 00:37:45.659 of awesome neuroscientists coming into the pod and really incredible 575 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:49.380 doctors this season. And I'm really looking forward to sharing 576 00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:53.099 all that with you. And yeah, thanks for joining me. 577 00:37:53.300 --> 00:37:56.119 And let me know in the comments or however you 578 00:37:56.139 --> 00:37:59.489 can to let me know if this made any difference 579 00:37:59.530 --> 00:38:01.849 for you, because I really want to know. And tell 580 00:38:01.869 --> 00:38:04.250 me your story. All right. Thank you. Till next time.