Full Transcript for A conversation with Randy Garnder, brother of executed prisoner Ronnie Gardner: Live Feed

00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:37.319 kids in the juvenile system back then. He escaped from 79 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:41.120 that place like seventeen times, and then all he wanted 80 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:42.480 to do. He just kept trying to come home to 81 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:44.519 his family because I just want to be with you guys, 82 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:45.959 you know, I don't want to be in this place. 83 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:49.600 And you know, but he was doing doing petty thefts 84 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.720 and stuff so he could survive and a lot of 85 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:53.279 the times he's been on the street at such a 86 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:53.800 young age. 87 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:57.879 So yeah, he never looking back. I don't think he 88 00:04:57.959 --> 00:04:59.319 never really had a chance, you know. 89 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.000 And as soon as he turned eighteen, he got arrested 90 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.480 by the adult course and he went straight to prison 91 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:08.199 from there. At that point, still doing a lot of 92 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.839 drugs in alcohol, and you know, when he went to 93 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:12.720 the state prison, all the people that he were locked 94 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:15.519 up in the juvenile system with they were all out there. 95 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.240 So it was kind of like, you know, Ronnie's second home, 96 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:18.639 you know. 97 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:22.639 So did he go to prison as a juvenile sentence 98 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.240 as an adult or did he go to prison as 99 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:25.639 a young adult The first time. 100 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:28.600 He went to prison as a young adult. 101 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:35.279 Soon as he turned eighteen, they he outpaced the juvenile system, 102 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:39.040 so he had a new charge and assault charge or something, 103 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.759 and they put him into the adult Utah State Prison. 104 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.079 How many times did he go to prison prior to 105 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:53.480 the nineteen eighty four case that landed him there for good? 106 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:56.000 He was, He was in there two or three times. 107 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:58.319 He actually escaped from the Utah He was an escape artist, 108 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.680 been escaping his whole since he was ten, eleven, twelve 109 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:02.199 years old. 110 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:04.600 No, no matter where they put him, he just come back. 111 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:06.839 And you know, I was always a person he called 112 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:09.600 a go to person, and you know, I'd hide him 113 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:12.120 out in my dad's house or my mom's house, orhoever 114 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:16.560 I was living with at the time. But he went 115 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.160 to prison before nineteen eighty four. I

think he went 116 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:23.000 nineteen seventy nine or nineteen eighty When he went the 117 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:28.600 first time. That crime happened in eighty four, so he 118 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.199 never really got out legally. He escaped and that's that's 119 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:36.000 exactly what happened to him when he when he shot 120 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:38.319 the bartender he was on escaped from the Utah State 121 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:41.279 Prison and decided to rob a bar and the guy 122 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:45.240 got rough with him an at screenberry guy and running 123 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.720 fought the guy off, and I mean a pretty terrible situation, 124 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.199 and he said he kind of blacked out, but he 125 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.279 I ended up shooting the guy right in a mustache. 126 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:57.480 I remember seeing the autopsy photos of the of the 127 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.959 guy or the gotten see photos. It's like, oh my god, 128 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.120 I can't believe he'd done that, Ronnie. But he got 129 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:07.279 caught shortly after that. Then in eighty five he was 130 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:11.759 trying it was going to trial on the on that 131 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:16.040 murder of the bartender, and he tried to escape from 132 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:19.319 the Metropolitan Haul of Justice, which we actually grew up. 133 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:21.199 It was right down town next to our house where 134 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.000 we lived, in the streets that we lived. So Ronnie 135 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:25.959 thought that'd be a good way to do it because 136 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:31.519 he knew the building. We watched him build that whole building, jail, courthouse, 137 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:33.839 the library, and that's all there used to be there. 138 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:37.680 But so he talked to someone and handed him a 139 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:41.000 girl handed him a gun and he got shot first 140 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:46.720 and he ran for him at the prison guards shot 141 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.199 him and then run away. They wapped off the way out, 142 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:51.240 and Ronnie's groan always told me they should have kept 143 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:53.399 shooting you know, he said it would have been over 144 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:55.680 and you know, they shouldn't let me go. But he 145 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:02.519 ended up shooting an attorney at that point, uh, running off, 146 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.120 he had a shoulder run he had shot in the shoulder, 147 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:07.519 running off and run up from stairs and shout a 148 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:11.199 bailiff and another guy jumped through a window was filling 149 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:12.160 the candy machines. 150 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:14.199 I mean, I'm sure terrorized that poor guy too. 151

00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:17.240 But they finally got running out on the front lawn 152 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.839 of the Meicpaul and the Hall of Justice and surrounded him. 153 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:22.920 And he was in his white prison clothes. And that's 154 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:25.480 the picture you'll see that you posted there that he 155 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.040 has blood on his on his wide outfit. 156 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:30.680 So you said he shot an attorney. Was that his 157 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:32.200 attorney or just some random attorney? 158 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:35.120 In course that that was a random attorney. 159 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.679 Later on down the road wrote his Uh, his father, 160 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:42.360 when it comes to the time to execute Ronnie, said, 161 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:45.960 do not execute Ronnie Lee Gardner because my son, my 162 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.759 son didn't believe in the death plane and he would 163 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:50.799 have been defending Ronnie, he says, So you know it's 164 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:51.960 not it's not Ronnie's fault. 165 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.440 They escaped, as the prison's fault. 166 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:53.679 Nobody. 167 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:57.919 He was an escape risk risk to you. 168 00:08:57.879 --> 00:08:59.679 Know, only have two guards on him, and they had 169 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:01.919 actually handcuffed him in front, he said, at the back. 170 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:05.720 And he has a whole his whole career, he's been escaping, 171 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:08.000 so you know, and I still believe that this day 172 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.240 that the prison should have had him, you know, under 173 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.039 lock and he knocked hands in front of him, or 174 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:15.440 someone could had him a gun. Yeah, it was. 175 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:21.120 So prior, prior to the UH the attend to escape 176 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:23.360 in the shooting. The attorney in court, had he been 177 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:28.120 diagnosed with any type of mental illnesses that you know of, you. 178 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:30.600 Know, he was never he was never diagnosed with a 179 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:31.360 mental illness. 180 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.639 I think after he got in prison and did a 181 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:36.799 couple of years, he realized that he probably was. That 182 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.720 he's self self diagnosed with ADHD or. 183 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:44.919 And he worked on that himself in prison. 184 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:48.399 I don't think Ronny, he's as crazy as he sound, 185 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:51.200 and some of the stuff he did, I don't think 186 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:55.120 there's you know, maybe post traumatic Schriss disorder, you know, 187 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:58.399 his stuff growing up, But I don't think he was 188 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:02.960 in a category of being mentally are having something wrong 189 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:04.799 with him. He was just a desp of kid, always 190 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:06.919 trying to get away, and I don't you know, and 191 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:08.799 I don't condone what Ronnie done. I don't make no 192 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:13.600 excuses for what he'd done, although in some aspects I 193 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.840 kind of helped him, helped him along, you know, when 194 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:18.759 he called me, I'd go to his rescue. And no 195 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:21.279 matter what age he was, you know, he met old 196 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.919 brother and ain't go help him get out. You know, 197 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.120 he escaped from the prison, like they said three times 198 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:30.480 and arrely unheard of in this prison. He was masterful 199 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.679 at it and they should have knew it. And you know, 200 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.840 that's that's behind us. But I think that's where the 201 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:40.639 real trouble started when they didn't, you know, And he's 202 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:42.559 seeing how leana they were on him when they were 203 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:45.559 transfer him a couple other times. So of course it 204 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:49.440 was his idea, and it wasn't his idea to shoot nobody. 205 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:51.159 He actually had at the courthouse. 206 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:53.919 He actually had the girl put duct cape and rope 207 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.000 and stuff in the bathroom. He didn't take the cop 208 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:59.679 and shoot him. 209 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:00.639 Instead of the girls who supposed to have that. 210 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:04.279 I've done tied to the water machine and Ronni every 211 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:06.159 time I went to Clody'd go to the water machine 212 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.360 and get some water, but the girl couldn't get it 213 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.679 hooked to that she handed the gun right to Ronnie backwards. 214 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.720 At this point, the prison guards seeing what was going on, 215 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:18.679 you know, and that's when they started, they backed up 216 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.799 out the doors and shot Ronnie one time and then 217 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.480 they just ran ran behind their cars, which is farther out, 218 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:28.679 you know, fifty feet away from when they shouldn't. Ron's right, 219 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.279 they should have just kept shooting him. You know, he 220 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:33.039 was still moving, he was still up. And it was 221 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.840 after that and he shot the Michael Bridell, which was 222 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:38.879 the attorney that was just in the archives room getting 223 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:43.799 some information. And I guess there was

another attorney also 224 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:46.639 with him in that room, but you know, he didn't 225 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:47.159 get shot. 226 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:49.600 But Ronnie just ran up some staircase. 227 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:54.360 They hurt the commotion in the building, came running down 228 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:57.559 the stairs and Ronnie shot him and I And honestly, 229 00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:59.480 I think Ronnie got the death. 230 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:01.320 Only for shoot and the bailiff. 231 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:04.320 Even though the bailiff didn't die, he did give him 232 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:06.799 some problems over the rest of his life. You know, 233 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:10.080 he lived to be another ten or fifteen years, I believe. 234 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:13.840 But because it was a police officer and the court system. 235 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:17.600 You Now, the States States don't like cock shooters, right. 236 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.759 I believe the prosecutors, you know, and everybody. 237 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:24.039 For the for the bailiff, they want to do it 238 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.039 with Michael Burdell, say, his dad, his dad's position on it. 239 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:30.879 Michael Burdell's position on it. He was very adamant about, 240 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.279 you know, not believing in the death and defended those 241 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:34.240 type of persons. 242 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:40.600 So so so what all pretty transpired after he got shot? 243 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:42.360 Like was he taken to the howkeet surgery? 244 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:43.159 How Like? 245 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.039 How was he how was he booked in the custody 246 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:46.159 after all of that happened? 247 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.240 What they chased him? They got him out on the 248 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.320 out on the front lawn of the metrical He made 249 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:55.759 it outside. Uh by then everybody heard his police station 250 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.519 in the court building. So everyone heard the commotion that 251 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.399 was going on, and so the cops everywhere. 252 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:04.519 But yeah, they just drew up ron Ronnie, you know, 253 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:06.120 out there and he still. 254 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.799 Had his his handcuffs on but there in front of him. 255 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:12.600 Just took him my arrested. She took him to a hospital. 256 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.759 And it wasn't non life threatening. I mean, it looks 257 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.080 pretty bad. But the anytime he gets shot has to 258 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.240 be bad. Uh. 259 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:23.320 Yeah, I just took him to the hospital and then 260 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:24.600 transfer him back to the prison. 261 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.440 And how how long until he was charged and convicted? 262 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:30.000 Like did he did he go through a trial or 263 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:30.960 did he take a p deal? 264 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:31.559 Like what all? 265 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:32.919 What all transparent there? 266 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.600 Uh? He took a plea deal on the bartender shooting 267 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:40.440 because that's where he was going to court for when 268 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:42.840 he tried to escape. So they took the plea deal 269 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:45.559 on that. I think that would have been a life 270 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:51.320 sentence probably. He took the other case to trial. It 271 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:53.960 was a pretty short trial. You know, it was pretty 272 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.600 pretty obviously what happened, and they had a lot of cameras, 273 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:58.600 a lot of stuff going on back then, and everybody, 274 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:01.080 you know, he found him out there on the law 275 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:02.960 and the witnesses. 276 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:07.360 Seen seen the whole thing. I know, the jury when they. 277 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.399 Deliberated only to deliberated about four hours, and you know 278 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.399 when they would they only deliberate four hours, you know 279 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:14.399 they're going to come back with a. 280 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:17.279 Guilty verdict, which they did. 281 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.559 I think his trial is only four or five days altogether. 282 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.320 So were you there? Were you president for all of that? 283 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:29.080 I was I was like Ronnie being locked up for 284 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.559 twenty five years in the adult system. Felt like I 285 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.159 was locked up in the system with him because I'm 286 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.159 always his go to guy, you know, and I'm made 287 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.320 sure he had everything he needed for twenty five years, 288 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.720 and basically feel like I did the time with him. 289 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:43.960 You know, a couple of those. 290 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.600 Other family members that were involved in his kids. Onnie 291 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.159 had two kids and you know they were they were 292 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:51.600 young kids when this all happened. 293 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:56.159 So after the sentence was handed down in court, how 294 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.159 did you react emotionally to them reading he was going 295 00:14:59.159 --> 00:14:59.919 to be executed. 296 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:06.279 Well, they had a second trial, which is a to 297 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:07.919 see if he gets to death pilling. That's what they 298 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.440 do in death pilty cases. And that was pretty quick 299 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.080 and that was just day and a

half. 300 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.240 A half, two days or something. 301 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.240 The death billing face of the get the death penalty, 302 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:24.840 you know what, I I thought that he would probably 303 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:26.919 never have to face it because we didn't have that 304 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:28.559 many executions in Utah. 305 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.360 I knew the bills, the process, you know, I would take. 306 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:34.039 Five or can or whatever years, and it ended up 307 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:38.360 taking twenty five. But it especially after so many years, 308 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:40.360 it didn't really feel like it was going to happen 309 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:45.679 anytime soon and when it finally did happen, it was 310 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:49.559 it was like a three month process of an execution 311 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:50.080 date and. 312 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:57.039 I just ended up, you know, carrying it out. So 313 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.600 did you did you visit him? 314 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:03.519 Yeah? Guy, Yeah, yeah, I visited him all the time. 315 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.879 My mom was alive then that she passed away actually 316 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.399 before he got executed, because that was I mean, she 317 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.960 was already broken woman because of my dad and died 318 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.320 when we were really young. 319 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:16.080 So yeah, we visited all the time. 320 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.600 It was through you know, glass. 321 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:22.080 In little in little rooms. 322 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:28.399 But he he just he was Ronnie actually ended up 323 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.039 pointing his life. And he was always actually good. He 324 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.159 was really good at giving advice but not taking it. 325 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:35.960 And that and a lot of people that Ronnie had 326 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:40.080 contact with he helped him and nurtured him through their lives, 327 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:41.720 you know, not not caring about what was going to 328 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.000 happen to him, but worrying about those type of people 329 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:47.159 as the kids and me and. 330 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:49.159 Is you know, a. 331 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:51.879 Baby mama, and you know, he had a few other friends. 332 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:54.159 But he was always giving us good advice and you guys, 333 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:56.080 you can't be doing that. And Randy, you tell me, 334 00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.799 I got you. 335 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:01.360 Know, I think my escape was out alcohol and drugs. 336 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.200 So for many many years, you know that why I 337 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:07.160 was going through this. I was going through it inegraded 338 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:14.680 on drugs, alcohol, whatever, you know, up until actually metter 339 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.160 a few years ago. I actually quit all that, you know, 340 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.039 I was I think that was my coping meins and 341 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.720 I didn't know any other way to deal with it 342 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:27.880 and running your selection me, Randy, you're drinking too much 343 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.119 or you know. Luckily I was able to run a 344 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:36.519 business for forty years. It's just a small business, so 345 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.119 I always thought I was very functional all I add it. 346 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.440 You know, I ended up a couple of years ago, 347 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:44.599 two and a half years ago, almost i'd finally just 348 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:48.480 quit it all. And I did get diagnosed with post 349 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:49.359 traumatic stress. 350 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:51.640 But about eight years ago. 351 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:57.720 Because of uh Running's execution, and you know, I was 352 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.160 able to obtain the autopsy photos I did in this 353 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.960 ring his execution, he knew it would be violent the 354 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.079 last few months or so, he said, Ranny, I'm not 355 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.640 gonna I'm not gonna let you go. You know, we 356 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.079 had this deal if it ever did happened, you know, 357 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:12.680 I was going to be there and attend then. So 358 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:15.119 we got a little fight over around. You told me 359 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:16.680 I can be there for you, and it goes, well, 360 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:18.680 it's's going to be you know, it's not gonna be 361 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.720 something you want to see. So I ordered the autopsy photos, 362 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:27.480 and about six years after I got ordered the original 363 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.000 just a autopsy report, and it was very very short 364 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.680 and just to the point, and didn't get no photos. 365 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:38.240 About six years later it ordered the rest of the 366 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.160 photos and and the whole CD of his whole autops 367 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.880 and everything, and it was it was pretty bad. 368 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:46.319 I see why he didn't want me to see him. 369 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:50.119 I did an interview with bright Snooze one time and 370 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.400 I was showing her the pictures and she was white, 371 00:18:54.680 --> 00:19:00.759 laying in the autopsy cable white. This is underwear, uh red, 372 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:03.359 like they put red underwear on him. I said, that's 373 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.440 that's the blood. There's blood soap. She was. She had 374 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.440 to stop the interviews. She just

freaked and freaked out 375 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:10.920 on it. And his socks, his white socks on were 376 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:13.400 totally soaked with blood. 377 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:18.400 Did you ever forgive Ronnie for what happened? Or was 378 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:19.960 it too difficult to do at the time. 379 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.599 I don't think. I think I forgive Ronnie. 380 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:32.119 My forgiveness is something I actually learned after the real 381 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:34.319 meaning of forgiveness after I got involved with some of 382 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.839 the anti definitely people around the world. But U took 383 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.119 Ronnie about fifteen years on death row for him even 384 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.519 to understand what he had done to people. You know, 385 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:45.920 he's just sitting there. I mean, I'm sure he was 386 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.799 that first fifteen years. He was looking for a way 387 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:53.480 to escape again, is what he always did. At some point, 388 00:19:53.599 --> 00:20:00.519 the the son of the bartender that he killed, visited 389 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.880 Ronnie and he told Ronnie that he forgive Ronnie. And 390 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.119 that's when Ronnie really realized that that's. 391 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:07.559 You know, that's. 392 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:13.839 Dad terrible, you know, terrible things that he don't and 393 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:18.599 you know, Ronnie took him, you know, him a lot 394 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:21.440 of years to forgive himself. And you know, and there's 395 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.400 gonna be people that say, what he chose the death 396 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.920 pen or the firing squad, And I think that was 397 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:31.000 in the beginning. That's because he shot somebody and he believed, 398 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:33.039 you know, an I for an eye. You know, hey, 399 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:34.759 I just shot somebody. You know, at least he'll be 400 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:38.720 quick and easy and you know when it does happen, 401 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:39.599 if it does happen. 402 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.000 A couple of times he changed his mind. 403 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.039 Over the period of the years, but he wasn't then 404 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.119 fathered in. And in the end, it's when we started 405 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.759 to have point comes with lethal injection, and I was 406 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.880 doing a lot of research for Ronnie on it, and 407 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.599 his lawyers were doing a lot of research on it, 408 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:00.759 and lethal jest, you know, was just covering up and 409 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.880 masking what have the execution actually done. And they're starting 410 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.720 to prove that more now than ever before that That's

411 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:08.759 that's what was happening. 412 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:12.079 So I think Roadie went into his grave thinking he 413 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:13.440 made the right choice. 414 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:19.680 We just recently had a doctor specialist looked at his 415 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:24.039 autopsy photos and the report. He said they absolutely did 416 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.559 not hit Ronnie's heart. And that's what I was worried 417 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.759 about when it first happened. They al mad at him, 418 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.559 their crops shooting. He's going to be on the firing 419 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:36.440 squad team that you know, the autopsy photos. You know, 420 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:39.599 I've seen the four holes in the in his chest. 421 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:42.079 I figured, well, I didn't think about nothing other than 422 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:43.680 there in his chest, by his heart. 423 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.559 You know, he probably died quit all of he didn't. 424 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.400 Someone someone wrote in a report that after forty seconds 425 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.240 after he was still moving his hand and moving his 426 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.519 fingers and something needs to do with his fingers. 427 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:56.960 So they even talked. 428 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.319 About firing a second round of four bullets send to 429 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.599 him before they pronounced him. 430 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:03.599 Finally pronounced him dead. 431 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.880 So and then to find out, you know, fifteen years later, 432 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:10.680 I just found this out recent recently, that they didn't 433 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:12.839 hit his heart. They went around his heart. And I 434 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:18.599 mean I seen him live after he after his executed. 435 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:24.000 Medical examiner's office called, or the funeral home called us 436 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.359 and asked us to if we wanted to see Ronnie 437 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:29.039 Wild Ronnie want us to see him. But I guess 438 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:30.599 you know, when we get a call from me and 439 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.480 you guys can spend some time with Ronnie if you want. 440 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:34.799 Before we crew made him. So we went down there. 441 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:39.440 I mean, he's two kids and baby mom and he 442 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:42.079 was in the in the medical the bag and who's 443 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:46.119 he just has his head sticking out. 444 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:49.759 So I asked, I told it my niece and. 445 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.440 Them to go to the other room to guess something, 446 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:54.319 look for an urn or something. And I wanted to 447 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:55.880 get him out of the room so I could actually 448 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:57.599 look at his chest. And I zipped the bag and 449 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.680 on his chest and looked at the holes on his 450 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.519 chest and it was like to me, it was like 451 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:06.839 they were bowing ball holes. They were that big. 452 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:09.160 There's four of instead of three. 453 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:13.279 But uh, I tried to zip it up really quick 454 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:16.279 and his daughter's daughter come up, Oh my god, freaking out. 455 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:19.759 I found it seeing it, you know, and she's still 456 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.000 to this day, you know, she's still pretty messed up. 457 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.920 She has never got over it now and you never 458 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:27.400 get over it. 459 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:28.039 And I'm never. 460 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:31.559 Gonna get over it because I keep fighting against it. 461 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:34.559 So you know, they say you get closer, and you know, 462 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:39.079 prosecutors even say, you know, once this person's executed, you're 463 00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:41.160 gonna get closure. You're gonna get you know, they lead 464 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.480 the people into believe in that. I don't think it's 465 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:48.680 a real thing. I think this is what busters promise, 466 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.720 making famine family members. 467 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.960 It's gonna happen, you know them, Sure. 468 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:56.400 Some do, you know, But I'm never gonna get that 469 00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:59.400 closure as long as I'm fighting against the death pility. 470 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:01.160 And that's my own choice. 471 00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.039 If I didn't fight, i'd probably be worse off than 472 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.039 what I am now. Luckily, I'm retired now and I 473 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.079 don't have a whole lot of responsibilities, so just take 474 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:13.880 care of myself. 475 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.000 So so talking about capital punishment. Right, how did you 476 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.279 feel about the death penalty, your brother being sent in 477 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:23.160 death row versus after him being on death row? 478 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.240 You know, not even though Ronnie I thought he believed 479 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.200 in it, I had a you know, I don't think 480 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.720 I ever really did believe in it, even as a kid. 481 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:34.839 Growing up about it. 482 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.599 You know, there was appointment and our life was rumors 483 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.640 growing up. I kind of knew that Ronning would end 484 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:44.880 up probably killing somebody in his life because he was 485 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:50.519 at that desperate that I guess crazy, you know,

not crazy, 486 00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:52.839 and I'm mentally just crazy to break out, you know, 487 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:58.519 And I don't think I ever really believed in it. 488 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:00.960 And I think of ron I knew what I knew now, 489 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:03.880 you know, the stuff that's happened. He wanted he wouldned 490 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:08.720 to have either. But it took me eight years after 491 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:12.759 Ronn was executed, could to forgive that the people that 492 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.559 executed Ronnie, because I was mad and the governor, you know, 493 00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:19.359 he said, well it was a little morbid, but and 494 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:20.160 I was. 495 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:21.920 I mean, I got I started. 496 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:24.599 Getting to the point where I'm gonna go get kidnapped 497 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.000 the governor's son and execute him. And you know that's 498 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:28.880 how crazy it was making me towards the inn, and 499 00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:30.680 I was for eight years. 500 00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:32.839 I had dreams of me executing. 501 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:38.200 Ronnie, and Ronnie executing me, executing my kids. And my 502 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:40.640 mom's had been in a week field chair for most 503 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:41.079 of her life. 504 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.319 She had grosses and me. 505 00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:46.799 Executing my mom and she's saying, why Randy Wise I 506 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:51.319 shooting the slow motion you know, explodes to my mom. 507 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:52.200 She has the bloods. 508 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:56.599 That's that's when I at that point I got diagnosed 509 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.839 with PTSD son I'm never disability. 510 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:04.440 Yeah. 511 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.559 Anyway, eight years into after that, I've been hanging around 512 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:08.519 with Journey. 513 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:09.519 I hope, from violence to healing. 514 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:13.720 I was on the board for eight years and I 515 00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:15.519 was hanging out with all these people that had their 516 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:22.160 family members murdered. And Maryetta Yeager like her daughter got murdered, 517 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.279 Bill Healthy, his grandma got dabbed thirty three times by 518 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.680 four girls that were fifteen years old. And these people 519 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:36.359 have been forgiven the person that committed the murdering. That's 520 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:39.200 you know. I always said I I can forget, but 521 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.960 I can't forgive. But anyway, I woke up one day 522 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:46.799 into it. It's like I finally got you know, I 523 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.559 don't have the right to judge these people. And you know, 524 00:26:49.880

--> 00:26:52.920 and I've always thought if I could find the executioners 525 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.799 that pulled the guns, met the bullets, messes with those people, 526 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.240 not think it does and you know it to hog 527 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.160 and say I'm sorry you had to be involved with this, 528 00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:07.000 I could probably do it. And even to this day, 529 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.279 I know it. I do know because of that what 530 00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:12.960 real forgiveness is. And I practiced it every day and 531 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:14.960 it's probably been the best thing that I've learned out 532 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.079 of this whole experience of my lifetime, is what real 533 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:22.000 forgiveness is. Ronnie, I don't think he got there, but 534 00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:22.680 I know he would have. 535 00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:23.599 He was all like me. 536 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:26.880 I just never got as desperate as him to do 537 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:28.519 the things he had to do, or I could. 538 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:31.680 Have very well ended up in the same position he's in. 539 00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:39.200 So how did his execution affect your family's relationship afterwards? 540 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:46.519 Well, it was, I mean, it happened so fast. 541 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.599 We were out there at the prison and I just 542 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:54.039 did adivigil for him. It was pretty chaotic, you know, 543 00:27:54.839 --> 00:28:00.440 Scott execution. And quite a few years years of course, 544 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:02.720 we had the first fire and there gilmore here in 545 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.480 seventy seven. That's when they ringstated the death and because 546 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:08.759 it was the first one to execute, so it was 547 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.599 pretty a big event. 548 00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:11.039 Looked like a big sur in the prison. 549 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.599 I mean, you know, we had a group of thirty 550 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.000 people or something. 551 00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.839 His lawyer. I remember his lawyers coming out. 552 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:26.720 Saying, well, he's he's gone, you know, and I think 553 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:29.559 we were all still and I've never done interviews for 554 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.039 first stages leading up to it. I probably did for interviews, 555 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.400 public interviews on TV. I've never done it. I'm still 556 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:37.920 not very good at it. I don't like doing it. 557 00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:41.960 But some of my family members were able to just 558 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:42.599 you know. 559 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:43.039 It's over. 560 00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:46.319 I could, you know, I couldn't. 561 00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:48.559 I feel like I would speak. 562 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:50.039 Brother, I didn't do things right. 563 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:53.640 It could have been that, you know. 564 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:56.640 So so yeah, the drinking with me is continued in 565 00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.480 the party and then whatever whatever I was doing. But 566 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:08.920 I think mostly mostly his two kids. It's the kids' baby, 567 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:11.839 mom and the a couple other people were really really 568 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.119 close to him. My family, brother, you know, we all were. 569 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:19.480 We had twenty one brothers and sisters, half step and real. 570 00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:23.119 My dad had kids from like six different women. My 571 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.960 mom had nine kids, so we had twenty and then 572 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:31.000 my two steps or three step brothers. But so we 573 00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:32.720 had a pretty big family, and that's part of what 574 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:33.799 was going on when we were growing up. 575 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:35.480 There was always so many kids there and our parents 576 00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:36.720 just being. 577 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:39.400 So poor, and I don't think they had a very 578 00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:42.359 good upbringing, either of my parents. So we didn't really 579 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.119 have too much supernal guidance over us. We kind of 580 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:48.440 got in a lot of trouble and could do a 581 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.160 lot of stuff and get away with it. And again 582 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:52.960 we thought stuff we were doing, we were got of 583 00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.559 shoplifting me and on it and stealing out of cars 584 00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.799 when we were four or five years old, six years old. 585 00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:01.079 It was just normal to us, you know, we didn't 586 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:02.119 even look at it this ceiling. 587 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:05.440 We just ransacked cars and our mom never knew when 588 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:09.000 we had one hundred flashlights, I'll never know. And that 589 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:12.640 was actually from that Metropolitan All of Justice in that area, 590 00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:15.400 so we were still in you know, and this went 591 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:17.319 on and on, but we were stealing from police cars. 592 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:19.920 We didn't care what it was, you know, we just 593 00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.119 we're entitled. I guess we thought we were entitled what 594 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:27.240 it comes down to nowadays, but yeah, you know it 595 00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:29.720 pretty well. It messed u It messed me up the 596 00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.279 most I believe. And his daughter, his daughter still hasn't recovered. 597 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.039 She's forty seven years old or something, and she's just 598 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:39.599 been going through rehab

and the whole work. 599 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.440 My dad, my dad, I love him. 600 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:43.960 I remember when I first brought those pictures out and 601 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.319 went public with him. She got so I tried to 602 00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:49.319 tell her that I needed to use these for the 603 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:51.880 for the for the cause and stuff. 604 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:53.039 And I don't want to see them. 605 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:53.359 Uncle. 606 00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.160 I don't want to see my brother dad's pictures, you know. 607 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:57.279 And now I do use them. 608 00:30:57.480 --> 00:30:59.599 I do use them, and I think when people see them, 609 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:02.559 you know, a lot of people don't want to see him, 610 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:04.000 but I have them available if they do. 611 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:05.680 And this is you know, it's barbaric. 612 00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.400 And uh, I don't think the government should be in 613 00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:13.240 the right of in the business of killing our citizens either. 614 00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:15.880 What either And I never have thought that or thought 615 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:19.440 any different. So yeah, back to the if I believed 616 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:21.599 in the death penalty, No, I don't think I ever. 617 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:24.359 I don't think there's ever a time I did really 618 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:27.319 believe in him. And it could be because I knew 619 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.839 Ronnie at some point he might kill somebody, because he'd 620 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:33.880 been that many crazy situations throughout his whole life before that. 621 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:38.799 So when he did, I was angry and mad. How 622 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.720 could you Runnie? And I mean we had some pretty good, 623 00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:45.519 actual physical fights before they called him back a jail. 624 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.720 I mean he got you know, that's the final star running. 625 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.160 You've messed up, you know. 626 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:53.400 I don't know. 627 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.400 So how do you personally want people to remember your brother? 628 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.279 Well, they're going to remember him for what he is, 629 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.759 because he was one of you know, for what it was. 630 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:11.640 That's you know, people abolition people, and they know that 631 00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:14.359 he was human and he and the worst thing he 632 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:15.920 ever did was not you know. 633 00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:16.839 Who he was. 634 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.160 I don't know if I can change too many people's mind. 635 00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:29.160 It's almost like a it's almost like a cult. People 636 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:32.119 either believe what I'm found out over here. People are 637 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:34.319 believe in the death million, and then if they don't, 638 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.079 then they'll look at the good that somebody does. If 639 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:41.559 they do, then that person was a monster and he 640 00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:43.599 should have been executed or not. There's not too many 641 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:46.279 people in the middle no more, you know. And it 642 00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:48.839 was a couple of years of dealing with this, fighting 643 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:51.559 against it, you know. I mean I literally got in 644 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.799 fights over physical fights with people and friends and people. 645 00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:56.759 Are your brother killed everybody. 646 00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:00.039 If I was out here, I'd kill him and I 647 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.319 literally got in a couple of physical fights and bars 648 00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.000 will always argue with people. 649 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:07.200 Took me a couple of years again. 650 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:11.240 With hanging around with anti definitely people and going across 651 00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:15.880 the United States and a couple of different countries just 652 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.759 over the last over the eight. 653 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:26.480 Years and fifteen years later. Sorry, a little much all 654 00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:31.799 at once. I don't know, don't. I don't think that. 655 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:32.599 I don't. 656 00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:35.400 I want him to remember him as a loving dad, 657 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.119 which he was from prison. I want him to remember 658 00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:42.119 of his good stuff. He was kindhearted, I mean stuff 659 00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.279 he did. I know he did it out of desperation. 660 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:50.160 Don't condone it wasn't right, you know. Same with most 661 00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.160 of the people on death row. They've had similar instances 662 00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:56.799 growing up as drawn he did. There absolutely is not 663 00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:00.640 one rich person on death row, and most of them 664 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:04.799 are mentally ill and they're still execute them. Most of 665 00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:07.880 them have been abused as kids, had terrible de Cybernie's 666 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.800 no different, heuronis. 667 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:08.960 You know. 668 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:13.280 People are asked me to even turn out like Ronnie, 669 00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:16.559 you know, and I think the only difference was I 670 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:18.480 was able to go to school and I liked school, 671 00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:23.199 and so I had that social skill right there. So 672 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:24.920 I went to school and I liked it and enjoyed it. 673 00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:28.360 Ronnie didn't you know. In the end, Ronnie was a 674

00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:32.280 very avid reader. I mean he read all the all 675 00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:35.960 the religious books and all the just a very avid read. 676 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:37.159 Taught youself to read. 677 00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:41.119 When I got his books after he was executed, I 678 00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:44.840 got literally hundreds of books that have been sent into 679 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:47.679 the prison court for him to read that we've sent 680 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:48.239 for him and his. 681 00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:55.239 Lawyers and other people. I just I just go with it. 682 00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:57.679 You know. The worst thing somebody does is not really 683 00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:03.480 who that person is. Yeah, serial killers, you know, they're 684 00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:04.840 probably the schizophrenical. 685 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:06.000 They're messed up. 686 00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:08.960 You know. I don't know. I don't even think. I 687 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.800 don't even think they should be executed. It's you know, 688 00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:14.480 like Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy died a martyr. He didn't 689 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.719 care in the end, you know, and he was killed. 690 00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:20.599 Some people there in Utah very familiar with his case, 691 00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:26.400 but I think he used to Definitely right now is 692 00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:32.039 very political. I think since the new administration has got 693 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:37.519 in in power, pro or Donald Trump is definitely pro 694 00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.320 killing people. He has no problem with it. He brought 695 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:46.199 back the federal executions that have we haven't had one 696 00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:48.719 in some amongst seventeen years. He brought that back in 697 00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:53.400 the last six months of his first administration. I was 698 00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:55.639 at a lot of those executions and vigils, you know, 699 00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:58.920 I think he executed thirteen of them. 700 00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:01.119 So I think it's really planned to call us all 701 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:02.119 a step backwards. 702 00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:04.920 You know. I've seen a lot of good movement when 703 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.639 I first got involved with it, and I really thought 704 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:10.880 I was by myself when this happened. I mean, I 705 00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:12.800 really didn't have anyone to talk to. My family I 706 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.360 could talk to to. They were as messed up as 707 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:18.119 I was. Just rough, you know, it got worse and 708 00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:21.719 worse for me. But I think they're reaching out and 709 00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:25.079 trying to find someone. Got on the internet, try to 710 00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:27.840 find someone who against the death building. And I thought 711 00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:29.599 it was a couple of hippies in the world. I 712 00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:33.960 didn't think Utall was a red state. We always had 713 00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:35.679 the death billing believed in them, and we were the 714 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:37.719 only state they were doing it by firing squad And 715 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:43.239 you know there's still they're still believe in that. I 716 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:46.159 just think that current administration is really taking us back 717 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:47.920 a lot of a lot of years, and I'm not 718 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:49.559 real happy with it. 719 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:52.440 What do you do? You know? 720 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:54.639 You know, some days I just don't want to fight 721 00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:57.599 it no more so I feel like I'm not doing nothing, at. 722 00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:58.960 Least in my time. 723 00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:01.880 You know. It's a backing my relationship with my kids 724 00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:04.320 over the years, because. 725 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:10.840 Taking taking a big part of my life. 726 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:12.800 Away and put it into instead of being the father 727 00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:16.639 I should have been, the abolists. The kids have even 728 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:21.000 told me Dad I was well, she was good as 729 00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:22.920 dad as he was fighting. 730 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:23.599 The death pity. 731 00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:29.400 Mhm. I got five good kids and I love them 732 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:31.840 all and they love me. But like I said, I 733 00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:35.880 did take away from being able to function normally because 734 00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:39.079 and still does in no sense. 735 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:41.199 Well that's good. 736 00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:44.639 Yeah, I'm sure it's a hard line between, you know, 737 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:47.360 being a father and then advocating for your brother who 738 00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:50.960 was executed for crimes he committed. I'm sure nobody can 739 00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:52.800 really speak on that unless they're in your shoes, you know. 740 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:55.719 So what do you think the public misunderstands about your 741 00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:56.519 brother the most? 742 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:06.000 I think, you know, I think they believe that you know. 743 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:08.440 Half the population probably still believes that you know. And 744 00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:13.239 people that kill people should you know, be killed. I 745 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:17.440 don't think I don't ground or religious grounds or I 746 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.159 don't see any grounds. I mean, I've lost so many 747 00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:23.840 friends over this, good friends because we couldn't agree to 748 00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:25.639 disagree on it normally I can do. 749 00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:26.400

You have the right to. 750 00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:29.920 Believe in the deafinity, I have the right not to, 751 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:33.800 with no sense in fighting over it. Same thing with politics, 752 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.000 you know, this is this is a lot to do 753 00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:40.519 with politics, and it's really I can see how they 754 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:45.400 they coexist with each other because most are most of 755 00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:48.559 the Republican people that I know that are hardcore Republican. 756 00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:49.559 Leaving the death penalty. 757 00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:52.960 Most of the Immocrat people are the middle of the 758 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:54.519 line people are independent people. 759 00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:56.960 Don't they call it. 760 00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:00.719 Liberals you know, don't don't believe in it. And I 761 00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:06.199 think one day we won't, we won't have a death penalty, 762 00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:09.199 but it's it's it's not put on the back burner, 763 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:12.559 you know. And then we got Florida executing fifteen people 764 00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.639 already this year, and you got I mean, this has 765 00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:18.280 never happened. It's almost doubled since the last ten years 766 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:20.599 what we've done this year, and this year is not 767 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:29.599 even over yet. I think he's conservative, not sir, that's 768 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.239 what I call him Ron Sandus or Abbott in Texas 769 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:36.599 or Donald Trump. I think they they believe they have 770 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:40.559 the right to kill people. And I don't think that 771 00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.840 I was sure that said. I think my daughter was 772 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.440 about six this year, said why do we kill people 773 00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:49.440 who kill people that show the killing is wrong? She's 774 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:51.119 six years old and she can read, and she looks 775 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:53.199 at me, she goes, I don't get a dad, why 776 00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:56.199 do we you know, see, at such a young age, 777 00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:59.199 it wasn't taught to believe that that's okay. 778 00:39:58.880 --> 00:39:59.599 And she knew it. 779 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:04.679 But you know, it's it's a it's a it's an 780 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:07.079 uphill fight, and. 781 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:09.880 I don't know where it's going. 782 00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.880 I know, I know some point, if this world lasts 783 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.559 that long, you know, we've got some crazy stuff going on. 784 00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:19.639 But if it does, I know into the death penalty, 785 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:22.239 and it's it's not like I'm wanting for it, it's 786 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:25.400 like I'm compelled to. And if I don't do something, 787 00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:28.039 you know, I don't want involved like I used to 788 00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:31.119 be and doing something eight times a year. 789 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:33.440 Now I can pick and choose, which I'm not on 790 00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:37.480 the board of the organization that's against the death penalty. 791 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.280 But if I don't do stuff, then I feel I 792 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.079 almost get sick, you know. So I feel better when 793 00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:48.480 I do do stuff. And I know I'm making a difference. 794 00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:50.760 If I can do a public speech and change one 795 00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:57.679 person's mind, you know, that's that's step in the right direction. Again, 796 00:40:57.719 --> 00:40:59.800 I'm no public speaker, and I never thought see my 797 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:01.039 of doing this in my life. 798 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:04.840 And I still don't like it, but. 799 00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:07.800 I do it. And stuff like this you know big, 800 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:10.239 you know, I like big events where it gets. 801 00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:12.320 We've got social media now. 802 00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:15.039 So I've been arrested on the steps in the United 803 00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:18.559 States Supreme Court two times on the steps, been arrested, 804 00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:21.960 and one time they won't even let us on the steps, 805 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:24.280 and they kick it to this. So I've been arrested 806 00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:28.320 in held for thirty six hours, forty hours Transford and Washington, 807 00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:28.559 d C. 808 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:32.159 To three or four different jails and treat you like garbage. 809 00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:35.000 And they put you in end up in a cell 810 00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:39.559 with thousands of cockroach, you know. And now I can 811 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.559 only imagine this event happens again in another two years, 812 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:43.480 I probably won't be doing it. 813 00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:44.599 I got my rights of passage. 814 00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:49.480 But late DC is now you can you get arrested 815 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:51.519 for civil disobedience, you might get killed. 816 00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:56.480 I don't know what's gonna happen, Jeff, he. 817 00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:58.880 Didn't die by now, in my opinion, he didn't die 818 00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:01.639 by suicide. 819 00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:04.159 Right right, Yeah, Yeah, A lot of people believe that 820 00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.360 he was killed, which I know. They released a video 821 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:09.360 recently and it was it was pretty sketchy, to say 822 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.719 the least. There was some parts that were missing, I believe. 823 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:16.039 Yeah, it's like a minute or two missing and there. 824 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:18.440 I mean, I've seen people

talk that have been in 825 00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.280 that exact jail and Benning and that sale, and he said, 826 00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:24.800 it just don't happen. Then cameras just don't start working 827 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:28.599 stop working at that exact, exact same time, and you know, 828 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:31.159 and it's like everything you know. I don't know if 829 00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:32.960 I have a hard time knowing the difference between what 830 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.880 fake news is and real news because there's so much 831 00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:37.480 of it out there. 832 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:40.519 But I don't know. I'm just gonna keep doing what 833 00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:40.800 I do. 834 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.840 I know. South Carolina is just they're going to execute 835 00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:46.039 another guy. They brought the firing squall squad back in 836 00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:48.519 this year. I think they've already executed three. So up 837 00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:51.719 until my brother when he was executed, up until they 838 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.320 had been fifteen years before anybody was executed by firing squad. 839 00:42:55.880 --> 00:42:58.039 That was kind of my goal. You know, well we're 840 00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:00.639 the only state that has that. You know, next what 841 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.159 I'm fighting for us. I don't want knowing else to 842 00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:06.039 feel like I felt. You know, an execution is an execution. 843 00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:09.519 But you know, they're getting worse. You know, I'm surprised 844 00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:13.119 they're not using guillotine or who knows, who knows what 845 00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:16.840 they're you know, they're gonna think of they're doing that 846 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.119 nitrous hypoxia, and that's almost like the gas chambers. You know, 847 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:26.159 they got Alabama and a couple other states are doing that. 848 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:31.599 These people are suffering. I got a doctor, Reverend Jeff Hood. 849 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.360 There's been a spiritual advisor for a bunch I think 850 00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:38.159 seven or eight or nine of these people that have 851 00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:40.880 been executed by gas and he's watching it, you know, 852 00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:41.719 and I feel. 853 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:43.840 That guy's gonna have a hard time. 854 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:45.400 He's doing it because he feels like they have to 855 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.360 have somebody with him. I have Jeff, but he's witnessed 856 00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:53.239 and stuff that you don't you haven't seen since Nazi journey. 857 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:56.480 You know, these people are the last one went my 858 00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:59.599 twenty nine minutes a guy two hundred and fifty breasts 859 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:02.280 or something fighting for his life and they're taking a 860 00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:05.280 given him ninth agen and taking the oxygen from his lungs. 861 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:08.519 And they got a gas mask. I mean, it's just it's. 862 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:10.400 Getting a little out of control, and this, you know, 863 00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:12.599 this whole world's kind of out of control right now. 864 00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:18.519 So So if you were approached by say somebody that 865 00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:20.719 that is, like a lawmaker in a state with the 866 00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:24.320 death penalty, what do you what would you recommend as 867 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.599 a deterrent to the death penalty? Say they were to 868 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:29.000 get rid of the death penalty, what would they do 869 00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:31.719 to ensure nobody ever gets out on appeals or whatever? 870 00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:31.920 Like? 871 00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:34.119 What what would you what would you say as a 872 00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:34.800 safe deterrent? 873 00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:40.519 Well, you know, and I've been asked that before my brother. 874 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:44.840 What it's you know, escape mountains on get throw but 875 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.159 from the prison right there. So I kind of have 876 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:50.079 a kind of torn about that because you know, people 877 00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:53.639 can't escape, so you can't one percent guarantee that. I 878 00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:57.719 think it's probably ninety nine to nine from now. You know, 879 00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:03.280 the way things, it's not a deterrent, you know, and 880 00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:04.800 that's supposed to be one of the main reasons we 881 00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:08.719 have the death penalty. It's definitely not a deterrent because 882 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:11.719 people that shoot somebody don't think that. They don't think 883 00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:14.360 about that. It's either some sort. 884 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:16.280 Of passion or or a serial killer. 885 00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:20.360 Usually it's just a split second decision where somebody killed somebody. 886 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:22.400 But so that's not a deterren I don't. 887 00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:26.039 I think it just makes killers out of us, and 888 00:45:26.119 --> 00:45:29.239 I don't want my caxibodies going towards it. I think 889 00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.360 it creates a whole new set of collateral damage. I 890 00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:34.840 used to say victims, and they always poor victim. You 891 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.519 your brother killed somebody, and now you've got your feelers hurt. 892 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:38.920 People tell you that kind of stuff. 893 00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.119 I since made that correctional wardens and wardens that are 894 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:47.199 now against the death penalty that have put people to 895 00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:49.400 death and say,

hey, this is not this is not 896 00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:54.880 good stuff. I'm jurors that sends people to die. They 897 00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:58.760 have to be capital, they have to be capital or 898 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:01.719 ready to have to be able to give a death. 899 00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:04.000 They have to believe in the death unty. They can't 900 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:05.960 not believe in the death billing. You get kicked on 901 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:08.800 a trial. I think a lot of them are having 902 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:12.599 problems after especially when they find innocent people that have 903 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:17.440 been executed or they you know, they made a bad 904 00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:19.960 that made a bad call. Our society is putting them 905 00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:23.159 in a deposition you get it wrong, and people that 906 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:25.199 you get it that you get it wrong if you're 907 00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.159 on death throwne. I never believe that because I know 908 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:30.320 everybody on death throw and you call it was probably 909 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:35.159 pretty I knew Ronnie was, but I also I'm in contact. 910 00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:38.039 You have friends. Out of the two hundred and whatever 911 00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:39.719 two and a little over two hundred people that have 912 00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:42.480 been exonerated, fifty of them are my friends. 913 00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:44.960 And I met these people and they came. 914 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:50.079 Their average time in prison was twenty twenty two years 915 00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:54.199 before they got exonerated. And now I believe they're oh, 916 00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.280 I know there, they've executed some innocent people and you 917 00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:58.639 can't bring them back from the death. 918 00:46:58.719 --> 00:46:59.639 So that's that's the kind of. 919 00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:02.360 Stuff would probably want to say to what the law 920 00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:06.400 lawmakers and up there understand. And I have to fight 921 00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:10.960 up in Utah and other states against it. Years ago, 922 00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:12.559 we actually almost would have passed. 923 00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:13.639 We would have we. 924 00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:16.519 Would have won it, and they they tabled the bill. 925 00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:18.599 They had enough folks in the House and they went 926 00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:20.760 through all the committee meetings here in Utah, and I 927 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:23.599 thought you tah the last places, but we almost it 928 00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:27.440 almost happened, and then huh, they tabled, didn't didn't take 929 00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:29.880 a final looecause they I think they were shocked and 930 00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:36.239 they were gonna in the death pally here in Utah. 931 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:39.159 Yeah, I just think you can't bring people back. You know. 932 00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:42.039 I have a friend that said, well, they execute one 933 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:45.280 and it's the person. Every once in a while, it's 934 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:47.760 still works. Most of the time. I think if they 935 00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:50.280 execute one instant person, it's broken. If you can't fit 936 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:51.840 to you shouldn't have it. 937 00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:57.920 Yeah, I agree, and I don't think it can be fixed. 938 00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:02.559 They tried to. They took it out nineteen seventies three 939 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:05.800 or whatever ended a you know, the Supreme Court did 940 00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:07.400 away with them in each state had to come back 941 00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:09.800 and make it right again. And that's when you tell 942 00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:12.920 ask Gary Gilmore. But you know, it's a broken system, 943 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:16.559 and people make mistakes and false test I mean a 944 00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:20.559 lot of these people are false testimony. There's a guy 945 00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:25.320 in Texas now shaking baby syndrome, Robert Robertson. I know 946 00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:28.199 the guy's innocent. He's been in there twenty years. And 947 00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:32.239 the sex is he had a execution day last years, 948 00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:34.639 did something that they never did before and got it stopped. 949 00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:39.760 And you know, they're using junk science shaking baby syndrome. 950 00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.079 Loved this baby didn't die from shaking baby syndrome. You know, 951 00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:47.079 And it won't be surprised me if they execute this guy. 952 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:52.280 And you know, and there's other cases that guilt is. 953 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:55.880 You know, you file a case and you don't and 954 00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:58.519 you run out of time frame onment, so it's not admissible. 955 00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:00.599 It's new evidence is not admissible. I mean, it's just 956 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:05.440 crazy the way this system works. And it's definitely geared 957 00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:08.559 towards especially in the South Southern states, the Bible Belt states, 958 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:18.480 it's geared towards. Yeah, the guilty right. 959 00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:23.119 Have you ever have you ever personally ever like witnessed 960 00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:23.760 and execution. 961 00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:26.079 I have not. 962 00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:29.199 I would build, I would excuse me, I would be 963 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:32.880 willing to. I think he could make my testimony even stronger. 964 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.679 I wish I had witnessed my brothers to be there 965 00:49:37.719 --> 00:49:42.920 for him. I think they would make my testimony stronger. 966 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.800 I have volunteered even for the one that

we have 967 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:50.119 going up here in Utah. Ralph Menzies is supposed to 968 00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:51.840 be executed in the supring court. 969 00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:53.800 State and you can't execut somebody that don't know what 970 00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:54.760 being executed for. 971 00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:01.440 This guy's been on death row thirty five years. His 972 00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:05.679 family of Marine hunts Say, her kids and Matt Huntsake 973 00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:08.599 are all these they've been promising, you're gonna get closure, 974 00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:12.679 You're gonna get closure, execute him. They've had that instead 975 00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:15.000 of just getting over it, giving him life in prison 976 00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:15.559 the beginning. 977 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:17.679 This poor family has done. 978 00:50:18.079 --> 00:50:20.800 Thirty five years waiting for this closure, waiting for this closure. 979 00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:23.880 Now the court just stepped in, the Supreme cost Supreme 980 00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:27.800 Lord just stepped in, stop the execution. And I'm gonna 981 00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:30.559 do a mental evaluation on him. 982 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:30.119 Uh. 983 00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:34.559 I think I think the guy's too far gone. 984 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:36.920 I don't think he's I don't think they're gonna allow 985 00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:38.880 him to be executed. So this family is never gonna 986 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:42.719 get that closure that the prosecutors. But they're thirty five 987 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:45.599 years and there. You know, I've testified with the Marine 988 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:49.320 Huntsaker and in court and in different earrings, in different settings, 989 00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:51.960 and the guy's just broke. You know, he's he's just 990 00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:54.280 his whole life, that's what he's done since I was 991 00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.480 ten years old, and you know, they shouldn't be promised 992 00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:59.480 and prosecutors shouldn't be promising this to family members that 993 00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:04.760 you're going to closure when it happened. I just don't 994 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:07.920 think it normally happens. I don't think you know that 995 00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:10.480 they're gonna be his ma's going to be lost when 996 00:51:10.519 --> 00:51:12.679 this is over, because he can have nothing to do 997 00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:15.000 that he's done his whole life. And I have nothing 998 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:16.079 against the Dier's family. 999 00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:18.719 I feel terrible that their mother got murdered. 1000 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:22.519 You know, I never condone someone else killing somebody else. 1001 00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.199 And you know, and I the same with the government. 1002 00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:27.800 I don't don't trust the government. I don't trust him

1003 00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.559 to get it right. I know they haven't in many 1004 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:36.840 many cases. And missus Hippy executed that little black boy, Skinny, 1005 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:39.679 I think his name was ten. 1006 00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:40.400 Years old or something. 1007 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:42.679 They had put him my goal for the electric for 1008 00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:45.079 the cone on the electricture to fit over his head 1009 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:47.559 so they can excuse this little ten year old boy. Well, 1010 00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:51.599 fifty years later they post in my see or whatever 1011 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.800 you know, said he probably wasn't wasn't guilty of the 1012 00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:55.480 crime anyway. 1013 00:51:55.840 --> 00:51:58.920 Oh George, Yeah, Yeah, that's a really very steinny, really 1014 00:51:59.000 --> 00:51:59.840 really sad case. 1015 00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:04.480 Yeah, and there's there's other ones. That's the business happening too. 1016 00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:07.320 You know, I know everybody on death row is not innocent. 1017 00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:11.079 I I like I said, there's a couple hundred of them. 1018 00:52:11.239 --> 00:52:14.360 I've I've been on speaking engagements with a bunch of 1019 00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:17.480 them over the years. So I've met these people, had 1020 00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:21.320 done twenty years and twenty two years, and you know, 1021 00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:25.119 they're been exonerate, they're innocent. Other the States don't want 1022 00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:28.719 to give them compensation even though they're they've been deemed 1023 00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:32.000 in innocent. They're exonerated, and they go through a whole 1024 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:36.239 nother five six, seven, eight year battle turning a compensation 1025 00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:40.639 most of them don't even get. And it just makes 1026 00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:44.639 me wonder how many I mean, people that we've executed, 1027 00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.280 like that friend of minor ex friend you know there 1028 00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:52.119 if they get one wrong once in a while, it's okay, 1029 00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:57.159 it's like no, it's not okay. 1030 00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:56.960 Right, right, it's not okay. 1031 00:52:57.159 --> 00:52:58.719 I have a friend I don't know, I've ever heard 1032 00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:01.199 of him. His name is doctor Bill Kimberlin. Are you 1033 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:02.000 familiar with him? 1034 00:53:03.639 --> 00:53:04.559 Don't sound familiar. 1035 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.960 So he's been researching and writing about death row for 1036 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:10.000 a while now and he's a he's he has his 1037 00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:15.239 doctorate in psychology, and he actually has a book called 1038 00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:18.280 Watch Me Die, and he attends executions all over the 1039 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.800 country and people literally will ask him, they'll seek him 1040 00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:25.559 out and want want him to witness their execution, and 1041 00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:27.960 he basically writes about it and does research on it 1042 00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:33.400 about the execution process and basically everything. 1043 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:33.679 That goes into it. 1044 00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:36.400 I'm sure you would find it very fascinated and interesting 1045 00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:38.599 to even speak to him at that at that, you know, 1046 00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:41.239 because he's a he's a good person when it comes to, 1047 00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:44.079 you know, the death. Heald he knows a lot about it, 1048 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:47.880 and he's witnessed so many botched executions and executions that 1049 00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:50.760 have been quote unquote successful. You know, it's it's it's 1050 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:51.519 really interesting. 1051 00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:56.880 I'm honestly, I'm really surprised. I don't even reabail at all, 1052 00:53:56.880 --> 00:54:00.000 be pretty up to day all this stuff. 1053 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:03.079 And I've been very involved, you know, I've learned so 1054 00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:06.079 much in the last fifteen years of being involved with this, 1055 00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:09.760 so many wrongs, you know, I mean at first it 1056 00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:11.760 was just black and white to me almost you know, 1057 00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:14.519 you're probably gonna get executed if you kill somebody and 1058 00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:18.079 you get the dea sentence, but just everything else that 1059 00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.559 I've learned since there, and thereszonerations, and the people that 1060 00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:24.920 are innocent, that are you know, the victims of the 1061 00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:29.280 collateral damage that wardens, the prison guards. You know, suicide 1062 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:35.519 rate with prison guards on just re prisons is pretty high, alcoholism. 1063 00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:35.880 Drug abuse. 1064 00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:39.880 There's been a couple of documentaries about that also, you know, 1065 00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:42.559 And it's just all the collateral damage, and it just 1066 00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:45.840 don't just stop with the family members. It stops with friends, 1067 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:48.519 and it stops with wardens, and it starts with jurors, 1068 00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:51.159 and it stops and it just it really. 1069 00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:51.639 Goes on and on. 1070 00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:56.199 And I don't think it's a very thing to be 1071 00:54:57.039 --> 00:55:00.280 killing our ownsons, you know. And I'm probably way all 1072 00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:03.840 on that because even somebody that's as terrible as maybe 1073 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:07.400 Saddam us saying, I think maybe it's an easy way

out. 1074 00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:09.159 You know a lot of people think it might have 1075 00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:11.639 been easy way out for him to get hung her, 1076 00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:16.199 you know, it's without people killing him. So I'm probably 1077 00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:17.159 a little too far. 1078 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.519 On that side. And I try to bring myself back a. 1079 00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:20.960 Little bit while he you know, he is a bad 1080 00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:24.360 guy or al Kaeder, you know, all that. 1081 00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:25.599 Even even as far. 1082 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:27.960 As Hitler goes, it's like, you know, we still don't 1083 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.880 have their still don't make it right for us to 1084 00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:32.679 kill somebody and has to make that life and death 1085 00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:36.159 decision over someone else's life. You know, we can lock 1086 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:37.840 him up and we can't throw away the key. And 1087 00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:42.880 especially now you know, and you know, I mean, you 1088 00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:46.079 don't remember the victims that my brother killed. But remember 1089 00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.719 everybody knows wrong in League Garden. You know, that's our 1090 00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:53.119 system that that did that and brought it up. And 1091 00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:56.599 you know, he had got a license twenty five years ago, 1092 00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:58.760 knowing would have hurt and I never heard her his name. 1093 00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:01.440 Again, probably right. 1094 00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:04.079 My thing, my thing with the death penalty always has 1095 00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.000 been a you know, if you take away the death penalty, 1096 00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:09.920 I mean, sure, it's it's easy for them to just 1097 00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:11.519 die and. 1098 00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:12.559 Not remember what they did. 1099 00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:15.199 But I mean on the on the pro death penalty side, 1100 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.840 I could see them saying, you know, they they're gonna 1101 00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:19.440 rode in prison for the rest of their life. They're 1102 00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:21.239 gonna have to think about what they did. They're gonna 1103 00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:23.000 have to look themselves in the mirror every day, and 1104 00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:27.199 I think that's more more more harsh punishment than it 1105 00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:28.880 is killing them, you know, because at the end of 1106 00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:31.440 the days, they're not here to face their consequences, you know. 1107 00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:34.719 And I'm anti death penalty, by the way, so it's 1108 00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:36.840 it's I can. I can see on both sides, you 1109 00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:39.440 know though, like looking from a bird's eye point of view, you. 1110 00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:44.480 Know, well, you know what, and I can too, I 1111 00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:47.280 really can. And I don't judge people. I'm judged for 1112 00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:50.119 being anti death penalty, but I don't judge people's especially 1113 00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:52.480 people it's had a lot one taken from I don't 1114 00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:55.679 judge them people fulfilling the way they do, you know, 1115 00:56:56.360 --> 00:56:58.519 I haven't. You know, Yeah, I'm choosing a way of 1116 00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:01.719 My brother was murdered, kids. I mean, his desk gets 1117 00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:05.360 that homicide and it's a murder. You know, every state 1118 00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:08.920 that executes someone, it's it's a homicide. It's on the 1119 00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:11.760 desk because they have to do autopsies. I know how 1120 00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:14.079 my brother died. He died four bullet wounds to his chest, 1121 00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:19.079 you know, but because it's a homicide, you know, they 1122 00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:19.280 have to. 1123 00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:20.280 Take that extra step. 1124 00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:23.719 And then the price, the price of executions, you know, 1125 00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:24.760 that's kind of mixed up. 1126 00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:27.039 I mean, for my brother's case. 1127 00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:30.480 From what we could figure out in twenty five years 1128 00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:33.599 from the it was three point one million dollars. So 1129 00:57:33.639 --> 00:57:36.719 if they had locked running up in prison and maximum 1130 00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:39.920 security prisoner whatever for forty years, it would have been 1131 00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.599 like seven hundred and seventy five thousand dollars. So people's gout, 1132 00:57:43.719 --> 00:57:46.559 you know, people that you're arguing with, Oh, it's deaf, 1133 00:57:46.679 --> 00:57:48.760 it's super. Just take down and kill them the next day. Yeah, 1134 00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:50.760 but if you do that, then they don't get their 1135 00:57:50.840 --> 00:57:51.639 due process. 1136 00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:51.960 You know. 1137 00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.800 Yes, it takes a long time, twenty five thirty years, 1138 00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:57.599 but there's been people that's done that. 1139 00:57:57.920 --> 00:57:59.440 Forty years of Scott's onerated. 1140 00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:01.920 These people haven't kill them. 1141 00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:02.840 Home the next day. 1142 00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:05.840 They were found guilty by a jury of their peers. 1143 00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:08.199 I mean my brother jury. 1144 00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:09.840 His peers would have been people who were off, have 1145 00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:12.639 been in prison in mental institutions he got off, and. 1146 00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:15.079 Would have been a jury by of his peers, you know. 1147 00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:18.559 But that's not you know, that's not have a

system works, 1148 00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:23.360 But I just I don't see any sense and making 1149 00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:25.039 killers out of all of us, you know, we're all 1150 00:58:25.159 --> 00:58:27.440 part of it, you know, and there's other things we 1151 00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:33.920 can do with these people that you know, are killing people, 1152 00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:38.519 but how about rehabilitating people don't believe in second chances. 1153 00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:40.480 I don't know if Ronnie would have you know, he 1154 00:58:40.519 --> 00:58:42.000 had quite a few tents. I don't know if he'd 1155 00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:44.199 have been one of those ones that he claims he 1156 00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:45.760 would have been the end if he finally realized the 1157 00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:48.719 damage he'd done. I'm not sure that this violent history, 1158 00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:53.239 but I do know there are people that deserve second chances. 1159 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:57.280 And most people's statistics shows that kills someone, they don't 1160 00:58:57.360 --> 00:59:00.840 kill multiple people, only killed one. But I mean, if 1161 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:03.039 we have ten thousand homicide guess in the United States 1162 00:59:03.079 --> 00:59:06.880 a year and we're only we're only given out five 1163 00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:10.199 death sentences a year nowadays in the whole United States, 1164 00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:14.440 you know, which used to be fifty years probably one hundred, 1165 00:59:14.599 --> 00:59:19.920 you know, twenty years ago, twenty five years ago. The 1166 00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:24.440 the fight for the death penalty. People are, people are 1167 00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:25.199 figuring it out. 1168 00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:25.679 And it's just. 1169 00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:29.679 It's just there's so much propaganda involving that, and it's 1170 00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:32.840 just like politics. It is a political arena. Honestly, it's 1171 00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:34.920 no different than what's going on with our administration. It's 1172 00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:38.360 all part of that, that political arena, and you know, 1173 00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:42.360 make that the politics had it. Even when I vote, 1174 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:45.239 people say, oh, you're a liberal, you're a Democrat. Now 1175 00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:47.840 I'm in the medal, and I vote for the person 1176 00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:50.239 that I think always have. I vote for the person 1177 00:59:50.280 --> 00:59:51.920 that I think it's going to do a better job. 1178 00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:57.719 I've got family members that are clear to the other 1179 00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:00.800 side has walk me and unfriended me. One of them 1180 01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:05.679 here recently because we couldn't agree to this agree on politics, 1181 01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:08.360 and yeah is what. 1182 01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:14.480 It is, right right, Yeah, politics is left a heavy 1183 01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:17.239 sensitive subject when it comes to families. I've seen families 1184 01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:21.400 torn apart because of politics. It's really sad. Actually, yeah, 1185 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:25.599 thank you. I agree, it is really sad. And I 1186 01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:28.000 even told I've told Bill, you know, we don't need 1187 01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:30.599 to live. We don't need to lose our family ship. 1188 01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:34.800 You know. Our blood is thicker than this water that's 1189 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:35.960 running on these streets, you know. 1190 01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:39.000 And it's my sister. She she didn't. 1191 01:00:39.639 --> 01:00:42.199 She unframed me on social media and we got in 1192 01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:45.360 touch with each other on the phone and said, Annie, 1193 01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:46.719 do you really it's what do you want to do? 1194 01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:50.760 She just except my friend with Chris bro I won't 1195 01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:54.280 talk politics no more. She she has I accept it. 1196 01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:57.119 She has a little bit I think I've made my point. 1197 01:00:57.599 --> 01:01:00.559 We're getting better at it. But I think everybody has 1198 01:01:00.559 --> 01:01:02.800 their right to have their own opinion, you know. But 1199 01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:06.360 I don't think you because one side believes in one thing, 1200 01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.159 one you know, can't sit and criticize people and arp 1201 01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:11.079 on them and you know they have that right to 1202 01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:14.079 have their own opinion and seem to get penalty. You know. 1203 01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:16.920 I don't think it's right. But I no longer fight 1204 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:19.639 anybody that's not on the fence at all. You know, 1205 01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:22.280 it's not physically but which I have done that, but. 1206 01:01:24.519 --> 01:01:27.400 Still on the fence. I think they're worth talking about it, 1207 01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:29.400 you know, just. 1208 01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:30.800 Just going out there and doing this stuff and speaking 1209 01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:32.840 out against it, you know, because in. 1210 01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:36.280 My heart I believe it's I believe I'm right. You know. 1211 01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:41.320 That's that it helps me. It don't hurt me, it helps. 1212 01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:42.960 It hurts me if I don't do it as often 1213 01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:49.920 as I sometimes should. Right it said, Yeah, crazy world 1214 01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:50.480 we live in. 1215 01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:55.920 Right, So to run this conversation out tonight, if you 1216 01:01:55.960 --> 01:01:58.599 could say one last thing to Ronnie today, what might 1217 01:01:58.679 --> 01:01:58.960 that be? 1218 01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:05.960 M So I'd say one last thing to Ronnie. 1219 01:02:07.239

--> 01:02:10.000 I've probably said, just remember where you came from and 1220 01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:14.719 remember who's important to you. When you make these decisions 1221 01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:17.280 that you made in life that are life changing, you know, 1222 01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:20.599 you've got to consider I think growing was probably very self. 1223 01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:24.599 You've got to consider other people another thing, because you know, 1224 01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:28.159 once he was executed, we as his family and his 1225 01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:31.239 friends and his people. The collateral damage that that don't end. 1226 01:02:31.280 --> 01:02:34.039 And you know, I think that could be the best 1227 01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:34.639 thing I can kill. 1228 01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:36.039 I mean, you know think. 1229 01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:39.280 I mean it makes me think I learned a lot 1230 01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:42.559 from this, and you know, even little decisions that I 1231 01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:43.960 make now it makes me think. 1232 01:02:44.119 --> 01:02:44.559 Who is this? 1233 01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:50.440 You know, there's a whole bunch of people this room's 1234 01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:53.159 out to and any decision you make a little one 1235 01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:57.079 up into the big ones like he made. I honestly 1236 01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:00.480 think he had to know, and he admit he had 1237 01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:02.239 to know somebody could get hurt when he was trying 1238 01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:06.280 to escape, you know, even though he had stuff to 1239 01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:09.039 talan on. I discussed that with him. I think you 1240 01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:11.840 just gotta you can't just be selfish. You gotta think 1241 01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:14.760 about everything. You know, you got to come down to earth, 1242 01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:17.559 and you know he never got a chance to. He 1243 01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:20.159 really never got a chance, you know. And I don't 1244 01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:22.719 make no excuses for him. You know, he's he's gone, 1245 01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:25.119 he's probably he's not suffering no more. 1246 01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:33.119 But some of us are, right right, Uh. 1247 01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:35.320 Somebody just commented my motherways taught me. At the end 1248 01:03:35.320 --> 01:03:37.719 of the day, we're all part of the human race. 1249 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:41.000 No political race matters, no color, just human And. 1250 01:03:43.639 --> 01:03:46.719 Yeah, yeah, I do too. I do too. We actually 1251 01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:55.199 grew up being prought like prejudice in my family growing up, 1252 01:03:55.559 --> 01:04:00.880 and we lived in the Forest area in Utah, but 1253 01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:04.000 the only black families black man was in the city 1254 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:08.960 with us, So I was always the black people and 1255 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:09.960

I didn't look at him. 1256 01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:13.920 But my dad and his generation, you know, he believed different, 1257 01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:16.519 he kind of. It's just that way. 1258 01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:22.239 Yeah, this is another just another. 1259 01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:23.159 POI that there used. 1260 01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:25.800 And I think everybody's the same and all we're all 1261 01:04:26.440 --> 01:04:29.199 the same, we all bleed red. And you know what 1262 01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:34.519 we all deserve getting to treat people with honor and respect. 1263 01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:40.119 No people to do that and accept that and be better, 1264 01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:42.000 you know, without the whole country and the whole world 1265 01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:42.519 would be better. 1266 01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:44.599 Yeah. 1267 01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:48.719 Yeah, the world is really crazy right now, especially America 1268 01:04:48.800 --> 01:04:52.639 with everything that's going the past two years or so. 1269 01:04:54.079 --> 01:04:57.559 Yeah, yeah, it is, it is, And you know, I 1270 01:04:57.559 --> 01:04:57.920 don't know. 1271 01:04:59.159 --> 01:05:01.239 I don't know how it's now. Now we let it 1272 01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:05.559 get to this point and we could stay in the 1273 01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:08.239 government could come to sit in a room and come 1274 01:05:08.280 --> 01:05:10.159 up with good laws and good stuff, and now it's 1275 01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:14.079 time so se And like I said, yeah, I spent 1276 01:05:14.159 --> 01:05:18.280 a lot of time researching, and I can say I 1277 01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:21.039 don't know what real news is unless I see it 1278 01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:24.880 with my eyes here here, it with my ears from there. 1279 01:05:25.960 --> 01:05:26.440 I don't know. 1280 01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:29.320 You know, some things, I'm smart enough to know that 1281 01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:31.760 that's not that's not that's not true. 1282 01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:35.840 That's fake noise. It's fake noise. They're news. I can 1283 01:05:35.880 --> 01:05:36.480 get the word out. 1284 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:43.199 Yeah, we're in for historic we're living and I'm very 1285 01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:46.400 grateful that I am living in this soul. I never 1286 01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:48.840 thought i'd live to be I'll be sixty seven coming 1287 01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:53.880 up here next this month. But uh, we're living through 1288 01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:56.960 historical times and I'm thankful. But I get to be here. 1289 01:05:57.639 --> 01:06:00.880 There's stuff happening right now in the world world that 1290 01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:05.079 it's never it's never happened. Some I don't know what 1291 01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:07.639 something big as something BIG's happening, and I don't know 1292 01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:10.320 what it is. I'm not a religious person. I don't 1293 01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:11.760 know if

we're going to have a second coming or 1294 01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:14.280 any any of that stuff either. But you know you're 1295 01:06:14.280 --> 01:06:18.920 not an atheist, but something better than es. I'm kind 1296 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:22.920 of life. I've lived more scientific and I need to. 1297 01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:26.840 I can't just have that blind and stuff. 1298 01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:27.519 I have to see it. 1299 01:06:28.599 --> 01:06:31.079 I feel it, and I feel like maybe I'm getting 1300 01:06:31.159 --> 01:06:33.119 cheated in life because I can't. I don't have that 1301 01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:39.679 blind or religion, you know, even UFOs. I mean, I 1302 01:06:39.719 --> 01:06:43.840 think it's still I think that people would believe that 1303 01:06:43.880 --> 01:06:46.480 there is not life in other life in. 1304 01:06:46.360 --> 01:06:55.519 This universe, right right, Yeah, those people that don't believe, 1305 01:06:55.559 --> 01:06:57.320 all of them that I figured out, I keep parallel 1306 01:06:57.480 --> 01:06:58.639 doing these parallels to them. 1307 01:06:58.639 --> 01:07:00.440 But there is in there. 1308 01:07:00.519 --> 01:07:05.840 They're the the conservative people that don't. That's possible to 1309 01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:09.559 there not be in this universe? Have there not be 1310 01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:13.119 something some of the forms of life? You know now, 1311 01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:17.760 and I want to get off on the crazy. I'm 1312 01:07:17.800 --> 01:07:18.880 open to anything. 1313 01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:19.599 That I can see. 1314 01:07:19.880 --> 01:07:29.440 Yeah, yeah, so, but I speaking with me today, I've 1315 01:07:29.480 --> 01:07:31.199 always wanted to speak to you, and I'm sorry it's 1316 01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:33.400 taking this long, but I'm glad we were able to 1317 01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:34.840 really enjoy this conversation. 1318 01:07:35.400 --> 01:07:39.440 Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you're doing it. 1319 01:07:39.480 --> 01:07:42.840 As I was having second thoughts, It's like, got, this 1320 01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:45.880 conversation is going to bring a lot of my emotions. 1321 01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:49.559 And then I go back to this is and it has. 1322 01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:52.679 It has brought out some emotions of conversations here. You know, 1323 01:07:52.719 --> 01:07:56.119 they're good emotions, their emotions that I'm feeling, and I'm 1324 01:07:56.159 --> 01:07:59.440 feeling a little bit. It gives me the power to 1325 01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:02.559 continue to keep fighting what I believe to be the 1326 01:08:02.599 --> 01:08:02.880 good and. 1327 01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:06.000 The right thing to do in life. So well, I'm glad. 1328 01:08:06.320 --> 01:08:08.960 I'm glad you're fighting, and you know, fighting for your brother, 1329 01:08:09.280 --> 01:08:11.800 you know, at the end of the day essentially, and 1330 01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:14.719 you know, fighting for other people that were that are 1331 01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:17.319 currently in a situation that he once was. 1332 01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:21.800 You know, I don't want I don't want no one 1333 01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:22.600 to be in the club. 1334 01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:25.920 No one wants to belong to is what we say. 1335 01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:29.520 It's like, And that's kind of fighting. I don't want 1336 01:08:29.560 --> 01:08:30.479 people that I felt. 1337 01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:34.000 I feel like Ronnie's kids fell, some of my other 1338 01:08:34.039 --> 01:08:37.760 family members felt Ryan. Ronnie's lawyers had to see lawyers 1339 01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:40.960 for twenty five years and they they love me. They've 1340 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:43.159 seen all the good and the bad in him, you know, 1341 01:08:43.159 --> 01:08:47.920 and these lawyers do everything just where the collateralamage are 1342 01:08:49.199 --> 01:08:52.880 people and you know, it's almost like premeditated. 1343 01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:54.720 You know, they know what's going to happen. 1344 01:08:54.720 --> 01:08:57.479 The government knows its people are going to get it hurt, 1345 01:08:57.560 --> 01:09:01.439 their feelings hurt, if someone gets executed. They don't about that. No, 1346 01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:07.119 And like people have told me, you know, it's just like, oh, 1347 01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:11.439 your brother, you're a victim of poor mhm. Or your 1348 01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:13.239 brother should have thought about Yeah, he probably should have, 1349 01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:17.479 but he didn't. In the government's killing people to kill people, 1350 01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:22.159 So killing is wrong. It's pretty simple, Like my daughter 1351 01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:24.079 told me, simple, and I'm a six year old girl. 1352 01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:24.640 I can get that. 1353 01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:29.159 We can teach it to future people and people that 1354 01:09:29.199 --> 01:09:32.199 are still here, they are, you know, voting, and she's 1355 01:09:32.239 --> 01:09:38.199 eighteen now, that daughter mine. She absolutely I don't believe 1356 01:09:38.199 --> 01:09:40.159 in the death penalty, but most of my kids don't. 1357 01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:42.960 When I was on board, the other ones see what 1358 01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:44.520 has done to me, and it's like, you know, the 1359 01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:46.520 thing they read what has done to me is enough 1360 01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:47.920 reason for them not to believe in it. 1361 01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:51.359 Right, right, that's good. That's good. 1362 01:09:51.399 --> 01:09:54.680 I know it's a sensitive set of so everybody's always 1363 01:09:54.680 --> 01:10:18.039 gonna be, but it's it's good to disagree for them.