Today we welcome back Yuval Noah Harari to Under The Skin where we discuss his new book 21 Lessons For The 21st Century. We tackle the idea of the rise useless class, the power of new A.I. technology and what we can do to combat this potential assault on our identity and role as human beings in world.
United States
explicit content


00:00:00hello and welcome to under the skin in this episode the first episode of season two thank you for joining us by the point I'll be talking to you Val now a robbery who scarcely needs an introduction but I'm gonna do do introductions thanks allows people to speak wondering
00:00:17on to stages %HESITATION into %HESITATION DO spices and announced in you don't know her alright but could sapiens which was recommended to main name drop by Damien Hirst and he told me about it earn that you found that her always theory was that our capacity to narrative always
00:00:34as a homo sapiens was what distinguished us from the other humanoid ape like creatures that roamed the hundreds of thousands of years ago and it too fast too promising and in data book second this tells those stories along with many others he subsequent books continue on there is
00:00:53%HESITATION long lines at the sometimes a little distraught Frank you know with the advance of technology I hope you enjoy the conversation that you fell and I had about power the organization of power the potential for change price in if you were just on the tool to cover
00:01:11a school in south London and I was very mindful that we were talking in front of an audience of hundreds of kids many of whom were concerned about he's visions for a future in which many of the jobs that they would be at anticipate will be taken by
00:01:29machines is an interesting shot I hope you enjoy it trying to achieve equality with the annihilation of category is not successful that's exactly right where it turns out we were never what was the NY for the service of people with the ideas that the finance on welcome to
00:01:52the Russell brand you Val thank you so much for joining me on under the skin it's good to be here again since we last spoke yeah eat your life is changed I would I don't know how your life change certainly of from the perspective of another person's change
00:02:08because your books have become much more popular yeah we don't know like traveling all over the world %HESITATION we have a bit less time to ourselves a bit less time to do research of but you know it's good when your work is appreciated so I don't complain when
00:02:23you say wait you mean a year in your husband yeah my husband he took was like you know the genius of behind the scenes how to many unique his ideas I'm I mean that's you know lots of people writes good books that nobody ever heard about so you
00:02:38know I just know how to write the books but to actually get them to people I mean you don't want just to speak copy also wants to be heard and it's a different talent to to be able to reach you ever a wide audience than just to come
00:02:54up with these interesting idea what decisions do you think it's because made the F. meant that your ideas of being more than not %HESITATION fire %HESITATION first but %HESITATION agent terrible job and find much better agents and %HESITATION you know in in in C. still getting the rights
00:03:11Cohen talks and and that right events like no Johnny like this to to to to the UK to get so many invitations so you know choosing to do it pulled cost with you and north ways you know fifty other potential %HESITATION it's it's not made the right decision
00:03:27I don't know but to how to make these choices I basically just would say yes to everything and when they have no life at all we would just like a supine and allow all opportunity to write a no on you light line that's one way of describing get
00:03:43that I just I'm not very good in you know %HESITATION %HESITATION negotiating and and making all these kinds of practical decisions say it in a sense a relationship is a hole and you contribute some qualities the relationship your husband contributes others the relation can be seen as a
00:04:03sofa and ecology that comprises you but you know it's a very very old model %HESITATION to combine the family unit with the kind of economic unit so thousand years ago maybe we would have had a habit of gold's together or a a wheat field to get her and
00:04:20now we do books and and publications together pops his **** I in fact I am an older and more natural model than the extraction of the professional from the familial would you say %HESITATION me to different you know it it has its advantages and disadvantages but the White
00:04:39Sea took quite a corpsman model still in and quite effective yes he seems to be working for you certainly you thou art let's mention that we've just come from a school the million Bailey school doing an event where I interviewed you in front of %HESITATION a group of
00:04:57young people really I felt I so my role more as a facilitator and occasional M. C. rather than interrogator because it felt like it was a very good opportunity for the young people to be hurt what did you think I know the quality of the questions we both
00:05:14agreed we were strong but what did you think of the general Tyrone what did that you pick up from the young people about their concerns yeah they were very concerned %HESITATION I was struck by a by by the first question %HESITATION that was you know about that the
00:05:30useless Klaas man somebody saying but wait there is a useless colossal ready it's not if for cost full twenty or thirty years from now there are people who have used of even view themselves as useless is outside the system %HESITATION right now %HESITATION so this was you know
00:05:50something very sad to hear but nothing very true sunny very true sex innocence that sort of was %HESITATION evidence of the kind of awareness of young people before you went on one of my concerns was an here let because your latest book lessons at what's that name of
00:06:09it twenty one listens for the twenty first century the and it because this book is to some degree I end up and and a home address to a point also focused on the impact of technological advance on the way we organize society and and you know as the
00:06:26the the first question a highlight it to their creation or not creation but we'll plantation of useless class which I'm already thinking of creating a political movement gold the US close because of a punkish kinda sexiness to it you we all the useless Klaus %HESITATION babies Roald Dahl
00:06:46attack not it sounds like something from Matilda I'm light but well I feel what are what when you get a lot I will miss right before you Val my consumers %HESITATION let it snow citing that is gonna have startle them but they already stuff yeah I mean I
00:07:02think that that they'll most also than than many of the adults because they will have to live with the consequences %HESITATION they hopefully will still be around in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen twenty eighty and they have to take very seriously these possibilities you know if you are sixty
00:07:20years old so it's interesting to think about the worlds of the late twenty first century but you're unlikely to actually be there but if you %HESITATION now say the sixteen years old hopefully you will still be around even in the LD twenty second century what it would you
00:07:38consider to be like that because there is such diverse city in your work now anthropology speculation philosophy ethics over multi disciplinarian approach something that you saw spoke about again in Allah talk earlier what is the do you now consider to be your role because it almost becomes like
00:08:03as you said it's not a prophecy is no property that we're going to create this huge useless class of people that don't have jobs what do you see your role last you see they do see it is simply a U. documenting information are you warning what you see
00:08:16is your function it was your intention I tried to bring clarity to people and this is now how not just me but like my entire team is defining our mission that this is what we try to bring people clarity because you have these enormous flooding of information and
00:08:32misinformation in fake news and even true news but just too much then to make it very clear to people what are the most important challenges what are the most important questions are you look at the political debates and I'm struck again and again by the fact that almost
00:08:50all over the world the political debates are focusing on the wrong issues not because these issues don't exist but simply because they are not the most important things the most important things today in the world you have three big challenges its nuclear war it's climate change and its
00:09:08technological disruption the rise of A. I. in biotechnology that he's a good guy that down to Sony's and a free my simple things in the world I'm not gonna miss an opportunity to focus on that nuclear war climate change climate change technological disruption climate change and technological disruptions
00:09:24on the big three we've been discussing technological disruption the social disruption economic disruption and the creation of the eighty or open session of the uses cross this is what we should be so I'm when what do you think I'm what is most common political discourse concerned with not
00:09:38with any of them you know discussions about trade agreements and raise the tent in radiation they are important but they are not the most important thing you know we have so much energy and so much Fulton time is invested in the brexit debate but whatever you think about
00:09:58brexit whether you're for or against it it should be obvious to everybody brexit is not helping us in preventing nuclear war it's not helping us in preventing climate change and it's not helping us in regulating the explosive potential of A. I. in biotechnology if it's all it's probably
00:10:16only making things more difficult %HESITATION and deals so much time is is is yes on that in twenty years when we look back and ask why didn't we still climate change will come on time why didn't we regulate I own time we will say oh yeah we had
00:10:34this brexit thing so we kind of spend five years of our attention on that do you imagine that this is because of ignorance on the part of the people that are making these decisions do you think is ignorance on the part of people that they they have general
00:10:48population the all speculate in and concerned where do you think these are because it's amazing that you're talking about unconsciousness the %HESITATION mission is to bring into consciousness things that are currently in the unconscious not I do you think this is because all I would say that that
00:11:03from from my perspective the conversations that the superficial conversations that take place in the public sphere on have always been to a degree distraction from their true mechanized these rallies these the key the key concept it's a destruction and like all these gold instructions really work by exploiting
00:11:22the weaknesses awful mind that there are things that attract human attention and the %HESITATION no this is a busy often a huge gap between what is important and what he's attractive and interesting man %HESITATION it's you know to to to attract people's attention you need to press certain
00:11:43buttons like the fear about turn of the hatred about ten or the greed button but %HESITATION you can do that quite easily and destructive people from the far more important things if you have two headlines in the newspaper one headline is about you know terrorist threats the other
00:12:01headline ease new research on climate change indicates that blah blah blah blah blah it's very obvious which newspapers most people will pick up and read not because terrorism is more important than climate change but because it's presses are emotional buttons far more effective yes and one might imagine
00:12:24that the people that decide which headlines to and beyond which had which headlines make the front pages which issues make then used a gender on all of Bolivia's to the capacity for fearful information to occupy the thoughts of most people yeah so you know it's it's a very
00:12:43old trick coming politicians throughout history Neil if you want to grab people's attention press the fear button very simple yes yes and advertises primarily the sex button yeah %HESITATION my **** those that the sex pots in in the FIA Boston by in our lives are you won't be
00:13:01able to spend money sex if you want people to be possible to behave in a certain why in may %HESITATION often in an orderly way %HESITATION sometimes involve tell why feet can be used as a distraction with dealing with kind of a I don't know conscious foresees energetic
00:13:16resources you have a sort of a mechanistic model I know you screen every way using what like pressing buttons that you were regarding human being is a kind of a mechanistic a by a mechanical object would you say no I mean they're they're all you'd steps to to
00:13:31the you mean being to the human mind but unfortunately a lot of history happens in the shallows they're easy you'd step in in in the human being but if you look at most of the decisions you make certainly in the political sphere it's all in the shallows how
00:13:47do you mean some of that when people %HESITATION well I think of how how to how to phrase it when you make a decision and important decisions in life and people often don't stop to really try to understand why do I choose this year where it what is
00:14:11the source of these desired what is the source of all of these thought and actually I'm you know you have this widespread belief in in a free will our end you know the voter knows best the customer is always wrong eight foot just follow your heart out and
00:14:28they're all good things to say about the slogans but they also may cause extremely I'm curious about the real sources of our passions and desires and decisions like a desire pops up in your mind and you say well this isn't I chose it this is my free will
00:14:45so I'll just go ahead and do it I'll just follow my heart and very often you miss the fact that this desire has been shaped whether body coporate retirement or by political propaganda %HESITATION by religious mythology and the naive belief that what ever pops up in my mind
00:15:03this is just you know the expression of my authentic free will is very very dangerous because this is what makes us so easy to manipulate how do we as individuals began tag hi acquire a different perspective on what you suggest is to date programming that exploits by a
00:15:28chemical tendencies do you think the meditation can be a a way of developing personal clarity in addition to education because for me information is held entirely in the intellect often suffers from the same problems regardless of from where it's housed site within a political spectrum yelling the many
00:15:50ways to really start exploring yourself ranging from different comics of meditation to therapy to all its two sports but the key thing is first of all to have the inclination the curiosity to start digging stocks Loring because if you go around with these kind of naive image of
00:16:14yourself is online I'm the master of all my desires and choices I am a free citizen I am an authentic consumer digest choose what %HESITATION I just follow my home with an informal my choices then you don't even have the curiosity to to explore these things and it's
00:16:35more and more important to have these kind of curiosity in a world in which to be cut it is becoming more and more easy to manipulate people because of advances on the one hand in brain science and biology and on the other hand in computer science and big
00:16:51data algorithms and so forth it's becoming much easier to hack human beings and to manipulate them sold the needs to you know have these curiosity about what actually shapes my desires and my choices it's more important than ever before in the last century there Weston political discourse was
00:17:15determined primarily between ideas of the right and left free market Vessey state control %HESITATION as we move different all ideas around liberties and social and otherwise however all these this to buy these binary to buy shoes that the primary role of the human being is is a unit
00:17:39of energy monetize a bull commodity that will operate in the market even from a socialist perspective that human being is that and we are the name of the English life is placed a life of pi human beings are welcome that given the technological disruption that you describe is
00:17:56it time for human beings to begin looking at roles we can have that extend beyond our the contribution we may make to the economy I. A. as workers yes certainly I mean a lot of for a flock of jobs are are going to disappear some new jobs are
00:18:13likely to appear but will not sure if if enough and we are not sure if people will be able to kind of free train and reinvent themselves to feel the new jobs so first of all we need to expand our our consumer conception off what it means to
00:18:29be a useful member of society here though a lot of extremely important things that people have been doing for the whole of history and we show not considered jobs like to raise children %HESITATION to help build communities and it's time that we recognize the central importance of these
00:18:46things that somebody might not have you know a job in a factory %HESITATION in office but T. O. she I was still extremely important members of society and also to go beyond that and to realize it old teammate Klay it's not about jobs we don't need to protect
00:19:04jobs we need to protect humans in a situation in which may be there is not enough jobs for every there was not enough things for for people to do in the job market this is not necessarily a crisis this is an opportunity if we can cheaply and easily
00:19:22feed and clothe and support people are based on the work or for machines and computers in all the rhythms this can be a wonderful opportunity for people to have much more time and energy to explore and develop themselves not as colds in an industrial production line but is
00:19:40Uman beings and this idea of a mechanized utopia is in fact one of this earliest socialist tropes they existed this socialism will eventually yeah right excellent something very interesting to people often miss about you know it only socialism and Marxism and so forth is in the twentieth century
00:19:59southern in places like the Soviet Union labor or was glory fight that eats it with the labor is a wonderful thing you have all these posters off off off you know heroic labor heroic laborer is coal miners steel workers but actually the initially dear of Marxism is labor
00:20:16is bad needs painful it's difficult soul because labor is so difficult and painful and so forth we need to compensate the labor is properly but in essence labor is bad and you know the very low with the very word lady bore the initial connotations wall is something very
00:20:39difficult something very painful yes and this glorification of the work in the library is clearly to encourage people to work now the and now they will no longer be necessary to have a population that works for the sustenance of night tions soul seven economic goals it's it's time
00:21:02for us to revoke of review radically what it is we have to do with human beings one of the thing things I've been struck by we're looking at your work as a whole not I'm claiming to have side like in this of a best players perspective then you
00:21:15on your work is that is tracing human beings from very early cultures very early societies through that massive revolution of agriculture through the revolution of industrialization through the revolution of technology where do we go next where all we have a nice you'll work demonstrates anything of because it
00:21:33demonstrates many it demonstrates the malleability of human beings and now willingness to old to and our openness to new ideas and it seems to me that the idea is that we need to access and explore at this time are not wise that we can fit into these existing
00:21:50systems but ways that we can make the system serve us by which I mean if the power if Power continues to rest with people that control industry technology algorithms and ultimately you will get another class but if this out is this on the class or uses class is
00:22:07mobilized organized able to regard themselves as having a collective identity in a collective interest that transition transcends gender nationality in rice been there will be the possibility that power come because ultimately this is about power can be I saw it on the currently powerful and we can redistribute
00:22:27if not resources then the ability to organize the systems because the current trend is merely an exaggeration of was always happened an elite will continue to control and as people become less and less necessary people will be disregarded this happens already what we don't need slaves anymore we
00:22:46can call full to Pamela obey or a little bit and so people as always will need to recognize common interests so new mythologies need to be instigated pops yeah I mean I think we need to above all global stories Bacall is coming back to the three big problems
00:23:06of nuclear war and climate change into political disruption of written down they'll all global problems it should be obvious to everybody they have only global solutions if we all to prevent climate change if we if we all to regulate I'll deficient intelligence it cannot be done on the
00:23:24level of a single nation the problem I found your con disagree but that that that that challenge we have is often these arguments are couched in the language of liberalism and all often presented by a %HESITATION what we would fully consider the advocates of liberalism that liberalism in
00:23:41there and hold on to their him out if he has filed a huge number of people I and I sort of see you know that I understandable reaction the the re emergence of a type of nationalism S. of polarization of politics for me this is an understandable rejection
00:23:58of the politics of the last thirty years the failure to acknowledge the sacrifices of indigenous working class populations in there le the lost war %HESITATION you know which and was not just working class populations in this country but the call nice people that you know the conversation that
00:24:14you know everybody effective but what I'm I suppose I'm saying is is all I understand to be a merchants off I knew right as it justifiable rejection all of liberalism a because really liberalism is not addressed the problems of ordinary pull people diligently enough or perhaps a told
00:24:33so how are we going to present these ideas of global glut of these globalized ideas these global narratives without them smacking of the liberalism that most people commonly rejecting %HESITATION that's going to be very difficult idea but first a full I I would also say that a lot
00:24:56of the rise of population and nationalism today in the world you see a lot in the western world that is losing its power and follow less in many of the developing countries which have benefited from %HESITATION dealing with the recent trends of of globalization and liberalization but I
00:25:15do agree with you that there is if core we need we shouldn't dismiss the rise of population in and populism and nationalism is some kind of operation well some kind of you know many collation bye bye by politicians the key message I'm hearing from that is people being
00:25:42aware that they all left being left behind and that they are becoming irrelevant and they want to give the system to keep before it is too late if the in the twentieth century the main struggle for the masses was against exploitation you have an elite that exploits you
00:26:01in the twenty first century the main struggle might be against irrelevance you have an elite that doesn't exploit you in doesn't need you and a lot of the like recent upheaval is certainly in a place like Britain like United States is people trying to use the political power
00:26:20before it's too late and they are succeeding that I just came back from Silicon Valley so you know now he's cynical valley everybody everybody but many people are asking themselves what do the people in Kentucky think end three years ago they didn't ask themselves what do the people
00:26:38in Kentucky things because nobody cares about the people in Kentucky in in Silicon Valley so in this sense it was successful in drawing attention look we are still here we realize that we are being left behind again going back say a hundred years so as a common person
00:26:55in the nineteen thirties %HESITATION maybe you were exploited maybe you lived in much harder conditions than to day but in the nineteen thirties almost everywhere as a common person you were the hero of the future even if you live in a dictatorship like **** Germany or the Soviet
00:27:13Union so you look at the posters on the wall and you see these heroic steel workers in in in her right poses this is the future arms the future everybody's talking about me and two day you have the same people you know looking at the posters and and
00:27:30and listening to the Ted talks and to all that the books and the %HESITATION not there you have all these big words off a globalization genetic engineering blockchain machine learning and none of them is a boat to me yeah I'm I'm I don't like it like can you
00:27:49know in these blockchain M. one knows with blockchain is but he loves me ends you know plays well I tried exactly so people kind of it it's a kind of shouting Hey I'm still here I don't want to become irrelevant %HESITATION and you know it's it's the even
00:28:08if in material terms the situation is better than in the nineteen thirties and this is certainly true psychologic that metric to evaluate things for some reason if we like if we evaluate things on material times if we choose how much is all important I mean if you if
00:28:23you look at things like mortality of children than the fact that to date your children has a much better chance of surviving to adulthood than a century ago this is very important if you have children yeah I can tell you there knowing that subject as Joan of course
00:28:43to quite a few questions here and is it here they are whether if you are not part of the late the late then whether you are being exploited or whether you are irrelevant I don't like those options I would I would like to include aches increased smile certainly
00:29:01but still there is a big difference between exploitation anyway irrelevance yet when your exploited your still powerful you'll you'll never know awful as long as it to be exploited without raising your the need you I mean if you're exploited for example you can you go on strike and
00:29:19and they care about it because they need you they need you to work in the factory to serve in the army when your your relevant you are much less powerful irrelevant people can't go on strike me they go on strike workers no you can't go on strike but
00:29:33you you do need to organize and this and this narrative of the the the glorification their narrative where the work at a central because the work is necessary this narrative is constructed no out of politeness but nearly in order to exploit the worker and waltzed you may have
00:29:50a personal sense of engagement of high %HESITATION I'm not that guy with a sheaf of wheat holding a sick a lot ain't life grand you still law simply a resource now but if you are an important resource and have purpose you hang on a spiritual level no no
00:30:06I mean from the point of view of the of the political and economic system you are important yeah and the fact is they do invest in you even if you live in a place like **** Germany as long as you're not a Jew or something like that a
00:30:20Hitler would invest in your health in your education would build sewage systems in in the slums because Hitler needs you eventually to work in the factory and to serve as a soldier in the very marked otherwise Germany won't be strong so even the most it within fascism aside
00:30:39from the wealthiest just the things about how she's in a fashion that that need to be re hash because the size of evidently a bomb in a bowl that puts a thing about fascism the idea the idea about us human beings functioning as a unit that is not
00:30:55a life is not an exploitation that's not exploit Stephen in the same why is cap to the system exploits people by sending the deception %HESITATION gonna want and we work you'll be good when really is entirely your labor is a resource for us in fascism isn't there a
00:31:09sense that there is an earnest belief that the included group all valuable if they know insist CA your not being jeep to a product Hitler wasn't going up those stupid little blue lights made a big mean means it it's sincere all that's a big question where it's it
00:31:29when you look at the fact it's it's really a myth but certainly there is a widening the sincerity of fascism or the sincerity of fifth functional for really caring about their individual German housewife and her children who just a means to mobilize population to suit the needs of
00:31:50the powerful in the end I mean you see it in fascism like in in in many other regimes and %HESITATION and of course the always the extra excluded ones yes fascism in order to function fascism always needs enemies and traitors present profession is enough molested and show IT
00:32:08is %HESITATION yeah there is a lot of misunderstanding about fascism which is I think one of the reasons you see a re read resurgence of certain Foshee stint in sees today in the world one of the misunderstandings is that there's a kind of romanticism for the included group
00:32:23and if you have a light is is it just the opposite that I think that when we try to when after the second World War we eat which was a central theme in every education system in the west a to warn people about fascism but they think with
00:32:38we didn't do a good enough job because we presented fan Chisholm as a kind of monster and we've vilified for I mean we didn't explain what towards attractive about it and what was attractive about fascism is that he told people you all if you belong to the group
00:32:58to the right group you all the most important thing in the world you are the most beautiful thing in the world when people looked you know knocking the fascist mirror in the nineteen thirties if a German and ari and look in the mirror he did not see a
00:33:11monster he sold the most beautiful thing in the world this is why it was so attractive comparable to the worker in the week chief propaganda poster you have an identity that is meaningful to a culture you individual identity has value in the collective identity whether that your area
00:33:28and looking in the mirror or your %HESITATION %HESITATION communist toiling in the fields factory you have purpose you have meaning this seems to be a resource that's important when organizing a society or system yeah and and you know it it it it it flutters people and people like
00:33:45to hear so human resources in a I mean when we're looking at is difficult isn't it when talking about extremist ideology such as fascism and and and and and communism as we've experienced it because will as you just said we extract it sweet extract from it we don't
00:34:02include what must be attractive about a and there's nothing wrong with people feeling purpose %HESITATION valued in the collective there be something wrong with people persecute in and I saw is okay but but but because we've made this we wanted to warn people about fascism we didn't we
00:34:18didn't really explain what was so tempting about twenty people go off to read it's a bit like you know when that when I read Harry potter when I watch stall was a things like that they always make the same mistake that they depict the bad guys is just
00:34:33terrible and ugly and repulsive and then you're left with the sense why would anybody follow Voldemort why would anybody follow Darth Vader these guys they are ugly they are mean even to their own supporters they're mean and cruel and then you don't understand what the seductive about the
00:34:50dark side and the thing is the dark side is very seductive yes because for the people in it it's very beautiful again you look in the mirror you see the most beautiful thing in the world this is something that you know traditional Christian art understood much better than
00:35:08modern science fiction you mean that the devil would be beautiful the devil is beautiful this otherwise we'll be tempted nine so no we we have an intelligent aeration that grew up with the idea of fascism is the ugliest thing in the world and then when when they stole
00:35:24two adult foster city deers and they look in the mirror what the seas not a monster what the scene is something very beautiful and then they reach the conclusion we come to the fascists yes yes I understand when you won't be able to be vegetarian it caught you
00:35:37caught sight by can taste awful your car look great quality to it okay as I with drugs look heroin it's a lot of fun but I'm sorry we come play Karen anymore is off the agenda and what those things are resolved by is pleasure pleasure out power these
00:35:56energies are attractive movies ideologies I move throughout consciousness now they all have at some point interacted with human consciousness there an expression of our consciousness they seem to be universals they seem to be perennial themes that emerging we want to belong to the collective we want to feel
00:36:11valued we want to feel purposeful antithetical in fact of the dystopia that you're describing where a useful class will they aimed for light and we are but I did to an unmanageable degree isn't it then when we're looking at the systems that are filed the and the systems
00:36:28that succeeding I'm what we have learned and what we begin to understand it isn't our obligation to begin to present alternative ideas that somehow embrace these ideas of purpose essence and where possible throw off the imaginary shackles of best systems pre existing requirements ID you'll value is as
00:36:52a worker and using one of us in this room right now is here because of our value is a worker you may Jenny every single person is being paid to be here right one way or another and let you know you will you Love you'll you'll have to
00:37:05let go of your husband's in the room but you've already pay these come out will best ideas so like you know but like none of us will not the most important things in my life and not my values as a man doing a pot costs at my children
00:37:18my wife and all human beings know this that that that that that that love is something that can be realized through work but need not be and often isn't yeah so in this %HESITATION in this world where they're raising a potentially technology is going to create a separate
00:37:33of people where industrialized agriculture created separate of people this is stuff I'm calling from Erin books yeah industrialization create a surplus of people people had server Rui Groff to their identity on the different comes all invaluable because I'm a peasant working in a field on the value because
00:37:48I'm a man walking down a dog %HESITATION golf now where is the value only gonna have to start organizing society is the %HESITATION not somehow privacy take on a powerful elite because simply because that powerful elite isn't there anymore he's been challenged it's been pulled down he's been
00:38:03on the mind is being shackled ow systems must be brought back under the control in the service of people with other systems a political %HESITATION technological they must again work for ordinary people yeah I mean but the greatest challenge is that this time you hope you will increasingly
00:38:19have to deal not with a powerful Uman elite but with a powerful elite off uncle rhythms that are not human that are probably in have no consciousness but they increasingly around the world these algorithms many have been designed it first by Youmans but then they continue to evolve
00:38:40and learn by themselves they many technically still be subservient to humans but increasingly they will make the most important decisions and we won't even understand how and why I'll give a concrete example because it sounds very abstract one a I will serve as a so is recognizable from
00:38:57science fiction this idea ultimately we will in Dow machines of a consciousness the signals around no consciousness it doesn't depend on machines have been constant eligible intelligence yes and you look today's program the financial system how many people in the world understand the financial system maybe less than
00:39:16one percent but you still have some people who at least claim to understand the financial system and you have the big bankers and the finance ministers and put in the prime minister's they are making the big financial decisions but in twenty or forty years or so the financial
00:39:34system because again of the increase increasing use of a I and machine learning it's extremely likely the financial system will be so complicated no human beings will be able to understand how the global financial system works it will rely on algorithms and only all the rhythms would be
00:39:52able to actually tell you what's happening now in the financial system so we would still have a chancellor of the exchequer you'll still have %HESITATION a prime minister but what will actually happen is that in I'll go with them will come to the prime minister and basically tell
00:40:07look we are facing a financial crisis I can't explain why because no human being do condescending and these are the three options what to do about I agree with you and it does sound very soul of that is typing and terrifying one might be in another way people
00:40:21are already limited by their role I spoke to verify case and he said the German chancellor can only do what the German chancellor das that see he's rolling hits him already there is no personal freedom already we are seven it seems to me the only discussing is the
00:40:37difference between a man and this with a spare or a man with a gun or a man with a computer in a row ball that they were out some ID group control power most people are the bomb the pyramid and and at the bottom of that pyramid they
00:40:49maybe being exploited or they may be irrelevant so the thing that needs to alter is the approach to the construction of hierarchies insistence because you're quite right I mean like I did in that dystopian version with the prime ministers of running around with a tea towel tapping these
00:41:06family in one day about what what the algorithm once they re steals a powerful elite that he's dominating no there's not let that powerful lay out I don't know the algorithms just nicked me for all right in every state it still is is in the shop so the
00:41:22thing that makes the changes of the person from everything's personal for me in and %HESITATION every person for everyone else to me but I went to a billion as private island once and had some conversation about like %HESITATION how do we help people and it has a three
00:41:39letter words T. high X. hi Martin sapping the island I'm I had this very visceral feeling you vow no longer do we appeal to the powerful to for why he's it did for their largess so that I will help the powerless from now we tell the powerless that
00:42:02you must take power but to take power you need to understand how Paul works how the system works and one of the problems is that as the system becomes more complicated it's more difficult even you say taxes what happens if money becomes less important more and more the
00:42:21economy is an exchange of information and not money end Condamine and then all the taxes I mean all the traditional Techsystems might become irrelevant when one of the ditch the geniuses off of Marx and Engels was that they were able to explain to people in a very clear
00:42:42away hollow the system actually functions because if you don't understand that you can what's really stage of evolution for example and then explanation that was very good in the not middle middle of the nineteenth century it's no longer relevant to how the system works in the twenty first
00:43:02century if you don't understand how the economy how the financial system how the world functions will power is then you can't do much about it you can try and stage a revolution but you don't even understand were the real power is going to tell you she sees whether
00:43:20purchases what do we attack in order for example happened with a certain grace all right we got control of grace you got control enough in death as a and so well I'm I'm video saying this well I feel it him I mean I'm I feel the old I
00:43:37don't know if I'm mentally ill is a strong possibility that I am but like a lot but you know sometimes I hear like in a one so some flat froze out electronics and as suddenly everything is disrupted an intercept it seems to me that what you said I
00:43:50yeah this is what we need to tell you is that yet you're saying we need to understand how the system works in that why that Marxism explained this is how the system works it basically every step every dog they're all good spirits production there is the means of
00:44:01production there's distribution and this is no longer the case as a system that works in a very different way because I was basic cures definition to a low of %HESITATION George Orwell audio books and it's amazing because these these parts of huge passages waving all my god what
00:44:14incredible force I how amazing and then as I was leaving %HESITATION no that's not how it turned out old I hit there's no yet kicked off and on the road to Wigan pier guy and I'm not look they say the blow coming he's going to be trouble we
00:44:25have good quick George does something then there's like a speculation about like how all the things are going to pan out and it's all of a here leads of the necessity for socialism he does point out the light that socialism is requirement for mechanization and a mechanized utopia
00:44:40will fail and I can't help but return to something that Ghandi said prior to the Indian revolution throughout the British there's no point in overthrowing the British in order to simply replace them and there she stands and Gandhi failed in this respect I mean Gandhi had the vision
00:44:56of turning India into these collection old agrarian you all talk utopias and the only thing left off Gundy's vision in the core and Indian economy is his image on these rupee notes that's the only thing left here %HESITATION and this is partly because you know Gandhi's analysis was
00:45:17inappropriate for the twentieth century you couldn't I mean it's a very nice vision to have India is a collection of agrarian utopia is it's just irrelevant to haul the economy functions in the late twentieth century when you say functions you know functions in order to suit the needs
00:45:34of the powerful it would've function pretty bloody good for most agrarian Indian villages it just wouldn't have functioned well for them caplets relationships that needed to be maintained whoever knows the bridge in charge on the Indians that were in charge I'm I I I don't know what exactly
00:45:49went wrong but from the very beginning are certainly Nehru and the and the leadership did not try to implement gun these vision in a serious way largely because they also realized I mean it's it's it's not workable because most people want power ultimately %HESITATION first of all they
00:46:08want food I mean and they they could never let food and there is never discussed him ever know is gonna have foodies getting food only one now personally the Indian people but when you when you have you know we have a one point something me billion Indians to
00:46:22feed then %HESITATION you don't have a lot of room for for ever rose or from maneuvers in the economic field and know the amazing thing is that today in India more people die from eating too much than from eating too little even in the I. it's not just
00:46:41in the west yeah so for me that's just a diversion that's just will with vast mental we need so that's the %HESITATION no money laundering he's on yeah and so there's not enough is as I then we can abandon the idea this sketch to tease the problem organization
00:46:55is the problem there's too much food here there's not enough food over there why the food not can have a it doesn't suit the address of a powerful to the food for the food got there how to effect the interests of the powerful we organize ourselves and we
00:47:06challenge the interests of the powerful who the powerful is these companies here government went right I let's see if he question to Neil who are the powerful where power is in home does its function it's very complicated slamming the power is concealed the true power without getting too
00:47:23conspiratorial yeah I mean certainly the modern world for a couple of centuries one of the main functions of power is to conceal power there is kind of a low of history if you don't have a lot of power you try to exaggerate your power if you have a
00:47:38lot of power you tried to conceal it if you're a king in England in the twelfth century you don't have a lot of power but you try to conceal your weakness by these extravaganza displays of power so you go all ways like a pile of gold on your
00:47:55hands and you were all these furs and pearls and every now and then you tell people okay cut off his head and that makes people feel he's very powerful but actually he's very weak are because the state is very weak then you move to the modern age ends
00:48:12readers and governments really have enormous amounts of power but the one don't want to attract too much attention to it soul you know that they dressed plainly like an ordinary person and %HESITATION they they live in a much lower light I mean they don't go about telling people
00:48:27okay cut off his head because they don't want to draw attention to all that power it's very difficult to know what will power really lies in the in the twenty first century pageantry conceals ordinary miss out flags out perceptions all these all these pageantry or this ritual the
00:48:47ceremony helps us to believe there is a United States of America there is in England is not just a sort of an economic idea in a bit of land in some powerful people exploit the vulnerable it's of thing is a flag raising the eagle is a symbol there's
00:49:01a history it's real but bit by bit you I'm picking you on stage and you discover there's nothing there except some powerful people explosive some people without power that is your America that is your England that is your Israel your Saudi Arabia Ole just myths and stories so
00:49:20that the powerful can continue to exploit the powerlessness whether it's a crown on ahead or some stars and stripes on a flag so first thing that people have to be disabuse Duffy's they myths of nationalism all then whatever method is not in in them from acting in their
00:49:34own interests no I I eat it's more complicated than that of them thank okay than that but I'll get people moving kuts five %HESITATION so again if you take for example the the that the Arab spring so we all started off very optimistically like wonderful we have a
00:49:51democratic revolution of the people the people now gain power and it was hijacked and the Kalashnikovs were tuned in the wrong direction and we now have a much worse situation than before I mean Egyptians and Syrians and people in in in Yemen and Libya and if they look
00:50:09back and we said this is not why we had the revolution something really really failed yes because I think they had no idea there Islamic brotherhood have an idea whether you like the ideal you don't like the idea this is our idea this is how we see society
00:50:24this is our vision the people that are on Twitter I don't have a vision that is that I that's why I think it's these dangerous just to go always say on Twitter and tell people okay go to the streets take all the Kalashnikovs fight against power so it
00:50:40it you know if you can have you can have a week off revolution but then if you don't fully understand the actual polished rupture then your revolution will be hijacked and directed in in in in in towards goals which I'm not necessarily the best schools in the world
00:50:58for example like Spain in the thirties briefly because all of a knock I seen the please him ultimately becomes fascism comes near the about us so many example I mean the only a century ago in Russia you had the Bolshevik revolution and within a very short time you
00:51:16heard Stalin and the gulags and and and so forth and %HESITATION you don't buy it within two or three years the Bolsheviks were firing on the workers and peasants that they were supposed to represent you have the the famous case of of the Kronstadt sailors in the cook
00:51:32crossed to the workers which in nineteen seventeen we're kind of the album gods of the revolution and by the end of the revolution there Bolshevik government was massacring their very same workers in Kronstadt which in the beginning with the big heroes of the revolution it depends on whether
00:51:48you have an optimistic perspective on or there's some days where I feel human beings are capable of creating this utopia I believe it I believe that this technology can be harnessed to create more and a world of justice and liberty and then I'll hear like about some terrible
00:52:05refugee crisis in Burma and a very %HESITATION cheeses this just leave it as it is now this is I mean I don't have time when the trouble then when the aggravation but server ten for a moment to the optimistic perspective if you can identify the powerful and you
00:52:20can and you have a vision of a society that could be differently organized this for me is to ingredient that's a big if I mean if you look today the world what strikes me most is that nobody as far as I can tell nobody in on either the
00:52:33left or the right has any serious meaningful vision for where you monitor will being twenty fifty most of what you get is nostalgic fantasies about the pasta yes but you don't have a serious vision which takes into account a ani and biotechnology and climate change and all that
00:52:53and and really looks clearly what where can we be in twenty fifteen I wonder which ID is going to survive because it looks like we're already in this conversation was I well the idea that you'll value comes from your work this idea questionable vision idea may have to
00:53:10go out he's another idea that your identity is way you offer all mall where you live in it like they they you know when you at the end sapiens when you're talking about less often at the construction alternation the construction of tripe how these ideas all held together
00:53:27if it one way of changing the way the power operates is to dismantle the structures as you have just pointed out the danger is that the thing the replace easy is much worse I mean %HESITATION if you look at it in a place like Iraq then you'll start
00:53:44thinking actually there are some good things about nationalism when a country loses all sense of national identity and when your your loyalty becomes just to your local group for trying to bore or ethnic community and the state as a state has no longer any name any basis of
00:54:05of of national loyalty terrible things going to happen I mean nationalism has done a lot of bad things but we shouldn't forget the good side off of patriotism and nationalism which is basically to makes you care about strangers you mention taxes earlier I mean good patriots are willing
00:54:25to pay taxes soul that complete strangers who live on the other side of the country will have education and welfare and so forth and in many cases nationalism helps that because if it's if you if you think globally then you say it's not enough what about the people
00:54:44on the other side of the border what about the people on the other side of of the planet but if you look at many of the most are developed societies with the best will for systems with the best taxation systems you often find that they are the countries
00:55:00with the strongest sense of nationalism our countries like France or Sweden %HESITATION Japon have a much stronger sense of national unity and national identity the country's life Congal soon now ya orthodontist on which %HESITATION just you know complete failed states yes yes and also have had very different
00:55:20narratives arriving at the point at states particularly African examples of to carry such great post colonial buttons in that they have essentially if there are certainly reasons why Sweden has a much stronger sense of nationalisms in Congo and these reasons have a lot to do with the history
00:55:38of colonialism and the way that these African countries were established in the first place is European colonies but the end result is that just we need to be careful about you know the smooching all nationalism and patriotism as boogie man is it is a bad thing I don't
00:55:56want to do that this is what I would do is I want to look at the things that we discover and say how do we optimize these discoveries and weight when you are L. illustrate the way that early pre agricultural systems operated human systems human societies one can
00:56:18speculate that that is an organic natural that's what human beings will do if we have it without the advent of agriculture I'm suggesting weeks of by myself back to the stash maybe that just happened on its own anyway but what I'm saying is is if we're looking for
00:56:34some truth or some essence or some guidance cook all we not be looking at this is how human beings tend to organize themselves prior to economic models that Ben humanity like agricultural or industrial technology so there are certain truths that we can use to guide us human beings
00:56:56tend to do better in communities of a hundred hundred fifty whether have as much control over their systems as possible but then we argue that without any centralized power they will be fractious unit but but that yeah we need to go out patriotism and nationalism in people's willingness
00:57:13to pay tax help another person on the other side of the country that a some point you've out it's a human resource is a human human beings have love in them and they are willing to help out this year so I'm when we're establishing systems and models Olson
00:57:28we be looking at ways that in homes highlights I lumen night and ins in a way Mike practical these essential qualities where possible yes certainly what I mean %HESITATION %HESITATION we cannot go back to the stone age nine out but we do need to go forward beyond the
00:57:48current stage off you know national systems the same kind of loyalty or even love that you feel towards your compatriots in older too fluorescent even survive in the twenty first century you we need to start cultivating these feelings on a global level yours otherwise we constantly deal with
00:58:09issues like climate change always the rise of artificial intelligence it seems to me that there's going to have to be at the one thing that I think Gandhi a plan that can be made in that you know agrarian utopia that we discussed briefly earlier is all human beings
00:58:23are going to have to be willing to sacrifice their attraction into gadgets and compass on some level in a week me as an individual I've got be willing to go no I don't I will give the op I'll give the outpost sacrifice comfort Jacques privilege I'm willing to
00:58:40sacrifice them as an individual if the the %HESITATION I think we don't need to going to pretend the erection if you really realize what makes you truly happy in life are you don't need to make in a painful sacrifices if you realize that you actually are much more
00:58:57happy you know having a nice evening with friends than just sitting alone in front of the computer and watching YouTube clips or something like that then it's always sacrifice to know yourself away from the screen and call some friends and get to go he is initially though because
00:59:14there is such a thing isn't it as addiction there is such a thing as attachment and we've become attached to many many negative objects you become attached to to technology that's not benefit enough we've become attached to food isn't benefit nest types of sex types of world views
00:59:29perspectives on I cannot but think that on some level this must be a spiritual transition that will have to take place on the level of the individual but being coverage to more broadly and when you talk about the scale that that made the global scale it say it
00:59:43sometimes seems inconceivable that change of this nature could happen but when I look at the scope of your work and how they reaching back to the you know pre civilization this it seems not only possible or unity rather than what was possible ways and it's necessary yeah I
00:59:59I think it is possible it's not someone to be easy but it is if you if you look at what we already covered I mean ten thousand years ago people were loyal to a group of a hundred people they knew intimately you're loyal to your friends and families
01:00:16in a small clan off a hundred people know people can feel loyal to a hundred million strangers the rolled from feeling loyalty to a hundred relatives and friends all the way to feeling loyal to a hundred million strangers this is a very very long road and we've already
01:00:36covered it no the rolled from filling loyal to a hundred million strangers to feeling loyal to eight billion strangers this is a much much shorter rolled it's it's certainly psychologically it's much easier so you have these huge amount of strangers you don't know here and disputes amount of
01:00:56strangers you don't know their under the million eight billion people don't think well in large numbers it's the same so it's again it's it's not easy but I think we have already covered most of the roads towards this kind of of global %HESITATION loyalty I agree with you
01:01:13that there is of course a distinction between the conceptual and practical acceptance of groups of people you know I can live with the idea that we're all one global family but perhaps I can only really cope with no I if I were to examine the number of intimate
01:01:27relationships I have I bet it's about a hundred of a in many cases we replicate the community values that we were biologically designed to hand yeah we still have we still know intimately no more than a hundred people these did not change but never the less we have
01:01:42managed to build %HESITATION functioning communities national communities of millions of strangers but again this verb functioning at it for me again is it like is functioning for whom who to send a sense for everybody I mean if you are you pay taxes which are used to build hospitals
01:02:05in which a complete strangers he's cute from his or her disease I pay taxes so that somebody else's kids will get some kind of education so %HESITATION it will very far from having a completely egalitarian society and yes still some Polish structures and hierarchies and and a lot
01:02:23of exploitation and inequality but you know compared to two thousand years ago or ten thousand years ago we have these systems which do take care which do use all read my resources to take her to some extent of complete strangers I agree with that notion except easy a
01:02:44and again eight quarters with the wishes and the allocation of a centralized power system I've which we have very very limited control and you've out we have got to wrap up this conversation for a number of reasons one I mean for one reason because Billy fifty and you
01:02:59have a husband I've got a one door hisses familial raisins and will continue to think about these things what we all right from may I forget all of those of us who have different functions in this all of us have different roles to play different functions and I
01:03:13I am very grateful to you for the role the %HESITATION playing in conveying base information in in a way that is accessible and interesting sometimes scary but ultimately up to mystic I thank you thank at your husband as well for making it populist because otherwise I'd have ignored
01:03:32it I only like stuff its populace for both of you and to you in particular obviously thanks very much you about thanks for time thank you chase

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