Live interviews at Social Policy in San Jose, with first impressions from Curtis Hurbert, Joe Cieplinski, and Kaya Thomas.

This episode of Under the Radar is sponsored by:

  • Linode: High performance SSD Linux servers for all of your infrastructure needs. Get a $20 credit with promo code ‘radar2018’

Guest Starring:

Kaya Thomas, Joe Cieplinski, and Curtis Herbert

Links and Show Notes

United States


00:00:01Welcome tio welcome to under the radar this year but independent iowa staff development i'm david smith and i'm marco arment under the radar is never longer than thirty minutes so let's get started I think about that for a second we are live on the streets of san jose
00:00:15during wdc i'm going to do a slightly different episode through this week rather what we normally do because we have the benefit and the opportunity to talk to other independent developers other than mark on i about the things that were announced and you know in subsequent episodes we
00:00:32can unpack what they would think they mean and some the implications of that but it seemed like an interesting opportunity to just kind of get a first impression of what is the thing that different people are most excited about for me when i was announced yesterday As for
00:00:44recording so let's start i'm on security state let's let's start with you if possible What is the thing that you are most excited about for You know i think we got a lot of stuff there's a lot of kind of broad like far reaching big and small changes
00:00:59but the fbi and everything is there like one thing that you're most excited about is a kind of a broad array of diffuse things sure i mean i think that the have a real answer in a fake answer my fake cancer is that i'm my everything i'm most
00:01:10excited about is that there was no like holistic ground like ground rebuilding change that i have to spend my summer dealing with so i was worried that like well we're worried and excited that watch us for example was going to go and do this massive overhaul of how
00:01:25we make aps and have to rebuild all my things which would've been exciting but also meant i wouldn't have like seeing my family this summer and that would have been not not as exciting and so i mean i'm not here it's like that that maybe that's next year
00:01:35but this summer that's not the case and so i'm kind of excited about that thing i'm most excited about honestly is just some of the not seeing then make nice solid incremental improvements on the watch that the workout tracking stuff has gotten a lot better should be a
00:01:50lot needn't meter and nicer onda allow me to make an app that is mohr comparable to the built in app which is great on but also just on the audio side of things that they made they brought parody to essentially to a lot of the things that we
00:02:06were able to do on the iphone and now we can do it on the watch and i like that they are of all the platforms like some of the platforms felt like the ipad wasn't mentioned at all on stage essentially tv os was barely mentioned on stage but
00:02:18the watch and the iphone super before the show and as somebody who is focused on the watch i'm excited that the watch is continuing to get focusing attention when other things potentially seem to be getting slightly neglected at least for this year Yeah like the watch especially like
00:02:35you know i also have a lot of good stuff on the watch because they it seems like they read my post about why i couldn't make a podcast app that was good on the watch and it seems like they fixed every single thing on that list like i
00:02:46have to take a closer look to see like you know if this is actually as if all these things work the way i need them to and if they're reliable and if they're actually if there's any major shortcomings but it looks pretty good at first glance on dso
00:02:58i'm really before diving in playing that is a nice thing to is they've announced it as a marquis feature that background audio and audio related things is a thing so if there are problems if there are bugs it seems likely that you'll be able to actually get them
00:03:11fixed and have them work on it because they want a feature of the apple watch publicly announced now to be background audio to be able to play podcasts and audio books in long form audio content on the watch And i mean i think that makes sense and they
00:03:26dropped support for uh the serie zero watch as well which i was excited about but i think it was no that yeah they drop support for the series zero watch so i was watching us five only supports one two and three which is fantastic and i could also
00:03:41see this fall apples were going to be wanting to make as strong of a case as they can for why you're going to want to buy a new watch because all of that first generation people who bought a watch who might be on the fence like anything that's
00:03:54like i mean it makes me encourage that apple is going to fix bugs and make watch us as good as it could be this summer because this fall they're gonna have to re sell a bunch of people on their getting a new wife that's a really interesting because
00:04:07i bet cutting off the serie zero is probably what allowed them to do background fulltime audio because it probably had They probably was like the cut off of not having enough ram or something to keep the app T to keep more than like two after running in the
00:04:19background because you know the challenge back on audio is if you have a back on audio apa running and you also don't want to have a workout operating then you have to have both aps that stay open neither of them could be suspended at any time And so
00:04:30maybe this year zero just didn't have enough ram or something or the cpu would be too slammed to make that you know and just in general it was just it was just really slow in the battery life wasn't that great And so i mean i've been advocating for
00:04:41it to be going away for a long time that i'm glad to see that they it seems a little a little aggressive of a of a schedule for them to be using but that's great like i'm very glad that they were able to do that like that's nice
00:04:53for the small little nugget from yesterday that i was most excited about because building watch aps that air you know now i just only have to worry with the s two and the s three chips like they're so much more capable than that first generation ship So that
00:05:06should make my summer a lot easier and i think it's better for everybody to cause then like you know you figure like the vast majority of the watches that are out there being used or not syria zero you know is that the because the sales have gone up
00:05:15over time and so you know most of them presumably are now these much newer models and much better models and so if you could improve the os in key ways like background audio and various other things that you can do now for everybody that's a clear win and
00:05:31everybody went the developers win the user when everybody wins you have serious here owners but because they stopped selling the serie zero now like what about two years ago two years ago Yeah you know those batteries weren't lasting that long and a lot of syria zero owners like
00:05:45their battery no longer holds useful charge so they're devices are naturally aging themselves out anyway So you know that's i think this i think you're right it is a little bit aggressive although i think it's similar to what happened on the ipad with the ipad one first and
00:05:57two but ultimately it's going it's going to be way better for everybody and that he always gets better and it's not actually going to hurt that maybe because i like you but i look at my numbers the number one in use like chip is the s three chip
00:06:11so the syria's three watch and which is now there are now more of those in use then cirie zero one or two so like it's they're selling really well so they didn't Actually i heard that many people in doing it so it makes sense like they could have
00:06:26done it like they had the big slide during this during the keynote about iowa so they're like we go back all the way to twenty thirteen it isn't that awesome but i'm so glad on the watch they didn't hold themselves to the same kind of goal because now
00:06:38we can do so much more on the watch than we ever could have been able to If cirie zero was the baseline we had to meet and they can like the bill didn't stuff better too but certainly they can finally enable better stuff for developers to and that's
00:06:49that's just great All right so first thing you're doing i mean you probably already started first major thing you're working on Health and fitness stuff probably it's good So it's going to be adopting the new workout fbi's and workouts most plus predominant plus plus adding some of the
00:07:05serie shortcut stuff just in terms of for be it seems like i could do more sophisticated shortcuts for starting workouts which i could have done before but now i can do even slightly more clever stuff there as well as showing you data like servicing data about like asking
00:07:19siri how many steps what's my step count and surfacing that to you that's colome and then and after that i will go back to working on doing background audio for podcasting audio books awesome All right well i think we're going to move on Move on to guests now
00:07:35is that is that a solid plan Sounds great All right well thanks for letting us know your plans and i guess i'll go last after all the guests So anyway before we get to guess we respond to this week by lynn owed with lynn owed you could have
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00:09:16or use the promo code radar twenty eighteen at checkout Thank you so much to lynn owed for supporting this show I'm curtis over I am the author of the absolutes Uh cool I love slopes Thanks Wait you actually skier snowboarder No but i follow you on twitter and
00:09:34i look at all your you know your design progress and everything and your business model progress and everything And it's it's you know as any developer i think any of the developers should be following you Thank you So anyway so i'm curious curtis What is what are you
00:09:49looking forward to most out of the new stuff or what What is like most relevant to you here s o the first one just kind of fun is the air stuff so i shipped a are in slope So for anyone who doesn't know it's a skiing and snowboarding
00:10:03up at the end of the day you get a recap of all your speed's where you went on the mountain and something i added last season was a virtual three d mountain in the app itself so you can see you know whistler black home and you can see
00:10:14where you went on the mountain and replay it on dh this spring i had today our kid to it because it was in seeing kate kind of why not low hanging fruit but it actually ended up being kind of fun it's not a compelling air experience yet but
00:10:26it is something my users air really actually interested in surprisingly s so i think the shared experiences what they are kit will be pretty cool because for a lot of people they might not have slopes installed already or have any data in there so if they're one friend
00:10:39is using the app a lot and they're like oh look at this cool three d view now instead of having a crowd around a tiny iphone i could just have a player of you on the other person's phone and they can just look with their own phone and
00:10:50kind of explore around the air experience without having to hand over the other person's phone or do anything like that i don't think that's going to be a big compelling business thing for me but it's fun and i love shipping fun features and my use was really like
00:11:03this three d stuff so that's that's definitely something i'm interested in that's a really cool point because like i think this is one of the reasons why it's fun to follow you because even though i don't ski or snowboard like when you have a nap like this where
00:11:15you could you know you can do it a really basic way like a basically you know data driven after basic data display and everything you could do that but you go all out and you make it this cool like you know high high production value you know apfel
00:11:27of fun displays nice design fund features and everything and i feel like that's that's like one area where india's khun really do well yeah definitely because like you know if you're willing to put that amount of effort into something and have that kind of like fun sensibility and
00:11:40good design sensibility and if you couldn't do it fairly easily so you know i still like on on on an indie time budget right Well that's still took like three or four months to write that but yes sure speaking it yeah a lot of late night with trigonometry
00:11:53it was a bit of a nightmare Yeah really like it's it's such a cool thing i feel like i feel like that's kind of the quintessential apple app Yeah of like it's unique it's compelling that you won't find anywhere else Yeah it's like it's like a like you
00:12:07know maximum viable product like to use panics term to use like to do like the absolute most awesome job you can with what seems like it could be a simple task yeah yeah it's something that you wouldn't necessarily ever expect from a nap but then you see it
00:12:19and you're like oh well so at least for skiers and snowboarders we think in three d so like for me it was kind of an obvious like it's not like a running app where elevation matters a little but you care about the two d top down like for
00:12:30skiers and snowboarders the vertical is just as important as the latitude longitude coordinates so it makes sense in your head but you would never expected from a nap but once you see it you're like oh why does every ski app not do this like this is how we
00:12:45think yeah that's awesome yeah so yeah that's the fun one again i don't think it's going to really move the needle on my business or anything but my users love it and that's kind of what on therefore just like what were they saying One of the cornerstones of
00:12:57good app storing this say the union delight yeah yeah that does move the needle you looking homey stand out yeah anyone feature in isolation you might say well i don't know how much this matters but the sum of exactly this delightful app that people love to talk about
00:13:11that does very much matter that does move the needle on that on sales and everything yeah yeah the holistic picture we'll do it like this one feature won't move my needle by a combined with all the other three d stuff in the cool things that i d'oh it's
00:13:23almost like users expected this point out of slopes that i'm going to push the envelope and do these things with it So the one i'm actually interested in more from not a business standpoint i guess but not a fun feature is bringing you i could to the mac
00:13:36I added sing to my app last season s over the summer of twenty seventeen and since then i've gotten a lot of requests for ipad app obviously but i have gotten quite a few requests for a mac app interesting always to replay your data Yeah you know you
00:13:52have a bigger nicer screen you have a twenty seven inch like you want to see that three d data those visualizations larger and i totally get that s o i have already eh So i was thinking of an ipad app recently and i held off once mars a
00:14:05pan rumors broke i'm like ok i'm going to see what this is about yeah the more i invest in it andi i'm actually really thrilled now because it looks like it's going arguments around wwdc about what this will eventually be but i'm getting the read that like this
00:14:17will be basically europe is you i can't on the mac no app kid involved and it's basically your ipad app so i'm already planning on moving to an ipad app as just a viewer of your slopes data and i'm going to get a mac app for another five
00:14:32percent work like if everybody does exactly like the ratio that i always think about like you because the ipad app for me was about five percent more work on the iphone app Yeah and it's the l a isn't like if i could get a mac app for maybe
00:14:43another five percent how it was totally worth it well hanging for Yeah and again that's not something that i think is going to move the needle on its own but i think it helps provide a more complete platform experience and that's something that users really resonate with and
00:14:56shows them that this is somebody who's dedicated to shipping a good app S o i expect a lot of cops are going to do that but i'm excited just because now i don't have to do all my data on my tiny iphone well tiny iphone ten But i
00:15:09can actually view it on my five k display and that's going to be compelling i love having the ipad simulator up and bringing it up full screen and seeing my three d rendering on my mac now we'll have that native so that those two are think that too
00:15:21that i'm really looking forward to awesome well thanks curtis and where can people find you in europe s so you can find me on twitter as at parents the floor of the bird uh huh and you to find my app at get slopes starcom thanks a lot thanks
00:15:34for having me hi i'm george muskie i am me a developer and designer person indeed person in this community for quite a while and i host the release news broadcast and conference and stuff of that nature So joe what are you most excited about for anything that was
00:15:52announced or new changes that were happening like you know basically kind of like what's like top your mind right now It's not my mind is syria honestly and the work flow team and all that stuff because i think the way they've integrated it's interesting and often when i
00:16:05come out of one of these you know dubbed up situations like that day too is always my brain has exploded and i don't know what to really think about it and so i've really seen the sessions and dig into it i have a feeling that that's going to
00:16:16be a big deal more so than i'm thinking off you know it doesn't seem like that big a deal until you start digging into the possibilities I like apple's philosophy on this that's they're putting the power into the hands of the customer like they usually do instead of
00:16:29us the developer which means that the customer gets to choose which aps they want automate which ones they want to use with their voice and how which words they use in order to trigger those on I think it's a need approach is very different from amazon's and from
00:16:41google's approaches and it's i'll be interested to see how that works out long term yeah that's that's one area where i have a very strong interest because not only is there this big user side of it but then there's also the fbi developer side of it we're like
00:16:52we can make all these like vocabularies and you know actions for our abs and have them index and have them show up in the pro active suggestions and things like that on the syria watch phase like there's a lot there i think this really will have a major
00:17:05impact on usage of the devices and also what are aps khun d'oh yeah it's something we wanted for so long we've been begging apple for and uh it's finally here and now it's like it's overwhelming almost because we really don't know what to expect so yeah i can't
00:17:19i can't think of a nap where i wouldn't want some sort of intense possible So there's there's a lot of possibilities there Yeah i feel like this kind of opens up like poweruser uh and like levels like how like how good you can get how fast you can
00:17:32get how productive you can get how how customizable it'll work for you khun build and conveniently use on ios devices like before the ceiling has been kind of low on that and you know this doesn't blow it totally open but it makes a huge gain i think yeah
00:17:46definitely and like i said it's a nice also people won't be complaining anymore like apple please do something with syria while they did something so they finally did that and i don't know how it's going to shake out and you know i don't want to but just seeing
00:17:59how much of work flow is obviously still in there they have that team and i know those guys a little bit i've met him a few times it's just it's nice to see that that worked to have paid off over the last year and i'm very very excited
00:18:10about where that might go now a lot of a lot of the you know the work you do with release notes it's focused more on the business side of things that are there any major business or marketing type changes that you're excited about yeah i mean it looks
00:18:21like the mac app store uh you know obviously the redesign was way overdue er and it looks like they did more than just redesigned a store though because a couple of these major folks like panic and rich siegel i mean he was at our conference two years ago
00:18:34basically saying these are all the reasons why i left the mac app store which he did that at our that our conference he didn't talk saying like this is what it would take to get me back and that less was a long list and they didn't announce all
00:18:46that list so they must have done something that made him you know more inspired and i've heard there's sand boxing changes and things of that nature that we have a really hurled details yet so anything they can do to help that sort of thing and mayo panic is
00:18:56going to be able to sell you know subscription on the mac app store and stand alone on their web site they have more flexibility for us his business i think is a good thing on i think it's it's a testament to what the editorial team has done with
00:19:08the ios app store over the last year that if we're gonna bring that's in the mac and be serious about it and staff it up properly and feature apse the way they should and that might be a positive step well thanks a lot working people find you in
00:19:20your work you could find me released notes that tv if you want to check out that podcast you can always find you knew josea dot design and on twitter i'm just jacob monty that's panamanians net worth it you'll find some other way awesome Thanks a lot joe i'm
00:19:35kaya thomas on the crate of wee wee too which is an app directory of children's and young adult books were in my office of color great and what are you most excited about the things we got this week or announcements or changes for me the most exciting things
00:19:51so far was actually create ml i've actually not really been that interested in machine learning before i saw that because of the barrier to entry of actually trying to figure out howto get a model and train it and figuring out that part i think is just such a
00:20:06steep learning curve that i never really got into it and i think after seeing that demo was she created and trained a model in like two minutes i was blown away and i actually really wantto start learning more about the ab services that they have for machine learning
00:20:22he honestly that i was very excited about that as well because i don't know anything about machine learning i'd love to dive in and like and start experimenting with it playing around and i was facing the same problem they describe in stage of like if you go down
00:20:34to these all these different open source tools that roast they're designed to run on lenox servers and it was just really cumbersome of a process and a very intimidating process exactly so intimidating i mean when i was in school there was a machine leading class on a lot
00:20:48of it was you know showing up math and it was really intimidating so i don't even take the courts because i was like you know machine learning is for the phd folks on dh now you know with being able to do that in a playground i think it's
00:21:01really going to change the game and it's actually going to make machine learning more accessible to different types of folks who know don't feel like they need that kind of heavy academic understanding of what it what machine learning is supposed to be Yeah definitely he is i'm one
00:21:13of those people to like i don't have the academic background at all i understand the concept that understand the algorithms most of even the terms that people use that understand excited i just have never used that before i had been a lot of developers are in that position
00:21:24right Because like it's a it's a fairly recent thing and developments of pretty big wide world and big wide field and so i think most of us have not specialized in advanced research areas like that and so to make that more accessible to all of us it probably
00:21:39helps a lot yeah i mean i love that i love what they've done over the years with playgrounds as well on there some small updates that's coming there i think that apple's showing that they're really trying to make programming accessible to more folks and make it less intimidating
00:21:54and i really really appreciate that either changed you excited about I'm really excited about some of the small updates tax code i mean being a developer day today things like you know having in the change bar showing it there's a merge conflict you are you know showing it
00:22:11there's upstream changes i think that's going to make a lot of people's lives easier mine included because you know everyone's been in that kind of get black hole where this emerge and they're trying to re based on like you know it it takes hours to get out so
00:22:24i think doing something small updates like that really matters just focusing on the day to day life of a developer I'm really excited about some of those and multi carson editing that may be so happy because i've done some of most costa editing in sublime and so seeing
00:22:42seeing that come to exco finally is just like sigh relief you know there's been so many times we're like i've i've copied like a big list of properties or something out of x code into text mate done a big multi column and then pacing so clunky yeah yeah
00:22:58that would be great for him but that is exactly so i think they're you know working on some really you know small incremental changes that will make a big impact on developers day to day lives Yeah yeah well that's like because like i feel like every year like
00:23:10you know we talk about the big headlining features and all these little tools and ap improvements that are like less kind of lower profile we often like kind of forget about for a while but they just make our lives better for the next year or yeah exactly and
00:23:23i think that it seemed like the focus this year is aa lot of it is not necessary about the big big features but it's about you know small problem performance improvements like these just small incremental changes that are is going to make the experience for developers and user
00:23:37just much better on i really i really like that actually yeah is there is only one thing that you're that you're like excited to do first like a student you get back back home like back to back to work like what's the very first fbi or things that
00:23:50you think you might look into Well that's a good one already Donald x code beta way Yeah i don't it's code beta i think that the most thing i'm excited to play around with is ml and playgrounds I'm goingto go play around with great ml and playgrounds and
00:24:08and see what it can dio i mean the demo that she had really made me feel confident that you know i could actually train some data and play around and actually create an app that uses machine learning potentially Well thank you so much Where can people find you
00:24:21and your work S o i'm on twitter as kate thomas nine o one and my website is kaya thomas dot info and you could find me they're great Thanks guy So mark what are you most excited about like i think you came into this year with is it
00:24:37seemed like there was a lot of possibility and options for things the way things that could have gone that like could have changed dramatically change what your summer looked like so what would ultimately how do you feel about what happened What are you most excited about Mostly i'm
00:24:50very excited about that that i could finally do apple watch offline playback but the funny thing is i have already written that and it is that i already have that like pretty much ready to go so i don't think i'm actually going to need to do a lot
00:25:02of work on that ultimately what i'm even more excited about them that is the uk acts on the mac thing yeah which is fine because i can't do anything about that yet either So this's not going tio a bit summer in those areas probably but i'm very excited
00:25:19that i'll be able to bring my app to the mac in a way that is probably not that much more complicated than bring it from iphone ipad yeah that's it if it truly does work that way But it sure looks like it will that's going to be amazing
00:25:34for so many reasons you know for for app developers like us who you know who only really have time to for like one major code base to be able to bring our app to the mac where it makes sense i think is going to be a huge benefit
00:25:47because any time we can leverage the work we already have in a major way to like spread into a new market without adding a whole ton of maintenance work and coding work and everything that always benefits us you know that that's what we need to be smart with
00:26:01our time and leverage our code base as much as possible without having a whole bunch of separate things to maintain So if this truly give us that for the mac that's gonna be awesome and i'm just looking forward to it as a user of the mayor You know
00:26:12what there's so many aps that i would love to have quick access to on the mac that that i think it's great iowa saps and we don't have those a lot of the time and to be able to have that now more frequently with less work for the
00:26:25developers i think is a great it was a great idea so i'm even though that's still like you know at least a year out i'm very much looking forward to that and i'm very happy that apple even there's nothing we can do about it yet that they actually
00:26:35told us about it so that we could make better plans It is lovely that we now know that it's coming and also i think what i like about that is i think it gives them more flexibility about how they roll it out like in theory it doesn't even
00:26:47have to be next year don't debit every d c it could be next spring it could be whenever because it's pre announced its zx not this thing that they have to build the secrecy around and like manage in the same way or they could roll that out incrementally
00:26:59and have a like a is a simple a simpler version of it or the technology preview or whatever like they have a lot more options inflexibility around what they actually do there then if it had just been the secret the secret project that secret secret and it also
00:27:13means that consort to get feedback about it but they can i imagine they'll start to reach out to developers who will start you know using it ahead of time or at least getting feedback about how they might want to use it They're using it themselves like it seems
00:27:26like we're going really nice thing and i think i love as a independent developer i like that the leverage that provides that suddenly rather needing teo you jumping onto a new platform can often be a tremendous amount of work If it isn't a tremendous amount of work then
00:27:44it's just it's just like a lovely opportunity that we can take advantage of and it's just like it just leverage is all of the stuff we already have built and totally new platform and with a new a new mac app store that they seem to actually care about
00:27:54Now we hope they care about it more than they had for the last five years Is you've gotten like progressively worse and worse over time at least they've reset back to caring about it now and so we'll see where they go from here But at the very least
00:28:09signs of life which is great Yeah Awesome Well thanks a lot Everybody for listening Best Elect all the developers out there going through all these betas and beta ones Please don't tell me that one of your main phone over there i mean we all know many of us
00:28:22will but just released wait So baited to at least waits with bated tio Yeah they did To you lisa kind of excuse it It almost seems reasonable Anyway Thanks everyone Best of luck dealing with all this new stuff all summer and we will talk to you next week

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From development and design to marketing and support, Under the Radar is all about independent app development. It's never longer than 30 minutes. Hosted by David Smith and Marco Arment.
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