Full Transcript for Episode 114 - Murder, Grave Robbers and a Royal Physician

had to tee off in 44 00:02:27.419 --> 00:02:30.139 the second sitting in a chair. And it turns out 45 00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:32.340 I might just take up wheelchair golf. 46 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:34.689 Didn't know it was a thing. Don't even know if 47 00:02:34.710 --> 00:02:36.169 it is, but I'm into it. 48 00:02:37.150 --> 00:02:38.069 Wheelchair golf. 49 00:02:40.469 --> 00:02:41.009 Must be a thing. 50 00:02:41.509 --> 00:02:42.349 That could be quite good. 51 00:02:43.930 --> 00:02:45.169 Unless you get to hell. 52 00:02:45.229 --> 00:02:45.870 That'd be amazing. 53 00:02:45.949 --> 00:02:51.340 Um... We took a lot of shit in this, Alistair. 54 00:02:51.780 --> 00:02:53.240 Let's move along, shall we? 55 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:58.560 As we've been doing recently, a short story from you 56 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:02.379 and a longer story from me. It feels very old-school 57 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:04.099 Twisted Britain doing this. I was thinking about this the 58 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:05.949 other day when I was walking up to the pub 59 00:03:05.969 --> 00:03:08.710 for the quiz, funnily enough. We don't flip a coin 60 00:03:08.729 --> 00:03:12.389 to see who goes first, which would be nice to 61 00:03:12.409 --> 00:03:14.889 bring back, and then I couldn't find the original coin, so. 62 00:03:16.370 --> 00:03:18.330 There's no way you were going to still have the 63 00:03:18.389 --> 00:03:19.189 original coin. 64 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.240 It was like a plastic piece of eight from one 65 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:26.520 of the kids' play sets, and there's no chance. 66 00:03:26.539 --> 00:03:28.719 I mean, that's fucking long gone. 67 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:32.159 I had thought if I could find it, it would 68 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:33.939 have been a cool one to have just at least 69 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:38.620 for once, but we shall just continue with our you 70 00:03:38.659 --> 00:03:40.539 go first or I go first with the shorter one, 71 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:43.300 and then we'll do a bit of a longer one. 72 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.870 People seem to be liking it, so let's do it. 73 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:48.520 People are just looking back. 74 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:51.060 I think that might be true. 75 00:03:52.030 --> 00:03:53.949 Well, let's hope it's true, because if they're really sad 76 00:03:53.990 --> 00:03:55.490 we're back, then I don't know what we're doing. 77 00:03:56.169 --> 00:03:58.449 Yeah, that is rubbish. But I'm glad we're back, so 78 00:03:58.509 --> 00:03:59.879 it's fine, as long as we're enjoying it. 79 00:04:00.490 --> 00:04:03.330 And to be honest, as am I. And that's the 80 00:04:03.370 --> 00:04:04.280 main reason, really, isn't it? 81 00:04:04.729 --> 00:04:06.569 Yeah. 82 00:04:08.939 --> 00:04:09.080 The. 83 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:12.719 Longer story that i'm going to tell this evening was 84 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:15.060 one that we were going to do in person and 85 00:04:15.099 --> 00:04:17.370 obviously i said in the last recording that we did 86 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:19.790 if you don't hear this bit it's because we're not 87 00:04:19.829 --> 00:04:22.250 done in person so people won't have heard that bit 88 00:04:23.189 --> 00:04:26.870 so um we're not doing it on location but. 89 00:04:28.449 --> 00:04:30.209 I was telling leslie about it when i came in 90 00:04:30.550 --> 00:04:31.230 and uh her. 91 00:04:31.149 --> 00:04:34.050 First response was she was a witch but that to 92 00:04:34.089 --> 00:04:36.310 be honest is leslie's response to a lot of things 93 00:04:36.750 --> 00:04:40.050 in here um but I can assure you she was 94 00:04:40.089 --> 00:04:44.490 not a witch. Including some of the customers. Mainly customers, actually. 95 00:04:44.730 --> 00:04:48.970 Just shouts it as they walk through the door. You've 96 00:04:49.009 --> 00:04:50.329 called me worse than a witch before. 97 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:56.160 Just me, apparently. Just me. Anyway, we'll get to me 98 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:57.040 in a bit. 99 00:04:57.459 --> 00:04:59.220 Yeah, we'll get to you in a bit. First, I'm 100 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:00.279 going to really annoy you. 101 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:05.720 Oh, God. Where is this set geographically, Alistair? 102 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:07.160 Stirling. 103 00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:11.329 Sterling, very nice. Is there crime in it? 104 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:13.569 Is there crime? Absolutely. 105 00:05:14.930 --> 00:05:21.329 Right. Go on then. I hate a non-solved one, you 106 00:05:21.389 --> 00:05:21.970 know that. 107 00:05:22.269 --> 00:05:23.870 I know you do. 108 00:05:24.410 --> 00:05:25.110 Right, go on then. 109 00:05:25.730 --> 00:05:29.069 Two Sterling stories tonight though, it's good, I like that. 110 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:30.819 I know, I thought I'd give it a Sterling one 111 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.100 because you're doing a Sterling one. 112 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:34.860 Nice, let's go for it. 113 00:05:36.339 --> 00:05:41.639 So in St Ninian's, which we know well. On New 114 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:48.740 Year's night, 1894, the brutal murder of Margaret Gillifan took place, 115 00:05:49.060 --> 00:05:50.399 shocking the public at the time. 116 00:05:51.420 --> 00:05:51.660 Mrs. 117 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.620 Gillifan had been found the following afternoon lying dead on 118 00:05:55.670 --> 00:05:59.550 her kitchen floor in a large pool of blood. She'd 119 00:05:59.569 --> 00:06:02.430 been cut severely about the face with a sharp implement 120 00:06:03.389 --> 00:06:05.889 and had other marks of violence over her whole body. 121 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:10.240 The worst injury, however, which at the time drew parallels 122 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.680 to the infamous murders in Whitechapel, which we tend not 123 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:18.259 to mention, was the injury to her abdomen, which was 124 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.230 said to have been lacerated to a terrible extent and 125

00:06:21.370 --> 00:06:22.430 horribly mutilated. 126 00:06:24.670 --> 00:06:26.269 We'll not go into the ones we don't talk about 127 00:06:26.290 --> 00:06:29.750 too much, but the one thing I always remember about 128 00:06:29.790 --> 00:06:32.529 them is the kind of, It was a doctor, it 129 00:06:32.550 --> 00:06:35.269 was a vet, it was something, it was the precision 130 00:06:35.310 --> 00:06:36.480 cutting when you're. 131 00:06:36.379 --> 00:06:37.180 Talking about the abdomen. 132 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.079 That was the thing that always jumps out about his 133 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:41.720 most famous Whitechapel murders. 134 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:42.379 Yeah. 135 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:48.160 Now, suspicion soon fell on Mrs. Gillifan's husband, Daniel, who 136 00:06:48.220 --> 00:06:50.360 was a mill worker at Cambus Barron. 137 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:52.399 Mr. 138 00:06:52.459 --> 00:06:56.120 Gillifan was 57 years old and he and his wife 139 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.589 had been described as much addicted to the drink. 140 00:07:02.389 --> 00:07:06.189 Certainly my type of people. Yes. Mrs. 141 00:07:06.230 --> 00:07:09.740 Gillifin was also described as having rather a loose character, 142 00:07:10.459 --> 00:07:13.259 which had been the cause of many quarrels between the couple. 143 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:17.220 And hence, it had been surmised that perhaps Mr. Gillifin 144 00:07:17.259 --> 00:07:19.319 had found his wife in the company of another man 145 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:23.850 and had stabbed her in a moment of passion. 146 00:07:26.329 --> 00:07:28.490 Loose of character, meaning she was. 147 00:07:29.730 --> 00:07:30.089 Loosey. 148 00:07:31.189 --> 00:07:33.490 Yeah, they were going to bury her in a Y-shaped coffin. 149 00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:36.639 Very good. I enjoy it. 150 00:07:37.769 --> 00:07:39.750 And it's not because she enjoyed the village people dance. 151 00:07:40.410 --> 00:07:46.040 No, it's not. Gillifin, who was well liked by those 152 00:07:46.060 --> 00:07:49.579 who knew him and described as bearing the character of 153 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:54.339 an industrious man and when sober, was peaceful in disposition, 154 00:07:54.939 --> 00:07:59.370 was arrested and committed to prison for further examination. Two 155 00:07:59.490 --> 00:08:01.910 pocket knives... were found on him at the time of 156 00:08:01.970 --> 00:08:04.870 his arrest, with the larger of the two having been 157 00:08:04.930 --> 00:08:09.629 stained with blood on both sides of the blade. His 158 00:08:09.689 --> 00:08:12.149 version of events was that he and his wife had 159 00:08:12.170 --> 00:08:15.310 been drinking on New Year's Day, and in the evening 160 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.829 he had gone out. When he came back at about 161 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:20.959 eight o'clock, he'd found his wife lying drunk at the 162 00:08:20.980 --> 00:08:23.680 foot of the stairs leading to their house on Main 163 00:08:23.740 --> 00:08:24.319 Street in St. 164 00:08:24.339 --> 00:08:24.699 Nillian's. 165 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.759 He dragged her upstairs, put her to bed, and gave 166 00:08:28.779 --> 00:08:32.809 her some whisky. At this point, Gillifan's grown-up son had 167 00:08:32.870 --> 00:08:35.230 come into the house and asked where his mother was, 168 00:08:35.789 --> 00:08:37.509 and he was told by his father that she was 169 00:08:37.570 --> 00:08:42.929 in bed. Gillifan and his son then went out together 170 00:08:43.049 --> 00:08:46.759 and attended the home of another son, where they enjoyed 171 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.080 the New Year's festivities, returning home at about four o'clock 172 00:08:50.139 --> 00:08:50.600 in the morning. 173 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:52.720 Solid night. 174 00:08:53.299 --> 00:08:54.679 I'd also like to put a note in here that 175 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:56.620 if any of my children are ever listening to this, 176 00:08:57.700 --> 00:08:59.759 If you find me drunk, just give me a whiskey 177 00:08:59.779 --> 00:09:02.519 and put me to bed is the perfect answer. 178 00:09:03.740 --> 00:09:05.799 Highland Park and a blanket, that's all you want. 179 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:08.019 Literally, I'm happy, man. 180 00:09:10.169 --> 00:09:12.730 Gillifin, who had told the police that he'd gone straight 181 00:09:12.769 --> 00:09:15.669 to bed, also stated that he slept until 8am the 182 00:09:15.710 --> 00:09:19.110 next morning. Which, since he didn't get in till 4, 183 00:09:19.110 --> 00:09:20.289 is only a four hour sleep. 184 00:09:20.769 --> 00:09:22.519 It's a nap, not a sleep, yeah. 185 00:09:23.909 --> 00:09:25.730 When he got up, he noticed that his wife was 186 00:09:25.769 --> 00:09:27.490 lying in the same position that he'd left her in 187 00:09:27.529 --> 00:09:30.509 the previous evening. Gillifin said that he asked her if 188 00:09:30.549 --> 00:09:32.870 she was feeling better, and she told him she was. 189 00:09:33.629 --> 00:09:37.210 Giving her some more whiskey, he then went out and 190 00:09:37.250 --> 00:09:39.309 was told later in the day by a friend of 191 00:09:39.370 --> 00:09:40.149 his wife's murder. 192 00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:46.289 Right, so he's saying she was fine when I left her. 193 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:51.820 Yes, exactly. Mrs Gillifin's body was taken to the mortuary 194 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.019 at the county buildings. and a post-mortem was carried out 195 00:09:55.139 --> 00:10:00.009 by doctors McFadden and Chalmers. The post-mortem, however, did not... 196 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:03.389 confirm the report that her death had been caused by stabbing. 197 00:10:04.379 --> 00:10:07.340 It seems that while at first the abdominal wounds and 198 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.779 the excessive bleeding indicated the use of a knife or 199 00:10:10.820 --> 00:10:14.299 another sharp implement, the doctors were of the opinion that 200 00:10:14.340 --> 00:10:17.259 the injuries may have been caused by

by a succession 201 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.100 of brutal kicks with the toe of a heavy boot 202 00:10:20.500 --> 00:10:21.440 and not a knife. 203 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:25.029 There's a very distinct difference. 204 00:10:26.210 --> 00:10:32.169 There is, yes. They were tears rather than cuts. 205 00:10:33.169 --> 00:10:35.200 Okay. I was thinking like. 206 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.179 Bruising, like intensive bruising would be from a kick if 207 00:10:42.220 --> 00:10:43.179 it's been so hard. 208 00:10:44.049 --> 00:10:46.590 It's so hard that it stretches the skin and tears it. 209 00:10:47.389 --> 00:10:50.669 Yeah, and that's not a bladed wound. 210 00:10:51.149 --> 00:10:55.200 Exactly. So yeah, they were ragged tears rather than cuts, 211 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:58.779 but they were so severe that she was almost eviscerated. 212 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:02.279 Unless he had inspector gadget style boots when he clipped 213 00:11:02.299 --> 00:11:04.259 his heels together, the blades came out the front of them. 214 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:08.720 Oh my God, that'd be great. Still the greatest name 215 00:11:08.740 --> 00:11:09.899 for a pub we've ever come up with. 216 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:14.919 It's go-go gadget arms. I agree. 217 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:21.259 Now, as Mrs. Gillifin was reportedly in the habit of 218 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:25.740 receiving visits from other men, the case against her husband 219 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:29.460 was by no means certain, particularly as Mr. Gillifin was 220 00:11:29.659 --> 00:11:32.120 absent from the house on New Year's Day for quite 221 00:11:32.139 --> 00:11:35.190 a long time, long enough to allow another person to 222 00:11:35.289 --> 00:11:39.669 enter the house and commit the murder. Having appeared in court... 223 00:11:40.149 --> 00:11:43.789 Gillifan was remanded in custody and the case was remitted 224 00:11:43.850 --> 00:11:44.649 to the sheriff court. 225 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:49.929 It's... I don't think we need to say it again 226 00:11:49.990 --> 00:11:52.419 and again, but it's always a love or money that 227 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:55.139 is the usual deriver of these things. 228 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:56.600 Absolutely. 229 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:02.379 It's always the partner that's the first arrest. Very rarely 230 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.519 do we come across a different scenario. 231 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:05.730 It is. 232 00:12:07.070 --> 00:12:10.090 Now, the follow-up to this was hard to research. And 233 00:12:10.450 --> 00:12:11.970 it's a bit of a mystery because there are no 234 00:12:12.289 --> 00:12:15.929 court records of there ever having been a trial against 235 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:20.970 Daniel Gillifan. In fact, he also appears on the 1901 236 00:12:20.970 --> 00:12:24.230 census for Sterling. So it's very unlikely that he was 237 00:12:24.269 --> 00:12:25.840 convicted of causing his wife's death. 238 00:12:28.179 --> 00:12:31.279 Would the census have covered? No, there wouldn't have been 239 00:12:31.299 --> 00:12:33.620 a male's prison here. Not at that point. 240 00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.980 The Tollbooth would have obviously been closed by then. But 241 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:38.919 a census wouldn't have covered him in a cell. 242 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.879 No, absolutely not. The Sterling Observer reported on the 10th 243 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.830 of January, 1894, that another young man named Watson was 244 00:12:49.429 --> 00:12:52.169 being looked for by the police for questioning due to 245 00:12:52.230 --> 00:12:55.009 information from neighbours that he'd been a frequent visitor to 246 00:12:55.029 --> 00:13:00.730 the house when Mr. Gillifin was out. However, that's the 247 00:13:00.830 --> 00:13:02.740 only other clue we have. There was no record of 248 00:13:02.769 --> 00:13:05.820 a trial for this man either, and nothing further reported 249 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:10.110 in the press regarding this case. It can only be assumed, therefore, 250 00:13:10.149 --> 00:13:16.750 that the charges against Daniel were dropped and the other man, Watson, 251 00:13:17.230 --> 00:13:21.009 was never found and the culprit for this atrocious crime 252 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:22.299 was never caught. 253 00:13:23.820 --> 00:13:24.440 So either. 254 00:13:24.460 --> 00:13:27.320 I mean, I like the fact that the Stirling Observer 255 00:13:27.340 --> 00:13:29.600 is still going to this day. You can literally buy 256 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:31.580 one now, so that's 130 odd years. 257 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:37.149 That's cool. Is this a case of the case you 258 00:13:37.169 --> 00:13:37.730 did last week? 259 00:13:39.019 --> 00:13:41.399 It was lost court records we're not thinking lost court 260 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.799 records here because it's much more modern no yeah just 261 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:46.399 dropped entirely. 262 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:48.539 It's up to date enough that if there had been 263 00:13:48.580 --> 00:13:50.139 a trial there would be a record of it. 264 00:13:52.299 --> 00:13:55.289 So we don't know who kicked her. 265 00:13:55.190 --> 00:13:57.950 To death we don't know who kicked her to death. 266 00:13:58.850 --> 00:14:01.129 But we do know it was definitely a boot rather 267 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:05.450 than a knife yes we do so what about the 268 00:14:05.470 --> 00:14:06.590 knife that was found. 269 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:10.840 The knife that was found, the husband, Daniel, claimed that 270 00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:12.039 the blood on it was his. 271 00:14:14.289 --> 00:14:15.370 And they'd have no way of testing that? 272 00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:19.169 No, not in 1890. 273 00:14:19.169 --> 00:14:24.889 No. You're right, I am quite annoyed about this, Alistair. 274 00:14:24.929 --> 00:14:27.789 Eight or nine minutes of my life now, I'm going 275 00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:30.139 to think about it for way more time than eight 276 00:14:30.179 -->

00:14:30.740 or nine minutes. 277 00:14:32.379 --> 00:14:34.019 I have to go and bloody look this up, aren't I? 278 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:43.460 Good luck. Okay, thanks. what I would say is that horrific. 279 00:14:44.899 --> 00:14:45.139 Yeah. 280 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.740 And if we have to take the facts that you've 281 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:54.200 presented to us as verbatim, which we shall do, because 282 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.649 it's the only ones we have, that man left his 283 00:14:57.710 --> 00:15:01.809 wife with a hangover and a whiskey and somebody else 284 00:15:01.929 --> 00:15:02.610 kicked her to death. 285 00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:03.889 Yes. 286 00:15:05.529 --> 00:15:07.850 What a way to go, though. Imagine a beating so bad... 287 00:15:08.570 --> 00:15:12.370 that it looks like a stabbing until you get to 288 00:15:12.389 --> 00:15:12.909 the coroner. 289 00:15:14.149 --> 00:15:14.490 Fuck. 290 00:15:16.950 --> 00:15:19.289 I do know what I would look for information about 291 00:15:19.309 --> 00:15:22.429 this if I was to go and do that, and 292 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:27.779 I probably will. We did the old town jail up 293 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:31.600 the road here. We did the escape room recently, Roslyn 294 00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:32.139 and I in there. 295 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:33.299 Oh, nice. 296 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:36.139 And I will happily give them a shout out. It 297 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:37.419 was superb. 298 00:15:37.889 --> 00:15:40.600 Excellent escape room. Really enjoyed it. Set in one of 299 00:15:40.629 --> 00:15:45.799 the old governor's offices for the jail. Setting perfect. 300 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.620 Story was really good. Hats off to them. They've got 301 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:51.340 a really cool gift shop at the bottom that's got 302 00:15:51.379 --> 00:15:55.899 loads of historical books about Sterling and Victorian era. 303 00:15:55.700 --> 00:16:02.240 Sterling and crime and the people who were inmates in 304 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.379 the Old Town Jail. And it was one of those 305 00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:07.360 ones where Rosalind had to drag me out before I 306 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:09.490 went I could spend £ 100 on books. 307 00:16:09.370 --> 00:16:11.169 In here without trying. 308 00:16:11.409 --> 00:16:11.889 Yeah, easy. 309 00:16:11.909 --> 00:16:14.389 So I may go back and have a flick through 310 00:16:14.409 --> 00:16:17.440 and see if I can find her. Yeah, you're right, 311 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:19.580 I am ever so slightly annoyed about that. 312 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:21.159 I knew you would be. 313 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:26.850 Thanks. We are staying local. 314 00:16:27.070 --> 00:16:30.129 That's probably the two most local stories that we'll have 315 00:16:30.250 --> 00:16:31.789 ever done or will ever do, unless I buy all 316 00:16:31.809 --> 00:16:34.029 the books, in which case we've got a fuckload more 317 00:16:34.049 --> 00:16:34.370 to do. 318 00:16:34.389 --> 00:16:34.909 Yeah. 319 00:16:35.740 --> 00:16:40.830 We did a horrendous Sterling child kidnapping and murder a 320 00:16:40.850 --> 00:16:41.210 while ago. 321 00:16:42.149 --> 00:16:42.429 We did. 322 00:16:42.629 --> 00:16:44.509 And we also did The Last Man Hanging Sterling. I 323 00:16:44.509 --> 00:16:46.690 can't remember if that was yourself or Nadine that did it. 324 00:16:46.789 --> 00:16:47.470 Alan Mayer is. 325 00:16:47.450 --> 00:16:50.200 One of my favourite stories of all time. The Last 326 00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:54.240 Man Hanging Sterling. He's right up there on my bad 327 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:57.980 bastards list. Probably one of the worst. And if you 328 00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:59.600 haven't listened to that episode, I'm not going to give 329 00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:01.379 you a rundown of it now. 330 00:17:01.419 --> 00:17:03.169 Go back and listen to it. There we are. That's what. 331 00:17:04.829 --> 00:17:07.490 Library of podcasts is for. Nice. 332 00:17:07.529 --> 00:17:09.450 Well, I've got a couple of sterling ones in the 333 00:17:09.470 --> 00:17:10.769 back pocket to write up, actually. 334 00:17:11.470 --> 00:17:11.670 Nice. 335 00:17:11.869 --> 00:17:14.450 Well, let's do a few more then. I'll go and see. 336 00:17:14.750 --> 00:17:15.630 All right, I'll go and buy the books. 337 00:17:16.250 --> 00:17:18.319 You've convinced me, Alistair, without even trying to convince me. 338 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:20.099 Yeah, it wasn't difficult. 339 00:17:21.690 --> 00:17:23.519 It wouldn't be difficult for this kind of stuff, really, 340 00:17:23.539 --> 00:17:24.859 would it? No. 341 00:17:27.380 --> 00:17:30.220 Okay, another sterling story for you this evening. 342 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:35.480 This was... I don't know if we can call it 343 00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:43.180 fully ended. Originally, like I said, it's not... It's not unfinished. 344 00:17:44.009 --> 00:17:48.549 It's not fully unfinished, but there's a lot of associated 345 00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:53.849 story that goes alongside it. It is Sterling-based, but it 346 00:17:53.869 --> 00:17:54.950 would have been nice if we could do this on 347 00:17:54.990 --> 00:17:58.690 location because we could have walked to where it happened. 348 00:17:58.910 --> 00:18:08.140 But this is a case that happened... even closer to 349 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:09.619 the settle in than St. Denis St. 350 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:14.359 Denis is a couple of miles away roughly I'm going 351 00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:21.130 to take you back yeah 200 years roughly but I'm 352 00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:23.990 only going to take you about 400 metres away from 353 00:18:24.029 --> 00:18:26.130 where I sit right now front door of the pub 354 00:18:26.150 --> 00:18:28.230 is literally there and if you go out. 355 00:18:28.190 --> 00:18:29.670 There and up the hill that way. 356 00:18:31.009 --> 00:18:33.230 Up the hill that way is Sterling's most famous building 357 00:18:34.049

--> 00:18:39.990 the castle which has been stood there for 1,200 years 358 00:18:40.049 --> 00:18:41.970 or something ridiculous like that. 359 00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:43.279 Parts of it date back that way. 360 00:18:43.299 --> 00:18:46.720 I'm going to take you to the graveyard next to 361 00:18:46.779 --> 00:18:51.720 Stirling Castle, attached to the Church of the Holy Root. Now, 362 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.119 one of our very good friends who is a member 363 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:55.660 of our pub quiz team in here, Claire, is one 364 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.660 of the staff in there. She does the tours and 365 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.019 all that kind of stuff, and she's always said that 366 00:19:01.059 --> 00:19:03.119 we should go and do a recording in the Church 367 00:19:03.140 --> 00:19:05.000 of the Holy Root. It's just never actually happened, but 368 00:19:05.019 --> 00:19:09.369 we'll maybe get around to it one day It's an 369 00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:14.990 incredible building, the church itself. And up that top of 370 00:19:15.589 --> 00:19:19.710 Stirling Town is a series of historic buildings from Old 371 00:19:19.950 --> 00:19:21.910 Town Jail I talked about a minute ago, right through 372 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:23.990 the Church of the Holy Road, the toll booths there. 373 00:19:24.009 --> 00:19:27.950 Steps to the toll booth is where they found the 374 00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:30.630 body that they think was Alan Mayer. And then you 375 00:19:30.650 --> 00:19:33.349 get up to the top, the castle. But why am 376 00:19:33.390 --> 00:19:36.390 I talking about this? Well, actually, I'd like to talk 377 00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:43.440 to you about the residents of the graveyard. And one 378 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.920 particular resident, not living, obviously, because a resident of a 379 00:19:46.940 --> 00:19:49.599 graveyard tends to not to be i'd like to talk 380 00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:53.059 about one in particular um well she was at least 381 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.339 a resident for a while this to me is one 382 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.529 of those particular types of crimes that you can't really 383 00:19:59.589 --> 00:20:03.170 get your head around we've talked in the past about 384 00:20:03.190 --> 00:20:07.299 um many different crimes that, I'm not saying that we 385 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:08.640 can get our heads around them, but at least we 386 00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:11.619 can understand almost motive when it comes to money or 387 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.140 lust or love or whatever it happens to be. This 388 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:18.150 one in itself is one that I just can't process. 389 00:20:19.769 --> 00:20:22.390 It's not particularly clever. It's not because any criminals have 390 00:20:22.410 --> 00:20:26.890 pulled off any kind of elaborate master plan. It's because 391 00:20:26.930 --> 00:20:29.609 I find myself asking myself one simple question. Why would 392 00:20:29.650 --> 00:20:35.630 you do that? So in November 1822, A woman was 393 00:20:35.670 --> 00:20:38.890 buried in the churchyard of the Church of the Holy Root. 394 00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:43.849 Her name was Mary Stevenson. She was 55-year-old and a widow, 395 00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:47.650 and she'd been laid to rest by her family. However, 396 00:20:47.670 --> 00:20:51.410 within days, somebody had opened her grave, broken open her coffin, 397 00:20:51.670 --> 00:20:55.490 and taken her body. The burial clothes had been left behind, 398 00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.339 but the body had vanished. The people implicated in this 399 00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:04.990 affair were a local gravedigger, a servant street sweeper and 400 00:21:05.009 --> 00:21:07.549 a young medical student by the name of John Forrest. 401 00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:12.619 If someone, for instance, wanted to obtain a recently buried body. 402 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.079 Without attracting too much attention, a person with that kind 403 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:18.660 of knowledge could be quite useful. 404 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:22.769 Absolutely, and a lot of medical students did. 405 00:21:22.650 --> 00:21:23.250 Do it as well. 406 00:21:24.910 --> 00:21:28.049 So why would anyone want Mary's body in the first place, Alistair? 407 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:32.380 This wasn't a murder for profit. There's no evidence that 408 00:21:32.420 --> 00:21:37.839 Mary was killed. She had died quite naturally, buried, and 409 00:21:37.859 --> 00:21:41.279 then allegedly taken from her grave. The motive was connected 410 00:21:41.299 --> 00:21:44.549 to a trade that was both illegal and deeply unsettling. 411 00:21:45.710 --> 00:21:48.069 To understand it, we need to look at, exactly as 412 00:21:48.089 --> 00:21:50.349 you say, the state of medical education in the early 413 00:21:50.589 --> 00:21:56.289 19th century. During this period, Edinburgh was, and probably still is, 414 00:21:56.329 --> 00:22:00.839 considered one of Britain's leading centres for medical teaching. Students 415 00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:03.559 travelled there from all over to study anatomy and surgery, 416 00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:08.680 and the demand for practical instruction was growing. Textbooks and 417 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:11.259 illustrations can only take you so far. To understand the 418 00:22:11.299 --> 00:22:15.799 human body properly, you need to examine it directly. And 419 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:23.559 that meant dissection. Yes. Big problem with that. Not a 420 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:29.180 huge supply of bodies. Now, there was legislation in law 421 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:30.559 that allowed for certain bodies. 422 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:35.980 To be used for... Anatomical? I've been trying this all day, honestly. Anatomical. 423 00:22:38.450 --> 00:22:40.789 There was legislation under law that allowed for certain bodies 424 00:22:40.829 --> 00:22:44.569 to be used for anatomical study, including those of executed murderers, 425

00:22:45.089 --> 00:22:50.079 under legislation introduced in 1752. But the supply was nowhere 426 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.890 near enough to meet the needs of the expanding medical schools. Now, 427 00:22:53.910 --> 00:22:57.599 this is something we've talked about, Burke and Hare-esque. Now, 428 00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:00.259 Burke and Hare are the most famous people that anyone 429 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.240 will ever talk about in this kind of subject. And 430 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.079 in that time period, somewhat the same kind of time 431 00:23:07.099 --> 00:23:11.000 for Burke and Hare, probably exactly the same time, it 432 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.710 was understood and allowed that the bodies of somebody who'd 433 00:23:14.730 --> 00:23:16.250 been put to death by the state. 434 00:23:17.410 --> 00:23:18.809 for murder. 435 00:23:18.589 --> 00:23:21.569 And specifically for murder could be used in medical trade 436 00:23:21.589 --> 00:23:23.009 because there was no right to the body to be 437 00:23:23.029 --> 00:23:28.630 given up afterwards. However, as I say, there's nowhere near 438 00:23:28.670 --> 00:23:31.809 enough murder. It doesn't matter how many episodes of this 439 00:23:31.829 --> 00:23:36.750 we ever do. There wasn't enough murderers to fulfill the 440 00:23:36.789 --> 00:23:41.509 needs of the growing education system in Edinburgh. And as always, 441 00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:44.819 where there is a demand, there is money to be made. 442 00:23:47.529 --> 00:23:53.529 Enter the Resurrectionists. Not an 80s hair metal band, although 443 00:23:53.650 --> 00:23:57.539 it would have been a wonderful name for one. It's 444 00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:03.579 a rather grand name for a decidedly unglamorous trade. They 445 00:24:03.619 --> 00:24:05.900 weren't bringing the dead back to life, as you would 446 00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:10.359 expect a resurrectionist to do. They were digging them up, 447 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:12.440 stealing their bodies. 448 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:15.700 They were raising the dead. 449 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:21.319 I suppose you could technically say that they were in 450 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:22.859 a manner of speaking, I suppose, yeah. 451 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:24.500 It's a macabre nickname. 452 00:24:26.299 --> 00:24:31.680 Berry. Well, we do talk about the weird and the macabre, 453 00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:31.980 so yes. 454 00:24:33.579 --> 00:24:35.700 Recently, Berry Body could be sold to people who needed 455 00:24:35.740 --> 00:24:40.660 them for anatomical instruction. The trade operated in a legally 456 00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:43.539 grey area because. 457 00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:47.900 Grave robbing caused widespread... Grave robbing caused widespread fear and 458 00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:50.160 anger among families and communities. 459 00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:53.740 Imagine burying somebody you loved, then worrying that their grave 460 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:58.200 might not remain undisturbed. And that fear isn't a matter 461 00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.660 of simple folklore. People took practical steps to protect their dead. 462 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.299 Mortars. Yeah. 463 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:10.740 Which are essentially heavy iron structures or protective devices. 464 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:14.619 I always picture them as like whale's ribs. 465 00:25:15.619 --> 00:25:17.630 Is that the right kind of description? You know, just 466 00:25:17.950 --> 00:25:19.789 over the top that were dug really deep in the 467 00:25:19.829 --> 00:25:23.309 ground so you couldn't dig them up. They were basically made, 468 00:25:24.289 --> 00:25:25.809 they were put in place to make it harder to 469 00:25:25.890 --> 00:25:28.789 get to a coffin. Now, that wouldn't have been somebody 470 00:25:28.829 --> 00:25:31.690 who was 55-year-old and sterling and a widower. Wouldn't have 471 00:25:31.710 --> 00:25:34.869 been of the type of person that could have afforded 472 00:25:34.890 --> 00:25:36.390 to put a mortise safe in. 473 00:25:36.869 --> 00:25:38.859 No, you're talking Lord Moncrief or something. 474 00:25:39.630 --> 00:25:40.009 Exactly. 475 00:25:40.569 --> 00:25:42.730 It would cost you a huge amount of money. And 476 00:25:42.789 --> 00:25:44.970 families did spend a lot of money trying to protect 477 00:25:45.009 --> 00:25:52.140 the body that they had already paid to bury. Death 478 00:25:52.420 --> 00:25:56.640 is usually supposed to bring peace or a moment of. 479 00:25:56.660 --> 00:25:56.740 A. 480 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.980 Moment in the middle of grieving to say that this 481 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:05.559 is a statement point, if that makes sense. Whereas it 482 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.559 brings a fresh set of worries... in the 1820s to families. 483 00:26:11.339 --> 00:26:13.900 And in Stirling, a young medical student by the name 484 00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:17.279 of John Forrest was about to become associated with that 485 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:22.250 very trade. Forrest was born in 1804 in Stirling. His 486 00:26:22.289 --> 00:26:24.490 father had been a physician in the town and the 487 00:26:24.529 --> 00:26:28.950 young Forrest was studying medicine. Later accounts of the case 488 00:26:29.069 --> 00:26:32.890 identify his desire to gain anatomical knowledge through dissection as 489 00:26:32.930 --> 00:26:34.400 the motive for seeking bodies. 490 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:38.759 That's a crucial distinction. He was not the same as 491 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:40.660 the notorious murders, Burke and Hare. 492 00:26:43.569 --> 00:26:45.890 He was not the same as the notorious murders committed 493 00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:48.750 by Burke and Hare later in the same decade. They 494 00:26:48.829 --> 00:26:53.690 had started becoming murder for hire almost. They had run 495 00:26:53.730 --> 00:26:55.359 out of bodies that they could dig up and they 496 00:26:55.400 --> 00:27:00.240 just started moving it to the next

logical step, I suppose. 497 00:27:00.819 --> 00:27:02.779 Just give people a little helping hand. 498 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.839 Are we pushing the right direction for them to make money? Yeah. 499 00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:12.500 In Mary's case, this was a body taken from a 500 00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:17.630 grave after a natural death. The fact is, the motive 501 00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:21.450 was still for medical study. But although it was a 502 00:27:21.490 --> 00:27:25.789 very different way of doing it, it's still just as disturbing. 503 00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:28.559 I mean, it's not as disturbing as the murders, but 504 00:27:29.140 --> 00:27:32.849 the fact of the use of the body as an 505 00:27:33.029 --> 00:27:35.329 item at the end is still as disturbing to me. 506 00:27:38.029 --> 00:27:41.630 Mary's body was just an object that was waiting to 507 00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:45.440 be claimed for some people. It wasn't a woman whose 508 00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:49.839 family had laid her to rest. It was something that 509 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:56.180 somebody was prepared to pay for. The surviving legal papers 510 00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.319 include declarations that were made during the investigation in December 511 00:27:59.339 --> 00:28:02.309 of 1822. They give us a glimpse of the alleged 512 00:28:02.470 --> 00:28:05.670 arrangements and the people who came under suspicion. But we 513 00:28:05.710 --> 00:28:07.470 need to be careful about what these documents tell us. 514 00:28:08.230 --> 00:28:11.549 A declaration record of what a person said in a 515 00:28:11.589 --> 00:28:18.210 legal setting isn't the same as evidence. It's an account 516 00:28:18.369 --> 00:28:22.440 given by a witness. It's not automatic proof that it's 517 00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:28.059 given to a jury. Jesus Christ, I can't speak here tonight. 518 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:34.400 James McNabb, who was the gravedigger that we spoke about 519 00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:37.630 briefly earlier, he was also questioned about the case. According 520 00:28:37.690 --> 00:28:40.490 to his declaration, John Forrest had approached him roughly two 521 00:28:40.529 --> 00:28:43.609 months earlier and asked him about obtaining bodies from the churchyard. 522 00:28:44.890 --> 00:28:47.500 He often described in the surviving account was four guineas 523 00:28:47.740 --> 00:28:51.980 for each body. That's an amount of money at the time, 524 00:28:52.259 --> 00:28:56.539 particularly for somebody earning a living through manual work. McNabb 525 00:28:56.579 --> 00:28:59.190 said he refused to have anything to do with this business. 526 00:29:01.130 --> 00:29:05.579 Another man questioned, Daniel Mitchell, a servant and changekeeper associated 527 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:09.059 with a local drinking establishment. And I've said this before, 528 00:29:09.819 --> 00:29:13.269 one of the most local drinking establishments to that area 529 00:29:13.829 --> 00:29:16.529 I am currently sat in.

I can put no proof 530 00:29:16.609 --> 00:29:20.849 on the matter, but given the timeframe, the settlement opened 531 00:29:20.890 --> 00:29:24.779 in 1733 and they were talking about 1822, Daniel Mitchell 532 00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:32.059 almost certainly drank in this establishment. Mitchell's declaration also described 533 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:35.410 an approach by Forrest. The amount discussed was reportedly three 534 00:29:35.569 --> 00:29:39.849 or four guineas for each body. Mitchell likewise said he refused. 535 00:29:41.829 --> 00:29:46.430 James Shields, a street sweeper, also appears in the wider 536 00:29:47.390 --> 00:29:52.150 papers relating to the investigation. Taken together, the declarations and 537 00:29:52.170 --> 00:29:56.069 the formal accusations suggested that the investigators believed a group 538 00:29:56.109 --> 00:29:59.450 of local men might have been recruited to obtain bodies 539 00:29:59.490 --> 00:30:01.650 from a church run, but these statements need to be 540 00:30:01.670 --> 00:30:02.549 treated with caution. 541 00:30:03.829 --> 00:30:04.950 The men were under suspicion. 542 00:30:04.970 --> 00:30:07.609 They each had reasons to explain their own actions in 543 00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:10.009 the best possible light. We shouldn't treat their accounts as 544 00:30:10.049 --> 00:30:14.559 if they were neutral eyewitnesses. We also shouldn't take into 545 00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:17.480 account that they had agreed a plan to remove bodies 546 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:20.509 from the church yard. What the papers do show is 547 00:30:20.529 --> 00:30:23.289 that Forrest was identified as a central figure in this 548 00:30:23.349 --> 00:30:29.000 alleged scheme. And then we get to Mary Stevenson. Mary 549 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:31.039 Stevenson died, and as I said, she was buried on 550 00:30:31.059 --> 00:30:34.619 the 19th of November 1822. And just a few days later, 551 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:40.500 the churchyard becomes a scene of a disturbing discovery. The 552 00:30:40.539 --> 00:30:43.779 formal accusation placed the alleged removal of Mary's body during 553 00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:46.480 the night of the 23rd of November in the early 554 00:30:46.529 --> 00:30:50.109 hours of the 24th, so midnight, one o'clock in the morning, 555 00:30:50.430 --> 00:30:53.690 23rd and 24th, which is only a few days after 556 00:30:53.730 --> 00:30:57.809 she's buried. At some point, the grave was found to 557 00:30:57.849 --> 00:31:01.019 have been disturbed. The earth had been settled, but there 558 00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.200 were signs that there was something wrong. Now, that was 559 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:06.680 a kind of account that I read, and I guess, 560 00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:09.920 to me, and correct me if you think this is wrong, 561 00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:14.450 It looks as if it has been re-dug, but filled in. 562 00:31:16.019 --> 00:31:21.859 So it hadn't been a gravedigger's final layer. Does that 563 00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:22.319 make sense? 564 00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:22.920 Yeah. 565 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.259 As I. 566 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:31.349 Say, there was something wrong about the scene. 567 00:31:32.890 --> 00:31:35.690 Fresh earth will obviously sink as it settles, but this 568 00:31:35.710 --> 00:31:39.700 was more than a question of uneven ground. The surviving 569 00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:43.109 declaration of James McNabb describes a rope protruding from the 570 00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:46.690 ground near the grave. When the grave was examined, the 571 00:31:46.730 --> 00:31:49.630 coffin had been broken open and Mary's body was gone. 572 00:31:49.650 --> 00:31:54.630 Her burial clothes, however, had been left inside the coffin. Now, 573 00:31:55.430 --> 00:31:58.539 think about that for a moment. Mary had been buried 574 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:01.099 by her family a couple of days later. The coffin 575 00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:03.279 had been placed in the ground, the grave filled in, 576 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:07.779 and the expectation is that her remains would stay there forever. Instead, 577 00:32:07.819 --> 00:32:11.380 someone had returned, redisturbed the grave, opened the coffin and 578 00:32:11.420 --> 00:32:12.299 taken her body away. 579 00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:17.589 Yeah, well, not forever. Until the church moved its remains 580 00:32:17.630 --> 00:32:18.309 into its crypt. 581 00:32:19.710 --> 00:32:22.630 Yes, but I suppose the expectation at that point would 582 00:32:22.670 --> 00:32:30.769 have been forever. I suppose so, yeah. Her clothes were 583 00:32:30.809 --> 00:32:33.119 left there, but the body that had been buried did not. 584 00:32:35.420 --> 00:32:37.859 The formal indictment alleges that Mary's courts have been carried 585 00:32:37.900 --> 00:32:41.589 away towards Edinburgh and have chased or by some other 586 00:32:41.630 --> 00:32:42.710 means unknown to the. 587 00:32:45.309 --> 00:32:46.609 People prosecuting. 588 00:32:48.069 --> 00:32:51.109 This gives us the direction that the authorities believe that 589 00:32:51.130 --> 00:32:54.650 the body had gone. It doesn't prove the precise route, 590 00:32:54.970 --> 00:32:58.230 the vehicle used or the final destination. These parts are conjecture, 591 00:32:58.430 --> 00:33:00.819 but given the fact that we know that Edinburgh was 592 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:06.049 the home of medical science, in the 1820s, we assume 593 00:33:06.849 --> 00:33:09.890 the body had been taken from the graveyard in Stirling 594 00:33:09.910 --> 00:33:12.130 by somebody who knew what they were doing and then 595 00:33:12.190 --> 00:33:14.890 sold it to one of the big universities in Edinburgh. 596 00:33:14.990 --> 00:33:19.200 And presumably Forrest was a medical student at Edinburgh. 597 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:21.180 Yes, he was indeed. As I. 598 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.660 Say, his father was a medical practitioner and he was studying. 599 00:33:25.789 -->

00:33:28.069 So the logical assumption was he would have been studying 600 00:33:28.089 --> 00:33:28.509 in Edinburgh. 601 00:33:28.529 --> 00:33:29.150 Yeah, absolutely. 602 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:34.349 And this is where the historical records leaves us with 603 00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:37.390 a mixture of evidence and unanswered questions. We know the 604 00:33:37.430 --> 00:33:41.170 grave was robbed. We know Mary's body was missing. We 605 00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:44.829 know the authorities investigated men connected to an alleged scheme 606 00:33:44.890 --> 00:33:48.230 to obtain bodies for dissection. But the surviving documents don't 607 00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:51.470 give us a complete independent verified account of every action 608 00:33:51.490 --> 00:33:55.609 that was taken that night. The investigation would identify Forrest, 609 00:33:55.970 --> 00:33:58.289 as you say, as the principal figure in this case. 610 00:33:59.220 --> 00:34:01.259 But by the time the proceedings reached court, he was 611 00:34:01.299 --> 00:34:05.619 no longer in Stirling. He had absconded. And I think 612 00:34:05.660 --> 00:34:07.200 that is the only time I've ever written the word 613 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:09.159 absconded down. Nice. 614 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:10.239 Thanks. 615 00:34:13.139 --> 00:34:17.400 And that would change the course of this case. Unfortunately, 616 00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:20.929 I don't have much more to say about Mary. And 617 00:34:20.949 --> 00:34:22.489 it's not something I like to do when it comes 618 00:34:22.530 --> 00:34:24.110 to a case that we discover on Twisted Bread. And 619 00:34:24.130 --> 00:34:28.949 I don't like to leave the victim behind. However, I 620 00:34:28.989 --> 00:34:33.090 take solace in the fact that her victimness wasn't. 621 00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:33.730 While she was alive. 622 00:34:33.750 --> 00:34:40.519 That gives you any kind of recompense from that. Her 623 00:34:40.619 --> 00:34:43.280 family were the sufferers at this point, which doesn't make 624 00:34:43.300 --> 00:34:43.940 it any better. 625 00:34:44.300 --> 00:34:48.039 But Mary wasn't. The case comes before the. 626 00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:50.199 Court in Stirling, which again, if we want to go 627 00:34:50.260 --> 00:34:52.590 out the front door down the hill there, it's still 628 00:34:52.610 --> 00:34:54.750 in the same place it would have been hundreds of 629 00:34:54.789 --> 00:35:00.320 years ago. On the 19th of April, 1823, the charge 630 00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:04.510 recorded in the surviving papers is violation of sepulchres. 631 00:35:05.510 --> 00:35:10.110 Sepulchres. Sepulchres, thank you. I knew you'd know that. Sepulchres. 632 00:35:10.690 --> 00:35:13.469 Yep. The charge recorded in the surviving papers was violation 633 00:35:13.489 --> 00:35:16.789 of sepulchres, a legal description of the alleged disturbance of 634 00:35:16.849 --> 00:35:20.489 graves and the removal of bodies. The names connected with 635 00:35:20.510 --> 00:35:24.349 the proceedings included John Forrest, James McNag, Daniel Mitchell. 636 00:35:24.849 --> 00:35:27.250 Shields appears in the wider papers. 637 00:35:27.929 --> 00:35:31.570 But there's a problem. As they say, Forrest has absconded. 638 00:35:32.309 --> 00:35:35.469 He's nowhere to be found. The records describe him as 639 00:35:36.250 --> 00:35:40.030 becoming a fugitive. He was outlawed and put to the horn, 640 00:35:40.050 --> 00:35:43.469 which is a formal legal procedure used against someone who 641 00:35:43.530 --> 00:35:47.969 fails to appear when required. Later accounts have suggested that 642 00:35:48.050 --> 00:35:51.670 Forrest fled to Paris or elsewhere in continental Europe, but 643 00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:56.260 the exact destination we are not certain. What we do 644 00:35:56.300 --> 00:35:58.840 know is that he was absent from the proceedings. That 645 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.880 absence has serious consequences for the remaining case. On the 646 00:36:03.059 --> 00:36:06.199 19th of April 1823, the prosecution moved to abandon proceedings 647 00:36:06.260 --> 00:36:09.329 against McNabb and Mitchell. The reason recorded on the court 648 00:36:09.369 --> 00:36:11.750 papers was that Forrest was regarded as a principal figure 649 00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:13.989 while the others were considered agents. 650 00:36:16.010 --> 00:36:19.150 The proceedings were deserted on the advocate's motion. 651 00:36:20.530 --> 00:36:22.659 In other words, the case against McNabb and Mitchell did 652 00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:24.920 not conclude under the conventional trial and verdict. 653 00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:26.219 Were left aside. 654 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:29.280 The legal proceedings were abandoned rather than completed with a 655 00:36:29.340 --> 00:36:32.989 finding of guilty or innocent, and that distinction matters. The 656 00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:35.550 men had been implicated in the case, but we cannot 657 00:36:35.590 --> 00:36:40.530 describe them as being convicted of Mary's grave robbery. Forrest, however, 658 00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:46.739 remains absent and outlawed. It might be on other occasions 659 00:36:46.780 --> 00:36:49.099 that we would assume that this story is over, the 660 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.440 body is gone, the main figure has fled, and the 661 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.289 proceedings against the men who remained had been abandoned. but 662 00:36:55.309 --> 00:36:59.739 this story does not end here. In 1824, a petition 663 00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:03.599 was submitted on Forrest's behalf, seeking remission for the consequences 664 00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:07.619 of his fugitation. The case for leniency included his youth, 665 00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:12.159 his family background, and his prospects in medicine. Character references 666 00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:16.170 were also provided in support of the petition. In June 667 00:37:16.190 --> 00:37:22.550 of 1824, this petition was granted.

John Forrest receives a 668 00:37:22.650 --> 00:37:27.909 free pardon. Now, it's quite important to be precise about 669 00:37:27.949 --> 00:37:30.329 what that means. A pardon is not the same as 670 00:37:30.389 --> 00:37:33.550 a jury finding you innocent after hearing all of the evidence. 671 00:37:34.909 --> 00:37:38.889 Forrest had not stood trial in his absence and been acquitted. 672 00:37:39.510 --> 00:37:43.980 The pardon was the legal consequences associated with his outlawry. 673 00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:48.380 It did not make the historical allegations disappear, but it 674 00:37:48.460 --> 00:37:51.739 did allow him to continue his life and career without 675 00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:55.679 those consequences hanging over him. And that's where, as if 676 00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:58.920 it's not enough twists that we have already, where the 677 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:04.820 story takes another turn. John Forrest, with his pardon, continues 678 00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:09.150 his medical education. In 1825, he completes his medical degree 679 00:38:09.170 --> 00:38:11.750 at the University of Edinburgh and went on to establish 680 00:38:11.809 --> 00:38:15.789 a successful career as a surgeon and physician. His professional 681 00:38:15.829 --> 00:38:19.409 life eventually took him far beyond Stirling. He served in 682 00:38:19.429 --> 00:38:23.510 the British military. including during campaigns overseas, and he became 683 00:38:23.550 --> 00:38:27.170 a respected figure in the medical service in the British military. 684 00:38:28.590 --> 00:38:34.170 In 1859, he was appointed physician to Queen Victoria. Now 685 00:38:34.190 --> 00:38:37.769 think about that for a moment. In 1822, Forrest was 686 00:38:37.829 --> 00:38:40.650 implicated in the removal of Wooden's body from a graveyard 687 00:38:40.690 --> 00:38:41.570 just up the road from here. 688 00:38:42.269 --> 00:38:46.090 He fucked all, was outlawed, and was given a power. 689 00:38:46.690 --> 00:38:49.489 A few years after that, he becomes a doctor, and 690 00:38:49.510 --> 00:38:52.340 a couple of decades later, He's serving the reigning monarch. 691 00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:58.139 It's quite a trajectory from somebody who was nicking bodies 692 00:38:58.179 --> 00:38:58.880 for a field. 693 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:00.099 Up the road. Yeah. 694 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:03.380 It's tempting to tell this as a neat wee story 695 00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:05.380 about a clever man who escaped justice and went on 696 00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:06.199 to become a success. 697 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:09.900 But in reality, it's much more complicated than that. Forrest's 698 00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:10.940 later achievements do. 699 00:39:10.900 --> 00:39:14.440 Not establish what happened to Mary in that graveyard, nor 700 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.079 do they prove the allegations against him or that they 701 00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:21.010 were false. The surviving records identify him as the principal 702 00:39:21.050 --> 00:39:24.550 figure in the case. Records records his absence and his 703 00:39:24.610 --> 00:39:28.690 outlawry and then his later petition for remission. His medical 704 00:39:28.869 --> 00:39:32.099 career is a separate quite astonishing part of this story 705 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:38.010 but we should resist the temptation to invent what could 706 00:39:38.050 --> 00:39:41.449 have happened in that time period or to claim that 707 00:39:41.510 --> 00:39:45.769 he is a success the documented facts are quite striking 708 00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:50.599 A young medical student becomes impregnated in a grave robbery, 709 00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:55.400 fucks off and becomes one of the most successful medics 710 00:39:55.539 --> 00:39:59.769 of his time. There is, of course, the woman whose 711 00:39:59.809 --> 00:40:01.590 body was at the centre of this case. It had 712 00:40:01.610 --> 00:40:04.210 been largely remembered because of what happened to her after 713 00:40:04.250 --> 00:40:09.849 her death, Mary Stevenson. The question remains, not just what 714 00:40:09.889 --> 00:40:15.719 happened to John Forrest, but what happened to Mary? Formal 715 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:19.579 accusations say Mary's body was carried towards Edinburgh. It doesn't 716 00:40:19.780 --> 00:40:23.139 establish where the body ended up. We don't have a 717 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:26.199 confirmed account of its final destination. We cannot say with 718 00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:29.050 certainty whether it was dissected at a particular school or 719 00:40:29.070 --> 00:40:31.610 whether it passed through several hands or whether the remains 720 00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:36.070 were ever recovered. These are all possibilities. We have no 721 00:40:36.110 --> 00:40:39.369 established facts. And it's frustrating because at this point in 722 00:40:39.389 --> 00:40:42.150 the story, I kind of want a definitive answer. I 723 00:40:42.190 --> 00:40:43.429 always want a definitive answer. 724 00:40:43.469 --> 00:40:43.929 You know that. 725 00:40:44.349 --> 00:40:44.489 Yeah. 726 00:40:44.900 --> 00:40:47.320 It's also quite frustrating to me that I'd want to 727 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:49.449 know what happened to Mary, not what happened to him. 728 00:40:49.489 --> 00:40:51.650 His story in itself is quite incredible. 729 00:40:52.070 --> 00:40:55.289 If he did go from grave robber to royal physician, 730 00:40:56.989 --> 00:40:59.150 that in itself is a story that we would probably tell. 731 00:41:00.409 --> 00:41:00.590 Yeah. 732 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:05.079 But we would probably tell it without mentioning a woman's name. 733 00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:09.360 The problem is we know her name. I want to 734 00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.480 know what happened to her body, where it was taken to, 735 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:16.840 what happened to it. whether Mary was ever given a 736 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.440 second burial. But the surviving material that we have does

737 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:24.360 not provide any of those answers. The case recorded just 738 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:29.579 gives the formal actualisation, the declarations and the later legal proceedings. 739 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:31.980 It doesn't give us a complete account of the body's fate. 740 00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:35.559 And that, to me, will grind me for a while. 741 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:39.719 The other thing that I would like to say that 742 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.110 I haven't actually put in my notes here is. 743 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:42.099 The. 744 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:48.400 Records that I can find, certainly if it may be 745 00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:51.429 possible that I have missed something, don't know where in 746 00:41:51.449 --> 00:41:55.650 the graveyard it happened. Can't find any record of where 747 00:41:55.690 --> 00:41:59.269 Mary Stephens' body actually lay. Like, you can't, you and 748 00:41:59.309 --> 00:42:07.420 I couldn't walk to her grave. 749 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:14.360 No. I, I have, I have a few books on 750 00:42:14.420 --> 00:42:15.099 sterling crime. 751 00:42:15.820 --> 00:42:18.489 Yes. I believe I gave you that one. 752 00:42:18.969 --> 00:42:20.809 I think you did, yes. And this case of grave 753 00:42:20.849 --> 00:42:22.750 robbing is actually in it, and it was very difficult 754 00:42:22.769 --> 00:42:24.579 for me not to read it. 755 00:42:25.690 --> 00:42:26.389 I bet, yeah, yeah. 756 00:42:26.429 --> 00:42:29.610 Before having you tell this story. But there is a 757 00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.099 small picture, which I will put up to the camera, 758 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:36.460 but probably. 759 00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:39.929 But you can take a picture of and send to me, 760 00:42:39.940 --> 00:42:41.530 and I'll put it on Facebook and stuff, yeah? 761 00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:47.190 Absolutely. And that is the grave of Mary Witherspoon in 762 00:42:47.230 --> 00:42:49.650 the Old Town Cemetery in Stirling. 763 00:42:50.769 --> 00:42:52.409 Right, in the plot that would have been bought by 764 00:42:52.429 --> 00:42:54.269 James Livingston, her brother-in-law. 765 00:42:54.550 --> 00:42:55.530 Yes. 766 00:42:55.550 --> 00:42:57.409 Possibly I've just missed it because I've maybe looked for 767 00:42:57.429 --> 00:42:59.889 Mary Stevenson rather than maybe Mary Witherspoon. 768 00:43:00.030 --> 00:43:00.929 You could be correct there. 769 00:43:01.289 --> 00:43:03.570 Yeah. 770 00:43:05.829 --> 00:43:07.849 That given, I don't think that takes away from the 771 00:43:07.889 --> 00:43:12.119 fact that John Forrest is often seen as the principal 772 00:43:12.159 --> 00:43:14.539 figure in this case, no matter how you read it. 773 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:16.860 And it's not something that we do often, that we 774 00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:21.260 look at the perpetrator as the main figure. It also 775 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:22.590 doesn't take away from the fact that we have no 776 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:25.070 idea where Mary's final resting place is. 777 00:43:25.889 --> 00:43:27.710 No. And that's the bit that probably bothers me the most. 778 00:43:28.489 --> 00:43:33.610 No. I think there's two possibilities, neither of which... Sorry. 779 00:43:36.869 --> 00:43:39.829 I think there's two possibilities, neither of which give her 780 00:43:40.269 --> 00:43:42.929 eternal peace. Either her body made it to Edinburgh. 781 00:43:43.969 --> 00:43:44.110 Yep. 782 00:43:45.349 --> 00:43:50.929 Was used in an anatomical dissection, in which case they 783 00:43:50.969 --> 00:43:52.570 tend to be disposed of afterwards. 784 00:43:53.610 --> 00:43:53.869 Yes. 785 00:43:55.050 --> 00:44:00.400 Or if the grave robbery was discovered quick enough and 786 00:44:00.659 --> 00:44:04.179 news of it travelled faster than her body was travelling 787 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:10.099 to Edinburgh, it might have been dumped because the crime 788 00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:10.860 had been discovered. 789 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.010 Yes. Absolutely. 790 00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:17.219 There's a huge possibility in this case, yeah. Because it 791 00:44:17.500 --> 00:44:20.260 was quite quick. Everything happened obviously quite quickly because you 792 00:44:20.300 --> 00:44:23.440 need to get that body fresh to get it for dissection. 793 00:44:23.460 --> 00:44:25.840 Otherwise it's worthless. So yeah, you're right. 794 00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:28.119 It could have just been too quick for anything to 795 00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:33.030 have been documented about that. It, to me, is still 796 00:44:33.389 --> 00:44:35.849 one of the most unsettling parts that we can't say 797 00:44:35.889 --> 00:44:38.929 where she is. Mary was not a famous person. She 798 00:44:38.949 --> 00:44:42.030 wasn't a public figure. who was recorded in any great 799 00:44:42.050 --> 00:44:43.789 detail at all. She was just a normal woman living 800 00:44:43.829 --> 00:44:47.070 in Stirling, a widow whose family had arranged her burial. 801 00:44:47.650 --> 00:44:50.030 We know some basic facts about her life, but very 802 00:44:50.090 --> 00:44:52.590 little about her personality, her daily routine, or what she 803 00:44:52.630 --> 00:44:55.210 meant to the people around her. And the problem with me, 804 00:44:55.730 --> 00:45:00.010 to me, is the crime becomes her story. Behind the 805 00:45:00.050 --> 00:45:02.929 legal papers and all the nonsense is a woman whose 806 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:07.559 body was allegedly taken because it was worth something. And 807 00:45:07.579 --> 00:45:12.650 that brings us to the wider history of resurrectionists. Mary 808 00:45:12.730 --> 00:45:16.510 Stevenson's case took place 10 years before the Anatomy Act 809 00:45:16.550 --> 00:45:21.050 of 1832. That legislation changed the legal framework for anatomical 810 00:45:21.090 --> 00:45:24.940 study in Britain. It allowed licensed practitioners and institutions to 811 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:29.679 obtain

certain unclaimed bodies under regulated conditions and introduced a 812 00:45:29.699 --> 00:45:31.219 more formal system for the. 813 00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:32.420 Bodies for dissection. 814 00:45:33.380 --> 00:45:36.650 The aim was to address the shortage, as we said earlier, 815 00:45:36.909 --> 00:45:42.510 of bodies legally gathered for medical teaching and... to me, 816 00:45:42.690 --> 00:45:47.119 quite poignantly, to reduce the crimes associated with obtaining them. 817 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:52.900 The Act itself, as passed in 1832, helped bring the 818 00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:57.639 resurrectionist trade into decline. It didn't immediately end it, of course, 819 00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:00.849 because there was still money to be made. But it 820 00:46:00.929 --> 00:46:03.150 also brought the ethical questions about the treatment of the 821 00:46:03.309 --> 00:46:06.110 poor and those bodies who could be used for dissection 822 00:46:06.130 --> 00:46:10.719 after death. The history of anatomy is more than complicated. 823 00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:16.510 Medical knowledge and advancement through dissection of human bodies helped 824 00:46:16.570 --> 00:46:19.110 doctors understand disease, injury and the workings of the human 825 00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:22.510 bodies in ways that books alone could never achieve. But 826 00:46:22.530 --> 00:46:25.309 the shortage of legal cadavers created a market that relied 827 00:46:25.349 --> 00:46:29.110 on bodies being taken without consent. And that led to 828 00:46:29.329 --> 00:46:31.829 families fearing for their loved ones who may be stolen 829 00:46:31.889 --> 00:46:35.949 from their graves. And resurrectionists made very good money from 830 00:46:35.989 --> 00:46:39.400 that fear and the demand for bodies. After the law 831 00:46:39.500 --> 00:46:42.340 eventually changed, it couldn't undo what had already happened to 832 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:46.699 the people whose bodies taken. Mary's case sits within that uncomfortableness. 833 00:46:47.380 --> 00:46:52.400 A body was wanted for dissection. A scheme was allegedly 834 00:46:52.460 --> 00:46:54.960 formed to obtain it. A grave was opened and the 835 00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:57.719 legal proceedings that followed failed to provide a complete resolution. 836 00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:01.159 It would be easy to tell this is a quirky 837 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.300 tale about medical students and a missing corpse, but the 838 00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:06.280 story is much more serious than that. It asks us 839 00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:08.940 to consider what happens when the demands of scientific progress 840 00:47:09.019 --> 00:47:12.760 collide with the dignity of the human people. And what 841 00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:15.880 happens to a person's body after it dies? Does it 842 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:18.059 become valuable to others in a way that neither the 843 00:47:18.099 --> 00:47:21.570 person nor the family had agreed to? The men implicated 844 00:47:21.590 --> 00:47:24.780 in this case had their own stories. Forrest went on, 845 00:47:24.889 --> 00:47:26.590 as we said, to become a successful musician. 846 00:47:27.769 --> 00:47:28.329 Use your words. 847 00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:31.610 Physician, so I go with physician because I can't say 848 00:47:31.630 --> 00:47:35.969 anything else apparently. Forrest, as we said, went on to 849 00:47:36.010 --> 00:47:39.750 become a successful physician and have an incredible career. And 850 00:47:39.789 --> 00:47:44.130 the resurrectionist trade eventually declined as the law changed. But 851 00:47:44.150 --> 00:47:46.469 Mary Stevenson remains at the centre of this story, as 852 00:47:46.530 --> 00:47:49.260 I want her to do so. Her grave was deserved, 853 00:47:49.489 --> 00:47:52.119 her body disappeared, and the surviving record does not tell 854 00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:54.840 us anything about her. So what do we actually know 855 00:47:54.860 --> 00:47:57.860 about the Stirling Grave Voters? In reality, not a lot. 856 00:47:58.380 --> 00:48:01.039 We know what I've told you, that a couple of 857 00:48:01.059 --> 00:48:02.760 men got away with it who had probably been taking 858 00:48:02.780 --> 00:48:06.719 part in... what happened on that evening. And John Forrest 859 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:09.300 went on to live an incredible life. 860 00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:13.579 You say he got on with it. 861 00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:15.480 Yes. 862 00:48:16.099 --> 00:48:20.630 I can give you one slight amendment. 863 00:48:22.309 --> 00:48:22.769 Please do. 864 00:48:24.349 --> 00:48:31.110 On the day that Daniel Mitchell and James McNabb were 865 00:48:31.150 --> 00:48:35.949 released from prison, A crowd. I'm reading directly from the 866 00:48:35.969 --> 00:48:38.429 book right now. This is the only thing you missed. 867 00:48:39.230 --> 00:48:42.750 A crowd consisting initially of mainly women and boys made 868 00:48:42.789 --> 00:48:46.699 their way to the home of James McNabb. They failed 869 00:48:46.820 --> 00:48:49.440 to break his door open with large rocks, so they 870 00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:52.760 turned their attention to the windows, shattering them to pieces. 871 00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:57.159 With stones raining through the open windows, McNabb, who was 872 00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:00.050 sitting by the fire, was hit repeatedly in the head. 873 00:49:01.329 --> 00:49:04.210 Luckily for McNabb, the police arrived and put a stop 874 00:49:04.250 --> 00:49:07.239 to the disturbance, and took him to the jail for safety. 875 00:49:08.900 --> 00:49:12.639 The crowd, however, were undeterred, and, now joined by many 876 00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:14.699 of the men in the town, made their way to 877 00:49:14.739 --> 00:49:18.110 the home of Daniel Mitchell in St John Street, where 878 00:49:18.130 --> 00:49:20.449 they managed to get hold of him despite the efforts 879 00:49:20.489 --> 00:49:24.570 of police. Mitchell was knocked down, kicked and beaten,

and 880 00:49:24.590 --> 00:49:26.860 it was reported that the clothes were torn from his 881 00:49:26.909 --> 00:49:29.510 back in the attack before he managed to get to 882 00:49:29.530 --> 00:49:32.340 a nearby house and lock the door. This did not 883 00:49:32.380 --> 00:49:34.860 stop the mob, however, who rushed at the door and 884 00:49:34.900 --> 00:49:39.230 demolished the windows, gaining entrance to the house. Mitchell, by 885 00:49:39.250 --> 00:49:41.210 this point, had escaped out of a door at the 886 00:49:41.230 --> 00:49:43.590 back of the house and made his way to another 887 00:49:43.630 --> 00:49:48.449 house in the same close. The sheriff, accompanied by Provost Thompson, 888 00:49:48.489 --> 00:49:52.670 arrived on the scene with Captain Jeffrey of the 77th Regiment. 889 00:49:53.610 --> 00:49:55.610 The sheriff and Provost got into the middle of the 890 00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:58.579 mob and managed to reason with them just in time, 891 00:49:58.900 --> 00:50:01.719 as they had, by this point, gotten hold of Mitchell again. 892 00:50:03.219 --> 00:50:05.280 The crowd were persuaded to give him over to the 893 00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:07.519 authorities in order that he could be lodged in prison. 894 00:50:08.539 --> 00:50:11.139 Many of the mob moved aside at this point, with 895 00:50:11.179 --> 00:50:13.690 the exception of a few men who were shouting that 896 00:50:13.710 --> 00:50:15.590 they would take the heart out of him and tear 897 00:50:15.610 --> 00:50:20.329 him to pieces. Finding that reasoning with this faction was hopeless, 898 00:50:20.690 --> 00:50:23.769 the provost and sheriff sent to the castle for a 899 00:50:23.809 --> 00:50:28.139 party of the 77th Regiment. On their arrival, Mitchell was 900 00:50:28.179 --> 00:50:31.340 taken into custody, but in the confusion that arose, blows 901 00:50:31.380 --> 00:50:35.550 were exchanged and some shouts, some shouts, And some shots 902 00:50:35.650 --> 00:50:38.650 were fired, with the soldiers having to present their bayonets 903 00:50:38.690 --> 00:50:40.690 to the people to keep them at bay. 904 00:50:42.329 --> 00:50:45.199 Well, thank you for that. Let's give full credit. What's 905 00:50:45.219 --> 00:50:46.579 the name of the book and the author? 906 00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:52.739 Murder and Crime in Stirling, Lynn Wilson. 907 00:50:54.579 --> 00:50:56.159 I hate the fact that the bit I missed out 908 00:50:56.219 --> 00:51:00.550 was in the book that I gave to you. That's 909 00:51:00.570 --> 00:51:02.030 why I couldn't find it, because I didn't have it. 910 00:51:02.690 --> 00:51:03.929 I suppose it doesn't take away from the fact that 911 00:51:03.969 --> 00:51:05.460 actually James Forrest got away with it. 912 00:51:05.909 --> 00:51:06.570 Almost got free, I know. 913 00:51:06.590 --> 00:51:08.219 James Forrest absolutely did get away with it. And I mean, 914 00:51:09.320 --> 00:51:13.039 Mitchell and McNabb got away with it as well. They 915 00:51:13.059 --> 00:51:14.380 just got a little bit of a kicking. 916 00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:19.360 Yeah. In a legal sense, they got off scot-free. 917 00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:23.590 Yeah, absolutely. But I think that does also show the 918 00:51:23.690 --> 00:51:28.150 depth and the level of public feeling against crimes of 919 00:51:28.190 --> 00:51:31.670 this nature. Because we've covered quite a few cases where 920 00:51:31.710 --> 00:51:36.510 mobs turn up. But very few cases where they actually 921 00:51:36.570 --> 00:51:37.769 kick the shit out of people. 922 00:51:39.130 --> 00:51:41.380 Yeah, you're right, actually, because you think of a being 923 00:51:41.449 --> 00:51:44.480 mob and the being being the. 924 00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:45.099 in the background. 925 00:51:45.260 --> 00:51:46.820 Yeah, rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble. 926 00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:49.280 Yeah, but these guys have gone, fuck it, let's get 927 00:51:49.300 --> 00:51:49.760 shit out of them. 928 00:51:50.260 --> 00:51:52.309 Yeah, until the actual army turned up. 929 00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:57.440 Again, not justice for Mary and her family, but something, 930 00:51:57.539 --> 00:52:02.010 shall we say. We're not condoning the violence, but probably 931 00:52:02.070 --> 00:52:06.829 better than getting away with it scot-free. you know what 932 00:52:06.849 --> 00:52:08.710 that's probably a better place to leave it than I 933 00:52:08.750 --> 00:52:10.110 was going to do I was just going to give 934 00:52:10.130 --> 00:52:11.730 you a quick surmise as I like to do at 935 00:52:11.769 --> 00:52:14.050 the end of it just you know again saying that 936 00:52:14.090 --> 00:52:16.840 I feel like Mary was the one that was hard 937 00:52:16.900 --> 00:52:19.059 done by in all of this and I find it 938 00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:24.739 incredible that somebody that had as we said had been 939 00:52:25.179 --> 00:52:28.840 hardened but not found innocent still went on to have 940 00:52:30.409 --> 00:52:35.340 you could say an illustrious career yeah that he should. 941 00:52:35.179 --> 00:52:40.030 Never have had absolutely well there you are I would 942 00:52:40.070 --> 00:52:40.650 like to leave it. 943 00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:45.250 With let's just think of Mary Stevenson and actually probably 944 00:52:45.289 --> 00:52:49.710 the without stretching it probably too much hundreds if not 945 00:52:49.849 --> 00:52:55.170 thousands of bodies that were dug up to provide knowledge 946 00:52:56.070 --> 00:52:58.210 that we probably still rely on today. 947 00:52:58.690 --> 00:53:01.110 Absolutely unnamed thousands. 948 00:53:02.300 --> 00:53:05.539 It's a really hard juxtaposition to think about. Without those bodies, 949 00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:09.000 you wouldn't have modern science and modern medical science moving 950 00:53:09.179 --> 00:53:11.239 on like it did in that time period, which was 951 00:53:11.840 --> 00:53:18.250 vast and fast. Let's go with both of them. But 952

00:53:18.329 --> 00:53:21.150 was it justified? That's the question there, isn't it? 953 00:53:22.590 --> 00:53:26.530 No. No. There you go. 954 00:53:26.710 --> 00:53:28.989 Do you want to help our modern science sign up 955 00:53:29.010 --> 00:53:29.800 to be an organ donor? 956 00:53:29.820 --> 00:53:33.739 No. That's an obvious out from this. 957 00:53:35.059 --> 00:53:36.980 They're not going to want our organs, Bob. 958 00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:40.079 No, that's true. I'm trying a pub right now. They 959 00:53:40.099 --> 00:53:40.739 do not want mine. 960 00:53:42.340 --> 00:53:45.989 This living shows what alcohol can do to a man. 961 00:53:46.010 --> 00:53:49.809 And they already know that. That's for sure. 962 00:53:50.429 --> 00:53:54.130 What I will do during the week when we don't 963 00:53:54.170 --> 00:53:57.250 have three or four storms back to back is I'll 964 00:53:57.289 --> 00:53:58.849 take a wander up to the graveyard and see if 965 00:53:58.889 --> 00:54:01.480 I can find... very well, The Schmooze Grave, and I'll 966 00:54:01.500 --> 00:54:03.860 take a photo of it and I'll send it to 967 00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:05.480 you and I'll stick it up on the social medias. 968 00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:09.320 And you can find us on all the different social medias, well, 969 00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:10.139 most of them anyway. 970 00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:13.050 Yep, Nick's going to give it to you. 971 00:54:14.269 --> 00:54:18.710 He's not going to give us anything. But yeah, just 972 00:54:18.730 --> 00:54:20.030 search for Twisted Brennan and you'll find us. 973 00:54:20.849 --> 00:54:23.170 Yep, smash that little button and hit that thumbs up 974 00:54:23.230 --> 00:54:23.570 as well. 975 00:54:25.710 --> 00:54:26.769 I enjoyed that, Alistair, tonight. 976 00:54:26.789 --> 00:54:29.889 I actually enjoyed that even more when there's something that 977 00:54:29.909 --> 00:54:31.289 both of us have to say on the same case. 978 00:54:31.869 --> 00:54:32.090 Yeah. 979 00:54:32.929 --> 00:54:34.599 We've not had one in a while where both of us. 980 00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.199 Knows a little bit about it, even though you stole 981 00:54:36.219 --> 00:54:37.639 yours directly from a book, but I'll let you off 982 00:54:37.659 --> 00:54:38.059 this evening. 983 00:54:38.619 --> 00:54:41.320 Well, I didn't, I didn't know. 984 00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:44.989 You didn't mean to. I know, I know, I know. 985 00:54:45.260 --> 00:54:48.449 I'm annoyed at myself for not including that, but I 986 00:54:48.489 --> 00:54:50.849 kind of stuck to Mary and James. 987 00:54:51.349 --> 00:54:52.090 Yeah. 988 00:54:52.409 --> 00:54:54.510 To tell their stories. And actually I should have had 989 00:54:54.550 --> 00:54:55.889 a bit about them in it. So thank you for 990 00:54:55.949 --> 00:54:56.289 doing that. 991 00:54:56.329 --> 00:54:56.949 That's very good. 992 00:54:57.550 --> 00:54:59.610 And actually, that book is great. I think I've covered 993 00:54:59.849 --> 00:55:02.110 three or four cases from that book in the past. 994 00:55:02.349 --> 00:55:03.349 Yeah, so have I. 995 00:55:04.030 --> 00:55:06.739 And we'll probably max it out at some point and 996 00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:08.559 then try and find other ones that she's written because 997 00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:09.639 she's a very, very good writer. 998 00:55:11.320 --> 00:55:14.579 Anything else from you this evening, Alison? 999 00:55:15.460 --> 00:55:20.179 No, that's it. Thank you for joining us, everybody. You 1000 00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:22.639 can hear us on Twisted Britain every couple of weeks now. 1001 00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:25.460 And on the alternative weeks, I'm still recording Hooked on 1002 00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:29.190 True Crime with Sarah. We've just done an excellent episode 1003 00:55:29.429 --> 00:55:30.349 on Ed Kemper. 1004 00:55:31.570 --> 00:55:37.530 Oh, I mean, that is the opposite of what we do. Yeah. 1005 00:55:37.590 --> 00:55:39.010 He talked about bad bastards. 1006 00:55:39.050 --> 00:55:41.050 He's right up there as one of the worst. 1007 00:55:42.309 --> 00:55:45.090 Yeah. 1008 00:55:45.409 --> 00:55:47.199 Well, thank you very much. I shall leave you as 1009 00:55:47.260 --> 00:55:48.940 I always do with a thank you. Love you. Bye. 1010 00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:51.119 And a thank you. Love you. Bye. 1011 00:56:21.019 --> 00:56:21.099 Bye. 1012 00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:21.369 Bye.