ABOUT THIS EPISODE

An 18-year-old woman abused from birth and a chronic con man collide to concoct the most evil pairing since Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo. Acting on a long-time fantasy, Michael Rafferty convinced Terri-Lynne McClintic to kidnap, rape and kill 8-year-old beautiful Victoria Stafford. The events that followed divided the community and changed the lives of an entire town. TAKING TORI: The True Story of Terri-Lynne McClintic and Michael Rafferty-Kelly Banaski
English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

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00:01:07you are now listening to True murder the most shocking killers in True Crime history and the authors that have written about them DC Dahmer The Night Stalker BTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and Infamous killers in True Crime history with your host journalist and author Dan zupansky
00:01:45good evening an 18 year old woman abuse from birth in a chronic conman Collide to concoct the most evil parents since Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo
00:01:57acting on a long time fantasy Michael Rafferty convinced terri-lynne mcclintic along with him to kidnap rape and kill 18 8 year old beautiful Victoria Stafford events that followed divided the community and change the lives of an entire town
00:02:16look for featuring this evening is taking Tori the true story of terri-lynne mcclintic and Michael Rafferty with my special guest journalist and author Kelly banasky welcome to the program and thank you very much for agreeing this interview Kelly banasky
00:02:32thank you for having me
00:02:34thank you very much and thank you for this book Incredible let's get right to who these people are. Because we have a lot to cover it's a incredible graphic book and Incredibly horrifying story let's start with one of the main characters terri-lynne mcclintic you say she was born in 1990 Woodstock Ontario teller ideas first a little bit about Woodstock in Ontario and sort of the environment at the terri-lynne mcclintic grew up and tell a little bit about her early life and where she whines up at an early age
00:03:17what stock is very community-oriented it's really small but I guess you would call it maybe they're rough side of tracks were what Terry Lynn was from
00:03:30she seems really never had much of a chance in that town because of the drug culture and the OxyContin pain pills area
00:03:43Terri Lynn's mother was an addict she went from couch to couch basically and it was a friend of hers that ended up adopting Terri Lynn when she was very small
00:04:02and she was also an addict so Terry Lynn was brought up in that culture where it was so prevalent that it was almost it just it was the norm for her to see pain pills on The Daily for them to be bought and sold every day by everyone she knew it was just that part of her life and part of the life of everybody in that area and have communicate and see it and moved around a bit from different areas in Woodstock put it and she always did family was always centered around the same thing
00:04:41he also talked about their occupations being exotic dancers and you say part-time prostitutes exactly and then despite that you know that
00:04:58Terri Lynn was adopted by Carol even though she was almost in the same kind of situation she was still adopted she was allowed to have Terry Lynn Chapel
00:05:11with them her other children she had trouble with the authorities over abuse and
00:05:19but still she was allowed to adopt Terri Lynn
00:05:24she had didn't have custody of her own two children and yet was awarded custody of Terry Lynn Wright
00:05:38four four time and as probably
00:05:42a lot of these people would experience it look like things were looking up and she met a man named Rob McClintock when she got her name decided to get married and and tried and they file for legal custody of Terry Lynn
00:05:57tell us about what happened with that relationship
00:06:03Rob was kind of the type where he saw the good in everybody really and although he was also from that area and familiar with the drug lifestyle there was something about Kara that he she just believed in and she truly did want to change her life but she was just too far too far addicted too far gone to where she couldn't even when she tried to get off the pain pills so she could
00:06:36I think she did straighten up long enough to get custody back of her daughter I believe and was working a regular job thing at store when she and Rob decided to try for custody of Terry Lynn and they were awarded custody after I think it was quite an extensive thing and I took and they were awarded custody and things were good for a while but motherhood is too much for her and she slipped back into heavy addiction and eventually came a point where Rob just had had enough and he left but Carol took Terry Lynn and would travel from home to home to home to home always go back to Ross because that was her stable point and he would try to provide for Terri Lynn
00:07:34a lot of time Carol would take the money and spend it on drugs or party it away but she continued to keep robbing her life because that's the only way she could ever straighten up for any amount of time the other weekend or month
00:07:54she just that motherhood was too much for her and soon after Terry Lynn was a toddler she began slipping back into addiction
00:08:08you talk about the life of Terry Lynn after that with this neglecting somebody mother a guardian preoccupied with her own problems and addictions and on lifestyle and soda terrilynn was victimized in what way was she victimized that this early age and then you talk about some of the trouble that she had lashing out at Carol her mother
00:08:36later on she was sexually abused by
00:08:43more than one person some family members and neighbors she never told her mother
00:08:50when she did tell him all about the family member it was dismissed as
00:08:56just part of life out there no one she didn't attempt to get her any help or anything like that she was severely neglected she there was many many nights when she was 18
00:09:13when she would have to ask neighbors for food for when she went still food from school
00:09:19but then you know her mom would go sober for a while and things we would turn up better and she would feel more
00:09:30like a normal girl that then it would all start over again and she got to the point where she has been abused by so many men
00:09:42not just a family member in the neighbors and then she would she had experiences with boys around age and she got to a point where she didn't want to interact with me at all
00:09:57and she see she thought out more girlfriends but then that that didn't work out for her either she found that she couldn't get along with with many people
00:10:10and she began to lash out at her mom's so she stayed out of school more and more she was known as a fighter she began to be so bold as hell just to keep men away from her and then eventually women as well and she just would have she would strike at it anyone really but her mom took the brunt of it on several occasions hospitalized this I'm feeding she gave her she threatened her with weapon
00:10:42and eventually Carol did call the police on her and more than once she went to juvenile detention and and jail for attacking her mother and other girls in the school
00:10:58you say she becomes a real tough young lady taking nothing from anyone and having crimes like robbery at knifepoint stabbed the man in the back she even attacked the police as well and so at a time she had a lengthy record at used attention and she attacked people to even in detention themselves so and there was some stuff that you include hear some writings that she included maybe maybe we can leave that or maybe we can talk about that some of the D correspondence she had with inmates that she
00:11:40bumped into in the in these institutions they can just talk about some of the things that were going around in her mind that she would correspond with other inmates what she did say some of those letters were brought out in trial as well because she expressed such a bloodlust where she just no bones about it describe the crimes that she hopes to commit Sunday and on specific people and then just anyone in general and she she felt she was headed seeds and she was very descriptive about the bone she would break and the Damage she would import on just anyone in general and see what she and the girl that she was writing to in the majority of these letters had him
00:12:33nicknames for theirselves they would gangster bitches and I can provide a of different things I can't recall them on now said that she prided herself and how mean she was and that she would hurt and kill anybody she had no problem with it
00:12:52I always thought it was the mechanism to just keep people away from her but she also start out
00:13:01problems in silence for pick some people that were not bothering her or she did several right
00:13:11robberies and attempted robberies and just she didn't it didn't matter to her even if she thought the person may not have anything to take whatever whatever they had to close up their back of the desired
00:13:25and yeah the letters been in any way for a new Juvenile Detention Center came back to haunt her for sure
00:13:35now let's talk about this Collision this fateful Unholy collision with Michael Rafferty you say was the youngest child his two brothers he was born October 29th 1980
00:13:50Annie Spencer part of his youth with his aunt and his uncle in the small village of Drayton outside Kitchener again in the southern Ontario area near Toronto
00:14:01I need even attended School briefly in a suburb of Toronto Richmond Hill
00:14:08talk about a little bit about some of the things that he studied at college cuz there isn't much about his local I mean his early life but his local College stent and what he did there and a little bit about his success or non success in his life and his career
00:14:28Michael is a strange person heat childhood stars kids those things
00:14:43afraid she had some setbacks but nothing that was you would consider neglect or abuse or in all file right to should have been a normal person but she even from a young age stored up was
00:15:00unusual in that he
00:15:03it is very narcissistic everything was about him and well that's no par for the course with the say toddlers he he never got out of that stage everything was about him and he was very intelligent he spent a few when he did not graduate but he did a stint in college
00:15:26and he studied a variety of things actually he did some psychology and was not that he got passing grades did some of auto body repair classes he did some journalism classes he did some Medical classes and some botany classes he seem to be trying to find his his his interest and while he did not really Excel anywhere he he didn't tell out he could have made quite a difference have you chose other path
00:16:08you talk about some of his behaviors while you say narcissistic but he was sponging for lack of better word off of as many women as he possibly could getting whatever he possibly could drugs money and a place to stay and that was his style and then you talk about
00:16:26the small place but tore up part of me Terry Lynn and Michael Rafferty meeting how do they meet and how to their relationship quickly proceed
00:16:39they meet at a pizza place and she's waiting in line behind him and he makes a comment about how pretty she is or something along those lines and I start talking and he writes his number on a pizza box and she goes home and call them and they spent
00:16:59the rest of time together from that moment on they were always together
00:17:04and they seem to be
00:17:08they matched up pretty well if which is surprising because of Terri Lynn's attitude she really wasn't
00:17:17she wasn't after a boyfriend or anything like that but it was his attitude of he stated he had no worries no trouble than that appeal to her he didn't really pressure her for anything right off the bat he gave her the impression that you know she could be like if it had no worries he live wherever he wanted to do and he didn't have to work he he found money here in there and keep with escape and money and
00:17:51immediately she she felt
00:17:55I need for that cuz it was so opposed to the life that she has lived her entire life she didn't know anything other
00:18:03so they began basically living together at everyone else's house they would crash air crash there he stayed with her at Carol's something they would get motel rooms and stay together and begin using Oxycontin together
00:18:23and that was really the beginning of the end
00:18:27you said first she was his connection and so
00:18:33this kind of thing was going on and they were just a perfect match because of the things that they had in common
00:18:41as well as other things as well but this was one of the main things in their life obviously you say that he's injecting to 80 mg oxycontin's daily and as many Percocets is he could find and so Terri Lynn's growing loyalty and Roxy dog connection
00:19:01eventually make Michael realized it Terry Lynn should be his one and only and so then they're Inseparable and some of the things you talked about him going on these drives and he starts talking about you talk about sex drive and you say that Terry Lynn really that's not what it's starting off to be but what are they talking about when they're going on these drives in from the very beginning what is he start talking about
00:19:30to the area that Terry Lynn had been here and there and everywhere with Carol and she knew everyone that sold everything so that right off the bat interested him and that's why he kept coming around till they became closer and closer she could she could buy drugs anywhere any kind of drugs from anybody
00:19:50and he liked it and then like it you know their sex life became more of
00:19:58more of that important thing to both of them other than the drugs
00:20:04and he did realize that whatever he told her to do she would do it
00:20:11I think this came on slowly because of
00:20:15him being the only person that had ever stayed around her for any length of time and to give her as as much as as she was giving him she never had any sort of sexual relationship that didn't end with a punch in the face so find somebody to have sex with where it was
00:20:37it is beautiful as as they could and she could ever had it
00:20:43she was devoted she never she never had a relationship anything like that before in her life so then you know they would take these rides together
00:20:55usually trying to find somewhere to stay for the night or on a trip to buy drugs and they began to share Parts with their Pastor to each other personalities and their likes and dislikes
00:21:12and she began to tell her that he had a sexual attraction to young girls
00:21:22girls 10 and under pacifically
00:21:28to begin with she thought that it would he was trying to stalk her this is what she told me
00:21:36that he she felt that it was a game at first that he was trying to see if she would stick around if you know like he would say the most deplorable things he could come up with and she she took it as a test of you know how damn she was if she was really going to stick around for him by things became more serious actually asked her what would you do if I if I asked you this nuts that little girl right there
00:22:10and she would say what I would do it
00:22:13and here we go Joker and we'll do it then and she would laugh and they would get over it and a few days later he would ask her again
00:22:24if we say little girl when you when you Snapchat terrilynn would say yes I will
00:22:30so I can see what he has to say and let the moment go and then he became
00:22:3799 play serious about it actually in bed
00:22:41the day that he told her that it was something she had to do there was no more he wasn't going to ask for anymore
00:22:52and she said well we can't just snap some somebody off the street and that's when they started to actually come up with a plan how they would
00:23:01Hollywood do it
00:23:07you talk about the discus scenarios hypothetical
00:23:12situations and then the reactions ends
00:23:17an actual actual plans and you say part of this too is we haven't mentioned is that
00:23:24part of the reason they're together as well one thing they have in common is also is that he likes to choke women strangle women choke them and she doesn't mind that we're other women finally came to their senses and ran off can't believe it
00:23:44if I just somebody just gives you a little bit of love that's really what you're looking for he can't even believe what little he had to do to retain this woman so I was very impressed by that
00:23:56they talk about also that they make these plans
00:24:01well now let's meanwhile Segway to this little girl Victoria Elizabeth Marie Stafford
00:24:12and who she was and how she came to
00:24:17it's unbelievable this is 2009 that no matter where you are that people would be allowed to go to school on so let's talk about who she was and the kind of family she was in her mother and her stepfather because it's important who these people are in when this event goes down tell us a little bit about her living situation in the kind of girl that she really was and the family that really was that she lived with
00:24:49she said with her mom and stepdad abused or anything like that, said that they were in the sort of party culture and her mom said use Oxycontin and she was a customer of Carol and she had pot
00:25:20and that she had some trouble with them at the Ortiz she had been in and out of them jail for drug related thing
00:25:35and it was
00:25:39probably the worst mistake she ever made but she sent her little girl to school that day alone but the school wasn't far away and she did I actually watch her start showing me the way
00:25:53and then I was the last time
00:25:59you talk about the plans that this diabolical couple has and one of them is that they've gone this route before the guns similar routes near this school you talk about Victoria Stafford's school and they called her Tori
00:26:16on April 9th East 2009 tell us what this diabolical couple is up to and how they collide with Tori Stafford
00:26:29they were riding around looking for a victim it was the day I believe that perhaps I've been out one day before that and nothing had turned up but they they had Chris this route before and they went by while school with
00:26:48infection and she started Tori coming out Terri Lynn and Michael spotted her and she was exactly what he had in mind exactly what he's been looking for a he wanted a younger girl younger than 10 with blonde hair and their skin and Terri Lynn approached her and ask her about how can you find the dog wanted just to see her dog I think her dog was thought but she took her hand and walked with her straight out into the road and it's the car
00:27:24people that's been a lot of speculation on whether Terry Lynn knew who told me was when she saw her because of the connection with her her mother but she says that she did not know that she had never really seen Tori only her mom and she doesn't she claims that she did not know who toy was when she kidnapped ER
00:27:55you say that
00:27:57she finally a kept riding her before you're not going to do this you don't have what it takes to do this to Gold her terrilynn into doing this
00:28:08and I find it odd to and we'll discuss this after but that she had sent this inmate previously
00:28:19about her ideas of killing and her ideas and murdering heard ideas of destroying someone
00:28:25so at least this day
00:28:28seems reasonable that she would be susceptible unbelievably to this guys go Ding and challenging and challenging her to finally do this so Terry a Torre part of me was the first girl blonde nearest by herself that she could spot she talked to her about missing puppies and she knew the kind of puppies that she had or cheats asked if she could help identify this puppy or part part of me this mother who had puppies and would she like to look at the puppies and that's how the premise the rules that you got her to drive to the car let's use this just as an opportunity Kelly to stop for a second to talk about the sponsor of this program Blue Apron
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00:31:08tell Kelly we have
00:31:12little 8 year old Tori Stafford
00:31:15Sting's unsuspicious unsuspecting young girl trying to help a woman
00:31:23find the mother of these little puppies that she's going to the car to look at what happens with Michael Rafferty how does he respond and what does he do right away what does Terri Lynn do
00:31:37what happens
00:31:40since they get her in the car well soon as I get her to the car before she realizes what's happening they have her stuff in the back seat under a blanket under his jacket
00:31:54and I drive the route I think to a field it's a secluded place that wooded area with an open space
00:32:07Terri Lynn says that she gets out of the car and walks away
00:32:12she recalled
00:32:15Terry Torrey asking her
00:32:18if she will be okay and she tells her to just be brave
00:32:24and then she walks away and leaves her to Michael
00:32:27and stand outside the car about 3 4 feet away
00:32:34you talk about Michael Lafferty being very excited and I probably couldn't believe his luck that this was actually happening so he's in big hurry they u-rite that they drive to a drug house to pick up some Percocet to enhance the experience and then drive for quite a while
00:32:54but this girl must have been horrified obviously she's pleading for life as you write saying promising that you would not tell even giving a scenario of what she would say if it's if they did let her go skiing for life and she was told to shut up to sitting down on the floor board under the jacket like you say
00:33:16and then during this
00:33:19hours of rape how to feel like rape Terri Lynn put on the headphones and as you described in the book listen to something they did have in common this kind of death rap from a band called necro with lyrics about death and Satan
00:33:36and so she walked around the periphery of that field while he did the doctor Lee deed and then
00:33:43lung Yung Tory had to urinate so course he let her and Terry Lynn this forwarded her to the field to do that she saw the blood they talked to unbelievably about this bravery
00:33:58and Tori said that she saw Terry Lynn was Brave and she said no no no no no you are
00:34:04and let that screaming child back into the car with Michael Rafferty for Round 2 while again she preoccupied herself while this rape went on
00:34:18without giving too much details they had also prepared you say part of this plan was
00:34:26so tell us what they do
00:34:32after Michael Rafferty's finished with Tori
00:34:37well of course I had to kill her
00:34:41but Michael was unable to do it
00:34:46and Terri Lynn was the one who had to
00:34:51she hit her with us she covered her head with the jacket and hitter I think with the a tire iron
00:34:59yeah I can't remember now but when I'm about to call him when I spoke to Terry Lynn on the phone about this she her story changed somewhat from
00:35:14what she'd written and then what was said in court so I don't think we'll ever know exactly what what happened right there but she did take responsibility for the for the murder and she did say that she's the one that that killed her
00:35:36and the way that she explains it is that she was taking her pain away and
00:35:46setting her up. I was the most
00:35:50that's one of the hardest
00:35:53hardest thing I've ever written was with that area of that put
00:35:58it took a long time to get the words to just be
00:36:03it's cut and dried if I could get it without putting any sort of emotion in it at all
00:36:10it wasn't right
00:36:12no it's it's tough reading
00:36:17because he had said Michael Rafferty said the we can't take her back and
00:36:24Chicago back and he said you're involved with this he wanted her to be involved and he was very very you say ecstatic
00:36:33again we only have Terri Lynn's account of this but it seemed like he was a ecstatic
00:36:40yeah the way she explained that he couldn't he couldn't his pay was so excited his voice was was jittery
00:36:52the as you write they bury her under some rocks
00:36:58nearby
00:37:00I guess
00:37:03find a place that no one can see what they're doing and they barrier under some bunch of rocks or tiny body
00:37:10then they leave and they make a pack of all not to talk about this again and how are they able to are they able to carry on with their lives what happened afterwards and then tell us the right we will lose to in the in the introduction about the community response what goes on with missing Tori
00:37:37they were able to keep it quiet they just it's hideous as it sounds to everyone else they had planned it for so long Michael had thought of it for so long
00:37:48and while it did bother Terry when she was able to compartmentalize it and just go on with her life
00:37:56the world began to look for little Tori and the crazy part about all of it is a lot of d
00:38:05suspicion went to Tori's mother
00:38:09she had a reputation for doing drugs and people begin to suspect her as for doing something to her own daughter and she went through a lot of help her that she was on National Television she with them reporters the police was constantly bothering her but
00:38:33part of this incredible story is that there was video footage and that's what police do specially modern times as to look at that available video footage and what they find is a woman with dark hair bigger than than Tories mother Tara and has a big fluffy white coat until they start asking people about that and they also
00:39:00start receiving a Terra tell us about what happens with Tara And then a friend that shows Tara this photo they said that she shows Tories mother the the footage and she immediately recognized that coat she immediately from Sion drugs over there and she did say she did tell the police and they got off to a slow start no one really believe you're at first but then eventually it they start investigate Terri Lynn and everything unraveled shortly after that she was really I think Terry Lynn was ready to just
00:39:46call it quits what's one said everything dawned on her what she done and the pain that she knew that the territories mother was going through and and when she saw what she did to that small community I think she was ready to to be arrested she was ready to tell everything female go back to how this happens because what you say Tori
00:40:09apartment terrilynn
00:40:11is even
00:40:14cooperating not cooperating and involved with the handing out the missing posters for Tori this is a small community and and sold in those suspicions are conveyed to the police by more than one person that this might be Terri Lynn so
00:40:39what what is the final thing that police realize that she may be involved and then they bring her in for questioning and how does that proceed
00:40:52it's the jacket I mean once once they start recognizing who she is and they bring her in at first she doesn't come
00:41:01star she doesn't admit to anything doesn't take long at all and she tells that Michael would have been the one with her and why they did it and how they did it but
00:41:14it's the jacket that they notice that gets her caught
00:41:22now will you talk about these
00:41:26the motivation for her to come to actually confess and in that confession a lot of people would most perpetrators would deflect the blame from themselves and put it on the other person what is her story
00:41:41and what does she say in terms of her involvement in the planning her involvement in the
00:41:49the kidnapping itself what did she tell authorities at that time when she does decide to confess
00:41:57she takes us to blame on herself and she continue to do that even as her story changed in different ways but
00:42:06she said she takes the blame on yourself and she said she's the one that killed the little girl and it takes some Dragon to wear it till she actually comes forward with what with Michael's part in it she doesn't want to even implicate him much other than saying that you know he was the one that right there but she won't she takes her own she takes responsibility for the things that she does right off the bat
00:42:36now we in this for people listening in the US and abroad not all jurisdictions are like Canada in this
00:42:45not total immunity but there is quite a bit of a of a difference
00:42:51in both of these sentences in terms of what the prosecutor looks at the person that they seem to be focused on his Michael Rafferty and they listen and believe a certain amount of Terry Lynn story and understand her background and then are willing to offer her trials not much of a trowel at all because there is some kind of deal contingent on her testifying at Michael Rafferty's trial isn't it
00:43:23yes she is
00:43:28she did testify but
00:43:32she was just steadfast trying to impart on to everyone that she was the one that did the murder and I'm and I'm not sure why she she made that so clear so many times other than maybe she thought Michael wouldn't get as much time
00:43:50if she confessed to the cell The Killing and the kidnapping
00:43:57CM when I spoke to her about this book she was at first against it and asked me not to but I
00:44:07kept talking to her and she said the only way she would tell me anything was if I made sure to say that she did The Killing
00:44:18she was the one that took her life
00:44:23you also talk about that even though it was different seasons she was instrumental in helping the police find the body of Tori Stafford correct
00:44:36cracked she took them out there and help them look and yeah I think I changed quite a bit since they were up but she found her
00:44:49you talk about she apologized to Tori's family as well at the trial
00:44:54and on April 30th 2010 to sentenced to life in prison
00:44:59with the possibility of parole after 25 years knots are most serious sentencing in Canada
00:45:07but then it was the Rafferty's trial
00:45:10and they agreed to change the venue because Woodstock they thought they wouldn't be able to get a fair trial so they held it in London Ontario
00:45:20and a strict publication ban this was March 5th it was ready to go 2012
00:45:28tell us a little bit about the the trial and some of the behavior at the trial some of the
00:45:36more interesting events at that trout
00:45:41Michael West
00:45:44uncooperative to say to put it nicely
00:45:48he had a lot of outburst and some of the parents and the community attended the trial and there was a lot of death threats on his person there with all sorts of
00:46:04strep throat around by Michael by some of the police or to some of the police in the case
00:46:17he just continually tried to place the blame on someone else for something else it was always someone else's fault or or he could talk Terry linen to it because you know I always wanted some sort of
00:46:33way on to somebody else for some reason and tell him
00:46:39by the way when I was writing this book I tried to get ahold of him or his lawyers or anyone and I could get no one on on his side of the family or his side of the case
00:46:50can you speak to me at all but after the book was written I got some of his childhood friend emailed me and sent me postal letters about how I got it all wrong and she didn't say much of anything like that to Terry Lynn and it was all her and
00:47:10so I'm his his history of lies and
00:47:15population last it all the way through court and into incarceration
00:47:22you say it was guilty in all three counts the jury found him and that was accessory apartment that was first-degree murder kidnapping
00:47:34and I guess that would be sexual assault as well but anyway life without parole
00:47:41plus 10 years you say that was May 15th 2012
00:47:51now you talk about a PostScript about
00:47:55you said you spoke to her but
00:48:00she has been in trouble in prison as well since she's been in there hasn't she
00:48:06she hair she's giving
00:48:11she's been in several fight with other inmates to the point where I think the term was curb stomp
00:48:22she comes down Thursday for knocked out teeth
00:48:27she has been quite a pill
00:48:34do you believe everything that
00:48:39Terri Lynn has to say about her own involvement because of what I it always struck me as they originally when I read in the book that at trial that they produce these letters from inmates and then she had these very Vivid fantasies involved murder destroying someone I even abducting someone
00:49:00so when they meet then someone talks this man talks to her
00:49:05and why I think there's Credence to what I'm saying is that because she says well I first I just thought he was joking he was kidding where I was I didn't believe him or
00:49:16you know that doesn't sound so plausible to me that you would then believe would be you have these ideas your of your own
00:49:24you probably discussing that's what they had in common she says no no and then when he discussed these murderous things
00:49:32involving
00:49:34raping and killing a child she just thought he was kidding didn't believe I'm up to the right up to a certain point and then she again justifies as you write in the book she justifies that
00:49:46but why would she be the person that would murder this young girl if she didn't have murder in her heart ever now she admits for the courts because that was part of this this deal and she could see the light of day someday couldn't she have self-service information
00:50:08oh I'm sure most of it is and it was hard to believe her it hard to choose what what could possibly be true because you changed her story so many times to to fit the circumstances so it it was difficult to pick out which nuggets can possibly be believe but
00:50:29I think I don't think I do think that she she didn't believe Michael at first because I don't think she possibly I don't think she thought that anyone could possibly be as sick as she was and
00:50:45I just think that she was like really no I didn't I think that she thought he would be the one to take it out I didn't think because she was had so much for Vado and so much violence in her I don't think she got anybody could match it now what she has reticent to
00:51:05find a little girl and kidnap her and she said she was
00:51:10possibly but I don't think it was out of some Golden Heart think it was a fear of getting in trouble she thought she knew how easy it would be for her to get in trouble cuz he was known in the area and I think she just was them
00:51:27hesitant because she didn't really want to get in trouble now because she didn't want to commit the murder and then when it happened
00:51:36I think
00:51:38that is affected her so much more than she thought it would
00:51:43and that's why she went forward with the confession I think
00:51:50say you know I'm not in your head I don't know and after all those good talk big talk she did
00:51:58there's no way around it was that was bred into her as a little girl she she knew not much of anything else but that lifestyle
00:52:11but I think looking seeing that happened to the Satori I think it may have
00:52:17I'll take her a little bit
00:52:22you spoken to other inmates and other
00:52:26serious criminals in killers before so
00:52:30despite
00:52:33despite the other you know salt while she's in prison did you see a discernible difference in the person that committed this crime and the person that you spoke to in terms of her at least realization of what she had done and remorse did you sense that
00:52:54I did I really did her insistence that she didn't
00:53:01she didn't want me to write about her childhood because she was afraid it would make people feel sorry for her
00:53:09I don't need anybody since the I did this I deserve to be where I am I don't deserve anything less than to spend my life in here
00:53:19and so I feel like she does have remorse because so many you know criminals
00:53:27hardcore evil people don't even have that much anymore
00:53:32sexy does at least I think she realizes that what she's done
00:53:39you know what's what we didn't talk about then I just want to let the audience know that part of this part of the story that we kind of lost over is that there's some interesting stuff that happens where
00:53:53Terri Lynn is actually in jail while this Manhunt for these two people are especially looking for the woman cuz they know it's key to everything to looking from the woman for the video footage everything is cut her hair the neighbors notice some of the neighbors called videotaping because they are so suspicious know there's Tara has said to the police and then said listen people
00:54:23quit focusing on me it's the old go out there and look for this my daughter you know so the poor woman was hounded then it was The Stepfather was a was brought in for questioning with no with polygraph and she was submitted to a polygraph and then very interesting that she ran out after a couple questions because she thought they were accusatory so
00:54:45they were very lucky they were very lucky that Terry Lynn was arrested that they would that other people have come forward and said I think she's the person in this video tape
00:54:58and also just the idea that when she was questioned
00:55:04she didn't lawyer up she came clean and otherwise had no one would know the details of this certainly Michael Rafferty is not going to be speaking to anybody about what happened is he likely
00:55:26but that will never happen really made a big turnaround after this they were a lot of people would have fallen apart and went deeper into drug addiction but she changed her whole life became a dude she's wildly successful and clean and I'm proud of her have any bright spots whatsoever
00:55:53tell she helps other people bring their children into the world
00:55:59rank how beautiful is that
00:56:02yeah we didn't talk about to how big the story was in America this was featured on America's Most Wanted this was a big story this was a big story in Toronto cuz Woodstock's small place this was a big story her face was
00:56:19out there people knew the story didn't they
00:56:30everybody heard about it
00:56:33I told her that too she wasn't aware of that
00:56:38she wasn't paid
00:56:41103 days missing you say in the book
00:56:48well yeah and change that Community forever as you say
00:56:54it did that. You know it's also cleaned up a little bit in Spanish
00:57:00from what I hear that some of the neighborhoods has been revamped and cleaned up and the drug culture is slowly moving out to
00:57:11further areas
00:57:16that was interesting how much this drug was involved in this story you say with Tara And that commonality that's how small this community was where Tara was buying drugs from the mclintock's that is scary ironic and
00:57:35and let everybody really did know everyone and I was a good thing
00:57:44the thing
00:57:47and we didn't talk about to as you write in the book The testimony from her school teacher that described her that last day when she last left on the bell rang at 3:30 and
00:57:59first day that you was
00:58:02yeah and with a butterfly earring you know somewhere mom you know Kelly really captain
00:58:13heartbreaking details for those that will
00:58:18be interested in that this incredible
00:58:23poor I like the one people
00:58:28yeah yes I think a lot of people there
00:58:32they're not novices so but I guess the warning is as appropriate
00:58:38I want to thank you Kelly for coming on and talking about the story about prison reform I didn't know it was a little bit about the woman condemned. Com tell us a little bit about that please
00:58:58it's a Blog that I've had for about 15 years I interact a lot with the women on death row in the United States and I talked about
00:59:12see if you stay face and let him stay right things they tell me their cases and then I plug about other women accused of murder and major cases I have it periodically I deal with men on Death Row at sexy Richard Ramirez for a couple years before he died and Madison before he went crazy and I couldn't understand his letters anymore
00:59:40and sometimes I put that on the blog
00:59:44and I talked about I'm anti death penalty measured and how much better it would be if we had a prison system that wasn't perfect for profit
00:59:55interesting issues someone will be debating for a while I'm sure you do Facebook you have a Facebook page and Twitter tell us about people might want to contact you look about your other work you have another True Crime book Shirley Turner dr. Darrell where I speak to several death row inmates and
01:00:26discuss the cases with them
01:00:29and my website is Kelly been asked you. Call me and tells about my books and my speaking engagement
01:00:36and personal appearances
01:00:40you can also find me on Twitter I'm right like a mother and daughter Instagram Kelly
01:00:50sounds great I want to thank you very much for coming on talking about to take Corey thank you very much you have a great evening hope to talk to you again soon
01:01:01thanks good night good night good night
01:01:18hey it's Jamie Progressive number one number two employee leave a message hey Jamie I know it's been found out about your acapella group mad Harmony but you will bounce back I mean you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with the Name Your Price tool it should be you giving me the pep talk now get out there hit that high note and take Matt Harmony all the way to Nationals
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