Full Transcript for 26 - TruTragedy: The Fuel for Regulation and Enforcement

joining us here today. 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:36.319 Of course, I'm happy to be here. 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:43.680 So, Eric, uh to start off, can you talk to us about what happened and what spurred you and your family to action? 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:50.719 So, to give some context for our work, we lost our son Alex about seven years ago in December of 2019. 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:53.439 He was playing football at Recess with friends. 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:58.719 Uh, he was a first grader at Mark Day School, which is a private school in San Rafael, California. 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:03.680 So, for those of you who aren't familiar with the Bay Area, once you cross the Golden Gate Bridge, you get into Marin County. 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:05.759 Um, and San Rafael is part of Marin. 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:10.159 And what happened to Alex was he was playing football at recess with some friends. 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:14.080 There was a large gate uh that had been left open. 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:21.599 That gate was attached to a large fence that had been installed uh in response to the Sandy Hook tragedy. 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:26.960 So I'll get into it in a little bit later in the conversation about how pervasive these gates and fences are. 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.159 But basically the fence was adjacent to the playground. 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:39.840 The gate had been left open uh during the recess period, and the football kept rolling through the gate and out into um the outside of the school. 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:50.000 And so Alex, like any first grade kid, went to grab the football the first time, the second time, and then eventually said, I'm just gonna close the gate so the ball stopped rolling past us. 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:52.240 He went to close the gate. 00:03:53.199 --> 00:04:00.960 Um and when he went to close it, uh what happened is the gate became decoupled from the supporting fence. 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:08.319 And without getting into too many of the specifics, which I can later in the conversation, that gate quickly became detached from the fence. 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:12.159 Um, and at the risk of being too graphic, uh it fell onto Alex. 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.439 Uh, it fell onto him and hit him in the back of the head. 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.160 Uh, he was a 60-pound seven-year-old child. 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:28.800 And because the gate was so heavy, uh, it was 400 pounds, falling at the speed of gravity, it struck Alex in the back of the head, and he immediately went into cardiac arrest and died right there in the playgrub. 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:30.319 My gosh. 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:31.360 I mean, it's just awful. 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:44.720 As a parent myself, it's just awful to comprehend, especially somewhere where you think your kids are going and they're safe, especially if they put up a fence to stop the you know, mass shooting scenarios and stuff like that. 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:45.839 He goes to school. 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:54.160 I mean, just getting that call must have, on top of the shear traps, you must have been just so confusing about how this possibly could have happened. 00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:04.480 Yeah, one of the first things I remember saying to myself, and even when I got to the ER, because that they did their best to keep Alex alive. 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:09.680 And I didn't recognize the wisdom of this until later in the grieving process. 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.560 But when I arrived at the ER, you know, my wife was already there. 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:19.920 And I knew it had to be something horrific because the school just said, uh, you need to get up to the uh Mark Day. 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.240 Uh, we're not sure if Alex is alive. 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:25.759 You know, there was an accident um at the playground. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.040 And I remember walking into the ER, and it's just people bawling. 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:33.279 I saw nurses crying, doctors crying, and I could see they were trying to save his life. 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:42.160 Um, but at that moment in time, the head ER doctor said to me, he goes, I want to you to be assured that your son felt no pain. 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:51.839 The force of what hit him on the back of the head um immediately put him into cardiac risk and he didn't know what uh was coming. 00:05:52.560 --> 00:06:11.120 And so that was very confusing to me at that time um as to why the doctor was saying that, but I realized after I started to grieve and I and then I started to come through the grief cycle that he was telling me that to assure me that Alex did not feel any pain and the death was instantaneous, which it's a little ironic to say this. 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:24.720 I'm very grateful he told me this, because not only is there the pain of losing a child, but I'm sure as you can attest to, there's a pain as a parent of thinking your child suffered and A, you weren't there and there was nothing you could do to comfort him. 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:33.920 And so the reason I say that as part of the background is I just could not for the life of me understand how a child could die at recess. 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:45.360 Like to your point, we're all aware of the issues that face our society as it relates to school shootings, as is horrific as it is, we're aware those do happen and unfortunately they continue to happen. 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:49.199 But I couldn't figure out how could a kid die just playing at recess. 00:06:49.519 --> 00:07:04.240 And, you know, as we went through the process, and you know, obviously there was a police investigation into his death, etc., you know, we quickly came to realize how dangerous um this gate was that was installed at the school. 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:10.480 And to your point, you know, our own ignorance as parents, because we never even knew the gate existed. 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:18.399 And what I mean by that

is the gate was only intended to be opened at the beginning of school for a kid drop-off and at the end of the school for kid pickup. 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:23.279 And so whenever I dropped Alex off at Mark Day, the gate was always open. 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.480 I didn't think twice to see if there was a gate attached to the fence. 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:32.639 I just threw drew through the opening in the fence, like any parent shuttled Alex off to school, and then I went to work. 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:33.120 Yep. 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:41.759 Um, and so to your point, we were just shocked that a gate of this size and magnitude would be built adjacent to a playground. 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:42.959 You're totally right. 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:48.720 I mean, your mind is on so many things when you're taking your kid to school, you have no reason even to know that gate should be closed. 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:55.199 Probably even don't notice the gate beyond some initial email or something that goes that says we've done this. 00:07:55.439 --> 00:08:03.839 So the thought that, you know, there is this systematic blind spot, I guess, for the school and everybody with regard to the skate. 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.160 You would never think then that it would fall on somebody. 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:06.879 It's a school. 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:18.240 So, you know, but something I read and kind of, you know, preparing for our conversation today, I read that uh 48 other serious gate-related injuries and deaths occurred in California alone. 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:22.000 I'm not sure the time period for that, where it's a time period on that kind of thing. 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:23.759 It's a shocking statistic. 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:28.000 Yeah, so and again, this is part of the grief process. 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:34.799 Of course, when you go through something like Dane and I went through, your immediate reaction is, oh my God, I'm the only person who's suffered this. 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:35.279 Right? 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.279 You know, how can a child die at recess? 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:39.679 How does a child die from a fallen gate? 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:50.960 But unfortunately, like most things in our society, once you start to look into a particular issue, you realize you're not the only person who's lost a loved one from a fallen gate. 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:59.279 And so part of the genesis for us founding ReadySet Safe, and our mission is obviously broader than just um gate safety. 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:06.480 Um, you know, it basically goes back to what you said in the opening remarks about making sure environments where children uh learn and play are safe. 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:12.559 Just by a simple search of Google, we came across numerous deaths that have been reported in the public domain. 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:14.000 And there was no science to this. 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:18.240 This was literally parents typing in, you know, gate fatality, gate death. 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.240 And we quickly realized, you know, we were not the only people to have lost a loved one. 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:24.000 And it isn't all just children, right? 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.639 And I'll get into that a little bit later in the conversation because of the sheer size of these gates. 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:35.679 But um elderly people have died from gates when they went to close a residential gate from a party. 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:39.200 Um, people have died from falling gates at places of worship. 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:42.799 You know, there's a boy who died in Mucklet or Washington at a synagogue. 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:47.519 And so we quickly decided, like, well, we have to take action, right? 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:56.240 I mean, one of the ways we've decided to honor Alex is by integrating, you know, his death into our work and our just daily purpose in life. 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:09.360 And what we quickly realized is that these gates pose, I don't want to say an unknown risk to society, because people who install these gates are very aware of how heavy they are and how they can become decoupled from a fence. 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:26.960 But certainly a broader national awareness campaign was needed, not to make people fearful of gates, but just so that they can understand these gates need safety mechanisms put in place that have necessary false stock protection, that you'll never prevent the gate from becoming decoupled from a fence. 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:29.840 That's the proverbial the wheels came off the track. 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:34.320 Um, so you can't stop that, but you can stop a gate from falling to the ground. 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:43.840 And the one thing I always tell people is that, you know, right or wrong, it is a very simple fix and it is well known by the industry. 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.120 Um, and there is a way to put an end to these senseless deaths. 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:48.240 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:49.440 Thank God for that. 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:58.720 And I you know it's just so tragic that it takes such a tragedy to hold perhaps the industry sounds like accountable for some of that kind of thing. 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:04.720 Is that um you you mentioned a couple of times there, Eric, that you know, the people install this, they know the weight. 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:10.799 I mean, did you ever find out why not just proactively doing easy fix on these things without the need for legislation? 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:24.720 Yeah, so I what I come to realize, and I I'll start by saying I am incredibly fortunate, oh, Dana and I, not just me, um, to have the support of the American Fence Association and the industry guidance. 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:39.120 And that is very powerful because at the risk of drawing a bad analogy, you know, when parents advocate for change, if the message comes across as adversarial to the

participants in that industry, you can see people shut down. 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.919 This isn't the perfect analogy, but we've all seen parents lobby for gun reform. 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:46.960 And then the NRA buttons up and says, no, that's not the problem. 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:48.159 It's X, Y, and Z. 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:56.559 And so I've been our work, excuse me, not I, we've been blessed that the American Fence Association has had said, yes, this is a problem. 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.960 We want to help you advocate for this change because we know how to stop it. 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.440 And so we want to lock arms with you and your efforts. 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.440 So that means a lot to me at a personal effort. 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:07.600 Like to give you a couple of data points. 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:14.559 I was able to deliver a keynote address at the American Fence Association conference a couple of years ago in Oklahoma City. 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:19.200 They invite me every year to their fence tech conference where I talk about gate safety and the importance. 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:23.200 And so there's a very genuine effort by the industry to put a stop to these deaths. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:32.799 What really leads to it at the end of the day, and there's nothing nefarious behind this, I think this is just a reality that deals with an industry that's as large as the fencing association. 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:40.639 This isn't like a big box retailer where you either go to Best Buy Target or Walmart, and those are the three places people, you know, consume goods and services. 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:42.240 It's a very large industry. 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:43.519 It's very fragmented. 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:53.120 There's large fencing companies, there's meat-sized fencing companies, and there's just scandally local mom and pop shops that might be, you know, less than 10 employees and they build fences locally. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:13:06.480 And what you're trying to do across a society as large as ours, with all these different rules and regulations at a state level, federal level, et cetera, is to just ensure there's a basic set of standards that exist that everybody adheres to. 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:18.159 And those standards already inherently rely as part of the ASDM, which I'm sure you're familiar with as a body of technical experts who propose voluntary standards, but they're not necessarily required. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:24.559 So many people in the fencing industry are aware of these standards, ASDM 1184, ASTM F900. 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:44.879 It's just a matter of how do you make sure that as many participants as possible know the danger of these gates, which I assume most people do, and that just ensure that the product that they're um constructing, because this isn't like a product that's manufactured at a warehouse, it has to be done on site at the field. 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:50.799

So there's no central repository where you just call up and say 1-800 gates, please deliver my gate and the safety mechanism. 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:59.759 Just like any contractor who goes on site to do a home remodel, a fence professional comes on site, whether it's a commercial or residential location, and installs a gate. 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:11.279 And so those thousands of fence installers who are on the front line, just making sure that they're trained and up to speed on the latest ASTM standards is really the genesis of this work. 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:21.440 Because it's like anything else in life, you can have as many rules and regulations as you want, unless the people who are involved in this industry day-to-day and are the front line, it can only go so far. 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:23.120 That's a great point. 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:32.000 And uh, I guess, you know, I do want to talk about the Alex Gate Safety Act of 2025 in a moment here and the underdates to the upcoming building codes. 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:45.440 But what in your research has build have building officials or local government played with regard to these kind of fences and these standards prior to you know a government or a mandate? 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:48.480 Yeah, so it's like anything in life. 00:14:48.639 --> 00:15:09.919 If you just break down the process of installing a gate or a fence, and you just go to the basic building blocks of design of the gate, construction of the gate, um, and then actual installation, the way the building code comes into play here is once a gate gets to a certain, I should say a gate and a fence gets to a certain scope. 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:19.759 Generally speaking, let's call it seven feet, a permit, I don't want to say all 50 states, but most states is required so that a building inspector can sign off on the gate. 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:34.720 So when you think about a new gate installation, part of the work we try and do, and I don't want to say this is the easier part of the code enforcement, but it certainly is the most simplistic, is to say, hey, look, when you're installing a gate of a certain size and magnitude, it needs to follow these ASTM standards. 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.360 By following these ASTM standards, you inadvertently capture these safety mechanisms. 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:46.879 And that's fairly simple for a new installation because the code requires that uh you get a permit. 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:54.399 The permit's obviously followed with the building code officials, and then there's that second pair of eyes once the job is done to come on site and inspect. 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:59.519 So going forward, that's our hoax for new gates, is that no gate, and again, will we be perfect on this? 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:06.559 Of course not, but no gate that's ever built in the United States going forward, or candidly across the globe, because this is a global issue. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:11.200 And if

you were to Google falling gates in third world countries, it is a massive problem as well. 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.440 These gates will have these safety devices. 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:18.480 No different than when we decided as a society that cars will always have safety belts. 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.799 I'm sure if I went back in time, there would be a point where their car didn't have a seatbelt. 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.360 No new car rolls off the line without a seatbelt. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.120 Hopefully, no new gate that gets built doesn't have these safety devices. 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.639 Because the safety device is only a$25 to$50 uh part. 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.480 It's a very nebulous expense. 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.240 So then the question becomes, well, what do you do about all these existing gates? 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:43.919 Because you can imagine um these gates can have a shelf life of 5, 10, 15 years. 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.000 Some gates are used every day. 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:53.600 There are some gates that sit in these massive cattle ranches in Texas that get opened or closed maybe once, twice, three times a year. 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:57.360 So how do you bring those in scope for lack of a better term? 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:01.200 Do you retroactively um put these safety devices in? 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.840 Do you wait until the gate gets replaced, et cetera? 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.799 And so that's where you get into the nuances of code officials. 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:24.640 But I would say at its most basic level, the reason the code officials play such an important role, and the reason we started our advocacy work at a local level in San Rafael and then expounded into the um county is that there's already regulations that deal with fences and gates. 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.400 They just didn't go far enough to really specify these ASTM standards. 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.839 So it was very clear as to the set of guidelines people have to follow. 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:44.000 So once you've put that language into the code, once that code gets disseminated across the country, then for lack of a better term, a building official has a blueprint for what they need to look for on the gate installation. 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:52.400 Or potentially, if they look at a gate and have to decide, should there be a retroactive application of the code, you know, based on the size of it. 00:17:52.720 --> 00:18:10.319 Yeah, no, that's a great explanation because at the beginning, I guess when I initially asked the question, I was thinking, gosh, could could at least some of these 48 lives that have been lost have been have been saved or prevented these tragedies if the building code required a permit for shorter fences? 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:25.200 And it sounds like the answer to that generally probably is no, because unless they know to look for certain uh safety standards to prevent the toppling or the de decoupling and collapse of that gate, it may not have changed anything. 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:25.599 I don't know. 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:26.559 What do you think? 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:29.680 Yeah, it's like anything else in life. 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:34.799 Of course, I was searching for simplicity uh when we first started this work. 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:36.559 I thought this is such an easy ask. 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:40.319 You know, all I gotta do is make my case and voila, someone will wave their magic wand. 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:45.680 But you get into a couple of different nuances, which exist for a reason, but they're important. 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:52.480 You know, number one, a building official does not have um all-encompassing oversight of all construction. 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:58.960 So, as an example, you know, a permitting process for a residential build is fairly common. 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:08.480 But at a state-backed institution, so let's say a public school, they don't necessarily have to follow the same regulations, at least in California, as it relates to the permitting process. 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:18.319 So if I build a public school, the state of California funds it, it can be considered as permitted because the state agency just says, well, of course, we follow building code, we don't need an independent assessment. 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:25.039 So the Venn diagram isn't necessarily perfect of where building a code officials have um oversight. 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:37.039 In addition to your point, what also happens with these gates is at the end of the day, these are moving pieces of a very uh moving pieces of heavy iron. 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:42.000 You know, they're made out of steel and they're fabricated, you know, from raw earth minerals or raw earth materials. 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:52.720 And so you can put a safety device in place five, 10 years ago, and then no different than your car can need repairs, those gates have wear and tear over time. 00:19:52.880 --> 00:20:08.319 So the question becomes, is it good enough just to install the gate safety mechanisms, or do you actually have to have an ongoing inspection to make sure that that safety mechanism, just like you know, your brakes on your car get tested by a mechanic, should someone be coming out looking at that gate once every five years, once every two years? 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:20.400 Like, how do you ensure that after all that physical wear and tear of opening a gate, closing a gate, sometimes a car, as we've all been in a parking lot, a gate will back into a fence accidentally, maybe it hit the safety device and knocked it off its course. 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:27.440 That's very important because the gate that fell onto Alex, it didn't have all the necessary fate safety mechanisms, which is why he died. 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:32.079 But the one safety mechanism that had been installed for the gate had become

bent over time. 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:44.000 So what was designed to be a 90 degree stop post had been bent by repeated use over time and it turned into a 45 degree ramp, which is what led the gate to become decoupled from the fence. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:49.759 And so you really get into this world, and this has been probably the most enlightening part of the process to me. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:58.960 Once you talk to industry professionals, field practitioners, it's not as simple as saying, let's just go put this safety device in place and now we're all good. 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.039 Do you do it proactively, retroactively? 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:02.000 Do you inspect it? 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.400 Do you put these safety devices on all gates? 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.640 I mean, gates come in all shapes and sizes. 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:13.039 There's gates that are two to three thousand pounds that are built for industrial applications, you know, big yellow machinery. 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.640 Those gates have fallen on people. 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.160 That's the net uh data that you're talking about, those 48 students. 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.319 There's residential gates that have fallen on people. 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:32.480 There's some gates that are only two or three feet tall, which it's not my place to say um that those gates shouldn't have a safety device, but they pose a much smaller risk than these big industrial gates. 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.279 So you really have to be thoughtful of the scoping mechanism. 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.440 Because once it goes into code, it's in code. 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.640 And nobody intends to be dismissive of the code, as you can imagine. 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:41.119 Yeah. 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:47.920 I mean, our entire and for most of our listeners, our day-to-day is um not allowing people to be dismissive of code. 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.279 Well, code's ambiguous, so you don't know how to imply it. 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.440 You know, where do I start the measurement on the gate? 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:54.480 From the bottom, from the top? 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:55.759 How do you define width? 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.160 I mean, that's it's like any profession. 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:07.519 There's just a level of technical Expertise that's required when you promote these standards, and then more importantly, to make sure they're implemented correctly. 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:12.480 Because the biggest thing I learned going through the ICC process, not to jump ahead in the conversation. 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:15.920 If the code's ambiguous, you know, what good does this do out? 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:21.920 If you got a bunch of field practitioners who are like, I don't know what ASTM 1184 is, how do I get access to it? 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:28.000 What do you mean, you know, I got to weigh the gate to decide if it passes the requirements, et cetera?

00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:29.519 Like, how do I practically do this? 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:31.039 Just like anything else in life. 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.160 So Absolutely. 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.000 And it can take years to refine. 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:44.240 And that's true, usually, uh, either, you know, written comments and notes that say we don't understand how to apply this or it's disagreeable or further tragedies when you thought you would plug that hole. 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:50.000 The unintentional consequences, right, are very important to be as best you can to try and mitigate ahead of time. 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:57.519 To the point about the opening story here, uh, there was a law that just amended the California state uh housing laws, the beginners here. 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:13.759 I was honored to have written it, that sought to prevent another ghost ship fire, which you being the Bay Area, probably we call in Oakland, and by applying the housing standards, in other words, substandard building standards across all zones, because fires don't care what zone you're in, and you know, lack of ingress don't care about what zone you're in. 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:22.960 So it makes you think of like back in the day when, you know, some there were some tragedies where kids got stuck on bull drains, and then they passed federal legislation to require two bull drains. 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.000 Sounds very similar. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:37.839 So you guys, you know, through the the the tragedy your families had to endure, and I'm sure it continues to endure, uh, in 2025, uh the Alex Gate Safety Act was introduced as federal legislation. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:40.880 What does that act aim to do and where is it right now? 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:54.559 Yeah, so the genesis of that act, um, and I'm very fortunate again for you know the people who've come into my life after losing Alex, really started with Congressman Jared Huffman, who was the local congressman representative from Marin County. 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:56.799 And so we had a mutual connection. 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:04.319 Uh Rob Epstein, who was the city attorney in San Rafael, which was the first city to pass these uh revised safety standards of the building code. 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.480 And so he he introduced us to Jared. 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.000 And you can imagine he was very sympathetic to our cause. 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.599 He'd obviously heard about Alex and the tragedy at Mark Day School. 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:19.759 And he said, I want to do what I can at a national level because we presented him the same data we're talking about on this podcast. 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:22.160 Look, you know, this was not lightning in a bottle. 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:33.039 That 48, um, those 48 incidences that you've referred to earlier in the conversation, those come from a very detailed study that we had petitioned uh from California OSHA. 00:24:33.359

--> 00:24:40.079 So there's literally time, location, and a documented series of events um that showed you this was a problem that needed to be addressed. 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:51.599 And so uh Congressman Huffman, um, who was obviously a Democrat, along with Congressman John Curtis, introduced the legislation right before uh Trump was elected president. 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.039 Congressman Curtis, by the way, a Republican from Utah, that's right. 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:00.640 That's right. 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:02.079 Yeah, Arches National Park. 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:11.680 It was a different type of gate, but that was a national case where a swinging gate, and it's a little graphic, actually had blown through a car windshield and decapitated a woman or honeymoon. 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:13.599 Um and that was covered by the news. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:20.640 And so I don't know if it was the exact district that Congressman Curtis at the time uh was part of, but it certainly was in his home state. 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:32.400 And so they introduced legislation, and again, like any passing of the guard, uh, the Congress changed over, and then John Curtis then was elected to the Senate to uh replace Lee was Romney Seat. 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.440 So he's the junior Senate member of uh Utah now. 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:46.400 So then because Curtis had championed the bill uh in the Congress, he agreed to take it on within the Senate, and we were very fortunate because she's a big advocate, obviously, of child safety in the CPSC. 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.920 Senator Amy Klobuchar agreed to co-sponsor our bill on the Senate. 00:25:50.079 --> 00:26:02.000 And we got through um the committee vote earlier this year and to the point you made earlier, we're you know, waiting on a House floor vote, which the last thing I'm gonna do is uh predict the dynamics of Washington, D.C. 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:06.559 Uh, but we're hopeful that that could, you know, at least make its way to the Senate floor here in the short term. 00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.240 It sure seems like a no-brainer. 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:12.079 It's a no-brainer from my perspective, and of course I'm biased. 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:23.440 I will say um the mechanism in which you can enforce this regulation at a national level, that's where you get into, well, who's gonna have oversight of these gates? 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:29.279 Like, as you know, there's not a uniform building code at a national level that you then push down into all 50 states. 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:35.440 The ICC drafts model code, and then it's up to all 50 states to adopt those provisions. 00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:41.519 So you could get into a world where California has a different set of regulations and building code than say Nevada. 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:46.480 And so what we landed on is a point that you raised earlier, which is excellent. 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:57.039 The Virginia Graham Baker Act seemed like a model for do you go through the CPSC as a mechanism to have oversight of these gates where applicable and to serve as an advocacy platform? 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:04.880 And one thing I've told people is that for better or for worse, the CPSC actually has experience in this industry. 00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:16.160 And what I mean by that is if you go back to the early 2000s, I think it might have been October 2000, if I'm not mistaken, the CPSC launched a national program called Operation Safe Gate. 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:20.880 And that was a result of automatic gates that were killing children, not manual gates. 00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:22.160 So there's two types of gates. 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.640 There's a manual gate that you just basically roll uh parallel to a fence. 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.400 The analogy I tell people is think of it like that sliding closet door. 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:35.359 And we all know what happens when the wheels come off the track, the door, you know, comes unhinged. 00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.799 Same thing that happens with a gate for a manual cantilever gate. 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:42.720 And then you have an automatic gate, which is obviously powered um by a machine. 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:49.440 And so that is, you know, your airport parking garage when the gate lifts up after you attack, uh, attach your key fob. 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:56.319 And so those gates had actually been killing children back in the 2000 because kids were being caught in an entrapment in zone. 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:06.160 And no different than a garage sensor at a garage, if you didn't have a sensor to say, hey, there's an object in the way, stop the gate, they would keep going and it would crush kids and you know it was causing fatalities. 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:10.079 So the CPSC started this work, you know, 20 plus years ago. 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:13.519 Um, and this isn't a critique, it just didn't extend into manual gates. 00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:18.880 And I assume that was just a function of not being aware that manual gates were killing uh kids and people as well. 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:27.759 And so much of the work we're really doing with the CPSC, it's like anything else in life, we're really just building on standards that are already accepted by the industry. 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.200 That's the ASTM. 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:37.039 And then the effort by the CPSC previously with Operation Safegate, and we're just extending that into manual gates, is really the genesis of the bill. 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:54.799 And then to me, what's most important is not only the CPSC, you know, promulgating a standard or a rule, whatever the right term is, but there'll be a set of funds, or I should say, a campaign that is launched as part of the bill to just make people aware of these gates. 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:59.039 Because at the end of the day, you can have as many rules, regulations, building codes.

00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:04.319 If people don't know why they need to follow these rules and guidelines, you're only going to be so effective. 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:05.519 That's a great point. 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:19.759 I mean, the getting the bill passed into law is step one and make getting the campaign out there so people know, and also to encourage pressure on states to adopt these standards, uh, not amend them away. 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:26.319 California now does not allow localities to amend the building codes for a period of time in response to the Palisades fire that occurred. 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:35.119 So if it's adopted in California, which almost assuredly it would be, uh, that will trickle down to all 530-something other jurisdictions. 00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:42.640 And you can imagine as you go through this process, there's a lot of curveballs that are thrown at you that you would not have anticipated in terms of pushback. 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:50.480 And so the one thing I try and assure people when I do my advocacy, our goal here is not to create the gate police, to create a gotcha environment. 00:29:50.640 --> 00:30:00.480 And so I don't know if this is the right analogy, but we've all heard stories of lawyers going on to Google Earth looking for non-compliant, non-ADA compliant pools and then firing off a lawsuit. 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:01.839 That's not the intent of this. 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:16.720 All I care about, honestly, at the end of the day, is that whatever mechanism we use, CPSC, building codes, et cetera, is that people will see these gates in their daily lives and just ask the simple question does that have the necessary safety mechanism? 00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:28.960 Whether it's included in scope or not, because the one thing I've found that's powerful is when I tell people Alex's story, and then they just go out in their daily lives, they are shocked how many gates exist. 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:37.839 And when you think about the nature of the fencing industry, in many ways, it's an industry that people go to look for for security. 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.920 So you talk about school shootings. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.519 You know, what school doesn't think about how do we deal with the school shooter? 00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:48.000 The most natural response is to build a fence around a defined perimeter. 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:53.359 Think about some of those tragedies we've gone through uh as a country, like the nightclub shootings in Denver. 00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:58.559 People come to this industry, the fencing industry, to put up gates and fences to give them peace of mind. 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:03.200 That's just human nature, and that is not going to change no matter how many of these fatalities we uncover. 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.240 And that's a very natural response and it's a very necessary response. 00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:08.640 Residential, multifamily, et cetera. 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:18.319 And so all I want people to be aware of is once you make that decision to put in a fence or a gate, just make sure you go to that extra step of ensuring you haven't created an unintended consequence. 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:23.359 Because the reason these gates become dangerous is that you can't have a fence without a gate. 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:24.720 That would be a walled garden. 00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:30.880 And where you decide to make an entry point that enables vehicular and pedestrian access, no different than a garage. 00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:40.480 It's designed for a car, but we all walk through a garage door when it's open, you create potentially an unintended consequence because that gate has to be large enough to fit a car. 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:46.559 And so once it gets to be that size, it could be a potential casualty to an adult or a child if it falls. 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:52.720 It's just the physics of what it takes to secure that area, eight feet wide, seven feet tall, whatever your parameter is. 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:58.720 And so when people are aware of that, it takes about 30 seconds to see if there's a necessary fall stop post. 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.440 Like what I've told people is what would have kept Alex alive. 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:06.799 And of course, it's hard to say this as a parent, but I want people to understand it in terms of our broader mission. 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.319 Literally, it is a piece of metal that is shaped like an upside down L. 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:15.039 And what that does is it just catches a gate if it comes decoupled from a fence. 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.599 In many respects, it's no different than a doorstop. 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:22.240 So if you want to prevent your door from hitting, you know, a piece of drywall, you put a doorstop in place. 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.960 Takes somebody about 30 minutes, probably less. 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.720 If you want to prevent a gate from falling to the ground, you put a fall stop post in place. 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:35.839 You can design it however you want, but as long as it catches the gate before it hits the ground, yeah, you could still have an injury, but you won't have a fatality. 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:59.759 Yeah, and I would say as a little piece of free legal advice is that uh, you know, to quite the opposite end of these kind of frivolous lawsuits or nuisance lawsuits that are filed in that ADA context you mentioned earlier, Eric, uh, you avoid lawsuits when you take what apparently is an easy and cheap measure to prevent liability on your own property because you're responsible for people on your property. 00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:04.640 So easy, cheap way to avoid that kind of liability, not to mention the human tragedy. 00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:05.119 Yeah. 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:06.720 No, I I agree with you completely. 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.519 I never lead with that because to me, it's just you

don't even need to. 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:12.319 It's just, yeah, put put in 20 bucks and you have piece. 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:13.039 But you're right. 00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:18.000 Have you faced a pushback in this in pursuing this bill? 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:21.759 Uh, which again, I think all of our listeners would go, yeah, it's a no-brainer. 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:22.799 Kids are not. 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.279 Has there been opposition to this and why? 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:26.000 Yes. 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.119 You know, different levels depending on where we're at. 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:36.640 You know, to give you an example, we tried to pass legislation in California, and the wine association lobbied very hard against the bill. 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:45.920 You know, their argument is we've got tons of gates at these vineyards, and some of these gates are only opened by our employees, and they're only opened once or twice a year. 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:47.359 So this is overkill. 00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:52.480 I understand that logic, the challenge, like anything else in life, a gate only has to fall once. 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:56.720 So if you open it a hundred times and it only fails once, that is the difference between life and death. 00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:58.240 And so there is no margin of error. 00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:05.440 You know, it's like anything in life, and I I think part of it just comes down to your view of the role of government versus the individual. 00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:07.839 You know, some people worry it's a Trojan horse. 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:13.280 You know, you're gonna put in this law, and then now I'm gonna have a bunch of people looking for these gates. 00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.719 Uh, you know, they're gonna come after me if I'm non-compliant. 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:25.440 And I I never know how to respond to that because, of course, there's examples of that in society where, you know, people act in nefarious means, but that certainly is not the intent of the law. 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.800 It's actually a fantastic example because that's been a huge problem. 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:34.880 And actually, several of those law firms have been rightfully uh investigated by the California bar for that kind of garbage. 00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:35.360 Right. 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:40.000 So I I'm not saying there's no merit in that, but that's that's not what we're trying to solve for here. 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:41.599 We are we are trying to prevent deaths. 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:49.119 You get some people, um, and I had this conversation with a representative at PG ⁇ E actually when we were doing some of our Kalosha work. 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:53.519 He said, Look, we are certainly an organization that takes code compliance very seriously. 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.480 And he said, just so you know, we probably have thousands of these gates across the state. 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:05.840 So the last thing I want to do, it's not that I don't want to follow it, it's I need to know how many of these gates have to be retrofitted and how long do I have for compliance. 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.000 That is a totally legitimate response. 00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.719 And so, Eric, I've got 4,000 of these gates. 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:12.000 I'm just making up a number. 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:14.400 Do a thousand of these gates need these safety devices? 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:18.559 Where do you define the line between gates that need a safety device versus dome? 00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:26.079 Because when you look at the data to the point you made earlier about the 48 incidences, it's not me saying a gate that is 50 pounds could not cause a tragedy. 00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:27.679 That I would never say that. 00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:33.440 Um, but the lion's share of these gates are north of a couple hundred pounds. 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.239 And that typically is a functional length times width. 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.000 And once you have a vehicular gate, it gets to four or five hundred pounds. 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:53.840 Once those gates fall and topple to what led to Alex's death, if it's taller than the average human, so seven feet falling at the speed of gravity, that's much more likely to cause a fatality than a garden gate at a residential area that's only used for a lawnmower. 00:35:54.000 --> 00:36:06.960 So you do get into the what you would like in a perfect world, which is every gate has these safety devices, versus the practicality of just addressing all of these existing gates in our society today, residential, commercial, industrial, et cetera. 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:10.559 And then do you make it retroactive or do you make it only prospective going forward? 00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:13.119 Does this bill attempt to make it retroactive? 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:20.320 Does it attempt to bring everybody up to current coast standards within time, or does it simply require future new, newly installed gates? 00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:23.119 Most likely the latter, futuringly installed. 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:30.800 And what the bill does is it really at the core of it directs the CPSC to go promulgate a rule and a standard that everyone will have to follow. 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:34.639 And so it's one of these incidences where it's Congress and the U.S. 00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:36.480 Senate saying, this is a problem. 00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:42.800 We've passed this in the House, it makes its way up, hopefully at some point, to President Trump, and then it directs the CPSC to go act. 00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:50.880 I think to myself of, you know, code enforced officers and building folks and often our attorneys, they're out there in the field on these properties. 00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:55.840 I I can't think of one property that I've ever seen that doesn't have a gate fence in some form. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:58.159 It's just the

nature of the deal. 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:08.239 Although when I when I go speak in some of the, I find the northeastern area or northern midwest of our country, people often don't have fences separate in their yards. 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:09.679 And so maybe there's fewer. 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:16.320 But by and large, our code enforcement folks, our building folks, they're equally potentially victims of gate problems. 00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:20.559 And by definition, the properties they're inspecting are already substandard and problematic. 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.360 So the chances of a gate being a problem are even higher. 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:26.480 And they're interacting with far more of them during the day. 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:32.159 So I could see for our listeners here, your local government thinking, how does this affect me day? 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:34.159 Yeah, I want to protect kids, of course. 00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:34.719 That's my job. 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:35.679 But how does it affect me? 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:50.400 It affects you because how many gates are you thinking of right now as you listen to my voice that you have opened and closed, tried to open or close, or even encounter in the last day, or maybe before you listen to this podcast, or when you get into your office after this podcast episode. 00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.039 So we all have a stake in this, uh, no matter who we are. 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:54.960 And I've had this conversation with some people. 00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:01.280 And I know I, you know, where the legislative effort goes and it does just make its way to President Trump's desk, you know, time will tell. 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:12.880 But anyone who listens to this podcast or any advocacy work we do, you know, one thing I always ask people is when you're on a property and you see a gate, if you're qualified to look at it, I mean, again, I'm a layman. 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:18.159 I don't work in the industry, I work in finance, and he does a gate and doesn't have a safety device, just say something. 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:19.679 Like I've had that debate with people. 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:21.920 It's that classic if you see something, say something. 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:28.320 I mean, I've come across fence professionals who have said, I heard about your son's story, I'm aware of other deaths. 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:31.760 I'm just putting these devices on gates, whether the customer asks for it or not. 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.119 Because at a conscious level, I don't want to touch a gate that could fall. 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.639 And I think that's very powerful from an advocacy perspective. 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:44.320 Whatever parameters make its way into the bill or the building code or some of the work we're doing with OSHA. 00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:51.760 To me, at the end of the day, if someone just says, hey, I noticed we had a gate, I had it inspected, professional came

out and said, you know what, you're fine. 00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:54.320 These safety devices were installed correctly. 00:38:54.480 --> 00:39:00.559 And just like I get my car maintained every three to six months, maybe every three to five years we'll just come out to make sure it's working properly. 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.480 Because it is not a hard fix. 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:11.760 And the thing that is, I don't want to say easy about it, but this isn't the Ford Pinto where we have to decide, are we going to recall, are we going to recall two million cars and what that costs? 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.880 This is a nothing cost at the individual level. 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:19.599 And I haven't met anyone who said, oh no, I'm willing to take that risk over 40 bucks. 00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:20.079 Yeah. 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:20.800 Yeah, totally. 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:21.039 Yeah. 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:28.320 I've been thinking about that pinto and the pinto fires and the calculated decision for cost compared to lives for made. 00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:30.480 I it's uh it's a crazy thing in law school. 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:33.599 And even 20 years later, as we talk about it, but this is easy. 00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:43.280 And I like to think, and I still do believe that Americans, by and large, if they know something, know the right thing to do, are gonna do the right thing without being told what to do. 00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:50.400 Regardless of what happens with this bill, and I hope it does become law, that uh the campaign itself is a worthwhile endeavor. 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:54.079 You know, at a spiritual level, it's a way that we um honor our son. 00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:56.320 You know, I tell people this from time to time. 00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:10.239 I, you know, you're not gonna draw a straight line between the story I tell about Alex or the advocacy we worked, and then five years down the road, someone puts a safety stop on a fence and the fence becomes decoupled and it just falls into the stop and it saves someone's life. 00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.719 Nobody's gonna be able to draw that direct line for you. 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:18.480 But I'm very hopeful that, you know, we will save some someone's life somewhere. 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:30.480 And I didn't talk about it earlier, but you know, there was a case, and I don't know if you were aware of this, of a girl who died in Tucson, Arizona at Centennial Elementary School, November of 2024, right before Thanksgiving. 00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:31.760 I might be wrong on the year. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.719 Literally a carbon copy of how Alex died. 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:42.000 And so she was helping a teacher close a gate that had been installed to block off those massive garbage bins that you see at a school. 00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:44.000 They had a faulty stop post. 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:49.039 I mean, this is all in the public, became decoupled, fell on her, and then

she died right there on the playground. 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.079 And so, you know, obviously I'm not grateful for that. 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:57.119 And I just I know the pain that that family is going through and how hard that loss is the magnitude of. 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:00.079 Is it, but it just gives me such clarity, right? 00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.239 That, you know, we need to do something as a society. 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:02.400 Yeah. 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:04.800 Because this isn't something that happens every day. 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:11.119 But to your point, that those 48 incidences in California occurred across over a 20-year period. 00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:13.280 That's only a function of OSHA data. 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:15.119 So that has to be on an OSHA site. 00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:16.800 It has to be reported to OSHA. 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:19.440 So that that is not an all-encompassing list. 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:22.880 I mean, there's no database where you just go search gate deaths. 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:25.119 You have to piece this together over time. 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:30.079 But at some point, you know, how many deaths and injuries do you need before you just say this is what we're going to do? 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:32.480 A cost-benefit analysis to the point you made before. 00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:34.320 So, what's the valuable life? 00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:39.519 Uh, and the cost is actually pretty gross, but I I hear what you're saying with regard to that. 00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:56.159 And it makes me think as well about some of the erosion of some of the safety laws that have happened in recent times, where, and I don't mean to get political on this, we're a non-political, nonpartisan podcast, but there has been a little bit of, I feel like, safety amnesia uh at times. 00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:07.280 It hasn't just it's has affected California, but it's not just affecting us all over the place where we've like, we've think, oh, these bills, these laws are oppressive, they're getting in the way of development, they're driving up costs or whatever it may be. 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:08.639 Let's just get out of people's lives. 00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.000 Government should have a smaller role. 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:15.119 But yet, to our point, I want to drive this home for maybe the third time in this podcast episode for our listeners. 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:17.840 Almost every law is born out of tragedy. 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:21.920 So to undo it is to invite tragedy in the future. 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:29.840 So while we should revisit things that don't make sense, we shouldn't blindly say, let's just cut 25% of the safety laws for the sake of that. 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:35.840 20 years, someone may completely forget about that situation and look to undo it as some sort of overstepping. 00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:37.440 What do you have to say to them? 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.599 I would say the following. 00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:48.159 I understand the notion of, oh my God, I have this laundry list of safety guidelines I have to follow. 00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:49.920 I don't have time in the day. 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:55.280 What's the big deal if I skip through a few or four of these, you know, five, 10%, whatever? 00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:58.079 It's just, you know, California's a bill factory. 00:42:58.159 --> 00:42:59.440 It's just people pushing things out. 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:00.159 Right. 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:07.519 You know, you saw this with the bill that was proposed in response to remember that Berkeley balcony accident where all those kids died? 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.320 We talked about Virginia Graham Baker in the pool. 00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:16.480 That whole probability mindset to me falls away when the consequence is literally life and death. 00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:18.079 And that's what I try and tell people. 00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:22.960 And I I understand everyone's overwhelmed with data and requests, and that's the world we live in, right? 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:25.519 Everyone's turbocharged, et cetera. 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:33.039 But the genesis of these bills and these safety guidelines is more likely than not because someone had paid the ultimate price. 00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:44.559 And I can promise you, as someone who's gone through it, that whole, oh, I got 10 more items on my um list, let me just skip through it, that completely falls away when it's the difference between life and death for a loved one. 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:59.760 And so while I understand that it could become burdensome to some people in terms of following all these safety regulations, I can promise you on the other end of it, right, there's no debate about the worth because all of these safety guidelines, to your point. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:07.039 At least from what I've seen from the ASTM, they come from people who are well versed in the industry and they take this work very seriously. 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.280 Like I saw that in the ICC process. 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:11.760 It is like any professional organization. 00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:24.000 These people are knowledgeable, they're experienced in the field, and they literally want to make sure every word and every regulation is clear, concise, and it is the difference between life and death. 00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:27.199 I mean, they take their mission very seriously as a more succinct way to say it. 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.039 That's a very good point. 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:34.239 And you know, for our listeners, you may recall, if you haven't listened to it, listen to the history of code enforcement. 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:36.880 I mean, that that really is and the building's hazards. 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:48.000 There is uh a whole history behind all these things that, yeah, someone else with their life has uh created the need for, or I guess highlighted the need

rather for a measure to to save future lives. 00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:53.360 So, Eric, briefly, what about your your new campaign, Every School Assessed? 00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.880 What is that about and how can local government help in that? 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:14.000 You know, one thing we came across, um, because the court, you know, given the negligence that Mark Day and the fact that the gate had been built without a permit and it had, you know, fallen before and the school didn't fix it, you know, we we had to go through a legal process um over a wrongful death settlement uh with our son. 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:21.920 But what came out of that process, and I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but we quickly were exposed to the world of private versus public. 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:33.440 And what I mean by that is that as a private school, you know, Mark Day didn't take any money from the state, it was all funded by the parents, versus a public school where you take taxpayer dollars. 00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:36.559 There's a different level of oversight of that school. 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:46.000 And so if you're a public school in California, and I'll be directional here, because you take taxpayer funds, you have to have a school safety assessment once every one or two years. 00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:50.639 And I'm not saying gates are part of that, but you have someone coming in and inspecting the integrity of the school. 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:56.880 When you're private, just like any other business, you self-regulate because you fund your own entity. 00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:13.599 And so you can imagine in that construct, when you don't have an outside party trying to ensure a basic level of standards across all these schools, because at the end of the day, I tell people, and this is more than just gates, you're required by law to send your kids to school. 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:18.480 Like if I chose not to send my kids to school at 13 years old, the cops show up after a certain amount of time. 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:24.320 But in the private world, there is no third party necessarily who's required by law to come in. 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:26.639 That's up to the school head and to the school board. 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:48.320 And so you can imagine with just the amount of schools that we have in the state of California in the country, by definition, if everyone's self-regulating as it comes to school safety, you're going to get a very wide outcome in terms of how much time does a school board or a school head spend on safety assessments versus all the other competing interests you have. 00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:56.000 So it's not to say that you know, public schools have more focus on safety versus private schools. 00:46:56.239 --> 00:47:08.800 It's it's of course everyone wants to make sure schools are safe, but it's just a function of if you're in a private school, do you have the right resources and expertise to do those independent assessments? 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:20.079 Because if you don't, I can promise you from the lawsuit that we went through with Mark Day, you are taking an inordinate and an unnecessary risk unless you reach out to these uh people. 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:31.039 So that's part of our ready-set safe mantra is if I go tell my story to a head of a school, I mean, naturally they're going to shut down and say, Oh my God, you know, how did that happen? 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:34.880 I can't believe, you know, the school did unpermitted work and all of that. 00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:40.480 But really, we go through it through the parent advocacy is just so parents are aware, right? 00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:48.079 And not in a fashion where you have to go accuse a school head, et cetera, of saying, you know, hey, are you doing everything you can to keep my child safe? 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:50.559 But just so they know, hey, I heard about this child. 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:52.320 And it doesn't have to be just gates. 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:58.239 You know, when we spend time with school experts, kids have died in those partitions, you know, in a school gym. 00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:02.320 So, you know, those partitions that I might be close, small children have been caught in those. 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:06.639 Kids have died from um, obviously, school shootings separate those. 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:08.480 Choking is a very common incident. 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:11.840 Kids have died from soccer goals, you know, those removable soccer goals. 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:26.159 You'll see some kid hanging on it like it's the monkey bars, it falls to the And so it is, I gotta be honest, it's probably very overwhelming for a school head to say, let me think through all the different permutations of what could go wrong from a safety mechanism. 00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:35.360 And so what we encourage parents and school administrators to do is to make sure that somebody is checking the school because you need an expert in this field, right? 00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:39.440 Sadly, realistically, they're not going to be able to predict everything. 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:44.639 Every step in the right direction is a step in the right direction and potentially saves a life. 00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:55.199 And there's so many industry resources, like what we found for the situation we came out of, you know, too much had been just put upon the head of maintenance at our son's school. 00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:55.840 Sure. 00:48:56.079 --> 00:49:01.840 And it's not fair to go to one person and say, okay, you're responsible for thinking through all the permutations of what could go wrong. 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:03.360 There's plenty of services. 00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:06.239 Um, there's these state checklists that we've talked about. 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:11.519 And and we're not here trying to go, you know, fund business for, you know, private parties. 00:49:11.599 -->

00:49:12.400 That's not the goal. 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:22.159 But it's just so school heads and boards ask the question when's the last time we had a safety inspection of just the physical integrity of our um school, right? 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.559 And I tell this to people all the time. 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:32.639 You know, one of the first things Mark Day did after we settled our lawsuit is they went to, I think it's the California Department of Architecture. 00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:36.320 I forget the actual body that oversees, you know, standards for school safety. 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.000 And they had an inspection done at Mark Day, right, to give them peace of mind. 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:42.880 Well, it's it's too late to do that after you've lost a child. 00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:47.599 Like imagine if you had had that type of resource allocated before the gate fell. 00:49:47.679 --> 00:49:50.000 Now, would they have called caught the gate and the safety device? 00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:50.559 Who knows? 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:57.599 But the idea of we went to the division of the state architect after a deaf, you know, my message to a school head and a board is, oh God, don't wait for that, right? 00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:03.360 Take these best practices, make sure you're aware of the resources that exist, whether it's public or private. 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:06.880 And this is something that probably couldn't be done on an annual basis. 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:10.960 No different than when the fire department comes on a school and it checks the fire extinguisher. 00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:12.880 I mean, the stuff is literally simple. 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:19.760 You just need to be cognizant of do I really have a command as a school head or a board of all the potential risks I face. 00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:22.159 Some things you just don't even know, you don't know. 00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:24.880 And you know, like you said, there's so many boxes to check. 00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:26.639 You could see how someone's lost in that. 00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:30.400 No one goes in, they're running a school with the hope of hurting kids that want to help. 00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:35.199 But these are things that we need to know about because they are easy fixes, easy preventions. 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:36.480 Yes. 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.719 In the spirit of maybe it's a bad analogy, it's like when I bought my house, I had a home inspection. 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:42.239 I mean, restaurants get inspected. 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:43.920 That's one thing Dan and I have talked about. 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:48.079 You know, when you go to a restaurant and gets an A, B, or C, I mean, why not have that grade at a school? 00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:57.679 I understand it's tough for a school because at the end of the day, parents are hyper focused on the environment because you outsource chair care of your child from nine to three. 00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:01.599 And so people are defensive about opening the kimono, always here, all the things that were found. 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:09.119 I am cognizant of that for a school head, but why not have that assessment done every single year and then you have that peace of mind? 00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:11.599 Like it seems like a no-brainer from my seat. 00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:22.639 And there could be, and just from a legislative perspective, there can be mechanisms like safe harbor provisions that protect schools during a certain period of time if they've identified these things to get a fixed, so you encourage them. 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:24.559 So all these levers can be done. 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:36.880 So how has, just as a as a dad and a mom and a family, how has taking this proactive approach helped you guys in uh dealing with this trauma? 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:42.960 Not to get too personal for the audience, you know, your natural instinct and reaction. 00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:45.599 You know, I mean, to be honest, I mean, first it's just anger. 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:52.719 You know, when we saw the level of uh negligence and indifference uh at our son's prior school, I mean, we were just shocked. 00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:58.239 I mean, I just I couldn't comprehend, you know, the gate that killed Alex had fallen in November. 00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:07.039 Um, and there was this email of a teacher basically saying, Oh, I just put it back up, emailed a head of maintenance, and he said, Oh, wow, that's a first. 00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:08.079 And then no one did anything. 00:52:08.159 --> 00:52:09.679 Like, I just I can't comprehend that. 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:17.199 That would be like me coming home, seeing my garage door just on the floor of the garage and just putting it up on myself and saying, Oh, I'll get to that next week. 00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:20.000 So, but that that is reality, and I had to accept that. 00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:27.760 And so you have to go through that candidly just period of anger where you realize you just have to accept the world for what it is, not what you want it to be. 00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:49.519 But then coming out of that, um, I think what's been very helpful for us is just an acknowledgement that there's a way to obviously honor Alex, right, with all that we're doing, and that there really is a way to integrate his loss in a very positive way because your instinct is just to run from it. 00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:55.119 And I tell people this, because of course we've come across other people in our lives who've lost children, etc. 00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:59.840 And this is not something you can run for or just put into a box because it will always find you. 00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:02.639 And so you do have to go through grief. 00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:09.039 And there's tons of psychologists and her professionals who talk about the stages of grief, and and they are right, it is a process. 00:53:09.280 -->

00:53:16.559 But once you come to a point where you can incorporate it into your life, um, it can become very powerful from a spiritual perspective. 00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:22.159 And so for me personally, I mean, I don't want to speak for Dana because she's not uh on the podcast with me. 00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:28.400 It's a it's a way that I just um honor his life and then keep going forward. 00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:33.840 Because you can imagine as a parent, I mean, I'll be brutally honest, it absolutely paralyzes you. 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:38.559 Like from my perspective, Alex's life is a complete demarcation point. 00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:40.719 Like, I think of life when he was alive. 00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.760 I mean, obviously had a life before I had children and life afterwards. 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:50.559 And so how it changes you and just how you approach your day and just the stresses of your day, et cetera, you just have to be cognizant of it. 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:51.119 Yeah. 00:53:51.280 --> 00:54:14.400 And for those, you know, listening here who want to hear more about uh grief and tragedy and you know, trying to come back to some extent, come back to a new normal from that, you know, check out our episode, two episodes of Mason Sawyer from the 1090 podcast, who lost um two of his kids, brother, wife, and uh uh nephew in a car accident in Utah. 00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:15.840 And he talks about that. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:18.960 And so it's uh yeah, it's it's just an awful scenario. 00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:24.320 But your action and your activism inevitably will be saving lives and has saved lives. 00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:27.840 So I guess with a party question for you here, Eric. 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:39.679 And I'm so thankful for you sharing this information with this because I'll tell you in 20 years, being actively involved in local government, building, code enforcement, you never you realize you've never really seen it all. 00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:46.639 And this is what people by their very nature present variables all the time, but I never heard of this issue before. 00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:49.840 And so this is uh this is very powerful to hear. 00:54:50.159 --> 00:55:01.440 What would be if you could snap your fingers and have something change right now to prevent this from happening then? 00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:02.559 What would that be? 00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:14.480 I would love if just I don't want to say every single person who's out there, but anyone who sees a fence or a gate just asks themselves put it this way. 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:19.280 You would notice right away if you got into a car and it didn't have a seatbelt. 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:25.280 I would love a safety fall post for a gate and a fence to be as ubiquitous as a car seatbelt. 00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:26.880 That's not gonna happen overnight. 00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:27.599 Right, right. 00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:35.119 And we had to get there as an industry in the automobiles, and I don't want to throw my parents under the bus, but I was born in 1979. 00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:39.760 I'm quite sure my dad threw a playpen in the back of a minivan and just drove us to Daycare. 00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:40.159 Right. 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:40.320 Yeah. 00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:42.559 Then society it was the same deal. 00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:49.360 But then society changed, and people said, I want to buckle my seatbelt, right? 00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:54.800 I want to follow the speed limit, and so I would love that same mentality to apply to gates and fences, to be very candid. 00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:59.360 I'm not saying it's the same size of a problem as car fatalities and car crashes. 00:55:59.440 --> 00:56:00.880 I'm not trying to equate the two. 00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:05.760 But in terms of just that recognition, that in and of itself would be the most powerful thing. 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:08.000 Because then you wouldn't have to have rules and regulations. 00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:20.480 I mean, the rules and regulations will serve as an advocacy mechanism, but if people were just aware at how dangerous these gates and fences are and just asked the question on their own, you'd put an end to, if not all, a majority of these deaths. 00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:24.960 There was a time where doctors were prescribing cigarettes. 00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:30.400 Uh now the thought of smoking is like, you know, you gotta know what you're getting into at that point. 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:32.960 If someone lit up a cigarette on a plane. 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:44.079 Even here in California, you know, for our out-of-state listeners who think, oh, you Californians, you know, I for going to restaurants where it was like smoke-filled, and now I walk into a place, you can't even imagine that's happening. 00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:45.039 It's crazy, mess. 00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:46.719 I I think there'll be a world at some point. 00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:48.719 I don't know if it's a year for now, it could be 50 years. 00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:49.760 We won't even think twice. 00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:52.000 It's like, well, why would you build a gate without a safety device? 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:53.440 That makes no sense, 100%. 00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:57.519 Well, Eric, it's been a great conversation, very enlightening conversation. 00:56:57.599 --> 00:56:59.920 Uh, thank you so much for joining us today. 00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:07.599 Thank you so much for sharing your family's story and how um you're seeking to prevent other families from having to deal with this stuff. 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:10.400 Where can people go to learn more about ReadySet Safe? 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:13.440 I'm presuming ready setsafe.org, which I was just on. 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:17.039 And where can they go to learn about uh your various initiatives? 00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:25.360 Yeah, no, that that's the best place for um obviously the broader non-for-profit we started in honor of Alex, readysetsafe.org. 00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:33.920 But I would say away from that, you know, the work we're doing with the ICC, um, you know, we obviously just passed through the Hartford process in April. 00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:44.159 And so anyone who's out there in terms of an advocate to make sure that these get adopted as they go to the state's triannual um adoption cycle, you know, would be much appreciated in my end. 00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:46.719 Um, because as you know, the ICC is really the first step. 00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:51.519 Now we got to make sure that this makes its way into all the building codes across all 50 states. 00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:57.119 And last but not least, you know, the ICC has international reach and this is an international problem. 00:57:57.360 --> 00:58:02.320 So anyone out there who's got a role to play in terms of our advocacy, it would be much appreciated to join us. 00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:04.320 And you listeners know who you are. 00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:07.440 So follow this up with an email to Eric, please. 00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:10.079 Uh, and go on the website where there's a contact us. 00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:11.440 Eric, thank you so much. 00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:12.800 No, I really appreciate it. 00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:16.400 And to all of you who've taken the time to hear our story, we appreciate the time. 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:19.039 Well, this has been another episode of the True Code Podcast. 00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:20.880 Thank you all for joining us here today. 00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:29.840 Uh, keep an eye out for future episodes of the podcast as we continue to shed the light of truth on local government and code enforcement and all that we do out there. 00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:31.599 Thank you for joining us today. 00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:36.159 Thank you for joining us on this journey. 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:42.159 If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now. 00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:43.599 Until next time,