Full Transcript for 20 - TruPlanning: The Life and Death of Cities (Part 1)

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WEBVTT 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:07.919 Two cities just across the street from each other. 00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:11.679 What seems like the same neighborhood appears to be a different part of different worlds. 00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:19.280 One jurisdiction is thriving, clean streets, active businesses, while the other is filled with boarded up windows, illegal dumping, and vacant lots. 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:20.079 What changed? 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:23.519 How do growing cities thrive and what can be done about our dying cities? 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:32.799 Stay tuned to learn all about the life and death of cities and the critical role planning, zoning, and code enforcement play in shaping the future of our communities. 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:44.000 From Civic A Law, this is TrueCode, a podcast explaining what code enforcement is, why our communities need it, and why you should care. 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:50.000 From firsthand experiences, we discuss quality of life issues to reveal the truth about code enforcement. 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:15.840 Adam is the community development director for Coastal City here in California, also a planner. 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:27.040 And with a long history in planning and hailing originally from uh Louisiana, Adam comes with a varied uh level of world experience uh talking about zoning and planning and history. 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:33.359 And we're gonna dive into what makes a good city good and what makes a bad city bad, and why do we even have them in the first place? 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:35.200 So, Adam, glad to have you here. 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:36.159 Welcome to the show. 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:36.959 Thanks, Matt. 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:38.000 It's my pleasure to be here. 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:39.280 I appreciate the opportunity. 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:40.159 Absolutely. 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:45.599 Uh so Adam, we always ask our guests, how the heck did you get into code enforcement in the first place? 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:48.239 It's a relatively circuitous story. 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:50.959 It started out in my early 20s. 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:57.599 I worked in construction, real estate development, project management, those kinds of things in the private sector. 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:03.120 And I was fortunate enough to be in my middle to late 20s when the Great Recession hit. 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:07.760 So I wasn't far enough along in my career to survive that type of economic hit. 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:11.840 And I wasn't young enough to be able to live with my parents a few years longer. 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:14.879 So forced me to make some hard decisions. 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:17.439 And one of those decisions was to go back to school. 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:31.120 So I went back to UCSD and finished up a degree that I started in political science, transferred over to urban studies and planning, and then from there went to San Diego State University and got a master's in public administration. 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:38.800 My goal was to get into the private sector to help develop affordable housing. 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:40.879 That was really what I wanted to do. 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:45.439 And in my UCSD career, I needed to have an internship. 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:49.280 So this kind of plays into uh what we're going to be discussing here today. 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:55.759 I wanted to get involved in plans, specifically building plans, project development, that kind of thing. 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:57.439 You have plans to get into plans. 00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:58.879 Get into plans, yeah. 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:03.759 There was a part of me that, you know, also had interest in becoming an architect, something like that. 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:13.199 So as I was going through to finish up my degree, I started sending out applications to local governments, and I saw that they had planning divisions. 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:16.639 And I said, Well, the planning division, they must be dealing with plans. 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:21.039 I really had no idea what zoning actually was at the local level. 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:23.199 And so I showed up in San Clemente. 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:26.159 They're the only city that returned my inquiries. 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:37.120 And within three weeks, it absolutely blew my mind that this was something that humans as an organization provided at a municipal level. 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:38.719 Meaning, what is this? 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:39.439 Meaning what? 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:46.560 Actually planning and zoning and that somebody is somebody other than private developers are thinking about the future growth of cities. 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:47.680 It blew my mind. 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:52.319 So I started working in the planning division as an unpaid intern. 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:56.800 I just saw that unbelievable opportunities of continuing in that line. 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:05.759 And so I essentially just hung out until the Great Recession subsided enough that they uh hired me as an assistant planner part-time. 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:08.560 I was still finishing up my master's degree at that time. 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:13.199 And so once that was completed, I took a full-time position as an associate planner. 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:24.319 How that all got into code compliance was I'd quickly established myself as somebody that can take on projects and handle them quickly and efficiently. 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:29.759 And particularly probably complicated ones or ones that nobody else really wants to or knows how to deal with. 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:30.160 Right. 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.399 Which is like the definition of code enforcement. 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:33.199 100%. 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:41.839 And so a lot of those projects that I took on were specifically related to addressing community concerns. 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:47.120 So I had a

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project where I updated the city's massage establishment ordinance. 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:48.800 We had lost a hospital. 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:57.519 And so one of my projects was to rezone that area in such a way that it would foster a hospital returning. 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:01.759 That never materialized, but the hospital has been shuttered to this day. 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.639 And we're hoping that it at some point it will be redeveloped. 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:10.240 We saw that pending blight and wanted to do what we could to try to revitalize that type of land use. 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:21.519 And so that drive, ironically, because of a hospital shuttering to clean up the neighborhood, to unshutter the building, uh, is kind of what led you to code enforcement. 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:23.839 Honestly, it was more than that. 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:31.519 So around 2015, 2016, we had issues with silver living homes and vacation rentals. 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:48.800 And I stepped up and I said, you know, I think we can look at this holistically and just talk about what kind of neighborhoods do we want under a larger umbrella of just like what are we looking for in terms of the performance of properties within residential zones, not just how they look. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:59.920 And so we uh we went through that process, updated uh multiple sections of the code to address boarding houses and uh vacation rentals or what we call short-term lodging units. 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.920 And once all of that was done and our ordinances were in place, two things happened. 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:16.800 We had a code compliant supervisor who uh who left to take a job somewhere else, and the city was left with the monumental burden now of actually enforcing the laws that we had just created. 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:25.199 And so an opportunity arose for me, and I took the promotion to step in uh initially as an interim code compliance supervisor. 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:33.600 But once I got involved in what they're really out there doing, which is, I think it's one of the least understood aspects of municipal governance. 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:41.519 I mean, the intrigue that's developed going through the process of investigating land use violations, it was phenomenally exciting to me. 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.120 So we converted that position to a code compliance manager. 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:50.480 That just started another chain reaction of other issues that the city wanted to deal with. 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:51.439 Well, yeah, absolutely. 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:53.839 You oversaw uh park rangers as well. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:58.160 They developed a park ranger division in addition to code enforcement, right? 00:06:58.399 --> 00:06:58.959 Yes, yes. 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:01.199 And that's still under the community development department. 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:03.199 So I do oversee them as well. 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:09.120 Uh additionally, we got uh some community outreach workers to help deal with the homeless encampments and all that stuff, yeah. 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:11.360 And that all falls under code. 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:20.319 Adam, you really articulated something that we have heard in a different form in every one of these podcast episodes. 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:33.759 You know, we've had people on from Georgia and Florida and all around uh the country and California, and not one person, I think, has said, uh, yeah, I intended to go into code enforcement. 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:34.959 I knew what it was. 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.240 My come from a long line of code enforcement people in the family, and I always wanted to go into it. 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:49.759 You know, what you what you talked about was kind of an indirect route into it that and you ended up liking it, that has really hit us all in code enforcement. 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:54.000 So it's a circuitous route, but it ends up pulling us in like a tractor beam. 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:54.560 We can't escape. 00:07:54.720 --> 00:08:01.759 Yeah, you know, if it's not an astronaut, a police officer, a firefighter, or a lifeguard, no kid has known about that job, right? 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:02.240 Right. 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:03.120 Yeah, it's so true. 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:03.439 Yeah. 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:13.839 And it's it's such a unique and at the same time ubiquitous type of presence, you know, that I think it takes time for people to find their way into it, which I think is better. 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.519 You know, I think people need life experience when they're dealing with code enforcement. 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:23.680 You know, we have constant conversations about the purpose and to some extent the value of code compliance. 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.839 And I'm speaking as a community development director of a city of 60,000 people. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:30.000 So we're small enough. 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:34.240 We know the council knows all of their constituents, all of the people. 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:46.720 You know, we're not the coastal commission where if a couple coastal property owners are upset about something, the coastal commission can come back and go, we're here for the 30 million people that are not lucky enough to live where you live. 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:52.960 When you're dealing with a population that you can know on a first name basis, then you're dealing with constituents. 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:59.759 And you were talking about enforcement against people who are the same people that often make the community what it is. 00:08:59.919 --> 00:09:01.440 You know, and it's a very fine line. 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:06.159 It requires a certain level of sophistication and life experience. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:07.840 Yeah, no, I I completely agree. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:13.759 I mean, code enforcement is vested with discretion and how to wield that

comes a lot of times well from life experience. 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.720 Sometimes it's on the job, sometimes it's before, like your case. 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:21.039 So let's talk about let's talk about the intersection of zoning and code enforcement. 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:34.159 So, you know, it's uh probably a pretty well-known fact to a lot of our listeners that uh there is one city, at least of note, in the country that does not care to have zoning laws, city of Houston, Texas. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:34.480 Yeah. 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:37.600 Everybody else likes to set up zones. 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:45.600 Just off the bat, Adam, how would you just in a nutshell, what is the like five-second explaining it to your mom definition of what the heck zoning is? 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.639 Zoning is the local application of legitimate police power. 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:59.519 And it comes through to assure that there is quality of life for issues that are not addressed by state or federal laws. 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:01.919 That's fundamentally the point of zoning. 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:03.120 Yeah, I agree with you. 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:07.440 I think of it in the way I visualized that game SimCity. 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:08.240 Absolutely. 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:08.720 Right. 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:18.480 And visually, you would apply zoning in your city, which is like super advanced for some 10-year-old kid just trying to like pass the time. 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:29.919 And I think of it as how a city slices and dices, or even a county slices and dices up its land to ensure the best use of it and reduce impacts on each other. 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:34.879 So I think of it like you don't want a single family house next to a smelting plant, for example. 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:44.720 You don't, you know, you know, apartments will often serve as a buffer between commercial, because it feeds the commercial, feeds the businesses, and the single family residential, for example. 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:53.360 And so it's a separation of uses in a way that makes sense for community to function, um, which really, when you get into it, everything's kind of zoning, isn't it? 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.840 Isn't everything land use in America? 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:57.039 At a certain level? 00:10:57.279 --> 00:10:57.840 Absolutely. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:10:58.320 Right? 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:10.799 I mean, like I just think of going back to like colonial times, you know, there was a blacksmith probably right next to, speaking of kind of like a light industrial smelting use, next to probably his house. 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:17.440 But if someone else ever bought his house from him, probably not the most ideal location for that place or a tavern. 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:20.159 Who doesn't love a good tavern until you go home to go to sleep? 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.559 You can still hear your buddies hooting and hollering over some pints of

ale next door, right? 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:25.360 Absolutely. 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:29.440 And a lot of that development was dependent on a number of things. 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:39.840 You know, transportation has had a huge impact on how we zoned things or how the public perceives appropriately placed land uses, whether that's through zoning or not. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.399 You know, Houston is an interesting uh subject. 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:47.279 I, you know, there's one architect, Philip Johnson, who designed half of the buildings in that town. 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:48.480 I mean, that was his playground. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.279 He essentially designed most of what you see there today. 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:57.120 That doesn't mean, though, that there aren't regulations in place in Houston. 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:01.120 They have a lot of restrictions that are recorded through deeds. 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:09.919 To this day, I have cousins that live in Houston and they live in a community that has a sign that says that certain folks are not allowed. 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.240 Like certain races or something aren't allowed. 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:14.080 Well, uh else put it this way. 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:19.200 They put it in the in the positive sense of who is allowed, and it excludes a lot of people. 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:21.360 That's it were 2026. 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.759 It 2026, of course, none of those regulations apply. 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:26.240 Right. 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:27.679 Is the sign still there? 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:28.559 Yes, it is. 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:29.120 Wow. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:42.799 Now, you also have things that will naturally limit or help organize how uses come together, and that is uh through a function of you know, city infrastructure. 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:58.480 You know, if you're if you're an industrial area and you need access to railroad lines or large power lines, things of that nature, and the city hasn't placed them, you know, because it's mostly residential in that area, that will naturally kind of create its own its own zoning. 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:03.519 You're not gonna build my steel mill example at the end of a cul-de-sac surrounded by a bunch of houses. 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:07.679 The free market would probably dissuade you from doing that. 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:13.519 And your shareholders would say, you're not gonna make the most profit by doing that, and so it's not gonna work out. 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:22.159 Now, with that said, you know, Houston does have you know some of its own challenges in terms of its growth, then that will need to be, you know, reconciled. 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:39.600 One thing that you can notice in how zoning is applied uh nationally, is towns that have more community buy-in, more community ownership, civic participation, things of that nature tend to be much more heavily regulated. 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:45.919

It's also true that cities that have higher property values tend to be much more heavily regulated. 00:13:46.159 --> 00:14:06.480 Zoning in many ways, and it's been positive and negative, is designed to preserve and maintain property values, maintain establish standards for a minimum amount of aesthetic value of it of a particular area, neighborhood preservation, all of those kinds of things, which ties into code enforcement. 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:13.440 Kind of speaking of that, Adam, I mean, I do want to get into kind of where the origins of zoning laws are, where the heck did this come from? 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.639 But before we do, real quick, do want to touch on a point you raised. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.519 I think it's very interesting. 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:22.720 You said that typically a more affluent community is likely to have more regulations. 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:24.720 Now, what's the chicken egg there? 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:32.159 Is it that they are more affluent because there are more regulations that keep it looking nicer and therefore people want to move there and keep it up? 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:37.759 Or is it that the more affluent it is, the more they want to keep it that way and therefore they squash problems? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:53.679 I think it's a function of the investment that is made in properties, uh, meaning that the more money that a property costs, the more desire there's going to be from the property owner to maintain the value of those properties. 00:14:54.159 --> 00:15:01.759 Therefore leading to more regulations and probably more complaints to the city about what's happening in their backyard and NIMBYism and all that kind of stuff. 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:02.559 Absolutely. 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:09.360 On the flip side of that, you have cities that are they're establishing themselves in today's world. 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:15.759 They will often adopt set of zoning regulations that I would say are typical of most cities. 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:36.720 If they have a target audience in mind, if it's a say a bedroom community that doesn't have a lot of access to jobs, you're generally, I think, going to find, and especially if they're larger homes and they're going to be sold for more, you're probably marketing towards a population that is going to be more accepting of regulation. 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:52.320 Well, for one, you might just have less people because if it's not densely zoned, such as apartment units or condos, for example, or intergenerational housing, uh, you've simply got less people who are going to be potentially voicing in opposition. 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:52.960 Right. 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:54.000 Or a pro. 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:54.879 Exactly. 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.879 So those communities, I would say, are generally the more master planned. 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:00.879 You've got somebody coming in, they're going to develop everything. 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:06.399 So those are newer by definition, because they have the ability to master plan it as opposed to redoing it from inside out. 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:06.879 Right. 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:19.679 Now you also have cities that are up and coming or less developed, whether they've been incorporated for, you know, years or decades or not, but they don't have that same type of investment initially come in. 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:28.639 In that scenario, more development regulations and zoning laws are probably a hindrance to attracting the investment. 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:41.600 And in order for the city to provide those services, the infrastructure, recreational amenities, things of that nature to attract people to move to that community, they need certain things. 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.399 And one of those certain things is they need revenue. 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.200 So they're generally going to be way more accepting. 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:53.679 A little more Lawsite Fair auto parks and large box retailers, uh, just to kind of kick that off. 00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:02.879 Kind of the antithesis of community culture and character is the giant warehouse that's a distribution center filled with two people and a bunch of bots. 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:15.200 Actually, that's a perfect unintentional point in time in which we can hop in our flux capacitor DeLorean and go way back in time to the Founding Fathers and the colonial times. 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:16.880 Is that where zoning started? 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:20.160 Did we bring that with us from Jolly Old England? 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:26.640 Or at what point did zoning and this whole like parsing up the town between different uses come into play? 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.200 So there's a lot of history on zoning. 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:36.160 In many cultures over the centuries, they have had some type of city planning efforts. 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:55.599 What we consider today as zoning is really based in, I'll say the 1800s, when specifically New York started overdeveloping, and they didn't have those resources of transportation that were necessary to have incredibly large groups of people working in all of the factories that were being developed. 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.200 You know, this is kind of a post-industrialization type of development. 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.240 And so you had tenement houses right next to industrial plants. 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:16.079 You had just a state of factories alone and fires and things that they had really put a spotlight on the need to use police power to protect the public health and safety. 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:23.920 And so there was some federal legislation that was passed that enabled states to adopt zoning regulations. 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:30.079 The states, in turn, were able to adopt enabling legislation to allow that authority for cities. 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.960 And so that's what happened when California.

00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:41.440 That has been a pendulum over the years. 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.359 And right now, the pendulum is kind of swinging the other way. 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:46.480 In the state's favor. 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:46.960 Absolutely. 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:49.359 The state is telling cities how they should zone. 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:49.920 Yes. 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.880 But going kind of going back to New York and the tenements and the factories, I mean, what was it? 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.759 What is it that protects health and safety by enacting zoning here? 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:06.240 What is it about separating where the people are living in the tenements from where they're working in the factories? 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.799 What is it about that that is helpful? 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:17.119 In that type of situation, you have a high polluting type of development that is very close to where people live. 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:23.759 And if they're working in that environment and they're also living in that environment, you're naturally going to have negative health consequences. 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.799 Um, and this is not a problem that has absolutely been solved. 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.599 This is a problem that has continued to try to be addressed. 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:47.839 Most recently, the state of California has required a new policies be incorporated into cities general plans related to environmental justice, uh, and looking at where people are uh living in relation to the negative externalities of their neighborhoods. 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:50.480 This to kind of put it into practical reality. 00:19:50.640 --> 00:20:01.680 Maybe an aspect of the environmental justice is that people have a right, even if they're impoverished, not to live literally next to the airport or live literally next to a giant polluting factory, for example. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:02.240 Yes. 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:02.559 Yeah. 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:09.039 And economic justice seeks to provide equity for people that don't have the means to provide it themselves. 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:14.000 People in Point Loma down in San Diego, at this point, they've chosen to live next to an airport. 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:15.279 The airport has been there for very long time. 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:15.839 It's a choice. 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:16.559 Yeah, sure. 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:25.279 They have the means to bind together as a community and fight the airport and require that no planes land after, you know, 9:30 or 10 p.m. 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.319 A la Orange County airport next to New Board Beach. 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:28.799 Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.000 They have to like shut off their engines when they take off at a certain elevation. 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:32.799 Exactly. 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:33.200 Right. 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.799 There's a lot of communities that don't have the same ability to do that. 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.319 You know, recently we've had a hazmat scare here in Orange County. 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.200 It's about the Garden Grove chemical plant that almost exploded. 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:43.680 Yeah. 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.960 There were 50,000 people who were evacuated. 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:55.920 And the maps of the evacuation areas, I can see 50,000 people living there, but I have to say, like my first reaction was I can't believe 50,000 people live in this particular area. 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.240 It's a pretty tight circle around that chemical plant. 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.119 It is very tight, but also tight is how close homes are actually to that plant. 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:03.440 Right. 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.079 That's the kind of environmental justice that I think the state is trying to address. 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:12.720 It may be a little bit after the fact, and it may be a little bit clumsy trying to clean some of that up. 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.839 But that's what zoning is trying to prevent on the front end of things. 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:16.880 Right, right. 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.640 You're planning these communities in a way that accomplishes a lot of goals. 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.440 Now, conversely, let's go back to Garden Grove. 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:37.920 Do you have people living too far away from where they're working, assuming that they're working maybe not at the plant, but maybe at a factory or something, and there isn't the transportation to get them back and forth, you're not able to fill the jobs to do those things in those communities and cities die. 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:38.559 Absolutely. 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:51.920 And California, again, you know, they've got greenhouse gas emission uh policies to try to limit new development that is not close to employment centers, trying to reduce the amount of vehicle miles traveled among the state. 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:58.000 And so we're trying to separate land uses so that people's quality of life can improve. 00:21:58.240 --> 00:21:59.599 We're also trying to reduce that. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.359 Space so that we're not polluting the environment, right? 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.440 And so zoning now is threading the tightest needle. 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:09.359 Campbell through the eye of a needle. 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:10.240 Yeah, right. 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:11.039 Absolutely. 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:22.400 I think what's interesting too is you know, California uh does a lot of state level dictates down to cities about what their zoning should be, and this should be that. 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.640 I find, tell me if you totally disagree, but I find it based on a fantasy. 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:31.119 And that fantasy is always well, there's gonna be uh transit. 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:34.000 There's a bus line nearby that everybody will take. 00:22:34.240 -->

00:22:40.319 So you can build dense population away from work because everybody's gonna take the light rail. 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:41.440 What light rail? 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:42.240 What bus? 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:49.759 And if you've been on a bus in California, not a lot of the buses you want to get on, and who knows where they'd stop or on the way, how long it's gonna take you to get where you're going. 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:59.200 And so I feel like in California, there's this desire to try to um center or order cities to develop around something that simply doesn't exist. 00:22:59.440 --> 00:22:59.839 Absolutely. 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.680 Outside of the BART in the Bay Area, which is great, amazing. 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:08.559 Uh, but we have 480 cities and there's like 10 that are involved with BART. 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:15.519 Yeah, you need a lot of transportation options to really make multimodal uh planning work that's not autocentric. 00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:25.039 California was based on and the and AAA worked very hard to make sure that California was developed, especially Southern California was developed, autocentric. 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:32.880 Yeah, in fact, if you drove along or ever saw a picture of Huntington Beach, uh Surf City, USA, by the way, 100 years ago. 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:38.319 Hell, my grandpa, um, he's been past for some time now, but he was born in 1918. 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:43.440 And he would tell me, I used to take a trolley up and down PCH. 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:46.400 And I'm like, we're here a hundred years later. 00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:47.599 Where is the trolley? 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.759 Oh, the gas guys killed it, the oil guys killed it, the car guys killed it. 00:23:51.920 --> 00:24:02.240 It's interesting to me that there's this talk these days about how do we get more mass transit, like as if it's a new concept, but this thing existed a hundred years ago. 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:02.799 Yeah. 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:06.400 And what I mean, what role, what role does money play? 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:15.200 We've talked a little bit about money in terms of affluence and regulations and cities, but what role does big-time interests and money play in zoning? 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:24.400 And and how zoning plays out in terms of things that existed a hundred years ago, like mass transit, that right now we're like, why don't we have mass transit? 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:24.880 Yeah. 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.559 No, I think it's a huge influence. 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.200 I think it permeates in a number of ways. 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:41.200 Uh, you know, in terms of transportation, definitely uh very large interests in what type of transportation is provided, but it also plays out in terms of uh who's developing property. 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:51.759 Well, a lot of times we have uh large developers come in and they want to develop a large tract area and they'll develop their own

zoning. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.640 And it's it's what's called a specific plan. 00:24:54.799 --> 00:25:00.799 It establishes standards that are different than what is provided in a municipal code typically or a zoning ordinance. 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:20.480 And it's for the purposes of ensuring that the development is able to maintain a certain cohesiveness and to also address some issues that may be uh present in the topography or the geography of the area, provide a level of flexibility for larger developments. 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:24.799 However, those plans are typically done by the developer. 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:36.400 And so if there's a profit motive involved, then they're going to be looking at putting together zoning regulations that provide for a community that would return the biggest profit to the developer. 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:39.920 Uh so that's, you know, the city ultimately will approve that. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:47.599 You know, those types of developments, you typically don't get a lot of public comment on them because they are out on the outstretches of a community. 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:50.480 And they were done a long time before anybody moved into care. 00:25:50.880 --> 00:26:09.119 I mean, I think uh I think Irvine, the hallmark of master plan communities in the country that has been replicated uh by other ones, other cities and other states, is a great example that people get frustrated, for example, that why are you building 800 new houses next to my single family house, right? 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:10.079 In this tract. 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:16.400 And why are those, you know, so densely house when I'm living living on like 5,000 square foot lot with my single family house? 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.119 It's gonna screw up my traffic, it's gonna impact the schools. 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.640 And I'm gonna go voice my concern to city council. 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.279 City council's probably thinking to themselves, oh, that that plan was approved 30 years ago. 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:28.640 Like that's done. 00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:34.960 You have literally no ability to change anything around you whatsoever that hasn't already been built out. 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:35.440 Yes. 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:36.799 And so that's one side. 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.759 So, you know, kind of switching a little bit gears. 00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:42.640 I mean, I'm thinking of there's a good and a bad to master plan community. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.079 I mean, the good is that it's, you know, typically very clean and organized. 00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:56.319 The bad is you can't often make U-turns or buy a beer at a pub, or there's certain uses and things that have been kind of bred out of it from advance, if we know from the beginning. 00:26:56.559 --> 00:27:05.119 But why is there such a big disparity sometimes between, you know, you drive through, um, try to think of it, but you know, a really nice community. 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:11.759 You read Money Magazine, you'll see that there's, you know, they publish like their top 10 communities to live in in the country, and they're always just beautiful. 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:14.960 There's some really nice one in Iowa, as a matter of fact. 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:22.640 And contrast that with driving through some of our cities, not to pick on it, but I'd say parts of LA are like this. 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:31.599 Oakland is one, parts of uh New York's pretty well put together by and large, but parts of that, you know, any big city, or even take cities in the rest belt. 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.119 And they look like they're a third world in certain parts. 00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:42.640 Why do some cities thrive and some cities look like they're on the on the col on the verge of collapse from a zoning perspective? 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:55.279 There's all sorts of political reasons and everything, but from a zoning perspective, is it safe to say that zoning has utterly failed its police power duties that you mentioned earlier in some of these cities that look like they're, you know, from Mad Max? 00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:07.759 So I I don't know that cities necessarily die from uh one bad decision or uh a few decisions in a in a in quick order. 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:16.480 It's usually uh due to a kind of a building or progressing uh change in the economic environment. 00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:29.680 You can look at Gary, Indiana, which is to this day a great backdrop for an apocalypse movie, um, with like Birmingham, Alabama, which found itself in a very similar situation. 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:36.960 Uh I think it went from three uh maybe six hundred thousand people down to like 120,000 people. 00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:40.160 Now it's up to like 300,000 people. 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:47.119 They they also have some like abandoned, you know, warehouse silo kinds of facilities. 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.880 Some of them they've repurposed into something pretty cool. 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:55.599 You know, I I have to go back to it's that it's that community buy-in. 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:05.279 You know, are people there because they got a job at a at an auto factory and the auto factory closed, and there's nothing else that the city provides. 00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:07.680 Detroit was Detroit during the Great Recession. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:08.079 Right. 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.839 And Detroit's actually an interesting one. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:19.759 That was a large enough city where I really think that the uh civic leaders uh at that time uh should have been making some different decisions. 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:26.640 You know, not every city does today what they were initially established to do. 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:58.960 And so uh you can look at cities like Phoenix and Austin that have gone through some transitions over the years, but have really kind of put a lot of investment in

attracting new businesses, especially technology forward or medical uh related companies, uh doing really advanced work that were that were not what the companies that were in those cities a decade or or two decades or a hundred years ago were doing. 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:06.400 So is that to say that if cities don't adjust with the times, they're at risk of dying? 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:07.440 Absolutely. 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:22.000 You know, there's there's some cities, like maybe uh, I don't know, Pasadena, where they're probably gonna be okay with the economic fluctuations and the comings and goings of certain industries. 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:27.759 Um, just because it's a very desirable place to live. 00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:33.599 And they could probably get away with maintaining their visitor-serving attractions. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:39.200 You get the rose bowl there, and you get the uh rose parade there, and you've got some kind of base. 00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:44.319 Yeah, they they've got they they've got something there that's going to kind of help anchor them. 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:56.160 Every city along the coast in California, uh, especially south of LA, has something that is it is always going to be a draw, and that's the ocean. 00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:01.200 There's just there's there's no way that they're gonna lose that feature. 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:05.839 Even if the coastal erosion, you know, takes away a lot of the beaches. 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:13.680 Uh there the investment I'm I I I know we will reinvest to make sure that those amenities are still available in some fashion. 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:21.359 And if it goes too far, I guess now you've just got a a new line of oceanfront houses, you know, that are a mile in or half a mile in. 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:21.519 Yeah. 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.480 You bought on the other side of the street, we're lucky for you, and now it's okay. 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:25.440 Here you are, yeah. 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:29.200 A lot of cities that don't have those types of natural draws. 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:37.440 Without those, then you're dealing with a a city that needs to remain adaptable and needs to remain flexible. 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:49.359 And so zoning makes a a huge impact when it comes to long-range planning and the what the future of the city is going to be. 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:58.480 Government by its very nature is reactionary, and it's reactionary because it's it's government by the people for the people. 00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:03.680 Well, the people are the ones that make you know changes, right? 00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:09.200 Um, that sway the economy from one way to another, develop new preferences. 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:17.759 It the leaders are in that group, and so it's not until those changes occur that the leaders are going to react. 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:26.559 Either we want more of this, and the business people who are running it say we need

more of this, or people are pissed off about it, we want less of this, we want regulations. 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:27.119 Exactly. 00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:28.480 And so that's a great point. 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:44.240 Yeah, you have this environment where it's going to be reactionary, and so the question is uh how much flexibility do you want to maintain so that you can you can adjust faster to changes in the environment? 00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:51.519 Or um how quickly can you can you adapt when new situations arise? 00:32:51.759 --> 00:33:20.640 And I think that a lot of the cities that have died were cities that when they were powerful, when they were, you know, uh a huge draw, either from industry or or whatever other sectors brought the investment in, they weren't doing the things that cities should be doing to ensure that if something should change drastically, that there's still a reason for people to live there. 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:26.319 You know, great school districts, uh recreational facilities, different kinds of jobs. 00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:40.480 Are we seeing a little bit of this on the much larger international scale with some of these wealthy oil-producing Gulf countries trying to diversify enough oil as countries like the US are trying to move away from oil dependence? 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:40.799 Yeah. 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:41.039 Right. 00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:42.720 And they're like, what else can we bring here? 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:44.720 And so I think of like Detroit. 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:52.880 I mean, Detroit was all about the autos until that became not financially sustainable here because they were getting built cheaper elsewhere. 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.359 And all of a sudden, Detroit, I mean, just imploded. 00:33:55.440 --> 00:34:01.519 And you could buy a block for 10,000 bucks, I remember, in 09, which I wish I had done because now they've actually revitalized. 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:10.559 Uh, Jamestown, New York doesn't get enough uh front page news out there because that used to be the epicenter for furniture in our country. 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:15.679 Well, furniture ended up getting built in Vietnam and India and China and so on. 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:20.159 And so they imploded, but they've actually been revitalizing, which is interesting. 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:22.079 Buffalo, same deal. 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:24.960 I think their population's like at half. 00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:30.800 And then you consider the entire Rust Belt where they used to produce a bunch of steel, and uh, that stuff didn't happen. 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:40.639 And so they either change with the times to see it coming and diversify what keeps people there, which is jobs, um, or they don't and they die. 00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:42.800 And then who knows what happens. 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:48.800 Do cities ever, I mean, we're you you're not using the word death of a city in the in the sense of people moved the heck out of there. 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.559 But I think of a place, a literal ghost town. 00:34:52.719 --> 00:35:10.079 And I what what comes to mind for me is Bodhi, California, yeah, or Calico, which is more of a touristy made, made up ghost town, but Bodhi, California, near Mammoth, on the side of California that no one ever goes to that borders Nevada. 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:14.000 And Bodhi is literally a literally a ghost town. 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.480 I think they have a population of zero. 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:18.079 Have you been there before? 00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:18.639 I have. 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:20.559 And you and they have actual buildings. 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:24.159 You look at their buildings, like it looks like people just left because their stuff is there. 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:25.119 Yeah, right. 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:29.039 What causes the city to literally disappear like that? 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:46.239 In planning, you know, it it's interesting how uh theories uh were developed um uh and relied upon to inform a lot of the urban planning that occurred in the 1950s, 60s, 70s. 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:56.320 It wasn't until academic research really got a hold of um urban planning uh where legitimate studies were conducted uh to determine things. 00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:04.239 One um one such study, or I should say, theory, was about the tipping point. 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:11.679 Um, and it was looking at cities like Compton, which uh was that was established as a sunset town. 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:13.119 What do you mean it's sunset town? 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.519 Sunset towns are uh white only. 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:16.480 Oh, wow. 00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:17.360 Yeah, okay. 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:22.159 Um it was established as a reprieve for uh the white community. 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.800 And it's changed over the years drastically. 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:38.880 Um but the theory that was being discussed um back in the 60s, early 70s was about how uh what is the tipping point? 00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.880 How do cities go from one status to another? 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.599 And and and it could be applied to anything. 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:53.599 In this particular study, they were looking at the racial mix of communities, uh specifically switching from white to uh black. 00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:05.119 In that uh theory, which again, this is you know not based in academic research, they discussed how the appropriate mix of a community is different for different people. 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:14.639 And so it's not like one black family moved into a white neighborhood, and then all of a sudden all of the other white families said, Nope, that's it, we're out of here. 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:24.239 It was that one black family moved in, and one or two other families said, Oh man, there's one black family here, that's too many for me. 00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:40.559 And then they moved out, and then

some other di black families moved in, and then other people whose tipping point was three to five black families is too much, they moved out, and then you just have this slower progression, but there isn't an actual tipping point. 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:51.360 For those cities that you are positing here where they're they are now at zero residence, I think you had a slow out migration. 00:37:51.519 --> 00:38:01.440 Now it may have started with a large portion of the population, but I can almost guarantee you you had people that were there saying, No, no, we're gonna make this town survive. 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:08.639 And you got to these people who who, you know, that when the town was say 50% of its original population, yeah. 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:14.159 You know, you had a few people that said, Oh, this is too small of a town for me now, and they left. 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:15.760 Nobody came in. 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.159 And then you had more people going, oh, there's only 35% of the original town. 00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:21.760 That's too few people for me. 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:30.320 And he just he just becomes a death spiraling down until you had one person, probably the mayor, who said, I have no one to mayor over anymore. 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.000 Yeah, it's of the people, and it's me. 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:34.000 All of my minions evaporated. 00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:34.960 No, that's interesting. 00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:39.599 Yeah, I mean, you lose people, you also lose amenities. 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:41.599 There's no one there to run the business anymore. 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:49.519 So the business shutters, and you know, now you went from a place you could go to buy something, maybe a general store back then or something, and now it is boarded up. 00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:50.239 It's ugly. 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:51.679 No one wants to look at that, right? 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.840 And then you lose maybe police officers and the place isn't as safe, and you lose this or that, and so on. 00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:57.039 Eventually you're out of there. 00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:07.360 Um, I was thinking of myself, not as much as you know, um migration among along racial lines, but more along movement of transportation. 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:09.360 There's so many, there's so many. 00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.760 Anybody's driven across the country has probably seen or asked themselves, why is this town here? 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:17.039 This is in the middle of nowhere, and it's not even a nice looking area. 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:18.159 Why is this town here? 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:21.199 They're not here for the natural forest as next to it or whatever. 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:26.159 It's because a train line was built there and it became a stopping point for some reason or another. 00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.320 Or uh Route 66. 00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.880 How many towns were birthed by Route 66? 00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:38.800 How many towns died because Route 66 was built at a different place and they were located? 00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:41.519 Amboy is uh still going strong. 00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:42.960 I think they have five people that live there. 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:43.599 Amboy? 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:44.159 Amboy. 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:44.639 Amboy. 00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:45.599 Where state is that in? 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.480 If you ever have a chance to go through Amboy, take it. 00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:49.440 In Nevada? 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:50.079 California. 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:51.039 Is that in California? 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:51.519 Wow. 00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:52.960 A little old Amboy. 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:53.199 Okay. 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:55.440 You know, honestly, you know, it's interesting. 00:39:55.519 --> 00:40:07.679 You know, we talk about resources um and and their impact on cities, and uh, you know, how zoning is is designed to um protect that investment, essentially. 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:14.800 But you know, it it's really interesting to see how cities uh form, I'll say more naturally. 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.920 Um, you know, I mentioned Amboy. 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:21.280 I, you know, I'm a huge fan of the Salton Sea. 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:22.559 I just I cannot get enough of that. 00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.559 Yeah, what an interesting land use concept. 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:30.559 Two hours from where I live, and it is two worlds from the one I live in. 00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.679 It is amazing. 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:34.400 I mean, you've got Slab City out there. 00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:46.559 Slab City is along the uh uh military base, it's a no man's land, but they have a library, they have art installations, and they're open and functioning. 00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:47.360 It is open. 00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:47.840 Wow. 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:56.159 And it, you know, they there's not a whole lot of business or stuff to do there, but you can go there and you can check out this little community. 00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:03.920 This is this is what uh you can do when there's absolutely no zoning involved, and it's done. 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.239 Uh I mean, it's it's actually quite impressive. 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:09.119 Now it's it's a bunch of RVs, right? 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:15.360 But they all have their little areas and they've got landscaping and whatever else they can get to grow in the desert. 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:16.880 I mean, it's it's phenomenal. 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:28.400 Salton Sea is an interesting tale of the life and currently death, uh, maybe life support of a city because there is the city of Salton. 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:29.440 What do they call it? 00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:30.320 Salton City or something? 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:30.960 Salton City. 00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:31.920 Salt and City, right? 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:38.239 Now, in the 60s, this used to be the

playground of a Hollywood famous. 00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:43.840 And you go out there and you water ski on this giant sea that's ultra full of salt. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.880 Um, and you have a great time and you're extra bullying, I guess, because of that. 00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:51.199 You go out there now, people who live there, these aren't these aren't people who like other people. 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.519 These are people who move there to be left alone and do things without zoning on their back. 00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:57.920 Yeah, you can get a lot pretty cheap there. 00:41:58.079 --> 00:41:58.880 I bet you can. 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.880 You know, funny story on that. 00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:27.280 Uh my grandpa ended up coming across a little plot of land on Salt and Sea that we I remember going to as a kid and having to wear a uh, I would wear a little like um a diving mask over my face because the the sea was literally littered with dead fish because you know, it evaporates because it's hot as hell out there, and then the salt, you know, content concentrates, all the fish die, and the cycle of life continues. 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:34.159 And he got that from painting someone's uh barn, and the guy couldn't pay him except in this little plot of land. 00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:42.079 And we held on to that thing thinking one day they're gonna declare this place an ecological disaster and the feds are gonna put money into it, and this thing will be worth a bunch. 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:43.119 We thought wrong. 00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:46.639 You know, I don't I don't think that's out of the cards, and I don't mean to we sold it. 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:54.480 So now I I, you know, I don't mean to divert too much, but there are migratory birds that now require the Salton Sea as part of their migration, right? 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:57.039 And so I think there is gonna be some investment in that. 00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.920 I don't know if it's gonna be more than a bird sanctuary. 00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:01.920 Well, you've heard it here first, guys. 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:09.840 If you are interested in a super speculative property purchase or you just want to own a lot of land, Salt and Sea, Salton City is where it's at. 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.079 Buy plastic uh water lines. 00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:14.960 Plastic water lines copper will be removed from your home. 00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:15.760 There you go. 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:17.280 No offense to our friends out there. 00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:20.159 Yeah, but true though, but that's a city though that didn't make it. 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:22.000 Next time on part two. 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:31.199 Does zoning ever save a city that is on the downswing? 00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.400 I will say that it plays an important part. 00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:40.239 There were a lot of Southern California coastal cities that were really dumps in the 1970s. 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:42.000 They were not attractive at all. 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:46.800 And so they started taking on things like historic preservation. 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:48.639 And the city says, you know what? 00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.119 These are part of the charm of this city. 00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:59.760 That's something that just starts to build a little bit of momentum, and 20 years later, you've got, you know, Laguna Beach. 00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:07.599 Thank you for joining us on this journey. 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:13.519 If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rates, and review us wherever you're listening right now. 00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:15.039 Until next time.

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