Full Transcript for Do We Owe Our Parents More Than a Weekly Call?

a huge country and the opportunities are unevenly distributed in terms of where jobs are, where good schools are, and the US in general has this really strong independent individu individualistic ethos. and so most parents want their kids to go on and achieve, want their kids to explore, wants the want their kids to self-actualize. And often that means moving away from where your family is. not not always, but the I would say the the kind of you know, this version of America that's very independent and and very kind of self self-defining has a bit of a you know a negative element of staying close to family and staying in the same place as your family and having that sort of multi-generational engagement. I do think that's something that's probably changed. Since World War II America. Most of my family, both on my mom's side and my dad's side, lived in the same place until my generation. And in my generation, we started to move further and further away. So I don't think it's something that's always been true in America, but it's something that's been increasingly true as opportunities shifted to urban areas, as population centers really solidified, and people moved out of. farming com communities, agricultural communities into professional, professional endeavors. And I think that tie to family is part of what got sacrificed in this, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, go make your way in the world, America. Ksenija: silly question, but do Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: you guys miss each other? Do you find it hard or is it something that's ingrained in you in you from birth to simply be apart and not worry about it too much? Sue: well, I moved out of the house at 14. So I have been calling my mom and my parents on the weekend every day, or every week since I was 14 years old. and I think that you know, certainly I mean I miss my mom. It was really It it was really fun for me to move back to the East Coast in 2017 and actually live near my sister. We're twins, and I hadn't had my birthday with her since I was 17 years old. So that I I would say it becomes the normal in how your relationship operates. And I certainly you miss my sister, miss my mom, but also. It would be very difficult for me to say, okay, Sue, shift your whole adult life that's been on the West Coast, permanently move back to the East Coast and reestablish yourself to be close to your mother or your sister. no, go ahead. Ksenija: But to me it No, it's not just about how often you see each other. I remember when you came to see me in Montenegro and you said, I'm going to call my mom tomorrow. Like we talk, I think you said once a week. And I was shocked. And that was the day when my mom really did call me, I think 50 times, because she was Worried about whether you were fine and you were happy in Montenegro and wanted to make sure everything was perfect. So she kind of overdid it. That is not the norm. But still, to not talk to each other every day, that to us is quite unthinkable. Maybe talking every day is being very close, but once a week sounds like very little. I was recently in The Hague for work. And we had this icebreaker, and I don't know how this topic came up, but this guy from the United States, I think, was bragging to us about how he's such a good son because he calls his mom once a week. And I snapped at him once a week. Call her right now. You should call her every day. You have to call your mom every day. She's not gonna be there forever. So had a whole Sue: So funny. Ksenija: Thing. Yes. And then there was this other lady, she was Canadian, and she said, Hmm, my kids call me once a week. I don't want them to call more often. And I was just, What is wrong with you Sue: too funny. Ksenija: people? It's your kid. How can you I my kids, they're in the house and they're always in their rooms doing their thing. And I swear to you, Sue, I miss them. I miss them from when they were little, and they would, I was their whole world, and they would just cuddle with me now they're teenagers and I have to negotiate for every cuddle and every kiss. I'm not beyond blackmail and all that, that nothing is beneath me. But I mean how how does one I I I'll never get it. How does one just get to this point where it's good being a good son and a good daughter to just call once a week? What happens to her the rest of the week? Sue: She's with her partner, she's with her friends, she's doing her activities. You'll appreciate this because yesterday, you know, so I called my mom when I got back from Ecuador and had a lovely chat with her. And then at about 11 o'clock yesterday morning, I saw a missed call from my mom. I was on on the phone with an with someone else. And so I immediately called her back. I'm like, everything okay? Because she never calls me, I always call her. And then she said, No, it was just a miss dial. And she said, I also accidentally called your sister this morning. And she did the exact same thing and called me right away and said, Mom, you never call. Is everything okay? So you know, I think some of it is the pattern that you get used to Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: with with your family and the relationship. Yeah, so I I you know, I certainly miss my mom and we had a wonderful time this year when we we took a two-week trip together, which is probably the most time we've spent together in in decades. And that was absolutely wonderful. But it was also great for me that I didn't have to be the whole center for her. There were a number of other people on the trip. She made new friends. There were lots of activities. so you know, for me partly there's this intensity of like, my God, you know What would I talk about with my mom every day if I if I called her every day? Once a week you kind of store up all the stories and you check in and and make sure that everything's all right. I think she'd find it maybe a little tedious if I called her every day. Maybe I'll run an experiment. So I'll run an experiment

next week and see. Ksenija: In night doesn't have to be a call, but at least exchanging messages, things like that. It for us it's j Sue: yeah, we do we do chat. Ksenija: it's normal to be in touch daily, Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: you know, whether it's a call or it's messages that's being pedantic, but yeah, to just be in touch. And did it bother you at all that they sold the house like that, that nobody even offered to take over that house, to move there, sell their own? I currently live And I inherited the house that my grandparents built in the countryside. It is the place they originate from, both of them. And one of the reasons why I asked to inherit this house was because I didn't want it to get sold. No Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: one else was interested in living here, and I really wanted to salvage it. the thought of how much love and how much effort they put into this house and The mere idea of strangers being here and touching everything and not taking care of it maybe the way they would have or I would have was unbearable to me and the ease with which these descendants gave up on this house like it was nothing made me think wow that's so ungrateful and that's so harsh and cruel I can't tell. When my grandma was dying, I I had I was blessed to have my grandma until two or three years ago. And when she was very sick at the end, she didn't really know where she was. And we were Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: talking to my mom about maybe putting her in a nursing home where she would have round the clock care. And my mom was actually putting herself in debt to have people take care of her at home because she couldn't fathom. Moving my grandma out of her house, my grandma's house after all those decades, and having her pass in a strange place that has no memories related to any of us, to anything from her life, to just go among unfamiliar people in an unfamiliar spot and and be there and wait for us to come visit. That is The approach that's closer to me, that I think is more Mediterranean, more Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: Balkan, Italian, Spanish, just this intergenerational connection and definitely a feeling of debt towards these people who raised us, who then help their children raise their children, and who have been present the whole time and have been quite formidable through thick and thin. And now that they are weak and they are in need, we just ship them off. And like I said, this idea of getting somebody out of their house at the end it sounds terrible to me. Did you did Sue: Yeah. It's it's a Ksenija: I'm sorry, did you like did that even that aspect of the novel and that moment did it even register with you as something harsh and cruel or was it normal? Sue: I ha I certainly didn't have the reaction to it you did. I found it more strange that everybody was living with Red in the house. and then all of a sudden everybody disappeared. Danny disappeared, you know, the adoptive son and his family disappeared. And so I found it really. Puzzling in the story

progression that it went from the house is full and everyone's there and everyone's taking care of him to all of a sudden they're selling the house. So it was less the prospect of of selling the house. I think part of it too is Older houses are a lot of work. I could certainly see how a family might not want to inherit a huge house that needs a lot of work, even if it was something in the family. that you know, that is understandable to me in terms of Ksenija: But can't you just wait for him to die and then do it? Sue: you could, but there's also the element of then you know, the one of the kids or one of the families does need to commit to stay. And that to me was part of the perplexing part of the book is why were they all there and then all left? That didn't make sense to me, but I didn't see that as I just saw that as a a f a decision. that didn't make sense to me in terms of how the story was progressing because it seemed as if they were ready to stay there and take care of him and had kind of set that all up. And then the dynamics with Denny sort of disrupted that. but Ksenija: It was because he became widowed. Sue: Well Ksenija: Because he was alone now. Wasn't that why they moved away? Sue: I I would say that what puzzled me was why why everybody was so gung ho to take care of them at the you know at the beginning and then was willing to, you know, and then everybody moved back, moved back into their house, didn't, you know, didn't sell their house. I would think a young family with the opportunity for a big house would have wanted to stay. And so it was less that it made sense culturally or not, and more that it didn't make a lot of sense in the context of the book. Ksenija: Plot wise. Sue: But I would say here, like certainly It's you I I don't know quite how to express it, but there aren't a lot of parents I know that would want their children to put their lives on hold to come take care of them. and most You know, let's face it, most women do the caretaking. And so they would be the ones who would have to put their careers on hold or figure out, you know, we call it the sandwich generation here, where you're between taking care of your kids and taking care of your parents, and you're sandwiched in the middle trying to do both. and so I could see how in You know, in many families, that's that's just not workable. You know, when my dad was ill, we did hire a full time caretaker and they lived in the house and took care of my dad. But, you know, the house that we had lived in in Pennsylvania was an 1800s farmhouse with stairs everywhere, and my dad was wheelchair about. Like it just there was no way to make a house like that into somewhere he could be. I think when I look at red, part of it is just the you know the social isolation and kind of working through the day to day and sometimes that is provided by family. And sometimes here it's actually the more of a community if you move into, I would say, a great senior living facility that

has a lot of activities and a lot of energy and a lot of people. I think it's harder for men than women. I think women throughout their lives tend to be a little more social. So I would worry about someone like Red becoming isolated, even if he moves into a community, and maybe there's an argument there that the family should have taken care of him, but you know, sometimes you don't have kids. Sometimes you don't have the wherewithal to provide the level of support. and it's but I didn't have that visceral reaction that like somebody should have moved in and taken care of him. that that wasn't something that was an expectation for me of how the book would would wind down. Ksenija: I don't know, I'm I'm very sensitive when it comes to the elderly and because my grandparents really were there for me throughout their Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: life, as long as I was there and they were wonderful. My favorite memories of childhood are related to them. I feel a huge responsibility toward them. I have up here on the shelf the photo of my two grandfathers. Actually I'm going to show them weights. when they were younger. So here are my Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: two grandfathers, and this one built this house on grandma's land. My grandma was a grand beauty. So yeah, I did not expect to show these, otherwise I would have had them ready. But yes, these were my grandfathers. And what I want to say is that First of all, there is the feeling of debt, but to me there are two aspects of this, as I mentioned already. One is the fact that nobody worries about what it will do to him to leave this house after all these decades. So Sue: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ksenija: nobody even makes the effort of ensuring that he can stay, even though they had all moved in when they thought it was appropriate to move in. That was one aspect. And then the second one was how easily. They let go of a house that's been there for generations and that mattered so much to their ancestors. And while the second one, I can understand, because it is, after all, a house and you make a home somewhere else. it felt a bit cold. J just that nobody even thought, how bad to be leaving this place. how many memories? It was mainly let's get that out of here and let's sell this thing. That's how it felt. too cold. But just this thing of not giving him the dignity of dying at home. Now, of course there are situations when where it's much better to put a person in a home because either the dementia is so terrible that the person is a danger Sue: In Ksenija: to themselves or to others. Or the person has such a a physical condition that they need round-the-clock care. And taking care of them like that would seriously mean somebody dedicating their entire life to playing nurse. Some people cannot afford to maintain an elderly, gravely ill person in the house. But this didn't seem the case with this family, which Sue: Yeah. Yeah. Ksenija: is why I felt so viscerally about it. it I don't know, it it it felt like a lack of

bond that didn't make sense to me from page one and Danny's behavior. Danny is the favorite son who just disappears for years at an end. And that happens here too, of course it does. All kinds of stuff happens in families. But usually when a child goes away and doesn't call for months and for years, that's because there is a really big problem within the family. Something terrible happened. This child was abused. This here is just, well, that's Danny. That's what he's like. They don't know he graduated college. They don't know what's happening with his daughter. They don't know where she lives, what she does. Doesn't make sense to me. Sue: Yeah, I agree. That was really puzzling to me in the book. I don't know many people who have that sort of finan you know, filial kind of relationship. I will say when I when I see people stepping out of their family, it's much more like what you're saying. There's a a fraught relationship. There's a real problem Ksenija: Something went wrong. Sue: in the family dynamic where somebody says, I'm just not gonna be in touch with my father anymore, or you know, I can't stand my siblings or or whatever it is, but there's something in the dynamic that's really obvious. whereas you don't get the sense through the book that the kids were treated incredibly differently, other than Denny just got a lot of the attention because of how he was acting and acting out, and that sort of thing. So I would say that's not a very normal family dynamic at all in terms of a a prodigal son going away, coming back, going away again, and then the lack of interest in His life. I will say a lot of the characters came across to me as very self-focused, which probably we all are. But I think that got in the way of their relationships. And I'm also curious, kind of coming back to the house, like, did the kids have the kind of experience in the house that made them want? To stay, want to hold on to it. They they clearly did not have the same level of connection to this house that Red did at all. certainly not Red's father. and I wonder if, in a way, the house almost represented love they didn't get in their family because their father was so obsessed with the house that maybe it had. a negative element to them in terms of not wanting to be in the house and that, you know, the fact it needed Ksenija: Exactly. Sue: air conditioning and updating and all of those things just represented in a way that a a past they didn't want to continue to be a part of and that they wanted a more modern future that was disentangled from this place, this house, these complicated family dynamics. Ksenija: I had accidentally muted myself, but I'm I think I'm back. Yeah, I'm back. I wouldn't want it to sound like I'm romanticizing how we do things over here. Because our intergenerational connection that is so strong has its very negative sides. And those negative sides are something I dedicated my entire last novel. Well, let me model it. My my entire last novel two,

which is Fathers Before Sons, and as the title says, there is this anomaly that happens with our kind of connection, where the parents give everything to the children, and that's understood. Then when the parents are old, we are to give everything to them, but there is this in-between phase that lasts. For quite a while, and is especially Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: important in the 20s and early 30s, where we are adults, but we still heavily depend economically on our parents because this is not a country where, after 20 years of sanct 10 years of sanctions and all the problems we've had, it's not a country where you become financially independent very quickly. It's the same in Italy when they ask how come people get married so late in Italy because they can't afford it. That's why they get married so late. They cannot afford it. They live at home until they get married. And they do it here too, until and sometimes when they get married, they all move in together. the problem is that in the 20s and the 30s, when there is still this financial influence and help from the parents, there is also a huge input and a huge control. That's exercised by them. And there is the opposite of what you have in your culture of wanting your children to be as independent as possible. Here, any parent you will ask will tell you that of course they want their child to be successful and an independent thinker. But then everything they do goes to show the opposite. Sue: Hmm. Ksenija: This story, this example of a person from here who really wanted to study art history and was deeply in love with art history. The father was a famous jurist. I don't know whether he was a judge or a lawyer, and he wanted his son to also be a lawyer. So his son had to go to law school. Law school here is not postgraduate, nowhere I think in Europe, maybe England, you do four years of law school and then you have your bar exam. And you're a lawyer. The bar exam is super tough, but and then you're a lawyer. And he did four years of law school, straight A's, graduated, came home with the diploma, gave it to his father, said, This is for you, what you wanted, then went and went to art school for another four years. Now I'm going to do what I want. It's an outlier as an example. People usually just Either do their own thing or they conform to their parents' wishes. But I think it this extreme example illustrates the absurdity of how we tend to do things here. And it is my conclusion that both your model, not yours personally, but from your culture and ours, that they're two extremes and that. There should be a middle road that's more humane towards Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: the elderly when they are at their weakest, but at the same time that does not turn their children into slaves of their disease, of their old age, and that allows the generations that come after us to have a healthy dose of independence that does not mean complete estrangement. And we see each other only at New Year's or Christmas or whatever. Sue: Yeah, I think there I I haven't lived in Singapore, but I've heard that they have in cent financial incentives. Obviously it's a s a small country, lots of high rises. but they have financial incentives if you buy a unit for your parents in the same building where you live. So it it feels like I mean, this is certainly a universal challenge. It's not a Balkans challenge or a US challenge. It's it's a universal Ksenija: Course. Of course. Sue: a universal problem. But I think it's also interesting to look at how how do other cultures try to keep those, keep that fabric together of the family when the incentive for a kid would be to to let me you know let me go to university, let me do postgraduate if necessary, establish my career, which is almost always going to be somewhere other than when their par where their parents live. And so how can you create a way that makes it easy to to keep that family family unit together? It's I Ksenija: But come on, Sue, I mean, in the digital age it's so easy to be in touch. I understand thirty years ago or forty years ago w when we had to write letters and make a phone call on the landline, but what's the excuse today to to not just check in and and Ask what are you up to? You know, maybe they're lonely, maybe chat Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: a little bit or talk a little bit or do a video call. I don't know. I don't I don't get it. Sue: Yeah, I think there's a you know, there's a difference between the communication and the living together and keeping the family unit together and multi general generational living. I don't see those as the same. Ksenija: But it feels like your culture lags both. Sue: don't I don't know that I entirely agree with you on that. It certainly does lack the multi-generational living or certainly amongst people who live in the cities where a lot of the work is. That's definitely true. Although I will say during COVID, a lot of people took that as an opportunity to move remote and move maybe back to where they grew up. I had a lot of friends do that and take advantage of the technology. I think there's I you know I I I think there's just a different expectation. So Like I said, with you with my mom, I don't think she's sitting by the phone waiting for me to check in every day and see how she's doing. If I started to check in on her every day, she might be like, Are you worried about me? What's going on? Why the change in behavior? Ksenija: Leave me alone. But that's also a big difference though. Yeah, that's also a big difference cultural because and there I envy you guys so much because people well, first of all, you all make much more money than we do over here. So when people retire, many of them get to retire with a nice amount of money in the bank and they wait to retire to finally travel the world to finally Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: do many things. People here retire and the the pension is ridiculously low. Ridiculously like 500 Sue: Really. Ksenija: euros a month, 400 euros a

month. You've seen the prices here. just they can't afford anything and There seems to be this belief that old age is about becoming a free babysitter for your grandchildren. Sue: Mm. Ksenija: And w when I was preparing this episode, I kept thinking, is it all in reality just transactional? In a way? I'm gonna raise my grandchildren this way when it's time for me to be taken care of. You don't Put me out of my house and just there's constantly this feeling of debt that you have to repay. Is Sue: Yeah. Yeah. Ksenija: it a transaction in the end? And maybe in your culture it's a different transaction because the transaction is independence, mutual independence, like you say. Your mom sees her friends and travels and does her thing. My grandma was home after she retired. She was Sue: Yeah. Yeah. Ksenija: just home. Sue: And I you know, I think that it it's it's an interesting area because like I look at my grandfather, so my grandfather lived in '99. Some his whole adult life, he'd always had a vacation home in the Caribbean. And somewhere in his 80s, he just picked up and moved to this little island called St. Croix. And so, you know, the Challenge for my mom and her brothers was none of them could move to a tiny Caribbean island to take care of my grandfather. He was pretty self-sufficient for a while, but then he started to need some care. And there's not a lot of medical infrastructure there. So my mom and her brothers kept trying to hire nurses to come in and check in on him, you know, make sure he was eating, drive him to appointments, and he kept firing them. And then when you know hello Boston. Ksenija: It's okay. We love them. Sue: When you know he finally Ksenija: If you're listening and not watching, one of Sue's gorgeous cats just walked in. Sue: All right. And so finally, when he got to the point where he he really needed a lot more care, you know, the neighbors were just terrible to my mom, like expecting her to pick up her whole life and move down to the Caribbean. And she's like, I didn't choose this. You know, I'm in Philly where my grandfather used to be, and I can't uproot my whole life to relocate to where he is. And so, you know, I've seen this struggle of my mom. And her brothers trying to provide the right level of care for my grandfather. My grandfather being entirely independent and kind of thinking well into his 90s, he could be self-sufficient on this little island in the Caribbean. And ultimately, you know, as you can expect, it didn't end terribly well. You know, my grandfather had an accident and you know, and and never recovered. And so Ksenija: Mm. Sue: That I I would say the independence I see goes both ways sometimes. Like the elderly people in my family, a lot of them did want to stay in their homes, but also refused help, whether it was help from a nurse Ksenija: That can happen, sure. Sue: help from the family. And that you know, that creates not only the debt but also the guilt on top of it too, which I think is

i is really difficult. but as you know, I'm curious with the states as the economy is changing and things like Social Security are becoming unfunded or definitely w underfunded, corporate pensions are going away, so people have to self-fund their retirement. I wouldn't be Ksenija: No universal health care. Sue: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if in another ten to twenty-five years we have a situation where whether people want to or not, it's just a an absolute economic necessity to kind of have multi-generational living and and families moving back in together. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Ksenija: Also because young people can no longer afford to buy a home. It's unaffordable. So of course you you have to rely on your parents. You're getting to where we are currently. Sue: Yeah. There's an interesting experiment going on. There's a a gentleman, Chip Conley, he's a a really astute businessman, ran a chain of hotels. He's always been in the hospitality arena and he started this thing called the Modern Elder Academy. And it's helping to coach people kind of from midlife on. Like what's w what do you do with the rest of your life once you've hit that pinnacle of your career and all of those things you should do? But one of the things he's experimenting with is buying small houses so that older people can live together. Who don't live with their family, but create a sense of community. So do you did you know the US TV show The Golden Girls? Okay. Betty Ksenija: I only know of it, but I've never watched it. It's Betty White, right? Sue: White, yeah. So it's four older women who live together. And so the he's kind of creating this concept to see if it flies, because there are a lot of people in this phase of They're older, they want community, they're not close to their families, or maybe they didn't have families. and they Want independence, but they need some support. And financially it's hard for them to live on their own. So I'm so curious how this is going to play out. And maybe if multi-generational family living isn't the key here in the US, maybe it's a lateral where you start to build independent communities of like-minded women and men who want to cohabitate, not necessarily romantically, but share the financial elements and the support elements and continue to maintain their independence. So I yeah. Ksenija: There's an amazing movie about this. I love British comedy. I love British comedy. And this is with Dev Patel. You know the actor from Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: Slum Dog Millionaire, and then just all the great English actors, from Dame Judy Denge to the rest of them. They're all there. And so Dev Patel's character. opens a hotel in India for the elderly to come and live in until their death to, you know, form a community of this kind. The problem is that in his endless enthusiasm and truly the best intention of making this work, he sort of oversells the readiness of the hotel to take in the first guests when they arrive. They find a lot of enthusiasm

from this wonderful, wonderful kid, but things are not as rosy as they seem. It is one of the funniest, beautiful, and most humane movies I've ever seen. They actually made a part two, also. It's beautiful, like I recommend it to anyone who can find it, can access it. It's so much fun. So that that sounded like something I I could see myself leaving my home for in my old age. But so direct question. What do we owe the people who loved us first? Sue: I think we owe them an open conversation about what they want and what we can do. What where I see some of the danger is when there are assumptions being made, like I want to live in my house until I'm 102 and I you know, maybe the child's not prepared for that. One of the things I value with my mom is we try to have pretty honest conversations about how she's doing health wise, where she wants to be living, what you know, what that situation looks like. because it's certainly easier to have those conversations while you're well everybody's in good health and it isn't an emergency. And it's a lot harder when there's an emergency. So I would say maybe it sounds very clinical, but I think we owe each other honesty and openness and trying to have a discussion about the end of life that is something we can both support and feel good about. I I think it's dangerous when there are assumptions made and nobody's clear about what those are. so that I don't I think if my mom really needed to live with me, I would find a way. It would be hard in my house. but that you know, and same with with Ksenija: Okay, Sue: my in laws. Like if that was a necessity, we would figure out how to make that happen. But that might or might not be what they ultimately wanted. So I think understanding that is probably the most important thing. And then trying to navigate through if it's something that's really hard to, you know, let's say for me to accommodate my mom's wishes or my husband's parents' wishes and try to find a way through. But I don't Ksenija: Yes. Sue: know that it's an automatic, like I owe them 247 care for the rest of their lives in my house. Like I don't I don't think that that's a default setting for for me. What about you? Ksenija: I think we owe our elders patience, tolerance. Obviously, if the relationship is at least a little bit normal and nothing awful Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: happened in the past to to make this relationship impossible. but yes, I think we owe them a lot of emotional support. Like I said, patience, because sometimes they act like children. Sometimes they will call fifty times. Sometimes they will be irrational. the most painful thing for me with my grandma was my mom had me very young. So we had a bit of askewed how can I say this, hierarchy generational because my mom was more like my older sister and my grandma was more like my mom. So in that sense there was a disbalance, not a negative one, but it was objective objectively a disbalance. the hardest thing for me was to see her go from a formidable woman. If you think I'm strong, I'm nothing compared to what she was. It's incredible the the the strength, the vigor the the the intelligence, the clarity of mind this woman possessed, and to see her. regress to something akin to childhood within an old woman's body was heartbreaking for me. So when her dementia kicked in for me it was very much a matter of being patient, trying to be there as much as I could. But there was a moment later where I could no longer emotionally stand to be there. And I found myself avoiding visiting her a little bit. I would go, but I would also avoid because I would come, I would be there, she wouldn't even know I was there, and I would go away crying for an hour because I couldn't stand seeing her like that. It's incredibly painful. But at the same time, my mom set me down at one point and said, even if she doesn't know, you owe it to her to show up and to come see her and to sit next to her. Even it's for if it's for five minutes and you owe it to yourself because you're going to feel guilty one day for that. She was so right. Sue: Mm. Ksenija: She was really right because I do feel guilty for every time I didn't go. So because you know, when you grow up, your children, when they're small, they love you. You are their whole world. And they are biologically predisposed to love you forever. Sue: There's Ksenija: I always tell the story of a child when I used to go to the home for children without parental care where Maya, my goddaughter, came from, Jeff's daughter. And there was this child that had been severely abused. He was there with two siblings. They took them away from their parents, then gave them back to these parents. There were two of them, then three of them were taken away. And I remember when I came, I used to go there every weekend. This child had pieces of his leg missing, like chunks of meat missing from his legs. And we would sit there and we would play. There was this bus, and I would ask him, Halil, where are we gonna go? Are we gonna go on the bus? You're driving the bus. And I tell him, who are we gonna take on the bus? He says, You sit next to me and my sister goes there, my other sister goes there, da da. And then I say, and where are we gonna go? And he says to see Daddy. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's a child's love for an adult. However, when children grow up, once they hit puberty, once they get older, everything else matters more. You are taken for granted and it's okay. It's normal for you to be taken for granted, but it hurts a little bit. But it's normal, it's part of life. to me, marriage is hard also, and you you cannot call that. You cannot call a marriage or that kind of love unconditional love. It's not Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: unconditional in that way. the only purely unconditional love that I felt where I could be at my worst and I could do the wrongest thing in the world, that was my grandparents. And to that kind of love I owe a lot and I do owe that kind of devotion.

And it's why I'm holding on to this house for dear life. It's also a beautiful house and I love it. But still, why you know when when we go abroad and there's always talk of should we rent it out? Because it's a great house and people could live here, we could make money. And then I'm like, yeah, but you know, this is the bathroom grandpa built, and that's you know, he they work. What if these people don't take care of it like they should? What if they cut her roses? What if they cut her hydrangea bush? What if they don't care take care of his vine? J it that's how my brain works in relation to this topic. Sue: yeah, I g I could definitely see that the you know it's even when we were living abroad, I didn't want to rent out our house to other people that I didn't know we had friends stay here because same thing, like are they gonna take care of it? Will they care for it the way I care for it? And obviously you have so much more history tied up in that. Than even I do with this house that we've been in for 25 years, and I still feel that way. But it's I would say you have a beautiful relationship with your family that also causes the reciprocity for wanting to, you know, wanting to take care of your grandparents and and wanting to take care of the home. I don't know that everybody builds that sort of relationship with their family. And I do see situations where people are taking care of relatives out of a an intense feeling of obligation, but not so much out of out of love. And yeah. Yeah. Ksenija: There is a lot of that in my culture, of course. It's normal. It's normal. Sue: I think that you know that is very hard. But then there's also it's really easy, I think, to make a child feel guilty about. what they're doing or not doing and there could always be more done and and all of those sorts of things. It's it it's tough when you Ksenija: Mm. Sue: put together the family relationships with what needs to happen, with what you can do, with how do you keep your own life in there. And, you know, maybe back to the book. it was interesting for me how my sympathies changed with the different characters as more of their stories came out over the course of the book. I thought that was one of the things that she did really beautifully was you start with one set of assumptions about a character and then your worldview of them develops and changes. Ksenija: my god, the grandparents? Sue: Yeah. Yeah. No. Ksenija: That we're not going to spoil for you, listener, but wow, that was yeah. Sue: Wow. Yep. Yeah. So the it and even Ksenija: Cause first you jump to to judge one of them, but then when you hear the other side of the story, you say, Okay. Not so clear cut, especially at that time, but wow. Sue: Yeah, and I I I think it was masterful how you she took these people who almost became caricatures or icons, or I don't know what words you want to use to describe them, and then filled in the human backstory. And you see them as you know, flawed, normal, or maybe

not so normal people. There's some quite eccentric people in the book. but you get a a richer view on them that makes some of the choices much more much more difficult and yeah. Ksenija: she can write. she can write. You may not like domestic fiction. It may be something you find boring because not much happens, but that woman can write. Wow. I was she knows how to be funny. No, actually I have one final thought. I Sue: Okay. Ksenija: I keep thinking my kids so I want them to be independent. I want them to have their own life. And I know Every parent out here wishes to never be a burden on their children. It usually ends up being because of the financial and the like the whole thing we talked about. But I just really hope that in my own age, they're not going to just say, ship her off to a nursing home, sell, throw her stuff away, and who cares? You know, in Whistler by Anne Patchett, the protagonist, Daphne's husband. his mom passes and he and his sister go to her house. His mom is 90 something, and they're trying to clear this house out, and this woman kept everything. the father died decades ago and she had all his stuff there. She had all the report cards, she kept everything. So the protagonist says this that the sister has the right idea to just sell everything that can be sold and chug the rest into the garbage. And I'm thinking all my art, all my art supplies, my stationery, my fountain pens, my journals, my books, my library. Imagine if someone just threw that out and who cares because she's old and doesn't need it anymore. And like, I sure hope they don't do that. And kids, if you ever watch this, just please keep in mind that if you do this, I'm going to haunt you from beyond. Okay? Sue: So are you saying do that while you're still alive or after you've passed? Ksenija: That I'm gonna haunt them? Sue: No, no, no, no. That if they if they get rid of your things while you're still alive or is it after you've passed? Okay. Yeah. Ksenija: That would be awful while I'm still alive. That's crazy. And and you know, once I'm dead, yeah, okay, it makes more sense. But I sure hope it's not going to be sell whatever can be sold and then chug the rest into the garbage. That there is gonna be a little bit of going through this stuff and saying, mom cared about this so much. I'm going to keep this. I'm going to put her art journals on my shelf. And you know, I'm going to keep her books or her manuscripts. I'm not going to just get rid of everything like she never existed. So I want them to be a little nostalgic about me. Thank you very much. Sue: I will say my mom has gotten less and less nostalgic as the years have gone on. So my great aunt sounds very much like the character from Whistler. When my great aunt passed, I think my mom cleaned out nine dumpsters worth of stuff from the house. And so Ksenija: Wow. Sue: my mom went the other way, and she's basically gotten rid of so many things, and she's you know she's given us things that we want kind

of while we're still alive to enjoy them but it's funny for me because I feel like she has less and less attachment to things the older older she gets and I certainly have nostalgia around certain things of hers and and family things that I remember. But if but it was it was Ksenija: I think. Sue: like a switch flipped. in her after my great aunt died and she thought I don't want to leave this burden for my kids. Like I will clear everything out and you know and then they can decide what to do with what's next. So it's it's been interesting because she she probably cares or or I worry sometimes like Would it bother her if I sold this table or got rid of this piece of furniture from Ksenija: Mm-hmm. Sue: the house? She doesn't care at all. Totally fine with that. Ksenija: I remember my grandpa, like his last years and we were here in in this house during the summer. So just imagine my grandpa, wife, two daughters, three granddaughters. My my br one brother wasn't there at the time. And all of us women, I don't know if we were arguing about something or we were just trying to prepare a meal, but w we were all in movement and he's just sitting there and sitting there and sitting there. And I said at one point, Grandpa. I have the impression you are so bored of everyone and everything and he said Yes I am you know Yeah like Sue: it's exhausting to have you all here. Ksenija: Exactly. All right. So to finish this off, what are you reading this week or what have you been reading? You're back from Ecuador. So what's up? Sue: Yeah, so I decided to try a different genre. So that's that's been interesting, but I it's not true crime, but it's a thriller, Ksenija: Mm. Sue: kind of crime thriller, and it's called Heather by Caitlin Mullen. And so it's it revolves around kind of a a small town and a a lot of intertwined family of the this woman who's now the chief of police and she starts investigating a cold case and it's it's just very cold C-O-L-D. So one Ksenija: Cold or colt? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Sue: that was kind of closed but not really resolved. and she is noticing things about the case That didn't come to light. And the deeper she's digging, the more bones keep getting unearthed. so it's it's intriguing. It's definitely a page turner, and I would say has a complexity to it that I don't read a lot of crime fiction, so maybe there's more complex, interesting you know, crime fiction out there that I just haven't discovered. but I would say it has some some beautiful sensibilities and when I thought I knew where it was going, it actually headed in a pretty different direction. So I'm enjoying that so far. What about you? What what are you reading? Ksenija: So while you were climbing mountains, I finished a few books and among them was Yesteryear. Yes, Sue: you did read it. Ksenija: I thought I'd surprise you with that. I read it. And when it comes to yesteryear, I have to tell you, I did not love it. I found it very interesting. I found the premise interesting. And while I thought that it was okay how she resolved things. So the part that bothered you didn't bother me so much. I Sue: Didn't other you? Interesting. Ksenija: felt that it was a huge missed opportunity because she was the author was so busy trying to make a point that she forgot to let these characters develop. Sue: Breathe. Ksenija: And she was so busy trying to form this unreliable narrator in order to trick us and shock us at the end that she didn't give her room to grow in any way. she which doesn't mean that she had to grow and become a wonderful person, but the only internal conflict she had was between what she was displaying in public and what she really thought about people and situations. So I felt that there was no internal conflict between what she wants and what you know, having the wrong goal and pursuing the wrong goal, and then having an aha moment where you say, I was pursuing the wrong goal the whole time. This is the right one. I felt all of that fail to happen, not only for the protagonist, but also the people surrounding her. So it was for that reason that I did not love that book. Sue: Mm, yeah. Ksenija: But I did read it. And now I am finally started Pachinko. So I am very excited about that because the sequel is coming out in September. So I need to be ready for the sequel. Sue: interesting. Well, I've been kind Ksenija: Yes. Sue: of figuring out what's next on on the book lists for me. So one of the ones I I I hate it when this happens. Like you find out about a book and then you find out that it's like the third in a series. And I'm like, Ksenija: Yes. Sue: all right, well, do I read the third or do I figure out what the first one is and go back? So the one that that came across my my radar is I'll take the fire by Leila Solmani. And it intrigued me because Ksenija: I'm not familiar with that. Sue: so it It hit on some of the points that you and I have talked about, about immigration, about being Ksenija: Mm. Sue: in an other place. And so when I was reading the description of it, I was like, this. you know, this hits on all a lot of the points that we've been just debating in life about what's going Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: on in our world. and then it sounded like in reading the the summary that it's the third installment, I thought, do I and now I have to go back and find these other two and maybe start at the beginning because otherwise often the third doesn't make sense because you there's so much history that came before. So that that one intrigued me. There's another one yeah I'm finding Kind of kin plot lines to some of the things we've talked about. Have you heard about The Life of by Rachel Kusk? Okay. This is it's all Ksenija: Neither the title nor the author. Sue: right. I I think she may be a new author actually, but it it's getting a lot of interest because it's a like a fictional biographical portrayal of a woman writer who writes a story about a famous actress. And so there's a little bit of a frison of interest that the in this book might actually be a representation of Natalie Portman, who the author happens to know. So that one has a buzziness to it that I think is is kind of fun. but it's a it it's one of those metafiction concepts where she's writing about somebody who she doesn't know terribly well, and then she's writing what their inner story is when she clearly doesn't know that. So it it also seemed like a book that has touched upon some of our recent discussions about fame Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: and social media and the role of women and all of these things. So that's another one that that I'm thinking of picking up and and putting on my to read list for the next, you know, mountains I'm gonna go climb. Ksenija: In Oc October or November, October, Barbara King Solver's new book is coming out. So I am yeah, we're gonna definitely Sue: well that that we'll have to both read. Hopefully it will be a little more like the Lacuna and a little bit less like Demon Copperhead. Ksenija: Yeah, it doesn't have as many pages as Demon, so we're going to be it's going to be a little less it's gonna take a little less time to read than that. Alrighty. Well, I loved talking about this subject with you . guys, thank you for sticking with us until the end. like us, subscribe, recommend us to your friends. You can find show notes and other things on Substack. We're starting to write. I'm actually starting to write a little more there. I'm expecting Sue to join in soon. Sue: Absolutely. Ksenija: And so see you next Saturday with a brand new topic. Thank you for sticking around. Love you. Bye. Sue: Okay.