“Chaos Monkeys” author and Wired contributing writer Antonio García-Martínez talks with Recode’s Kara Swisher about his early-2010s stint at Facebook, where he helped develop the ad-targeting technologies that have landed the company in trouble in recent months. He evaluates how Facebook is dealing with a string of public controversies that culminated in CEO Mark Zuckerberg testifying before Congress, but argues that “most people don’t care about privacy” and that the company isn’t in any danger of going away despite the backlash. García-Martínez also talks about some common misconceptions about Facebook ads, why Google hasn’t been criticized as much for the same practices, and why the history of media suggests we could be in for decades of “fake news.”

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00:00:47who used to work at Facebook Antonio Garcia Martinez he used to run Facebook ads targeting team and wrote a book about what he did there called chaos monkeys which I really enjoy he's quite a good writer Antonia welcome to too embarrassed to ask thank you for having and
00:01:00we've also been arguing online right on the Twitter on the Twitter so it's perfect so you written into it a lot about this book since you left the company %HESITATION which was too many years ago several years ago fiat three for years but first I'm what you did
00:01:14there and how long you worked there right three theories are sort of misadventures I ended up there in two thousand eleven a year before the IPO and the reason why that that area is still you know it was awhile ago but it's still relevant that's when faced with
00:01:27greater most of its money to their products didn't really ship anything that major since then everything it's in use now custom audiences look alike all the weird retargeting the pair shoes if all you want to face but that was all created them and so I was kind of
00:01:39there at the present at the creation to that and I randomly ended up as a product manager for the ads targeting team up before to those eleven believe it or not face but didn't actually have a coherent right right on that do you think it's your fault the
00:01:51whole thing I'd like to claim that it's partially my fault so to talk about what that is specifically for the sort of the lay person it is that you're obviously a sophisticated group of people listening to the talk about what that meant what do they morph into yes
00:02:06so there's a lot of fallacies people have when they think about face one of them is you know Facebook Isherwood journalistic right is that the way you put it all I wouldn't put it that now that I'm a journalist have to be nice to my co workers %HESITATION
00:02:19facebooka show me an ad for that's really not true ads are kind of the pay messaging platform the way that you're actually getting targeted the smart targeting is what's called customized into which is a an oddly Orwellian name I didn't actually come up with that yeah the idea
00:02:32here what actually happens the outside world whether it be you know offline stores like target Walmart whatever online Zappos Amazon you name it have lots of data about you things that you've bought %HESITATION and they also have what's called the I personally identifiable information your name your phone
00:02:46number your email they want to reach you reach out and touch you online somehow write your message your Walmart for example or you have you have a safe we discount card is another example and those advertisers effectively go to Facebook on what they do is they upload your
00:03:01personal information which I know sounds kind of scary but they haven't already you've given it away and they join with Facebook what that means is say's office knows that this set of a hundred thousand people bought athletic shoes in the last month and they created targeting segment inside
00:03:16Facebook and say they upload you know a hundred thousand names or they put a little piece of Facebook code on their website that actually creates that pool of people in that Facebook Facebook doesn't actually know what that targeting segment about all they know is that suppose wants to
00:03:28reach them and there's a hundred about them and show them this set of ads when they show up and that basic joined is how most precision targeting actually did at this these companies are a hat and to be clear they're not extra data right and to be clear
00:03:40that out uploading that that the fed another wrong idea people by face because they think you know if Facebook's own date is this rich mine of stuff that's that's why they're showing ads there listening to my microphone the out of town and I said I'm not a vote
00:03:53on it might give them some other crap but not that one right and so most of the day you're actually being target out in a in a creepy way on Facebook is fake data that fits but he doesn't have that lives off line back I joined QB up
00:04:04via their joined the joining is the mixing of it it's like that nitroglycerin or whatever that you know when you get the anti right exactly so you %HESITATION so what did they do it to create the platform that created these problems then when they have these the other
00:04:17customers or anything then you talk to me about we talk about something else in your last wired are lookalikes me as lookalikes yeah I was involved with that but you know I was there when it started and lookalikes is one of the not so secret weapons of the
00:04:28savvy Facebook advertisement I'm and and this by the way is how your your your Facebook data actually gets monetized look like audiences the product addresses probably the biggest need that most advertisers have which is like I said before you've got a hundred thousand people that bought it like
00:04:42she's yes like great I know these people your average savvy advertiser has ten different ways to get that hit them either Google Facebook whatever show me another three hundred thousand people like those people that like they want lookalike exactly I mean it's very self explanatory so Facebook thing
00:04:55goes and uses it stayed its data %HESITATION about you about you all all of you all of you this the social graph people you had contact with articles you read everything they see that you do on Facebook they come up with the similarity score between two people and
00:05:11be an eight on lots of things lots of things I mean I I have to make it easy shoes are like shoe interest is probably right I mean it may not even very as a function of the the input audience it could just be as a general thing
00:05:24like you and are similar because yeah we read bird right and I thought I'd catch of the little cracks we can look like and then were more than likely going to consume the same things in our economy if we resemble each other and so %HESITATION you know deciding
00:05:38example to do the go there the term campaign said fairly publicly that they used you know a judicious mix of custom audiences the the use voter rolls on whatever data they got from the Republican National Committee right and joining joining to his book and these lookalike audience to
00:05:52find people like those to hit them with a message or even do voter suppression that publicly said they had a highly diverse oppression I'm so that those two things cost money to the look like those of the two ways that most smart markers actually and you were talking
00:06:05in Europe but smart marketers versus stupid marketer right yet like a well mixed up right I would I would you explain X. it was yeah well up well to be for example to write that in your friends the peas rice speculated turn that speculation for mostly correct about
00:06:19myself but %HESITATION but Bloomberg actually scooped %HESITATION fair fryer Bloomberg %HESITATION got out an internal report leaked from Facebook that showed that what what effectively happened elections that trump used this very smart direct marketing baths offices of the world use and it turns out the Clinton campaign use
00:06:35more water called Brander targeting age geo Los the old the old style stuff I mean basically TV on this one is good that they weren't as good a word as they basically what they didn't pay as much you thought they paid more but they didn't write a clear
00:06:50so they all paid a lot another aspect of the Facebook at system that bears little scrutiny is the engagement focus I think most of us realize that when it comes to news feed we don't see every piece of news that our friends you know spit out Facebook effectively
00:07:02parses the force will not do not realize is that engagement focus also works on the ad side so when no Trumper containers are both outlets in Adams this show to this person Facebook make an estimation of how likely you are to engage with that and that is that
00:07:17its mission is high then you effectively pay less for the same media %HESITATION fits within inventors Google works the same way I'm a part of a a typical cost per click marketplace but the idea is if you have content that's very viral of rare engagement centric because of
00:07:30negative rhetoric because of whatever yes Facebook gather will be cheaper for you so you get viral distribution so to speak on the outside as well as you do on the news feed side I think it's it's funny that piece was so with every post that I think most
00:07:43who didn't actually understand that was true on the outside as well alright so the Russians spending than it which you said was minor right it was just they were just using the platform essentially you have the whole Russian I mean I wrote my piece in reaction to the
00:07:55Russian thing yeah the the amount of that's been with was negligible %HESITATION how effective their organic non paid viral thing is a little bit hard to judge but yeah the numbers came in a face to keep his are the problem when it comes to talking about Facebook Facebook
00:08:08is so huge %HESITATION and it's so easy for journalists to spin up number that seem impressive to the layman but actually aren't in the context of its how big it is right I mean face because whatever it is not two point four billion users right every user sees
00:08:19an average of a hundred two hundred three in a post a day for talking about trillions of pieces of content %HESITATION potentially a day or a week or a month right and so when somebody comes out and says I owe the Russians produced a hun million posts over
00:08:30the course of the election that's actually up a tiny fraction of one percent of total content unless they're super effective right right right but if you can't yet correct I mean it is what they did is I mean I think one of things that does get lost his
00:08:43didn't really happen all the hacking this is and they never have to do it they used it right well I mean the Cambridge thing was a different and they demanded that hack Facebook yeah alright let's talk about that and then I want to get at how you think
00:08:54they've been handling it so that Cambridge thing from your perspective yes I think Facebook does bear some criticism there are %HESITATION I think everyone has a Cambridge directory to go through all that again but I'm the interesting thing about face but they basically stole data from the platform
00:09:09side which you know I didn't work on even even back then it was a separate world sent an absence of any announced in two thousand nine made right and then they can make a big deal of it doesn't ten eleven that's on the whole have anymore right well
00:09:20that's exactly my point right like any platform with third party developers will lately Lee quickly coming your android apps your iPhone apps they all look like crazy but you traded off against a lot of good functionality and so it kind of bringing absent system they don't need they
00:09:36don't need to do at don't need and I don't have it right once last time anyone's actually use the Facebook app other until it is time it was important and time is important but yeah the question stand why didn't they plug this sort of gaping data hole right
00:09:48in this particular company because I've done it before that's the other thing the company I remember was super aggressive about blocking data legalese on the outside and I if this company of common clearly mis use data Facebook would brutally just cut them off in the past why why
00:10:03did they let them stick around for two years now right that was the that was to me was not needed defied but they could plug that leak and they weren't even spending much like who cares who are these people nothing in this price enough and they did that
00:10:13and when they said I think the one thing that I felt was disingenuous when they said well they took the date and they didn't know we didn't know what they do with it and and of course everyone's ago yeah and I was like I bet you could follow
00:10:23that date at lake or figured out what they did with it or somehow plug the leak or there's all kinds of things that you know they become stupid when it's convenient like or or hapless or I mean it's true when you have third party developers and that day
00:10:36to leave space because not much they can do about it that said they do have tools that kind of sit there and try to you know figure that out of the tribes to widen the figure out with this firm I don't know to question yeah because they did
00:10:46it with others right I'm all the time me when I was there there was I won't name names but there is at firms that did sketchy stuff and Facebook just let them off the platform and it's like a wilderness area in the others they know when abuses are
00:10:58happening why with this group do you have any spec you know I blacks I I don't know to question some of the other day was telling me from Facebook internally well it's because the people that did it aren't there anymore and I'm like well who was running it
00:11:11like you know that the platform was ignored that it did I think about it and that it might just been they just they just slacked off the I was like so they had a basement full of sewage and was leaking everywhere and they just ignored it that that
00:11:24was the %HESITATION they weren't there and nobody was paying attention to it and I I think that figures mine I don't believe you know some of these large second yeah it's amazing how large and sophisticated some can get the when the CEO in the collective sort of like
00:11:37ice goes in one direction this whole thing just get for I know one platforms been forgotten for three or four years right writes why doesn't go away what I I denounce changes that yeah effectively have made it go away and lock it down such that it doesn't matter
00:11:49if I'm getting is about time for sure so how do you think they've been in from the outside I know you've nothing but how do you think they're handling it you know it it depends on your point of view right there with them there is wired beat that
00:12:03interviewed insiders about how they felt about Zak's performance yet hearings and that it was like cheering at phase of you know what low bar I'm sorry you know I always what I say is that he didn't he didn't do a good job they did a bad job like
00:12:15keep rain comparison he was fine but if you were if you had good questions that would have been a very different situation and there are moments there where you can see him kind of low yeah when they got a few they got a few in there but I
00:12:25was like no like the whole terms of service obsession I was like that's really not the point is it yeah yeah I I think one of the key things that came out of an asset in my book and kind of no one believe that because it just seems
00:12:35unbelievable is that knows almost nothing but at the new almost when I was there knew nothing about it that all right he didn't care I remember him not caring about the right he just doesn't care and I would say if we were like oh you're full of it
00:12:46you have no idea like no he really does that right and in fact was a quote in there somewhere about how he literally three days for the hearings that always that how it works and I want to understand how we use external data for the first time yeah
00:12:57%HESITATION yeah I mean like I tweet I think Cheryl in that question would have been way better yeah she's way more tequila and actually know that side of the business much better than than sector yeah I think it was interesting when I was passing when they had the
00:13:08the leaks notes you know his like crap notes there were more in the section on how to face apple criticisms was bigger than the many of the other sections that were more important it was like wow you're obsessed with that part like of someone calling you an ****
00:13:23lake and you have responses to it we'll get to that mix I wanna get to it you have a new piece on privacy but still more questions so how do you think they're handling it I mean he did okay but I don't think it I think he did
00:13:33they didn't do well yeah and in general he didn't he didn't **** the bed as they say you know what I mean like okay wow that's in it or you didn't sweat I mean that was an interesting like of course he didn't easily had that melt them with
00:13:45you right he did but you know it's interesting everyone put that video up you know %HESITATION luck Karen made a meltdown is going to melt down there's like first of all that was years ago second of all he's an adult now and third all you can wear the
00:13:58suit he can wear a suit and not melt like ice pretty certain he's cable but the expectations were you know how whenever trump to debate if you didn't like vomit on the stator is like success like you know I mean or grab someone's **** I mean that's the
00:14:12thing is he didn't he didn't like he was competent and so therefore it was a great raging success yeah I mean it sounds silly to say but I think half of the sort of **** that Facebook catches it's because you know the correct case make such a bad
00:14:25impression of public and kind of looks like an android and looks like neda next generation yeah he does and somehow you know Google does the exact same evil things with your date if not worse than Facebook does in fact in many ways they're much more central to this
00:14:37whole sketchy at business and Facebook as right and yet somehow Google doesn't quite at that level of %HESITATION scrutiny and why is that you know I've never quite figured out it was a complex we had internally if like me you know they're there annihilating us for doing as
00:14:50the tiny little things the dating to look anyway with all the stuff you know I I think part of it's because the the relationship of the user with Facebook as that of a of an addict to a drug like they hate the drug and they hate themselves for
00:15:00needing it but they need it right while I don't think that's a relationship that most people have with Google right writes a very transactional kind of and it's it feels useful I'm searching for even I'm getting monetized and the IBM's on Google search amazing and make a huge
00:15:12amount of money and all that data goes to your cookie reckoning if we also are personal but it's not personal it's not the same level right even though the data usage is effectively the same effect and I think the other aspect of muscular stand also is that Google's
00:15:24media empire part of it's the search thing which again has the usefulness ankle but the other side which is they run the world's biggest at exchange welcome all the retargeting that happens outside of Facebook is going through Google if rightly right you don't see that you'll see an
00:15:36ad with the Google logo next it looks right being unisex yet one because if you do I think that's also part of the the defense I think they have a purse I think they made a promise to users and Google does not have a relationship with users I
00:15:47think Facebook is made a promise you can post anything I'm your friend this is our community and Google your they're just there as a like it's like the electricity essentially but I would argue and discuss what I was reading my piece that I think Facebook has crossed the
00:15:59line of becoming a utility or social media market aside when I first got more utility but not it's more that let me ask you one more question I get some questions from readers %HESITATION each day what mark one thing the marks that all the time was we don't
00:16:12sell your data which I thought was so does it was but it's true yes but with okay they they hoard it greedily and then mash it up and give insights to and sell the audiences and they they don't sell it directly with such abuse of terminology but he
00:16:28does a they don't sell the data but they sell the data they there's they they may make money from the data they keep themselves I mean this is a huge how would you phrase the hot and what do they do they don't sell your data but comma I
00:16:39say were huge information things that they don't have the date in the sense of like thing flight of me in a bikini or some right yeah I don't like saying how people perceive it yes except I don't kill you you know but I damage you like it it's
00:16:54just it's one of those I hate when people do that you know and what did they do that well what did they do the daily validated they monetize is the data that you don't even think about for example they know who you who you are and every device
00:17:04you touch because he owes log into Facebook that's your data yeah but you don't kind of quite realize that's being sold are live when I mentioned earlier local like the fact that you and I are similar and faced by that's data they don't sell your dating they use
00:17:15your data to make money with your data never leaves Facebook that right was it to make money with right their information hoarders is what they are as is cool because Google yes I know I know you want to go to so they announce you to executive chef week
00:17:27which Kurt wrote about %HESITATION and re coat and it said the new team building privacy products of does that seem a radical change to you or have you evaluated no I I don't I do the same thing was that I was living in different years it seems to
00:17:39me that's right that's what I want from at Kevin Systrom had a black and white photos so that was diverse %HESITATION I I I did count I'm almost half of them are were immigrants are children good okay all right all right different types that are going to be
00:17:55there all anyway that's what you do you just think it just doesn't seem like a rat I mean the blocking thing I think is interesting I would have seen that one coming out the the that the fact they're gonna this now it's gonna work now we've now we're
00:18:08paying attention I mean it's you know it's funny there's so much outrage expressed them it's a business that's growing forty percent year on year with over forty percent margins right I don't know that they need to Matt from his check up or needs a radical change they're doing
00:18:21a perceptual management eggs exactly yes yeah you know I we put on ourselves and we're going to catch Al Capone now after we've been like you know helping him sell whiskey %HESITATION okay one of our listeners this week's wants to know how terrified to be the face but
00:18:36contained under the word blockchain cell start with that the privacy in the next section I am not a crypto expert I guess your preface what did you think that was interesting but I had to do just that you know well I I'm trying to figure out like why
00:18:48with the express intention of watching I mean look broadly here here I'm gonna share a tip with you how to make a billion dollars in Silicon Valley heavy metal band on something valley full proof show mark Zuckerberg a growth chart that looks like Facebook during the first three
00:19:02years and in an instant they will he will buy your company literally over the weekend like Instagram if you have the right and so what is faced with great existential threat right now being Coupland cited by the new way that we interact with these black mayors in our
00:19:14pockets right Zach missing that well it is is is existential fear in the fact that snap did he missed it too and what he's he's missed you missed that for example yes copping them stories and so I think if if blotching were to turn into a thing he's
00:19:26trying to hedge the bad of like if we actually have decentralized social networks with all our likes and comments and it actually on the blockchain and portable data next move around and we risk in our own you know blockchain social every like if if it were missed that
00:19:39boat and I would be the end phase basically what a big old lumbering ocean liner when everyone else is not right in in the sense that a proprietary walled garden ocean liner well yeah always thought they were real I have no %HESITATION comparisons are it's a different version
00:19:55of it I mean certainly you can bring the internet fifteen years ago it is now everything's writer will garden everything French alleged no particles it's them Facebook is definitely like that historical yet they've always thought about the world defensively and we are close to ask the land and
00:20:09blotching threatens that in a way absolutely yeah breaking up with his friends like well there's no next thing I'm like oh they'll be an ex others those next thing right as like the Manics thing like it's not you're not so obvious right now and you know what they
00:20:20did around Snapchat was two branches were having a both Sheryl Sandberg and Evan Spiegel on the same night at code which should be fun fun fun no fighting Ross having Linda McMahon from worldwide wrestling and she's the head of the SBA so fighting some fighting %HESITATION we got
00:20:35a good series of questions email to us by Mike bone I read Antonia's book and I thoroughly enjoyed it worked in digital marketing space is a data scientist for three years now and no there's two big players not just Facebook and Tony's original YC back product at grok
00:20:48was built on top of Google's adwords I feel he knows more about as in just his face for background want to hear more about this I'm curious what is perspective on Google and their marketing platforms is does he think there was any abuse by the trump campaign rush
00:21:01except for in the two thousand sixteen election on Google how was cool so successfully stayed out of the spotlight during these talks about privacy when they're taking on the same activities as Facebook how does he see Facebook and Google to be analogous to one another and distinct for
00:21:16potential regulations concern activities for comments well there's a lot I know the answer but just wanted to yeah when it comes to the odd thing I don't understand why Google is missing the level of scrutiny that Facebook is getting and yeah I think it all comes down to
00:21:28perception issues not reality issue how we do our relationship with the company right I mean from the susceptibility to you know Russian or trump in hacking %HESITATION amigo doesn't have the same mechanics at the face but as I guess in that sense it's relatively immune to that level
00:21:42of hacking sure %HESITATION was like that you two boys are you too busy to visit us right version of it right that's right %HESITATION what was the question for five in the house to have have they stayed out of the spotlight I don't know am I think the
00:22:00most will just don't understand how the little at system works right most googlers don't seem to understand right and how do you see pays for the world to be a novelist to each other and distinct for potential regulation concerns activities or could you see them being differently regulated
00:22:14a regulated now I think they have they do seem to have different attitude and I'm I'm looking a glass an outsider now but I think in terms of how they make money they do look at the world I think very step differently I think Facebook's is very suspicious
00:22:24of the outside world has completely closed at an advertising stack and I get into this my book and Google's more about building relatively more open platforms %HESITATION they just have very different attitudes towards the world I think my arm isn't the other is a big difference feel also
00:22:38identities but also that if you order popcorn you don't hold it they use it yet the unit was interesting I used to say Microsoft would be when it was Microsoft Google is is a Microsoft grabs everything and pulls it in and tries to control the world and Google
00:22:51opens everything up and controls it was right that's exactly Google actually surprisingly open but it is still manages the control might have been via this open so yeah it was I was like they let it out and somehow have the same control which is interesting so Bridget McCarthy
00:23:04to to ask is there a different business model besides Abin revenue in subscription that you suggest for online social services is that right you know twenty driver when I was that these everyone always said that the suppression model as the alternate ads and for years I would have
00:23:18said no for hundred for reasons and then just constantly a peach and at ten techcrunch actually advocating it any almost managed to convince me I think in markets where everyone who's going to be a Facebook user is a Facebook user like the U. S. in parts of Europe
00:23:29there is no longer a great challenge maybe you'd have some people would be willing to pay an ad free model an ad free model African people more slightly to the pay are the ones he'd monetize the best in that model right does the people whose are poos whose
00:23:42annual they want are are probably in hundreds and so you have to charge them a hundred and what they actually pay for it but would you charge them what would the cost like in the US forces in the a given amount of Asians are very different I think
00:23:53it gets problematic but I think it's probably not as crazy or not doing I don't think they're gonna do it now although it is up to make a few of them implies things in a hearing loss but he can tell you is leaving the door open to a
00:24:03not really I don't I think they're gonna try to not do it along right right what was the most surprising from that hearing for you door a few I was glued I really really boring tire thing yeah I mean there was what the one moment and I think
00:24:15I mentioned in the in the afterword to the book that's coming out in paperback this summer turn out that wasn't plugged it was it will the us right %HESITATION he mentioned how there was a scene in there and actually went back to transfer to make sure that transfer
00:24:28to make sure they didn't imagine that in which he said well no we're not a media company where tech company the senator asked but are you response for the content is well where tech company but we're responsible for the content yeah and it's just like wow yeah the
00:24:43fact that they would just come out and say that not also met some of the non technical state how can you claim both at the same time of being right response for the con and also the company and that yeah it seems like one of these moments and
00:24:53it's a congressional hearing those are words that you can't take back right right into going forward Facebook will have to be responsible for that yeah well he tried to that we have a broader responsibility here what was interesting to me was the shift when we were talking to
00:25:05ex before he said I want to set my he said it before again at my desk in California be deciding on content you member he said that and it didn't appear to me said that and writer yeah and then and I said %HESITATION you're the CEO you built
00:25:19it you made it you created it you are responsible for it and then in one of his statements he said I'm the CEO I built that I made in response really I was like carbon imagine this from an imagined Zach in an editorial meeting like the ones you
00:25:31sat in no because you have to have values that's why does one have values he doesn't want to values required decisions that will test one or the other side off and he didn't want to do that doesn't want to do that he's gonna have to but the rules
00:25:43are so different from country it is it'll be re it'll be it well you know what he built it he made it I'm sorry he made a giant pie that has to be that are like you just did he created its it creates a myriad of problems it
00:25:56is true the proffer per employee I was looking at charts on Facebook is like one of the highest intact yeah and yeah I mean that costume it's an exact at that thank you he's gonna he's gonna need operational I and you know and use our ops people and
00:26:08only every country in the world right and that's not the case right now that that's why newspapers cost like guess what welcome to my world the internet in its review of the bank sources you pay for them and it you know that's one of the delta's I sure
00:26:20you know that but that's that's the definition adult okay we're gonna take a quick break for a word from our sponsors and we back with Antonio Garcia Martinez Antonio can you give me your best reading of the line hash tag money because I've got to make money but
00:26:32we do it really rather explicit lately just like read the ads and move on okay let me here's hash tag money say in a really enticing way for readers hashtag money own ninety so that was a good one it was better than Jason's today shows party by air
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00:27:14was also brought to you by IBM we live in a world that's creating a I enabled everything a world with more IOC devices than people today technology has never been smarter but smart only matters when you put it to work where it matters when we put smart to
00:27:29work we can help save species increase crop yields and make progress not just for a few of us but for all of us so let's get to it let's put smart to work find out how at IBM dot com slash smart and we're back with Antonio Garcia Martinez
00:27:46so tell me about this privacy thing your honor and then we'll go to these other questions yeah I'm gonna catch flak for this but it's coming out to my lotus and I'm look here's the reality people most people don't care about privacy they really down %HESITATION immediately to
00:28:01care about it too it was under employed rate underemployed you know eurocrats care about it and then the entire privacy industrial complex there's an entire set of very loud voices were constantly being bribed the drum and have built mediocre as round as Caroline is going all over Twitter
00:28:16but keep them yeah but what he so and for those who doubt here's a pop quiz and I I tweeted this actually that they went did very well when in the past two or three months did Facebook reached the highest point at that breaking on the android app
00:28:28store gas in the past three months literally the day after the beliefs of contact well yeah because everyone wanted indignantly deleted or some people that I mean it would only take a few percent of faith to do this actually knock up its and the next day they went
00:28:41in actually Ballard again so they like there was a woman I say they don't care by president mean that when you pull the mask yeah I care about privacy after they say like it's asking a smoker yeah I intend to quit in the center of anyway do the
00:28:51actually drop Facebook for privacy reasons no they doubt okay that was in things that you know I was actually at a gun store after the March after the March which it was packed with people it was fascinating it was I was like wow wow that you know I
00:29:04mean it was an interesting moment but is so you think that they like they they get it but they don't care there where but I I was in an elevator with two guys elevator repairmen talking about Facebook stealing their data which was intended to San Francisco but these
00:29:17are elevator repairman so surprised well here's the other thing makes me think that privacy is not gonna matter I looked up some covert data by like old people boomer Jaxx and the millennial you know what percent do you care about your privacy and as you'd expect the the
00:29:31newer generation those who were like I'm the bridge generation like I was raised with forget money and there's no internet people who for whom this is just a bit but as always and yet they were still concerned but far less than every generation that preceded them and actually
00:29:43went on that slipping why do you look at most social issues whether be gay marriage or privacy or whatever you'll see the sort of chord changes that goes on at that point the direction where the values are not people die I've used changed and so that back makes
00:29:56me confident I think going forward most people won't care and that the way of like deleting Facebook for the sake of tell me I'm gonna push China because my kids are very aware of what they're what what they're putting up there they're more in control of it and
00:30:08they're super where they're not angry about it they're just like I took a picture of my son and one of my sons my youngest thirteen and I put everything up like I don't care right and he's like I didn't give you permission to do that so things down
00:30:20and I was like okay and he's like yeah you to wait for my permission and I don't think that's what I want and so is really fascinating it was not instant sharing it with and they both have that attitude I think that they do like Snapchat better because
00:30:32of that they feel they are aware of Facebook's information hoarding in a way and I don't tell them that either it's not that the group among them talk about so I think the youngest racial to exactly at the feel more in control thought don't get the privacy controls
00:30:45on like the older generation I yeah I'm but on the other hand that they won't care about as much right rum and so so that so that you're doing a small town like right writes I I use as an analogy when I wrote my book I I moved
00:30:56this little island in the northwest mono or that most people don't know about and %HESITATION it was weird I never live in a small town I grew up in a Miami suburb right you know the usual New York San Francisco bouncing you know little rootless cosmopolitan elite blue
00:31:09state here I never live in a small town in the small town there was no privacy right right and everyone knew who the trunk was the adulterer the cheat at you know everyone I meet someone and they'd already gotten the download about me from before you speak to
00:31:21a friend you to get the download on your mutual friends like Constantine and he's been known actually use Facebook much they didn't need it right and then I realize I started reading about and if you think about it privacy as a concept as we understand today is remarkably
00:31:33is remarkably young sort of comment on it them it didn't exist legally as a contemplating ninety one Brandeis wrote a famous sort of legal treatise on it and most of the case because actually the twentieth century that the modern definition of privacy doesn't exist that show up in
00:31:46the Oxford English Dictionary about eighteen thirteen and so you know privacy was really reaction to to to this the society that we live in this urban anonymous police society you know back whether we were hunter gather tribe or you're a seventeenth century French villager you already know everyone
00:32:00knew everyone people often slept in communal pads which is very typical into the car and era there was no privacy humans prices import in our society but it's it's a it's a a young cultural value it is not a deep human pride need you know to human primal
00:32:12need is human connection have spending sharing experience with you or your kids or whatever assuming we're close friends that that is actually a close things I think any app and I'm using Facebook brother to mean whatever social media thing is that we have to be faced away most
00:32:25of social media think the utility if we we agree on that so whatever the face of social media as people are more than willing to sacrifice this abstract notion of privacy that Brussels bureaucrats care about %HESITATION it in in pursuit of this community thing and so I you
00:32:39know and I think Zak is right separate this manifest about a year ago saying that any time very presumptuous to time the more you think about the more you kind of realize he's kind of right that he he sort of proposing face would be the social nexus is
00:32:49disappearing from any western societies right we don't have any unions like yeah the solution for Facebook has more faith in my basic right which I know it sounds a little ridiculous when you think about it well I mean look at the teachers union the biggest labor strike and
00:33:01you assist in the past twenty years of US history all organized via Facebook group might be the unions via Facebook groups right and ditto the most recent you know genocide and ethnic cleansing as well right and and to me that's that I I don't think it's actually in
00:33:13doubt whether face to consume a bigger and bigger role in terms of the public form versus I think I think that that's already happened on the ship to sail in the question really is Dale a wall that works but go ahead in right which you know which which
00:33:24side wins is that the sort of builders of the social fabric you know right via Facebook or is it the sort of the stories of it on the negative side this would win and I think the challenge for Facebook and I know ISIS Facebook users is the sort
00:33:34of you know from at the former kind of white ladder right my take which they haven't done a good enough job I mean I think you know what was interesting to me that nobody got fired face down that would be my first question for showing hi Cheryl is
00:33:47my first question I can answer that yes of course cares what should I have to leave I'm I'm even telling her in advance as you can see why not here and I'm still showing up where comes the punch the level of your power the actually get your face
00:34:00for you that to show up even though you're feeling hostile questions is incredible they would they would do it for anybody can answer it come on they're adults they're billionaires they can be killed and disappeared and fourteen seconds if they chose chose I don't know why they were
00:34:12worried about me I I I I would be worried about that can answer that question it's interesting like ever in eagle facts laws executive you know I mean like there was clearly a failure management here so why did nobody wised yeah whoever was managing the platform team during
00:34:29so Cambridge thing there probably automated my when I wonder why probably on an island they bought with their Facebook much my favorite part is a lot of the %HESITATION critics it you're you've turned your sort of a critic and not a critic the ultimate interesting %HESITATION it though
00:34:42critics have made a ton of money off right that's my fave and that'll give their shares back I know I think what I did I said several of them I'm like Hey you want to give back the money to privacy groups so what happens with privacy groups I
00:34:54mean there always be a cottage industry and you know the rate and you just think it and also the yeah in Europe they say they do have different senses in Europe radio I'd yeah you can't get a parents listen to school in Germany from an interesting because it's
00:35:06not sharing data that's not right European notions of privacy specific like a G. P. are what is this new regulation that's kicking into gear at the end of this month %HESITATION their views on privacy very different in the always claimed that shaped by history and fascism this and
00:35:18that but they go around they regulate companies nothing to do with the next stop about %HESITATION yeah they just have a they just a very different view on that yeah they really do it's quite ingrained actually the culture too well but I think that's also part of you
00:35:30think it's not a no I think I think it was yeah well I I mean yes I mean culture I think but eight it also means that attack I think he buys a bad idea actually I think because I big companies will do better and I think the
00:35:42day that they have a hundred thousand light of course exactly I mean they're gonna be in hock to Google and Facebook even more five years nothing and they will and out of the what should they have done the secret annex Facebook white if you were to control the
00:35:54fate the future than you created you know that they're going to regulate the Kurds interlude invented face he would've invented Facebook alright so and let's have some questions leaching it when I do a look like on instead of emails is the data actually secure by being hashed before
00:36:07uploading to Facebook servers or the date is still on a two man in the middle attacks it is Hestia I I mention that in Catholic is what that means for those who don't under while they're your listenership right Christmas get what it means when you do the personal
00:36:19data match when yeah effectively the axioms are the opposite of the world acting as a big data order yeah %HESITATION yes they pre hatch and the reason for that by the way is not for data privacy reasons really although it does help as your as your listeners that
00:36:31it's mostly because neither faith nor the outside party actually trust each other I said because if there isn't a match then you basically just given up free personal data like oh yeah no we don't match and then just keep it right right so since neither outside to translate
00:36:44my first that they do it that's why I was feeling yeah yeah you don't want to do it for your privacy that was the idea first are concerned yeah alright John Hall as how many people on the planet can Facebook name by their photos what are the benefits
00:36:56of this emerging technology and what's not to like so much of the I I don't see that removes the that there was a movie with them what's your name anyway there's a way that they could do everything by your photo %HESITATION do you know much about the no
00:37:12but what I will tell you that every marketer's dream is that scene in minority report yes everyone's seen it yet sure yeah Komodo with the eyes for Mr Komodo how's your tank up any idea Tom Cruise is I'm not Mister Cometa because yes telling the redness or whatever
00:37:23yeah but that that is every market absolutely in the future yeah you like another pair would you like another fleece yeah I think that that is in India part of this like it I use things like clear I'm going to say I know they're coming to get me
00:37:36some day like I think I get it but I gotta say I sailed through the airport in this part of my life later when they jail me that will be different but it's an interesting trade off I think about it all the time the at the convenience for
00:37:46security tried to have my apple they figured they figured out by some point you know I mean I'm an idiot and I I'm also watching handmaid's tale and I realize I'm an idiot alright then cat an S. wants to know I want to understand Facebook approach to its
00:38:00biggest market in the in terms of political advertising and I wouldn't get to pull it out using social media is part of this world plays growing important role electoral politics and Facebook in that affects become a dominant player sort of there's a lot of players in India right
00:38:11now what are some of the issues that we need and everybody's it's like a game of thrones they're different self bank opened and Naspers as a whole bunch of different alliances that have what are some of the issues we need to watch out for for general elections and
00:38:23next year so political advertising one of the things you and I talked about was that they should have known it was coming in two thousand sixteen like the numbers right after twelve were low right yeah so one thing when if you face looking kind of reason to use
00:38:36them doesn't also I was I was there doesn't twelve when this was going on and you know there was already a political ad sales team you know it wasn't zero but it was no big deal right when your job is part manager is prioritizing product request which basically
00:38:48means saying no to almost all of them and we say no to all the political ones because frankly they didn't drive to expand right I mean it wasn't quite that but yeah I just it was another important enough mattered more you know so but Intel sixteen the sales
00:39:02team at an estimates and gone around it understood that you know the hundred million dollars whatever that they're actually that combined trumping Clinton to spend that's pretty sizeable even when I tested it up there and to me they should have been so one of the thing they could
00:39:15be Chris eyes were so when one of the other and I think that it faced by the way is out for about nine months I was PM of what's called adds quality I think that's called as integrity but basically the police the ones who I guess my only
00:39:25adds %HESITATION it's got at a high level me but at the at the idea of the job that I used to have a guy named rob leather and okay who used to be a Facebook ads partner were actually friends and that now it's very it's much bigger teacher
00:39:37and when I was there and they they police everything like loading and whatever exactly yeah get there either begin to the point of I was at the sample alcohol ads from our super regulator yeah and actually really good at it pulling down the talk about something else recently
00:39:50but go ahead yeah but I mean what I can to extend this the exact same text back in an operational work line upon line well I don't know yet will clearly they got caught with why don't we why don't why don't you know you can do it with
00:40:04alcohol right with porn yeah why can't you police them better right so why I think they just in focus on it right even though it's an enormous amount of money they were doubling candor and so what about the next election oh I think they're gonna be a lot
00:40:16more aggressive %HESITATION which I think is good I think you know they're gonna have names on them I think that their new thing you got a better dressed right right Joe rather resign round tower apartments we know the Russians yet your risk with a credit card in paying
00:40:30and rules can't just targets wings that voters in Ohio anymore right maybe that's yeah seems to Joe receipts Joe Ruth's now so can I get to watch the Americans safe they blend in really well and then really well spot yeah I'm I'm Russians by by the way I'm
00:40:47one reader who asked not to be named emailed us to ask what data did face what used to train it stating algorithms possibly on the dating out that required Facebook log ins to use were Millie unknowing data vacuums for Facebook just a hunch hash tag just opened %HESITATION
00:41:02what porn you watch I have no idea what you think of the dating thing was kinda creepy introduction I think it is probably like the word is not a product in the history talking about why do it now right yeah but I think it's kind of cool it
00:41:14might be interesting yes I think I listen that the teaser things that I saw on line you know it seems like it's been configure pretty well its friend of a friend mutual dating it's keyed around events and stuff and not in my life what I use something like
00:41:26that no one that I I don't use stadiums but that's another issue but it yeah I I just there's no I'd rather just go right to dirty tender I guess you know what I mean like I don't know I don't know why do you trust and are more
00:41:37than that because they don't have all the rest of it I guess internet means that Google I don't have a Google nest in my house I don't have a Google I have a little home it's unplugged and I plug in when I want to get something %HESITATION think
00:41:48they just got enough I trust apple more than I do you don't think section more it sometimes trucks meet it and if you know you're doing some pretty reasonable the let the degree to which something will go to actually completely change our browsing experience to that of like
00:42:03an international fugitive just for the sake of basically making or at stock right now some people actually have done like a crumb plugin that were going out no no of course not no no when looking for like camps for my kids with some fine like big deal and
00:42:15there's nothing you can grok from that but at the I am I am concerned about them having just too much inside my home it's it's just cameras in my home I don't like it I can imagine it soup I know but you can like that take is that
00:42:27there is the government that was already will have the government will it eventually yes it could be every time the government can can do that they always do that's it see in history in the history of our country they always overstep our government might they do they just
00:42:43do when they can't help themselves that's what they they love to overstep all those agencies %HESITATION and so they did they can't do it if I don't know I just don't I can't Facebook states of America I just want to get a camera in my house the camera
00:42:54is a different thing in a home it's very different even these are gonna be rendered moot by deep fix it yes or indeed what the fakes with that so do you think I can listen from outside well that the you can construct arbitrate video showing you doing anything
00:43:07right %HESITATION yeah this their face I'm going to get into that he Tony on that that I think that's gonna totally shake they're gonna that's how I'm coming down the make a fake video of me doing something like hang out with on trump or something I'm one reader
00:43:19it here's another question for those weeks my impression is that face became post Cambridge is a company that might not even know some of its own processes and how they interact which I think you mentioned assuming they truly want improve what level of confidence you have their ability
00:43:32to self correct is it just too algorithmic now of faith occur came to pay for Facebook thinking they're gone post Facebook post Cambridge Cambridge %HESITATION now they are gone they ran those cockroaches ran for the a grant for the I mean I think I think it's been a
00:43:49couple changes that I think all this noise or is this brouhaha has created on a case of one is the privacy controls are offering our super aggressive %HESITATION if you go down to your data from phase which I encourage everyone to do yes why it's interesting it's a
00:44:00lot better than it used to because I did back when I was writing the book as a way of life yeah getting my hand as hard as intensely bat like you can tell they had made it such that you cannot put your data now it's actually quite readable
00:44:09and quite portable and the other thing is this business of leading you delete your browsing is off that's a surprise there allow you to do that so they actually are shipping things that are you know assuming they work which I assume that they use those are really powerful
00:44:21so why do it what would it is a good question because I don't have either been must be present I think I think Zach is just obsessed with the perception issue %HESITATION there's a scene in the prologue of my body hit the plight of him being but it's
00:44:33it's a reference I'm in which I was pitching all this regarding so they didn't exist at all until that address book and it was quite clear the tech work at the time but we're just getting a yes to go ahead and the only question Chuck had it in
00:44:44ask any detailed questions at all in the presentation are you can use the like button data or social plugin data on this is like well we could do you think it actually is for targeting and then we got a lot of companies like no don't use it I
00:44:57don't people actually look at the like button and think of monetization or think of a brother I said of course that is to change someone two thousand thirteen forty they start using a damn right well that's a big juicy yesterday ground middle of the maybe but whether I'm
00:45:10gonna delete it not right but I don't think it is a direction putting off but not so interesting gave to those people are turned off that's the idea so do you think there's a minute been a come to Jesus meeting for these people moment I would have been
00:45:22if you come to Jesus must one is yes they're giving you better privacy tools one I think we may think are useless now go yeah if they work in deleting your browsing is that's a very real change two I think your PR might slightly change historically faces PRG
00:45:36now has been installed on all the lead in like acts you know access favorites alright car switcher who they don't let me find nearly you're interviewing Charles amber I am but they don't let me and a lot anyway right or they just someone I think they're being a
00:45:48little more forthcoming like you know bosses tweeting and after my piece what did you think about that you know I stepped in it case it issue and he was focusing on a smaller one which she was technically right but not John and then and then rob Goldman was
00:46:02retweeted by trump yeah I'm a step in a two but that's the nature of twenty whenever you put yourself out there you're going to step in and you can see the bigger problem people have the it's like who are saying well we didn't really do that at the
00:46:12at the Kennedy airport fact matters people trusted were so it doesn't really matter I don't defend yourself right in the middle of a small thing right the middle of a bigger issue but you know I mean I think it's I think it's hard to like anyone it's hard
00:46:25to look at yourself when you're so deep inside that and peek at Menlo Park myopia it's it's Vic the victim a they're all like how I literally had one of them come back one come up to me and like always so mean to us I'm psycho **** yourself
00:46:36like like oh so sorry go go stab yourself with a private plane ride to like Paris or not all rich anymore this is the only car on the early when these the ones we're talking about her but come on the scene of people yes yeah sure yeah weeping
00:46:53weepy and another one of them was like so earnest I wanted to punch him honestly I was like that's the other thing I think Facebook is still very much does the other one to mention one of one of their head through it ultimately think the real damage that
00:47:03fits my to suffer did all this stuff it is internal turmoil and unit cohesion right all these data coming out yeah for years Facebook was historically the most impenetrable company ever yeah army after trial hard but yeah yeah well if you talk to most are like I've yeah
00:47:19but you know harder right in it and what not all are either half accidental or kind of implying that kind of but now you actually have the insiders intentionally malicious like %HESITATION you not siding with the outsider again some internal faction that's what yeah that you just never
00:47:32saw before yeah I think wow that's that's huge yeah and the Facebook loses that level of sort of missions that I definitely have lost that that's a big laugh because I don't I don't even try now I mean I I think if I tried back then I could
00:47:45ease I didn't focus on Facebook that much but early days and could get **** out of there all the time they would lead the way was fantastic the met with somebody intentionally no no some it wasn't no no no not at all because I got yelled at for
00:47:57one they forget they fired someone who is it educational happened but he this business of like little every week and you leak let me say if you're a good recording you try you can always get information and it's not intentional like it's pretty easy insulin and Alan I
00:48:10find if you try if you like it some of them are super easy others you have to try a little harder an apple if I set my mind to it I could probably you have super powers but no no but it's not ultimately people want to say thanks
00:48:23but but again that this business of and it's clear some faction inside yes grin other factions so yeah oh yeah that that sort of thing that whole thing around Alex stand was and Cheryl and that was for example reading for example yeah report that came out about Trent
00:48:36Clinton that I saw yeah here yeah like all these things like yeah that was a definite hit on her from some I was trying to figure out who it was yeah yeah because I don't think was entirely true from when I know wasn't it wasn't what was written
00:48:48outside because they took it out which was actually and that's the way that deleted it later yeah they did I don't like that when they did that they should explain themselves so lasted you think he's change marks are over we think I mean you know I don't know
00:49:00but I'm but he is the company still is the the Wasim want you know I mean I think so you know he's delighted in the book I have to find him you know I think there was a crime as the as the emperor the boy emperor yeah he
00:49:10definitely has allowed the company as an adult dealt and he is the thirty three or any other any adult men in Silicon Valley analyzing them yes they don't need to eat like food that's been pre chewed they're fun to be fine on manners they were teachers entering cater
00:49:27for dads are like you know what they're adults and they have to act like adults and have to stop sexually harassing women and at and stand up and be a man and take their responsibility seriously kind of selling Jordan peers and now which I'm not your room clean
00:49:40your record only him and I'm like I'm not even going down that road because I want to like I'd like to have a nice debate without drunkenness and can't I just don't want to I he's just that horses Assam's yes just read on just like it's so easy
00:49:55to Pierce but you know it whatever the people like it men like to hear about sitting up straight the item far be it from me to make them feel bad about themselves did you know men are the victims just so you know of are the victim of all
00:50:07all of society's anyway I'm I'm I'm joking with you so any other thoughts were to go on what what's going to be our issue from Facebook next because they always seem to step in the biggest the thinking if I call this add noise and everything discussed in detail
00:50:22can blow over and we have a through S. as we are yeah yeah I'm the bigger issue that I don't know we're gonna muddle through a firm for which there isn't a clear answer is you know this this whole post truth society yeah I'm people often cite the
00:50:36you know the palate between the printing press and like the smart card which I know sounds ridiculous like some stupid BC patch but I'm increasingly thinking that is kind of true yeah and if you actually am I'm actually going back and reading some histories of you know the
00:50:47dilemma of the book in the spent Europe in the th century nothing and %HESITATION dissimilar amazing parallels there and the the level of political and and and economic and religious strife for the pretty press because we just market in Russia in a century of bloodshed and yet Europe
00:50:59until each and every thing and people and you know it's funny I was good for himself was just like a ski the operators from the alley off of it he'd had no high minded whatever now ID actually next to make money off of the in that almost in
00:51:09poverty %HESITATION so I I think there's definitely parallel there if you if you look at the impact the good red hat on society right in which knowledge record history went from this intermediary of this clarity of selected sort of more of a private thing how did we you
00:51:23know how do we recover from a century of madness while the enlightened kind of happened we had standard around you editorship in truth an objective truth we could meet at the encyclopedia's created the special expertise in a community Mike like reference nagare library and that's the truth reading
00:51:38all agree that's the thing right we all come converge on this paradigm anything that somehow even though we're we're this tech is more sophisticated and sometimes are going for to the past and it's a mystery how do we unite right around almost forgetting the standards and what we
00:51:52now call fake news in earlier age we we would've called tribal folklore right things that seem true but really aren't and they're kind of media femara that spread through these informal social networks and we believe them because we like to believe them but there's no outside truth yeah
00:52:05and you know both left and right have the respect of folklorist although perhaps once had with another %HESITATION ends it I really do think that smartphone is in some sense undoing some of what good bring the light and come while I agree with you entity is really hard
00:52:18well where do you what do you unify around yeah and I'm I'm not sure what the answer is I I think it it may be the case that we just continue to live in the somewhat tribal folkloric fake news moral thing and and to me the issue the
00:52:31problem here like normally like what what's the issue they think the problem I mentioned in the piece that comes out today that %HESITATION the issue is that these online tribe the fall into these tribes now run under in between the you know the colored boxes on the map
00:52:44that used to define our own political and cultural entities and no longer do right like if you look at a place like United States and along refers to more or less a single collection of beliefs and values it really doesn't I'm and you can see the same thing
00:52:54in other western countries which I think is wind and so many western democracies there's this political other writing that we can hold in contempt and we just don't understand why we're sharing political power with them right and that feeling is completely mutual and I think we're all we
00:53:04all know we're talking about here it is the only thing is you thought there were things in place that everyone believe but a lot of us didn't really dnia your woman or Europe but like I'm gay or the world do you all say existed didn't for us because
00:53:19we live by different rules and I had I'm higher up on the changes in ways you know I have my education and higher but I think a lot one of things I think about a lot is why did the me to stuff get written now like what'd happen
00:53:32now and who wrote it it was women at the New York times in a game man that is not to groan feral it is not a mistake he thought he understood it he thought because he understood it and then he said it and so I think that's what's
00:53:46interesting to me is the ability to say it and so I think we didn't live in a world you think with so in agreement I don't think I was thinking of political snow I agree but I think that we didn't agree with them ever it's just now people
00:53:59can say it say it and that's the problem and I think that's really a it'll be interesting to see if we can find some real cohesion where is the rate what is the real cohesion and that's harder does not religions not certainly and it's not the solution is
00:54:15in our face and something else aliens arriving I think we'll do it accommodate we shared some enemy that's always going to go with aliens them and thank you so much as it's been a really great discussion %HESITATION integrated sort of to merit to ask %HESITATION and thanks for
00:54:31joining me in the stories out in wired he's written several more your guess right confirming everything writer I'm good right you should keep on the journals and think it's a good idea even though you always selling journalists on time you become one and you're you're you're indirectly ray
00:54:46offered about that that's alright that's what we all do we hate each other it's good it's fine it's like it's like my family my telling family we just insulted other but with images that make sense okay you can sell journalist you don't know your to that's my favorite
00:54:58part anyway it's fine than bother me it is a two thousand sixteen book about working face because call chaos monkeys command paperback of the summer summer great within you afterward cool and a lot of stuff so I can't wait at if you want more we did a podcast
00:55:11about that book on my other so we could decode just go back to July two thousand sixteen in our archives to find that was a great discussion were defined as archive I'm glad you asked the past episodes of all our podcasts are available on apple podcast Spotify Google
00:55:24play music or ever you listen to your podcasts specially for spying on you in your home and understanding your needs are you can listen every episode at Ricoh dot net slash podcast interviews apple pie cast please leave us review their otherwise tell someone about the show in person
00:55:39over email on Twitter or even on Facebook in this episode hasn't scared you away you can also just say it aloud in your home and your nest will relate to your overlords at one of the tech companies if you have questions about any tech topic with the latest
00:55:54techniques tweet them to at recode with the hashtag too embarrassed or email them to too embarrassed Rico dot net thanks for listening thanks to our sponsors and cadence thirteen inbox many which sells so that you can listen to the show for free but nothing's free is it thanks
00:56:08writer Joe Robbie and our producer Eric Johnson I'll be back next week to answer more of the questions you've been to America asset to in that today's show is brought to you by IBM technology today has never been smarter but smart only matters when you put it to
00:56:23good use together we can build a smarter future for all of us let's put smart to work find out how at IBM dot com slash smart

Transcribed by algorithms. Report Errata


Do you have questions about tech products or the week's tech news that you’re too embarrassed to ask? Kara Swisher and the rest of the team at Recode have the answers. Tune in to their podcast every Friday for straight talk about confusing topics. Submit your questions in advance by tweeting them to @Recode with the hashtag #TooEmbarrassed, or by emailing [email protected]

United States
137 episodes
since Jan, 2016
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Recode, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.


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