Sonder is the realization that each random passerby is living a life as vivid and complex as your own. 

Sonderlust is the realization that you are envious of those random passersby because you assume that they are living better lives than you are. 

It is also the name of one of my favorite podcasts, hosted by today's guest, my new best friend Sarah Heath. She's a pastor, a speaker who travels all over the United States, and she wrote a great book called What's Your StorySonderlust the Podcast explores the journey Sarah is taking after accepting a challenge from her best guy friend John: A year of figuring out exactly how it is she wants to live her life. John gave Sarah four unique challenges, all of which she explores episode-by-episode. 

    You have to love your job. You need to go on dates. You have to love where you live. You must find friends outside of your work circle. 

I loved my conversation with Sarah - she's funny, honest, and wise. Take a listen and then go check out her podcast, but it's a serial podcast, so you have to start with episode one.

You can follow Sarah on Instagram, Twitter, or by checking out her website


United States


00:00:06France welcome to this good word on today's episode i interviewed sarah heath who is the host of a new podcast called sander lust which i am addicted tio which is why i wanted to interview her and this podcast called sander lust is all about a fifty two week
00:00:26experience that she is undergoing where she is examining her own sander which is a word that basically means you look at other people's lives as it relates to your own and you feel like something is definitely missing and so sander lust is this feeling not quite foam oh
00:00:46it's more than foam all that even though things were going quite well for you your you have this experience that something's missing s o this podcast is crazy it's so good i love it so much and then when i talked to sarah i felt like we were like
00:01:02immediate best friends she's also the author of a book called what's your story and you're gonna love her as much as i do enjoy zarif sarah i'm so glad to have you on and i've been dying to do this to do this in a few for weeks so
00:01:20welcome to the podcast how are you today i'm good please don't die i'm good i'm really good i just uh you know i just came back from the beach so that's always good on i was in a good place that is yeah and so sir you are from
00:01:33canada and then you lived in the south which is like you know that most canadians probably make now you're a minister in orange county's back i mean that's totally it's just that you know when you they ask you like right down kind of like your your vision board
00:01:51This is exactly what most people so we moved from i lived in northern ontario I was born in new zealand like you teo And then i moved teo northern ontario and then we moved as a family tio mississippi on dh my parents still live in mississippi My brother
00:02:10lives in alabama and then i went to grad school in north carolina and thought ah i don't really know that i fit in here and i love i love the southeast i really do but i moved tio california right after grad school so i've been out here almost
00:02:26thirteen years and you are did you go to duke Is that we went to the school Yeah where i went um and you're a pastor at a united methodist church that's is it a church plant Is it ah reid start what is it Yes i'm here it's also
00:02:47straight so it's all of the things so it it started in nineteen twelve and they are gonna be like all the searches well they are the oldest church in costa mesa and we have one of the oldest buildings in costa mesa so the buildings actually from nineteen twenty
00:03:01seven ah and it's in the heart of this really cool city but um unfortunately they had died down about seventeen to twenty seven people in attendance in this like big beautiful like spanish mission style a church that has beautiful state glass windows and so i kind of have
00:03:20ah some experiences sort of church planting and not church my thing for saving sort of working with churches to sort of re adjust their sales and so they asked me if i would be interested in kind of doing a new start there and i kind of with the
00:03:35help of some folks realize like we don't want to shut this down like we don't want to get rid of the folks that are there the legacy that has been part of the community but there's a lot of dna that has to be changed so because i'm crazy
00:03:46i did the crazy thing of new like restarting a church which is like if you read any book they'll be like don't do this and that is exactly what i did and god's insane and crazy so it's been going really well but it's been a lot of work
00:04:01but yeah we uh we we started a church you know you could man no i mean i i also have started a church but i did not restart a church which i agree like that that's the process of getting people's anxiety basically i i work in a co
00:04:19working space because they tore down like the the stories that big so they turned on all the buildings around the church so there's just the church so that we could have a parking lot because we had no parking lot because they had sort of ah these agreements like
00:04:32gentlemen's agreements between different buildings around well then the city i grew up around it and so no longer could we park in the places that we have been parking and so they built these buildings with the understanding they would always have the parking at the school Now the
00:04:45school's gone and there's a huge corporate building so they had nowhere to park and so really they had twelve parking spots so when i came in i had made i made none of these decisions so they sold the person is they tore down all the buildings We literally
00:04:58just have a sanctuary just a sanctuary uh uh and and so it's been this weird sort of rebirthing but people you know people often say to me like sarah i thought that church was closed and it wasn't it's just that it was in kind of disrepair and like
00:05:15right before i got there someone threw a brick through are like most well known stained glass window so it was like boarded up but i will so i work in this co working space and for the first couple of months whenever i would come into my office they
00:05:29would say sarah they don't hate you they hate change because every day i'd be like ah what if we tried this and people you know some of the folks who have been there for a long time we're really invested in the way that it was going and ah
00:05:43which wasn't necessarily what we were able to continue doing and so it was it's been a painful an incredible year and then i had a book come out and i started a podcast because what i like to do is just spread myself as thin is so it was
00:06:02more like plans your church will take your entire life like well ok so i have listened to every episode of your podcast so i know muchmore about you through that so i know and we're going to talk about the program but you're too wing three right so i'm
00:06:22a three and i'm a three with the three wing i mean i like truly you know so so if you have a strong three wing for sure i get it like we just want to keep we want to keep doing new things and we have the ability to
00:06:38kind of do them quickly and well and so you know i think i think that's i think that's part of what drives the exhaustion and also the sort of addiction to keep keep saying yes to these exciting things because they are i mean they're great yeah we can
00:06:55kind of do him and but then you know i wake up one day honestly like friday i'm doing fine saturday i'm sucking my thumb and wailing you know in the corner like i fall off the edge yeah and you know that's i get there that's like that's kind
00:07:15of i think that was kind of the point of the whole podcast for for me to have this podcast that talks about this lifestyle stuff because my best guy friend we've been friends for gosh like almost like probably eleven years twelve years eighty and he uh he's just
00:07:32watched the craziness and watched me really try toe do all things and be all things to all people because the problem with me is i'm a two with three so like i want to do all the things but i want to make sure everyone else is okay well
00:07:45i do all the things and it's just a it's an internal struggle in battle and so he's the one who was like yeah you need to change your life like it's not this is not good and so yes i mean like like talk about your podcast talk about
00:08:00sounder loss what it means and then if you would sort of those four challenges that he gave you absolutely so sander lest is well saunders a word that a lot of poets have been using and actually made it into the dictionary saunter means the moment or the realization
00:08:19that everyone else is a living a separate life than you so like when you're in your car and all the sudden you realize like everyone around you is living a different story a different life sometimes that's like when you experience trauma and you're around people in all of
00:08:32a sudden like you realize that all these lives i have been going on and you're not a participant in it or their story and how they see things is totally different so that sander now sander lest is me and most of us you go oh i want that
00:08:47story or why don't i What is it my life look like that or what is it my life look like this So on my birthday this year i turned thirty seven and i realized that for as achievement driven as i have been my life doesn't look the way
00:09:01i wanted to i always thought i would be married and have kids and that you know i would i don't know what i thought i would do acting and all these dreams and things that i wanted to do it well azzan turning thirty seven i go see the
00:09:14doctor and they're like you know like you might want to think about like what whether or not you want to kids that because you're gonna have a geriatric pregnancy and you're like what with the who thinks we can we're geriatric thank you so much yeah i love them
00:09:27that i also haven't gone on a date a year so that's probably no no that was plus on dh so i think there was just this idea of i create these spaces is a pastor for people to have these phenomenal are hopefully like meaningful experiences for themselves and
00:09:46their families and on you know that image i used for people who try to understand because they look at me and i like sarah you have so many friends like you're always going you're speaking all over like how how could you possibly have this sense of sandra lust
00:10:01And i said well i think that christmas eve i work so hard on that service to create space and just this sacred space for people and this beautiful family moment but i'm sitting alone on a pew and after you guys go home with your family is a tech
00:10:15your kids in or do what ever you d'oh um i go home alone um and often have a white russian alone in prepare my suitcase so that i can fly and see my brother has two kids and i love to spend christmas a cz much as i can
00:10:32with them so like that's kind of sad what did you think about it Like i mean some of it's lovely and for my friends were like yeah i'm putting toys together that sounds amazing but it is it's like yeah i love so much of my life but it's
00:10:47not i think i accidentally became a nun i think i accidentally became a workaholic ah and so some of that has to do with my any grand for sure so i did what i always do which is i called my best friend and he is like just a
00:11:01ridiculous human and like he so my best friend i don't know if we even talk about it on the podcast but my best friend is six foot nine you do not talk about that on the podcast but somehow that comes through like my my on ly complaint sarah
00:11:20of the podcast is there's not enough john because he delicious he's going he's coming okay good good good he's really hard right now to get tied down because he worked he travels for work so and also a lot of our conversations have to be edited so severely so
00:11:39so my best friend of six point nine we got kicked out of a bible study together when we were younger on dh that's how you could kind of met we were in a small group and they basically they were like you guys could make space for people who
00:11:50have made you take it more seriously And so that's what we love to tell people that we got kicked out of a small group together me as a pastor and him as a pastor's kid So he's six foot nine he used to play pro basketball in europe Um
00:12:04if you imagined will ferrell ah and owen wilson having a love child it would be john as far as making like he's just this like but he's also very very deep and most people is actually an episode where my best girlfriends who you know they've known john forever
00:12:22are like i didn't know he's so deep and he is he's just an incredibly intelligent intuitive person that doesn't always show but ah he you know when i called him on my birthday and i just said i can't keep going like this and he said no no you
00:12:37can't and so he said at their four areas of your life i wantto i challenge you in and so i had already been talking about doing a podcast about and we're going to call it like the accidental none or no sex in the city or just something like
00:12:50really funny like that and as him and i started talking i realized like no i want to do ah podcast that has a timeframe so a year because otherwise i won't focus on it i won't pay attention to it I won't try to live these things out so
00:13:05we decided on a year because he said here's the deal if you don't change your life in a year sarah and moving you and you don't get to decide where and by the way my bishop loved that i can tell you that it's made you so like literally
00:13:20i got some phone calls and i was like guys like really like the matter is like am i happy here And i don't think you want a pastor in a space in a place where they're not happy and like in the reality is john probably going to move
00:13:31me Probably not I hope not he but he's so unpredictable he might but so the four areas are these i had to love where i live so i like where i live i live in this amazing area of california was like we feel really bad for you were
00:13:47just a speech but isolated like the super family area you know jon's joke is that i bought him and even and i don't have any kids like i live in i don't actually drive him any man but i live in a very family oriented area I own my
00:14:02condo there is no night life here There is no it's like the suburbs right and it's about about twenty five to thirty minutes away from my work So even like my work is in a very vibrant area but where i live is this very sleepy area right And
00:14:19i live in like what's called a carriage unit which means like there's no one about no one below like it's a little house and it's i have a roommate and he's great but you know it's not there's not a lot of communities i gotta love where i live
00:14:31The second thing is that i have tio have friends outside of work because i tend tio because i'm a church planter and have that sort of church revitalisation thing i tend to hang out with people that either like i hang out with them and i think we're like
00:14:47really good friends and then they start coming to my church more oh are you know i met them at church because i work a lot eh So there's that i had to have friends outside of work and then i had to go on dates which was really uh
00:15:03scary for me and a difficult i've gone to quite a traumatic season of heartbreaks where john was like got to like it's not that i needed to get over that as far as the people that i needed to get over the experiences because it has been really difficult
00:15:19for me to trust that the story could be anything but what it's been um sliver live o and i had to love my job not just like it because being a united methodist clergy never takes a lot out of you and he was like you like it and
00:15:36you're good at it but that doesn't mean you should be doing it and that i think was very scary for people to hear But i think that we need to start being honest about it and honest about what it really means to be a clergy member and how
00:15:49difficult it can be and how isolating And so that was the start of our podcast and so what we did is i talk to a bunch of people who are experts in different fields and then we kind of became aware that the store like the podcast itself was
00:16:02taking on a life of its own And so just as things were happening i went on tinder i went on and like all these things that just have been so kind of pushing me out of my comfort zone and as that was happening we would talk to different
00:16:18experts or i had the experience of twitter trolls and the craziness of what it means tohave a public voice and so then talking to my friend who that's his story and then we realized that a lot of what i've been going through his based on my any grams
00:16:32So then we talk to someone about that and a now at a place where we just have a lot of lister's and so we needed tio kind of up up our ah product i guess our production value and so also the girls who worked with me on this
00:16:46podcast or some of my really good friends and they just got to a place where they couldn't you know they didn't have the time to add it anymore and they didn't because they're learning how to do it like no one knew what they were doing later we were
00:16:58like let's just make a pot guest on dso even though my friends are famous broadcasters and they laugh at me for not coming to them but i was like no like i wantto i want to just kind of do this in sort of this organic sort of rahway
00:17:11i was thinking like some people would like that we have a substantial listeners and there i we think i don't know how to do all that either by the way so a cz of the last month because we're six months in and it was just a really traumatic
00:17:26season from about christmas on my life just hasn't been uh it's been really chaotic I was really sick like all this stuff happened and i kind of laugh because i wrote a book about joseph campbell's hero's narrative and and looking at the bible and how quite often the
00:17:41characters in the bible go through a similar thing and i'm like oh that's what this is like i'm in the middle i'm a part of the story where i'm learning you know i'm halfway through if you will are sandra list experiment and it's been really hard and so
00:17:56now we're kind of rebooting and it's you know catching some steam and i'm excited about it but like even today i've got a bunch of meetings about marketing and it's crazy people are asking me to lie a sponsor their earphones and it's like with this looks like a
00:18:13pastor who has like sponsors all wear stickers like like the cars do yeah well you know as you're talking and even as we were talking before we hit records here i think you were kind of laughing about the fact that i'm not really your target audience i'm a
00:18:29married pastor you know forty seven years old but i think one of the reasons why i love it is because you expose part of what's hard about a pastor's life is that our relation a ll circles are very conflicted and confusing i think sometimes there you know the
00:18:46non mutuality of it is hard because we create intimate spaces for people both in worship but also at coffee shops and over bars and we have a sense of meaning and that in a sense of purpose and that but it can also be incredibly lonely because there's a
00:19:06sense of like okay i'm not i'm your pastor not really your friend and i don't even really want to be your friend but maybe you think i mean i'm i'm like i'm not i mean i'm saying no i'm for me like i'm a solid too so i actually
00:19:20want to be your friend yes yes and i like i want to like be there for you i want to support you know that's just but i can't maintain all these para relationships like i can't there's no way that i can keep all these people you know and
00:19:38and the truth of it is i let them down i let them down a washer and i cried a lot over the last year i think the sentence that hey nadine cook says we all get to a point where we like grab the carpet and we cry out
00:19:50I did my best like every human say he says every human does that i think my saying that i get to or the weird sentence that i say most when i'm in grief is i just want to be a human why can't i be a human Because when
00:20:05i let people down the way they feel about it is so extreme yeah when i go through something sometimes it's not recognized you're seeing you know recently i had surgery and there was stuff going on at the church and there was no space for me to be in
00:20:21pain There is no space for me to be like i can't deal with this right now because i literally am dealing with physical pain and i am dealing with also the emotions of ah you know a difficult thing going on in my own life and having these people
00:20:36who love and care about me itself when they don't live in care about you just think of me as almost not a superhero but it's someone like no this is your job you're the lead pastor i need youto you need to do this thing and i think that's
00:20:49the part that has been so normalizing for people you know i have ah board right keep people write me actually a hand written letters which is rad well so i have all these shares on this board and they're not from pastors there from people who like ones of
00:21:05that one's a professor you know these people who say to me like i get it i i want to be a human but i'm expected tio you know one the veterinarian she said i have this job that everyone thinks is so prestigious and and she's also married mess
00:21:22kit and she said but you're the first person who's letting me say i don't love it i don't love all the parts of it i don't love you know having to constantly be gracious to people i don't you know i want to be a human and i think
00:21:36that's the we put people on a pedestal to a point where they cannot be a person and we do it to celebrities we do it to pastors and they let us down in ways that every other person is allowed to and we make space for and so that's
00:21:51i think where a lot of the audience has come from the people going okay i feel this way in my own life or i feel really uneasy about the way my life turned out and i wantto figure i'd be content because i think that's really the key i
00:22:06think to get rid of sandra less is being content with a lot of the faces and places that you already are and i wanted to fight so hard for where i was with john like that's the back and forth with us i also have a picture of him
00:22:17flipping me off on this board so that helps speaking yeah we went to this really fancy ah wine event called taste for the cure which is for breast cancer my mom's a two time survivor and so i'm really passionate about this we got all swanky dressed up and
00:22:32then we went in the photo booth and it is like the funniest photos he's like flipping me off he looks like he's strangling me i look like i'm punching him and that's our that's art that basically sums up our entire friendship were there for each other one hundred
00:22:46percent but we also pick on each other a lot I think it's this beautiful Um i don't know i didn't realize that even starting sunder less how many people would want to join in on the challenge so that's actually one of the ships that were making now is
00:22:59that we're pulling people into the challenges with us so we have a facebook group where we're like hey i want to hear because it used to be about me but any story that's just about you is boring so it's like i want to be like what what are
00:23:11you doing in the next fifty we exchange your life what are you doing Because it might not even be that you're changing your life but you're learning tow love parts of your life like i don't want like to just happen to me and the people around me like
00:23:23i want to have chosen the places and spaces that i am so yeah that's a long explanation of song less but there it is and turns out it's becoming a really popular word late seth gotten like we want to the podcast and then two weeks later seth godin
00:23:36came out with like this whole thing about and i was like sense stole my idea i don't think that friends will get right back to the podcast but i wanted to let you know if you want to know more about anything that i have done well not anything
00:23:52but my books my blog's other podcast episodes head over to steve wynn's dot com and you can find everything you need also if you want to support me on patri on dot com just goto patriot dot com slash this good word and if you support me for his
00:24:08little is two dollars a month you'll get lots of benefits fun fun stuff ok now let's get back to the podcast e i think no thank you for that long explanation and for some of the ways in which that it's affected you because so clearly it has and
00:24:29i think that's why it works because if you didn't let it affect you and if it didn't get a life of its own it would just be a gimmicky you know foam all thing that sort of feels like a costume you're trying on you know versus like no
00:24:45that break up really did suck and i guess it publicly breaking up with someone what's awful that i mean that was that was i mean in a little way those like painful here because clearly you can't you don't want to give details but there's a sense of like
00:25:02probably give enough detail for to make sense stephen included and but thank you for even going there because i think that was really well the fact that i have a dating life is so weird for people like like you have to enter and like you have to put
00:25:18an agreement like i'm sandra less person and you're about to date me and so anything that we do may be included in the bobcats well for me it was really hard because i was dating more than one person and i wasn't like and not very long because i
00:25:33can't do it like that's a big discovery for me is i think as it to you as someone it gets really invested in people's lives and now i'm in a pattern where i'm realizing that i have returned to my old pattern where i'm kind of as john says
00:25:45i build a house and my past like i put walls up i sit in there and i think the because this was a a really relationship it was a profound relationship for me anything for him going through a break up and then having to like explain it well
00:26:03you're in the midst of it Ah that was really painful Tryingto protect his privacy knowing that knowing that some of his friends listen to the broadcast that was hard I don't know if he's ever listened since we broke up um but and also because i wasn't the one
00:26:20who wanted to break up and because it came out of for me it came out of nowhere like i did not see that coming at all um it it was very painful and it took me a couple of days even to like because the the three and me
00:26:36if we talk about the any graham in a minute but the three and me wanted to act like it didn't happen or wanted to rebrand it who are you know is there a way that i can just like say oh yeah we're not seeing each other but well
00:26:49no the reality of it is like he straight up broke up with me and and i don't always understand his reasons and i still don't um you know it's interesting i we have a lot of mutual friends and our mutual people in that friends but mutual people ah
00:27:07and you know there is confused as i am you know he's now lives in my city awesome also way haven't seen each other and we're going to and it will be great i'm sure and teo there's so much he's such a i just respect him so much i
00:27:24was recently on a podcast being interviewed and one of the podcast host was just like so into the like understanding my dating life i think part of that is i don't look like a pastor and so people are very surprised of dating you know it was not difficult
00:27:39for me when i was younger and then has become week epically difficult and ah and so they was so fascinating he kept trying to get he was like what was he good looking Well was he this and i was like can we just not and then at the
00:27:51end of the podcast i'm not getting this guy asked me out one of the hosts and i was like are you really doing like what is happening like after the podcast during the podcast doesn't matter during well all right i was just like i've never said nope so
00:28:08fast about like was he come so that any of them three we we didn't we avoid failure at all costs because it me any any failure is a direct hit to our self worth and so i can totally imagine how you were genuinely tempted to be mostly honest
00:28:30you know because that's the other thing we do is we know how to be mostly made of full on kind of manipulate kind of shades stretched the truth a little bit we're not lying which is not we're just rebranding it i mean you said it well and i
00:28:43think even and sara maybe i was reading between the lines but i don't think i was like some of the way you explain that is that there was even some like spirituality stuff there that he was saying yeah boy this doesn't match her i wish you were more
00:28:57like this and right and so as a pastor i just i just was like on me and i heard for you right there it was that reading that right or was that yeah you everything that right yes so he is he's clergy remember in a different brand of
00:29:14christianity you know different denomination he's not of them he ah i think for him there wasn't what he perceived as big differences and how we see faith of doubt and for me that's like actually something i get excited about i love being around people of different but i
00:29:33think i was because of the challenge because of trying to see if this was the guy um i think i came across more closed than i actually am you know i said some things that were yeah they kind of regret like that i sort of set these boundaries
00:29:50and statements like you need to think this way or you're wrong and things like that and if you know me that's just not me but i think i was at and i so badly wanted tio make sure that this was a safe person for for all these things
00:30:07and so he's you know in a place where he's where he threw all that stuff he's also you know he's a clergy member to he's an executive pastor of a church plan in the same city is me by the way here well some i know and you know
00:30:21actually don't think that's a huge problem for me it wasn't because our communities are going to be so different uh just because of who is drawn to what we're doing is to very like eclectic very you know we're affirming is a church which is different in costa mesa
00:30:41for sure and so our community is very different you know I always say i'm the pastors of the nuns and dunn's like people who never wanted to be christian not interested think it's weird and the dunns people like the number of mtv's i preached to on in a
00:30:56week he is insane he makes my sermons role scary so the other was some of that and i just i just so respect him and i just think he is ah an incredible person and i think i was projecting this like super um almost like overly ah i
00:31:17don't even know i feel like i was just projecting this very progressive person and while parts of me are that's not all of me and so he wasn't getting to see the super jesus seaside because i was so yeah i was just in a space of like trying
00:31:31tio figure out who and what i am So i kind of i lament a little bit that we met each other in this season but i don't regret at dating him for sure he was so outside of my norm and that was the other part i think is
00:31:45that i finally let a great person in and so then when it was his choice tow walk away it was very surprising for me having like i met his friends like a couple weeks before that they were all like no like your he liked talked about you constantly
00:32:03before you guys got together and i think it was hard for me to not feel a ziff you're a huge deal but now that i know you i don't want that and i think for me that it's in a lot of the pain of being a three has
00:32:20been people's excitement with me ah excitement with what i'm capable of and then sort of this idea of feeling then abandoned when you know after you've done performing or after you've fulfilled what they needed there is that sense of but now i am alone and so if i
00:32:38just go from achievement to achievement that will never be alone because i think a lot of the any graham is really ah searching for worth and not to be alone you know Well and i said like the truth and i think the way i mean i love the
00:32:54angiogram i think it's such a helpful tool partly because it exposes all my bullshit but it also it also says but your bullshit is part of what's beautiful about you and you can't have one without the other you know like you can't be you can't be the way
00:33:12you are all the good things about you without being honest about and even to some extent embracing some of the bullshit is stuff that is shadow you know like you don't you don't get to just fix all that and then have this stuff that's great about you be
00:33:27even better you know Well i would say like for sure in this in this relationship and season and what we went through together is that i met my shadows like so two goes to an eight yeah and i stress that what i stressed out like there was a
00:33:45lot going on with hr said the church i work at there was just a lot i was under pressure that i didn't even realize i wass on dh then my health was reacting to that as well and so i was just in this place of stress and i
00:34:00went to a solid eight where i just was like questioning and just constantly and especially for someone like him who is he's a nine on and he's like super where the angiogram and he really knows he's a nine with one wing and he is just like i just
00:34:21like he had all these conversations in his head that i didn't know he was having and so for him it was very not out of the blue but for me man it was it was kind of out of the blue uh and continues to be like how is
00:34:35this even possible but um you know i'm realizing too that yeah i ate was roaring and and i don't know that i love i don't know that part of me and i also need to integrate that part is say like hey when i'm under stress like i had
00:34:52a really crazy meeting recently where i went to this pastor's gathering and it turned into a right wing rally which was really confusing for me Yeah i'm also the only female lead clergy member that comes with these things so there are looking at me like like it was
00:35:09like a prairie dog experience were like all these guys are like popping their head up and looking at me like issue okay what's happened you shed any light on fire what is happening And it was so uncomfortable but i when i go to this place in my head
00:35:22where i'm like yeah you you know i kind of be little people like oh you know well they don't have the education or they're so backwards or all this sort of stuff and then i was like no sir that's not your heart right And so i was able
00:35:36to engage with some of the folks afterwards and just like they engage with me and i was able to say like hey uh i went to my my two and was like i want to be in relationship with you but here are the ways that you have harmed
00:35:48that yeah yeah and it has been one of the coolest a couple of weeks in ministry i've ever had like people chatting with me about where i'm where i come from where might theology comes from whether or not i just say things sometimes progressives or those of us
00:36:04who have more and i don't even know that i would call myself a true progressive his true progressive also have like the idea of the resurrection is yeah like maybe for me that's i'm still worth a tox but i do have sort of a so so progressive slammed
00:36:20but i think when i was in a place of stress in the last couple months i acted as if i just conduction allies the whole bible yeah and that's actually not true i love the bible i just wasn't willing to engage in that conversation and so it has
00:36:35been really need i feel as though god has done this weird thing where people i never thought would come talk to me about hey how did you get here and then how can i how can i use the right language how can i be a pastor to people
00:36:48and i have been told my whole entire training that this is not these people don't love jesus and now i'm discovering wait a minute and so i've been in these spaces in places with people that i never thought and that's part of sandra lists as well is like
00:37:03realizing the unique giftedness and kind of place i have where i'm disarming later people don't expect me to be a lead pastor who has her masters of divinity from an ivy league school like that is not i think what people think of me when i walk into my
00:37:19air force ones You know i think i've been really grateful for that space lately I mean to the point where ah my ex's brother and i had about an hour on a half long conversation He's also a mystery And we happen to be in this longer together And
00:37:37he just said hey like i would love to hear from you and and we just sat and have this beautiful conversation and i think the giftedness of me having not gone to an eight and not having just dismissed everyone in the room unhealthy healthy is great but an
00:37:54unhealthy eight We'll just kind of say you guys are all dumb This is not right Um it has been such a gift because now i'm in relationship with people that i never thought i'd be in relationship with and they're experiencing a female pastor and they're like you know
00:38:08because there are guys in the room that i know for a fact when i was invited to join the lead pastors group were like i don't believe in women in ministry on there were other guys in there and we said yeah but if she's not at the table
00:38:18i'm not coming and so like as they're all ism so i think in this experience having reacted in a way that was was really opened the relationship has really been profound for a couple of us like i've had four five like hour or longer than our conversations about
00:38:36this stuff but i'm coming at it from a different perspective and i was a couple months ago because i think the lesson that i learned in my personal relationship um i didn't know that then i didn't know it through the break up was really that i had i
00:38:49had taken on character six that kind of weren't me and i was being a bit of an ass hole Yeah well part of what you're describing to sarah is this so probably five or six years ago that i was out on the run and i was listening to
00:39:05krista tippet do you ever listen to her being yeah and that she had this you know i love her but she had this naturalist on terry tempest williams who's describing this phenomenon called the and nico tone have you heard of have you heard of that All right so
00:39:20it's basically what you were just describing but it's a geological phenomenon like and it's the area where two adjacent ecological communities meet one another so like a forest in a meadow the ocean and the sand it's like when right sending sense and the ico tone is that in
00:39:40between place where it's not the ocean anymore and it's not the sand anymore it's sort of both and so tone comes from tone us betweens tension so there's there's a think there's there are there's life that on ly springs up in these places where you can hold the
00:40:02tension of the in between on dso that meeting with those guys that you decided to not be an eight but be a two and the life that you're seeing from that is this idea of the iko tone and i just think it's it's brilliant because it's non duelist
00:40:20nick it's non you know it it avoids well you believe in wind ministry and you don't or you believe in the resurrection i don't it like searches for a deeper and better narrative than the stupid dualism that we you know that we get into so so often well
00:40:40part of my story of being a united methodist clergy member is that i never have felt like again i think part of that is this movie from a different country part of that is my mom's british that's canadian and so we were a different you know where i'm
00:40:54i'm british southern canadian john says i'm brother median brother maybe and you can hear it in my accent because sometimes it's canadian sometimes it's british sometimes it's you know southern if i'm really tired of southern say it's a process in a southern accent that i mean i don't
00:41:12know that you can pull it off i can't my mama did you see o u s yeah this is my mom not you seem so sweet oh my god cute like just an incredible person she's incredible my family's i'm so lucky but i think i've never felt like
00:41:31i fit in so when i when i became methodist and all the pomp and circumstances and all the formality of it you know i my ordination my best friends came to my ordination and it was john you six foot nine who was wearing a bill murray shirt there
00:41:47was the bill may be sure my one of my best girlfriends who is one of the executives at tumbler one of her like our other best friend who is an actor who you know is pretty well known and the lgbt community he is like he was famous for
00:42:05being on full house is it I mean it was like the weirdest troop of people and those are my those are my humans you know And so you look at who all my you know everyone else is wearing like a power suit you know their ordination and i'm
00:42:19like i don't even do i own panty hose like it was the weirdest experience so i never felt like i fit in so i joined a church out here that was really has great music sexy worship leaders because you've gotta have like a guy with a south and
00:42:35deep crewneck you know just three d yeah really and given us just like a little tattoo riel miss like just like i might have a past you know i just you got a number of worship pastor's of it but i think it it was like i needed to
00:42:54find community that was around my own age and the methotrexate out here in california just like a lot of people are older now my community is quite young but the communities that i was a part of what my older so i join this of their church that's actually
00:43:06where i met john and i so i would be i'm a i am a pastor with a m did from duke i am twenty five years old i am attending a church that doesn't even really know how they feel about women in ministry i mean there's no taxi
00:43:22worship leaders yeah but sexy worst please ah with guys were like telling me all about like what they think and i'm i decided like sometimes i'd be like oh my gosh they think they made that up that's irony is or like sometimes i mean that definitely like this
00:43:37happened it was like you know like all this sort of thing and then you okay no like hold it down don't show what you know don't be the know it all kind of just like be present to like the people around you and so for five and a
00:43:48half years i went to this church because there were people my age it was music i liked um i was hoping you know maybe i'd meet my significant other there like i wanted to fit in so bad and i look around and there's all these girls who i
00:44:00like thought i want to be like why can't i just be a normal girl mike and i you know because a lot of these guys were graduating from local bible colleges and you know they may meet me and it's like i'm so like i might look like the
00:44:13hipster girl but i'm the one he was like yeah like i was just reading origin and i just want to say like now origin believed universalism in the thirteenth century So when you think about kierkegaard you know like i just i think i was really struggling and so
00:44:31it was a barista at this church and the weird part is in this pastor's group is one of the pastors from that church and gather he gathers us as as a group and after this really sort of polarizing meeting happened he called me and he was just like
00:44:50i need you at the table what bring us so important and it felt like this moment of redemption for me a moment where i you know why i love that church and why i always say that church and i broke up was that i couldn't fully be me
00:45:07there um and by that i mean i couldn't be a woman who's called to preach ondas muchas sometimes i hate that i don't love that i'm called to reach sometimes i wish i could just be the person who's sitting in appear like Love in life i think that
00:45:23was what was exciting for me about dating the guy saying he was like i imagined me going to his church and i could just be at his church you know on that would be really exciting for me yeah like like did you dream like i'm gonna be right
00:45:35or speaker traveler person and i'm not going to be lead pastor anymore and i could like did you think that i don't think i thought i would fully let go of my ministry i just know like his community are more like they worship on saturdays and sundays So
00:45:49imagine on saturday as i give you part of that and on sundays if i could be back in my community or yeah i mean i'm sure i had some of that maybe in my head um i think i am called in this season to run this church which
00:46:01is a bazaar some of that's come from the sandra less work Yeah it is I was talking with this pastor about like my story or whatever i said i should probably tell you i actually no you and he was you know he's known making like obviously through ministries
00:46:16like what do you mean has like i went to your church when you were at that other truth and started told my story and he was like you just sat through our sermons and we're just like schilling when i was like yeah i was like i just badly
00:46:32wanted to fit in and i never could in your community and he was like that breaks my heart well because now here i am learning from you and we are in community together and the realization that my the tent wasn't big enough eyes heartbreaking for me he's like
00:46:49because i could have learned so much from you and i was like i just wasn't in this face then or confident enough to say like hey you know i've done some of the work on this like i would love tow walk on exciting and the same is true
00:47:00for me when i'm in like the methodist church i you know i was recently at a meeting where they kept saying the millennial and i just stood up and i was like first of all them a win you'll has three kids and a mortgage like you're gunning for
00:47:15us like that ship ozil you know not the city does not understand we are not these young hipsters anymore let me least where tom's but like we're you know like we're like that's ten years ago friends like we need to talk about much more so i think i
00:47:31feel always in the liminal space are always where those ico you know that makes total sense state i feel explain it to my friend mike mccarthy whose he's a partner i've had about a podcast i love i love science Mike mike is so great literally probably one of
00:47:49my closest friends Um yeah just super it was actually chatting with his wife this way on the super blessed to have him in my life and mike and i were talking about how i often feel as though i am hand holding hands between two sides and it's sometimes
00:48:05like my arms are being ripped off or like stretch armstrong from back in the day and so i'm really i don't know i'm i i sometimes makes me side that have to be in the space but i also feel like there's really it's holy ground because people and
00:48:23that you know ministry of disarming i think i'm a little you know i'm fivefour so i'm not very from like huge Ah i have a big personality in some ways but i think my ability to be you know even my feminine presence in that room changes the room
00:48:39No And ah you know it's just a weird and so i i honor that speaks and i take that i take that role really seriously and so i didn't get up and walk out when everything in me was like this is so like you want to throw up
00:48:54because some of the stuff they were saying was against the very people that god has called me to love and like and there was a lot that some of it was like i feel like i just straight up life and i i could have made that scene and
00:49:09then i thought no no no the more difficult work the more challenging work is to sit in the space um and out from that apparently like as i was as a event was getting over by the way i have to tell you how it ended because this is
00:49:23going to make you wanna pee your pants Are you ready So after listening to a bunch of stuff that lake was really difficult for me to hear on dh for me to understand that these people were wanting a church to sign up on the lead guy of of
00:49:39the ministry that had hosted this speaker gets up and he says i just want you know about a couple of events we have guys like we're just so excited like our wives were going to join together for a pastor's wives lynchian and we would just love like so
00:49:55your wives can just get together and like understand that you're playing with the room you're in the room and i'm in the room then he looks at me go sarah yeah you should totally go to this you should totally go to the josh i am assist gender hundred
00:50:11sexual white woman but i wanted to say kill my wife oh i just got through this experience and so the pastor that actually we had written together he like kind of excuse me out the door and i looked at him and the other other pastor kind of runs
00:50:26activities like sarah i'm serious you would so be welcome into this sent a chance for you like just fellowship with other women on i was like it was like it's a t and it just like you would love it like you know it's just like i can't i
00:50:40e you know what theo and i got in the car and i was like how lovely is it though that like he wanted me to be present to this but like you still don't get it bro well that i mean a z here you talking sarah like what
00:50:54what what i'm thinking about is like we live in such an algorithm world right where we you know we we like we like and we get more of what we like and so to sit in that environment and not to get all self righteous even though you could
00:51:08have and you would have been totally just affecting two things so i got but to say how lovely it is that i could be in that environment with someone that's that different and that oh how lovely he was for inviting me i mean that is a different level
00:51:25stuff that we need right now because we are so everyone is so afraid and they're running to the extremes and they're running towards comfortable and when i say they wi i running toe what we like running teo you know where we hide ourselves from anything that's different and
00:51:44i think especially in the realm of spirituality right now way we just have to sit in those rooms right i mean it's so uncomfortable it's so uncomfortable and it's so what jesus did yeah exactly i'm not exactly like obviously this was not the cross but it was it
00:52:00is that feeling of like all right what is what is power look like ok this moment power looks like subverting my power it's like i feel like what the work i'm doing is it's almost like i get why my community exists now and and sandra lesson all this
00:52:18work that i've been doing i understand what it's about but man i want my story till like reflect that like i always joke like um i have a huge crush on the picture for the detroit tigers daniel north and this the first time going public with this said
00:52:37he listens i'm sure you know yeah sure he does I mean there's a huge in detroit Yeah he e i'm huge in sweden which is random Well he you know the year butts when songs come on come on come on That heat he uh he lives in his
00:52:55van most of the year and he ah like he has like a volkswagen van that he lives in when he's not pitching any serfs and he is a christian but he every city he pitches in he goes he's a really good photographer and takes pictures of the homeless
00:53:13community and then he like sits and like just sort of journals one person's story well and then he uh no he makes a lot of money obviously is a pitcher but he sends all of that to his accountant who only pays him like a living wait And then
00:53:29he takes the money and he likes sense kids to camp and he lives like literally lives in his van hey actually had to sign a contract that he would no longer living is venturing this season because they were like your arm is worth like eight million dollars We
00:53:43cannot ensure that arm if it's in a vault in band right And so we were kidding around and i co working say so much of us for having lunch one day and i was like i just keep telling god like how could i glorify his name If daniel
00:53:57norris and i were married i feel like our story We're just like think about like the power of that guys like what if the story is that then in their late yeah yeah earlier clear like clear but then i also realize that that sounded a little stalker ish
00:54:15and i've never i've never been one to have like celebrity crushes this has never been my thing but i don't know why this guy he's like we need to get for me but this guy like him the way he lives his life is so and i was telling
00:54:29my friend that the other day and he's like cheese he's like that guy sounds like the water seems like this is usually how it goes a little too this yeah i think my wife is gonna like find out about this guy and i'll go get turned way we
00:54:42would all hate this guy in real life means such a no yeah that's a good human so yeah that's my hope is like my story i don't i love that it's about other people and i love that it's about drawing people into like finding their joy but part
00:54:57it is like man six months and i got to tell you i hope at the end of this that i do figure out how i can both have a life that feels like a normal person and continue this life because i would love i mean i really do
00:55:12at this age i want someone tio have all these adventures on i want someone to do it with and i've never been that honest about that before that was part of the podcast like i actually told john is like i don't really want to talk about dating and
00:55:26you know what Everyone wants to talk to me about courts like people are like when is she going to start dating again Thank so because for me it's just so it's got so much pain and and it's got um yeah he's got a lot of sadness in so
00:55:43we'll see how god's writing the story how worrying and story together because it's definitely not only that i ever would have expected and you know it's never made sense well sarah oh my gosh we're out of time but i i love your podcast in this kind of humorous
00:56:01well this conversation was so beautiful helpful inspiring encouraging to me every once in a while it's like i you know i interview someone where we haven't met before haven't talked before but it seems like oh my gosh we could talk for four hours left so thank you so
00:56:20much and i am gonna point pizza everybody he just just search sander lost the podcast you can find it on itunes or union google it and it'll come up on the web there's a jirga will play all the things all those things and if you haven't you know
00:56:39if you have not listened to it start at the beginning start because this is very much so i was like a serial i mean really good like you have to you can just started in the middle you have to start at the beginning and you'll have the added
00:56:50bonus of not having to wait two weeks which is my biggest bomber like too we know every other week and where i know we're trying to so we're doing a kickstarter so that we can raise we're hoping to raise enough money that we can go every week or
00:57:05go like every other week with like a little like maybe just a little tease a little john and i episode in the middle where it's like literally just listening to us argue over the phone but i'm all so it was really just now i would just be like
00:57:19just press record unedited and there is a file in my podcast files that says john and sara shenanigans and i just we just let her editors like dip in there because it will be like us arguing over david hasselhoff like like but that could be kickstarter bonuses you
00:57:39know like if you hit you know this amount you get you get one one of the files you know what a great idea i again i'm meeting with my marketing team i'm excited about it but i self promotion as a two yeah is not my thing man well
00:57:57i'm a three so yeah you okay with that But you know that is a good idea i mean you if you have that stuff like have that be have that be a category where people get you know bonus material and because i love it i love the podcast
00:58:14i love where you're going and i i know well you're welcome i mean i even love i love hearing even mohr of even more of your heart during this last hour or so yea yea yea i will send this far and wide everybody listen tio reverence sarah heath
00:58:32at me and i'll put all your instagram and all that although you are on a social media fat i mean it won't be by the time this comes out but you currently are on a social media fest yeah i'm black dude i'm like i'm gone it's like i'm
00:58:46gone dark i'm done black out yeah did that violent honestly forty days and it was it was really good for me is really good today was yeah it's been really really good today was a little hard because my dog is so stinking adorable at the beach and i
00:59:02like the whole world should see this but i just texted it to a bunch of people thie work around from the social media fast is to text pictures well thank you thank you for having me i would love to come on and after daniel norris and i get
00:59:20engaged um i say i don't think that'll be before but something i think god's got something so with daniel norris for sure for sure yeah this is really creepy when i meet him because the problem in my life is i usually end up meeting these people thank you
00:59:34bye joke around about what i want to know so i'll be waiting for that sorry about being a creepy old lady that thought you're cute Well he's there let's how about you come back on after the year is over and let's just do we'll do an update we'll
00:59:49do you know what have you learned since then and that would be really really thank you so much

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