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00:00:01released on Sunday January 28th 2018 this Angela Life episode 135 shower stand up everyday the question is are you at young enough this going to cost is devoted mean software development life sewed following on the footsteps of our friend a good friend you know the guy I'm talking about Jason tiesi did he did went out in Denver with some folks from asynchrony Labs today
00:00:51we're back together trying to start 2018 the right way get this one out before the end of January I'm trying to plan or whatever it was for maybe using a little bit of to try and roll some of the stuff out
00:01:13all right tonight just answers questions and answers about
00:01:33yeah, this is out on the Advil connection a paycheck Well Community I don't know if that's a plug that sounds like some company that uses the word some pretty. It's kind of similar to a stack Overflow except not quite as good but they do have some really cool questions along the lines of agile and in particular that have similar most popular ones which I thought would be interesting to see how we would answer these questions the showing send it was
00:02:16some sort of Life conflict with Amos went great on that case I have no problem plugging them in
00:02:25there's their plug they got there okay so I'll take the first one just because I'm a hog
00:02:35and the very first the very top question on their most popular Q&A is how do you estimate an epic and it is interesting I'll read the Beyond just the how do you estimate an epic little subtext is to ask to make the effort for Epix but declined to do so until it was broken into stories is there any realistic way to accurately estimate the effort for an epic
00:03:07and so I haven't really looked at what the the other responders had for this and I'm trying not to look at him even though I've got the thing on my screen because I don't want to be biased by days
00:03:22my off-the-cuff answer to this is yes you can estimate these but it's an estimate and if you're having trouble with estimating apics and I think that's more of a business problem it's not coming up with an estimate problem it's a maintaining expectations and communication with your customers as to what an estimate means and what your variability is so to me sure you can do an estimate you can do the best you can and any method that you choose that seems to work for you and we can talk about specific methods that we hate we use over to varying degrees of success but to me the real answer this question isn't how do you do an estimate its how do you manage the communication with your customer on what that estimate means
00:04:21maybe even at a larger Point expectations in general with your customer so even if you've got the stories in your epic estimated I don't think adding them up always works right because there's things you probably missed in you're going to find as you explore me that's kind of what I deal is is is that you don't know everything going in right so you're going to find as you build the system so even if you are building a future with an epic you're not going to know everything you're going to come across especially if you're trying to integrate with some other systems you're going to probably run it all kinds of things that you didn't expect what you were going to stretch out your timeline it's quite a bit now as your project gets more of those things and probably can
00:05:21the story estimates and get to hang out maybe add a little bit of padding but you know the old adage is you know take your estimate in AAA and then your manager takes us and the customer you know / 12
00:05:45I love the / 12 here is I'm sort of so I really break that down and that's the part that triggered me the estimate estimate is estimating back to is history as the as the best but still in imperfect predictor of your future
00:06:43especially in terms of estimation relative similar are they project I think the best way to do this
00:07:27take a broad set of epics from my back
00:07:38I take the ones that are like the high end of the spectrum to the Spectrum all across the Spectrum in a medium or something like that what do you think my only thought I think that's great if you got that data but I know a lot of people out there end up working on Legacy code basis where One release or feature or. In the project is working on one particular part of that code and and they estimate that and that's one big epic and then the next. They're on a completely different section of the code and it all starts all
00:08:38again whatever you learned in the previous one screw it you have no clue when it comes to the next one and so I guess while I'm totally agree with you John I feel like there's a lot of people out there that would go this doesn't apply to me cuz I can't apply those pickle rules I don't have that history and even if I did that history I don't feel like I can fly it because it doesn't fit in the replies to my current situation
00:09:09what do you think I think you're I unfortunately I think you're right. Of people are saying that where that where I guess that leaves me in thanking is space-based from what will I use knowledge to create an estimate I don't have any sort of us has any sort of contact a presentation actually on the different sizes extra large is it
00:10:09what is putting contacts in using that mechanism is the best
00:10:29that's a great question I think your method as far as the the relative sizing method if you can go to a team and say look here are the things we've done in the past and just tell me. Is this bigger or smaller one that we were at being asked to do is it bigger than this one is smaller than this other one right and then by doing that several times and triangulating we're in between what two or three or whatever epics are so we can get it about in this area if you got something that you can ask them hey is this bigger or smaller if they have a history though and history and something sort of close enough that they can put their mind to the relationships between the two things but I mean the reality is that often. Even possible and in one of my definition
00:11:29sometimes we just cannot at give you a good estimate
00:11:34I think that's where we're going back to my original point was that doing estimates for Epix is more about communicating how your team is working in and keeping in contact with the customer then it is about actually making the estimate or more into showing them the burn chart it to know where we are in reaching what percentage done are we basically where are we in reaching the the end of the parts of a sympathy we already know about the that we have to take care of but we might add work in the middle of that epic because we found things that we didn't know about before
00:12:25so addressing the question which was in the store
00:12:37valid valid approach under most circumstances
00:12:44I would say it's probably unnecessary if you have that text that you can work from because you can rely on your history to provide you with an accurate enough to get by with what you need to do a text that you are sort of what you're going to be until you can finally start to text you have based on your experience level understand that we spoke about
00:13:34text information that you have about about what it is that is desired is the feature of the I think that's the right the value of breaking it in the stories into how many stories and how many points did I think of all the pieces that might come up and at least having some reasonable ballpark idea of what's involved there
00:14:08I would add that another important piece here is that I have been I see a lot of teams make the mistake of is they aren't honest about what their estimate comes out to be so in a lot of cases I've seen groups go through the process and come up with an estimate and when they look at that estimate they go oh gee I'm not sure I can tell the customer it's going to take that long and and then they convince themselves that somehow they're wrong and I think in a lot of cases they should just trust their instincts and Trust the fact that if you think it's going to take that long you're probably go by and see how you can come up with more MVP minimum viable product to work minimum Market will feature
00:15:07yeah a lot of times teams also basically they're they're told them that somehow the estimates magically end up being two weeks and then they actually end up being 4 weeks
00:15:26so so in search of foreshadowing give Emma a time like to meet because they will they will try to make you happy you know if you're the the product but unfortunately they'll try to make you happy the beginning which ends up making you unhappy at the end of our answers mostly okay
00:16:06I had sort of presuppose that that that is if you can do that great but I said presuppose that there was there was you were going to be required to provide some sort of mixed together pretty pretty well yeah it to channel to channel t i c r g there's there's business people and they just have their job to do they've got to be able to make their plans and make predictions and and decide budget is pretty good lie that's probably what he was said
00:16:46it would say a way better than that but you know that the Jason spent about of the last episode 134 of the show trying to speak to you Craig said that he claims to do real work I don't have it anymore so I have less time to listen to podcasts
00:17:18Rocky hock
00:17:25as do most things have another one I would love I would love to see if one of you guys have one of those that okay I'll read this one because I think this is this is sort of a fun one to talk about it says the question says personal life
00:17:58and then the more detailed question says
00:18:05I believe that it may be possible to personal activities I think this person has some issues in your personal life
00:18:25yeah I've actually done this in a couple of places now so well when my kids were younger we had issues with a Doling out chores right in particular there was this well that's not fair that one batch or takes longer than that in this other chore so we can't really you can't give me that one then heard the other one and and so it was kind of this fairness thing right always but they all had to get done so we put a kanban board where each one of the chores was part of the combo on board and each kid had a essentially a a weekly set of points in each in each we had asked a mated each one of the tasks with the kids as to how many points they felt like that sure was worse and
00:19:25they each had an equal number of points that they had to satisfy within a week but they could do it in any order they can just move across the combine but that basically taking it into the doing column was them claiming it but then I had to do it right and then when they were done they would put it in the finished column in and they're in their swim line so that so that we would Dan at the end of the week at up everybody's points or what often happened is they would get a few done during the week I'll up at the end of the week but they would still on that Saturday or Sunday when we said okay time to get everything finished they would go through and use the kanban board and and finish up the last of their points if you play planning poker with them
00:20:18I thought it was just a discussion of of how much relative to each other how much how many points each things worth
00:20:28did you ever play get kanban game with them to know that I do not but they should work on the things I probably need that in my personal life to to show me that the things in progress need to be that I mean you can use on Bond and not understand what get combined is trying to teach you which is that always work on the thing on the right
00:21:01yeah this was a simplified form where it was just ready to be done doing Don so I could probably stand to limit by whip in my personal life a lot actually came up last night with a get alias to push work-in-progress up to a repo so that I don't have things that I haven't committed the master yet because that happens that I end up with pieces of projects on multiple computers and not having one place to find them all
00:21:38as personal I have plenty of personal my personal life is is codeine or writing things up in markdown which I keep it in did every post so I'm actually I'm actually moving my to do list to to a git repo
00:22:05broaden your life possibly
00:22:13it is winter in one of my favorite activities is canoeing so it's a little hard to do around here
00:22:28take me take your way down the
00:22:30the river I've used this I've use principles of agile in my personal life and I can I don't know Craig is this is this is what you were talking about to start things but it's not okay so we're in the same boat you're out on actually finishing them and it's probably cuz of starting as opposed to drudgery of sort of getting things done and do that minimal viable version of
00:23:30of the activity or the minimal marketable version of the activity in the spring has crossed accumulates in there over the winter time one thing that I would do is drag the trouble is now everything's out in the driveway if I throw the garage example sometimes
00:24:22yes but sometimes it's better to empty out the entire garage to make sure that I do the whole thing that I don't eat the whole thing for you know next year or something which which I do have a tendency to sometimes that whole hog approach actually has a nice forcing function for me but in general I think the smaller projects I think that's the getting things done I believe she teaches you to basically say what the next step is toward your each goal and so you do that small step and by breaking it on the small steps you're just like you're more likely to complete it you're more likely to feel good about and take that into the next step
00:25:09okay I think we need an arbitrator here because I'm not sure what do you think about the pros and cons of cleaning the whole hog garage
00:25:27it seems to me that you both have different personalities and therefore different motivations will will be effective depending on the 1st so John I probably am closer to you as far as your message you would use and I like the idea of breaking down into small pieces and getting that that little jolt of accomplishment multiple times rather than this huge jolt at the end when I accomplish everything Which is less likely to happen when I have a broken down into small parts so I totally get that but but I think everybody's got their own does their own thing and they're all good in Troy
00:26:16so I have trouble getting motivated in things like the special things like cleaning the garage so while I drove would tell me to do the small things I tend to get less done that way and I think it's just I found what works for me and cleaning the garage 10th to be the The Big Empty everything out put it back in about the other thing I guess is it's empty. A small little area that right there is the same thing that I hear on real software
00:26:59so it's it's easier for me to sweep out the garage it's also easier for me to test hahaha also I cheated I don't sleep all the time sometimes I just use the the leaf blower which really doesn't work in the garage but it really doesn't work when the garage is partly full you just push the dust honors things
00:27:34I'm still confused about this whole garage clean thing I don't know what the heck you guys talk about
00:27:44did you have two cars in a two car garage and I do also not the norm in are 2 garage neighborhood it actually is one of my pet peeves when people park on the street and don't use their garage or their driveway the things that you're supposed to put your car is on and it said I had to swerve around all their parked vehicles on the on the street like me an extra storage people
00:28:26or just don't like to clean the garage right off of I digress a whole bunch
00:28:32is your neighborhood on the side of their house. But those things there never put them away the garage everything beautiful weed that's called that's called tech deck for your home right now you can use as a magical practices practices
00:29:32I noticed it in my personal life. Org I will put the link in the show notes it's the one that shows the different practices of agile methodologies to come from like noon or strong or next week program so that I would say that person wife is pair programming OK sign up for dance partner while hey I think that's a retrospective would be the the marital counseling on
00:30:32no sharing the workload works out really well that's kind of like what marriage says is about
00:30:42anyone have a stand up for their personal life
00:30:47that's a good question I do not know I don't think so
00:30:54other than well actually
00:30:57my wife and I do but that's my personal
00:31:03the team room Hebrews apparently practice
00:31:20this is going to get really I like ramps no okay just because it's going to it's going to freak people out so my wife and I tend to to shower together every morning and so we have conversations in the shower and that's our stand up we are literally standing up and we got a limit of x is that hot water is not going to last forever that's crazy
00:32:00Terry station we have sinks right next to each other and not working so well I've done it with the family and the family
00:32:26that's cool but let's move on to another question question or what are most popular questions in the list says to be successful and Advil should you do regression testing for each iteration and we we briefly talked about that before we started and Lee and I actually had a disagreement already before I even got the answering the questions on go there the discussion was about is regression testing even in a job practice I mean I never said it was a software development practice not necessarily I don't I don't know much more bluntly and I don't I don't disagree with that but
00:33:24I mean testing is is a big part of agile I guess maybe it's more how we test then then whether we do regression testing though I maybe that's our distinction that needs to be made to look at Subway map I mean there's a whole track on testing but none of them actually say regression testing to be fair
00:33:51so I think there's a deeper question here which is
00:33:56when were writing software in general and we're doing it in this iterative way what is our Cadence for testing
00:34:06well I think that depends a lot on you know how how you got your testing set up which is which is some things that I don't does have recommendations on how did you like test first with unit tests
00:34:22at the unit I should be automated I think I don't know that any of us are going to disagree with that unless you got some really off-the-wall requirements. That's pretty much a very minimal Baseline
00:34:39absolutely if you got sort of into and exceptions tests those might take longer you probably want to do some exploratory testing
00:34:52but I mean to the question I think you should be doing regression testing at least a cheater Asian
00:35:04but I mean if you get to continuous-deployment then you might have a larger regression testing sweet that
00:35:14that you want to run periodically that actually is longer than each other Asian of each iteration is you know an hour or less but I think in general that should be even that should be automated regression testing and then maybe there's some exploratory manual testing that happens just pretty much throughout the day to see if there's a problem that weren't caught by the ottoman test
00:35:45I wanted to jump in here because I I partially feel like this is a little bit of a loaded question
00:35:52most popular questions on the website it seems to be sort of like this question is yes you should regression testing for each release or whatever they're calling it demarcating these periods of time where where you want to do this regression I think the real the real trap that you can run into
00:36:43is the fact that there's no testing was somehow estimated this testing stop
00:37:06in today's world with the way we do we do continuous integration continuous delivery and deployment the cycle of the delivery is so much.
00:37:26let's call it the waterfall testing the curve on regression testing that it will become untenable and unsustainable Russian testing what this means is forces the issue to say
00:37:50do the regression testing and make sure you're doing it in a way that you can continue to do it the more and more functionality that you added the real question here is should not be automated testing testing until the very last picture ever gets pictures of Russian test in some way shape or form
00:38:20what is a key there is some way shape or form which is makes still go back to that testing pyramid and make sure you're not automating stuff that is going to say you don't necessarily have to automate everything but it should be the vast majority of your stuff should still be automated there still going to be some things that are not answer the questions yes you should be doing that probably except contacts matters and so there are some circumstances where it might not be the right choice
00:38:59that's a big
00:39:01shrug of the shoulders then it's default to yes unless you can prove to me but yes why did you have a good reason not to
00:39:13you said yes probably in contacts matter so maybe
00:39:19I like to clarify yes unless you could prove to me other software development is not a queen thing as it was not a clean thing all of this is guess work and we're faking it all the way through we're doing the best we can every single day and we're screwing up constantly to learning there you go that's the important part
00:39:48knowledge and recognize that we're learning new ways to do things all the time
00:39:53see I would have rephrase that I would have said I acknowledge the fact that I'm a dumbass on most days but I paying attention and recognize when I'm a dumbass most of the time or I hope somebody will tell me you try not to make the same mistakes made yesterday you got me
00:40:20I think it was gone I think they were actually made something out of a Manifesto if they'd never use more flower flower language Ski Lodge
00:40:34more alcohol and more colorful metaphors
00:40:40I personally imagine whenever I think of the add-on Manifesto and it's being created I actually think of them in a big hot tub in the middle of the snowy Alps I think they're all sitting in the hot things to talk about the best hot schedule
00:41:09when you have to walk through snow to get your hot tub that is a great hot tub
00:41:22okay we what do you have for your pick for this upset well my pic is what we kind of use for the episode so I cheated the Admiral connection pretty simple www.auction.com seems like a pretty cool site good good resources in there
00:41:43yeah we love resources
00:41:50thanks for signing the action I was really helpful for our conversation tonight I will go second part of a second one and it was because there's probably a year-and-a-half ago I actually know some people in Denver I think they started it up and by the way they have a podcast I know it's cast listeners out there to share so I'll go ahead and put in our show notes from 2017 end of the year best of 2017 sort of things
00:42:5066 developer resources from 2017 so I will also so I took the video out of cat out I thought you said hacker noon but I assume you meant after news
00:43:09hacker noon what is that
00:43:14oh my God more stuff I need to read your you're so 2010 man
00:43:21I love her specifically know much about Hacker News about from resources I found interesting so
00:43:52did you know today I learned
00:44:00alright so when I do fix I kind of look around at what I've been looking at on the internet and I've been watching a lot of car videos lately and there's a columnist for AutoTrader oversteer and he's got a channel on YouTube and he basically goes around the country and borrows people's cars to test drive exotic cars so it's really cool to see these exotic cars that he's showing you all the features and in and weird quirks and raising them how they would be for the weekend you know how much Creature Comforts and also how cool are they so that's why I've been up to the other one may be a little bit related to to work so I can't listen to music and program because lyrics to get in the way of my my thinking
00:45:00listening to music without lyrics I don't like electronic music classical music that's not really exciting so I listen to music while but I think I might have found something finally that I can listen to music and but it's it's it's instrumental version I'm a man so to artist that particular that I found that I think my work for me I once got two cellos and so they are cello players and they basically play Heavy Metal and hard rock versions on their cello Arthur quite interesting fact I'm going to see them at a local theater in I think next week and Twins and they're sort of a similar idea they're actually playing Metallica another similar artists on on to Harps and they actually are twins
00:46:00I'm so going to see if I can actually listen to those while programming
00:46:05I got a suggestion for you Craig along those same lines that's one that my my youngest daughter pointed me to is called The Piano Guys and they they don't just do pianos sp&s the other one is a cellist or a cellist sorry and they do some some nice stuff along those same lines that you're describing passion types I really like actually the the edges of rock or where Rock mines with some other genre so another one like that is like hayseed Dixie which is ACDC songs played in bluegrass
00:46:47I like to use for video games is written and composed for programming programming so I stopped I found some different stations and sometimes video game music
00:47:47music itself without any sort of any sort of production
00:47:55sing for all of our listeners to check out guys and all these other 35 episode session tonight to your questions or you could email them to email them to me my email address you can also join our Channel and if you want to do that reach out to us for the website and we can get you hooked up on the slack Channel but let us know what sorts of questions you would like for us to answer in the future
00:48:42that's it for this episode thanks for listening and keep living the schedule like making approach to self 22 that event

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