TRANSCRIPT 🔗
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Matt Abrahams: We need to leverage
the way our brains learn and focus to
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help make our messages more memorable.
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My name is Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at
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Stanford Graduate School of Business.
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Welcome to this Quick Thinks episode
of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
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My interview with neuroscientist Carmen
Simon was truly insightful and helpful.
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Carmen provided so many tips and
tools that we simply could not fit
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all of her wisdom into one episode.
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So fasten your seat belts and
get ready to learn more ways to
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make your messages unforgettable.
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Your work distinguishes between
active and passive experiences.
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Do you have any communication guidance
for a leader who wants to turn a routine,
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often boring experience, like a team
meeting or an all hands training of
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some sort, into an experience that's
more active and engaging and memorable,
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so that people will collaborate more,
buy in more, and remember it more?
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Carmen Simon: Yes, I like all
those phrases that you are using
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and one of the hottest trends in
neuroscience is embodied cognition.
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The reason it's one of the hottest trends
is because recognizing that the way we
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come to know the world, perceive it and
eventually build memories and eventually
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build decisions, is not by building
some abstract mental representations.
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Yeah, sure, we do that, but
we come to know the world that
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the intersection of brain body
interacting with the environments.
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Embodied cognition.
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So the more you invite your audiences
to interact with anything, and
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especially physically, then you
are already impacting cognition.
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So how can that happen in real life?
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Some companies are lucky where
they have an experiential center.
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You can invite people in your offices.
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Even this experience right now is
memorable because we could have done
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this very easily, virtually, but now we
are in a studio surrounded by excellent
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people and their skills and equipment.
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Now, more of our senses are involved.
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We can kick it down a notch
because not everybody has
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access to these kinds of spaces.
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One thing that I was able to show in a
neuroscience study I conducted was the
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difference between what happens when
somebody views a presentation passively
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versus when they're asked to type notes
as they're listening to the speaker versus
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when they're asked to hand write notes.
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So of course, that third condition people
in that performed better in terms of
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attention and subsequent memory, because
now think about how much is involved
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when you hand write, your fingers
are in it, the entire hand is in it.
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Your entire arm, your neck, your
shoulders, you're contributing to this.
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Besides when you're handwriting versus
typing, you are synthesizing things
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a little bit more versus when you're
typing, by the way, you're typing more
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verbatim what the other person says.
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So the processing is not so deep.
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So that could be the most benign way in
which we engage the brain and the body
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is simply asking people to take notes,
tell your audience, this is worthwhile.
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This will serve you well.
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Write this down.
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Matt Abrahams: So getting people
to do something where they're
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connecting their physical experience
with their mental experience helps.
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So a technique I often recommend
that people do is to put people
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in a physical place mentally.
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So I use descriptive language, so
the room is dark, it's cold outside.
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Is there a similar effect when it's not
actually physical, but you're getting
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people to envision some physicality?
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Carmen Simon: It's a good proxy.
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So in addition to the vision of
it all, can you apply some motion.
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Like when you said, yeah, it was a
dark room and he kicked a wall in it.
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Now you have the vision plus some
movement that is happening, or the
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air was circulating so much that her
hair became curlier in the moment.
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You see now there is some
action, involve some movement.
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The brain has evolved to
pay attention to movement.
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Lately, even spaces have evolved.
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Like for instance, I
Load full transcript
participated in a
conference and it was held in a castle.
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So sometimes the environment in
itself contributes to making the
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experience a little extra special.
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Another one that I just presented
at recently was in a monastery.
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I've heard of events being held on a boat.
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I've heard of business meetings
happening in something that otherwise
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wouldn't have been considered your
typical and predictable boardroom.
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So one of the reasons they're extra
special is because, remember, it's brain
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body interacting with the environment.
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So the environment itself is
unpredictable, you increase the
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chances of attention and memory.
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Matt Abrahams: Super cool.
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So if you really want to help your
audience, it's not just thinking about
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your message and what you ask them to do.
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The space in which you
do it can have impact.
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I want to turn to two things that are
very important in storytelling, and I'm
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curious to get your perspective on how
they help us with attention and memory.
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The value of intrigue and curiosity.
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These are tools that
get people to lean in.
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What are your thoughts on those and
do you have some research and specific
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advice on how we can leverage those?
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Carmen Simon: It's an interesting
dimension, especially that
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of getting the brain curious.
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And not an easy one to reach because
are you noticing that some people are
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so jaded where whatever you show them
is like, eh, another one of those.
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So this is why I am glad that you have
the wonderful listeners that you're
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talking about because we need people
like them to try a little bit harder
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to instigate and get the brain to
be just a little bit extra excited.
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Obviously, you often rely
on intrinsic motivation.
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Like some people come to your content
and they're intrinsically motivated to
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listen, and they're curious about things.
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When they may not, then you
have the responsibility, can you
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create some tension in the brain?
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What I'm noticing in my research time
and time again is that as we calculate
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emotions, and from a neuroscience
perspective, we have two variables
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that are instrumental to emotion.
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What are they?
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Valence, which is how much the
brain enjoys an experience.
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It could be positive or negative.
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And arousal meaning how alert and awake
people are during that experience.
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So picture this as quadrants now.
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So you have valence on a horizontal axis,
you have arousal on a vertical axis.
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At these quadrants, you have these
intersections of you're really
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amped up and you like something,
and now you're alert, like it
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cannot possibly be nonchalant.
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Matt Abrahams: What immediately
popped into my mind is listening
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to a comedian tell jokes.
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Carmen Simon: So a good standup comedian
doesn't necessarily let you relax lower.
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Right now you can relax a little
bit more, maybe like reading a
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book lower left that's negative
valence, but you're not upset.
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So as you're thinking about these
quadrants, know this lower left
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negative valence and low arousal.
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That's where boredom settles in,
and that's where memories go to die.
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Some people might think that, oh, should
always have things that are positive.
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Either that they amp you up
or they keep you more relaxed,
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but positive nonetheless.
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But that's not what I'm observing.
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Quite often attention and memory
are created at the intersection of
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negative valence and high arousal.
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Now I'm feeling it.
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I'm a little anxious about this.
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There is tension and quite often that
tension can provoke some curiosity,
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which is what you're asking about.
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So I remember we were doing a presentation
about cybersecurity, and this vendor
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was saying, if you use us, we'll help
you manage information, technology
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and OT, operational technology.
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And in the presentation they were saying,
if in IT some of your systems get hacked,
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data gets stolen, there's a breach.
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People lose their jobs.
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OT if a physical object gets
hacked, people can lose their lives
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--> 00:07:07.160
because if you hack an oil rig for
instance, people can really die.
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So we are just getting like really
deep into this and even the slides
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are turning dark and you could see
like a little cross with a little
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bit of blood dripping off of it.
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Now you can like physically
see this lean in motion.
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The brain is motivated to
keep on going a little bit.
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So from a neuroscience perspective, I
think I would equate this dimension of
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motivation and leaning into a system
versus withdrawing as a sign of curiosity.
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Now tell me a little bit more.
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I'm willing to stay with you
for the next moment over until
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you get me to that lower left.
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You're always just a click away for
lower left, but a bit of tension
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and friction can help you there.
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Matt Abrahams: So as we think about
the stories we tell, the examples
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we use, the testimonials we provide,
we should actually, I think,
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almost map them on your two by two
matrix and see where do they fit.
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And as long as they are arousing in some
way, and the valence isn't as important
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and we can think about how we can drop
those in and I assume we can't have too
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many back to back of all the same kind.
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'Cause it can become almost overwhelming.
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Carmen Simon: It's true.
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It can become overwhelming and you
don't want people to be staying in
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that upper left for too long because
then it is just really draining.
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But a combination of the three,
so upper left, upper right, and
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lower right, those are really good.
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Every so often the brain will go
into a slight state of boredom.
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We can't claim that all of a sudden just
everything is going to be an epiphany.
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Matt Abrahams: You argue that
we often overdeliver on content,
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which creates cognitive overload.
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What are the key communication habits
a person should break to reduce the
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load they put on their audience and
ensure that their core message is
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not only received, but understood?
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So we say more than we
need to it sounds like.
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Carmen Simon: Sometimes we say more than
we need to,
and it's an intriguing concept
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to me because here's the good news for
everybody, especially as the world is
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getting more complex, the brain actually
synchronizes better with that which
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is complex than that which is simple.
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Where does complexity
and overload come in?
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It's not really complexity
that gets us in trouble.
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It's randomness.
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So really when we talk about overload,
we're talking about some random bits and
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pieces that people go on, in and out,
in and out, in and out without enabling
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somebody else's brain to see some patterns
to see how all of these, as difficult as
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they may be, components come together.
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So one practical technique, especially if
we have technical people who like to geek
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out for a moment, is related to fractals.
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So for those of you who may wonder what
are fractals, there are these objects
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or even parts of our bodies have those
properties, objects that have the same
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properties at any level of magnification.
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So for instance, if you picture a
tree, you have the trunk, you have
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the branches, and if you go to the
smallest of the smallest of the
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branch, that low branch has the same
properties as the entire big tree.
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Or if you go to the grocery store,
you see a head of cauliflower.
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The entire head of cauliflower is
composed of these tiny baby heads of
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cauliflower, and those baby heads have
the same properties as the entire head.
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So it's cauliflower all the way down.
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So as a practical technique, think
about all your content, anything
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that you want to share with an
audience, and as complex or seemingly
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overloading as it may be, wonder what
are just some core sets of properties?
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That's where would your 10% message
to come in as well, so that your
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entire content is being perceived
as cauliflower all the way down.
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Because if you have this core that never
changes, then you can elaborate and
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you can add stories, and you can add
details, you can add your analogies, all
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of those beautiful things you mentioned.
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But you won't feel overwhelming because
you're coming back to the same core.
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--> 00:10:36.910
You're coming back to the
same short set of rules.
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Matt Abrahams: So have a clear through
line that you can connect things to
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rather than, that's why when people
go off on tangents, it can be so
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frustrating and difficult to stay focused.
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So we have to have a clear goal, clear
direction, help our audience see the
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patterns of the things we're saying.
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Carmen Simon: See the patterns,
and just come back home.
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So when we say control your 10%, come
back to that 10% message every so
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often to say, yeah, we went over here
and we went over here, we over here.
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But overall, everything just condenses
down to this one handful of things.
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Matt Abrahams: One of the other things
that strikes me that 90% does is even
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though you might not remember the
content, you might remember the feeling.
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And so even if I only remember 10% of
what you say, I might leave saying,
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she was really on her game and
competent, and that can help me as well.
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Carmen Simon: The strong emotions will
definitely help in a competitive space.
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Challenge yourself to combine
emotion with some verbatim phrases.
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You cannot afford to only operate
on emotions as some, just because
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other companies will also have
their messages and their emotions.
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So ideally it's your combination
that makes it through.
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Matt Abrahams: I have seen your books.
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I've seen your book covers.
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I've seen presentations that you've done.
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Visuals play very strongly in what you do.
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Can you give us some best practices
and advice when using visuals to
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help with memory and engagement?
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Carmen Simon: Yes.
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That is one of my favorite
topics to talk about because with
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neuroscience we can debunk some myths.
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And I'm sure you've heard this
many times before, same for our
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listeners, that some people are visual
learners, some people are auditory
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learners, some are kinesthetic.
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I hope nobody ever repeats those
sentences ever again because
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primarily we are the visual beings.
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60 to 70% of our body receptors,
which is how we take in
the world,
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and we start perceiving things
and building memories are visual.
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We have visual people.
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Assuming of course, you're
visually able, even when you're
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not, you're still seeing inwards.
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You have to take care of your visuals.
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You can do them by showing people
some pictures or by doing what you
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were recommending earlier, which I
really like, enabling the brain to see
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inwards, like building mental images.
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So don't put so much pressure on
yourselves, like suddenly you have
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to come up with some amazing graphics
and you don't have a graphics degree.
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If you do have some sort of
inclination towards the images, what
00:12:51.815 --> 00:12:56.735
I'm doing a lot of research on is
cliché images and cliché phrases.
00:12:56.885 --> 00:13:01.675
I'm noticing that the brain, especially
the global brain, I did a study on this,
00:13:01.885 --> 00:13:04.584
has some comfort with the written cliché.
00:13:05.245 --> 00:13:09.055
So for instance, if you say phrases
like such and such is a game changer,
00:13:09.115 --> 00:13:13.944
or this is a win-win situation, or
data-driven, anything these days,
00:13:14.245 --> 00:13:17.995
I was noticing that as I included
people from the us, people from Asia,
00:13:17.995 --> 00:13:22.045
people from Europe, we have a certain
amount of comfort with a cliché, it's
00:13:22.045 --> 00:13:24.084
almost like it's a universal language.
00:13:24.170 --> 00:13:25.250
People come home.
00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:26.060
It's like, I got it.
00:13:26.089 --> 00:13:27.380
As long as you don't overdo it.
00:13:27.530 --> 00:13:31.310
The clichés in that study, there are
only 5% of the entire communication.
00:13:31.400 --> 00:13:35.930
However, the global brain doesn't
have any energy for cliché images.
00:13:36.140 --> 00:13:37.010
And what are those?
00:13:37.010 --> 00:13:40.670
You wanna take a guess what's the
most cliché image in business content?
00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:42.140
Matt Abrahams: The first thing
that came to mind was like
00:13:42.140 --> 00:13:43.459
a sun rising or something.
00:13:43.459 --> 00:13:44.209
Carmen Simon: You're not far.
00:13:44.209 --> 00:13:46.520
So the mountain, climbing
mountains, and especially
00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:48.380
usually at a sunrise or a sunset.
00:13:48.530 --> 00:13:52.045
And I have to say this, by the way, I
was listening to this incredible keynote
00:13:52.045 --> 00:13:56.035
speaker and he was a mountaineer,
and he said, visualizing business
00:13:56.035 --> 00:13:59.035
success by showing a business person
on top of the mountain is like
00:13:59.035 --> 00:14:00.055
the worst thing that you can do.
00:14:00.385 -->
00:14:04.285
Not only is it cliché, but most
accidents in mountaineering happen
00:14:04.285 --> 00:14:05.515
when you go down the mountain.
00:14:05.815 --> 00:14:09.295
So just to show that you've made it
there at the top, you have made at
00:14:09.295 --> 00:14:12.895
the top, you make it when you come
back down to the bottom unscathed.
00:14:12.975 --> 00:14:13.965
That's success.
00:14:13.965 --> 00:14:15.825
So removing the technicalities.
00:14:15.825 --> 00:14:19.515
Then if we talk about visuals, then we
have to ask, how is it that we avoid the
00:14:19.525 --> 00:14:24.345
clichés, the mountain of it all, and the
chess strategies and the iceberg metaphor.
00:14:24.555 --> 00:14:27.705
So here what we did something with the
iceberg metaphor, because I was reflecting
00:14:27.705 --> 00:14:31.365
on that and I was thinking, you know, the
iceberg metaphor has a good story in it.
00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:34.395
It tells us that at the top you
see something small, but really
00:14:34.395 --> 00:14:35.835
what's important is underneath it.
00:14:36.075 --> 00:14:39.585
So I was challenging our designers
to say, how would you visualize
00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:41.410
there is more to the story.
00:14:41.800 --> 00:14:44.170
So we had three versions
in that presentation.
00:14:44.170 --> 00:14:48.550
One was you're seeing what would appear
as a sharkfin on top of the water, but
00:14:48.550 --> 00:14:52.630
then when you really zoom in under the
water, it is just a regular goldfish.
00:14:52.990 --> 00:14:56.590
And the other one, we were showing
a person climbing a mountain that
00:14:56.590 --> 00:14:58.600
looks like it's covered in snow.
00:14:58.959 --> 00:15:01.510
Then on click, the whole thing
rises, and that's actually
00:15:01.510 --> 00:15:03.040
the top of an ice cream cone.
00:15:03.219 --> 00:15:07.420
So because now you didn't expect that,
you see there's more to the story and that
00:15:07.420 --> 00:15:09.939
unexpected piece was a little bit unusual.
00:15:09.939 --> 00:15:14.230
Or you take any kind of stone structure,
let's just say Stonehenge, and on click,
00:15:14.230 --> 00:15:17.515
you raise it up and you see a few aliens
right underneath there in the dirt.
00:15:18.130 --> 00:15:19.450
There's more to the story.
00:15:19.780 --> 00:15:21.040
Depends on where you wanna take it.
00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:23.980
But see, you can challenge
yourself to say, look at a
00:15:23.980 --> 00:15:26.800
familiar visual and play off of it.
00:15:26.800 --> 00:15:29.320
Jolt the brain out of its habituation.
00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:31.780
Matt Abrahams: So visuals play in a
very important role, and there are
00:15:31.780 --> 00:15:35.650
things we can do through visuals to
stimulate interest and attention.
00:15:36.490 --> 00:15:37.870
Well, there you have it.
00:15:38.020 --> 00:15:42.220
Tips, tools and techniques to make your
messages more memorable and engaging.
00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:45.930
I challenge everyone to apply
Carmen's insights and advice
00:15:45.930 --> 00:15:48.360
into your upcoming communication.
00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:53.189
Thank you for joining us for this
Quick Thinks episode of Think
00:15:53.189 --> 00:15:55.110
Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
00:15:55.500 --> 00:16:00.420
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:02.130
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
00:16:02.310 --> 00:16:04.380
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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