Full Transcript for Writing From Experience with April Henry

little scooby 33 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:12,700 diver going up the side of the spine like that. 34 00:02:12,710 --> 00:02:13,960 Let me kind of, yeah. 35 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,240 Yeah, we talked about that before. 36 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:17,060 Wouldn't that be cool? 37 00:02:17,180 --> 00:02:19,500 Maybe an octopus climbing around the corner or something. 38 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:19,520 Octopus climbing. 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,160 Yeah, that would be really... 40 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,800 There's endless stuff for the AJ series I could do. 41 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,460 The AJ series got a lot of potential for that. 42 00:02:27,060 --> 00:02:31,360 Yeah, Nora could just be an image of Nora just looking at you like you're an idiot. 43 00:02:35,100 --> 00:02:39,560 I do feel like when I read your Nora books, I'm like, "Oh, it's like dealing with my teenagers." 44 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:40,840 They're just like staring at me. 45 00:02:41,460 --> 00:02:42,980 Yeah, just staring blankly. 46 00:02:42,980 --> 00:02:45,200 I feel like she judges me as I'm reading her. 47 00:02:45,340 --> 00:02:46,160 She judges everybody. 48 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:47,940 Yeah, absolutely. 49 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,740 She judges me and I'm creative. 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,980 All right, big thank you to all our friends at Patreon. 51 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,800 We really do appreciate the support. 52 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:58,760 If you think of value from the show, 53 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,160 jump on over there to patreon.com, 54 00:03:01,190 --> 00:03:02,120 the Two Authors podcast. 55 00:03:02,460 --> 00:03:03,980 Give us a little love, we appreciate it. 56 00:03:04,140 --> 00:03:07,040 And today's guest is New York Times bestselling author 57 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,720 of many acclaimed mysteries for adults 58 00:03:08,790 --> 00:03:11,320 and over $15 for teens, April Henry, 59 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:17,500 Bestselling Girls. She wrote the Bestseller Girl, Stole and Gold Forgotten. Won the Edgar Award. 60 00:03:17,940 --> 00:03:22,980 Two Truths and a Lie was the Yulsa Top 10 Quick Pick for reluctant young adult readers. I can't 61 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:30,500 wait to ask her about reluctant readers. And the girl I used to be was an Edgar Award finalist 62 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,740 and won the Antony Award for Best YA Mystery. She recently released another hit In the Blood 63 00:03:35,810 --> 00:03:39,400 for Teens and Young Adults and we'll chat with April shortly. But first, we have a listener 64 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,740 question from our recent guest, MJ Khan. 65 00:03:43,830 --> 00:03:45,260 - Our wonderful friend, MJ Khan. 66 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,040 Thank you so much for sticking around. 67 00:03:47,380 --> 00:03:50,540 And you have a question to lay on us. 68 00:03:50,650 --> 00:03:51,060 What you got? 69 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,200 - If you had to look at your flagship series 70 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,300 and step into that world, 71 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,240 would you want to be able to walk in 72 00:03:58,300 --> 00:03:59,580 your main character's shoes? 73 00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:02,820 And if you did, what skill set do they have 74 00:04:02,980 --> 00:04:04,720 that you would most cherish having? 75 00:04:05,220 --> 00:04:05,660 (laughing) 76 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,060 Man, my mind went like crazy there, right? 77 00:04:12,140 --> 00:04:15,040 So I've got three series and one I do with Doug. 78 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,420 So Nora Summer, I said, 79 00:04:18,859 --> 00:04:20,380 if anyone's read a Nora Summer book, 80 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,320 man, I think it would be interesting 81 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,440 to step into her brain, that's for sure. 82 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,740 But because my original series, the AJ Bailey series, 83 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,600 is diving related, I think I'd have to step into AJ's shoes 84 00:04:33,780 --> 00:04:34,780 to do all the diving stuff, 85 00:04:34,820 --> 00:04:36,500 'cause that would be the coolest thing ever. 86 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,120 And what is the skill? 87 00:04:38,540 --> 00:04:40,420 What is the thing, attribute that she has 88 00:04:40,660 --> 00:04:42,640 that I would most like to get my hands on? 89 00:04:42,980 --> 00:04:45,080 Well, she's female, so she has boobs, there's that. 90 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:46,100 (laughing) 91 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,020 That was the first thing that sprung to this mind. 92 00:04:49,620 --> 00:04:51,000 So you can tell where my head is. 93 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:52,480 So Doug, you wanna take over? 94 00:04:52,820 --> 00:04:54,840 - No, at this point, yes, I want to save you 95 00:04:54,860 --> 00:04:56,860 before you get canceled, so good Lord. 96 00:04:58,420 --> 00:05:01,240 I guess, you know, yeah, 'cause Chase is my, 97 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:02,820 is probably my flagship series. 98 00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:05,080 So I can jump into his life. 99 00:05:05,180 --> 00:05:06,360 He lives on a boat. 100 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,420 He lives in South Florida and he has always beautiful women. 101 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,620 So I'm not sure that that's a you're halfway to his life already. 102 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,540 I know you have a sailboat. 103 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,000 You have a beautiful wife. 104 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,940 Yeah, I just need to move to South Florida and kill a few people on the. 105 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:23,540 But let's see. 106 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,940 So and then the aspect about him, I think I kind of think the basically 107 00:05:29,260 --> 00:05:34,239 his just demeanor that is is part of like why I write him that way is 108 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,100 It's kind of a demeanor I wish I had, which is just I'm not going to put up with your 109 00:05:38,190 --> 00:05:38,320 shit. 110 00:05:38,350 --> 00:05:42,560 But at the same time, there's some compassion built in

there with a little bit of pretty 111 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,320 laid back and pretty laid back. 112 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:44,620 Yeah. 113 00:05:45,250 --> 00:05:49,360 But also, you know, he's got an opinion and he doesn't mind sharing it and that kind of 114 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:49,540 thing. 115 00:05:49,630 --> 00:05:50,840 So yeah, that's cool. 116 00:05:51,390 --> 00:05:52,840 All right, MJ, what about you? 117 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:55,860 You better you better go paranormal fantasy on this one. 118 00:05:57,380 --> 00:06:01,960 You know, if I had to step into one of mine, I don't know. 119 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,960 I mean, you know, I think that one of the paranormal's, 120 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,840 you know, my main character, you know, in that series, 121 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:09,940 yeah, is a wolf shifter. 122 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:12,420 So I just think that it would be cool just for once 123 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,260 to be able to experience the world through the eyes 124 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,900 and the ears of, you know, an animal, especially a wolf, 125 00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:20,920 something that's just high up on the predator chain. 126 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,340 Nothing I'm gonna, nothing I'm gonna like chase anybody 127 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,360 or anything, I just wanna know, it's like, you know, 128 00:06:25,740 --> 00:06:28,719 what is it like to just have all of your senses firing 129 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,160 at that type of a level for so long. 130 00:06:33,050 --> 00:06:35,940 And then my thrillers, my other flagship is the Jesse Knight 131 00:06:36,020 --> 00:06:37,700 throws in, I just don't know if I'd even wanna be 132 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,420 in that world because it's just so horrible. 133 00:06:39,950 --> 00:06:42,280 You're being hunted all the time by crazed killers. 134 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,480 And I would like to, if I had to have one of her abilities, 135 00:06:46,660 --> 00:06:50,120 it would be to always be hyper aware of my surroundings. 136 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,320 It may sound like paranoia, but at the same time, 137 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:54,720 I go through the world and I'm like, 138 00:06:54,860 --> 00:06:56,580 I don't even know how I drove home sometimes. 139 00:06:56,820 --> 00:06:57,640 I'm like, what is happening? 140 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,060 I would like to be able to pay attention to everything for Joe Smalls. 141 00:07:03,580 --> 00:07:04,040 Yeah, it's weird. 142 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,580 Like our characters like that are, they have always that super ability to just be aware. 143 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:10,460 Like, and so Chase is the same way. 144 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,420 He's always like, you know, aware of his surrounding. 145 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:13,300 What's going to be the problem? 146 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:14,840 That would be an interesting, yeah. 147 00:07:14,940 --> 00:07:16,840 To be that aware, I'm pretty oblivious. 148 00:07:17,340 --> 00:07:17,820 Oh, yeah, me too. 149 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,260 Yeah, I just, you know, I have my little rose colored glasses on. 150 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:22,960 Somebody's being stabbed over there next door. 151 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,360 And I'm like, I didn't even know what happened. 152 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:25,300 Yeah, yeah. 153 00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:27,380 Oh, are you okay? 154 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:32,380 Yeah, brilliant. Great question. Thank you so much for sticking around with us. We really appreciate it. 155 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,300 You are so welcome. Thank you guys. 156 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,820 April Henry, thank you so much for joining us on the show. How are you doing? 157 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:42,880 I'm doing great. 158 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:49,020 As we record this, a little excited because you just had a recent release. How's in the blood doing? 159 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:55,400 I think it's done pretty well. I've been on a bunch of podcasts. I had a feature in Publishers Weekly. 160 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,660 I wrote an essay for Writers Digest. I wrote another essay for School Library Journal. 161 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,740 But you never really know how things are going. And I worry a little bit as people 162 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:12,900 are watching costs climb and gas cost so much money, whether there's going to be free money to buy books. 163 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:19,420 It's definitely a thing at the moment as we're both Indies. So we get that instant feedback 164 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:25,700 because we see those numbers, especially if you're through Amazon, if you're through some of the 165 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:29,520 feedback in a day or two, you kind of get an idea. But, you know, when we talk to a 166 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:36,000 traditionally published authors, they're like, "I think it's going okay. It'll be a 167 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:40,320 month or two until I really know." All right. Let's get started with a little bit of background. 168 00:08:40,460 --> 00:08:44,440 How did you first get involved in writing and when were you first published? 169 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,540 Well, when I was a little kid, I loved to read. And I started when I was about 11 or 12 thinking 170 00:08:49,700 --> 00:08:55,060 about whether I could write my own short stories. So I wrote a short story about a six-foot 171 00:08:55,060 --> 00:08:57,460 a tall frog named Herman who loved peanut butter. 172 00:08:58,020 --> 00:08:59,680 And I decided the Royal Doll, you know, 173 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,160 who wrote Matilda and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, 174 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,300 I thought, I bet he would like my story. 175 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,500 So my dad showed me how in the front of the book 176 00:09:06,980 --> 00:09:08,380 it has the address to the publisher. 177 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:11,180 He said, why don't you try sending your story care

178 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:12,780 of the publisher to Royal Doll? 179 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:14,540 So I sent it off to New York 180 00:09:14,740 --> 00:09:16,340 and eventually it made its way over to England. 181 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,640 And then eventually, eventually Royal Doll 182 00:09:18,780 --> 00:09:20,980 sent me back a postcard telling me 183 00:09:21,020 --> 00:09:22,500 how much he liked my story. 184 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:24,720 And he actually took it with him to lunch. 185 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:26,420 He showed it to his editor 186 00:09:26,450 --> 00:09:28,740 and she had a children's magazine called Puffin Post. 187 00:09:29,500 --> 00:09:31,520 And she asked if she could publish my story. 188 00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:35,320 So, "Roll doll kind of made me be a writer." 189 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,660 - Wow. - Oh my God, what a story. 190 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:39,360 Tell me you've still got the postcard. 191 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:41,880 - I do, I still have a postcard. 192 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,200 - For, you know, we're audio, not video, 193 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,300 but this is framed right here. 194 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:48,300 She just showed it to us. 195 00:09:48,510 --> 00:09:49,760 - That is really cool. 196 00:09:50,060 --> 00:09:53,540 Man, Royal Doll is like, I mean, we all grew up with him. 197 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,440 - Yes, I just finished listening to the podcast, 198 00:09:56,650 --> 00:09:59,200 The Secret Royal Doll, which I would really recommend. 199 00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:04,600 He was a fighter pilot, a spy, a medical inventor. 200 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,920 There's many sides to him. 201 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:08,840 Some not as great. 202 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:10,160 (laughing) 203 00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:15,460 - But he was a superb critic of young girls' 204 00:10:16,220 --> 00:10:17,320 short stories, apparently. 205 00:10:17,690 --> 00:10:19,180 - And great, so encouraging. 206 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:21,680 Like he basically, I mean, had he not said that, 207 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,760 said that postcard to you probably spurred you on to do. 208 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:26,940 So like, I would be like, oh yeah, I can write forever. 209 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:28,140 So, uh... 210 00:10:28,180 --> 00:10:29,980 - Well, if actually what happened was, 211 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,060 I was growing up in a little logging town in Southern Oregon. 212 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:36,660 And so as I got older, I didn't know any writers. 213 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,200 It felt like wanting to be a magical unicorn. 214 00:10:39,340 --> 00:10:41,500 I mean, it'd be cool if we were magical unicorns, 215 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:44,640 but I just thought that there's no way somebody like me, 216 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,920 I felt like, yeah, I'd probably be born in New York 217 00:10:47,020 --> 00:10:48,500 or San Francisco or something. 218 00:10:48,620 --> 00:10:52,840 So I stopped writing

and I didn't start writing again until I was about 30. 219 00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:55,880 And then I read a book from the library that was really bad. 220 00:10:56,580 --> 00:11:01,760 And I was like mad at it after I finished it. 221 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,180 I was like, what a waste of time. 222 00:11:03,860 --> 00:11:06,980 And then I saw it had been published by one of the biggest publishers. 223 00:11:07,220 --> 00:11:10,180 And I was like, wait, oh, I thought you were going to say it was a Doug Pratt. 224 00:11:13,220 --> 00:11:15,140 I was like, I could write a book as bad as that. 225 00:11:16,380 --> 00:11:17,380 That's all you need to do. 226 00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:25,040 So, but it wasn't until I wrote a first book that got 107 rejection letters from agents. 227 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:32,240 I wrote a second book that got 53 rejections from agents, but then the 54th lady called me from New 228 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,360 York and she said she wanted to be my agent. She took that book out to editors to try to sell it. 229 00:11:37,860 --> 00:11:41,979 We got a bunch of nice rejection letters. I know they were nice rejection letters because I wrote 230 00:11:41,980 --> 00:11:49,080 a third book and it didn't even get nice rejection letters. And then I wrote a fourth book and 231 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:54,120 it sold in two days. So it started saying I was an overnight success and it was like 232 00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:56,320 it took me nine years to be an overnight success. 233 00:11:57,420 --> 00:11:58,700 Oh my gosh, what a brutal day. 234 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:00,140 It's a very long night, wouldn't it? 235 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,360 Yes. It's a very long night. 236 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:09,099 12 years old, you have this amazing, encouraging, beautiful experience with Raul Dahl, only to 237 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:12,880 go, "Okay, later on, I'm going to give this a real go." And then you get slapped around 238 00:12:12,980 --> 00:12:18,960 the face like 200 times. That's the real awakening of the publishing business. 239 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:25,100 So now you went full-time though. How long ago was that that you went there? 240 00:12:25,460 --> 00:12:35,339 Quit my day job February 1st, 2008. And I remember just really wanting to throw up. I quit it 241 00:12:35,340 --> 00:12:37,040 - I think February 1st, so that I would have 242 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:39,900 the full month of health insurance after that. 243 00:12:40,340 --> 00:12:40,720 - Yeah. 244 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,380 - But 2008, think about that. 245 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,600 What was going on in, especially in America, 246 00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:47,300 but in the world? 247 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:48,660 - Oh yes, yes. 248 00:12:49,940 --> 00:12:51,940 I was watching the stock market take 249 00:12:52,140 --> 00:12:54,120 and wondering what was gonna happen. 250 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:56,320 And it all worked out. 251 00:12:57,020 --> 00:12:59,380 There's been times where I've taught 252 00:12:59,650 --> 00:13:01,060 a little bit on the side, 253 00:13:02,460 --> 00:13:04,800 or trying to think what else I did for money. 254 00:13:05,020 --> 00:13:06,280 You know, every now and then you're like, 255 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,080 because what happens when you go freelance 256 00:13:09,420 --> 00:13:13,040 is the money that you expected to come in at a certain time. 257 00:13:13,580 --> 00:13:15,060 Turns out it's gonna be really late 258 00:13:15,490 --> 00:13:18,180 and money that you didn't know about happens 259 00:13:18,860 --> 00:13:21,640 and it more or less works out in the wash. 260 00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:25,460 More or less, there are, we have some panicky times 261 00:13:26,060 --> 00:13:27,320 and luckily for a long time, 262 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:30,760 my husband carried the health insurance for us 263 00:13:30,940 --> 00:13:33,779 and worked full time, but then he went freelance 264 00:13:33,780 --> 00:13:36,220 And we both, that was interesting. 265 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,720 - That's such a big deal in the US 266 00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:43,520 where health insurance is so pricey. 267 00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:47,200 It's a big, big deal for authors to go. 268 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:49,540 Once you go self-employed, it's a big step. 269 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,820 - Well, they hooked it up with employment 270 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,140 back when there was, you couldn't pay people more money. 271 00:13:55,580 --> 00:13:58,000 There was some kind of price controls are going on. 272 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,040 So the employers were looking around for a way 273 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,040 to make themselves more attractive. 274 00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:05,320 And they said, oh, what if we bundled health insurance 275 00:14:06,130 --> 00:14:06,660 in with it? 276 00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:09,880 And then that, unfortunately, now it's all connected, 277 00:14:10,060 --> 00:14:12,900 but most jobs don't even offer it anymore. 278 00:14:13,570 --> 00:14:14,860 A lot of the lower level ones. 279 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:17,320 - Or an order, an order so, yeah, 280 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,080 the cost for it is insane. 281 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:20,120 Yeah, it's insane. 282 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:21,140 Yeah, it's always crazy. 283 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:22,360 Yeah, I don't know. 284 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,520 That's part of the reason I'm unemployable, I think. 285 00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:25,820 That's what I was thinking. 286 00:14:26,210 --> 00:14:26,300 (laughing) 287 00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:27,040 - Yeah. 288 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:28,560 - Which, that sounds like, I mean, 289 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,660 I went full time in 2020, 290 00:14:30,750 --> 00:14:32,360 but I quit right before the pandemic. 291 00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:34,400 And I was like, man, if I'd have waited a couple of weeks, 292 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,700 I could have probably been put on like a hiatus

293 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:37,960 for my job anyway. 294 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,400 And still been paid for a little bit. 295 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,820 But no, I was like, no, January, 296 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:44,080 I'm like quit right now the whole time. 297 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,360 - Seemed like a good point to start. 298 00:14:47,740 --> 00:14:49,400 - It seemed like, well, I thought I was gonna be able 299 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,560 to be home with everybody myself and be some writing, 300 00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:53,580 but then no, everybody was home with me. 301 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:55,100 So that didn't help any so. 302 00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:58,580 - Okay, so one of the things that I read about 303 00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:00,739 that happened to you was this ordeal 304 00:15:00,740 --> 00:15:03,160 where someone broke into your home? 305 00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:05,800 - Yes, I broke into my apartment 306 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,380 when I was a college student 307 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:10,280 and I really think it's what made me be a mystery writer. 308 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,100 So I lived in these old ramshackle apartments 309 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,660 and there was a retaining wall behind them 310 00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:17,960 because the hill was gradually sliding down. 311 00:15:18,580 --> 00:15:21,960 And so the retaining wall was only like a foot away. 312 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,080 So most people didn't bother to put curtains back up there 313 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,340 'cause then why would you bother? 314 00:15:26,460 --> 00:15:27,260 It's just a wall. 315 00:15:27,940 --> 00:15:30,060 And I was, this was so long ago, 316 00:15:30,220 --> 00:15:31,960 I was doing Jane Fonda exercises. 317 00:15:33,139 --> 00:15:37,360 And I kept hearing rustling, and I thought it was raccoons. 318 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,360 And then I went to take a shower, 319 00:15:39,580 --> 00:15:43,160 and I'm in my shower in this apartment 320 00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:45,560 where the bathroom door was warped. 321 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:48,220 It did not even fit all the way into the frame, 322 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,380 so you couldn't close it all the way. 323 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:51,760 - Nice apartment you got there. 324 00:15:51,820 --> 00:15:54,320 - Yeah, this is college, true college digs. 325 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:55,520 - It is college. 326 00:15:56,140 --> 00:15:59,659 So I heard the sound of somebody forcing open 327 00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:04,820 kitchen window and I'll never forget just turning off the water and standing there and staring at 328 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:10,520 the door that is just kind of stuck but is not going to be lockable and then the window behind 329 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:17,320 me was too small and it was painted shut and I'm like naked and wet and I'm like oh my god there's 330 00:16:17,420 --> 00:16:23,400 someone in my apartment so I pulled on some clothes and I walked out into

the hall and it was all 331 00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:29,640 dark except for a light the bathroom light behind me and I just stopped and I said who's in my kitchen 332 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,660 And he didn't say anything, but I heard him breathing. 333 00:16:32,220 --> 00:16:34,940 And then I heard a little voice in the back of my head, 334 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:37,080 and it said, you're an idiot. 335 00:16:37,340 --> 00:16:38,140 You need to run. 336 00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:38,840 [LAUGHTER] 337 00:16:39,580 --> 00:16:45,400 So I ran, and I was too afraid to reach back into the apartment 338 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,900 to close the door behind me, because I thought he would grab me. 339 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:50,020 And I knocked on my neighbor's door. 340 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:51,400 He was going to law school. 341 00:16:52,270 --> 00:16:53,740 I mean, we really looked to site, because he 342 00:16:53,780 --> 00:16:55,580 was wearing these little tiny bikini briefs, 343 00:16:55,620 --> 00:16:57,480 and I'm in this soaking wet leotard. 344 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,640 And he was like, let's call that new emergency number 119. 345 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,360 And I was like, I think it's 911, Howard. 346 00:17:06,199 --> 00:17:06,600 (laughing) 347 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:08,640 The police came-- 348 00:17:08,699 --> 00:17:10,140 - Howard sound like he was-- 349 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,540 - Well, she banged on the door of a lawyer. 350 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,140 You couldn't find somebody who'd be, 351 00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,660 what's he gonna sue the guy while he's still in the place? 352 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:17,980 - He was in law school. 353 00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:18,699 - Oh, right. 354 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,579 - I think the kidney briefs are the one 355 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:21,839 that really sells it. 356 00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:24,459 - Okay, so Howard had been smoking pot. 357 00:17:25,980 --> 00:17:28,580 - I assumed Howard was probably smoking something. 358 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,020 - It was not legal. 359 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,840 So he was, after he called the police, 360 00:17:32,910 --> 00:17:34,320 he had all the windows open 361 00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:36,940 and he's running around flapping his arms, 362 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:38,840 trying to get the smoke smell out. 363 00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:42,720 And the cops showed up and we went back into my apartment 364 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:43,960 and he was gone. 365 00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:46,720 And then we were talking and there was a thump 366 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,920 from my bedroom and both cops threw their guns 367 00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:51,540 and pointed them down the hallway 368 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:53,640 and then out walked to my cat. 369 00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:55,860 It was like a bad jump scare in a horror movie. 370 00:17:56,170 --> 00:17:56,700 - Oh my God. 371 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,900 So we were all laughing and then they said, 372 00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:00,960 "Did he take anything?" 373 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,040 And I said, "The only thing that's missing is my dish towels." 374 00:18:04,060 --> 00:18:05,220 And I thought that was funny. 375 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:06,660 I started laughing about that. 376 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,940 And the male cop looked at me and he said, 377 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,800 "Ma'am, he was gonna tie you up with them." 378 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,640 So I could have died that night. 379 00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:16,680 I definitely would have been raped and possibly murdered. 380 00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:20,200 A couple of years ago, I got curious and I looked for that. 381 00:18:20,940 --> 00:18:24,300 There's a website for unsolved homicides in Portland. 382 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,860 I looked for my year and I looked for women. 383 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,720 And there was a girl that was going to Portland State 384 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,280 the same as I was who lived three miles away. 385 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,480 And two months later, she was strangled in her apartment 386 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,740 and they've never caught the killer. 387 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,540 It could just be a coincidence, 388 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,960 but I remember looking at her face and just thinking, 389 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,240 "Wow, that could have been me." 390 00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:49,760 But I think like for a long time, I didn't think about it. 391 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,320 I just pushed it away, but it made it be 392 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,480 that every time I read a story about some woman 393 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,700 where an escaped prisoner breaks into her house 394 00:18:58,180 --> 00:18:59,540 or something like that, I'll think, 395 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,580 could I survive that situation? 396 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,500 What would I do if I were her? 397 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,760 And I think it started planning the seeds for me, 398 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,540 writing thrillers and mysteries. 399 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,680 - And now a quick word from this episode sponsor. 400 00:19:12,220 --> 00:19:14,560 - Eloisa James, New York Times bestseller, 401 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,080 30 plus novels, millions of copies, 402 00:19:17,340 --> 00:19:20,019 and a Shakespeare professor at Fordham 403 00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:24,900 is coming to Author Nation to teach how best sellers actually get written. 404 00:19:25,580 --> 00:19:26,860 Not luck, craft. 405 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,160 Come learn how the list gets made. 406 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,580 Sign up at AuthorNation.Live. 407 00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:35,860 I have a million questions that spur from this thing. 408 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,320 What a terrifying experience. 409 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:43,780 So I mean, the first, I mean, when you're writing and you're writing from a victim's 410 00:19:43,780 --> 00:19:49,980

perspective, you have one of the best pieces of experience to 411 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,580 write from. I can only imagine how authentic those scenes you 412 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:57,220 write are. It had to have as traumatic as it is, it has to 413 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,400 have the looking at the positives, it has to have 414 00:19:59,440 --> 00:19:59,680 helped. 415 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:03,300 That I think it did, I think it did very much. And then I try to 416 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:07,680 write characters who are are smart. And if you're smart, and 417 00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:13,760 you are calm, maybe you could think of something to do. I 418 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,080 I would have been able to think of something to do, 419 00:20:16,180 --> 00:20:18,400 but I don't know, sometimes I feel like you 420 00:20:18,410 --> 00:20:20,980 in your imagination, you're always a lot more clever 421 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:23,420 and fast moving and fast thinking, 422 00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:26,080 whereas in reality, maybe you're just like panicked 423 00:20:26,140 --> 00:20:28,480 and going, "Oh my God, oh my God." 424 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:31,440 - As a general rule, I'm always not as fast 425 00:20:31,540 --> 00:20:33,720 and quick thinking as I think I am anyway. 426 00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:36,140 So I can't imagine in a situation like that. 427 00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:41,160 - It's also comfort levels in circumstances. 428 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,880 the circumstance, you're not in. You're never in, right? I mean, you're never in that environment. 429 00:20:47,460 --> 00:20:54,020 He is. This is what he does. He's there for the purpose with a goal, and he's putting himself 430 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,120 in an environment that he deliberately put himself into. And that's one of the... 431 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:57,600 And he shows it, right? 432 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:58,380 Yeah. Yeah. 433 00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:04,200 The other thing is that your reaction in the moment actually seems pretty straight, 434 00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:08,960 clear-headed to the most part, like as opposed to just panicking. You just realized, run. You know, 435 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,620 Some people get that panic and just freeze. 436 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,380 So you, that's, and that's a different kind of psychology altogether. 437 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:15,200 Yeah. 438 00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:20,980 They do talk about fight, flight or freeze, you know, that those are the three things. 439 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,280 And I do Brazilian jujitsu now. 440 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,540 And I do think that at least it would get past me, past the shock of someone 441 00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:31,280 just hurt me or something that I had. 442 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:36,919 I, I hope that I wouldn't freeze as much that I would be, you know, move on from 443 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,420 that other than the shock. 444 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,540 Was that interest in martial arts spurred by this incident? 445 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,820 It was quite a few years later. 446 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,340 I took a kickboxing class that was a hands off and you just kicked bags. 447 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:49,800 But it was really fun. 448 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,920 And the guy who taught it, we had a black belt in a different martial 449 00:21:53,060 --> 00:21:54,340 out, Kachikambo. 450 00:21:54,940 --> 00:21:57,020 So he started teaching us Kachikambo. 451 00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:01,360 And then I went from there to Kung Fu and then I went from there to Jiu Jitsu. 452 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,800 I don't think I have the knees anymore to do Kung Fu. 453 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,460 There's a lot of like horse stance squats for a long time. 454 00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:11,680 And I don't think my knees would do that anymore. 455 00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:15,620 - Yeah, I used to do a little taekwondo. 456 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,640 I can imagine now my knees would be cracking 457 00:22:17,780 --> 00:22:18,820 every time I went to the kick. 458 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:19,720 (laughing) 459 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,580 Was that the board cracking dope? 460 00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:22,360 That was my knee. 461 00:22:22,620 --> 00:22:23,620 It was my knee cracking. 462 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,740 You're also really big into research. 463 00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:29,580 So I mean, you've done like some live abduction escape stuff. 464 00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:33,100 - Yeah, that was probably the craziest class I ever took. 465 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,520 It was called urban escape and evasion. 466 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,760 It's for people who are already about being kidnapped. 467 00:22:38,380 --> 00:22:40,720 So the kinds of people who took out were like reporters, 468 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:43,200 who maybe you're gonna go work in Ukraine or something. 469 00:22:43,860 --> 00:22:47,900 It's people who are gonna be in an unstable, poor country. 470 00:22:48,460 --> 00:22:50,980 Like there was a woman who went on safari recently 471 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:54,160 that was kidnapped, or if you're gonna do a mission trip 472 00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:56,460 overseas to an unstable country. 473 00:22:56,980 --> 00:22:58,500 And then the other people who took the class 474 00:22:58,660 --> 00:23:01,220 were preppers and crazy people. 475 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:01,720 So. 476 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:02,800 (laughing) 477 00:23:04,190 --> 00:23:05,600 - Often used in the same sentence. 478 00:23:06,370 --> 00:23:08,360 - Are you talking real crazy people or authors? 479 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:09,540 Because you know they-- 480 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:10,240 - Well, we heard them. 481 00:23:10,780 --> 00:23:12,760 I was the first author to take it 482 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,540 and then I asked an author friend of mine to come with me 483 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:16,920 because on the last day, 484 00:23:17,540

--> 00:23:20,340 since what you do something stuff that's pretty dangerous, 485 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,860 they want you to partner up with their idea. 486 00:23:22,860 --> 00:23:25,060 I guess one of you would survive or something. 487 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:25,440 So. 488 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:26,680 (laughing) 489 00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:30,320 We spent like two days in a hotel room 490 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,320 learning how to get out of duct tape and rope 491 00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:35,680 and zip ties, handcuffs, how to steal a car, 492 00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:37,520 how to make an improvised weapon, 493 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:40,520 how to make fake ID, how to pick locks. 494 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,700 It was just all kinds of like how to climb a barb wire fence. 495 00:23:45,260 --> 00:23:46,520 A lot of it was hands-on. 496 00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:48,040 The only thing we actually didn't practice 497 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,120 was stealing a car. 498 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,840 And the last day you are-- 499 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,500 - I know a guy that can help you do that here in Memphis. 500 00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:53,700 - Yeah. 501 00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:55,760 The person who was leading the class 502 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,960 actually offered to sell us bump keys 503 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,400 that I was like, I don't feel comfortable to buy. 504 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:02,560 (laughing) 505 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:04,960 Yeah, the people who led the class 506 00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:08,340 were not the most normal people. 507 00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:12,920 So there was one guy who was like the handcuff expert, 508 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,500 but he was boasting about how he had smuggled something 509 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,820 out of a country that he wasn't supposed to take out. 510 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:19,860 I can't remember what it was, 511 00:24:20,540 --> 00:24:24,460 but his big trick was that he would wrap the thing 512 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,940 he wanted them not to look at in underwear 513 00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:30,640 would smear a chocolate candy all over the underwear. 514 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,420 So when the person would be going through his bag, 515 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,600 they'd be like, "Eh!" 516 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,120 And they wouldn't touch it 517 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,500 because of what they thought it was, 518 00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:40,440 but it was really just a chocolate candy. 519 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,760 So he had more of a criminal mind than I have, I think. 520 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,160 - Yeah, I feel like if I, 521 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,440 why would someone pack soiled underwear? 522 00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:52,040 I mean, that's a bit suspicious right out of the gate. 523 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,200 - If you're on a trip though, 524 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,220 and you soil your underwear, 525 00:24:54,290 --> 00:24:55,620 when you get

it, I mean, I would throw it away, 526 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:56,900 probably, I guess, under where it is. 527 00:24:57,740 --> 00:24:58,500 I'm going Commando. 528 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,240 - You're like, "Yeah." 529 00:25:00,380 --> 00:25:00,700 (laughing) 530 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,560 - I'm Commando right now. 531 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,900 - I was saying, this guy was a Commando, 532 00:25:05,020 --> 00:25:06,120 you heard him, he was like. 533 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:06,740 (laughing) 534 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,000 - All right, books, let's get back. 535 00:25:09,220 --> 00:25:10,180 Let's get back on track. 536 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:11,980 All right, you're a big researcher. 537 00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:16,200 You, I read that you really like to dive in 538 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,660 and that's some cases of physically pursuing stuff. 539 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,860 But presumably you do a lot of research online 540 00:25:23,140 --> 00:25:25,540 and what have you to study the situations as well. 541 00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:27,180 Do you have a level of comfort? 542 00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:29,800 you have to get to, to be able to write those scenes? 543 00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:32,000 - I'm not a very squeamish person. 544 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:33,820 There's like, I have-- 545 00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:35,300 - We've learned that real quick. 546 00:25:35,780 --> 00:25:36,220 (laughing) 547 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,680 - I have eaten lunch and looked at autopsy photos. 548 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,940 There's only been one thing I saw 549 00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:44,100 and one thing I heard one time 550 00:25:44,220 --> 00:25:46,300 that I wish both of those things hadn't happened. 551 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,000 But, and then I think also it's just 552 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,100 trying to be imaginative for what you look for. 553 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,640 And like certain things I'm just not willing 554 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:55,840 to experience myself. 555 00:25:56,060 --> 00:25:58,900 If I want to have a character who almost drowns in the ocean, 556 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:01,980 I'm not going to go throw myself out in the ocean and make notes. 557 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,320 I'm just going to Google until-- 558 00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:05,760 So find somebody who did-- 559 00:26:05,780 --> 00:26:07,480 I almost drowned in the ocean. 560 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:09,480 And then you find someone's personal account. 561 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,720 And then you can use some of the sensory details 562 00:26:13,060 --> 00:26:14,500 if you're lucky they talk about it. 563 00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:18,240 Or I've looked for what does it feel like to be shot by a gun? 564 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,780 Does it-- how bad does it feel? 565 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,220 But I feel like I'm a really good Googler. 566 00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:27,860 I could find almost anything over time. 567 00:26:28,580 --> 00:26:31,300 So for my new

book, I had these characters 568 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,120 who were trapped in a storage unit 569 00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:38,320 to characters by a bad guy and he set it on fire. 570 00:26:39,020 --> 00:26:42,500 And then I tried Googling about fires in storage units. 571 00:26:42,660 --> 00:26:45,300 Lots of people have died in storage unit fires, 572 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,940 usually people who are living in their storage unit 573 00:26:48,060 --> 00:26:49,660 and drop a cigarette or something. 574 00:26:49,940 --> 00:26:53,660 So I just could not figure out a way for them to survive. 575 00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:57,800 And we even had a storage unit at the time and I would go down and look at it and I just 576 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,240 couldn't see how it would work. 577 00:26:59,540 --> 00:27:06,320 But I found a thing called storage unit chat or something and it was for people who were 578 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:13,120 the owners of storage unit facilities and I got special permission to join the group 579 00:27:13,780 --> 00:27:16,980 and then I posted like how can I get these characters out alive. 580 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,660 Because I was creating an imaginary storage unit but I did not want it to be like oh there's 581 00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:25,440 There's a second door nobody noticed or whatever. 582 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:27,820 And so the people were really helpful. 583 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:32,400 And then the one who was the most helpful, his username was HilltopBob. 584 00:27:33,220 --> 00:27:38,060 And I just sent him a copy of the book so that he could -- and thanked him in the acknowledgments 585 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:39,680 for helping me figure it out. 586 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,860 >> Those forums are really -- I've used Reddit in similar ways. 587 00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:44,940 >> Yes, Reddit can be useful. 588 00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:46,740 >> I had a skydiving question. 589 00:27:46,860 --> 00:27:47,740 I'm not a skydiver. 590 00:27:47,910 --> 00:27:50,740 I thought I'm opposed, but I was curious about -- it was more advanced. 591 00:27:51,380 --> 00:27:52,120 I posed the question. 592 00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:54,040 You get a few people who are like, 593 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:55,480 "Well, this is a stupid question." 594 00:27:56,380 --> 00:27:57,860 Then they have a handful be like, "No, no, 595 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:58,700 they really get involved. 596 00:27:58,780 --> 00:28:00,080 Oh, no, you could do this." 597 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,680 And it's amazing how much people really want to help you. 598 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:03,960 And you help you, yeah. 599 00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:05,300 So-- 600 00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:06,240 - Have you never skydived? 601 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:07,480 - I have never skydived. 602 00:28:07,820 --> 00:28:08,840 It's on my bucket list. 603 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:09,960 - You should, yeah. 604 00:28:10,030 --> 00:28:10,560 - We should do it. 605 00:28:10,620 --> 00:28:11,040 Let's do it. 606 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:11,560 - I've done it. 607 00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:12,620 - I'm sure you have. 608 00:28:12,820 --> 00:28:14,200 - I fell out of a plane with a parachute. 609 00:28:14,740 --> 00:28:15,160 - We could do it. 610 00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:18,220 Two authors, you know, a little bit on the way down. 611 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:20,720 (laughing) 612 00:28:21,860 --> 00:28:22,520 - All right. - Listen to us, 613 00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:23,340 listen to us, yeah. 614 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:25,740 - Yeah, really. - We digress there. 615 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,100 - Yeah, yeah, we tend to do this. 616 00:28:27,220 --> 00:28:29,900 All right, so let's talk about your process a little bit. 617 00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:30,880 Are you a plotter? 618 00:28:31,180 --> 00:28:33,580 - I am a plancer. 619 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,960 I plot and pants, kind of. 620 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,760 So I'm working on a new book. 621 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,960 - Join our club, that's our club right here. 622 00:28:40,340 --> 00:28:41,980 - I'm working on a new book right now 623 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:44,660 and I really love Save the Cat. 624 00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:48,660 And so I'm going through the Save the Cat beats 625 00:28:48,940 --> 00:28:51,000 and using kind of structure, the story, 626 00:28:51,620 --> 00:28:54,600 and think about where is the all is lost moment 627 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,680 or where's the fun and games and what's gonna be in it. 628 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,720 But what I've found is if you plot in advance, 629 00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:07,400 'cause I usually sell on a couple of chapters in an outline. 630 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,080 So, but they don't ever make me stick to the outline 631 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,560 because a lot of times I find that you planned out 632 00:29:14,660 --> 00:29:17,060 something was gonna happen, but by the time you get there, 633 00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:19,340 you realize that character would never do the thing 634 00:29:19,340 --> 00:29:21,320 that you plan, so you have to change it. 635 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,160 But I've noticed that I've been kind of dragging my feet 636 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,280 a little bit and I think it's because I feel like I don't 637 00:29:28,330 --> 00:29:31,120 have a perfect way to begin it, but I can't let the perfect 638 00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:32,320 be the enemy of the good. 639 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,940 I need to stop plotting and start writing. 640 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:35,940 - Yep, yep. 641 00:29:36,140 --> 00:29:37,400 Once you start getting it down there, 642 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,400 then it opens the doors, right? 643 00:29:39,820 --> 00:29:41,860 - Let's talk about your most recent release then, 644 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,560 "In the Blood," which I guess I might say, 645 00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:47,560 this is kind of like your own genetic genealogy journey. 646 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:49,360

In some ways it was. 647 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,820 So I've always been interested in genetic genealogy. 648 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,140 Of course, that's not really been a thing 649 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,780 until recently or the last 25 years or something. 650 00:29:59,940 --> 00:30:02,080 So after my parents died, 651 00:30:02,780 --> 00:30:04,180 I inherited a bunch of photographs 652 00:30:04,270 --> 00:30:05,860 and I wanted to know who these people were 653 00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:07,260 and they were mostly unlabeled 654 00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:08,700 and some of them were like tin types. 655 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,220 And a few of them said useful things like mother on the back. 656 00:30:12,860 --> 00:30:13,740 (all laughing) 657 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:14,640 - Of course. 658 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,520 - So I was like, who are these people? 659 00:30:17,740 --> 00:30:18,440 - Little John. 660 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,540 - Yes, I paid to have all three of my brother 661 00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:25,620 and my sister and I DNA tested 662 00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:27,260 and I started building a family tree. 663 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,580 Then I started realizing there's pieces that people 664 00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:33,220 that show that they're like my second cousin 665 00:30:33,380 --> 00:30:35,660 but their family tree doesn't have any of the names. 666 00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:37,080 My family tree, hasn't it? 667 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,840 And when found a few people that were, you know, 668 00:30:40,060 --> 00:30:43,340 their dad on paper wasn't their dad in real life 669 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,120 and that's how we were related. 670 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:46,820 It's a really fun puzzle. 671 00:30:47,020 --> 00:30:49,320 if you guys were looking for something to do for a good year. 672 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:50,840 (laughing) 673 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,440 It will keep you occupied. 674 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,600 - I have done some genealogy and I enjoy it. 675 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,460 Like it's a lot, the history of it is always fascinating 676 00:30:58,570 --> 00:31:00,780 to see like your family history in that way. 677 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:01,520 - Yeah. 678 00:31:01,790 --> 00:31:02,340 - And then I just-- 679 00:31:02,340 --> 00:31:03,680 - And see if you can get to the stories 680 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:04,560 that go behind it. 681 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:04,900 So. 682 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,440 - Which you have a few. 683 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:07,400 - Yeah. 684 00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:11,220 I had found out just through Googling my grandmother. 685 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,260 I was curious about her and luckily she has a weird name 686 00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:17,040 or had a weird name, Effie Satterwhite. 687 00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:19,640 So when I Googled her, I found this whole Arkansas State 688 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,580 Supreme Court case from 1907. 689 00:31:22,260 --> 00:31:24,280

I just thought it was someone with the same weird name, 690 00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:27,000 but it turned out it was her when she was 18. 691 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,500 Her dad, my great-grandfather, shot and killed her boyfriend 692 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:32,460 for kissing her. 693 00:31:33,260 --> 00:31:34,640 So I was like-- 694 00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:35,680 - Well, that is Arkansas. 695 00:31:36,020 --> 00:31:37,540 I mean, they weren't related, so. 696 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:38,120 (laughs) 697 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,680 - It kind of explained why she was always 698 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,380 kind of a bitter person, because his entire defense 699 00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:45,880 was kind of like slut shaming. 700 00:31:46,060 --> 00:31:49,060 He was like, oh, I wouldn't have had to shoot him, 701 00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:51,760 but my daughter wouldn't stop kissing him. 702 00:31:51,980 --> 00:31:54,200 So, and he couldn't trust her. 703 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,520 He said he had to defend her virtue. 704 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,360 So I was like, well, that makes a lot of sense. 705 00:32:00,460 --> 00:32:02,620 No wonder she didn't get married until she was 30, 706 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:03,220 didn't have her. 707 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,680 - She couldn't get married until her dad died. 708 00:32:07,340 --> 00:32:09,460 - How could you find a new boyfriend 709 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,460 if your dad murdered the last one? 710 00:32:11,580 --> 00:32:12,120 - Exactly. 711 00:32:12,380 --> 00:32:14,160 - But the family hushed it all up. 712 00:32:14,260 --> 00:32:17,180 there's not really hardly any references to it. 713 00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:19,880 Someone else I know has a letter where they just talk 714 00:32:19,980 --> 00:32:24,020 about how now that Papa is away and away was prison. 715 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,420 Yeah, so, and then I started getting curious 716 00:32:28,540 --> 00:32:31,200 about other relatives that turned out another paternal, 717 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,780 maternal great grandfather was an arsonist 718 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,160 who died in an insane asylum. 719 00:32:40,099 --> 00:32:44,240 There's over the pandemic, I found out that my 720 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:51,900 great grandfather was basically lied his way through all these military things and then 721 00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:54,820 faked his own death and got married two more times. 722 00:32:55,540 --> 00:32:56,140 Oh my gosh. 723 00:32:56,370 --> 00:32:58,060 So I come from a long line of criminals. 724 00:32:59,060 --> 00:33:03,000 Yeah, I love the way that you've taken this gene pool and channeled it into books. 725 00:33:03,580 --> 00:33:07,840 You've taken all of this stuff and you write it into books instead of acting out. 726 00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:12,360 I mean, maybe in your spare time, your hobby is setting fire to people, but it doesn't 727 00:33:12,410 --> 00:33:13,080 seem like it is. 728 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:14,600 It

seems like it all goes in the books. 729 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,440 - That's how she writes such good books. 730 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,140 She likes like, hey, I like the research. 731 00:33:18,540 --> 00:33:18,860 (laughing) 732 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,700 - Well, I'm not gonna be like, 733 00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:22,860 it seems like anymore, 734 00:33:22,940 --> 00:33:24,780 anytime anyone is arrested for murder, 735 00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:26,540 it's like on his phone, 736 00:33:26,580 --> 00:33:31,540 it will say like, how dispose of a 142-town body, you know? 737 00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:35,560 - I do feel like we as writers would get away with murder 738 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,180 a whole lot better than some other people. 739 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,440 - Yeah, we have cover, 740 00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:41,060 'cause it's all gonna be blended in with everything else. 741 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,860 - Until they look at all sorts of history, 742 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,520 - Yeah, but all you gotta do is write a book about it. 743 00:33:47,660 --> 00:33:49,580 And then why would I do that? 744 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,840 Why would I kill somebody and write a book just like it? 745 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:52,960 That doesn't make any sense. 746 00:33:53,220 --> 00:33:55,520 It's somebody obviously read it and tried to frame me. 747 00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:57,700 I don't know, I think we'd get away with it. 748 00:33:57,820 --> 00:34:00,060 So as we say this on the line, on airs. 749 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,180 - Yeah, yeah, yeah. 750 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,440 Well, perfectly, all they need to do is listen 751 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:06,540 to this podcast and they'll go, 752 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:07,900 "Well, those guys are all cool too." 753 00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:08,740 - I know those guys, yeah. 754 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,660 - All right, so the genealogy part of it 755 00:34:11,659 --> 00:34:12,720 is absolutely fascinating. 756 00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:15,679 So you built this into the story and in the blood 757 00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:17,500 and how does it frame in the story? 758 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,700 - Well, I had a girl who's adopted 759 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,740 and she's very curious about her adopted parents 760 00:34:22,919 --> 00:34:25,639 and like a lot of adopted kids, she has these fantasies 761 00:34:26,139 --> 00:34:27,980 about who are her parents? 762 00:34:28,090 --> 00:34:29,639 Are they actors? 763 00:34:29,830 --> 00:34:30,700 Are they famous? 764 00:34:30,929 --> 00:34:31,659 Are they scientists? 765 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,560 What was it about them? 766 00:34:33,659 --> 00:34:36,919 And she takes a DNA test when she turns 18 767 00:34:37,620 --> 00:34:40,000 and she starts trying to build a family tree 768 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:40,879 and it's really difficult. 769 00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:47,159 For that part, I talked to Leah Larkin, who's a pretty well-known genetic genealogist. 770 00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:51,800 She helped me figure out how I could make it that you wouldn't find many matches on family 771 00:34:51,879 --> 00:34:52,139 trees. 772 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,040 And so she finally figures out her mother is missing, seems to have run away from home, 773 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,120 and she can't figure out her dad. 774 00:35:00,380 --> 00:35:03,460 She puts her DNA on Jed match, and the police are very excited. 775 00:35:04,020 --> 00:35:07,900 They're allowed, Jed match is one of the places that works with law enforcement. 776 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,520 And so they can tell that she's the daughter of the Portland Phantom serial killer that 777 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,560 they've been looking for for over a decade. 778 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:24,120 So it's like nature and nurture, who are you if your half-year genes came from a evil 779 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:24,440 man? 780 00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:31,620 There's at least three memoirs by women who are the daughters of serial killers trying 781 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,580 to grapple with what does that mean for me? 782 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,980 Probably the most disturbing one was by the BTK guys, 783 00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:44,800 the buying torture killers daughter, Carrie. 784 00:35:45,660 --> 00:35:48,940 She liked her, she always was looking for dad's approval 785 00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:51,840 and saw good things in him 786 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,100 and yet now realizes he's a monster. 787 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,980 So that would be very hard to deal with. 788 00:35:57,940 --> 00:35:59,720 - Well, you see, yeah, that's gotta be different 789 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,520 'cause you're seeing one thing and then suddenly you're shown. 790 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,120 I mean, that's, you know, he always seemed 791 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,840 like such a nice guy, as they always say, right? 792 00:36:06,700 --> 00:36:08,120 - Now you've written thrillers for, 793 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:09,580 mysteries and thrillers for adults, 794 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:12,680 but you mainly have written for teenagers 795 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:14,420 and a younger audience. 796 00:36:14,980 --> 00:36:16,040 - I switched, yeah. 797 00:36:16,740 --> 00:36:19,820 I wrote a book with it that had to have a teen 798 00:36:19,900 --> 00:36:23,800 as a main character inspired by these real overseas bootcamps 799 00:36:24,060 --> 00:36:26,860 that kids were being sent to that were a scam basically 800 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,700 and were horrible to the teens. 801 00:36:29,290 --> 00:36:31,000 It was just such an interesting story. 802 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,100 And I thought, well, there are adult books 803 00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:40,140 main characters. And my agent said, "No, this is a young adult book." And she repped a lot of them, 804 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:46,840 and that's how it's sold. And then I like writing for teenagers because if

you can hook a kid and 805 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,480 make them want to read, then you can change their life. I hear from a teenager a day, probably on 806 00:36:52,540 --> 00:36:58,460 TikTok saying, "You're the reason I'm a reader." So I kind of feel like I'm a surgeon or something, 807 00:36:58,620 --> 00:37:03,020 you know, like I fixed something in somebody. It's very similar to what Roald Dahl had for you, 808 00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:07,400 Like the fact that you can respond back to them, I think that's it's and this is a really great world 809 00:37:07,540 --> 00:37:12,180 We live in where you actually have authors who can respond. Yes, I actually still keep in touch 810 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:18,280 With there are a lot of the teens that I hear from hopefully this isn't true for all teens 811 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,600 But they're looking for an escape. They are living in a really bad situation 812 00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:30,500 They're like in foster care or they're hiding the bottles of alcohol from their alcoholic mom or something 813 00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:36,000 So, and there's some that I have kept in touch with for years, like they're in their 20s now. 814 00:37:36,980 --> 00:37:39,140 And now let's hear from this episode's sponsor. 815 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,380 Hi everyone, I'm Jamie Davis, show manager for Author Nation. 816 00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:45,080 I'm back with another fun dad joke for you. 817 00:37:45,390 --> 00:37:48,740 And don't forget to come to the conference and get one from me in person. 818 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:53,380 So why are math textbooks always the saddest books in the school? 819 00:37:54,820 --> 00:37:56,900 Well, they're the ones with the most problems. 820 00:37:58,420 --> 00:38:02,360 What is the shift from when you're writing to adults, 821 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,780 where for adults, where anything goes, 822 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:06,540 are there certain key elements 823 00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,120 when you're gonna put out a book 824 00:38:08,220 --> 00:38:11,060 and you know it's gonna be 12 years of age and up? 825 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,220 - Well, you know, there's kind of different ways 826 00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:14,220 of approaching it. 827 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,080 Like people who don't worry about being in schools 828 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,100 can probably do whatever they want. 829 00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:22,660 Like I had a friend whose book was a paperback original, 830 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,000 so that means more like the teens are buying it 831 00:38:25,140 --> 00:38:26,060 rather than a hardcover, 832 00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:28,800 which is pretty much librarians and parents or whatever. 833 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,280 She had a lot of F-bombs and I was like, 834 00:38:31,340 --> 00:38:32,640 "Maybe you want to cut those back." 835 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,560 But she didn't and it sold really well as a paperback. 836 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,480 But I

had written some books for a Christian imprint 837 00:38:41,180 --> 00:38:43,640 that Thomas Nelson, which is part of Harper Collins. 838 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,340 So they have one set of books 839 00:38:45,410 --> 00:38:46,580 where they're all about Christianity 840 00:38:46,940 --> 00:38:48,820 and another set that are just like normal books, 841 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,380 only nobody swears or has sex. 842 00:38:51,740 --> 00:38:55,380 So that taught me that you could do a lot 843 00:38:55,380 --> 00:38:58,240 just by relying on your reader to fill in the blanks. 844 00:38:58,740 --> 00:39:02,220 If you say the man swore in her ear, 845 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,440 then they are gonna fill that blank in 846 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:05,820 with whatever works for them. 847 00:39:06,020 --> 00:39:08,720 And if you're 12 or 18 or 24, 848 00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:10,360 you're gonna maybe use different words. 849 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,300 The same with violence, 850 00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:15,920 you can just talk about how somebody is horrified 851 00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:17,800 by what happened, but you don't have to say, 852 00:39:17,860 --> 00:39:20,400 it's kind of like the monsters and stranger things. 853 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,000 I felt like they were way more scary 854 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,340 until I could see them. 855 00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:28,580 And once I could see them, I'm like, oh, it's kind of like alien mixed with a 856 00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:29,920 pterodactyl or something. 857 00:39:30,020 --> 00:39:34,760 And they just weren't as impactful when it was my scared imagination filling it in. 858 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,680 There is a term in YA called clean teen. 859 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:39,860 And I don't like that term. 860 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,340 It kind of implies everything else is dirty teen or something. 861 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,540 So, but I am mostly leaving things up to readers' imagination. 862 00:39:47,660 --> 00:39:51,600 I remember years ago when I was on live journal, like probably 20 years ago, 863 00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:57,140 There was a librarian who lost her job over, I think it was like F words in a 864 00:39:57,220 --> 00:40:00,900 book, like that she just ended up, she's like, I'm drinking wine in my 865 00:40:00,940 --> 00:40:02,820 parents' basement and I lost my job. 866 00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:06,980 And I thought, well, I don't ever want a librarian to lose their job for it. 867 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,180 That's not the F word is not an important reason. 868 00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:11,120 You know what I mean? 869 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,380 There's, right. 870 00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:12,640 Yeah. 871 00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:16,860 There's plenty of other things to stand up for besides the F word, but I mean, 872 00:40:16,940 --> 00:40:18,000 it is a slippery slope. 873 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:18,660 Yeah. 874 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:25,260 So I thought I just, I guess I

haven't, I've had a few challenges, but mostly it's been people 875 00:40:25,710 --> 00:40:31,020 who haven't even read the book. Sometimes you will get pushed back. And this scares me is, 876 00:40:31,940 --> 00:40:35,720 like if you have a gay character, I've had librarians say I can't have a book with a gay 877 00:40:35,820 --> 00:40:41,820 character. Isn't that sad? That's so sad. And libraries. Oh my God. It is very sad. And then 878 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:47,360 you, I feel like the ones you hear from are, there's probably a whole bunch more that are looking at 879 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:53,400 They're going to buy one of these two books and one has a game in character and one doesn't and they're going to buy the one that doesn't 880 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:59,080 And they're never going to tell anyone that's like called soft censorship. I worry about soft censorship 881 00:40:59,620 --> 00:41:04,600 I mean, there is a pushback now to the mom's for liberties mom's for liberty movement, but 882 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,160 It's still as scary how much it feels like 883 00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:16,160 Think the clock has turned back on a lot of things like oh my gosh. Yeah the books that are getting challenged usually deal with race or 884 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:22,200 gender. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going all going the wrong way. It's going to be it's going to cost 885 00:41:22,820 --> 00:41:29,700 backlash for a while, I think. Okay, so you won awards for writing for reluctant readers. I need 886 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:33,860 to understand this term because if they're reluctant, how do you get them read in the first place? 887 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,420 Basically, you hold them down. That's what the dish knowledge, you tie them up. 888 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:44,319 I wrote 12 books for adults. I wrote that book that was for teens called Shock Point. The first 889 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,960 review from Kirkus, you know, that means sometimes it was like something of a pot boiler but might 890 00:41:50,140 --> 00:41:53,980 appeal to reluctant readers. And the next review from School Library Journal is much nicer, 891 00:41:54,370 --> 00:41:59,080 but also said reluctant readers. And I thought, how weird they're both using the same unusual term 892 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:04,980 that no one knows. But what I didn't realize was adults who don't like to read, they don't read. 893 00:42:05,540 --> 00:42:09,900 Teens who don't like to read are forced to read some by school. So they're-- 894 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:11,000 Right. And parents sometimes, yeah. 895 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:17,660 Yes, but they're looking for books that are not as long like some of the Harry Potter's 896 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,520 are like, you know, 600 pages. 897 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:20,660 Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 898 00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:23,240 Intimidating to a kid who doesn't like to read. 899 00:42:23,820 --> 00:42:26,820 They're looking for something exciting on the first chapter. 900 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,620 They're looking for short chapters, cliffhangers. 901 00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:33,960 But then once they started trying to write for that group, I realized we all like that 902 00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:34,360 stuff. 903 00:42:34,470 --> 00:42:39,140 If I'm reading a book and I page ahead and it's 50 more pages till the end of the chapter, 904 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:40,220 I'm just going to go to bed. 905 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,020 But if it's three pages and then when I get there, 906 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,000 it ends on a cliffhanger, I'm going to keep reading. 907 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,880 So I'm trying to grab those kids 908 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,520 and make them realize that reading is fun. 909 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:51,380 - That's awesome. 910 00:42:51,740 --> 00:42:53,380 I like short chapters for that same reason. 911 00:42:53,620 --> 00:42:54,420 So I want people to be kind of-- 912 00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:55,680 - Yeah, it's like potato chips. 913 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,220 You just keep eating and eating. 914 00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:00,920 - All right, this has been absolutely fantastic. 915 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,880 We have a couple more questions that we ask everyone. 916 00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:06,880 The first is, what do you consider 917 00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:08,280 to be your author's superpower? 918 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,220 It would probably be research that would be my spot. 919 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,820 - I was gonna say, she sounds more like Batman 920 00:43:14,420 --> 00:43:16,020 because she's got all the training now. 921 00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:17,940 And so like-- 922 00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:18,420 - That's true. 923 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,280 I was thinking Kung Fu might be her strength, 924 00:43:20,420 --> 00:43:21,740 but that's not really a writing strength. 925 00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:25,160 It's a defense strength, but brilliant. 926 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:25,900 Good, good, good. 927 00:43:26,020 --> 00:43:28,500 Okay, so we have a wheel of questions. 928 00:43:29,180 --> 00:43:31,380 - Random questions, so prepare yourself. 929 00:43:34,260 --> 00:43:35,940 I get the sound effect and everything. 930 00:43:37,020 --> 00:43:38,540 Oh, no, it's just 'cause I don't have the mic. 931 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:39,860 - Yeah, I was gonna say, the clicking's gone. 932 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,960 - All right, what is your ideal night out? 933 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,440 Do you like dress up fancy restaurants 934 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,200 or shorts in a beach bar or a movie, drive in? 935 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:51,160 - Find us gonna combine things. 936 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,680 It would probably be a nice meal 937 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,280 and then go into listen to live music. 938 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,140 So we have some live music stuff coming up 939 00:44:00,300 --> 00:44:01,940 that I'm already excited about.

940 00:44:02,220 --> 00:44:05,580 And but usually we only do one of those two things. 941 00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:08,660 We have pizza and go to music 942 00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:10,740 We have a nice dinner out and we come home. 943 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,220 But if I could combine the two, I think it would be perfect. 944 00:44:13,940 --> 00:44:14,620 - Oh, that's fair. 945 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,040 All right, Nick, what about you? 946 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:16,680 What's your ideal? 947 00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:18,540 I know your ideal, but what does the rest of the world 948 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:19,600 know what your ideal might be? 949 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:20,320 (laughs) 950 00:44:21,140 --> 00:44:23,140 - Short, I'm short on a beach bar all the way. 951 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,360 Hopefully just come out of the water from diving 952 00:44:26,540 --> 00:44:28,720 and sit by the side. 953 00:44:29,619 --> 00:44:30,800 - Yeah, I love that you're, 954 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,920 and I know your wife and she's lovely, 955 00:44:32,980 --> 00:44:34,360 but I love that your ideal date with her 956 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,800 is a go under water where you can't talk to each other. 957 00:44:37,140 --> 00:44:37,400 (laughs) 958 00:44:38,620 --> 00:44:40,620 - Yeah, well, she'd be the first one to say. 959 00:44:41,060 --> 00:44:41,720 - That's all right. 960 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,280 - My wife is like, oh yes, I don't wanna hear him 961 00:44:44,420 --> 00:44:45,080 from him, so. (laughing) 962 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,540 I would say, I gotta agree with April. 963 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,580 I like the idea, I do of course love a beach bar, 964 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,160 but live music and something casual is always, 965 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:54,220 it's always fun to go. 966 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,480 So if you could combine a beach bar and live music, 967 00:44:56,660 --> 00:44:57,220 then I'm in heaven. 968 00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:58,560 - Oh, that would be great. - Yeah, that's pretty cool. 969 00:44:58,580 --> 00:44:59,560 - Yeah, that's pretty cool. 970 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,160 - Even a really good cover band. 971 00:45:01,580 --> 00:45:03,780 - Oh yeah, I mean, I wanna know the songs 972 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,140 'cause I love to sing along to, you know, 973 00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:10,660 Guns N' Roses played by an overweight guy. 974 00:45:11,100 --> 00:45:12,860 - And you wanna hear Doug sing. 975 00:45:13,620 --> 00:45:14,540 - Okay, I'll take care of it. 976 00:45:14,540 --> 00:45:16,600 - If you wanna be put off music for the rest of your life, 977 00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:17,260 hear Doug sing. 978 00:45:17,580 --> 00:45:18,580 - I'd be happy to, yes. 979 00:45:19,780 --> 00:45:21,520 - April, thank you so much for joining us. 980 00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:23,220 This has been truly a pleasure 981 00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:27,660 and thanks for sharing all your historical secrets with us. 982 00:45:28,120 -->

00:45:29,800 We really appreciate it and all the best. 983 00:45:29,980 --> 00:45:31,560 Now when this airs in the blood, 984 00:45:31,780 --> 00:45:33,500 I'm sure we'll have already topped the charts. 985 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:35,200 - All right, thank you. 986 00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:36,340 (upbeat music) 987 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,260 - Thank you so much, April. 988 00:45:43,420 --> 00:45:44,260 What a lovely lady. 989 00:45:44,740 --> 00:45:45,340 - She was very lovely. 990 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,500 Makes me feel like I'm not doing enough to research though. 991 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:48,100 I tell you what. 992 00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:49,420 - Oh my gosh. 993 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,300 - Well, I'm gonna see if I, 994 00:45:51,660 --> 00:45:53,560 I think you gotta worry if I let Ashley tie me up, 995 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,040 she'd just leave me there for a while. 996 00:45:55,180 --> 00:45:57,140 - I think that's almost guaranteed. 997 00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,360 - No, I know Cheryl would. 998 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:00,860 So she'd leave you in a heartbeat. 999 00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:02,660 - Oh, she'd think it was just hilarious. 1000 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:03,060 Yeah. 1001 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:04,240 - They'd probably both go, 1002 00:46:04,780 --> 00:46:06,660 We'll do this, but we're gonna gag you at the same time. 1003 00:46:06,860 --> 00:46:08,160 - Exactly, yeah, yeah. 1004 00:46:08,620 --> 00:46:10,600 Like just give me sippy cup with some rum in it 1005 00:46:10,740 --> 00:46:11,800 and then leave. - Sippy cup. 1006 00:46:12,340 --> 00:46:15,340 - The genealogy, I mean, and there was some stuff 1007 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,740 I know from her bio and that, and she mentioned 1008 00:46:19,060 --> 00:46:20,860 all of these grandfathers and great-grandfathers 1009 00:46:20,930 --> 00:46:23,860 with this stuff, I know there's a witch in her, 1010 00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:25,560 back in her genealogy somewhere. 1011 00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:27,300 Isn't that amazing? 1012 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,760 - I do, I do, I mean, I have done a little bit of genealogy 1013 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,920 and I enjoy it, but it can, talk about a rabbit hole. 1014 00:46:34,060 --> 00:46:35,980 I could spend like she says, been a year doing it. 1015 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:37,100 Like you start doing it and you're like, 1016 00:46:37,220 --> 00:46:41,780 oh, it's so much like a little mystery you guys solve. 1017 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:43,260 So yeah, it's fascinating. 1018 00:46:43,420 --> 00:46:44,180 I think it's kind of neat. 1019 00:46:45,260 --> 00:46:46,700 Oh, you ever done much of your genealogy? 1020 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:47,740 Did anybody know who you are? 1021 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,200 I mean, I know a lot of people call you a son of a bitch, 1022 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:52,980 but that's just how you do your genealogy. 1023 00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:54,380 - Don't talk about my mom like that. 1024 00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:55,500 She loves your book. - No, I love your mom. 1025 00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:56,460 I love your mom. 1026 00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:58,640 - Dig it out, Doug. 1027 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,280 - I don't know how she went wrong with you, 1028 00:47:00,460 --> 00:47:01,260 but I know what I think. 1029 00:47:03,690 --> 00:47:03,760 (laughing) 1030 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,260 She's going to explain how I was adopted. 1031 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:12,600 All right, so yes, I've had a couple of periods of time 1032 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:13,840 where I've looked a little bit back. 1033 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:19,120 It really got back as far as the early 1900s, World War I, 1034 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:21,720 what would be a great grandfather of mine, 1035 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,500 I believe, was in World War I. 1036 00:47:23,620 --> 00:47:24,840 He was actually mustard gas. 1037 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,600 He was blinded by mustard gas and the trenches and stuff 1038 00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:29,020 like that. 1039 00:47:29,100 --> 00:47:29,980 Yeah, so pretty interesting. 1040 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,740 But I've never hired a server, so gone back 1041 00:47:33,740 --> 00:47:38,660 than that. But it's something that's fascinated me. I'd love to do and I just never got around 1042 00:47:38,780 --> 00:47:40,060 to seriously attacking it, you know? 1043 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,360 Yeah, no. It's a lot easier than it used to be. I used to be able to go, like, wade 1044 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,800 through all these, like, microfilm. And now Ancestry.com does half of it for you. But 1045 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,980 it's still pretty impressive. I don't know. And I think it's neat that she's done this 1046 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,140 and taken it and used it as, like, she's done all this research. She now knows how to do 1047 00:47:57,260 --> 00:48:03,420 it. So then putting that into the book makes it really great, like, a good way to do that. 1048 00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:08,640 Oh, it's very enjoyable. Yeah. Also, I'm gonna try to get myself tied up and see how that works. 1049 00:48:10,779 --> 00:48:16,640 Can't wait to see you next. I'll do it. All right. Thank you for your support on Patreon 1050 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,000 to all the folks that go over there. We just recorded a bonus with 1051 00:48:22,439 --> 00:48:28,000 April that'll drop in there when this goes live. Yeah, yeah, it's a great one. Great one. So thank you. 1052 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,059 If you feel you get value for the show, dive over there to patreon.com. Look up the two 1053 00:48:32,060 --> 00:48:34,420 to the Two Auths podcast and support us over there. 1054 00:48:35,180 --> 00:48:37,980 Huge thank you to our wonderful friends at Vellum 1055 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,900 for all they do for the industry. 1056 00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:41,040 - And fabulous, Brad. 1057 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,200 - And for us and for sticking around 1058 00:48:43,340 --> 00:48:44,700 after the jingle we made for them. 1059 00:48:45,940 --> 00:48:49,040 And go to trivallum.com/twoauthors. 1060 00:48:49,540 --> 00:48:52,180 - We're recording it before they heard it yet, so they may. 1061 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:53,740 (both laughing) 1062 00:48:54,140 --> 00:48:55,100 Too late, you're with us. 1063 00:48:55,420 --> 00:48:56,180 - Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1064 00:48:56,340 --> 00:48:59,060 You'll find links as always in our show notes. 1065 00:48:59,300 --> 00:48:59,980 Check them out. 1066 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,760 We'll be back with a new episode of the Two Auths podcast next week. 1067 00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:05,080 Until next time, be cool to each other. 1068 00:49:06,030 --> 00:49:07,420 And fair winds and following seas. 1069 00:49:08,420 --> 00:49:13,700 You've been listening to the Two Auths podcast with Nicholas Harvey and Douglas Pratt. 1070 00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:18,480 Subscribe on your favorite platform for new shows coming every week. 1071 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:19,960 (upbeat music)