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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The range of third-web platforms in development today is greater than ever. From data-centric blockchain based approaches to agent-centric designs like Secure Scuttlebut, the potential futures of the third web are rapidly expanding.
Today we look at another approach with the Urbit platform. Like Secure Scuttlebutt, Urbit is agent centric. It is a deterministic operating system designed to be the filter between a user and the online services they use.
I last covered Urbit in 2016 and the project is now nearing public launch. Galen Wolf-Pauly explains.
What is Urbit?
A personal Server
A secure computer that
you actually own
Stores an event log of everything that has ever happened to it
That’s designed to live on any cloud server
But be controlled by a private key that you actually own
Your Urbit is meant to replace all of the consumer cloud software that you already use
How can it possibly be better than all of the expensive software that has already been created?
The basic thesis is that everything we use today runs on top of a unix of some kind.
The reason we wound up in this centralised world of cloud-based software is that Unix is too complicated.
Because the Unix is complicated, complicated layers between Unix and the application are needed.
The Urbit solution is to rip all of that out and create a single, extremely simple, complex system.
Urbit is a virtual machine, programming language, and operating system in 30,000 lines of code.
For comparison, Wordpress, an application that runs on Unix is 500,000 lines of code
Technical simplicity should turn into user interface simplicity.
Additionally, by hosting your Urbit in the cloud you no longer have a middleman serving you applications, Instead you only need them to host your virtual computer.
What does an Urbit future look like?
A single platform allows tighter integration of, for example, productivity software like Git & Asana.
As a designer, Galen looks forward to interface standardisation, -having messaging, documenting, code collaboration, task management and other consumer software working seamlessly as one system.
Rather than interfaces built for many people.
Do we need a new back end for a new front end? Hasn’t Wechat done this?
Today we use many services that have unified UIs
Google has both email and documents but do you really trust Google to have total control and visibility into your use of those services?
What if Google goes away?
Being able to run a server myself that I trust will be around a long time and is secure to me makes me feel alot better. [Platform Risk]
Wechat is a really great achievement
Apps are more like modules
But you have given total power to a single company
The decentralised Wechat pitch has gotten tired but Urbit is very much targeting that problem.
The future of cloud computing does look like that but makes no compromises in privacy or durability.
English
United States
SPONSORED

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:02this podcast is an exploration of decentralised information networks secure Computing and autonomous software technologies that enable new Global Information networks collectively known as the food web I'm your host off of holes
00:00:36the range of food web platforms and development today is greater than ever from. Eccentric blockchain based approaches to agent center designs like secure scuttlebutt the potential futures of the third with a rapidly expanding today we look at another approach with the platform like secure scuttlebutt agent Centric it's a deterministic operating system designed to be the filter between the user and their online services I lost coming out of it in 2016 and the project is now nearing public launch remove pulley explains
00:01:14today on the food web I'm joined by Galen wolf pulley of the Earth Project could you tell us what is sure so the short answer is that it is my server and the longer answer would be the orbit is a secure computer that you actually own that store is a complete event log of everything that's ever happened to it that's designed to live on any Cloud Server but be controlled by a private key that you out so your orbit is meant to replace all of the consumer Cloud software that you already use so what differentiates it from other platforms Hawkins something how can it be so much better than all of us extremely expensive and and well-funded software has been developed over the last 30 years
00:02:14you know everything we use today runs on top of a Unix of some kind somewhere underneath every web app is no sort of tiny sad units Appliance running somewhere what we've done instead of web to already know for really from the mid-nineties until now has figured out how to get these giant Appliance Mainframe like computers that work tonight in the seventies to act like a personal computers so in order to I mean this many people know right like if you want to build Twitter or you want to still Tumblr whatever the first thing you got to do is get a server running somewhere that actually where you can pile of them put together a bunch of software user interface and then you got to keep those servers running and you kind of The Nightmare of also taking care of all their data so
00:03:14weird centralized world of of cloud-based software is because way too fucking complicated and the only way to build even more complicated and our approaches just her basically rip out everything between Unix and the user so build one system which is turbot very simple very compact so orbit in its entirety is about thirty thousand lines of code that's a whole virtual machine programming language in operating system that replace what you would find in something like they were presser Twitter itself which is who knows how many uncountable lines of code to turn into user interface Simplicity means that we can produce something that's much more tightly integrated that's a nicer to use and then of course cuts out the middleman you no longer have to depend on other people to run your cloud
00:04:14number for you what do you mean tightly integrated that's a good question so you're just talking about an example show right now in order to draw this thing we use GitHub you think it when we want to get things done we use a sauna honestly who knows why because I couldn't find a better option for task management and I think figuring out how to share issues or share tasks between things that happened to get and I'll get her and on some kind of task management software the reason the guy connectors kind of works that that's have never really seems to work very well so in an urban world one thing we've been thinking about building for ourselves it's basically just integrated Pest Management that works right alongside the company you're working on so you can have commits or branches that are directly linked issues and when code gets pushed to something you'd see updates in
00:05:14project management system instead of only seeing the software that comes from in some ways I feel like this is very the intuition that in the early days of the web really cool that everyone ran around servers and there was this kind of magic to everybody has their own computer which is an open-ended general-purpose thing and all of these connected general purpose things have the potential for lots of unexpected things to occur between you know disconnected parties and so we've come to live in a world where everybody uses the same software everybody uses things that are so tightly controlled and I'm very single purpose and so part of you know when people ask what exactly is or before it's like I mean in some ways a point
00:06:14create a new world in which you can really return to the state where many things are possible and M like a new world to deventer Be Imagined I mean it's a good size and sometimes a little bit even like hard to reason that we just don't know exactly what it would be like it would look like I think that the thing that so I'm I arrive I have design background I went to architecture school so really really look forward to is really just interface standardization so when you you know Botham ask before we used our computers like glorified web browsers there was
00:07:14really thorough interface standardization throughout the OS right it's like everything had the same look and feel it felt like it was part of one system and so what I really look forward to is being able to have my messaging document editing documents of collaborative document collaboration task management any you know any you can imagine all these categories of consumer software that right now I feel like I have to flip between different interfaces and Bill first huge swaths of people having those all more or less look the same or be under you know within one design language. Something I'm like very very excited about but do we need do we actually needs a new back-end to front-end mean couldn't it just be I mean
00:08:14and we can sort I like privacy and durability right so there's always the sense for me when I'm using which of my own personal record write all of the communication here so much of my communication happens over email and you know I don't know might go away so I'll be able to run a server myself that I trust will last forever or at least a very very long time and I trust is secure to me makes me feel a lot better about this kind of like World of complete standardization to in the case that you give like in the WeChat case was kind of interesting achievement it's really really nice to use apps are more like modules you can live with in the oneworld WeChat it seems really really cool but the trade-off that you make with that kind of centralization is that you can have
00:09:14all of this power to a single company you know everything that you do if you live in a WeChat World lives with with WeChat so we chat pitch I feel like I've gotten a little bit tired regardless we're still in that nightclub I think it's reasonable to think that this this or future of consumer cloud computing does look like that it just makes no compromises about your privacy or durability fight back end and a unified front end for individuals in the same way that we chat provides the standard interface for its uses the part of your perspective is to design I looking it up it is this idea that end in individual could Define their interface said and then applications were
00:10:14naturally conform to that standed yeah that's right so instead of me going to Facebook or to Twitter or to Google Docs or to what have you and having them deliver the interface to me it would be much more like installing a desktop application where you know some applications make modifications to your standards or if you liked it but for the most part what applications do as they modify they like allow you to operate on data and some unique way and they don't make for the most part that use like a common sense set of interface components because for the end-user it's much nicer dystrophy like you're living in one universe of the the comparison that I have to make her like I think just intuitively to me this is like your answer like your Computing environment should feel more like your physical environment so you know individuals have different styles
00:11:14nothing like whatever but when we figure out our physical environment it's reasonably easy to do that like the modules that you pick from in terms of buying furniture taking a color for the walls are there so tractable like it's it's like they're they're the size of choice that you're that you're comfortable making versus right now you have this trade-off between effectively like a trailer or like a hotel room or something off the shelf that I'm going to live in all the time versus I you know basically built it from scratch like I'm a Linux sysadmin and I build my own home literally by myself like I counted all the nails, and turn like that trade-off today seems completely unfair and unrealistic have a
00:12:04you can have your cake and eat it too and since you can have your independent back-end your personal front end and and customize those to your specific needs like people who work on Urban full-time like would ideally put be able to provide something of the quality of you like it there like standardized looking feel something on par with you know that we chat save the world but if you want to go to change that modify that when you're changing the look and feel of her that you're changing the look and feel of all of the after agents that you run on on your bed so it's basically this whole time being essentially talking about the interface and this is a bit like the the overall in the face this is a bit like joking about the way Windows look so the way Lennox Luxe Lenox is a great example where you have a whole bunch of different devices that are applied to the sun similar underlined cuddle so with that with that Vision describe because I think they get ahold of that
00:13:04what is the advantage of using this over existing Cloud software existing Cloud platforms and how is it possible that it's simpler to use something I'm design freshly on a munch munch on much fewer resources than the I would presume and the 30 years of resources that have been poured into designing the this these immense cloud back ends
00:13:36okay let's see if I can unpack this one to the basic question is okay if we take people to can accept what I'm saying if you know we're going to deliver to this you know very a queen unified a beautiful in space experience will why is it that the Arthur particular breed of strange technology can can do that any better than them through like the you know what you can grab off-the-shelf today is that yeah absolutely about thirty thousand lines of code and how many people were right I mean versus literally hundreds of thousands operating system runs on top of eunuch so we just have a very formalize relationship to an underline five for him which is very in a battle-tested right units in the internet TCP IP and UDP
00:14:36like. That's all part of orbit or take that for granted right we take the existing infrastructure and build a new layer on top so what were really like the web stack and I guess I would say that orbit is actually designed for an individual to use it's designed for individual use in a way that like node simply is not nor is python or any of I mean not that these are there actually had no problems python or JavaScript like they're not really an issue with the technology for say it simply that is built for something else so to give an example or two maybe get only operates in a way kind of like a personal boxer and so the state of your orbit is a fixed function of all of the things that have ever happened to it so this idea of it you would have effectively just like
00:15:36shake machine that computes the current state of your computer and the idea being that that the entire event history that led up to that point could be you know everything in the whole lot of biometric data and all of the day that you create and writing and Publishing and all the data that you create through all of your devices and so on so forth like conceptually your orse of architecture Ali is much better suited to ore is suited for a paradigm of personal Computing that even the desktop actually never really captured in a way if you think of her but solely as like basically a hundred your computer this is something that I think really just doesn't exist and has never existed until you've been served conceptualizing what you would look like the what that would feel like to use where are in like just categorically different territory then what today's is Herb Industrial
00:16:35software is is Bill to is Bill to support because as I hear you describe this on the one hand we talked about and if I standardization to something that the consumer can grasp and grab ahold of but at the end of the other side of that I use it as an expensive customized the running face they'd like a professional designer to do that for themselves and in addition to that this sounds like it would take a new skill set in order to develop for an order for someone to the who was used to develop into traditional a Computing environments to develop for
00:17:15yes it will to be clear it's like we hope that I'm even probably later this year like your experience of using it is on par with using the existing web service like using a rabbit is not a does not require any special skill set in and in some ways that's her emphasis on design and usability is because you don't get some getting people control over their own Computing is not not aimed solely at a technical community like ideal you want you want everybody to be able to do this industry appreciate the difference all the way through to the look and feel like your parents or their friends I don't I don't think of it as built for my parents to your to your cousin's like you can tell your cousin about about aetherium right for the maybe you could at least tell him to baht to buy or something like that
00:18:15clear the bar of hay should get a nerve it address you should try to search at and hang out in her bed soon in the in the next in the next year or so I think it went to people who are somewhat technical or either on one hand there so it's like instant system software machine there's a lot to learn about as Sorcerer of alternate universe of computing and then I think even just for the the the kind of micro cultures that exist on Earth of like small small communities of people who use are bats communicate with each other that's super funny and strange and interesting at work since 2013 or you could always come and hang out and chat and experiment with tachyon the colonel and stuff like that
00:19:15express application for rent
00:19:21and actually other people have no one else cares I met someone who works full-time in Urbandale threw up like I said he read about decentralised agriculture affects decentralized agriculture so one of the things that hate is basically stuff that they can't hack on in the end. They're not all my tools and so one of the problems with a lot of the technology that's being deployed in the world that's not the case right it's a typical approach to building internet of things. So of course I can't like crack open my Nest I can't even figure out you I can't even connect my Nest to a different server most coyote stuff is is really extremely closed that's true on the phone
00:20:21well I'm so that when is the application for a bit is basically it runs its own network and it's really like an instance of the urban OS also runs a tones for private network of devices and so they are not working can I scan code you anything in general purpose computer is also connected to a network is a nice thing to be able to run on a connected device that's out in the field where you could even potentially be running that over simply like a local network at the farm itself so you can imagine you the farmer actually said your keys into those things like you how you own them cryptographically you know you have complete ownership over the data don't have to let some third-party what's going on
00:21:15you can extend that's the one thing I thought about this in the realm of basically Industrial Automation and end in building factories where I would imagine that the staff for doing that still kind of lives in this old unit SeaWorld in his and it's pretty messy and complicated that's not something I'm quite as like just needed laser professional something that it would be extremely good ass yeah the the big and dumb. John Deere owns the software that runs on the John Deere engines right so is wakanda on used to use those engines and the other weird thing is all of that information they can
00:22:15practices F thats a John Deere tractor John Deere is somehow going to like turn around and steal your farming practices but there's a small General fear that your iot devices a collecting extremely granular data on your activities and that Donna inevitably will be leaked and used for malicious purposes mean if someone likes or less technical than than myself I think I would probably have fun having a direct access to like they're interesting things that I could I could do with it or would want to inspect it more deeply than most of our iot devices allow and then I guess when it comes to the connectedness of these thing I mean
00:23:15it's one of these tough it's like does is Google in fact not evil you know is John Deere not yeah maybe yummy maybe about who I am I think that it would be much better if I knew that it was completely pseudonymous and I was submitting that data in a way that I knew was Secure or I had some visibility into the either into the source code red headsets with cryptographic guarantee that when I submit this it's basically like I don't mind sharing what's going on for the purposes of research or for them to effectively Optimizer things that deliver to me but I would prefer not to have that be able to be reached and leak information about me personally so one of these I think I've often about genomic data about people's Gina Thompson so you see Nora last couple weeks this evidence of basically 23 and me sharing data with law enforcement agencies
00:24:15the state like it's a little
00:24:18unsettling that you know you shared what is pretty personal data with a large company don't know exactly what's going to happen with it but on the flip side and so would make a lot of sense to me if people could effectively you know you store your genome on something like a nerve it or something like an hour ago and stents and then when you want it you allow a researcher to send you a program that does some kind of you know does some of valuation of that did it and then sends back the results for example I'm sure there are other you know other schemes you can imagine but basically like you never had their many ways in which you don't actually have to send the data itself if you live in a world where the individual actually can control the device run the coffee taste themselves like in fact you know own their own Computing Texas into some some really interesting territory with other startups like. A republic which is based in Sydney and then the whole problem is
00:25:18connections it's very hard to understand or or conduct deep analysis of data held by multiple parties was it's been given to multiple pipes without exposing the individuals involved in that. I where is these where is. Republic has developed a way to Blind old daughter but still allow computation to take place on it it's a bit like this Holy Grail play the most encryption ring signatures and similar like you can do these kind of like really intensely pseudonymous ways of APA skating the source of something this like that identifier in in in a data set which is yes it's their super interesting super promising a very unlikely that like Nestor Fitbit or whatever it's not like they're do that for fun
00:26:12sorry with potatoes and how do you achieve this can you tell us a bit about the networking and I don't to go to date cuz we have had extensive discussions about this in the past once in 2016 I know you've also done and episode of FSN tell which I would suggest that list is checkout but could you tell us just a bit of you of the of the of the networking and the way that individual events communicate with one another and then also let's take a quick look at the application stack
00:26:49easiest way to think about this is effectively in this Azimuth arvo distinction so Azimuth is the urbat identity system as meth is actually a system of aetherium contracts the simplest way to think about an Azimuth point which is a single identity is it's similar in a way to maybe the combination of like a domain name and email address in my IP address there is a finite number of Azimuth Points each one is you know in essence just a number we provide a pronounceable representation of that number of synthetic pronounceable strings and so those those points does addresses are distributed in the sort of parody parody Central at the top of 256 galaxy is the issue the next 65 thousand stars that issued the next 4 billion planets and planets issue the next to
00:27:4964 moons where are the idea being at the top level of galaxies effectively the Senate because they they vote in fact very practical you vote on chained to upgrade that system of contract so if we move to new system contract that requires Senate majority of the galaxies to agree on that new contract address the stars are network infrastructure and planets ideally are for humans and moons are for devices so you have to talk to the it's the numbers are otherwise hard to remember you notes to the 8th to the 16th to the 32nd to the 64th all of the notes can move so they can read you can you get your trapped under the address that issue you but we do use that hierarchy for grouting so if two planets want to talk to each other they go up to the star of the Galaxy and then down depending on you know where in the topology the other Pier is
00:28:49the routing is actually not contain who owns what are those in fact they could even be used for another Network you can use it as simply as an identity system it's like alive Mane net identity system for whatever we happen to like using it for our voter orbital A & M you're going to ask you need to have an Azimuth point to Bhutan arvo incidents by the Fall we use your para to do pure Discovery so we don't your parent doesn't like proxy all your pockets but they do help you find other nodes on the network you're using aetherium but you're using it as a rich history rather than as a Computing platform so there's those contracts exist but what they really allows do is assign ownership of a sign control
00:29:49a specific entry and a registry and what is really interesting about this and I guess a bit of a closing basis on on some of this technology is that bacterium has proven itself not as an application platform which is what was billed as back in during its original conception but rather as a flexible and dynamic International Global available registry and this is something that's never existed before and this makes it very useful for Evan and I presume that would your would be relying on centralized services that would potentially lead to damage to the network where they controlled F cerium did not exist in wasn't and wasn't usable for the purpose of sitting out this registry so we originally I mean before yard has been around for quite a long time originally the idea was actually to have
00:30:46is leaky updates propagate through the network itself and so herb it would effectively in a hold this now we talked about Azimuth points has almost like digital Leon that's what they're like that land registry would just be sharing with in the urban that work and it was her to function as its own effectively self validating watching our lady there's no there's no blockchain but that that that the registry would just be continuously updated throughout all of the nose running on the network and I think what we found after aetherium became really widely-adopted was that bootstrapping this from a blockchain in a way allow it mean in some ways that the best part about it is simply that you know aetherium saluti so we can take his entire layer of system and we know that I can run securely on theorem which is fantastic because you have you actually get
00:31:46very clear layer separation we're like orbit naming is actually just this one complete system you have like ripped that out of the operating system which probably is it if it's actually kind of nice elegant clean separation to what you do to actually link them is simply register a public so and Azimuth point just has the public key that you use as your networking key inside of arvo itself once that looks to that land registry and says hey this person says that they're wrapped a reptile it does and they're using such and such a shame and if you're good at your serve authentic hated so this also this this routing system also Maps into a essentially a global file system or global storage system as well yeah that's right to EOS is a file system system for building applications a web server a networking protocol which is right over you
00:32:46secrets are kind of like a keychain and a build system that provide from the web stack it's her like webstac on gigantic you never seen before they are also like Barry server finder or super clarifier and I mean it's more like the whole system that the whole system is written in under the kind of Corps Colonel that manages the interactions between these components that'll written in a language language language for the system what is called Moon and now runs inside of or or compiled down to some kind of machine code which is the single deterministic function that you're a bit execute every time it gets an event this whole thing up
00:33:44oh yeah I think we have I think I think we've got a pretty well distilled and that takes you in a pretty short amount of time that's in about 40 minutes work to basically be explainable in less than an hour there are many other people involved in orbit you work for the outside of the outside of the company some of whom are contributors who been around for a long time long time ago some who won address face in different positions in the short answer for the community writ large is that as it becomes more useful the address space is finite
00:34:44as fine an assets 10 to do it becomes more valuable so people who own Galaxy cell stars or galaxies wholesale of General economic Paradigm for add the out-of-network as a whole as I said it's really like real estate so it's kind of like owning swampland that someday might be Manhattan and now I feel like it's a little bit closer to 4 like you own some farmland and other people have Farms on this on the plane to being actually somewhat inhabited sister broadly orbit in general is is your people in orbit make money by by owning and selling real estate and then potentially by selling services you have to run these notes somewhere and one would guess that hosting services
00:35:44best in some ways almost like as a real estate investment trust we own a bunch of urban address space we are less than 1/2 I can't remember the exact number right now but it's all public you can look in in the in the network and see and then eventually we don't order to facilitate people using her that we would provide provide hosting provide services make provide the on-ramp sent into orbit itself sent that are you going to tell me about half of the address space recently he gave us all of his voting rights so we can before the end of visual Galaxy so I Galaxy issues $256 / galaxy galaxy actually she's 255 stars that you hundred fifty-sixth actual node is the Galaxy itself you can think of it like a large tract of land used divided into parts and you know one of them
00:36:44is the Galaxy but they're all the same cuz they're all simply the ability to start an Argo know the difference the Galaxy courses that can vote we took back custody of the voting galaxies catch cast of the of the contain Stars Witcher 3 locked up an unlocked over the next four or five years on all of us is a bit of an answer to a riddle and that is how do you develop and structure a completely independent Computing Network that as you said is the hundred-year computer and as we just talked about this mechanic where I could have was able to able to give up the galaxies the voting nodes that to a related to the Stars which were the the nodes below those what will the Nerds contained by those registered to those
00:37:44nodes on top of that we've got this extremely simple operating system and invention was Shane the spicy scripting language and will using ethereum as the at the registry for ownership and and routing messages to store in the Otis of
00:38:07well structured and well-built through platform but I haven't heard of anything else even remotely similar I mean the closest thing I can think of and that doesn't include of x-ray machine or anything like that is the social network secure scuttlebutt yeah secure scuttlebutt is great I wish I understood it better I had a fantastic conversation with an SSD person that really made me think I would finally have enough time to other things at SSP is really as it seems really really cool but especially just as a community you're acting like I mean I think that you know historically you like IBM didn't try and create a PC in tilted pick up his account right and then they effectively able to crush it because of their
00:39:07enormous resources to pour into this so I think that if we are successful even moderately successful our biggest wrist is someone that light with Paisley enormous resources because there's so much potential value in certain moving Humanity to a different Computing platform that if it seems like we can even even those you know when our chances of success I feel like I've been going off this competition comes from people effectively with really really Deep Pockets I think that the one thing that's really different about urbit
00:39:53as assertive whole system is that the attitude is not to be a single network but to be a network of networks meaning that we've been kind of lightly explaining or talking about this idea of kind of like archipelago of of of individual communities and I think that even on other somewhat similar decentralized social platforms we are still imitating this kind of one size fits all model from these are present World which for anyone who works in this in this in this environment serega system should think of is the old world I like one-size-fits-all so for meteorites Community even on on Twitter something anyone else can search show up out of nowhere because everybody shares the same place and so I think that to me it feels like an absolute inevitability of that the world for many tens
00:40:53thousands of years was you know basically small communities of people who had no overlap with one another I think humanity is not really set up to all coexist all at once in one single you know in like Mark Zuckerberg blue dystopian set the thumbs up lots of people are willing to say okay maybe I got two billion people were like okay maybe in the next hour of tear or like next set of any the next Computing Paradigm is is how to get basically the way that people compute in a way that people
00:41:53two together to better match the way that people actually communicate in the real world form communities in the real world interact in the real world and I am completely not convinced that the way that we do that now is even remotely close and just if you'll allow me to finish the point that you and make you an order to to map the way that we get tracked in the real world into the digital world we have to be able to define the tools that we use at a very granular label reinforcing a lot to the people who all look route for work together here is that what we're trying to work will try to make it possible for people to imagine how these interactions should occur or how like what these applications should look like or what these houses agents should work we don't really know and we know that it doesn't look sort of like it would in the real world or like we
00:42:53who sings don't match quite right but the real question isn't can we say the right to the casino can we the author's decide of the right way that I don't think it's more like can you figure out how to get communities themselves to find all of the possible permutations of how we might communicate how we might compute together and not to me feels like a vast territory that is basically unexplored you like five companies who have kind of sort of shown us some cool things maybe but also that don't work in many other ways you know it's like software should be the spoke to the group of people who use it and you need a system that can make that iteration cycle very quick very simple and if we can deliver that then I think Humanity can go without solving the problem of what exactly do those specific use cases are those specific sort of like tailored experiences like one of those actually look like
00:43:53we can people find out more about it being simplest answer is just orbit. Org
00:44:09text listening to the food web if you like this episode please subscribe and I choose follow on Twitter at the food web or visit the food web. Net the episode Knights episodes in Ozark filmed interviews

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