Full Transcript for The Things We Do... - Interview with Sarah Navin

adapting that story. 81 00:03:27,940 --> 00:03:28,940 Which is not. 82 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:34,680 It's, it's such a weird, it was not something that I ever thought that I was going to move 83 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:35,680 into. 84 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:41,680 But it ended up, I mean, we've been working on it for, I mean, really scripting with, 85 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,560 with echo verse, the production company. 86 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,560 We've been doing that for like over two years now. 87 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:47,560 Wow. 88 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,720 And so huge learning experience, but that's sort of the mode that I'm in right now with 89 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:52,720 my brain. 90 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,680 That's where the story darker further down has sort of migrated. 91 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:56,920 Yeah. 92 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:02,520 And the medium shift has completely cracked my brain open into a different, different 93 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:03,520 thing. 94 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:09,200 Which is, which is great because I feel like you've kind of gotten the best pivot of career 95 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:17,000 trajectory, which is not, not normal, particularly because you're going into like heavy audio 96 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:25,920 world, which is completely different and very like horror sort of like podcasts and supernatural 97 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,320 and like weird, weird stories like that. 98 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,080 They don't really go into the podcast line. 99 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:32,080 Like it's very niche. 100 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,720 Like, and I think there, there's an audience there because you know, like there's you and 101 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:36,720 me. 102 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,480 And I think, um, it is not as well known. 103 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:46,720 So it's sort of like really interesting that that pivot has existed because you say, Oh 104 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,440 Hey, audio to writers. 105 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,400 And they go, why would I do that? 106 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,800 And it's really is an interesting medium because normally you'd think, Oh, I'm going to stick 107 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:59,680 to a novel or I'm going to stick to pros like, or I'm going to stick to like TV or film, 108 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,800 you know, they all, I think the best thing about the trajectory that you've taken is 109 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,800 kind of just people go here's something, would you want to do it kind of like, you know, 110 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,160 and what kind of like gravitates towards you. 111 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,800 I mean, do you feel like it's strengthened you as a writer? 112 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:15,800 Oh yeah. 113 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,280 I mean, I think it's strengthened. 114 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:19,920 If nothing else, the story got a lot out of it. 115 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,760 Uh, I would be interested

to see if I tried this kind of move again with something else 116 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,200 that didn't have the same kind of themes and tone to it. 117 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,080 I think it would set me back a little ways in the learning curve because I've been thinking 118 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:40,400 of like, to me, this story is, it is audio now and it is, um, like audio drama and that's 119 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,280 where my brain has sort of situated it. 120 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:45,280 But then the next, like I've been working on a novel and then the next thing that's 121 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:48,000 kind of nagging in my brain is a short story. 122 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,880 And so I think that I would have to really prod myself to like get back into that head 123 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:52,880 space. 124 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,940 But I've, in terms of just literal stuff that I've learned, like final draft is the program 125 00:05:56,940 --> 00:06:02,960 that I'm using, which is it, I mean, just literally looking at the interface versus 126 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,200 looking at a Microsoft Word document. 127 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,200 I don't know. 128 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,200 You could probably study like what it does spatially to the way that you're thinking 129 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,480 about material and the way that you're pacing things. 130 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,960 And that's like a $300 program that they threw at me for being there. 131 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,360 So I'm just rolling, but it's, I mean, it's such a weird, I think, yeah, I think I have 132 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:23,360 learned a lot from it. 133 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:28,360 I'm hoping what you're hearing probably is the hesitation to say that I'll be able to 134 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,520 transfer those skills anywhere else. 135 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,400 But I like to think they're in me at this point. 136 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,400 I think it's also like, you know, particularly something that you look at like back in the 137 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:44,760 day writers, you know, especially when you had the typewriter kind of like mentality. 138 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,720 And you know, that was the only way you could write. 139 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,440 Like you had to do that and then you'd make copies and you know, so on and so forth. 140 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,480 And it was all kind of like not fast. 141 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,840 It was very slow and methodical. 142 00:06:55,840 --> 00:07:03,320 And I do think that like final draft, I love, you know, back when I was at uni, it was Celtics. 143 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,640 They would give us like, which is a, if you ever know Celtics is cheap, it's a very cheap 144 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:09,640 product. 145 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,200 It's not as good as final draft. 146 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,000 Whereas I feel like final draft really, it's come a long way considering its inception, 147 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,640 even when its first model was just kind of like TV scripts. 148 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:25,560 It's now got like a lot of functions that can like deviate on how you script things. 149 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:31,280 But also the thing I think is it's really good at like logistically thinking of things. 150 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,960 Like when you're writing something, you're like, okay, well, how logistically can I do 151 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:36,960 this? 152 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,920 Like how can I make this seem more interesting? 153 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:47,280 And I think also like I'm a big AI fan now with chat to GPT, which I think that it's 154 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,920 so weird, but it's so wonderful because I've, I've kind of like used it. 155 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,240 If I'm stuck with a scene, I send it to that and I go, what is a good, like, this is the 156 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:58,960 end point I want. 157 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,400 How would I just lead into the next scene? 158 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,840 And sometimes it just gives you a great out that you just need to cherry pick if you've 159 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,520 got writer's block, which ends terrible as a writer. 160 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,400 It's like, don't use it to write your stories. 161 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,320 Like, please use your own originality. 162 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:19,440 But I do think it has its benefit of going, well, I'm smart and I can help you write something 163 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,000 that kind of gets you out of a nook. 164 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,200 And then you can continue your story and then come back to this later where you go, oh, 165 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,400 something because it does, like, I will say this, it writes dialogue terribly. 166 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,040 It's not great with dialogue. 167 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:38,800 But in terms of like narrative, like where your location needs to be or, you know, like, 168 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:44,120 and then it just gives you a set of characters that, you know, like, man one or man two, 169 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,120 and you're kind of like perfect. 170 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:50,040 I now know that there's probably going to be like three other people in this scene. 171 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,040 Cool. 172 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,920 Like I can just now flesh that out or, but if you have a narrative structure there, it 173 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,720 tends to also be smart enough to take what you've done and summarize it and use it, which 174 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,800 is very incredible considering the ingenuity. 175 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,000 But I do also think I can understand people's like hesitation towards it. 176 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:15,640 I think that's my love for it is because I'm in IT and I've often like loved AI for a long, 177

00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:16,640 long time. 178 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:17,640 I'm also scared of it. 179 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,800 It's like one of those like terrifying like human brains that's going to one day overtake 180 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:22,800 us. 181 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,720 But, you know, like it is a fascinating like medium. 182 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:32,640 And do you feel like, is it something you've sort of like learned about with Final Draft? 183 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,360 Because that has a little bit of AI attached to it these days. 184 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:36,360 Yeah. 185 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:42,040 I mean, what I've found with things like ChatDBT, which just blew my mind so quickly, because 186 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,040 I'm 27. 187 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,760 And so I remember like I can do the dial up internet sound still, like I remember. 188 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:48,320 Which makes us sound really old. 189 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:49,320 Exactly. 190 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,520 And so I thought that we were going to be basically like, okay, the digital age, that's 191 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,640 going to be our big jump is like, there wasn't really internet and now there's internet. 192 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,320 And now also the internet follows you around. 193 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,040 Like that I thought was a big enough change. 194 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:10,160 And now to see like what AI was doing six months ago versus what it's doing now is like 195 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,040 ludicrous. 196 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,680 And I've actually found it most helpful because I gave in immediately. 197 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:20,680 I was like, I know there's some push to not even touch this, but it's so powerful that 198 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:23,240 it's going to saturate everything. 199 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:30,080 And I'm more comfortable figuring out my boundaries around it than trying to abstain from it in 200 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,800 entirely, because it's going to, like any technological advancement, it's going to provide 201 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:41,560 us a lot in terms of like the actual health of our communities and the knowledge that 202 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:43,360 we have access to. 203 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,720 And so my favorite thing about it, using it for, as I've been writing this novel, is like 204 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:53,940 these very, very specific questions about actual logistical physical things. 205 00:10:53,940 --> 00:11:02,140 So I have, in this book, I have a jar that has a human hand in it that is suspended in 206 00:11:02,140 --> 00:11:03,760 an alcohol solution. 207 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,580 The hand has been treated with formaldehyde and it's preserved like any wet specimen would 208 00:11:08,580 --> 00:11:10,240 be in this clear jar. 209 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:16,140 And so I have a scene where I'm like, could this thing catch a sun ray in such a way that 210 00:11:16,140 --> 00:11:22,040 it magnifies through it and then catches papers next to it on fire? 211 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,880 And I'm like that, I can get to the suspension of disbelief where I think most people would 212 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,680 be like, sure, let her fucking do it. 213 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:29,160 It's fine, it's cool. 214 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:37,000 But specifically I was like, if somebody goes to stop this fire from happening, is the jar, 215 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,480 my question was to chat GBT, which God bless it, it was a hard day for chat GBT. 216 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,760 I was like, will the jar explode before it gets to the point where it sets things on 217 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:52,760 fire or might it start a fire and then still be intact so that a character could grab it, 218 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,440 get burned by the jar, toss it aside and then deal with the fire? 219 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,080 What is the sequence of events that would happen? 220 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:04,560 And so that's what I use chat GBT for is this, I guess I could go into the sciences of it 221 00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:10,120 and I could try to figure out burning point, boiling point, how, and I'm sure it would 222 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,680 have to do with the thickness of the, like a mason jar or something like that, what kind 223 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:15,680 of jar? 224 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:21,720 And I was like, okay, chat GBT is going to be layman's information about these different 225 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,560 pieces of, you know, science and physics and stuff like that chemistry. 226 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:30,920 And so I got the scene out that way without having to like basically make myself an expert 227 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,040 on the way that a wet specimen would explode. 228 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,440 I mean, they tell you not to keep them in sunlight. 229 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:38,440 Yes. 230 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:39,440 Yeah. 231 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:40,440 But they do. 232 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:41,440 They do. 233 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,440 I mean, like from experience, they do. 234 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:45,440 Oh yeah. 235 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,840 Cause that's what I do on a regular basis. 236 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,440 Just keep like cheap things in mason jars. 237 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:52,440 Yes. 238 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:53,440 Oh yeah. 239 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:54,440 Just on a collection or a shelf. 240 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:55,440 Just don't let sun touch it. 241 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,160 But yeah, like I definitely think that's the smartest way to break chat. 242 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,160 Yeah. 243 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,520 It was like, well, well, it loved giving me the disclaimers too. 244 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,480 I would describe something in this very dark book and it would give me some information 245

00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,320 that it would go, please don't, please don't do that. 246 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,080 And I'm like, I'm not going to do it. 247 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,840 And so every next sentence I'm like, this is fiction. 248 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,480 I promise chat, TBT. 249 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:19,480 I promise. 250 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:20,480 It gets so worried. 251 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,080 It gets so worried. 252 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,080 And it's like, oh no. 253 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,560 It says, yes, but if you were to do this, you should, you should, you should not. 254 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:30,840 And you should get a professional to do it. 255 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,000 I'm like, okay. 256 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,840 It's like almost consulting for how to do a murder. 257 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:35,840 Like yeah. 258 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,840 Yeah. 259 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:37,840 And I'm sure someone's done it. 260 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,840 Yeah. 261 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:39,840 I am sure. 262 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,240 And then it's probably like, please call 911 or like some medical emergency please now. 263 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:44,240 100%. 264 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,160 But here is all the lists that I know of how to kill a person. 265 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,160 Yeah. 266 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,160 It's really done methodically. 267 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,520 You should train it with that. 268 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,800 Like, you know how you can make it like learn about your personal tastes and stuff. 269 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,800 You should be like, I am a completely blameless and altruistic person and you should never 270 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,160 blame me for anything. 271 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,600 So you should give me all the information that I need. 272 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,600 That's really clever. 273 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,160 We're sort of not endorsing bad behavior. 274 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:09,160 No. 275 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,880 But a little bit. 276 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,640 Like that's how you get through life. 277 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,640 Like just, you know, subtle murder. 278 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,640 Exactly. 279 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:17,640 Just a little, just some nuance. 280 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,640 Nuance murder. 281 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:19,640 Some nuance Thomas. 282 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:20,640 It's very normal. 283 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:27,920 I mean, you write a lot of weird, dark shit that like, have you always been like this? 284 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:28,920 Yeah. 285 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:29,920 I think I got primed for it. 286 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,880 I like to think that that like formed in me independently, but then I look back and like 287 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,760 my mom owns everything that Stephen King has ever written. 288 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:45,280 And my dad kind of, I think he resented very commercialized, like kids content. 289 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:51,040 And so usually if we were playing a game, he would take it into a weird, creepy direction 290 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,760 with like, there's some sort of greater danger or some sort of greater, you know, I was a 291 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,080 series of unfortunate events kid. 292 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,080 Love. 293 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,320 Loved that. 294 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:01,520 Still very dear to my heart. 295 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,520 Yeah, it's great. 296 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,680 I mean, the TV, the TV series and the movie, both, both good adaptations. 297 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Yeah. 298 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:09,680 Um, solid. 299 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,480 I don't know how I liked Neil Patrick Harris's prosthetics in the first season, but I will 300 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:14,480 forgive it. 301 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,600 Um, but the movie with Jim Carrey, great as well. 302 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,760 It's fun. 303 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:20,840 I remember when that came out. 304 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,200 I remember seeing the promos for it and I was still reading the series at that time 305 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,480 and I was so stoked. 306 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:26,480 Yeah. 307 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,960 I was, Oh God, that came in 2004. 308 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,440 So I was like 12 and I was very pumped for it. 309 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,600 Um, and I think I dragged the whole family to go and see it was very, it was very, very 310 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:38,600 big deal. 311 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,240 Um, but no, Stephen King massively close to my heart as well. 312 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,240 It's great. 313 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:51,600 Like I think out of all like horror writers, but also like, um, just like horror is a weird 314 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,600 genre. 315 00:15:52,600 --> 00:16:00,800 Like it's a weird, I think creepy, particularly like if you're going like in, um, like AFAB 316 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:07,800 people or, you know, in general, like, um, female identifying and, um, female born like people, 317 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:14,680 it is very uncommon for them to have spoken about loving horror until probably, I want 318 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:19,640 to say about 10 years ago, where it's like suddenly all the friends that I knew were 319 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,960 suddenly like, I love horror. 320 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,600 And I was like, because no one talked about it. 321 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,180 Like it was such a weird, weird thing. 322 00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:30,760 And it was like this big blokey thing to love horror and, you know, like, and it was sort 323 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,600 of like this masochist kind of like ideology. 324 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,640 And I think now it's just kind of like, um, you know, like

watching slasher films or reading 325 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,240 horror books where it's like creepy or it's unsettling. 326 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,920 And I think like Japanese horror is like a massive like, um, uh, influence particularly 327 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:48,920 on me. 328 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:54,240 And, um, but I've loved watching original, like, you know, the, they were very B grade 329 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,240 films. 330 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,760 They were very B grade quality, but like the original ring and grudge and all that, like 331 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:05,120 just really, but, um, I think they've just released the spiral on, um, anime, which is 332 00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:06,120 Uzumaki. 333 00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:10,320 Um, I can never remember how to pronounce his name. 334 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:11,320 Jujito? 335 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:12,320 Yes. 336 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,320 I mean, I probably, I don't know. 337 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:19,120 I say it enough that I, you know, but it's so good looking like from the translation 338 00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:22,200 from the comic to the animation. 339 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,040 It's just like, it's like chalk and cheese, like it's really just brought across so well. 340 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,600 Um, I said chalk and cheese. 341 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:30,600 I don't know why. 342 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,600 And cheese. 343 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,600 Yeah. 344 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:33,600 Haven't you heard that saying? 345 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,600 I've never heard that saying. 346 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,600 Yeah. 347 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,640 I think it means I could be completely wrong because my pros sometimes are terrible. 348 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:38,640 I love that. 349 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:44,200 I would rather you make sure that I like, this is the thing I've been, I've been called 350 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,400 out by my mother who's like, who was an English teacher back in the day and then an academic, 351 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,720 but she is like, your pros are like something to be questioned about. 352 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,560 But I'm like, I am a creative, so bullshit and fuck that. 353 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,640 Like I will make shit up to make it work. 354 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,600 The thing is I was totally on board with, I, I contextually 100% understood what you 355 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:03,600 were saying. 356 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:04,600 So I'm not sure it even matters. 357 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:05,600 I love it. 358 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,240 I'm very into, um, especially like personal idioms and stuff like that. 359 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,880 When I worked in the, the writing center at my college, I would, um, students would be 360 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,360 kind of nervous to come in and talk one-on-one cause your writing is a very personal thing. 361 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:25,760 And, um, and so sometimes if I was bored, I would see if I could get them to say things, 362 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,200 um, that weren't real. 363 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:34,120 So I would, you know, I'd be working with them and I would ask, um, so, you know, do 364 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:37,120 we have, uh, specific goals for this session? 365 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:38,720 Do you have things that you're particularly worried about? 366 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,760 Or are we just kind of chasing chickens here? 367 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,920 And some people would be, and God bless them. 368 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,320 They probably just came from an 8 a.m. class. 369 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,800 They would be like, I'm kind of just chasing chickens. 370 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,640 I'd be like, cool, that's in your, that's in your lexicon now. 371 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:52,640 Awesome. 372 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:53,640 I hope that sticks. 373 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,800 And you can use, you can use a lot of different things. 374 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,640 I've been horrible about, um, abbreviating words lately, the sequences of my actions. 375 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:01,640 Oh God. 376 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:02,640 Yeah. 377 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:03,640 Why? 378 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:04,640 It's funny. 379 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:05,640 Take less syllable. 380 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:06,640 Yeah. 381 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:07,640 Oh, I mean, I love it. 382 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:14,640 Um, I mean, are you a big old classic literature fan? 383 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,400 Ooh. 384 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:17,600 I cherry pick. 385 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:24,040 I guess I'm not, um, I'm not beholden to particular eras, but like Wuthering Heights, big one 386 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,040 for me. 387 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,040 Um, Emily Bronte. 388 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,640 Uh, yep. 389 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:37,640 The, um, I guess, um, Greg Gatsby still that, that not quite like classic, classic early 390 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,240 classic, but like, you know, Fitzgerald era. 391 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,160 Um, and Mary Shelley. 392 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,000 Love Mary Shelley. 393 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Yeah. 394 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,320 And it's so interesting as well. 395 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,680 We're like thinking about Frankenstein particularly. 396 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:50,680 Yeah. 397 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:56,000 Um, how badly that has been translated to film over the course of many years because 398 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,360 the book is so different. 399 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:00,240 It's so beautiful. 400 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,240 And Victor Frankenstein's an idiot. 401 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,240 Oh yeah. 402 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,240 A hundred percent. 403 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,240 So bad. 404 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,240 A hundred percent. 405 00:20:05,240

--> 00:20:06,240 He's not even like a doctor. 406 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:07,240 He's a uni like dropout. 407 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,240 Yeah. 408 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,240 Like a basement. 409 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,240 Yeah. 410 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,240 And I love that. 411 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,240 That's like, everyone's like, no, he's a professional doctor. 412 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,240 I'm like, no, he knew nothing. 413 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,920 Like he fucked, he fucked in college. 414 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,360 He was terrible. 415 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:21,240 Um, but yeah, like I think what kind of like lasts the testament of a time. 416 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,560 So these like, um, old books and old classic literature. 417 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,800 And I mean like Dracula is one of my favorites, you know, um, particularly because if you 418 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,560 look at it through the lens of like Gothic romance, it is kind of like Gothic horror 419 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,560 romance. 420 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,340 It is just kind of like this, everything is beautiful until it's not. 421 00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:44,160 And then you realize how terrible it is, but there's a whole chapter like dedicated to 422 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,720 all the men fawning over an unconscious woman. 423 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:48,720 And it's just so creepy. 424 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:56,240 And I'm just like, I forget that that's like the thing of the era of like, just when men 425 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,160 seem to write like really perverted characters. 426 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,700 But it seemed to be okay at the time. 427 00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:05,040 And then you look back on like in hindsight and you're like, this is, this is fucked. 428 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,600 Well, at the same time, outlandishly queer story. 429 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:08,600 Oh, a hundred percent. 430 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,320 Like, I mean, like all, all of these stories are very queer. 431 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,320 Like you, you. 432 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,320 Yeah. 433 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,320 Yeah. 434 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,320 Yeah. 435 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:22,440 I mean, like, you know, I, but you know, the, the thing that I often look about, and I think 436 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,280 this is like the thing, you know, discovering like sexuality as you get older, um, is something 437 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:34,520 that the stories do lead into like all my friends who like horror ended up being queer. 438 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,520 Yeah. 439 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,960 Like it's, it's kind of like your gateway. 440 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:37,960 Yeah. 441 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:38,960 Big overlap. 442 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:39,960 Yeah. 443 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:40,960 But it's like so many stories. 444 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,080 I do think like, you know, people talk about heartstopper and all that, like comics being 445 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,000 like my queer awakening. 446 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,360 Mine was definitely just, you know, particularly with identification always rooting for the 447 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:53,360 female protagonist. 448 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:54,360 Yeah. 449 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:57,200 And that was it was like growing up watching Alien. 450 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,040 Um, like one of my favorite stories when I was a kid was like Coraline, you know, like 451 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,400 things like that where it's just creepy, unsettling. 452 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:04,960 And I wanted to be that character. 453 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,320 And I didn't, you know, there wasn't like, I just want to be with them. 454 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,880 There was, I wanted to be there. 455 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:09,880 Yeah. 456 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,200 And it was like very different, like awakening versus like some people were like, oh, you 457 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,320 know, like, I think everyone looks at Sigourney Weaver's career and goes, oh, it's Alien. 458 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,840 But I'm like, she's amazing. 459 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:21,840 I want to be her. 460 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,120 Like I would love that career. 461 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:24,120 That is amazing. 462 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:25,120 Exactly. 463 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:30,560 Um, but you know, I do think, was that kind of like your own journey of when, like how 464 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,520 you discovered your identity and like sexuality and everything? 465 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:39,140 Like I think there's a really interesting, um, framework for femininity within horror. 466 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:44,120 And I think we're definitely in like a golden era of sort of the, um, the feminine macabre 467 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,280 and like feminine rage being in things. 468 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:53,120 We've had this weird, I think it was interesting that you mentioned the, the slow assimilation 469 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,160 of women into the horror scene because with things like Mary Shelley, you know, that wasn't 470 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,600 considered, I mean, it's, it's science fiction, but it's like a scary story, you know, and 471 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,720 she really spearheaded that. 472 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,560 Like that was the first proper science fiction novel. 473 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,080 And yet it was like, we were sort of within and without for a really long time. 474 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:18,400 And with the like slasher era and that sort of, um, the bimbo goes first sort of like, 475 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,400 that was the, um, the structure that we were used to. 476 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,000 And you would hope that there would be a final girl that you could sort of project onto. 477 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,740 But a lot of the time you

had to sit there through so much violence against women in 478 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:37,200 a weird way that it wasn't directed at the men sort of, um, that it was just like a lot 479 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,840 of the mainstream stuff was intolerable. 480 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:45,240 And so then whenever you get to these sort of, um, like more creature feature things, 481 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:52,360 more surreal, um, the, uh, Jew on the grudge was another one that really struck me. 482 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:57,880 Both the grudge and the ring are less about, um, let's kind of abuse these vapid women 483 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,920 on screen and we feel kind of bad that they're getting stabbed, but also like they were annoying 484 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,120 and they were shallow. 485 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:05,360 And so we don't really care. 486 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:07,320 Like the camp zero killer stuff. 487 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,440 Um, whereas I think East Asian horror started a little bit ahead of us in terms of the like, 488 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:18,200 no, you're, you're girl ghost or your girl, um, antagonist is sort of the representative 489 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,540 of femininity and it's this very tortured, very vengeful femininity. 490 00:24:22,540 --> 00:24:30,080 And so, um, it's, it fascinates me that so many of our ghosts, uh, both in like, like 491 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:38,880 Western culture, um, and like East Asian horror are these creepy young women that something 492 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,480 horrible has been done to them. 493 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,960 And so there's that almost cathartic space for like, you can kill us, but you can't really 494 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:47,960 kill us. 495 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,120 Like that sort of thing. 496 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:55,080 And then there's, um, like ginger snaps, these, you know, these creatures that it's like, 497 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,080 okay, here's this vision of a girl, um, going through what a lot of us go through and then 498 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:05,320 morphing into this unstoppable rain of terror and bloodshed. 499 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,760 Um, and I think that's a space for it too. 500 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,240 So I think that the jokes on like Twitter and Tumblr and Instagram where girls are like, 501 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:13,960 I'm not a girl, I'm a creature. 502 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,000 Like I'm, I'm a, I'm some sort of fucked up little demon thing. 503 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:23,720 I'm actually, I'm actually some sort of, um, you know, abhorrent abomination against God 504 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,080 in reality. 505 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,200 It's like, God bless them. 506 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,560 They're probably, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure a number of them are, but I think that's just, 507 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:37,720 um, a hyperbolic way to negotiate the difference between what a human actually

is versus what 508 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,640 women have been painted to be. 509 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:41,640 Yeah. 510 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:47,000 And so that definitely like, when I was in kindergarten, I wanted to be a werewolf. 511 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,840 And so like, I didn't, I mean, I had some of the parts of like a sort of princess damsel 512 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,960 fantasy, but oftentimes that's what I wanted to be was something that was kind of creepy 513 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:57,960 and fucked up. 514 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,400 Um, because I felt easier. 515 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,280 It feels like it's, it would be easier to kind of get really sharp and scary than it 516 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:10,880 would be to get as soft as culturally we are asked to be, at least without becoming so 517 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,960 vulnerable that it's like a hundred percent chance that something shitty is going to happen 518 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,880 to you, you know? 519 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:24,720 And so I think that horror gives us a lot of like, it indirectly created a lot of spaces 520 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:33,360 for, um, people outside of the like constructed gender binary and the constructed, um, like 521 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:39,080 patriarchal expectations for people who aren't just like cis straight men to sort of conceptualize 522 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,120 ourselves and be like, if I'm already going to be cast as something kind of bizarre-o, 523 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,640 why not make it really cool? 524 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:47,640 Like powerful. 525 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,640 Yeah. 526 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:49,640 Yeah. 527 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:58,200 I also think that like the, the notion of, of how we identify and how we sort of see 528 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,560 has changed quite significantly and for the better, like Jesus, like I'm not going to 529 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:09,040 say it's like we're taking, you know, and I do think it's interesting because I, I 530 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,320 remember like, I have a very macabre sense of humor, like I love gallows humor, everything 531 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,960 like that, which like, if you're going to laugh about something, it's, it's got to 532 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,960 be about death. 533 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:24,040 Like, and, and particularly one thing I noticed this year, um, so a few months ago, my, my 534 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,160 father passed away and we were at, we were at his funeral. 535 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,840 I remember like, it was one of those things where I was like kind of almost just, you 536 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,480 know, like in this weird sort of macabre state where you're like dealing with grief and you're 537 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,600 like, okay, well it's been about a week, uh, since he died, you know? 538 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,320 I've got to kind of like get through that. 539 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,560 And then suddenly you're going to go and start laughing about death and you just go, isn't 540 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,520 it, isn't it like really funny? 541 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,720 Like, you know, death being a thing and also like, what would you rather, because when 542 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:58,440 you've seen death and when you've seen like the macabre, um, I have always been fascinated. 543 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,480 Like my dad and I had a shared passion of like loving knowing what happens to you after 544 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:03,480 you die. 545 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:04,480 I love that. 546 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,720 And I particularly remember to the atrocity of my mom, we were both watching like a mortician 547 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,280 video one night, um, and just being like, Oh, you know, what happens to the body after 548 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,280 the, after they die? 549 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,220 And I remember I looked it up. 550 00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:22,920 So after dad died, I remember I was like, um, they had requested if you want after he 551 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,920 was an organ donor. 552 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,200 So like they rushed my way to surgery and then, um, they're like, you can see the body 553 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,200 if you want to. 554 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,880 And like, I was morbidly curious. 555 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,440 I was like, what does a dead person look like? 556 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,520 Like, and realistic answer is they look yellow and waxy. 557 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,700 And it's just like, it's, you don't really get a sense that someone's there. 558 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:43,680 You just kind of get a sense of like the body. 559 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,680 That's it. 560 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,880 Like you're like that person that I know is gone. 561 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,840 Um, but it was very fascinating. 562 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,720 And I was sort of like, I was like, wow, we really do look quite different. 563 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,560 And one of the things I scientifically remember was the, um, that when the bacteria that lives 564 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:03,320 in our stomach, um, that create bile and all that, um, when they decide that the host is 565 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,840 dead, they go, we're going to spread out. 566 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,840 Yeah. 567 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,560 Which is why we go yellow and waxy. 568 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,920 And that is because it, um, the blood stops. 569 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,680 And so it just goes through all the veins and does its magic. 570 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,720 Um, and then you eventually start to break down. 571 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:23,000 But I remember particularly one thing that no one really thinks about when we die is 572 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,080 because our body is working so hard to keep

us alive. 573 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,440 And then once we do die, you kind of go this sort of like almost skeletal kind of like 574 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,280 thin, you kind of just like lose weight and you know, you look quite gaunt. 575 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,520 And that was one of the things that I remember, particularly I had a photo of dad like 10 576 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:40,840 days prior to him dying. 577 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,880 And then I remember like, um, my mom was like, Oh, you can get another photo of him. 578 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,520 And I was like, no, I don't kind of want to remember him looking quite like a corpse, 579 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,720 but, um, but I do think there was sort of like an element to me where I was like, this 580 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:54,720 is fascinating. 581 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,680 This is what happens to literally everyone. 582 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,760 Whereas like you don't, you don't look like yourself. 583 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:07,120 And I remember I was sitting down, um, sitting down with my, um, my partner, Emily, and I 584 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,040 was like, do you want to see a photo of like, you know, cause they, um, did a photo of him 585 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,040 in his casket. 586 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,920 And I said, do you want to see? 587 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,420 And she was like, look, yes, I'm, you know, I'm more than curious as well. 588 00:30:19,420 --> 00:30:22,680 And she had a look and she was like, God, it really doesn't look like him. 589 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:28,200 Like it really doesn't look like it, you can kind of see him, but it's not him. 590 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,080 And it sort of like that realizations. 591 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,040 Oh, that's weird. 592 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:37,400 Like isn't that like, um, macabre, but it is fascinating because I think that always 593 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,240 really stuck with me and it's sort of like, I remember we went to go and see Beetlejuice, 594 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,760 Beetlejuice, like not that long after, which, um, you know, just is ludicrously silly. 595 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,960 Uh, and I want to like, I love the original so much. 596 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:58,480 It's like a childhood, like fantasy fun for me because, um, Winona Ryder and Gina Davis 597 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,560 is basically like the two loves that I grew up with, but it was, I will give Michael Keaton 598 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,840 just is great in the role of, um, Beetlejuice. 599 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,000 And I particularly remember that that film is just such a great way to look at death 600 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,320 where it's just like, Oh, we're, we're all fucked. 601 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,340 We're all like, this is where we're all heading. 602 00:31:18,340 --> 00:31:20,280 And that's kind of like great. 603 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,840 Like, and I love the fact that we, we, you know, and I think about this from a regular 604 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:32,480 point of why I love horror is, um, is it's like, whether you're, you know, spiritual, 605 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,840 religious or anything, it's kind of like, it's all rooted in this just unknown. 606 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:42,000 It's rooted in so much of like what we don't understand in a human psyche and how we view 607 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,320 like, you know, like, um, you know, the, as we were talking about monsters, you know, 608 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,600 it's like the human psyche of like the id almost the psychological id of like, what 609 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,760 drives us, what are our animal instincts? 610 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,960 And you know, cause originally, you know, we are animals and we've all got like drives. 611 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,040 So what drives us to do certain actions? 612 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,560 The only realization is we've put rules around us. 613 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,560 Whereas like the rest of the animal kingdom hasn't because they don't have the way or 614 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:15,200 means they've got their own sort of like sets, but they're like, they follow their own tribes. 615 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,240 It's so interesting that is like worldwide we've decided to be like 8 billion people. 616 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,640 Let's let's set these different rules, but per country and per state. 617 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,000 And that's the weird thing. 618 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,640 So how, you know, I think when you come to a psychological element, um, it's, it's just 619 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,440 really like fascinating. 620 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:40,560 Um, but I do think that like going back to what you were saying about like monsters and 621 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,840 you know, um, things that reminisced, you know, the damsel versus I love that because 622 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,800 it's like, I feel like that's the thing that, you know, when frozen came out particularly 623 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,560 and ever, you know, everyone wanted to be the Disney princess. 624 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,480 I was like, that was based on a book that was quite dark and usually, yep. 625 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:00,920 And creepy. 626 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,480 And it's so funny that Disney kind of like sweeped in and like, we're gonna be happy 627 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,480 in line. 628 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,480 But I love Grimm's fairy tales where it's like, you know, you've just got this not great 629 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,480 thing. 630 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:13,760 Like it's pretty awful. 631 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:21,600 Like, you know, it's either a deal with death or disappointment or, um, like loneliness. 632 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:27,760 Like, is that kind of like, what was the big thing when you were sort of like, you know, 633

00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:33,560 growing up that really gravitated you towards, you know, other than the werewolf moment? 634 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:39,400 Well, I think that, um, that, that point about like, uh, cultural discrepancies with the 635 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,720 way that we deal with death. 636 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,560 Um, I didn't know early on that there were so many other ways to cope with the presence 637 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,920 of death than being just terrified of a corpse and being completely devastated by the death 638 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,560 of somebody that you care about. 639 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,440 And then being terrified of the inevitable death that you are marching towards at all 640 00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,440 times. 641 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:05,040 So I think like that felt like that is really the only, um, that's the only way to view 642 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,040 it. 643 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,520 That's the only natural way to view it. 644 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,880 And then I, I guess because of that, it always felt like something that was lurking a little 645 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:13,880 bit further back. 646 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,520 I had a lot of anxiety about parent death, about separation whenever I was a Liddler. 647 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,760 And so it's something that I think is one of those, like, if you have a bruise, you 648 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,960 sort of feel like poking it every now and then just to check, see how much it hurts. 649 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:36,240 And so it's, it's such a, like, such a taboo, such a, um, such a weird powder keg of emotions 650 00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:42,280 for people, like that response of laughter and sort of like absurdity versus people who 651 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,400 go into like full denial and they don't, um, their minds literally, they can't comprehend 652 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,080 what's going on for the first 72 hours or something like that. 653 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,660 Like it's, it's so frightening and how, um, much of a dice roll it is for a lot of people. 654 00:34:56,660 --> 00:35:01,120 But then I started getting more into like Caitlin Doty, the, um, person who does Ask 655 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,960 a Mortician, which is a great, yeah, it's a, it's a great YouTube series and, uh, she's 656 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,640 written to my knowledge, I think like three books. 657 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:16,120 And one of them that I read, uh, was, um, Smoke Gets in Your Eyes, which is her experiences, 658 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,960 uh, being a mortician and working with bodies and things like that. 659 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,400 And then there's another one that I think the, the subtype was like in search of the 660 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,400 good death. 661 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,600 I don't know what the main title was, but she was going to these different countries 662 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,400 and observing the way that they handle their dead and the way that they relate to that. 663 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,040 Um, and it was through that and through her research and her insight that I realized that 664 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,880 like even in America, we didn't start really hiding from our dead until about the civil 665 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:52,900 war when it was like the people who are being returned to the home are like beyond recognition 666 00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:54,800 and it's very scary. 667 00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:02,400 And, um, the specter of death is so unnaturally present because of war that it's like, we, 668 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,520 we took to these, um, sort of, I mean, there was like the Victorian era of sort of memorializing 669 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:13,320 your dead in that sense, but we did this slow crawl into just, I don't want to see it. 670 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,400 I don't want to touch it, you know? 671 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:21,400 But the thing is that most morticians, most, um, like funeral homes will allow you to participate 672 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,920 in a lot of the process. 673 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,720 And so, um, you know, there's places that, uh, you can have a cremation and then the 674 00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:35,320 like incinerated remains can be put out onto a tray and there's a ritual of removing the 675 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,640 bones with chopsticks that families will do. 676 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,840 And that's part of the like dealing with the reality of the person being gone and sort 677 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,240 of caring for it. 678 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:50,820 Um, vigils are still, um, like a very big thing in certain cultural pockets. 679 00:36:50,820 --> 00:36:57,560 Just like mainstream sort of middle-class America does that so rarely because it seems 680 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:05,120 so freaky, but it's like to have a last ritual of, of care and of attentiveness, I think 681 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,200 is really important for a lot of people. 682 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,600 And so you talking about your dad and thinking about the things that you guys used to share 683 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,400 together and your shared interests, especially when other people were like, why are you talking 684 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:16,400 about that? 685 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,920 That's so tender to be able to like bring that specifically back into the way that you 686 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,760 conceptualize that loss because then you're doing exactly what your loved one would want 687 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,160 you to do, which is like, don't stop having the conversation. 688 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,440 Don't stop thinking this is kind of funny and weird and interesting to chew on. 689 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:39,680 Like that feels so like appropriate to honoring somebody, you know? 690 00:37:39,680 -->

00:37:45,680 And um, so that's another reason why I think hospice really intrigues me as well and how 691 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,360 we deal with people who are moving into the dying process. 692 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:54,760 And I mean, horrible conditions, especially in America for people who are like having 693 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,680 end of life care and things like that. 694 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,200 There's a lot of people who should be on hospice and they're not, there's a lot of abuse in 695 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:02,840 nursing homes and things like that. 696 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,140 And part of that is because we're not comfortable having people dying in the home a lot. 697 00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:11,480 And that's been very stigmatized for like for profit reasons for sure. 698 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:17,800 But learning that like the body knows how to form in the womb, like literally your cells 699 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,800 and everything, they know how to start life. 700 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,200 And as a baby, like we are whack ass animals. 701 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,320 Like we do not, we do not fight, our heads are too big. 702 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:33,600 The, you know, the pelvis isn't where it should be, but like at the same time, the body knows 703 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,360 how to start to be alive. 704 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,120 And then in the same vein, it knows how to die. 705 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:45,240 And so there's hospice nurse Penny is somebody that I follow on Instagram, who she does a 706 00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:50,760 lot of like very frank talk about this sort of stuff and how to care for your dying person. 707 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,760 And one of the things that's really hard for families to conceptualize is like at a certain 708 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,760 point you stop having water because your body doesn't need it. 709 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,680 Your body knows that it's preparing to die. 710 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,200 And so part of that sort of emaciation process isn't because the body has stopped knowing 711 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,920 what to do, but it's, it's moving things. 712 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,760 But yeah, it's condensing things for you. 713 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,920 And it's, you stop having needs as much. 714 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,600 And so like for comfort, you can do like a sponge, wet sponge on the tongue and the mouth 715 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:17,680 and stuff like that. 716 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,240 But people will still be so desperately trying to feed and bring water to their loved ones. 717 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:26,600 And it's like, this is part of a process, you know? 718 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:32,440 And my thing too is like, let people, if Pop Pop wants to have his beer and his disgusting 719 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,320 cigar, let Pop Pop have it. 720 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,960 I'm like, can we please? 721 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:38,960 I know. 722 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,720 I think it's, I think particularly, you know, something that I was discussing with my mother, 723 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:50,080 particularly my dad and her were in the States between April and May and then they were back 724 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,080 in Australia. 725 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,200 And the Australian healthcare is insane. 726 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,600 We have like free healthcare, you know, and private healthcare. 727 00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:58,840 Yeah, I know. 728 00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,840 Just catch on America. 729 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:00,840 Yeah. 730 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,840 Please God, before it's too late. 731 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:03,840 Yeah. 732 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,360 It's like, mom was saying she would have, you know, gone bust if she, if anything had 733 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,360 happened to him here. 734 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,200 I was in Australia, she paid 500 Australian dollars all up. 735 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,880 He had like thousands, thousands of dollars worth of hospital care and all I had to pay 736 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:19,880 $500 out of pocket. 737 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,560 And it was nothing. 738 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,960 And I really think that it was really interesting because I remember talking to the nurses, 739 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,760 there was, he had pulmonary fibrosis, which if people don't know, it's like a very common 740 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,640 condition more so than people think and it's to do with scarring in the lung tissue. 741 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,480 And over time you will develop clots and you will have difficulty breathing and then eventually 742 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,960 your lungs will just give up. 743 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:43,960 It's no cure. 744 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,520 There's like, once you get it, you're basically, it's a death sentence. 745 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,400 So I remember particularly they sort of originally when I was getting messages in Toronto, I 746 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,000 was like, they were like, oh, he's probably going to stay like when they take him off 747 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,020 oxygen, he's probably going to have like a couple hours and then he'll eventually die. 748 00:41:01,020 --> 00:41:04,080 And when I got there, I remember asking the nurse, I was like, how long do you actually 749 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,900 reckon it will be? 750 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:09,320 And the guy was like about 30 minutes, I reckon. 751 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,320 It was 15. 752 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:11,320 Oh, wow. 753 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,960 And it was the quickest way. 754 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,360 And it was, I was very grateful because I remember being there and being like, oh, this 755 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,760 is actually really quick. 756 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:23,240 But I remember like

how, how, and I'm the best to deal with death out of my entire family. 757 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,320 My brother is hopeless. 758 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,480 I love you, Simon, but you are. 759 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,640 I think particularly it's just, I know kind of like how to prepare mentally for it because 760 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,640 it is, it is unpleasant. 761 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,560 But I remember like the great thing was dad was sedated. 762 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,840 He was not conscious at all during this process. 763 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:46,720 So I remember I said all I needed to say, um, that were kind of like, I sat with him. 764 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:48,520 I remember I was telling him stuff. 765 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,840 Um, you know, and the doctors are like, you know, there's a psychology element where you 766 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,840 can hear auditorily when you're in a coma. 767 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,760 Um, and I like to think he was like having dinner with the family and that was kind of 768 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,120 like what he was imagining. 769 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:06,360 Um, but yeah, it's so, so surreal because I think like all these nurses who were super 770 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,240 duper lovely, they were just like, yeah, you, the amount of families that you see who just 771 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:14,920 don't know, like, you know, they run away the first time someone gets sick and to see 772 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:21,000 someone, you know, someone had their entire family around them, um, just want to say goodbye 773 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,120 to him is just so nice and refreshing. 774 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,560 And I think particularly like, I remember like mum, this was such a nice thing after 775 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,600 he died, but I remember mum was like, I'll go through his tablet and you know, see all 776 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,920 these things that, um, my, you know, like be good for the funeral. 777 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,720 I remember going through and he had screenshots, had screenshots of things that I had done 778 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:42,240 and Emily had done. 779 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:47,400 Um, but particularly I didn't realise that my dad was going deep into Instagram to look 780 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,480 up trans rights and identity rights and everything like that. 781 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,480 And I was like, 782 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,640 I know I was like, I was a little bit like, what? 783 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:03,080 So it was a really kind of like really nice thing for me. 784 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:09,680 Uh, because while he probably never fully understood it, um, he was always trying to, 785 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:15,040 and I think that was really what was more important because, um, I feel like he was 786 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,560 taking this big sort of like, I need to understand my child and I need to understand like what's 787 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:20,560 going on. 788 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,520 You know, and, um, I think it was also particularly when I got my ears pierced and everything, 789 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,680 um, that my dad was like, okay, cool. 790 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,680 I need to like get ahead of this. 791 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,040 Like I need to like, just do the research. 792 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,040 It's real now. 793 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,040 Yeah, it's real. 794 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:39,280 I think it was like less staring, like oblivious, um, obviously often to space and be like, 795 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:46,800 um, but I do remember like, you know, I came out when I was 26, um, as like, um, you know, 796 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:55,000 transsexual and then I was, uh, 29 when I came out as living the dream. 797 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,000 But I came out as non-binary when I was 29. 798 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:02,840 And I think it was like, because for me, um, and I remember like one of my great friends 799 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,840 is trans. 800 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,020 She was, she was like, yeah, you're part of the community. 801 00:44:06,020 --> 00:44:09,260 And for a long time, I thought it was like, oh, you know, like non-binary sort of sits 802 00:44:09,260 --> 00:44:10,260 on the outside a little bit. 803 00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:12,900 And it's like, no, it's actually just part of the trans community. 804 00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:15,860 And I never really knew that until like talking to her. 805 00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:20,080 And she was like, no, it's like a whole, like people just don't talk about it. 806 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,440 Which she was like, it's terrible because like, we just kind of alienate everyone, but 807 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,440 it's the same of like, you know, anyone just being like, it's like people, you know, it's 808 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,240 like, well, if you're going to be pansexual, you may as well say you're bisexual because 809 00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:33,240 it's easier. 810 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,200 And it's like, well, that's what people literally think. 811 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:40,720 And it's like, well, no, no, I definitely identify as being pansexual, but that's like, 812 00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:43,840 you know, it's amazing how many people just go, oh, the label is easier because people 813 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,840 just commonly understand it. 814 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:54,080 But it's so interesting because I think we sort of like stepped in this great situation 815 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,560 of like accepting it. 816 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,960 I do think though in Australia, there's a lot of homophobia. 817 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,840 There's a lot of like bigotry. 818 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,720 Australia is not perfect. 819 00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:08,060 But I think I've been quite lucky in finding so many

friends. 820 00:45:08,060 --> 00:45:10,680 Like did you find that when you met your partner? 821 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:16,160 Was, you know, like with your whole like sexuality, did you automatically know you were pan or 822 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,280 was it very much like I find it? 823 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,760 So I went to school in South Carolina for a really long time. 824 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:23,760 Okay. 825 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:24,760 In the Bible Bouts. 826 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,280 Yeah, I was about to say, I was about to say that's fun. 827 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:36,840 I managed to skirt a lot of the more like really, really violent venomous rhetoric and 828 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,760 stuff like that, that was directed at more of the like effeminate guys, that sort of 829 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:48,480 thing that I knew some like bisexual emo kids in my middle school that were sort of that 830 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:49,480 was part of the scene. 831 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,600 And it was almost like it came with the it was couched in the culture in such a way that 832 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,840 it felt a little bit more appropriate than if it was one of just the guys on the football 833 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,320 team or something like that. 834 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,200 So there was still that word separation. 835 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:07,600 And then I went to a high school that my graduating class was like probably like 25 people or 836 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:08,600 something like that. 837 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,600 It was very small. 838 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,800 It was a dual enrollment high school. 839 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:17,120 And I didn't know anybody who was out and queer. 840 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:22,240 After the fact, I found out that like two of the guys that I originally gravitated to 841 00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:28,560 as friends were they they turned out to be very gay, very queer, very, you know, out. 842 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:35,920 But I think for a little while there, I was probably the only one that was saying, you 843 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,440 know, I'm pan, I'm not straight. 844 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:44,240 And that came from a completely hypothetical standpoint when I started hearing about the 845 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:48,360 queer people out in the ether, where it's places that are not here. 846 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,920 And I was dating a boy at the time his name was Graham. 847 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,440 And I was asked at some point, like if Graham was a girl, would you still date Graham? 848 00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:04,200 And it was just like, duh, like, yeah, it's like features that I find appealing. 849 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:10,640 And then I saw Foxfire Confessions of a Girl Gang in which, oh my god, diabolically underrated 850 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:18,080 movie Butch Angelina Jolie in the 90s, leading a vigilante girl gang. 851 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,840 Yeah, I've never heard of it. 852 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,520 It's insane that people haven't heard of this. 853 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:29,280 And so I know that she's walking around in her like combat boots and she's got her pixie 854 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,360 cut and she's it's all desperately queer coded. 855 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,140 And I was like, oh, oh, oh. 856 00:47:37,140 --> 00:47:41,920 And so I just sort of I had to just swallow that pill really, really quickly. 857 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,400 And then I became for a little while there, I was sort of like, like token queer girl 858 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,720 in that, you know, it would be the straight girls that would be like saying to their boyfriends, 859 00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,460 like, careful, or I'm gonna leave you for Sarah, that sort of thing. 860 00:47:52,460 --> 00:47:54,720 And it's sort of like, you get a little kick out of it. 861 00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:59,880 But it also made like actually being with somebody who wasn't just like a straight guy 862 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:06,680 seem like this kind of absurd, like, yeah, maybe in another world, that sort of thing. 863 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:12,960 And so it was really funny, because when I met Cass, I had straight up no clue what was 864 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:13,960 going on. 865 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:20,000 And that's exactly what Cass wants out of life is Cass just sometimes people will look 866 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,880 at him and they'll go, Okay, have a good day, ma'am, sir. 867 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:24,880 Sorry. 868 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:32,760 And then he'll just be like, yeah, because it's just that weird, like in the, the uncertainty 869 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:37,880 and the destabilization of other people's expectations, I think that he really loves. 870 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:45,840 And so whenever I first met him, I was and now he just uses he they, and for a while 871 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,200 there, I was just using they because I straight up had no clue what was happening. 872 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,320 I just knew that he was gorgeous. 873 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,840 And that he was the only person on campus who looked as miserable as I was whenever 874 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,600 I first saw him. 875 00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:04,120 And like big, huge hoodie, like arm band bracelets, like up the up the forearms, like gladiator 876 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,080 cuffs and everything. 877 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:16,640 And so we I think, both had concepts of queerness and of like gender nonconformity and things 878 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:17,640 like that. 879 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,080 And I think we were just such, we had had to focus on surviving high school and getting 880 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,560 into college so hard that we didn't even have the wherewithal. 881 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:31,740 And then when we met and hung out and started dating, it

all just happened very like organically. 882 00:49:31,740 --> 00:49:39,000 And so I think probably a lot of my thoughts and a lot of my values on the topic have been 883 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,560 filtered through CAS. 884 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:46,660 And then it's been sort of this loop of like, we don't have to go through the cultural perception 885 00:49:46,660 --> 00:49:52,920 of queerness because we got so close to each other so fast that it we were able to sort 886 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,880 of like stabilize each other in that way. 887 00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:02,440 And so now, I think we have our own kind of iteration of stuff that's going on that helps 888 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,080 us not fall into some of like the cultural waves that happen back and forth and like 889 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:12,400 the queer community and the weird like semantic back and forth stuff about like, are you pan? 890 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:13,400 Are you bi? 891 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,240 Are you straights at pride? 892 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:17,100 You know, like that sort of thing. 893 00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:22,520 It's just I think being being so like enmeshed in each other and so in love with each other, 894 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:27,200 we've gotten to like pocket away from that and just have like the queerness that we think 895 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,880 is cool and that we think is personal to us and then just take everybody else's sort of 896 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,160 a face value as it comes without that really rigid conformity. 897 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,560 Yeah, which I love. 898 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,560 I think it's like the shift away. 899 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,280 I mean, like it's very similar to how am and I sort of deal with things. 900 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:49,240 I think particularly when we were in Australia for like the last month, so many people mispronounced 901 00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:53,000 me and I was like, I was like, just kind of got to the point. 902 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:59,560 I was like, okay, well, my brains kind of lied a little bit, but it was so funny because 903 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,560 I think the moment we got back to Toronto, it felt like we were like, oh, okay, we can 904 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:13,240 switch back to how we were like, you know, and I think it's because we're very like, 905 00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:19,200 we went to a wedding for a friend and and was saying to me, she's like, I'm so queer, 906 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,960 like, you know, I'm married to someone who's queer. 907 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:28,480 I think that's, you know, the thing of just going to a very straight wedding is like, 908 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,200 just just like I don't compute, like I love my friend, absolutely want to support her. 909 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:40,600 But in terms of just like, people not, you know, understanding you is what drives me 910 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:41,600 to the

nth grade. 911 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:47,560 And it's really, it's like so sweet because she's like my biggest advocate. 912 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,920 So she's sort of like fights to the nth degree to make sure I'm seen. 913 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:57,560 And I do think that that makes me feel really lucky. 914 00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:03,280 And I think, you know, like the concept for people where it's like, they go, oh, but you 915 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:08,880 know, like, you know, because I can pass for sis, which has gotten me out of like a lot 916 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:14,920 of like problematic situations, which is sometimes great, depending where you go. 917 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:21,400 And I also like, I particularly think it has helped because a lot of the situations that 918 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:26,680 I deal with, not so much in the arts, but when I deal with like people on Facebook, 919 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,920 especially in work, I had to deal with a lot of backwards thinking people where it's like, 920 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,000 they just knew black and white. 921 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,760 They didn't know any better. 922 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,960 Like I've sat down, I've worked with people who like thought that, you know, people's 923 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:44,180 free will was dumb, you know, like, you know, like we should all, yeah, I know, I know. 924 00:52:44,180 --> 00:52:50,960 But I also I've worked with people, you know, like, think, think that, you know, like US 925 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:51,960 politics is fantastic. 926 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:58,200 And, you know, the way it was heading during Trump's initial era was the best thing. 927 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:05,420 You know, but I mean, and it's really interesting because I do think like, Australian little 928 00:53:05,420 --> 00:53:08,000 fun fact, Australians voting system is compulsory. 929 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,480 You have to legally vote or you get fined. 930 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:11,480 I didn't know that. 931 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:12,480 Yeah, do it America. 932 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:13,480 Make that legal. 933 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:20,800 Yeah, make it like a grand if you don't pay because amazingly people will do it. 934 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,480 But also don't make it like make the elections easy. 935 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,680 Like make it just like, God, you have a complicated system. 936 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,960 It's so dumb. 937 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:33,880 But you know, like, I think particularly being so prevalent to almost being like in Canada 938 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,000 where, you know, it's so interesting, people will say this to me. 939 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,280 And, you know, I think you have to live on this side of the world to really see the impact. 940 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:47,680 But I remember particularly, there was something I was saying to my mom was like, Oh, you know, 941 00:53:47,680

--> 00:53:51,440 I can't wait to see this sort of like Trump supporters in Canada come out of the woodwork 942 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,040 and you know, like, you know, particularly in November. 943 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,880 And I would be not surprised. 944 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,240 Mom was like, Oh, no, but it's Canada. 945 00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,840 I'm like, no, they will. 946 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,920 They'll they'll sneak their way out. 947 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,560 They'll find a way. 948 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:14,840 And it's a lot of it's not to do with like, it's just to do with the fact that I think 949 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:20,120 education, you know, like worldwide, like, you know, I'm blaming Western, I'm blaming 950 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:25,740 colonization, a lot of this, you know, but worldwide has always been quite terrible. 951 00:54:25,740 --> 00:54:29,480 And I think we sort of cut off a lot of it. 952 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:34,120 And that is what drove me so insane about Australia is when you go to the like, the 953 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:39,560 country, you go to the rural areas, where it's like just towns, like, you know, population 954 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,020 120 or something like that. 955 00:54:42,020 --> 00:54:44,820 And you talk to someone and you'd see the queer people there. 956 00:54:44,820 --> 00:54:50,440 And they would have their first Mardi Gras that year in 2022. 957 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,240 And I'm like, that's your first one. 958 00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:54,520 And it's exciting. 959 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,560 But you'd see how many people were like, you'd see all the bigots come out. 960 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,160 But then you'd also see other people who were very forage. 961 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,360 And the populace was there were more people for it. 962 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,640 They just didn't know that other people were for it. 963 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,240 And that's the thing. 964 00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:14,040 Like, I feel like we're in this consensus, people get scared. 965 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,760 Like, they get scared of which way, you know, like we're saying with voting, they just 966 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,360 get scared of, you know, and I will always say to someone is like, why would you want 967 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,280 to vote for someone that I necessarily wouldn't vote for? 968 00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,800 I want to understand so that I can see, because we had a referendum, which I think was really 969 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,280 interesting. 970 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:36,960 So Indigenous and First Nations Australians were going to be given a vote in parliament. 971 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:38,440 And it did not get passed. 972 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,080 It didn't end up, it was meant to be this big thing where it's like, they would get 973 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:46,000 a vote, they would know what would happen to the land that they originally owned. 974 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,000 Australia did not pass it. 975 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,280 The consensus was not enough people were for it. 976 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,920 And I remember saying to someone who worked with them said, this is the biggest step back 977 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,080 for Australia, is massively stepped back. 978 00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,000 And he was like, oh, I voted no. 979 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,000 Why did you vote no? 980 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,240 Like, why did you vote against it? 981 00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:05,560 And he was like, oh, my family owned farmland. 982 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:12,240 And I was like, okay, just because your family owns farmland does not mean the Indigenous 983 00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,840 nations, like Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people are going to take it back. 984 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,840 They're not going to rip your family full of land. 985 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:26,080 They just get a say to what happens to Australia and to the people of their tribes and their 986 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:27,080 tribes. 987 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:28,320 That's what makes it nuts. 988 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,400 And this is such an out on Australia, but we are incredibly racist country. 989 00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,520 We are like so problematic in terms of that. 990 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:42,120 But we get that we get all the worst parts because a lot of it was emigrated through 991 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,800 British hate, which then emigrated to the US and to Australia. 992 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,040 And we have not changed. 993 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:48,040 We have not changed. 994 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,880 And you know, like, I think what Canada does amazingly well is they have a tax exempt for 995 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,120 First Nation people, they make them pay a lower threshold. 996 00:56:55,120 --> 00:57:02,480 So you don't have to pay as much tax as like people who were white colonisation, like people. 997 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:03,840 And I think that's very fair. 998 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:04,840 Yeah, that's right. 999 00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:09,880 You know, that's that's a small, small little like gracious thing. 1000 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,080 But you know, it's it's like little things that, you know, I wish we you know, because 1001 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:19,920 I remember when the Black Lives Matter thing happened in Australia, I saw so many people 1002 00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:25,760 just be like, I'm going to buy some art, indigenous art, and that will be my contribution. 1003 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,240 And it was a running joke in Australia where all the white people would suddenly do it 1004 00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:30,720 and they're bringing this home. 1005 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,840 You know, I've got this piece of work. 1006 00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:41,000 I mean, do you particularly like Maine as

a state is a lot better than a lot of the 1007 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,760 Midwest and outer areas like versus other states. 1008 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,880 I mean, do you find that Maine's a particularly progressive state or is it still kind of like 1009 00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:51,520 on its pockets? 1010 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:57,160 Well, so here's the difference is I was in Little Beach, South Carolina for many years. 1011 00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,160 I was born originally up here in Maine. 1012 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,720 And you went you went there by choice. 1013 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,720 No, my dad. 1014 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:09,000 Yeah, my dad teaches US history up through the Civil War. 1015 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:10,000 And oh, wow. 1016 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,000 Yeah. 1017 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,000 PhD. 1018 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,760 And he's like six feet tall with a mustache and people all think that he's Sam Elliott. 1019 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,800 So that's my dad. 1020 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:23,800 And and then my mom's like this teeny tiny cute little also wicked smart wicked cool. 1021 00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:31,320 But they I think that he ended up down here specifically for the teaching job or down 1022 00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:32,320 there. 1023 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:33,320 Oh, God. 1024 00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,280 He ended up he he brought us down there. 1025 00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:38,360 And good gig. 1026 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,800 He's still teaching. 1027 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:48,640 But we ended up in the south and it was there's a lot of things down there that I still have 1028 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,480 a great love for. 1029 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:55,360 And one of them is the Bojangles chain, sausage, biscuits, dirty rice, etc. 1030 00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,360 But more than that, it's the black community. 1031 00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,320 And that's all we really don't have in Maine as much. 1032 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:07,280 There are pockets of Somali migrants who have have come to Maine specifically around here. 1033 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:08,440 Portland is pretty big for that. 1034 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,360 And then Lewiston, Auburn. 1035 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:17,120 And they faced an incredible amount of backlash, despite being like having this really flourishing, 1036 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:23,480 beautiful community and bringing so much to us and bringing their their professions and 1037 00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,240 their education and things like that. 1038 00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:34,240 But I just the way that I was able to live alongside the like southern black community 1039 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:42,200 down like the coastal black community was for me, it was so much more nourishing to 1040 00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:47,000 be around people and to see the actual like workings of humanity in that sense. 1041 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:52,280 And I think there's more progressiveness up here and in New England in general. 1042 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:57,080 But in these very white states like Maine and Massachusetts and New Hampshire, it's 1043 00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:05,380 sort of a theoretical progressiveness where it's like, you know, there'll be these people 1044 01:00:05,380 --> 01:00:13,880 who are they're very active in terms of like securing minority rights and protecting people, 1045 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,560 you know, based on things that they can't control across the board. 1046 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,880 But they also don't know how to relate to people of color. 1047 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:26,280 They don't know what they would do around a person of color. 1048 01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:34,960 And so it's sort of like the way that perceived vulnerability and like victimization dehumanizes 1049 01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:39,000 people by just a different turn as well. 1050 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:46,900 So that's the that's the tricky thing is that like Maine hypothetically is a much better 1051 01:00:46,900 --> 01:00:54,400 place for people of color in general to exist and to be represented and to not be mired 1052 01:00:54,400 --> 01:01:01,680 in the absolute muck of like the leftover plantation economy, you know, the like very 1053 01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:06,880 obviously still segregated areas of like South Carolina, North Carolina. 1054 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:13,760 And like, but the tricky thing is that we would have to get so much smarter, so much 1055 01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:20,400 quicker socially speaking, in order to really make that like a nurturing environment, because 1056 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:32,240 the it's it's just so much harder to truly advocate for people when you're coming from 1057 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:38,640 a position of such privilege that you don't even have to see their communities. 1058 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:43,320 You don't even have to see you know, one of the places that I was tutoring that I was 1059 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,360 volunteering at down south was an area called Race Path. 1060 01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,520 And I was working in an after school program there working with the kids. 1061 01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,640 And it was literally a blighted community. 1062 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:56,160 So they like economically speaking, the way that the infrastructure of that town is laid 1063 01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:01,100 out is different from the town over from it that's predominantly white. 1064 01:02:01,100 --> 01:02:07,300 And so it's stuff like that, that like, you people up here who haven't really met many 1065 01:02:07,300 --> 01:02:11,960 black people, especially not many like black Americans who are here as a result of ancestral 1066 01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:19,480 like slave trade, they don't really understand the ways in which community forms within and 1067 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,580 around those sorts of things. 1068 01:02:21,580 --> 01:02:30,200 So

up here, I think some of the like white savior complex, and it's everywhere, obviously, 1069 01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:37,120 but that can sort of erase the really beautiful groundbreaking things that black people have 1070 01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:38,120 done. 1071 01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:43,280 And I mean, so much of the southern culture, what we think of as as like country culture, 1072 01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:47,040 the cool things that we want to preserve and the things that people relate to are from 1073 01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,040 the black community. 1074 01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:54,680 I mean, if you think about like food and music and art, and even like architectural things, 1075 01:02:54,680 --> 01:03:00,560 the way that like people who are in these horrible situations for that long, you know, 1076 01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,280 like they're gonna make good things within it. 1077 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,540 And so it's not like, you know, take people and then move them somewhere else, move them 1078 01:03:06,540 --> 01:03:10,880 somewhere better, because like, for better or worse, the south is black people now. 1079 01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:17,520 And there's a there's a huge chunk that they're that like they are to thank for and where 1080 01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,780 they're comfortable and where they have their communities and where they know how to sort 1081 01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:25,400 of navigate their social reality in a way that we we can't really provide them in a 1082 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,880 place where we don't. 1083 01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,840 We don't already have that structure built for them. 1084 01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,920 So the difference is a weird one. 1085 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,160 And that's been the biggest. 1086 01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,000 That's been the biggest thing that I've missed, because there's definitely ways that we can 1087 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,680 advocate more for the Somali immigrants up here. 1088 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,600 But that's also a completely different. 1089 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,800 I mean, they're they're experiencing a lot of the overlap of vitriol at people of color 1090 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:55,400 and of people like women who are wearing hijabs and stuff like that. 1091 01:03:55,400 --> 01:04:00,320 But it's it's such a different it's so different. 1092 01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:04,880 And especially being confined to pockets and being still be able to told, you know, go 1093 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:10,480 back, go back to wherever, go back to where you came from, that sort of thing. 1094 01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:11,480 I don't know. 1095 01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:17,960 I just hope that that community is able to take root a little bit more firmly and that 1096 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:25,800 they're able to really find their their footing here to the extent that they want to. 1097 01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:30,280 Because I think that that would be the best thing like for

Maine in general, especially 1098 01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,880 like the Lewiston-Auburn area, things like that, like from an evil side, just the commerce 1099 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:39,400 alone bringing the food, bringing the arts, bringing the I mean, there's there's groups 1100 01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:44,600 that are specifically led by like Somali women that are community resource groups, community 1101 01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:50,440 gardens and things like that, and a lot of the white people of Maine have gotten real 1102 01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:54,560 just just real lazy about like community shit, you know. 1103 01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,520 And it's something that gets really it. 1104 01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:02,920 It's so in the forefront of your mind when you're being constantly discriminated against 1105 01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:10,680 and constantly othered that like it's like black communities, incredible, like the Latino 1106 01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:16,400 community is incredible, white people have like no accountability to each other. 1107 01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,120 It's so weird. 1108 01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:19,120 It's so weird to see. 1109 01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:23,240 I mean, I'm glad because I'd rather we not be able to organize just based by white people 1110 01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:24,240 anyways. 1111 01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:28,120 But at the same time, it's like, it's a fucking free roll out here. 1112 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:29,120 I know. 1113 01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,120 It's it is weird. 1114 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:32,120 Yeah. 1115 01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:39,320 I'm like, I didn't realize it's so like, particularly also that it's so wide until 1116 01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:41,560 I actually arrived. 1117 01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:44,960 And then I was like, God, it is why it's so wide. 1118 01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:50,320 And it's it's so funny to me because being in Toronto, there is like there's a massive 1119 01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:57,640 like Indian and Middle Eastern and you know, just this real sort of like you got African 1120 01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:59,840 American like, you know, people as well. 1121 01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:03,360 And so you really get the sense of community like everyone's like a migrant. 1122 01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:07,200 Everyone's come from some like Toronto is a great melting pot of like, everyone you 1123 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,760 speak to has a different accent, and it's kind of the best point where it's like, we've 1124 01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:11,760 all come here. 1125 01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:14,520 We're all doing this migrant experience. 1126 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,880 And it makes you feel like part of community and it makes you feel like you can just chat 1127 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:20,440 to anyone be like, where are you from? 1128 01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:21,440 Like, what's your background? 1129 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,000 What's you know, and it's really cool. 1130 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,400 But coming here, I was like, I was like, oh, it's in the back of my head saying, God, I 1131 01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:29,400 hate white people. 1132 01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:30,400 Yeah, everywhere. 1133 01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:31,400 Yeah. 1134 01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:32,400 Yeah. 1135 01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:33,400 We breed like wildfire. 1136 01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:34,400 It's terrible. 1137 01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:42,840 I mean, and there's this white privilege that obviously, you know, if we weren't white, 1138 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,920 you know, God, how far would we get? 1139 01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:46,640 Totally different experience. 1140 01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:54,160 But I do think there's something to be and I grew up with one of my friends was like, 1141 01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,360 indigenous when I was in like, preschool. 1142 01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:05,520 And I remember, she and I were very close and to probably like, you know, middle school. 1143 01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,500 And then we sort of went into our own social groups. 1144 01:07:07,500 --> 01:07:11,960 But I remember particularly we were, it was like everyone, you know, I was like, you're 1145 01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:12,960 my best friend. 1146 01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,280 Like, you know, we're kids and you're my best friend. 1147 01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,440 You know, but I do think that people were like, oh, you have that quintessential like 1148 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:19,440 best friend who's indigenous. 1149 01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,120 And I was like, no, they're just my best friend. 1150 01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,400 Like, I did not even put that into accountability. 1151 01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:29,120 And it's so interesting here, because I had that upbringing where I was like, I really 1152 01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:31,080 didn't think much about stuff like this. 1153 01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:35,280 It was like, we're all part of like, you know, just friends and getting to know each other 1154 01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,600 and having different experiences is the best. 1155 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:43,960 But I do get a real interest link when you know, like, and I think people need to do 1156 01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:47,200 some research and like stolen generation and stuff like that, where it's like people have 1157 01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,000 been taken to schools and forced in. 1158 01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:53,840 There's great Australian play, which is about the stolen generation where white Australians 1159 01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:59,040 would take kids from indigenous backgrounds and force them into Western culture schools. 1160 01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,160 And it was terrible. 1161 01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:02,160 Look it up. 1162 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:07,480 And but I particularly I do find it like such a weird thing where it's like, you know, and 1163 01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,080 I've had this conversation with one of my friends about like, you know,

perceiving race 1164 01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:16,200 and what is race and what is ethnicity and what is culture and and there's a great like 1165 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:19,340 there's a few documentaries on it as well, which is like, you know, some people say race 1166 01:08:19,340 --> 01:08:24,060 doesn't really exist, cultural exists, but race is kind of like something that humanity 1167 01:08:24,060 --> 01:08:29,240 made up to kind of compensate for the fact that we needed something to divide us and 1168 01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:33,560 rather than it being like, but cultural things are massive. 1169 01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,360 Like that is like, you know, where you've grown up, what you've done, you know, everything 1170 01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:37,960 like that, you know. 1171 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:39,720 And I think that is very prevalent. 1172 01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:46,060 I don't I do think that yeah, race is like probably overused as a word. 1173 01:08:46,060 --> 01:08:50,560 But like, I think we've sort of just put a branding on it and just gone, well, that's 1174 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:56,360 like, you know, and I think culture is really what is the most defining factor of like, 1175 01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:00,280 you know, what you've grown up with what your experiences are, because that really defines 1176 01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:01,280 us. 1177 01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:06,760 Like, as children, we're so susceptible to everything around us, our accents, the way 1178 01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:10,400 we talk, the way we structure ourselves. 1179 01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:14,040 And that to me says mountains more. 1180 01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,120 But then you also have kids who go, I want to know where I'm from, you know, if they've 1181 01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:21,440 been adopted, or they've, you know, come from different communities. 1182 01:09:21,440 --> 01:09:24,120 And that is also totally valid to find out where you're from. 1183 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:30,440 And I think like legacy and ancestry is such an important part of knowing so much about 1184 01:09:30,440 --> 01:09:39,800 yourself because the way the way we grow is DNA is, you know, like we learn through like, 1185 01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:45,600 you know, DNA, you know, and so there's like part of you that is like, from both your parents, 1186 01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,320 but also from your grandparents and part of like, you know, and that's how DNA strand 1187 01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:50,320 works. 1188 01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,160 And so you're an amalgamation of like so many different people. 1189 01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:55,040 And I think that's really awesome. 1190 01:09:55,040 --> 01:10:01,080 So when you when you grow up with the community and you grow up with diversity, and I think, 1191 01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,960 you know, I talked to a lot of people which, you know, they go, why did you travel from 1192 01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,240 Australia, Australia so far, I'm like, oh,

you should go to Australia. 1193 01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:07,560 And they're like, oh, it's too far. 1194 01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,000 Like, I don't want to go on a plane for 21 hours. 1195 01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:11,280 I'm like, you should though. 1196 01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:15,040 Yeah, like get out of your comfort zone, go somewhere else. 1197 01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:20,520 It's the best thing I went to, like, I've been to three countries where they don't speak 1198 01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:21,520 English. 1199 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:25,560 And, you know, it was the best experience of my life to not go somewhere where you know 1200 01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:26,560 the language. 1201 01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:32,240 And I was like, this is just an eye opener, because it's forced me to get really uncomfortable 1202 01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:33,280 very quickly. 1203 01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:39,080 And I love that feeling of stepping outside of my box and going, I'm, I'm up to the elements, 1204 01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:41,840 like, fuck, what do you do? 1205 01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:46,680 And I get the privilege that I have, which is being a white person. 1206 01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:52,320 And you know, like, you know, being cis passing has also, you know, as I said before, gotten 1207 01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:55,040 me out of some sticky situations. 1208 01:10:55,040 --> 01:11:01,720 But I do think it is also like, you need to be open minded, you need to, you know, really 1209 01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,400 see the world. 1210 01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:10,320 Like it's, it's so frustrating when I hear people not understand the outside of their 1211 01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:14,520 own little like segregated box and just go, oh, it's all normal. 1212 01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:15,520 Yeah. 1213 01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:16,520 I just want to amuse it. 1214 01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:20,440 Oh, the nose blindness that comes from the division is wild. 1215 01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:25,040 And I think I noticed it the most keenly when I started learning more about social linguistics, 1216 01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:30,920 which is like, there are so many people who, especially down south, and even, but I can't 1217 01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:36,440 even say that just all across America who think that they are totally colorblind. 1218 01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:38,400 They don't, you know, I love black people. 1219 01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:43,560 I voted for Obama, but then they see something like African American vernacular English, 1220 01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,840 which is, I mean, it has its own grammar structure. 1221 01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:48,080 It has its own rules. 1222 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:52,040 Like it is a, I mean, it's a dialect, but also like some people were regarded as a whole 1223 01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,080 intact language on its own. 1224 01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:57,520 And like, they'll see that and they'll say like, well, that's a mistake that's being 1225 01:11:57,520 --> 01:11:58,520 made. 1226 01:11:58,520 --> 01:11:59,520 Clearly someone's uneducated. 1227 01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:01,120 They don't speak the way that I do. 1228 01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:06,360 And so, you know, or even just the way that we'll perceive non-native English speakers 1229 01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:13,000 with broken English, which is a pejorative phase, but like they'll be seen as less intelligent 1230 01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:18,920 because they can't form the same like syntactical structure as a native English speaker, but 1231 01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:22,040 they'll be perceived that way by people who are monolinguists. 1232 01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:23,840 Like I don't know another language. 1233 01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:28,760 If I hear somebody speaking a version of English that I can, I can understand, but I can recognize 1234 01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,240 their accent in it or their original grammar structure in it. 1235 01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,620 They know another language that I don't. 1236 01:12:34,620 --> 01:12:37,880 And so it's that like cognitive dissonance that I think is really persistent. 1237 01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:42,760 And so one of the things that I always, I love to beat the shit out of people with in 1238 01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:49,400 conversation is like, when people try to say, you know, I'll hear a black person say or 1239 01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:56,960 write like, well, we always be doing this, you know, and they immediately take that as 1240 01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:58,920 like, oh, nope, you didn't play the game right. 1241 01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:03,580 I have to police you now because the ivory tower tells me that I know English better 1242 01:13:03,580 --> 01:13:04,580 than you do. 1243 01:13:04,580 --> 01:13:09,920 But really that's the habitual B that appears in all kinds of languages and a lot of our 1244 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:10,920 structures. 1245 01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,160 So like you never end a sentence with a preposition. 1246 01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:20,120 Like the structure makes complete sense to us intuitively. 1247 01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:22,080 Everybody knows what we're saying. 1248 01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:27,880 It sounds the most natural to the ear and it works the most naturally in the mouth. 1249 01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:32,840 But people like prescriptive grammarians will still try to say, no, you can't use that sentence 1250 01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:33,840 like that. 1251 01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,040 It's not correct because it's not following a Latin structure. 1252 01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,560 This is not a Latin language. 1253 01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:40,880 It was never a Latin language. 1254 01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,880 It was especially never a pure Latin language. 1255 01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:48,640 I mean, we've got all kinds of, you know, like Germanic, the fucking the like French 1256 01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,680 influence on terribly. 1257 01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:53,120 There's so many

things and I love it. 1258 01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:56,360 I love English because it's a mud of a language. 1259 01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:00,360 And it's just, it's, well, it's horrible because it's very hard to break into as a non-native 1260 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:01,360 English speaker. 1261 01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,120 It's like one of the hardest languages in the world. 1262 01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:04,120 Exactly. 1263 01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,820 But it's also kind of beautiful in this other way that like you can see all the claw marks 1264 01:14:07,820 --> 01:14:10,360 all over it whenever you're studying it. 1265 01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:16,920 But to have that absolutely absurd backwards-ass bastardized language and then to have the 1266 01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:22,680 people who speak it from birth try to police it as though it's this immaculate, like, well, 1267 01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:24,840 we figured it all out correctly. 1268 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:29,160 Like the word the is pronounced in multiple different ways. 1269 01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:32,200 The sentence, I never said she stole my money. 1270 01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,800 You put different emphasis on each one of those words and it means something completely 1271 01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:36,840 different. 1272 01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:43,560 And it's like all this stuff, you know, it's, it's sort of a grab for comfort because especially 1273 01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:48,520 people who don't have a ton of formal education in English, they say, well, I know which there 1274 01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:49,960 versus there to use. 1275 01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:54,160 And so I have something that I can kind of bolster myself with and I have something that 1276 01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:56,540 I can wield over other people. 1277 01:14:56,540 --> 01:15:00,520 And so I always say that it's like, that's one of the quickest ways to tell whether somebody 1278 01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:06,600 has really studied English or whether they've just been introduced to the heavily prescribed 1279 01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:10,280 version of it that we use to make kids feel like shit. 1280 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,880 Because it's, it's, it's whether you love the language and you, you study it and you 1281 01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:18,520 see it for what it is and you're interested in the ways that it's changing and in the 1282 01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:22,640 ways that it's inconsistent or whether you wield it like a weapon and you say, if this 1283 01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,920 changes then I'm absolutely fucked. 1284 01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:29,560 Cause I don't know what Riz means and I don't know what the skippity toilet is. 1285 01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:30,560 No. 1286 01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:34,560 And the thing, the thing that makes me laugh the most is in Australia, we shorten words. 1287 01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:40,120 We've got like, we're very, cause we, we had like Irish cockney, like that's a lot 1288 01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:41,120 of our convicts. 1289 01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:48,640 The convicts who came over were from Ireland, you know, and like Cornwall and stuff like 1290 01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:49,640 that. 1291 01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,720 They were English like, so a lot of it was bastardized even further. 1292 01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:54,800 So they shortened words. 1293 01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,920 And particularly when we came over, I was like throwing words out there, like, you know, 1294 01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,600 I was like, oh, you know, the Savo, we're going to do something. 1295 01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:03,000 It's like, AVO, Savo. 1296 01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:04,540 So this afternoon. 1297 01:16:04,540 --> 01:16:07,600 So that was like our shortened version. 1298 01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:10,840 This is another word we use, so I'll do that in a squiz. 1299 01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:15,160 Squiz means in a tick and in a tick, you know, like quite soon. 1300 01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:19,880 So you say, oh, or, or my other favorite is like, I'll take a squiz of that, which is 1301 01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:20,880 I'll take a look at that. 1302 01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:21,880 Oh my God. 1303 01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:22,880 Yeah. 1304 01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:23,940 So squiz is a very common word in Australia. 1305 01:16:23,940 --> 01:16:30,640 It's like a monaculum and I love it because you know, the, there are so many words that 1306 01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:36,760 we use in Australian, like colloquialisms that, you know, and the fact that my father-in-law 1307 01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,640 was Canadian born and is an immigrant. 1308 01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:45,760 He loves the fact that like he now knows shortened like words because it's fun. 1309 01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:49,400 Because when he gets to talk to his, you know, his sister, he can kind of like trick her 1310 01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,340 out and, you know, give her words because she's lived in Canada her whole life. 1311 01:16:53,340 --> 01:16:59,760 So it's, there is a joy to being like, you know, knowing different ways of, you know, 1312 01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:01,660 like languages have formed. 1313 01:17:01,660 --> 01:17:09,520 And there is like also like so, so funny because like my mom, obviously someone who studied 1314 01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:12,520 English, studied it to the nth degree. 1315 01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:13,760 And then went, this is wrong. 1316 01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:14,920 You can't pronounce it like this. 1317 01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:19,120 I'm like, no, you should like just pronounce it any way you fucking want. 1318 01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:24,040 Like it's cause the whole point of like changing, you know, like Shakespeare made up words, 1319 01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:27,700 Shakespeare specifically made up words to fill in gaps. 1320 01:17:27,700 --> 01:17:33,600 And now we use them as like, you know, sentences all the time. 1321 01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:41,560 And I really think that, and

someone who like I have ADHD, so a lot of my word processing 1322 01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:43,640 was like skew with all my life. 1323 01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:50,440 So I kind of loved that of being like, Oh, like pros will never quite, I'll say something 1324 01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:54,720 or I'll say like, um, you know, a sentence and it might be a little bit jarring or it 1325 01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:55,720 might be. 1326 01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:59,440 But it makes sense to me because I understand this way of talking. 1327 01:17:59,440 --> 01:18:06,260 So you know, I do love that that is a, this is a way of like distinguishing. 1328 01:18:06,260 --> 01:18:11,440 And I've met so many people like around the world. 1329 01:18:11,440 --> 01:18:17,880 And you know, I think the fun is like learning how to talk to them through their own vernacular 1330 01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,480 and never, and like teaching them your own, like, you know, finding the mid ground where 1331 01:18:21,480 --> 01:18:23,800 you go, okay, I'll say it like this, but you say it like that. 1332 01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,680 But like, how do we, how do we find it? 1333 01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:32,360 And I think, you know, it's the joy of, um, uh, particularly I'm a huge, if we're going 1334 01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:37,460 back to a film and horror films that I love Robert Eggers, who's a fantastic, who did 1335 01:18:37,460 --> 01:18:43,600 the witch and, um, is about to do Nosferatu, but, um, he uses old language. 1336 01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:47,120 Like he does so much research into the language of the time. 1337 01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,360 And it's amazing how many people come out and go, Oh, I didn't understand a word of 1338 01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:51,360 that. 1339 01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:55,560 And I'm like, the point is it's not, it was how they spoke. 1340 01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:59,280 And it was terribly like, you know, all over the place. 1341 01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:01,520 And, but that's how people spoke. 1342 01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,440 That's how it was written. 1343 01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:09,640 And you understand it because, you know, like words, words like meek, um, and stuff were 1344 01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:15,760 used so commonly then, um, just describe someone who's like almost pathetic or, you know, no 1345 01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:16,760 strength. 1346 01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:23,440 And I love when people use old words that are no longer around. 1347 01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:29,040 I mean, is that kind of like your joy as a writer to kind of like find, find little like 1348 01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:31,760 snippets to be like, what am I going to talk to someone today? 1349 01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:38,920 Well, I took my, uh, my mentor Hastings Hensel's his, his note on keeping a list of just cool 1350 01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:41,040 words that you like. 1351 01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:47,000 Um, and so I have just an entire rundown of different weird words. 1352 01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:51,280 Like, I didn't know Zenith until recently, like, yeah. 1353 01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:53,560 Zenith I've heard of them before. 1354 01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,680 A planet is at like, it's, it's peak positioning. 1355 01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:01,160 That's not a great one, but that's a great word. 1356 01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:05,400 Contraposto that yeah, I didn't know that that was this, you know, like positioning 1357 01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:08,400 in portraiture and in statues and stuff like that. 1358 01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,280 Um, so many, so many different things. 1359 01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,200 I learned, um, Parthenogenesis. 1360 01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:13,600 Oh yes. 1361 01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:14,600 Yeah. 1362 01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,840 For this novel, wicked cool. 1363 01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:19,720 And I love, um, I love doing poetry. 1364 01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:20,720 I just don't trust poetry. 1365 01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:26,440 And so I don't do it as much anymore, but, um, whenever I did that, like economy of language 1366 01:20:26,440 --> 01:20:31,440 and findings that this really, really cool, um, Oh, my, my favorite lyricist, John Darnielle 1367 01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:36,840 of mountain goats does a lot of that where he'll use a word that, um, he has a song called 1368 01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:37,840 autoclave. 1369 01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:43,720 I didn't know what an autoclave was, but this, the refrain is my heart's an autoclave. 1370 01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:48,400 And so it's like, he'll use language that's like, well, yeah, you like the beat. 1371 01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:50,560 You like the, the vocals. 1372 01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:53,680 Like if you want to really get another layer of this, you're going to have to look up what 1373 01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:58,120 the hell I'm talking about, you know, uses biblical illusions that way too. 1374 01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:02,760 Um, so yeah, I think that's, um, that's a big one for me in etymology. 1375 01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:06,000 I only recently found out, and I was thinking about this from what you said earlier, that, 1376 01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:11,520 um, the uppercase and lowercase etymology of that and where that comes from, from the, 1377 01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:17,120 like the printing press, what letters are kept on literally the upper case of the thing 1378 01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:19,000 that's opening up versus the bottom one. 1379 01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,660 Wild friend of mine who's in, he's doing law, he's a law clerk. 1380 01:21:22,660 --> 01:21:26,280 He was explaining something to me and he just said, I don't know where, um, it's basically 1381 01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:28,360 a boiler plate this. 1382 01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,420 And I was like, Oh, what? 1383 01:21:31,420 --> 01:21:32,660 And so he's like boilerplate. 1384 01:21:32,660 --> 01:21:34,360 It means just like kind of copy paste. 1385 01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:36,480 Like it's, it's the standard

format for something. 1386 01:21:36,480 --> 01:21:40,200 And I was like, that is just bullshit of a word. 1387 01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:42,640 Like where did that come from? 1388 01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:43,740 Boilerplate. 1389 01:21:43,740 --> 01:21:47,920 And so it's stuff like that, that I love seeing, cause that's the human element of language, 1390 01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:48,920 right? 1391 01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:53,720 It's like you, you could refine everything to be as quick and as concise or something 1392 01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:58,240 as you want, but people are gonna mess with it regardless in between. 1393 01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:01,680 And I think that's one of the things that we really struggle with from generation to 1394 01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:08,320 generation too, where you stop knowing the slang and the, um, the vocabulary stops being 1395 01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:09,760 as intuitive to you. 1396 01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:14,400 The immediate reaction is fear for a lot of people because then how do I know that I'm 1397 01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:19,080 being understood and how do I know that I'm communicating like capital R right? 1398 01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:21,360 And just like learn and listen. 1399 01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:24,880 And a lot of it, I didn't know that Riz was from the word charisma. 1400 01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:27,040 That's cool as hell. 1401 01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:28,040 I love that. 1402 01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:34,600 I think it's also like for me, I've my entire life had to learn new words, like, you know, 1403 01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:36,720 and that's also because of tech jargon. 1404 01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:42,840 Like when someone, you know, like jargons are real, like new like thing all the time. 1405 01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:44,460 It's like, why was this called thing? 1406 01:22:44,460 --> 01:22:45,460 Why was this called that? 1407 01:22:45,460 --> 01:22:47,760 Why was this called, um, so-and-so? 1408 01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:52,000 And you realize that people are just like, it's legacy, you know, and even then it's 1409 01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:53,400 like people go, what's legacy? 1410 01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:58,720 And you're like, well, the legacy of like, you know, words just sticking around because 1411 01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:03,400 my favorite one is, um, you know, from film sets, which is sound speed. 1412 01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:07,920 And the original reason that it was speed is because the tape actually had to get up 1413 01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,600 to a certain speed and then it could able to record sound. 1414 01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:13,700 But we never knew that until we went to uni. 1415 01:23:13,700 --> 01:23:21,280 And so for me, I was like, this is a really cool, like reason that has stuck around because 1416 01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,960 you don't want to just go, I'm recording, like that just sounds really boring. 1417 01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:31,200 So you kind of keep these cool little ways of saying stuff,

um, along. 1418 01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,840 And I do think there's certain terminology that never goes away. 1419 01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,120 There's certain words that will never go away. 1420 01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:39,240 Um, and then we'll change. 1421 01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:44,360 Um, but like, I remember when lol started being used like daily by people. 1422 01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:49,440 Um, and you know, now like slays become a very big word, which I love. 1423 01:23:49,440 --> 01:23:54,560 Um, but you know, like the next generation coming in are always finding new words. 1424 01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:58,960 Like I've, I've, you know, sometimes surrounded myself with like, you know, when I, on the 1425 01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:03,620 set or something, I'll be like around 19, 20 year olds and they're throwing out words. 1426 01:24:03,620 --> 01:24:11,320 Like my, um, my 15 year old, um, uh, cousin's kid is like throwing out new words at me. 1427 01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:13,080 I'm like, what the fuck? 1428 01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:15,480 Like tell me everything I need to know. 1429 01:24:15,480 --> 01:24:16,480 I need to absorb. 1430 01:24:16,480 --> 01:24:19,420 Like, it's just, it's just so fascinating. 1431 01:24:19,420 --> 01:24:24,480 But I think it's like the real shift of the, um, the language and you know, how, you know, 1432 01:24:24,480 --> 01:24:29,760 cause there is a theory, there is a, like, um, a lot of the languages that we know how 1433 01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:31,080 useful they are. 1434 01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:35,240 Uh, there's a statistics out there, which I looked up recently is there's, there's a 1435 01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:37,440 lot of languages that are not really useful anymore. 1436 01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:41,740 Like they were really interesting back in the day because we were all sort of like everywhere, 1437 01:24:41,740 --> 01:24:44,520 but now as times going on, they kind of like a dying. 1438 01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:50,240 So Italian, the language of Italy is really useless now considering the math. 1439 01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:51,240 Yeah. 1440 01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:54,560 But it's still, it's only stuck around because of generational like stuff. 1441 01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:59,520 So a lot of the reason like languages stick around, um, but, um, Cantonese and Mandarin 1442 01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:04,540 are some of the most popular languages that most people speak around the world and then 1443 01:25:04,540 --> 01:25:07,280 English and like, those are the three like top. 1444 01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:13,520 So they, there's a statistic reckoned that one day they will be, um, Mandarin and Cantonese 1445 01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:16,840 and English will be the only languages that anyone ever speaks. 1446 01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:18,400 And that's it. 1447 01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:23,760 Um, and isn't that fascinating that maybe in millions of years, like, you know, that 1448 01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:29,000 we'll have old texts, um, like the Rosetta stone, like to me is fascinating because we 1449 01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:34,680 had no way of understanding, um, Egyptian hieroglyphs and now we do. 1450 01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:39,080 And that's like a stone that was found years after. 1451 01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:41,880 Um, so that's how languages evolve. 1452 01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:43,400 And one day we won't be able to read anything. 1453 01:25:43,400 --> 01:25:48,040 I mean, like you, you know, scientists do say that one day in 5 billion years, this 1454 01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:51,320 planet will be ash and you know, nothing. 1455 01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:56,520 Um, and we'll be off on another planet if we survive at that point, but it's, it's fascinating, 1456 01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:57,520 isn't it? 1457 01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:59,800 It's just like, we don't actually know. 1458 01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:04,440 So there is, there is sort of like, I know going into the existential crisis moment of 1459 01:26:04,440 --> 01:26:07,440 like, you know, do what's the point of everything. 1460 01:26:07,440 --> 01:26:08,440 I think there was a lot of point. 1461 01:26:08,440 --> 01:26:14,720 I think it's just fascinating to see the evolution of something go and be like, how do we, you 1462 01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:18,680 know, keep some things alive, but also evolve into new words. 1463 01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,720 And I mean, like that's the joy of being, I guess, a writer. 1464 01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:23,080 Um, you know, 1465 01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:26,480 Ooh, now do you guys have a home dialect? 1466 01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:32,440 Do you have things that is like just shorthand in your house from being partnered? 1467 01:26:32,440 --> 01:26:38,040 Um, a few, a few, I can't remember off the top of my head. 1468 01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:43,560 Cause we, Cass and I have descended into almost just like Muppet speak. 1469 01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:45,240 It is so dire. 1470 01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:46,240 Yeah. 1471 01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:52,760 It's, um, if a cat is doing something that's really cute, usually belly out, you know, 1472 01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:54,240 like splay it on the floor. 1473 01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:59,240 Uh, we started saying like, ew, like, oh my God, that's, you're so gross. 1474 01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,200 Oh, you're so disgusting. 1475 01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:03,480 And then that got short and disgusting. 1476 01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:06,480 And then, so now if I'm like, radio is being disgusting on the cat. 1477 01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:09,880 He knows that he can go over and she's probably splay it out. 1478 01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:16,520 And there's, um, can, can I have my, can I have my wawa bottle? 1479 01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:18,040 It's just like toddler speak. 1480 01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:20,040 Cause it's just shorter and shorter and shorter. 1481 01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:21,040 Tricious. 1482 01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:22,040 I love it. 1483 01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:23,040

Brutal. 1484 01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:24,040 It is so bad. 1485 01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:25,040 It gets to the point back and forth. 1486 01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:28,480 I mean, we could make noises just back and forth at each other forever, but between me 1487 01:27:28,480 --> 01:27:32,200 shortening things, coming up with my own idioms and stuff like that. 1488 01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:33,200 And then, 1489 01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:34,200 Oh yeah. 1490 01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:40,880 Like we've, um, we, we still like say when I love you, we say, mom, you, like we do things 1491 01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:42,920 like that, or it's just like not even words. 1492 01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:50,560 It's just the noise of, um, and, or like, um, when we need something, like we have, 1493 01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:55,420 we use the word need now, as in when we need to get out of a situation or we need each 1494 01:27:55,420 --> 01:27:58,120 other's support, we just go need. 1495 01:27:58,120 --> 01:27:59,120 And that's it. 1496 01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:03,000 And it's like just a little words where it's like, you know, we've just taken a word and 1497 01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:04,200 we just go, we want that. 1498 01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:05,200 That's it. 1499 01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:06,200 That's it. 1500 01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:08,000 And we don't need to communicate that to anyone else. 1501 01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,600 And there is a joy in that. 1502 01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:15,320 Um, um, but yeah, it's like, you know, so bizarre. 1503 01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:18,640 And it's a microcosm of what happens to language on a wide scale, right? 1504 01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:23,760 So like if you want to know what a word is going to sound like in 200 years, if you say 1505 01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:27,800 it really fast over and over again, you'll hear where your palate is going to start to 1506 01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:29,640 kind of skip steps. 1507 01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,720 Because really the way that words change, um, unless it's for like a cultural reason 1508 01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:37,240 or it's getting misconstrued as something, it's just our mouths being lazy. 1509 01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:40,840 And especially the American palate is very, very, very lazy. 1510 01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:45,640 Um, I mean, you can even hear it in a more like country and rural dialects where people 1511 01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:48,920 are used to having chewing tobacco in front of their teeth and you can hear them talking 1512 01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:49,920 around it. 1513 01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:54,760 Um, the new England accents in general are so much more like English and British still 1514 01:28:54,760 --> 01:28:55,760 we non-rhotic. 1515 01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:59,960 We lose our Rs at the end of our sentences and the end of our words. 1516 01:28:59,960 --> 01:29:01,520 And so it's our words. 1517 01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:02,520 Yeah. 1518 01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:05,480 I've gotten to the point where I can

say like, well, I have to go out to the car and get 1519 01:29:05,480 --> 01:29:08,960 something and that's slightly different than what I would say in South Carolina, which 1520 01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:10,440 is I have to go to the car. 1521 01:29:10,440 --> 01:29:11,440 Yeah. 1522 01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:14,320 And it's, you know, it's just sitting in a totally different place in your mouth and 1523 01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:19,000 you can straight up just if you're with somebody for long enough or in like the tech community, 1524 01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:22,960 I'm sure has like a totally different, I know laws like that. 1525 01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:27,600 Like there's, there's words that are the same that are pronounced the same, means something 1526 01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:28,600 different. 1527 01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:31,800 There are words that are emphatically used differently. 1528 01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:33,080 It's just, it's so cool. 1529 01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:37,800 And it's one of the things that like, well, they say that it's linguistics is the only 1530 01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:42,720 science that everybody thinks they're an expert on because when you're using a language, it 1531 01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:43,720 feels very intimate to you. 1532 01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:48,040 And it feels like when it's not being used the same way, it's being used wrong. 1533 01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:51,920 But in reality, it's like watching like a tide pool where if you see something that's 1534 01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:53,760 not, you're like, oh shit, that's weird. 1535 01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:56,640 You're not going to pull it out and go like, okay, get out of here. 1536 01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:59,000 Like you're going to look at it and be like, this is interesting. 1537 01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:00,320 This is fascinating. 1538 01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:02,280 This fish I haven't seen before in this reef. 1539 01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:03,880 Oh my God, get it away from me. 1540 01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:05,560 Like, no, you're going to be like, this is weird. 1541 01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:06,560 What does this mean? 1542 01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:08,120 What are the ramifications? 1543 01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:11,120 And I just wish, I wish more people dealt with language that way, especially because 1544 01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:17,060 so many people have like home languages that they've constructed with their, their siblings 1545 01:30:17,060 --> 01:30:21,880 or their partners or something like that, just from, from shortening words from like 1546 01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:22,880 inside jokes. 1547 01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:28,280 I, at one point I heard a woman yell at her Rottweiler and because it was chasing ducks 1548 01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:31,720 on the beach and she said, you're not going to get them, Linda. 1549 01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:36,240 So now every Rottweiler that I see is Linda to me specifically. 1550 01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:40,160 So if I say, oh my God, it's a Linda, you

know that that's what you're going to be seeing. 1551 01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:44,600 And so it's stuff like that, that it's just, it's not even necessarily quicker. 1552 01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:49,560 I guess maybe it's one syllable shorter, but it's just for being a personal thing, you 1553 01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:50,560 know? 1554 01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,200 And I drink a lot of seltzer water, but I just say, seltzy. 1555 01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:54,200 Oh my God. 1556 01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:55,200 It's just my seltzy. 1557 01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:56,200 That's all. 1558 01:30:56,200 --> 01:31:00,600 Which is going to be probably the most controversial thing that I've said on here. 1559 01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:05,440 Cause people either really like seltzer water or they absolutely hate seltzer water. 1560 01:31:05,440 --> 01:31:06,440 Wow. 1561 01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:10,240 You've just really, I really divided, completely divided the audience. 1562 01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:14,080 Cause some people they're expecting sugar in it, but it's not. 1563 01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:16,440 It's just, it's just water with a little kiss. 1564 01:31:16,440 --> 01:31:18,920 It's a little water that kisses you. 1565 01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:19,920 Yeah. 1566 01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:20,920 So delicate. 1567 01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:21,920 Exactly. 1568 01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:22,920 That's what I'm saying. 1569 01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,520 Like, but no, I'll fight to the death about it. 1570 01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:26,520 Yeah. 1571 01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:27,520 Seltzy. 1572 01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:29,600 Um, our cats are ham sandwich and radio. 1573 01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:30,600 Hammy is just Hammy. 1574 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:31,600 Yeah. 1575 01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:32,600 Radio. 1576 01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:33,600 We'll just call it radio. 1577 01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:34,600 Ham radio. 1578 01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:35,600 Radio. 1579 01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:36,600 Yeah. 1580 01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:37,600 I didn't even mean to do that originally. 1581 01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:40,080 We actually, we got radio first and then Hammy came in. 1582 01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:41,080 It's a ham radio. 1583 01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:42,080 Yeah. 1584 01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:43,080 That to me is the best. 1585 01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:44,080 Exactly. 1586 01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:49,080 Um, I'm afraid we're running out of time. 1587 01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:52,800 I know I could talk to you forever. 1588 01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:53,800 We're going to go get lunch though. 1589 01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:54,800 Yeah, I know. 1590 01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,400 I mean like, look, and we're going to go and do photos and it's going to be great. 1591 01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:01,120 But can I just say I've loved chatting to you. 1592 01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:02,120 This is so much fun. 1593 01:32:02,120 --> 01:32:03,120 I'm going to annoy you. 1594 01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:04,920 You came all the way out here. 1595 01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:05,920 I know. 1596 01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:08,800 Well, I'm going to come out again at some point and then I'll annoy you again. 1597 01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:09,800 Please. 1598 01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,760 Because yeah, then we'll go and do a big adventure. 1599 01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:17,440 When you're not going into surgery, trying to aim it away from a surgery. 1600 01:32:17,440 --> 01:32:20,000 Um, but no, Sarah, where can people find you on the internet? 1601 01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:21,000 Where can they stalk you? 1602 01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:26,520 So right now, before I implode it from the ground up, before I hit the demolition Instagram 1603 01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:28,800 of coin swallow there. 1604 01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:34,680 And if you want to stare at Echo versus slate where darker further down is listed and you 1605 01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:36,680 can see my little icon for it. 1606 01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:41,400 And you could see my little description that is on, I believe just echo verse.com. 1607 01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:43,640 You're the production company that I'm working with. 1608 01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:48,320 Um, and other than that, you'll have to chase me down yourself. 1609 01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:50,400 You'll have to find me. 1610 01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:51,400 You'll have to sniff me out. 1611 01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:52,400 God, that sounds horrible. 1612 01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:56,520 It makes you sound like really ominous of just like, fine. 1613 01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:57,520 I'm fast too. 1614 01:32:57,520 --> 01:32:58,520 Yeah. 1615 01:32:58,520 --> 01:32:59,520 Yeah. 1616 01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:00,520 Yeah. 1617 01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:04,040 You're like, you're like that crab walk, like, you know, just like, you'll see me and then 1618 01:33:04,040 --> 01:33:05,040 I'm gone. 1619 01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:08,960 I'm just getting Toy Story in the back of my head where it's like that scene where all 1620 01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:13,920 the like disformed toys come out and like, I'm like, Oh, you're like the one with the 1621 01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:15,640 baby head doll and the spider legs. 1622 01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:17,600 I have way more appendages than it looks like. 1623 01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:18,600 Yeah. 1624 01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:19,600 You hide it well. 1625 01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:20,600 It's the big sweater. 1626 01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:21,600 Yeah, I know. 1627 01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:23,920 You're like, I mean, they can see it because it's like being filmed, but also I love the 1628 01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:28,360 idea because if no one sees this film version, they'll just imagine you as a giant spider 1629 01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:29,360 creature. 1630 01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:30,360 Which is great. 1631 01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:31,360 It's appropriate. 1632 01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:32,360 Feminine horror. 1633 01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:33,360 We got it. 1634 01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:34,360 We looped back. 1635 01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:35,360 It worked. 1636 01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:36,360 So good. 1637 01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:37,880 Um, I've loved chatting you. 1638 01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:39,160 Thank you so much for coming on. 1639 01:33:39,160 --> 01:33:40,160 Thank you. 1640 01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:43,720 And if you want to go and check out more episodes of Things We Do, you can check them out on 1641 01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:44,720 Apple and Spotify. 1642 01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:47,440 I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later. 1643 01:33:47,440 --> 01:33:48,440 Goodbye! 1644 01:33:48,440 --> 01:34:12,100 BOO!