TRANSCRIPT 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:02.479
Let's continue the conversation.
00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:04.400
Yesterday we put a lot of language on the table.
00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:05.280
Let's take a second with it.
00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:05.839
Simp.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:11.199
Alpha male, beta male, high value man, high value woman, red pill, body count, 50-50.
00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:13.919
Provider, protector, traditional man, traditional woman.
00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:15.919
And then that question that seems to show up everywhere.
00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:17.120
Now, what do you bring to the table?
00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:18.960
But this morning I don't want to start with the language.
00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:25.039
I want to start somewhere underneath it because I'm wondering, what if some of what we've been calling wisdom is actually woundedness?
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:30.399
That's a hard question for me because when somebody tells me, don't ever give more than you're getting, that can sound like wisdom.
00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:31.280
Protect yourself.
00:00:31.440 --> 00:00:32.399
That can sound like wisdom.
00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:33.920
Don't trust too quickly.
00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:35.200
That can sound like wisdom.
00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:38.079
Never allow another person to have enough of you to destroy you.
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:43.600
After you've been hurt badly enough, that can sound like some of the best wisdom you've ever heard, and maybe some of it is.
00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:46.640
But how would we know when wisdom ends and the wound begins?
00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:47.840
Tell me what you think about that.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:48.640
Leave me a comment.
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:49.200
I'm serious.
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:50.799
I don't just want you listening to this conversation.
00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:51.679
I want you in it.
00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:54.240
Because this morning Charles is trying to understand something too.
00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:55.920
Pastor Howes is still in the bed.
00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.920
I want you to imagine a young man sitting at our table.
00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:58.719
He's trying to date.
00:00:58.880 --> 00:00:59.600
Maybe he's online.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:00.640
Maybe he's using an app.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:04.000
Maybe he's doing everything people told him to do, and he's getting almost nothing back.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:11.599
Pew Research found that among recent online daters, 64% of men said they had at least sometimes felt insecure because they weren't receiving enough messages.
00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:16.719
Don't rush past him, let him sit there, because across the table is a woman using some of those same apps.
00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:23.120
And 54% of women said they had felt overwhelmed by the number of messages they were receiving.
00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:25.599
Same environment, different pain.
00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:27.680
He's wondering why nobody sees him.
00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.799
She's wondering why everybody seems to want something from her.
00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:33.040
Now put those two people on a first date.
00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:34.319
What does he bring with him?
00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:35.760
What does she bring with her?
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.439
I'm not talking about money.
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:39.040
I'm not talking about education.
00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:42.400
I'm not talking about whether she can cook or whether he can provide.
00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:47.040
What did they bring emotionally that was already in the room before either one sat down?
00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:48.159
That's what interests me.
00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:50.480
And brothers, there's another chair I want us to look at.
00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:55.439
In 1990, 55% of men reported having at least six close friends.
00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:58.079
By 2021, that number had fallen to 27%.
00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:03.359
And the percentage of men reporting no close friends at all had risen from 3% to 15%.
00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:07.680
Now I'm not giving you that number so we can say, look how terrible things are today.
00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:10.080
I'm asking, where does that man take his pain?
00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:11.360
Where does he take rejection?
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:12.719
Where does he take embarrassment?
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:13.919
Where does he take loneliness?
00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:17.199
Where does he take the questions he doesn't want anybody to know he's asking?
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.560
Because pain doesn't disappear because nobody gave it somewhere healthy to go.
00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.919
It goes somewhere, and increasingly, somewhere may be online.
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:30.719
Now we're getting closer to the manosphere, and remember, we're not getting in the gender war, we're standing outside of it trying to understand what we're seeing.
00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.680
Recent research commissioned by Ofcom found that the manosphere isn't one single movement.
00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:43.120
It's a collection of different communities, and people can be drawn toward them through things as ordinary as humor, debate, advice, and self-improvement.
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:50.319
The same research found that socially isolated people may be especially vulnerable to harmful ideas in closed online communities.
00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:52.159
That makes me ask another question.
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.400
What if the young man wasn't looking for hate?
00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:55.840
What if he was looking for help?
00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:56.879
What if he typed?
00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:58.479
How do I become more confident?
00:02:58.639 --> 00:02:59.840
Why can't I get a girlfriend?
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.039
How do I stop being used?
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:01.919
How do I get over her?
00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:03.199
How do I become successful?
00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:04.400
How do I become a man?
00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:05.599
And
Load full transcript
somebody answered.
00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:07.039
Maybe some of the answer helped him.
00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:08.240
Maybe some of it hurt him.
00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:09.520
Maybe some of it did both.
00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:10.159
I don't know.
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:11.840
But I'd like to hear from that young man.
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:13.199
If that's you, talk to me.
00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:14.800
What did you go online looking for?
00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:15.840
And what did you find?
00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:19.520
Now let me move to the other side of the table because that woman has a story too.
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:28.000
Among women under 50 who had used online dating, Pew found that 56% said someone had sent them sexually explicit material they didn't ask for.
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:32.400
43% said someone continued contacting them after they said they weren't interested.
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:36.319
So when that woman comes to the table guarded, maybe there's something behind that too.
00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:45.199
Maybe what he experiences as rejection, she experiences as protection, and maybe what she experiences as emotional distance, he experiences as protection.
00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:50.800
Two people protecting themselves from two different kinds of pain can look like two people who don't care about each other.
00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:51.840
That one bothers me.
00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.680
Because now I'm wondering whether some of this war between men and women isn't always hatred.
00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:57.759
Maybe some of it is fear wearing armor.
00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.479
And that brings me back to what do you bring to the table?
00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:01.759
That's a fascinating question.
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:03.439
Because sometimes we mean what do you earn?
00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:04.319
What do you own?
00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:05.120
What can you provide?
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:06.159
How attractive are you?
00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:06.879
How old are you?
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:08.080
How many children do you have?
00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:08.879
Can you cook?
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:09.759
What's your education?
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:10.639
What's your status?
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:12.400
And I'm not saying those things never matter.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.439
Adults should bring responsibility into adult relationships.
00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.160
But I wonder when the table became an appraisal table.
00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.199
Because before I ask what you bring, shouldn't I ask who you are?
00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.319
And maybe an even harder question, what happened to you before you got here?
00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:26.399
Maybe you brought six figures to the table.
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:27.759
But you also brought abandonment.
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:30.720
Maybe you brought beauty to the table, but you also brought distrust.
00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:37.600
Maybe you brought a house, a career, a degree, a retirement account, but you also brought a wound nobody can see.
00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:41.759
And maybe that wound has been making decisions for you for 20 years.
00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.000
Now I'm thinking differently about the question.
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.600
Maybe the most important thing somebody brings to the table isn't what they own.
00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.879
Maybe it's what they've healed from or what they're willing to heal from.
00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:51.439
I don't know.
00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:52.079
What do you think?
00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:53.120
Put that in the comments.
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:55.120
When somebody asks, what do you bring to the table?
00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:55.839
What's your answer?
00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:57.439
And there's something else I'm wrestling with.
00:04:57.600 --> 00:04:59.360
None of these human behaviors are new.
00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:01.439
People had sex before dating apps.
00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:03.040
People cheated before Facebook.
00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:05.120
People used each other before TikTok.
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:06.240
Men hurt women.
00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:07.360
Women hurt men.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:08.720
Prostitution is ancient.
00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:09.920
Adultery is ancient.
00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:10.879
Lust is ancient.
00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:12.160
Loneliness is ancient.
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:18.240
So I'm not interested in pretending there was some perfect generation when everybody behaved themselves and relationships were wonderful.
00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:18.959
There wasn't.
00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:20.079
But something has changed.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:21.279
Maybe not the human heart.
00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:23.120
Maybe the machinery around the human heart.
00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.319
There was a time when meeting somebody required more human interaction.
00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.000
You had to talk, you had to approach somebody, you had to risk rejection face to face.
00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:31.600
You might have had to call somebody's house.
00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:32.720
You had to make plans.
00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.439
You went somewhere, you sat across from somebody, you talked.
00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:37.439
Maybe you opened the door, maybe you paid for dinner.
00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:38.160
Maybe you didn't.
00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:40.000
Everybody didn't follow the rules then either.
00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.800
But there was friction between desire and gratification.
00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:54.160
Today I can look at a photograph, swipe left, swipe right, yes, no, attractive, not attractive, and make a judgment about another human being before I've ever heard their voice.
00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.560
Technology didn't invent rejection.
00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.480
But it changed the speed of rejection.
00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:03.279
Technology didn't invent comparison, but it changed the size of the comparison pool.
00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:06.160
Technology didn't invent lust, but it changed access.
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:07.839
Technology didn't invent loneliness.
00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:09.519
And here's the tension I'm sitting with.
00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:13.360
How can we have more access to one another than any generation before us?
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:16.399
And still feel so disconnected from one another.
00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:25.839
We can know where somebody went on vacation, what they ate last night, what they're wearing, who they're dating, what they think, what they bought, and still not know them.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:33.680
We can have physical intimacy without emotional intimacy, digital connection without human connection, access, without attachment.
00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:35.279
And maybe that's part of how we got here.
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:36.000
Maybe it isn't.
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:37.040
That's why we're talking.
00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:39.279
And now I want to put two people back at our table.
00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:41.199
That young man is still sitting over there.
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.279
That young woman is still sitting across from him.
00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:44.720
He's afraid of being used.
00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:46.079
She's afraid of being hurt.
00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:47.759
He's been taught not to overinvest.
00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:49.600
She's been taught not to depend on anybody.
00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:50.720
He's protecting himself.
00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:51.920
She's protecting herself.
00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:56.800
And somehow, two people who may both want love can meet each other already prepared for war.
00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:58.720
I don't know how much of that describes you.
00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:00.319
Maybe none of it, maybe all of it.
00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:04.240
But if you heard yourself anywhere in this conversation, I want to hear from you.
00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:05.279
Leave a comment.
00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:07.839
Ask the question you think nobody is asking.
00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:08.959
Tell me where I'm wrong.
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:10.000
Tell me what I'm missing.
00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.000
Tell me what your chair at this table looks like.
00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:17.759
Because we're bringing those voices with us as this conversation continues towards September 1st.
00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:21.759
And I don't want to arrive there having already finished the conversation for you.
00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:24.959
I want us to arrive there with something on the table worth talking about.
00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:27.759
So for today, I'm not trying to answer how we fix it.
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.519
I'm still trying to understand how we got here.
00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:35.600
And I'm still sitting with the question that started this conversation how much of what we've been calling wisdom is actually woundedness?
00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:40.160
If you found this conversation meaningful, like subscribe, follow, leave a comment, or send us a message.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:41.680
We don't just want you to listen to the conversation.
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:42.959
You have a seat at this table.