Full Transcript for Unspoken Issues #175 - What If? Vol. 2 #51 - What If The Punisher Became Captain America?

--> 00:01:51.700 And the first time I read a comic, I think, where... 41 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:55.579 A whole bunch of superheroes got gruesomely murdered, and I 42 00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:56.920 loved it. It did not win. 43 00:01:56.939 --> 00:02:01.659 It was what if the superheroes had lost Atlantis Attacks, 44 00:02:01.700 --> 00:02:02.079 I believe. 45 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:05.500 Which I've never read, but I had a friend who 46 00:02:05.620 --> 00:02:09.189 described it panel by panel to me. Because it was 47 00:02:09.219 --> 00:02:10.180 pretty shocking. 48 00:02:09.819 --> 00:02:10.280 To him, too. 49 00:02:10.590 --> 00:02:14.169 Yeah, it was incredibly brutal, some of the deaths in that. 50 00:02:14.830 --> 00:02:17.969 Especially for a Marvel comic book. This is pre-image and everything. 51 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:20.719 With Atlantis Attacked, you would have expected it to be 52 00:02:20.740 --> 00:02:21.659 pretty watered down. 53 00:02:22.099 --> 00:02:23.539 Oh, gosh. 54 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:26.789 So what were your two picks, Evan? 55 00:02:27.750 --> 00:02:30.409 The one that's one of my favorite, not only my 56 00:02:30.430 --> 00:02:31.830 favorite issue of What If, but just one of my 57 00:02:31.870 --> 00:02:35.729 favorite comics ever was What If, number 34, which was 58 00:02:35.770 --> 00:02:38.069 subtitled What If No One Was Watching the Watcher? 59 00:02:38.349 --> 00:02:39.060 Oh, yeah. 60 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:41.520 It was a callback to volume one where they did 61 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:45.449 an all-comedy issue with number 34, and A lot of 62 00:02:45.469 --> 00:02:49.870 these were just single-page or half-page gags, but it did 63 00:02:49.990 --> 00:02:52.689 open with a story of what if Galactus was transformed 64 00:02:52.750 --> 00:02:55.830 into a human, and it just so happened that in 65 00:02:55.930 --> 00:02:59.319 the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos transformed him into a human who 66 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:06.520 happened to look just like Elvis Presley. Good stuff. 67 00:03:06.699 --> 00:03:09.780 Was the original What If comedy issue the inspiration for 68 00:03:09.819 --> 00:03:10.250 What The? 69 00:03:11.310 --> 00:03:12.110 That I don't know. 70 00:03:12.460 --> 00:03:14.419 Because that What If issue, I remember the What If 71 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:16.099 No One Was Watching the Watcher. I bought that when 72 00:03:16.150 --> 00:03:18.250 I was a teenager. And I remember thinking, this is 73 00:03:18.289 --> 00:03:20.349 like a What The issue. And I think What The 74 00:03:20.389 --> 00:03:23.530 was still being produced at that time. But maybe it 75 00:03:23.550 --> 00:03:24.349 had already been canceled. 76 00:03:24.389 --> 00:03:24.870 I'm not certain. 77 00:03:25.370 --> 00:03:25.849 Okay, yeah. 78 00:03:25.870 --> 00:03:28.780 My other one was What If Volume 2, Number 13, 79 00:03:28.770 --> 00:03:31.889 What If Professor X of the X-Men Had Become the Juggernaut, 80 00:03:31.949 --> 00:03:35.319 which was another one that was darker than your usual 81 00:03:35.379 --> 00:03:38.159 Marvel fare and that I had like a whole other 82 00:03:38.219 --> 00:03:40.259 story to tell about it. But you're not getting that 83 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:40.620 for free. 84 00:03:40.659 --> 00:03:44.770 Well... It also had a cool Jim Lee cover. 85 00:03:45.069 --> 00:03:48.289 Oh, yeah, it did. That's right. Yeah, but what ends 86 00:03:48.370 --> 00:03:51.849 up taking the cake? What ends up taking the prize? 87 00:03:52.490 --> 00:03:57.430 What ends up taking the prize is what if issue 51, 88 00:03:57.430 --> 00:04:01.330 volume 2, 51 here, issue 51. What if the Punisher 89 00:04:01.389 --> 00:04:05.050 became Captain America? Yeah, I was scrambling to kind of 90 00:04:05.090 --> 00:04:09.689 come up with one because I really, really love what ifs. 91 00:04:10.169 --> 00:04:13.550 And Elseworlds as well. I love reading the alternate takes, 92 00:04:13.629 --> 00:04:16.589 the alternate realities that happen in the Marvel Universe and 93 00:04:16.629 --> 00:04:20.009 people trying to write a story around them. And this 94 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:22.680 one really stands out because of the cover for me. 95 00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:26.259 And this is just happening right after, I think, what 96 00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:30.279 if the Hulk had killed Wolverine? which was another fantastic cover. 97 00:04:30.339 --> 00:04:32.139 I think we might have even had, I don't know 98 00:04:32.170 --> 00:04:34.170 if we listed that as a gimmick in our gimmick 99 00:04:34.209 --> 00:04:34.769 poll or not. 100 00:04:34.930 --> 00:04:37.529 I would have described it more as incredible or at 101 00:04:37.550 --> 00:04:38.370 least uncanny. 102 00:04:39.389 --> 00:04:42.470 Anyway, so you've got to follow up that cover with 103 00:04:42.870 --> 00:04:46.810 another great what-if cover. There are some standout what-if covers, 104 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:49.819 and this one is great, where it's the Punisher skull. 105 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:53.209 that you usually see on his chest, but instead it's 106 00:04:53.250 --> 00:04:57.750 got a Captain America mask over it. And I've used 107 00:04:57.769 --> 00:05:01.000 that as a profile picture sometimes, just because of the 108 00:05:01.019 --> 00:05:02.800 way it looks. I love it. Now, as for the 109 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:06.680 story that we get inside, for a one-shot issue, I 110 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.660 think there is going to be some discussion I think 111 00:05:09.699 --> 00:05:13.879 we could have here. What if the Punisher becomes Captain America? 112 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:19.160 All right, we see the cover. You probably got questions 113 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:21.410 if you haven't opened up the issue. You're like, how 114 00:05:21.449 --> 00:05:25.560 does Frank Castle become Captain America? Frank Castle, of all people... 115 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.680 But what I think the issue dives into a little

more. 116 00:05:28.699 --> 00:05:30.759 They saw him working out and they're. 117 00:05:30.620 --> 00:05:34.629 Like, whoa, that guy's got it. He could do it. 118 00:05:35.100 --> 00:05:41.560 What kind of Captain America would Frank Castle actually be? So, Chris, 119 00:05:41.610 --> 00:05:44.230 I'll go to you first. Hey, what if the Punisher 120 00:05:44.250 --> 00:05:47.189 became Captain America? Is that immediately something that you want 121 00:05:47.250 --> 00:05:49.670 to read about? Is that something that you're like, OK, 122 00:05:49.689 --> 00:05:51.699 I want to check this out? Or does it sound 123 00:05:51.750 --> 00:05:54.529 like a gimmick? Do you just like, okay, where's What 124 00:05:54.569 --> 00:05:57.230 If going now? Have they gone this far? Just on 125 00:05:57.250 --> 00:06:00.350 the premise alone, are you excited to at least check 126 00:06:00.389 --> 00:06:00.629 it out? 127 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:01.930 Probably. 128 00:06:02.370 --> 00:06:04.730 This came out when I was still reading comics before 129 00:06:04.769 --> 00:06:07.290 my little hiatus there in the mid-90s, but I pretty 130 00:06:07.310 --> 00:06:09.519 much stopped getting What If issues by this time, I 131 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:11.560 think because the convenience store that I bought most of 132 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:14.459 my comics from was not carrying it anymore. I became 133 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.300 aware of this issue later, and the concept alone is 134 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:22.100 kind of interesting. It's almost like Hal would that ever happened. 135 00:06:22.149 --> 00:06:22.360 Right. 136 00:06:22.769 --> 00:06:26.720 Right. Because the Punisher is so far, he's basically pretty 137 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:29.560 close to the opposite of what Steve Rogers as Captain 138 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:30.360 America is. 139 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:32.360 So it's kind of intriguing on its. 140 00:06:32.300 --> 00:06:35.430 Face, I think. Oh, for sure. It's interesting because yeah, 141 00:06:35.550 --> 00:06:37.170 it does seem wrong, but at the same time, look, 142 00:06:37.209 --> 00:06:39.769 they do have some stuff in common. They're soldiers and 143 00:06:40.850 --> 00:06:43.970 heaven help us. Some people think that America ought to 144 00:06:44.009 --> 00:06:48.790 be more like the Punisher, let alone Captain America. So yeah, Interestingly, 145 00:06:48.870 --> 00:06:50.589 this is one of those I keep wanting to do, 146 00:06:50.649 --> 00:06:52.089 and maybe I should do that when I say I 147 00:06:52.110 --> 00:06:54.110 don't really know what to do next on my blog 148 00:06:54.129 --> 00:06:57.370 or podcast or whatever, about what-ifs that came true. 149 00:06:58.069 --> 00:06:58.170 Oh. 150 00:06:58.470 --> 00:07:02.920 And this one almost joined the list. When, before Bucky 151 00:07:03.389 --> 00:07:07.240 got the shield, there was rumor and speculation that Frank 152 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:10.199 Castle might take over, and there's even an issue or 153 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:13.500 two where he has a Cap-like costume that's actually one 154 00:07:13.540 --> 00:07:16.579 of the alternates on one of the Marvel vs. Capcom games. 155 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.120 Oh, wow. Okay. 156 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:23.269 I think for Captain America. So this one almost became like, 157 00:07:23.550 --> 00:07:25.930 what if Spider-Man joined the Fantastic Four? Well, he did. 158 00:07:26.550 --> 00:07:28.829 Or what if the Avengers fought crime in the 50s 159 00:07:28.850 --> 00:07:31.920 that actually became a canon story after a while with 160 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:33.000 the Agents of Atlas? 161 00:07:33.339 --> 00:07:34.279 Mm-hmm. 162 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:37.480 And so what if Jane Foster became Thor, for crying 163 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:40.689 out loud? So this one was almost on that list. 164 00:07:40.699 --> 00:07:44.980 But yeah, it definitely... gives you the opportunity to play 165 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.040 with some themes and realize these characters are a little 166 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:49.879 more similar than maybe you want to admit. 167 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:52.540 The Watcher introduces us to the point where the reality 168 00:07:52.579 --> 00:07:55.009 branches off from the Marvel Universe that we know. Steve 169 00:07:55.069 --> 00:07:58.750 Rogers is battling the Red Skull, and unlike the normal timeline, 170 00:07:58.810 --> 00:08:02.990 Steve doesn't escape without serious injury. He survives, but he's 171 00:08:03.029 --> 00:08:05.889 badly wounded enough that the government starts thinking about something 172 00:08:05.910 --> 00:08:10.579 that would have seemed almost unthinkable before. They need another 173 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:14.920 Captain America. So there's this government committee that Nick Fury 174 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:18.319 and I think it's Henry Gyrich is involved in. And 175 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:21.199 they basically make the argument that Captain America has become 176 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:24.540 too important or it has become too important as a 177 00:08:24.620 --> 00:08:29.670 symbol to just simply disappear. Captain America. Yeah. Captain America 178 00:08:29.709 --> 00:08:32.250 is a deterrent. He represents law and order and they 179 00:08:32.289 --> 00:08:36.610 need somebody else wearing that uniform. And their first choice 180 00:08:37.070 --> 00:08:39.740 is Frank Castle. At this point, Frank is still a 181 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:44.039 career soldier. He served multiple tours in Vietnam. He's heavily 182 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:47.899 decorated and he's currently training Marines. And when they come 183 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:51.120 to him and ask him to do this, Frank says no. 184 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:55.080 It's not that he's afraid of the responsibility. His reason 185 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:57.909 at that time is basically, I've done enough. I've done 186 00:08:57.970 --> 00:09:00.129 enough for my country. He's got

a wife. He's got 187 00:09:00.169 --> 00:09:03.389 two kids. He's barely seen them because of his military service. 188 00:09:03.769 --> 00:09:06.190 And he feels like the war that he has fought 189 00:09:06.269 --> 00:09:06.710 is over. 190 00:09:07.690 --> 00:09:11.590 And he's kind of disillusioned because of Vietnam and how 191 00:09:11.610 --> 00:09:12.000 it played out. 192 00:09:12.210 --> 00:09:15.129 Oh, yeah. And that's a big thing here. That actually 193 00:09:15.169 --> 00:09:17.529 leads in right into my next note. Frank's relationship with 194 00:09:17.590 --> 00:09:22.559 America here is clearly different. Nick Fury even says that 195 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.659 Vietnam created a different kind of soldier than World War 196 00:09:26.740 --> 00:09:30.360 II did. So as far as soldiers go, yes, both 197 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.480 Steve and Frank are soldiers. But the wars that they 198 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:38.450 both fought in and fought for America in Vietnam resulted 199 00:09:38.509 --> 00:09:42.250 in two different viewpoints. Frank, he understands the idea and 200 00:09:42.269 --> 00:09:45.740 the ideal of America, but he's very disillusioned with what 201 00:09:45.860 --> 00:09:49.419 the reality is. And I kind of asked, does it 202 00:09:49.539 --> 00:09:51.879 make sense for Frank to refuse at this point? Chris, 203 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:54.549 it sounds like you kind of understand that that's why 204 00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:56.460 he's doing it, right? makes sense for him right. 205 00:09:57.139 --> 00:10:00.720 Yeah plus he still has a family like right in 206 00:10:00.779 --> 00:10:03.600 addition to all the other stuff we mentioned like this 207 00:10:03.659 --> 00:10:06.580 is before his family has been gunned down or whatever 208 00:10:06.620 --> 00:10:10.669 so like that's a big commitment to somebody that's got 209 00:10:10.710 --> 00:10:13.029 a wife of two kids right and see why he would. 210 00:10:12.929 --> 00:10:17.230 Kind of Yeah. So Frank turns these guys down and 211 00:10:17.309 --> 00:10:20.129 the government decides to start looking elsewhere. And this is 212 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:22.169 one of those things where what if kind of shines 213 00:10:22.350 --> 00:10:25.730 because they basically do a one page where we get 214 00:10:25.769 --> 00:10:30.259 these entire series of alternate Captain America's. John Jameson takes 215 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:32.820 up the shield, but he eventually becomes Man Wolf. We 216 00:10:32.860 --> 00:10:34.000 all sort of know about that. 217 00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:37.820 That's proving that Cap Wolf is a multiversal constant. That's right. 218 00:10:38.149 --> 00:10:41.409 Then there's Robert Diamond. Robert Diamond, he gets a shot 219 00:10:41.460 --> 00:10:42.509 at holding the shield. 220 00:10:42.580 --> 00:10:43.649 He is Oliver Queen. 221 00:10:44.049 --> 00:10:44.909 It looks just like him. 222 00:10:45.100 --> 00:10:47.159 I don't know who this guy is. I've never heard 223 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:47.490 of this guy. 224 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:50.779 Sons of the Tiger. I've heard of that. It's part 225 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:53.379 of the White Tiger mythology. I've heard of him. I 226 00:10:53.419 --> 00:10:55.789 don't know that I've ever read anything with him in it. 227 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:59.629 I pulled him up on Fandom. And I think his 228 00:10:59.690 --> 00:11:02.769 first appearance was Hands of Kung Fu or something like 229 00:11:02.789 --> 00:11:05.700 that or or something along those lines. So I feel 230 00:11:05.740 --> 00:11:10.659 like he's he's related to probably the oh, my goodness. 231 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:14.320 I can't remember who the guy was like Shang-Chi. I 232 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.460 feel like maybe he's related somewhere in that area. He's 233 00:11:17.779 --> 00:11:20.440 he's over in that area. But he ends up. I'll 234 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:20.620 go ahead. 235 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:22.840 So I was going to say Simon Furman, the writer, 236 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:25.519 who I only really know as he did Transformers for 237 00:11:25.539 --> 00:11:26.179 a long time, right? 238 00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:30.360 Yeah, I completely dove straight off, and I wrote something 239 00:11:30.460 --> 00:11:32.940 out of where he was coming from. Our creative team here, 240 00:11:33.539 --> 00:11:38.590 Simon Furman writing, penciled by Paris Collins, inked by Frank Turner, 241 00:11:38.669 --> 00:11:42.509 lettered by Janice Shang, and colored by Carlos Lopez, and 242 00:11:42.990 --> 00:11:46.309 this hit the shelves June 1st of 1993. To give 243 00:11:46.330 --> 00:11:49.779 you an idea of where Simon Furman's coming from here, Furman... 244 00:11:50.590 --> 00:11:53.789 began his historic run with Transformers number 13 on March 245 00:11:53.970 --> 00:11:57.559 9th of 1985. And this is Transformers UK, by the way, 246 00:11:58.059 --> 00:12:00.500 writing the story, the enemy within over the next several years, 247 00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:01.860 he wrote iconic UK stories. 248 00:12:01.899 --> 00:12:03.840 They transformed on the opposite side of the road. 249 00:12:05.179 --> 00:12:05.620 They did. 250 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:10.909 As a matter of fact, um, uh, Let's see, wrote 251 00:12:10.990 --> 00:12:14.870 iconic stories such as Decepticon, Dambusters, The Wrath of Grimlock 252 00:12:14.889 --> 00:12:18.190 and the multi-part Dinobot Hunt. He wrote Doctor Who from 253 00:12:18.190 --> 00:12:21.590 86 to 88. He contributed several stories to Doctor Who magazine. 254 00:12:22.230 --> 00:12:25.000 He was also doing Action Force, which if I say 255 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.159 Action Force, you guys know what that is over across 256 00:12:27.179 --> 00:12:27.539 the pond. 257 00:12:28.340 --> 00:12:29.320 Atari Force, maybe? 258 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:30.379 No, it'd be G.I. 259 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:30.659 Joe. 260 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:33.490 They didn't call G.I.

Joe over there. They called it 261 00:12:33.620 --> 00:12:36.549 Action Force. He wrote numerous G.I. So as you can see, 262 00:12:36.610 --> 00:12:38.570 you can kind of see where this guy's writing is 263 00:12:38.610 --> 00:12:40.509 going to because, yes, he is going to end up 264 00:12:40.570 --> 00:12:44.399 on Transformers. Well, he's already writing Transformers for the UK, 265 00:12:44.419 --> 00:12:46.179 but he ends up doing it over here in the U.S. 266 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:46.559 As well. 267 00:12:47.220 --> 00:12:50.399 Let's see, what else? He does Thundercats No. 1 over 268 00:12:50.419 --> 00:12:53.730 in the UK. During the late 80s, he writes a 269 00:12:53.750 --> 00:12:56.129 title called Dragon's Claws, which is a 10-issue run. It 270 00:12:56.470 --> 00:12:59.649 goes from 88 to 89. He also does Death's Head. 271 00:12:59.669 --> 00:13:03.549 He introduced Death's Head in Dragon's Claws No. 5 in 88, 272 00:13:03.549 --> 00:13:06.320 quickly led to the solo Death's Head series, which won 273 00:13:06.340 --> 00:13:10.679 through 10 in November of 88. Furman transitions into writing 274 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.299 directly for Marvel's U.S. monthly series. He does Transformers in 275 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:17.070 May of 89. He takes over writing the main U.S. 276 00:13:17.090 --> 00:13:19.429 series with issue 56 and pins it all the way 277 00:13:19.610 --> 00:13:23.789 up until its final issue in number 80 in May 278 00:13:24.009 --> 00:13:26.690 of 1991. If you picked up any RoboCop series, you 279 00:13:26.710 --> 00:13:29.860 probably see his name there also as well. Evan, you 280 00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:33.399 might recognize his name. Simon Furman wrote issues 24 through 281 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.759 27 of Sensational She-Hulk. And he also did the entire 282 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.909 four-issue run of Marvel's Brute Force in 1990. 283 00:13:41.909 --> 00:13:42.409 Great name. 284 00:13:43.090 --> 00:13:43.970 Brute Force. 285 00:13:44.549 --> 00:13:46.429 So there you go. That's kind of a look at 286 00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:51.129 his early life here from up until 93, I should say, 287 00:13:51.529 --> 00:13:54.840 because he's doing a lot of licensed work. He's definitely 288 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:59.220 associated with toys and licensed properties. Captain Planet and the Planeteers, 289 00:13:59.539 --> 00:14:03.240 Toxic Crusaders. So a lot of those things you've seen 290 00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:06.019 on TV, ladies and gentlemen, you can see him, Simon Furman, 291 00:14:06.059 --> 00:14:08.899 writing some stuff about him. So that whole tangent, because 292 00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:12.539 I forgot to talk about the creative team there, you asked, 293 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.750 was Simon Furman writing this? Yes, he is. Was there 294 00:14:15.779 --> 00:14:17.389 something else you wanted to add to that before I 295 00:14:17.409 --> 00:14:18.490 completely derailed things? 296 00:14:19.330 --> 00:14:21.350

Well, yeah, I was just going to say that this really, 297 00:14:22.370 --> 00:14:24.250 it almost seems more like it would have fit in 298 00:14:24.289 --> 00:14:26.990 better in the 80s. What if, because all of this 299 00:14:27.070 --> 00:14:30.610 is pulling from 70s, Not just the Punisher and his 300 00:14:30.690 --> 00:14:33.669 origin in Vietnam and all that, but also this Captain 301 00:14:33.710 --> 00:14:38.649 America 212 is the issue he was hurt in and 302 00:14:38.710 --> 00:14:42.950 sidelined in this. They reference in the Uatu references in 303 00:14:43.129 --> 00:14:47.370 his accident or whatever. That came in Cap 212 from 1977, 304 00:14:47.370 --> 00:14:49.690 which is part of Kirby's Captain America run then. 305 00:14:49.710 --> 00:14:52.250 And then a lot of this stuff, Man-Wolf. 306 00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:55.600 Yeah. The Deadly Hands of Kung Fu guy. Doc Samson 307 00:14:55.629 --> 00:14:58.299 was probably... I know he goes back a ways. I'm 308 00:14:58.370 --> 00:14:59.929 assuming he was a bigger deal in the 70s and 309 00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:02.470 80s than he is in the 90s. And then the 310 00:15:02.490 --> 00:15:04.690 Baron Blood story, I think that was an 80s story. 311 00:15:05.389 --> 00:15:07.690 I haven't read a whole series on Doc Samson as 312 00:15:07.730 --> 00:15:08.789 Captain America. 313 00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:09.389 It's funny. 314 00:15:09.450 --> 00:15:12.309 And not because it's such an obviously brilliant idea. 315 00:15:13.730 --> 00:15:15.669 That was actually going to lead into my next question. 316 00:15:16.009 --> 00:15:18.129 We get four kind of like mini stories here of 317 00:15:18.649 --> 00:15:22.149 these guys. So Evan's vote is for a Doc Samson 318 00:15:22.429 --> 00:15:25.330 what if. You care about any of these guys here, Chris, 319 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:26.669 that you'd want to read a whole issue on? 320 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:29.259 Mostly I would want to see the Man-Wolf. 321 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.399 Yeah, I think that's where I'd end up too. Kyle 322 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.740 Richmond Nighthawk is the one that falls to barren blood. 323 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:40.779 Robert Diamond gets killed by Count Nefaria, apparently. Doc Samson 324 00:15:40.870 --> 00:15:43.870 loses control during some kind of fight and a bunch 325 00:15:43.909 --> 00:15:46.350 of civilians die. I'm not a big Doc Samson fan, 326 00:15:46.370 --> 00:15:48.370 so Evan, does that sound like something that happened in 327 00:15:48.429 --> 00:15:50.870 his life at some point or in his continuity? 328 00:15:51.649 --> 00:15:53.970 Most of what I've read with him, he's just the 329 00:15:54.070 --> 00:15:58.230 de facto Marvel Universe psychiatrist. But yeah, he had a 330 00:15:58.269 --> 00:16:00.490 tendency to be a bit of a jerk for a while. 331 00:16:00.710 --> 00:16:01.350 Yeah. 332 00:16:01.529 --> 00:16:05.179 Yeah, I can see that. I often, a familiar refrain 333 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.779 for

me on these and other shows is, man, today 334 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.379 it would have been a six-issue limited series with five 335 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.460 spin-off tie-ins and stuff. Like this one, I'm actually curious 336 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:16.250 what those would have been like. Like this one, I 337 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.929 feel like could have been a lot more than one issue. 338 00:16:18.970 --> 00:16:19.529 Yeah, yeah. 339 00:16:19.690 --> 00:16:22.629 Man-Wolf would be great just to see J. Jonah Jameson 340 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:25.200 talking about his son being Captain America. 341 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.500 Oh, my gosh. Could you imagine? Anytime he had a 342 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:31.179 chance to brag about him being an astronaut. 343 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:33.110 He wasn't wearing a mask, Jonah. 344 00:16:35.990 --> 00:16:36.529 Oh, man. 345 00:16:37.269 --> 00:16:40.110 The real question is, why didn't John Walker get a call? 346 00:16:40.990 --> 00:16:42.289 Why didn't he? Why didn't he? 347 00:16:42.850 --> 00:16:45.330 Maybe this was earlier than the. 348 00:16:45.570 --> 00:16:49.240 I think that's clearly what they're trying to do. I 349 00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:55.419 think they're trying to place this specifically... before Frank's family 350 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.720 gets killed, because that, I think, aligns with the timeline, 351 00:16:59.860 --> 00:17:02.879 I believe, what's happening in the 616 at this point, 352 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.309 because even though the government's going through these guys for 353 00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:09.630 Captain America, they don't come back to him, come back 354 00:17:09.670 --> 00:17:11.910 to Frank and say, hey, we need you. Frank's family 355 00:17:11.950 --> 00:17:14.089 gets killed in Central Park, right? They get killed in 356 00:17:14.109 --> 00:17:19.069 Central Park, just like in the regular timeline. His family's murdered, 357 00:17:19.410 --> 00:17:23.329 Frank survives, And now, I think he goes back and 358 00:17:23.349 --> 00:17:27.710 he's like, okay, I'm willing to accept becoming Captain America. 359 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:30.380 That's really the only issue I have with. 360 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.339 You have to have him do that to make this 361 00:17:32.380 --> 00:17:32.900 story work. 362 00:17:33.259 --> 00:17:35.859 Yeah. But also, Frank would never do that. 363 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.099 Maybe because he had it as an option. 364 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.740 Sure. Yeah, well, and you're right. There's the possibility of like, okay, 365 00:17:43.779 --> 00:17:47.640 this guy is so upset. He's so overcome by grief 366 00:17:47.769 --> 00:17:52.269 and the opportunity to have vengeance. Well... If the government's 367 00:17:52.390 --> 00:17:54.440 offer is still on the table and I can put 368 00:17:54.500 --> 00:17:57.079 on a suit along with like a hardened steel shield, 369 00:17:57.140 --> 00:18:00.700 by the way, not an Advantium

one, hardened steel, maybe 370 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.200 I can use this. And as we find out, I 371 00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:05.240 think that's what he does. I don't know if he's 372 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.410 using the government resources to help him along his path 373 00:18:09.450 --> 00:18:12.309 for vengeance here, but. I think Evan has a strong 374 00:18:12.349 --> 00:18:14.369 point there. Like, okay, this was the option that was 375 00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:16.509 at his feet and maybe it can help him get 376 00:18:16.670 --> 00:18:19.730 his vengeance, I guess, better or easier. That's the only 377 00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:21.789 thing I could say. We will have more, or I 378 00:18:21.809 --> 00:18:25.339 will have another part where I bring up this whole, okay, 379 00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:28.400 this isn't Frank. This doesn't feel like the Frank I know. 380 00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:33.900 But anyway, okay. So yeah, Frank, he's, his family's murdered. 381 00:18:33.980 --> 00:18:36.220 He has the opportunity to place his anger in a 382 00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:40.250 war that is kind of backed by the government here. Clearly, 383 00:18:41.190 --> 00:18:43.279 He needs a place to put all of that. And 384 00:18:43.339 --> 00:18:47.299 the government essentially hands Captain America's shield, well, not really, 385 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:52.160 but the costume over. Now, when we first opened the issue, 386 00:18:52.220 --> 00:18:56.160 Frank Castle is Captain America. He's fighting alongside the Avengers, 387 00:18:56.420 --> 00:19:00.079 Iron Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Beast, Falcon. Evan Bevins, you 388 00:19:00.099 --> 00:19:03.349 got any thoughts on the Beast or Falcon, this iteration 389 00:19:03.369 --> 00:19:03.930 of the Avengers? 390 00:19:04.950 --> 00:19:07.710 No, I have not read a bunch. I'm assuming this 391 00:19:07.809 --> 00:19:10.589 is from a particular... point in their history, but I 392 00:19:10.609 --> 00:19:12.230 have not read a bunch from that. I've read a 393 00:19:12.250 --> 00:19:14.849 lot of early Avengers and a lot of more recent Avengers. 394 00:19:14.869 --> 00:19:15.490 Okay, alright. 395 00:19:15.769 --> 00:19:20.200 With the exception of maybe the Falcon. I could see 396 00:19:20.500 --> 00:19:25.039 Frank and the Falcon crossing in the 616, but that's 397 00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:26.819 another thing where I'm like, I could use more of 398 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:31.079 this as Frank Castle interacting with the classic Avengers. 399 00:19:31.180 --> 00:19:31.380 Yeah. 400 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:34.769 Of course, at one point, Wanda says he makes her uncomfortable. 401 00:19:34.849 --> 00:19:36.849 He frightens me, and I'm like, well, this was before 402 00:19:36.930 --> 00:19:38.190 everybody was scared to death of you. 403 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:39.799 Right. 404 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:40.700 Right. All right. 405 00:19:40.700 --> 00:19:44.140 So he's fighting alongside the Avengers here. Right away, when 406 00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:47.039 you're opening this issue, you can tell it's not Steve 407 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.720 Rogers because he's he's yelling, hit him hard. I want heads. 408 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.299 And Iron Man's basically got to do like he's got 409 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:54.240 to try and make everybody understand. No, he actually just 410 00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:56.619 means round them up, guys. Don't go. Don't literally like 411 00:19:56.660 --> 00:19:58.880 bring them their heads. It would have. 412 00:19:58.700 --> 00:20:00.460 Been great if there had been a panel of the 413 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:03.740 Wasp holding a bloody corpse in pieces like, oh, my bad. 414 00:20:03.769 --> 00:20:05.950 Yeah. Yeah. 415 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:08.980 That's the guy who doesn't want more violence in his story. 416 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:09.240 Yeah. 417 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:13.220 Frank gets Hammerhead alone at the beginning few pages. And Hammerhead, like, 418 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:16.309 this is the classic Spider-Man villain, in my opinion. I 419 00:20:16.309 --> 00:20:17.950 don't know if he's somebody else's villain, but I feel 420 00:20:17.970 --> 00:20:21.269 like I know him more from Spider-Man than anything else. Hammerhead, 421 00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:26.650 this flat-headed gangster type, opens up fire with his Tommy gun. 422 00:20:27.250 --> 00:20:29.210 Frank gets the advantage on him, takes him down, and 423 00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:32.390 starts beating the absolute hell out of him. And while 424 00:20:32.430 --> 00:20:36.289 he's doing this, he's yelling punished, punished, punished, like beating 425 00:20:36.329 --> 00:20:37.910 the crap out of this guy. So that's where you 426 00:20:38.029 --> 00:20:42.019 obviously realize, OK, this is not the uniform may have changed. 427 00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:45.539 But Frank Castle certainly doesn't feel like he's changed at all. 428 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:48.599 The Avengers, just like Evan said, they know they kind 429 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:50.880 of get the sense that something's wrong here. Scarlet Witch 430 00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:55.150 clearly voices her opinion here. Frank hasn't technically crossed any 431 00:20:55.190 --> 00:20:58.369 lines that would justify removing him. But underneath, yeah, he's 432 00:20:58.450 --> 00:21:01.880 a pretty scary dude. So obviously nobody in this story 433 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.279 is oblivious that Frank is definitely over the top here. 434 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.019 They know who he is. They know what he's gone through. 435 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:10.619 And they also know and they can see the rage 436 00:21:10.660 --> 00:21:14.650 that's kind of sitting underneath this costume. And then Frank 437 00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:17.230 goes back to his room and he puts another set 438 00:21:17.269 --> 00:21:22.769 of clothes on. And he becomes the Punisher. So we've 439 00:21:22.789 --> 00:21:26.630 got Frank Castle serving publicly

as Captain America while secretly 440 00:21:26.670 --> 00:21:29.690 going out at night and conducting the exact same personal 441 00:21:29.730 --> 00:21:34.170 war he conducts in the normal Marvel Universe. And my 442 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:36.049 reaction when I first saw this was like, well, of 443 00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:38.569 course he does. This is Frank Castle here. It doesn't 444 00:21:38.609 --> 00:21:41.289 matter if he's wearing the costume or not, which he 445 00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:43.789 puts on at night. He'll put the costume on and 446 00:21:43.809 --> 00:21:46.150 he goes out at night because the death of his 447 00:21:46.210 --> 00:21:50.140 family creates the Punisher. putting him in Captain America's uniform 448 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:52.230 is not going to remove that at all. And I 449 00:21:52.250 --> 00:21:54.630 think that's a pretty smart play on Furman here. He 450 00:21:54.670 --> 00:21:57.369 understands that this isn't like Frank Castle that has immediately 451 00:21:57.450 --> 00:21:59.009 changed just because of what he's wearing. 452 00:22:00.170 --> 00:22:04.650 Yeah, that's my favorite thing about this issue is Frank 453 00:22:05.329 --> 00:22:10.359 treating Captain America like an altered ego and like he's 454 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:14.259 two vigilantes in one basically. I thought that was a 455 00:22:14.259 --> 00:22:17.579 cool twist and I do kind of I feel like 456 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:19.579 it would make more sense, like you said, if he 457 00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:21.740 showed him maybe using some. 458 00:22:21.619 --> 00:22:23.609 Of those resources. Oh, yeah. 459 00:22:24.049 --> 00:22:27.970 Maybe like saying that he's doing this scavenger thing mostly to. 460 00:22:27.910 --> 00:22:29.450 Help his war on crime. 461 00:22:29.609 --> 00:22:29.910 Right. 462 00:22:30.069 --> 00:22:31.009 Punisher-style war. 463 00:22:31.430 --> 00:22:33.730 We might have gotten a little glimpse of that with 464 00:22:34.029 --> 00:22:35.930 the opening scene, because I'm sure it's happened, but I 465 00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:38.569 don't remember the Avengers taking on Hammerhead too often. 466 00:22:38.630 --> 00:22:40.599 Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, right. 467 00:22:40.630 --> 00:22:42.319 Yeah, we kind of have to infer that. We don't 468 00:22:42.460 --> 00:22:45.599 get that explicitly stated, but I took that as a way... 469 00:22:46.269 --> 00:22:49.500 of showing that he's already taking the Avengers in a 470 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:50.019 different direction. 471 00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:53.240 He's steering them one way. So he's using Captain America 472 00:22:53.259 --> 00:22:56.279 to fight one war. He's using his Punisher identity to 473 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:59.480 fight another. And he starts hunting the men responsible for 474 00:22:59.539 --> 00:23:01.880 his family's death. He tracks down a guy by the 475 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:05.460 name of Skinner, who was present when Frank's family was killed. 476

00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:09.240 He tears through these guys, puts a knife in Skinner's back. 477 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.460 And there's this wonderfully nasty little moment where Frank actually 478 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.980 puts his boot on the back of the knife and 479 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:16.920 kind of pushes it in deeper. But he's not killing 480 00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:21.359 this guy because the Punisher wants Skinner to deliver a message. 481 00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:25.400 Tell them I'm coming. And then he leaves the scene. 482 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:29.670 So I'm all, okay, this is the Frank Castle I know. 483 00:23:29.710 --> 00:23:32.069 This is the Punisher that I know. I think that 484 00:23:32.150 --> 00:23:36.450 the Punisher identity coming back was inevitable, in my opinion. 485 00:23:36.609 --> 00:23:38.589 The thing is, with what-ifs, they can go any direction 486 00:23:38.609 --> 00:23:40.950 they want to. And sometimes they go off of things. 487 00:23:41.130 --> 00:23:43.750 They will go way out. This felt like, okay, this 488 00:23:43.789 --> 00:23:46.609 is a guy who's suffered the same losses, the one 489 00:23:46.630 --> 00:23:50.069 that we know in our universe. And he's dealing with 490 00:23:50.130 --> 00:23:52.109 it the same way, but he's also got this Captain 491 00:23:52.130 --> 00:23:53.490 America identity that he's got to. 492 00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:54.470 Kind of keep up. 493 00:23:54.710 --> 00:23:56.450 And that kind of brings up the question, like, can 494 00:23:56.490 --> 00:23:59.819 Frank remain both men at the same time? And I 495 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:01.700 feel like the answer is pretty clearly no. 496 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.160 I will say, I did think it was funny and 497 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:09.180 reminds me of some stuff I've been seeing online with 498 00:24:09.349 --> 00:24:13.069 people have been talking about how Back in the day, 499 00:24:13.130 --> 00:24:15.829 the Avengers weren't the big deal they are now in 500 00:24:15.869 --> 00:24:16.710 terms of the movies. 501 00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:17.210 Oh, yeah. 502 00:24:17.230 --> 00:24:19.750 Like, they were always a prestige team, but in terms 503 00:24:19.789 --> 00:24:23.009 of popularity and things, they didn't hold a candle to 504 00:24:23.049 --> 00:24:25.670 Spider-Man and the X-Men, like, compared to now. 505 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:26.140 Right. 506 00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:28.980 But I saw that the Watcher described them as combating 507 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.880 menaces few single superheroes could withstand, whereas now it's like 508 00:24:33.259 --> 00:24:36.119 the intro is always, the threat's no... hero could stand 509 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:40.480 alone against. And it's like, you know, like Hammerhead. That's, 510 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.440 that's pretty tough. I don't think that was intentional or anything, 511 00:24:43.460 --> 00:24:45.200 but it just kind of made me laugh. It's like, yeah, 512 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.279 the Avengers weren't quite as big a deal in the 513 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:49.319 nineties as they are now. 514 00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:50.420 Yeah. 515 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:54.569 So eventually Falcon confronts Frank about what he's doing. There's 516 00:24:54.609 --> 00:24:56.710 rumors that Captain America and the Punisher are the same 517 00:24:56.789 --> 00:25:00.349 person and the government's getting a little nervous. People are 518 00:25:00.390 --> 00:25:03.730 talking about removing Frank, but Falcon isn't really there just 519 00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:06.940 to threaten him. He tries to explain what the uniform means. 520 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:09.839 Steve Rogers understood what the red, white, and blue stood for. 521 00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:13.259 But Frank fires back. He basically says, don't tell me 522 00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.660 I'm the one dragging the flag through the mud. What 523 00:25:16.700 --> 00:25:18.730 about the politicians who sent young men to die in 524 00:25:18.750 --> 00:25:21.509 a pointless war? What about the people who sit back 525 00:25:21.549 --> 00:25:25.329 while cities rot from crime and corruption? Frank says he 526 00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:29.690 used to believe. Now he believes in himself. And man, 527 00:25:30.029 --> 00:25:33.450 what an exchange, because Frank's argument really, in my opinion, 528 00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:36.410 isn't stupid. I don't think it's a horrible take. I 529 00:25:36.450 --> 00:25:38.589 think it's a pretty good take here. He understands what 530 00:25:38.630 --> 00:25:42.680 America is supposed to represent, but he just doesn't believe 531 00:25:42.740 --> 00:25:46.339 America has lived up to it. So Frank eventually walks 532 00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:49.599 away from that conversation with the conclusion, Captain America has 533 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:53.720 too many limitations. So from now on, he's just going 534 00:25:53.740 --> 00:25:57.380 to be the Punisher. Now, Frank's war, he's been trying 535 00:25:57.420 --> 00:26:00.289 to find a guy by the name of Bruno Costa. 536 00:26:00.490 --> 00:26:03.630 And we get to a point where Frank has tracked 537 00:26:03.670 --> 00:26:07.130 them down. He tracks the Costa brothers down because there's 538 00:26:07.150 --> 00:26:08.930 a couple of them and they're in Florida and he 539 00:26:08.970 --> 00:26:12.410 goes after them, specifically Bruno, as Bruno is apparently one 540 00:26:12.430 --> 00:26:14.339 of the ones that pulled the trigger that fateful day 541 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:18.220 that his family died. So he's in full Punisher mode now, 542 00:26:18.700 --> 00:26:22.230 like full on attack mode. He's heading into this facility 543 00:26:22.269 --> 00:26:25.569 with his guns blazing. There's no interest in subtlety. Now 544 00:26:25.589 --> 00:26:28.069 he's going to take these guys out. And then suddenly 545 00:26:28.130 --> 00:26:30.569 a shield comes flying through the room and cuts Frank's 546

00:26:30.869 --> 00:26:34.490 weapons apart. Somebody kicks Frank in the face. It's a 547 00:26:34.490 --> 00:26:37.720 red boot karate chop to the back of the head. 548 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:40.000 And Frank is on the ground and Frank looks up 549 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.680 and there's captain America. Now I want to go ahead 550 00:26:43.700 --> 00:26:45.460 and pause here real quick. Just get your guys's take. 551 00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:48.299 But when I got to this point, before we got 552 00:26:48.339 --> 00:26:51.839 the full frontal reveal, uh, I did not immediately think 553 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:54.349 that this was going to be Steve Rogers. I thought 554 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.380 for a second that it was going to be Falcon. 555 00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.029 And I was like, wait a second. Do I have 556 00:26:58.049 --> 00:27:02.910 a key issue here? So, Chris, I'll let you think here. 557 00:27:02.990 --> 00:27:04.430 It was going to be Steve coming back. 558 00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:07.730 Yeah, I actually thought it might be Falcon as well. 559 00:27:08.089 --> 00:27:12.630 And it just poses more questions like, why are you 560 00:27:12.670 --> 00:27:13.309 doing this now? 561 00:27:13.470 --> 00:27:15.150 Like, if you're going to be Captain America. 562 00:27:15.369 --> 00:27:15.589 Right. 563 00:27:16.630 --> 00:27:18.359 And then it gets to the reveal of his arm, 564 00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:19.980 and I'm like, so is he a cyborg now? 565 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:23.440 That's not really explained. And then jumping ahead, we get 566 00:27:23.460 --> 00:27:23.720 to the. 567 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.299 How could somebody with a bionic arm be Captain America? 568 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:27.700 At first, I was like, is this Cable? 569 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:28.440 I know! 570 00:27:28.460 --> 00:27:29.160 Same thing! 571 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:32.259 I'm like, oh, wait, wait. Some white dude in a mask. 572 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:35.700 Jumping ahead to the ending, it's like, why isn't he 573 00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:36.869 just Captain America? 574 00:27:37.809 --> 00:27:38.049 Yeah. 575 00:27:38.269 --> 00:27:41.269 I don't really understand why Steve feels like he can't 576 00:27:42.069 --> 00:27:42.849 be Cap anymore. 577 00:27:42.910 --> 00:27:43.609 I don't know. 578 00:27:43.650 --> 00:27:45.660 None of that stuff made sense. I thought that It 579 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:47.539 was a cool fight with him and Frank and everything. 580 00:27:47.579 --> 00:27:51.200 I liked it. And the resolution had been, hey, I 581 00:27:51.220 --> 00:27:53.690 can retake the mantle now. Right. That would have made 582 00:27:53.730 --> 00:27:55.349 more sense to me than what they ended up doing. 583 00:27:55.470 --> 00:27:58.690 Well, the explanation he gives, because Frank says, why don't 584 00:27:58.710 --> 00:28:01.529 you just do it yourself? He says, I said Captain 585 00:28:01.569 --> 00:28:04.869 America had to be a man, mortal flesh and blood, 586 00:28:05.089 --> 00:28:06.049 and I am neither. 587 00:28:08.750 --> 00:28:10.509 Does that mean he's an LMD? 588 00:28:10.529 --> 00:28:15.339 Yeah, I get it. For the purposes of the story, 589 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.440 I guess I was like, OK, all right. For any 590 00:28:18.619 --> 00:28:22.900 if there's anything that Steve Rogers stood for, it's for 591 00:28:23.660 --> 00:28:28.700 some type of ideal, some type of hard, fast. All right. Humanity. 592 00:28:28.779 --> 00:28:29.299 There's hope. 593 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.559 There's hope in humanity. And he apparently doesn't feel like 594 00:28:33.619 --> 00:28:37.880 he's human enough. to be Captain America, although I could 595 00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:40.920 get it. There was more of an explanation like, well, 596 00:28:41.019 --> 00:28:42.960 even though I've got this bionic arm, they also put 597 00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:45.900 metal parts in my brain, and that could impact my thinking, 598 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.890 and therefore I would not make a good decision for humanity. Instead, 599 00:28:50.589 --> 00:28:52.390 he becomes Terminator or something. I don't know. 600 00:28:52.650 --> 00:28:53.069 Whatever. 601 00:28:53.630 --> 00:28:55.910 But yeah, it is kind of flimsy. It's kind of 602 00:28:55.930 --> 00:28:59.569 flimsy on the face of it. But we get what 603 00:28:59.690 --> 00:29:02.730 I feel is probably the best part of this whole book, 604 00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:06.210 And that's Furman writing the events that are going to 605 00:29:06.250 --> 00:29:09.450 happen after this. So after the fight, Steve, well, they 606 00:29:09.470 --> 00:29:11.950 start getting fired upon. And Rogers jumps up and he 607 00:29:11.990 --> 00:29:13.730 hits this gunman and knocks him out. And he turns 608 00:29:13.750 --> 00:29:15.589 around because he ain't done with Frank yet. But Frank's 609 00:29:15.789 --> 00:29:18.609 done with him. Frank takes off and ends up fighting 610 00:29:18.650 --> 00:29:22.670 Bruno Costa. And he's got Bruno Costa at gunpoint here. 611 00:29:22.710 --> 00:29:29.289 There was a large conversation that Frank and Steve had 612 00:29:29.579 --> 00:29:33.519 before he got there. Steve tells Frank, Captain America is 613 00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:37.490 an example. Kids see that costume. They see what Captain 614 00:29:37.509 --> 00:29:39.990 America does. They learn something from it. 615 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:40.230 It. 616 00:29:41.059 --> 00:29:43.440 Maybe one kid looks at Captain America and chooses not 617 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.680 to become a criminal. Maybe somebody chooses to become better 618 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:50.759 because of what that symbol represents. And Steve basically tells Frank, 619 00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:54.349 if Captain America behaves like the Punisher, then what exactly 620 00:29:54.460 --> 00:29:57.660 are you teaching those people? And that's where I think 621 00:29:58.299 --> 00:30:01.740 a lot of the argument in this

comic gets pretty interesting, 622 00:30:01.779 --> 00:30:05.599 because underneath the superhero gimmick, Furman's making an argument about 623 00:30:05.619 --> 00:30:09.779 the difference between a hero and an antihero. The Punisher 624 00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:13.579 is not supposed to be inspirational. You might enjoy reading 625 00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.000 about Frank. You might understand why he does what he does. 626 00:30:16.059 --> 00:30:18.740 You might even sympathize with him. But Captain America is 627 00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:22.509 supposed to make you want to become something better. And 628 00:30:22.650 --> 00:30:26.069 Evan and I have had plenty of conversations, and we 629 00:30:26.109 --> 00:30:29.529 just had one earlier, about characters like Punisher and Deadpool, 630 00:30:29.569 --> 00:30:32.450 the whole idea of people sometimes taking the wrong lesson 631 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:36.900 from anti-heroes. So what do you think about this argument here? 632 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:38.640 You think it's a pretty competent argument, Evan? 633 00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:39.759 Yeah. 634 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.599 My issue, and you may feel the same, is I'm 635 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:46.220 not sure that that argument would apply to Frank Castle, 636 00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:50.250 or why hasn't it ever gotten through to him. I guess... 637 00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:53.700 The explanation would be that he's still very early in 638 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:57.559 his punishing days and had the whole Captain America thing 639 00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.559 going on too, so it's not exactly the same circumstances. 640 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.240 But yeah, I totally agree, and I like this idea 641 00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:08.900 that there's still some humanity left in Frank at that point. Yeah, 642 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:10.990 that's always my argument. There's a better way than just 643 00:31:11.009 --> 00:31:14.990 straight up killing people. And I think most what-ifs are 644 00:31:15.049 --> 00:31:19.180 one-and-done stories. And that's the appeal of them is, hey, 645 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.859 look at all the crazy stuff that's happening. Cyborg Captain America, 646 00:31:23.259 --> 00:31:26.940 Doc Samson, all this stuff not. Well, let's go with 647 00:31:27.029 --> 00:31:32.750 a nuanced take on violence and patriotism and people's motivations. 648 00:31:32.849 --> 00:31:36.609 So in that regard, I think this issue succeeds as 649 00:31:36.670 --> 00:31:39.779 a what if. But yeah, that's another thing where there 650 00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:42.680 could have been more exploration and explanation of a lot 651 00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:43.339 of these things. 652 00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:44.140 Right. Yeah. 653 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.619 You've only got so many pages in your one shot. 654 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:48.279 What if issue to do that in? 655 00:31:48.299 --> 00:31:51.839 You only get one shot. Do not miss your one shot. 656 00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:55.640 Geez. Frank Castle's not nuanced. Not the one I care 657 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.480 about anyway. The Punisher I prefer as like the Terminator style. 658 00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:02.660 And maybe that can be boring. I understand that perspective. 659 00:32:02.740 --> 00:32:05.920 But to me, this Punisher is too human and it's 660 00:32:05.980 --> 00:32:07.359 not how I think of the Punisher. 661 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:07.500 Okay. 662 00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:10.730 As such, I did not really like the ending. 663 00:32:11.430 --> 00:32:13.549 I get it. I get it. I mean, yeah. I mean, 664 00:32:13.650 --> 00:32:15.750 one of my notes here is when we finally get 665 00:32:15.789 --> 00:32:19.789 to Castles got the gun to Brutal Costas face. And 666 00:32:19.829 --> 00:32:24.039 then he starts thinking about what Captain America said. And 667 00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:27.240 one could say that I imagine at some point Steve 668 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.759 Rogers in the continuity has had the opportunity to talk 669 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:33.119 to Frank about what he does. I know that that's happened. 670 00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:36.490 I'm pretty sure in the Marvel 616. It's not changed 671 00:32:36.650 --> 00:32:39.910 what Castle's decided to do with his life. And again, 672 00:32:40.009 --> 00:32:42.509 maybe you're right, Evan. This is happening early on enough 673 00:32:43.190 --> 00:32:46.599 in the Punisher's lifetime where, okay, this can kind of 674 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:49.000 sink in. But yeah, he finds Bruno Costa. He's got 675 00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:51.299 him all alone. This is the man responsible. This is 676 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:56.609 the dude. That supposedly either started the gangs firing on 677 00:32:56.650 --> 00:32:59.470 each other, got his family caught in the crossfire. Frank 678 00:32:59.569 --> 00:33:03.410 has the gun to his head, and we know what 679 00:33:03.450 --> 00:33:06.650 normally happens next. He's going to pull this trigger, but 680 00:33:06.690 --> 00:33:11.210 Steve's words stay with him. He starts thinking about his children. 681 00:33:11.230 --> 00:33:14.240 He starts thinking about the example he's setting for other children. 682 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.039 And he wonders about whether his wife and kids would 683 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:20.019 actually be proud of what he's about to do. And 684 00:33:20.099 --> 00:33:26.839 Frank lowers the gun and he cuffs Bruno instead. Now, 685 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.009 I mentioned this on the last podcast. If you hear 686 00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:32.589 any plugs, I'm reading Mike Barron's Punisher right now. And 687 00:33:33.250 --> 00:33:36.250 that version of Frank Castle is not putting the gun down. 688 00:33:38.569 --> 00:33:40.769 You're not talking him out of pulling that trigger in 689 00:33:40.970 --> 00:33:44.450 any way. This here is clearly a different version of 690 00:33:44.470 --> 00:33:47.720 Frank Castle. But yeah, he's

had different experiences. He fought 691 00:33:47.740 --> 00:33:53.140 alongside the Avengers. He carried the shield. And Steve Rogers 692 00:33:53.299 --> 00:33:56.359 just confronted him and said, dude, what are you doing? 693 00:33:56.539 --> 00:33:58.579 Don't you understand what you're doing? 694 00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:01.710 Could we agree that whether you think it would actually 695 00:34:01.750 --> 00:34:04.869 work or not, in all the Marvel Universe, Steve Rogers 696 00:34:04.930 --> 00:34:06.470 is the only guy who could. 697 00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:10.750 I could believe that. Like, there are a couple of 698 00:34:10.789 --> 00:34:13.409 things that Steve Rogers can do, and that's pick up 699 00:34:13.449 --> 00:34:17.739 Mjolnir and then also Frank Castle out of killing somebody. 700 00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:23.119 The other big thing is like he watches Frank. Steve 701 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:26.199 watches Frank from a distance and doesn't interfere when he 702 00:34:26.260 --> 00:34:28.380 has this gun. So it takes a lot of faith 703 00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:31.420 for Steve Rogers to just kind of sit back and 704 00:34:31.539 --> 00:34:34.260 watch to see if the words that he said to 705 00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:38.349 Frank actually sink in. And then when he realizes that 706 00:34:38.389 --> 00:34:43.130 it does, Steve Rogers is finally content and gives him 707 00:34:43.369 --> 00:34:46.940 permission to use the shield. And that's basically where we 708 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:49.539 leave the reality. Steve Rogers, I think, becomes the captain. 709 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:55.880 And Frank ends up becoming, steadily becomes Captain America. And 710 00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:59.440 the Punisher is no more. Frank earned the uniform here, 711 00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:03.000 I think. He did not just inherit it. He went 712 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:05.659 through all these trials and tribulations and passed the test here. 713 00:35:06.230 --> 00:35:11.230 and earned those red, white, and blue duds. So, all right, 714 00:35:11.250 --> 00:35:14.210 so there you go. That's, to me, I like this issue. 715 00:35:14.230 --> 00:35:16.349 I liked it a lot. I like the discussion that 716 00:35:16.429 --> 00:35:19.469 Furman's trying to have about a hero and an anti-hero, which, 717 00:35:19.829 --> 00:35:22.489 this is 93. Anti-heroes are, they are all the rage. 718 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:25.260 Yeah. 719 00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:27.719 At this point. So it's a pretty brave and kind 720 00:35:27.739 --> 00:35:30.199 of bold thing to go and say, right. 721 00:35:30.219 --> 00:35:30.820 Wrong company. 722 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:32.179 Oh yeah. My bad. 723 00:35:32.460 --> 00:35:33.989 This is a team up. 724 00:35:34.139 --> 00:35:36.880 This was a marvelous way. This was a marvelous way 725 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.579 of trying to address probably what a lot of like 726 00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:43.820 veteran writers are feeling about this anti-hero trend. 727 00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:47.260 Maybe my basic summary of this issue was not bad. 728 00:35:47.300 --> 00:35:49.570 The pacing's off cause it's all crammed into one, but 729 00:35:49.610 --> 00:35:52.150 I like the idea of cap inspiring Frank. I'm not 730 00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:56.280 sure I buy it, but I like the idea. someone 731 00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.429 doing the right thing and inspiring someone rather than beating 732 00:35:59.469 --> 00:36:01.929 the crap out of them or killing them to get 733 00:36:01.949 --> 00:36:05.269 their point across. If this was DC, the only guy 734 00:36:05.289 --> 00:36:07.409 that could probably get through to him is Superman. So 735 00:36:07.710 --> 00:36:11.050 I do like that concept. I think it's a good story. 736 00:36:11.110 --> 00:36:14.300 And I think any of the shortcomings are primarily just 737 00:36:14.780 --> 00:36:17.920 limited by the one and done nature of what if, 738 00:36:17.980 --> 00:36:21.079 which usually I like. Most what ifs are so depressing, 739 00:36:21.099 --> 00:36:23.630 you don't want to stay in that world forever. very long. 740 00:36:23.670 --> 00:36:24.469 That's true. 741 00:36:24.489 --> 00:36:27.469 Someone who loves what ifs. So yeah, this is the 742 00:36:27.530 --> 00:36:29.670 rare instance where I'm like, yeah, we could have done 743 00:36:29.789 --> 00:36:32.869 with more, but that just in terms of the execution, 744 00:36:32.889 --> 00:36:34.599 the overall story, I liked it. 745 00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:37.780 Yeah. Overall, I thought it was pretty good. 746 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:42.119 Again, I like the idea that Captain America is the 747 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:46.659 one guy who can kind of convince Punisher, but also 748 00:36:46.739 --> 00:36:50.590 I don't really think he could. Punisher was seen earlier 749 00:36:50.630 --> 00:36:54.150 in the issue, just murdering a bunch of, criminals but 750 00:36:54.210 --> 00:36:55.550 at the end they're like hey you can still have 751 00:36:55.570 --> 00:37:00.639 the shield buddy so overall i did like it but 752 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:04.119 it's not without its flaws i do want to mention 753 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.500 paris cullens the artist who i have never heard of 754 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:10.539 before i do like his art overall a lot of 755 00:37:10.579 --> 00:37:14.849 it is pretty standard generic stuff but there's also some 756 00:37:14.909 --> 00:37:18.969 pretty cool dynamic poses and action sequences and stuff so 757 00:37:19.900 --> 00:37:21.559 While I think his art is a little uneven, I 758 00:37:21.579 --> 00:37:23.159 do like a lot of it. He almost seems like 759 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:25.820 a guy, again, this is me not knowing anything about him, 760 00:37:25.929 --> 00:37:28.670 it almost seems like he's a young artist who could 761 00:37:28.710 --> 00:37:31.909 definitely grow into a really good artist eventually. But he's 762 00:37:31.929 --> 00:37:35.070 got some good and some mediocre stuff

in here. 763 00:37:35.550 --> 00:37:36.409 Yeah, you mentioned some. 764 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:48.820 And a lot of these, there's quite a few full-page 765 00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:49.519 splashes in here. 766 00:37:49.539 --> 00:37:50.699 There's like three or four of them. 767 00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:51.519 Yeah, yeah. 768 00:37:51.619 --> 00:37:53.900 Which was interesting to me. I don't really understand why 769 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:54.719 that is, but yeah. 770 00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:59.449 You mentioned coloring, having some color issues on the previous 771 00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:02.030 discussion about Thunderbolts. I think you might have had some 772 00:38:02.070 --> 00:38:03.989 concerns about what was going on there. I think there 773 00:38:04.010 --> 00:38:05.789 were some coloring issues here for me. It might have 774 00:38:05.809 --> 00:38:07.829 been the version I was reading, but man, there was 775 00:38:07.849 --> 00:38:09.429 some stuff that felt a little off when it came 776 00:38:09.449 --> 00:38:12.489 to the coloring. Art wasn't horrible. Just like you said, 777 00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:15.920 there's some splash pages in here. it wasn't anything extremely 778 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:18.579 dynamic in my opinion, but it served the issue. Well, 779 00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:20.880 in my opinion, this guy gets some more stuff under 780 00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:25.429 his belt. He'll be impressive, but all right. Well, all right. Well, 781 00:38:25.449 --> 00:38:26.889 let's go ahead and pick panel and we will get 782 00:38:27.010 --> 00:38:29.929 out of here. I won the poll. So I'm picking 783 00:38:29.949 --> 00:38:33.719 my panel and there are some really good ones and 784 00:38:33.739 --> 00:38:36.159 I don't want to take any of your guys's. So 785 00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:40.760 I'm going to, my panel is, uh, The reveal of 786 00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:44.579 Captain America, but not him standing there. It's the reveal 787 00:38:44.619 --> 00:38:48.059 of the cybernetic arm where he's got the one. It's 788 00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:51.849 kind of like facing toward the reader and you see 789 00:38:51.909 --> 00:38:55.369 like the large cybernetic arm that's going up. And to me, 790 00:38:55.429 --> 00:38:58.210 that just stood out. I took that because what's more 791 00:38:58.630 --> 00:39:01.949 90s than Captain America getting a cybernetic arm? 792 00:39:02.050 --> 00:39:04.710 So maybe the closest you get to cable is Captain America. 793 00:39:04.789 --> 00:39:08.119 That's true. So, all right, Evan, I'll give you the 794 00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:08.659 second one here. 795 00:39:09.489 --> 00:39:14.389 Well, mine is unlimited. It's labeled page 21. It's the 796 00:39:14.409 --> 00:39:17.900 left side of the page. It's Frank loading up his 797 00:39:17.980 --> 00:39:21.219 gun in full Punisher gear with all the Captain America 798 00:39:21.260 --> 00:39:24.000 stuff at his feet, where he's decided to move on 799 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:27.610 from being Captain America. It's a cool juxtaposition there. Yeah. 800 00:39:28.429 --> 00:39:29.659 All right, Chris, what do you got? 801 00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:34.679 I'm going to go, I think it's page 14, panel one. 802 00:39:34.739 --> 00:39:36.360 It's Frank in his Punisher gear. 803 00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:37.820 I think it's the first time we really see him 804 00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:40.199 in the gear, and he's on a rooftop kind of 805 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:44.340 running towards the quote-unquote camera with a handgun out. 806 00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:46.929 I kind of like that image of Frank. 807 00:39:47.570 --> 00:39:50.789 I did look quickly because I was curious about Paris Cullens. 808 00:39:51.969 --> 00:39:54.489 And he was born in 1960, so he was in 809 00:39:54.530 --> 00:39:56.489 his early 30s when he did this book. 810 00:39:56.610 --> 00:39:59.550 He had already done... Blue Devil for. 811 00:39:59.429 --> 00:40:03.190 DC, among other things. Cullen's penciled his first full-length comic, 812 00:40:03.230 --> 00:40:04.230 Blue Devil No. 1. 813 00:40:04.190 --> 00:40:04.929 It says, in 1984. 814 00:40:04.929 --> 00:40:07.099 Throwback to CBIQ. 815 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:10.269 Exactly. We just talked about him. 816 00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:13.239 And then he later did some stuff for Hyperkind, the 817 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:14.820 Clive Barker razor line. 818 00:40:14.860 --> 00:40:15.500 Oh, yeah. 819 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:17.460 So he was a. 820 00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:19.719 Veteran at this point, had been in the business for 821 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:22.960 about a little over a decade, I guess. But he 822 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:24.980 had a pretty extensive career, at least through the 90s. 823 00:40:26.510 --> 00:40:29.050 All right, well, let's go ahead. We'll get into plugs. 824 00:40:29.170 --> 00:40:31.650 Evan Bevins, you have the floor, sir. Please plug away. 825 00:40:32.610 --> 00:40:36.360 When I'm not talking comics with you or Marvel Snap, 826 00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:43.480 you can read my work at ebasterisk51. substack. com. That's where I'm 827 00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.719 putting new stuff out, but I've got over 300 posts 828 00:40:45.739 --> 00:40:50.860 at asterisk51. blogspot. com. If you want to go back through there 829 00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:54.320 for comics and movies, you can find Dollar Tree on 830 00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:58.760 Free Comic Book Day, NFL Super Pro, Secret Defenders, Stan 831 00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.489 Lee creating the DC Universe, Amalgam. We've gone through all 832 00:41:02.510 --> 00:41:05.210 of those. And also once a month over on the 833 00:41:05.250 --> 00:41:09.949 Magazines and Monsters channel, you can hear me and Billy Dee, a.k.a. 834 00:41:09.989 --> 00:41:13.719 Doc Strange, and Ed Moore talk about Marvel fanfare. And 835 00:41:13.860 --> 00:41:15.860 most of the issues are not at all traumatic. 836 00:41:16.780 --> 00:41:18.019 Most. Most. 837

00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:18.760 Most. Yeah, yeah. 838 00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:22.000 Currently retweeting Evan Bevins right now because. 839 00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:23.280 He quoted me. 840 00:41:24.380 --> 00:41:25.900 Why rewrite the wheel? 841 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:26.599 Thanks, Evan. 842 00:41:26.619 --> 00:41:27.380 Appreciate that. 843 00:41:27.460 --> 00:41:29.389 Hey, man, you know. 844 00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:30.550 Chris Armstrong. 845 00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:32.610 I didn't mean to spoil the good content. 846 00:41:32.730 --> 00:41:35.309 All right, Chris, you got the floor, man. 847 00:41:36.909 --> 00:41:39.409 Yeah, I have a couple of movie podcasts I work 848 00:41:39.469 --> 00:41:40.929 on with my buddy AJ. 849 00:41:41.289 --> 00:41:42.269 One is called Small Screeners. 850 00:41:42.289 --> 00:41:46.010 We're talking about direct-to-video and made-for-TV movies where we once 851 00:41:46.070 --> 00:41:49.489 covered the Punisher series. direct-to-video movie from the early 90s. 852 00:41:50.179 --> 00:41:53.519 We also have one called Because Movies, where we talk 853 00:41:53.539 --> 00:41:55.599 about whatever movie stuff we kind of feel like talking about. 854 00:41:55.619 --> 00:41:58.559 You can find those on your podcatcher of choice. 855 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.320 Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, check out the Unspoken Issues on 856 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.409 the Source Material Comics podcast feed. We've got all sorts 857 00:42:04.449 --> 00:42:07.449 of great discussion on 90s comics over there. And you 858 00:42:07.469 --> 00:42:10.389 can check out the Source Material podcast proper, where we 859 00:42:10.429 --> 00:42:13.300 talk about comic books of any era. we should be 860 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:15.949 finishing up i think at some point here pretty soon 861 00:42:16.030 --> 00:42:19.530 our discussion on batman fugitive i think is where we're 862 00:42:19.610 --> 00:42:22.489 at and then hey if you want more punisher like 863 00:42:22.510 --> 00:42:24.809 i said i'm doing a solo series right now where 864 00:42:24.949 --> 00:42:29.090 it is me just talking about the ongoing series if 865 00:42:29.110 --> 00:42:31.699 there's any crossovers i'll probably be talking about that like 866 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:34.199 i already did one where i talked about a issue 867 00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:37.500 of daredevil that crossed over with the Punisher. I'm already 868 00:42:37.539 --> 00:42:40.300 to issue 14, and I've got a couple other issues 869 00:42:40.489 --> 00:42:42.929 in the can here ready to release at some point. 870 00:42:43.389 --> 00:42:43.889 Great discussion. 871 00:42:43.929 --> 00:42:45.750 I'm trying to figure out, I think I'm starting to 872 00:42:45.829 --> 00:42:49.269 realize this is more of like a discovery for myself 873 00:42:49.349 --> 00:42:51.889 as to why I like, or why I really liked 874 00:42:52.010 --> 00:42:54.010 the Punisher, because I've never really sat down and read 875 00:42:54.050 --> 00:42:56.929 the whole ongoing I've read more issues that I haven't 876 00:42:56.969 --> 00:43:00.460 read during this podcast than I actually had. So yeah, 877 00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.260 it's a great exploration of some of the stuff that 878 00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:04.860 goes through Frank's head and why in the world does 879 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:06.460 some of it make sense and some of it doesn't. 880 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:07.019 Good stuff. 881 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:09.980 And also to watch Mike Barron use a lot of 882 00:43:10.139 --> 00:43:12.719 real world references. And this issue 14 I just did, 883 00:43:12.739 --> 00:43:17.449 I swear was based on the movie The Substitute with 884 00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:21.030 Tom Barringer. But it turned out this issue released in 885 00:43:21.030 --> 00:43:24.070 88 and And the Barringer movie, I didn't think come 886 00:43:24.150 --> 00:43:27.989 out until like 96. I thought, wow, there's some real 887 00:43:28.010 --> 00:43:30.969 parallels here. But Frank Castle just basically goes into a 888 00:43:30.989 --> 00:43:35.929 school and yeah, he does some substitute stuff. And then 889 00:43:36.219 --> 00:43:38.760 it's only one issue of him doing that. And it 890 00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:41.780 could have very well been the inspiration. Who knows? But anyway, 891 00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:43.880 we're out of here. We've been talking too long. That 892 00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:47.559 is Chris Armstrong over there. My name is Jesse Starcher. 893 00:43:47.579 --> 00:43:51.699 We're talking. Who am I again? We're out of here. Bye. 894 00:43:53.889 --> 00:43:54.340 Thank you.