Full Transcript for Melinda Mullet

know, a lot of people, and people listening to this will, you know, have a great idea and reveretiously, but writing a novel, it does require craft and skill. 05:31.111 --> 05:42.961 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and you've been writing forever and you built up your skill that way, how did you transform it into story structure, making sure you're hitting the beats and, you know, really wrestling with your manuscripts. 05:44.798 --> 05:50.683 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I would say I learned on my first book, trial and error, a lot of trial and error with that. 05:51.423 --> 05:53.705 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, they say you never sell your first book. 05:54.186 --> 05:59.230 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I probably rewrote my first book 12 times, but I did sell it. 05:59.930 --> 06:09.078 [SPEAKER_01]: So, there's truth in that that you don't sell your first story, but if you have the patience to keep working with an idea that you like, then you may well get there. 06:09.818 --> 06:13.121 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I was incredibly fortunate that, um, 06:14.455 --> 06:17.479 [SPEAKER_01]: I have an amazing agent, just absolutely amazing. 06:17.740 --> 06:23.929 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had a book that was a great idea, largely fleshed out. 06:25.826 --> 06:36.356 [SPEAKER_01]: I have, I'm a good writer in quotes and people tell me that all the time you're a good writer and I send it to her and she saw something there and God love her, she spent a year working with me. 06:36.516 --> 06:51.149 [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of the learning came in at that point where she, you know, explained that this is going to have to be more this or that and this is your word count and this is where you need to stay within for certain parameters and, you know, this character, that character all of that. 06:52.311 --> 07:06.303 [SPEAKER_01]: But by the time she was finished with me and it we had a sensible book and that was that was tremendous So nobody does it alone and Yeah, she was brilliant, but once you get through the first one, it gets easier 07:08.119 --> 07:16.605 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Melinda, what you're saying is important as well is when people help are going to help you hone your craft, listen to that. 07:16.645 --> 07:23.130 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you have to, if you rewrote 12 times, you are open to doing, you know, fixing your novel. 07:23.170 --> 07:29.475 [SPEAKER_00]: You weren't so wetted to what it was, you know, probably the idea and the characters are staying the same. 07:29.495 --> 07:29.635 [SPEAKER_00]: But, 07:30.055 --> 07:41.335 [SPEAKER_00]: you were soaking in things that would make it better and some people get precious about especially that first book because it's a baby and you can't be precious about it in editing. 07:42.632 --> 07:43.792 [SPEAKER_01]: You absolutely cannot. 07:43.812 --> 07:45.213 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to be completely open. 07:45.233 --> 07:54.217 [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean that you roll over when somebody is saying something that you truly, truly feel strongly about and the heart of your character or the heart of your story. 07:54.897 --> 07:57.298 [SPEAKER_01]: But you do need to be very open. 07:57.338 --> 08:04.421 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's something that editors and agents alike look for is you don't want an unreasonable author. 08:04.841 --> 08:07.522 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want somebody who's just gonna look at you and say, nope. 08:08.322 --> 08:09.223 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, not doing that. 08:09.323 --> 08:10.383 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's right. 08:10.884 --> 08:22.510 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, you have to sit with the critiques you get for a little bit because it's Everybody's tentant to see right to kind of go, oh my god, you know, they're criticizing my work and then you just sit with it for a bit and you go. 08:23.512 --> 08:23.772 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 08:23.993 --> 08:24.133 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:24.153 --> 08:24.293 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:24.313 --> 08:24.513 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 08:24.613 --> 08:25.134 [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. 08:25.634 --> 08:34.983 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, one of the tricks I did early on was I would cut out things that they thought needed to go and I would put it in a separate document because I'm like, I'm not getting rid of it. 08:35.223 --> 08:36.905 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to put it over there on the side. 08:37.505 --> 08:38.546 [SPEAKER_01]: So I can come back to it. 08:39.107 --> 08:42.851 [SPEAKER_01]: And nine times out of ten, you go back and you look at that stuff and you're like, 08:43.644 --> 08:44.305 [SPEAKER_01]: it needed to go. 08:44.525 --> 08:45.105 [SPEAKER_01]: They were right. 08:45.365 --> 08:49.628 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and they do often know so much more than you do when you're starting. 08:50.009 --> 08:55.633 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's it's very important and I think agents and editors do look for people that they can work with. 08:57.381 --> 09:13.271 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you're building a career, you're not writing a single book, you know, an agent or an editor wants to work with somebody over an agent, definitely over a course of a career, which means changes and, you know, exploration and everything else. 09:14.953 --> 09:31.728 [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes that happens to people get wedded to that first novel or that first series and you can, you know, some people that's that is their whole career, but most people need to adjust and change and twist and explore as well. 09:34.083 --> 09:47.690 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, and you know, there's always some merit and just because there's a suggestion that something needs to change or be done differently, sometimes you just need to think outside the box. 09:47.750 --> 09:53.773 [SPEAKER_01]: There are different ways of changing something and it doesn't always mean a wholesale rewrite. 09:54.273 --> 10:01.696 [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes it's good to go back and check with the person who's giving you the comment because they'll be like, no, I think you just needed a couple more

sentences here 10:02.977 --> 10:06.722 [SPEAKER_01]: not your view, which was like, oh my god, I have to rewrite the whole thing, right? 10:06.962 --> 10:08.564 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's that's not always the case. 10:08.604 --> 10:14.771 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes their view of what they're asking you to change is much smaller than the way you take it because we don't take it personally. 10:14.871 --> 10:15.472 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't help it. 10:16.373 --> 10:17.475 [SPEAKER_01]: As you said, it's your baby. 10:18.408 --> 10:26.272 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but as you're writing more and more, you also register to make it harder and harder on themselves. 10:26.392 --> 10:29.453 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they think, okay, so I've got this down. 10:29.493 --> 10:37.957 [SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm gonna add this or texture this in or, you know, really keep pushing myself, craft-wise, so it's wrong. 10:38.398 --> 10:41.259 [SPEAKER_00]: Even within the same series, like, okay, let me, let me, 10:41.799 --> 10:46.822 [SPEAKER_00]: add this layer or let me add a subplot or do something that's going to make it more difficult. 10:47.262 --> 10:48.603 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, absolutely. 10:48.923 --> 10:52.305 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, actually don't know that for me that that makes it more difficult. 10:52.325 --> 10:56.768 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that opens up possibilities more than anything else when you start adding. 10:57.348 --> 11:02.610 [SPEAKER_01]: a new character, a new subplot, and a lot of them suggest themselves very naturally. 11:03.250 --> 11:12.193 [SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of feel that if it's not suggesting itself naturally, then those the ones that later on, you may get an editor who comes to you and says, do we really need this character? 11:12.273 --> 11:17.634 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they showed up in four scenes, and then you didn't use them again, and you're like, hey, yeah, okay, maybe we didn't need them. 11:17.694 --> 11:19.635 [SPEAKER_01]: But they seem like a good idea at the time. 11:21.352 --> 11:34.063 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and you mentioned that you're a platter and, you know, adding subcharacters, subplots or different characters, everything needs to serve the theme of the novel itself. 11:34.143 --> 11:39.827 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, again, this is just you intellectually, I'll speak for myself. 11:40.088 --> 11:44.952 [SPEAKER_00]: You intellectually understand something at the beginning, but after you've done a few times like, oh, 11:45.652 --> 11:48.674 [SPEAKER_00]: That's like in high school, you talk about theme all the time. 11:48.694 --> 11:53.638 [SPEAKER_00]: After you've written a book, you're like, oh, that's, that's how theme is helpful. 11:53.758 --> 12:07.768 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I may sound a little bit naive there, but it's in practice that you actually understand how things serve the overall story and or you can make them a serve the under the overall story. 12:10.032 --> 12:17.715 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I mean, when I say I'm a plotter, I am a plotter at some levels, I always have characters in mind. 12:18.135 --> 12:23.918 [SPEAKER_01]: I usually have a setting in mind and my settings for often, if not always, a good part of... 12:25.239 --> 12:25.719 [SPEAKER_01]: the story. 12:25.739 --> 12:30.104 [SPEAKER_01]: It's another character, eventually, is the personality of this place. 12:31.326 --> 12:33.989 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I usually have a murder in mind. 12:34.610 --> 12:36.772 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, always good to start with a murder in mind. 12:36.893 --> 12:39.756 [SPEAKER_01]: And then usually some sort of relationship theme. 12:40.737 --> 12:49.904 [SPEAKER_01]: the one I'm writing was all about family, you know, found families, real families, the conflicts that exist between different types of families. 12:50.245 --> 13:00.173 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you keep those things in mind at the top of the page, from there, then I start getting the detail plotting, so that I'm sure that when I'm putting in clues or incidences, I 13:00.933 --> 13:01.974 [SPEAKER_01]: Almost a diagram. 13:02.174 --> 13:03.856 [SPEAKER_01]: Where have you followed that in? 13:03.936 --> 13:05.157 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you tied that off? 13:05.237 --> 13:09.681 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you, my husband said it's like an accounting system of ticking and tying? 13:09.741 --> 13:10.982 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you mentioned that? 13:11.022 --> 13:11.883 [SPEAKER_01]: Had did you follow it up? 13:12.083 --> 13:12.603 [SPEAKER_01]: You've done this? 13:12.643 --> 13:14.165 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you follow it up? 13:14.405 --> 13:15.986 [SPEAKER_01]: Are we getting that full domino effect? 13:16.046 --> 13:18.869 [SPEAKER_01]: Is each scene leading inexorably to the next? 13:19.009 --> 13:21.011 [SPEAKER_01]: Is there a reason that's tying it all together? 13:21.131 --> 13:25.795 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't see that, that's where you go and start making the real structural changes. 13:26.618 --> 13:28.759 [SPEAKER_00]: So when you start, you've got the victim. 13:28.819 --> 13:30.200 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know who the murderer is? 13:30.781 --> 13:37.265 [SPEAKER_01]: I have an idea, but I will say that it is often changed over time when I realize that's a little too prosaic. 13:37.325 --> 13:42.628 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what we need here is, or you'll see a character come in and you think, oh no, you're the one that killed a march you. 13:42.868 --> 13:46.911 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that can be a whole lot of fun too. 13:49.777 --> 14:00.450 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's no one way to write, I don't think we can all say that often enough because sometimes people say you have to do this or you know. 14:00.877 --> 14:02.278 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to do anything. 14:02.298 --> 14:04.879 [SPEAKER_00]: You just do need to sit down and write and finish. 14:04.899 --> 14:06.539 [SPEAKER_00]: The manuscript and then editing. 14:06.859 --> 14:08.780 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that part's important. 14:08.800 -->

14:11.261 [SPEAKER_00]: But the rest of it builds over time. 14:11.361 --> 14:19.044 [SPEAKER_00]: So do you find, as you've been writing, you've been changing how you approach things or you're writing a series. 14:19.104 --> 14:20.565 [SPEAKER_00]: You're working on book seven. 14:20.705 --> 14:26.607 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it more fun or you're taking longer to arc stories? 14:27.187 --> 14:29.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about the evolution of a series. 14:30.249 --> 14:38.135 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, when you are doing something that you've been in for a while, it is a little bit different, because you already have those characters pretty much set up. 14:38.195 --> 14:54.967 [SPEAKER_01]: Your new characters are predominantly, you know, one's particular addition for whatever reason, and creating those characters aren't usually you have a longer term sense of where people are going and how long it's going to take them to get there from your from your regulars, but 14:55.908 --> 15:02.895 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, I think my first one was different because, you know, you're just learning and you don't want you're doing by the second one. 15:03.055 --> 15:04.036 [SPEAKER_01]: I've gotten smarter. 15:04.637 --> 15:11.824 [SPEAKER_01]: I do scenes on index cards and then I often have them scattered all over the floor to like get all the scenes in the right order. 15:12.384 --> 15:15.347 [SPEAKER_01]: I can be very visual when I'm crafting this sort of thing. 15:15.667 --> 15:17.770 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, just sort of sit there and say, 15:18.550 --> 15:29.982 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, look at the scene in your mind's eye, the way you would a movie and continue on from there to make sure that, okay, well, what is the logical next scene and if I were watching this, where would I expect to go next? 15:30.723 --> 15:33.746 [SPEAKER_01]: So that, you know, is different from the first. 15:36.430 --> 15:40.032 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, I think you have your arcs pretty much planned out for your people. 15:40.152 --> 15:43.633 [SPEAKER_01]: It's that the newness comes in and the characters that enter. 15:44.814 --> 15:53.618 [SPEAKER_01]: And it seemed to be a very closed world when I started, you know, writing about a single Mont Distillery in rural Scotland, but there's a real. 15:55.726 --> 16:03.270 [SPEAKER_01]: process over there, and a lot of the distilleries now do tours, and they are, you know, into marketing, and they have people come and do expedition. 16:03.310 --> 16:05.250 [SPEAKER_01]: So we've had them do that. 16:05.591 --> 16:10.873 [SPEAKER_01]: So it brings in a constantly rotating cast of characters that are coming in for different things. 16:11.013 --> 16:18.416 [SPEAKER_01]: And so they bring their own problems with them, and although the locals are still, you know, they're with their own little quirks and foibles. 16:24.798 --> 16:35.532 [SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, no one would go to the distillery, I mean, it's like, um, so you lighting on a series. 16:37.453 --> 16:49.457 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is the business, and this is the mechanics, but usually, you know, with contracts, you sort of know, I've got two, three, four, one, however many books to tell a story, and you know, if you've got a three book contract, you can 17:06.263 --> 17:19.350 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely, and I think the whole business is changing so dramatically, and it's becoming difficult in ways that, you know, I actually feel very sorry for new authors. 17:19.430 --> 17:23.732 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the way we right now has really changed quite dramatically. 17:25.973 --> 17:32.977 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, everything from timeframes, the timeframe it takes now to sell a book, and then to get it produced. 17:33.938 --> 17:40.283 [SPEAKER_01]: The last one I, the standalone I just did, it took almost a year to get a publisher. 17:40.903 --> 17:47.809 [SPEAKER_01]: And then once you have a publisher, it took almost another year for it to hit their schedule rotation of books coming out. 17:47.909 --> 17:55.075 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, that's two years out from when you wrote something, which can be, you know, very challenging for folks. 17:56.882 --> 18:06.452 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and let's talk about that, you know, that process because I think that that's something people don't always understand as well is that, you know, when you 18:07.883 --> 18:14.185 [SPEAKER_00]: selling your agent needs to feel like, okay, you can do this, you know, this is going to be great. 18:14.785 --> 18:15.925 [SPEAKER_00]: We can sell it here. 18:16.705 --> 18:28.288 [SPEAKER_00]: But then they sell it to an acquire an editor and then that editor needs to sell it another level up so that they get it on a schedule or they may decide, you know, this would fit better next fall. 18:28.328 --> 18:29.728 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you're talking about. 18:29.828 --> 18:31.709 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not, you know, you don't 18:37.910 --> 18:38.651 [SPEAKER_00]: proposition. 18:39.071 --> 18:52.585 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I mean, that's I think one of the biggest learning curves that I had in all of this far more than the writing was that expectation of how things would operate once you did get that publisher and I 18:52.925 --> 18:58.709 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I started with one of the big five, and then I went to a mid-sized publisher. 18:58.789 --> 19:04.493 [SPEAKER_01]: I've done some self-publishing, so I've kind of tried my fingers in all of it to see. 19:05.734 --> 19:08.776 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a very different experience. 19:09.216 --> 19:10.517 [SPEAKER_01]: I've told folks I... 19:11.077 --> 19:30.402 [SPEAKER_01]: To me, it compares to, you know, when you're trying to get into university, some schools are very, very hard to get into, but once you get in, they're lovely and they, they kind of support you and it's kind of hard to flunk out because they're, you know, if you get into Harvard, they don't want you flunking out,

they want to make sure that you succeed. 19:30.922 --> 19:33.763 [SPEAKER_01]: there are other universities where it's super easy to get into. 19:34.484 --> 19:38.846 [SPEAKER_01]: And once you get in, they're going to try, you know, staying is the hard part, right? 19:39.266 --> 19:43.988 [SPEAKER_01]: Staying is really the hard part because they will try to weed you out and work you out law school is like that. 19:45.904 --> 19:48.867 [SPEAKER_01]: But with the publishing industry, it's kind of the worst of both. 19:48.987 --> 19:57.135 [SPEAKER_01]: It's tough to get in, and then when you do get in, nobody tells you that the support you think is going to be there is just not. 19:57.475 --> 20:06.564 [SPEAKER_01]: I never expect her that I would have to do as much self-promotion and publicity and all that stuff I figured, I don't have a nice little person that takes care of that for me. 20:06.584 --> 20:07.224 [SPEAKER_01]: They do not. 20:08.105 --> 20:19.175 [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely, whether they're large medium, you know, in the end one of the reasons I tried to do self-publishing for a couple of, you know, projects was just, you know, I'm going to be doing this anyway. 20:19.296 --> 20:21.698 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be publicizing the hell out of this by myself. 20:21.998 --> 20:30.626 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, why go through the horrors of having to, you know, give up a huge chunk of your income to somebody who's really doing very, very little for you. 20:30.646 --> 20:31.607 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 20:32.030 --> 20:32.290 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 20:32.650 --> 20:45.780 [SPEAKER_00]: And even if you have a publicity person or somebody with the publisher, they've got so many titles, and they make decisions, you know, and again, it's a business. 20:45.860 --> 20:48.382 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not who they like best. 20:48.402 --> 20:49.923 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a business decision. 20:50.023 --> 20:50.504 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's. 20:52.030 --> 20:56.854 [SPEAKER_00]: I love what you're saying, you have to own the business side of it for yourself, too. 20:56.974 --> 21:01.297 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's going to care about your publishing journey as much as you care about it. 21:02.378 --> 21:04.019 [SPEAKER_00]: So you've got to figure it out. 21:04.159 --> 21:07.482 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, it's, boy, it's changing now. 21:07.582 --> 21:11.145 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in the last five years, it's completely changed, right? 21:11.705 --> 21:16.869 [SPEAKER_01]: And by the May, I have a couple of author groups and we talk about, you know, some of the 21:22.013 --> 21:25.395 [SPEAKER_01]: I used to, I always added a lot on hard copy. 21:25.435 --> 21:30.457 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I will print out and add it because that's something that I just feel more comfortable doing. 21:30.997 --> 21:36.059 [SPEAKER_01]: I used to throw them in the recycles as soon as I'd finished, you know, inputting whatever I was inputting into the computer. 21:36.660 --> 21:38.300

[SPEAKER_01]: Not anymore, we keep it all. 21:38.440 --> 21:46.144 [SPEAKER_01]: We keep every shred of evidence because when somebody starts to question whether this is AI or not, you need to have things that 21:46.644 --> 21:49.106 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, in hand to show note that was me. 21:49.686 --> 21:50.847 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the thought process. 21:50.887 --> 21:52.208 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the editorial process. 21:52.709 --> 21:57.973 [SPEAKER_01]: And some of it obviously is online, but also some of it's just that hard copy paper that you keep. 21:58.753 --> 21:58.993 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 21:59.374 --> 21:59.594 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 21:59.674 --> 22:04.298 [SPEAKER_00]: With the timestamp, the date stamp and the bottom of the of the pages. 22:05.234 --> 22:21.839 [SPEAKER_00]: or even sample some of it's and that's another navigation that we, you know, who would have expected that AI is as we're recording this is relatively new it's three four years old, you know, chat GPT and it has completely 22:35.410 --> 22:42.657 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I'm pretty public about not being supportive of generative AI because of that, it steals from artists. 22:43.158 --> 22:52.447 [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, the witch hunts about AI for authors and having to prove that you didn't use it, especially for 22:53.426 --> 22:58.211 [SPEAKER_00]: books that were used to train AI is really challenging. 22:58.251 --> 23:01.734 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a very difficult time to navigate. 23:01.974 --> 23:02.555 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely. 23:02.575 --> 23:05.218 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's another hour-long discussion. 23:05.338 --> 23:16.589 [SPEAKER_01]: I, with my lawyer, had on, I still follow some of this because I find it, you know, not only relevant, but somewhat intriguing to see what they're doing in the case law about this. 23:17.930 --> 23:23.596 [SPEAKER_01]: I was part of the anthropic settlement and they had 10 of my books that obviously went with 23:25.568 --> 23:28.029 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no re-neumination, no permission. 23:28.889 --> 23:33.250 [SPEAKER_01]: And, but it's, it's wild to see where they are going with some of this. 23:33.390 --> 23:45.793 [SPEAKER_01]: And, and how they define harm and, and whether we are being harmed as authors by the fact that AI can now, you know, according to them, generate great books, you know, it's art. 23:45.893 --> 23:49.694 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is it really, and does it harm us to be deep? 23:50.014 --> 23:52.235 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, authors would say absolutely. 23:52.255 --> 23:55.036 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't want to be, you know, competing with AI trash. 23:55.176 --> 23:57.937 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, from a legal perspective, there's a lot of them saying no. 23:58.117 --> 24:00.838 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean you sell less books. 24:00.938 --> 24:03.879 [SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, you have no real right to complain. 24:03.999 --> 24:06.340 [SPEAKER_01]: So, we'll have to see over the long run. 24:07.068 --> 24:14.255 [SPEAKER_00]: what your legal hat to must be an interesting thing as an author all the time. 24:14.315 --> 24:18.019 [SPEAKER_00]: But right now, as you said, it's, I'm not a lawyer. 24:19.921 --> 24:26.828 [SPEAKER_00]: And but I, you know, because of sisters in crime, I'm sitting meetings and I listen to things and I read briefs and I do 24:27.228 --> 24:27.889 [SPEAKER_00]: do things. 24:28.290 --> 24:38.362 [SPEAKER_00]: But for lawyers who are always looking at angles in different ways, you know, they're sort of looking at law and case and all that's kind of stuff. 24:38.742 --> 24:44.870 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not always about, you know, what's, it's about what the law can, how it's interpreted. 24:44.970 --> 24:45.751 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, that's, 24:46.832 --> 25:03.138 [SPEAKER_00]: who are challenging and but for you it must be super challenging because you're wearing all your hats, especially because of your specific lot of experience, you know, this is you understand what's going on, which I'm sure makes it even harder. 25:04.038 --> 25:13.021 [SPEAKER_01]: It's well, it's disappointing because I can look at it and I can see the direction that certain things are going in, which can be very unsettling to realize that it's 25:14.880 --> 25:27.586 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm to demonstrate that we are actually being damaged by this and then you ask yourself the question of when we get that far down the path, you know, how much of that damage is irreparable for us as writers. 25:29.007 --> 25:32.909 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think some of the, you know, just ship to readers as well. 25:33.029 --> 25:37.752 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you have to think about what you as a reader want as well as as a writer. 25:37.992 --> 25:40.433 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to read books that are AI-generated? 25:40.993 --> 25:49.339 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people are quite fascinated by the process and are excited to give it a try for those of us who, you know, do this for a living, it's kind of disappointing. 25:49.859 --> 25:57.565 [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, what will come out in the wash is whether the product is really any good and if it turns out that the product is quite good. 25:58.285 --> 26:04.029 [SPEAKER_01]: It may well be something that, you know, we have to deal with from a competitive point of, which is anything else. 26:04.870 --> 26:09.333 [SPEAKER_01]: And I say that being not at all a fan of AI in any shape or a form. 26:09.635 --> 26:13.896 [SPEAKER_00]: I think readers, because we're all readers, I think it's educating readers as well. 26:14.497 --> 26:16.917 [SPEAKER_00]: And letting them know. 26:17.858 --> 26:25.540 [SPEAKER_00]: And I get, I get, I'm relentlessly optimistic despite the world. 26:25.820 --> 26:35.923 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just have to believe that the human creativity is something that cannot be replicated by a machine which regurgitates, but does it create? 26:38.530 --> 26:40.001 [SPEAKER_00]:

We'll see how all this goes. 26:41.579 --> 26:51.785 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, gosh, we could talk and we'll talk about this more and sisters in crime and other organizations will have conversations about this because it's super important for us all. 26:52.066 --> 26:53.246 [SPEAKER_00]: And this isn't just writers. 26:53.467 --> 27:01.371 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also graphic designers, artists, voice artists, whose voices were stolen and are being replicated by AI. 27:01.552 --> 27:06.675 [SPEAKER_00]: AI, there's some AI that pays creators, a licensing fee, 27:08.576 --> 27:11.699 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so that's also part of what people just need right now. 27:11.999 --> 27:12.219 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 27:12.619 --> 27:12.799 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 27:13.540 --> 27:13.720 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 27:14.020 --> 27:19.124 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and have your notes, there's not an invidious creeping of presence. 27:19.745 --> 27:29.973 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've had friends in our discussion group recently who are authors who are doing promotional things at bookstores and the bookstore will use AI to generate a flyer. 27:30.513 --> 27:34.717 [SPEAKER_01]: And I had a couple of friends come back and show the flyer and they're like, it's changed my book cover. 27:35.869 --> 27:37.952 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, that's, would you even think of that? 27:39.674 --> 27:42.818 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, why would it, it didn't like it? 27:42.898 --> 27:46.202 [SPEAKER_01]: So it altered it to something that it thought was more appropriate. 27:46.243 --> 27:49.747 [SPEAKER_01]: But then, you know, you're like, well, that's ridiculous. 27:49.787 --> 27:53.252 [SPEAKER_01]: But do you have to be mindful all the time that it's possibility? 27:54.473 --> 28:03.278 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think as authors, we can also say, you know, let people know that that's, we don't want to work with AI training materials, you know. 28:03.298 --> 28:07.600 [SPEAKER_00]: The book cover thing is really interesting because there's two layers to that. 28:07.780 --> 28:12.262 [SPEAKER_00]: One is that they uploaded the work of an artist into AI. 28:12.282 --> 28:16.425 [SPEAKER_00]: So now it's part of the AI learning, you know, data centers. 28:23.589 --> 28:24.118 [SPEAKER_00]: Just a little bit. 28:24.179 --> 28:24.912 [SPEAKER_00]: Just a little bit. 28:26.052 --> 28:27.553 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not helpful, but let's face it. 28:27.913 --> 28:31.936 [SPEAKER_01]: Most people are using AI at the moment because they are overwhelmed with work. 28:32.336 --> 28:32.896 [SPEAKER_01]: They're busy. 28:33.216 --> 28:34.878 [SPEAKER_01]: They think it's gonna save them some time. 28:35.258 --> 28:40.861 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are things that they just, it doesn't even occur to them to look that the book cover would be changed. 28:40.921 --> 28:45.224 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have to say if I were using it to do a flyer for something, that's not the first thing. 28:45.284 --> 28:46.105 [SPEAKER_01]: I would have thought about. 28:46.145 --> 28:50.487 [SPEAKER_01]: I would have looked to make sure it's spelled everything correctly and the words were on there and everything. 28:50.527 --> 28:53.509 [SPEAKER_01]: But to say, oh my gosh, that's not the same book cover 28:55.230 --> 28:57.272 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, would not even be something I would look for. 28:57.292 --> 28:58.913 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 28:58.973 --> 29:02.836 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's a note that a tier, your list folks. 29:03.537 --> 29:04.197 [SPEAKER_00]: Check things. 29:04.698 --> 29:06.799 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. 29:06.839 --> 29:07.960 [SPEAKER_01]: Something else to work about. 29:08.921 --> 29:14.085 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about the writing, you know, and the ideas in generation. 29:14.105 --> 29:15.726 [SPEAKER_00]: You've talked a little bit about your process. 29:15.987 --> 29:17.148 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you write in words? 29:17.208 --> 29:18.148 [SPEAKER_00]: You write in script. 29:19.518 --> 29:34.767 [SPEAKER_01]: I write in Word and I'm kind of glad I hate to keep harping on the air, but just to come back to that I know friends who have had to take documents out of Scrivener pasted into Word in order to send on to agents or publishers because most of them want Word. 29:35.867 --> 29:39.510 [SPEAKER_01]: Then you raise that spectrum of a book is suddenly shown up in Word. 29:40.650 --> 29:43.292 [SPEAKER_01]: all 80,000 words of it, you know, immediately. 29:43.473 --> 29:45.574 [SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to go back to the screener. 29:45.594 --> 29:47.436 [SPEAKER_01]: But yes, I've always used word. 29:47.976 --> 29:48.817 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it my favorite? 29:48.837 --> 29:50.798 [SPEAKER_01]: No, but it's what people demanded. 29:50.858 --> 29:53.881 [SPEAKER_01]: And I've gotten to a point where I have an uneasy piece with it. 29:54.141 --> 29:57.744 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can usually manage to do whatever I need to do with it. 29:58.068 --> 30:09.737 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and also, you know, just for folks to do the skirmers, you can take snapshots of your work, you know, multiple times, which will sort of take a picture of where you are. 30:09.817 --> 30:16.482 [SPEAKER_00]: So it actually has a built-in tool to be able to document trail to document, which is good. 30:17.142 --> 30:18.123 [SPEAKER_00]: But that is true. 30:18.403 --> 30:24.348 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is when you download into Word, it's a brand new document. 30:24.428 --> 30:24.728 [SPEAKER_00]: So, 30:26.974 --> 30:28.396 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a way, a tangled one. 30:28.456 --> 30:32.000 [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, this is advice for, this is advice for new authors. 30:32.040 --> 30:42.653 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say those of us who've been doing it a while and have a history have less of an issue, but yeah, if you're a brand new author, I'm afraid it's something you do have to think about in case those questions are raised at any point. 30:42.733 --> 30:44.575 [SPEAKER_01]: And you feel

compelled to, you know. 30:45.236 --> 30:45.856 [SPEAKER_01]: to fend yourself. 30:45.956 --> 30:53.461 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, an emailing yourself documents and you know keeping versions on in Dropbox or on your computer. 30:53.521 --> 30:55.562 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean all of this is important to do. 30:55.582 --> 31:06.208 [SPEAKER_00]: It is it is a world and so you know you gotta go forth and take and make sure that you're protecting yourself and you know you're 31:06.756 --> 31:27.134 [SPEAKER_00]: intellectual property, which again, you know that journey better than most, because if you're a law background, but time, you know, we talked earlier, started to talk about, you know, you, your husband being a whiskey collector and you sort of going to these places and thinking, 31:27.954 --> 31:29.095 [SPEAKER_00]: this would be great. 31:29.915 --> 31:32.277 [SPEAKER_00]: A great place to create this world. 31:32.597 --> 31:37.040 [SPEAKER_00]: Because you do, when you're writing, did you know this was going to be a series when you started? 31:37.480 --> 31:38.100 [SPEAKER_00]: I was hopeful. 31:38.420 --> 31:39.241 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 31:39.761 --> 31:40.161 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 31:40.281 --> 31:43.503 [SPEAKER_01]: I was hopeful because it was a, it was a fun group of characters. 31:43.603 --> 31:46.665 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know how many books it would wind up being. 31:48.286 --> 31:52.268 [SPEAKER_01]: And then some of that just depends on how people respond. 31:53.469 --> 32:01.876 [SPEAKER_01]: for whatever reason, it's a very, very popular series in Germany, so there's always a constant demand for when is the next one, when is the next one? 32:01.896 --> 32:17.509 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a very nice thing, but I'm also you know, the kind of person, I think most of us writers are that every day you see something that makes you go, you know, and think about as a possible thread, either in a story or a story 32:22.773 --> 32:28.436 [SPEAKER_01]: on the go and that, you know, the, the series is wonderful. 32:28.536 --> 32:32.378 [SPEAKER_01]: How long do you keep doing that to the expense of other things you'd like to write? 32:32.858 --> 32:34.519 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's, there's that to be said. 32:35.400 --> 32:46.705 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I talk about the gravitational pull of an idea that, you know, you, we all notice things and, you know, you notice somebody walking on the beach and, you know, you start making up stories. 32:46.725 --> 32:47.526 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how writers, 32:48.110 --> 33:01.282 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why Peter's oftentimes just stop talking is because they start imagining possibilities for whatever is happening, but at some point the rest of it comes, you know, comes into the orbit of. 33:01.725 --> 33:07.030 [SPEAKER_00]: And these are characters and here's a setting and gosh, this would be an interesting story and things like that. 33:07.430 --> 33:10.993 [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you track your gravitational pull ideas? 33:11.013 --> 33:15.757 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have an ongoing word file to you, jot them as you, as you. 33:15.997 --> 33:20.181 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an old fashioned writer, my, my, my. 33:20.801 --> 33:25.162 [SPEAKER_01]: obsession and my little pocket obsession if you will is flare colored pens. 33:25.782 --> 33:30.723 [SPEAKER_01]: I buy like a 24 pack and depending on my mood or my situation. 33:30.743 --> 33:41.206 [SPEAKER_01]: I am always, you know, grabbing a flare and a notebook and making, you know, notes about things, whether I'm in the car or whether I'm at the grocery. 33:41.846 --> 33:42.406 [SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't matter. 33:42.486 --> 33:46.007 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always putting something down that connects one thing to another. 33:46.027 --> 33:48.648 [SPEAKER_01]: I am now actually to the point. 33:48.808 --> 33:49.088 [SPEAKER_01]: I have 33:52.390 --> 33:53.851 [SPEAKER_01]: for projects going at the moment. 33:53.951 --> 34:06.021 [SPEAKER_01]: So I now actually print them out on different colored paper just so that my head space when I'm looking at the green I know that's one project and the pink is a different and the lavender is a different idea. 34:08.621 --> 34:31.175 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that you fall down a rabbit hole with one of them, you get some ideas and you're running off with something and I guess that the problem for me is I'm going to get back to that book that's coming out in the fall, you know, to edits on that because, you know, that that's time sense to versus the others, which are just my head has gone off in that direction with an idea or a process. 34:32.605 --> 34:32.965 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever. 34:32.985 --> 34:54.897 [SPEAKER_00]: So in your notebook that you carry to you, say, you know, okay, the, the beach story is going to be written in blue and the tree story is going to be written in green and always just change your pens or do you just sort of use the pen that is inspiring you with that moment and then make yourself notes to figure out where it's going to go. 34:55.358 --> 35:07.233 [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever my my mood at the moment, if it's October, I'm probably using purple or orange and if it's Christmas, you know, a lot of green going in, but also just whatever suits my fancy. 35:07.633 --> 35:09.095 [SPEAKER_01]: It keeps me from getting bored. 35:09.355 --> 35:12.919 [SPEAKER_01]: It keeps me from getting, you know, feeling a little stale. 35:13.080 --> 35:14.922 [SPEAKER_01]: It's there's just it's like back to school. 35:15.062 --> 35:20.244 [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing like a brand new bright colored flare to get your editorial juices going. 35:20.324 --> 35:27.347 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, if I edit through the same document and read over it a couple of times for different things, I'll pick up a different color pen. 35:27.888 --> 35:33.930 [SPEAKER_01]: So if I'm doing a grammar read through or a punctuation read through, I probably will circle in one color. 35:34.391 --> 35:41.314

[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm going through an actually adding text or making changes of a more structural nature, then I'll do it in a different color. 35:41.514 --> 35:44.095 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know what I'm looking at on the page. 35:45.382 --> 35:50.864 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love that you print your different ideas out on different color paper. 35:50.964 --> 35:56.186 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I, I, not talk to somebody who does that, but I think that's fabulous. 35:56.206 --> 36:06.869 [SPEAKER_00]: So you can have like binder clips of different pieces of paper and, and, and, and no, no mentally, I'm going into the purple document. 36:07.009 --> 36:10.010 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what I'm gonna, this is the rabbit hole I'm going down. 36:11.917 --> 36:12.117 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 36:12.477 --> 36:19.080 [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, it's just one of the little things that helps me to bring myself into a different place. 36:19.721 --> 36:20.581 [SPEAKER_01]: Not always easy. 36:20.741 --> 36:26.884 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think I find it as fine as I'm getting older that, you know, keeping track of too many balls does get. 36:27.364 --> 36:34.790 [SPEAKER_01]: does get overwhelming, you know, I have got a second or another cozy series on the one hand. 36:35.350 --> 36:52.543 [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a fantasy mystery on another hand and then there's also, you know, just all kinds of different, you know, very disparate projects that kind of need to be kept in one headspace or 36:53.304 --> 36:55.365 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about the fantasy mystery. 36:55.385 --> 37:03.250 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to tell us about the story, but what's intriguing you about that particular world building, which is very complicated. 37:03.290 --> 37:12.495 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when you're building in whiskey, distilleries, you get tied to somebody, and they could tell you how it works, and what rules are, and you know how this happens. 37:12.856 --> 37:16.098 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're writing fantasy, you're making everything up. 37:16.198 --> 37:21.441 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you're building a world that could be like this world, but has different rules, or I mean, 37:22.241 --> 37:23.983 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a huge project. 37:24.924 --> 37:25.885 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it is different. 37:26.406 --> 37:27.827 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also a part of my life. 37:27.907 --> 37:30.730 [SPEAKER_01]: It's another genre that I particularly like. 37:30.790 --> 37:32.232 [SPEAKER_01]: I do like fantasy novels. 37:33.473 --> 37:37.737 [SPEAKER_01]: I have two girls who are devout D&D cosplayers. 37:37.997 --> 37:39.499 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they do all of that kind of stuff. 37:39.519 --> 37:40.740 [SPEAKER_01]: So that vernacular that. 37:42.622 --> 37:45.364 [SPEAKER_01]: way of looking at the world is, is a part of my life. 37:45.584 --> 37:48.925 [SPEAKER_01]: I've spent a lot of time with them doing that kind of thing. 37:49.025 --> 37:53.608 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just, it's an interesting character

space. 37:54.348 --> 38:00.692 [SPEAKER_01]: It gives you so much more room to explore because you're not even constrained by human. 38:01.312 --> 38:04.254 [SPEAKER_01]: You can go off into all kinds of, you know, time 38:09.136 --> 38:13.239 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, but it's still going to come down to a murder mystery. 38:14.300 --> 38:18.323 [SPEAKER_01]: It's what I like to write or what I'm used to writing, I suppose. 38:19.144 --> 38:25.028 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's got that seed, but I love going cross-genre with things. 38:25.048 --> 38:27.950 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't always work out, but you can try. 38:28.091 --> 38:32.274 [SPEAKER_01]: Publishers aren't always as warm to it, but romanticise is huge. 38:33.034 --> 38:36.437 [SPEAKER_01]: I have every doubt, I mean, I have every expectation, no doubt, 38:37.959 --> 38:41.712 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, a mystery fantasy will also start to become a thing as well. 38:42.033 --> 38:43.217 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah. 38:43.570 --> 38:48.751 [SPEAKER_00]: hear this second person I've talked to in the last couple of months who who is said that very same thing. 38:48.811 --> 38:51.292 [SPEAKER_00]: So I do think it's a trend. 38:51.492 --> 38:59.774 [SPEAKER_00]: People, if people love fantasy, then, you know, they're going to, they're going to read sub-genres within that world. 38:59.914 --> 39:06.256 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the nice thing about that is there's a venn diagram of people who read fantasy and people who read mystery. 39:06.396 --> 39:10.337 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, you can also get them to read this, which is, you know, 39:14.376 --> 39:32.901 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also a very, I won't say easy, but it is a less complicated audience to reach because the fan groups for fantasy tend to cohere into certain areas and you can find them much more easily. 39:33.461 --> 39:36.642 [SPEAKER_01]: You can go to cons and, you know, find 39:37.262 --> 39:48.788 [SPEAKER_01]: thousands and thousands of people who will be receptors for your book and who will enjoy it, versus, you know, if you're going to a mystery conference, it's like, well, is it a thriller conference? 39:48.888 --> 39:50.629 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it a cozy conference? 39:50.689 --> 40:03.495 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it, you know, the fantasy being the core connector gives you just a much broader audience in one place for, in probably, hopefully, much more viable for your marketing. 40:05.099 --> 40:08.841 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so again, you're thinking with your many different thoughts. 40:09.301 --> 40:22.928 [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, as we're talking about this, can you two things I want to talk about when it's community, writing community, but also, you know, what do you, what do we should understood early on? 40:22.988 --> 40:33.373 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you are a great example of somebody who's been on different paths, figuring out different business models, experimenting, trying, you know, not, 40:35.081 --> 40:44.526 [SPEAKER_00]: being willing to mix and match and figure stuff out, and that's something you may not have expected at the beginning of the career. 40:44.586 --> 40:45.586 [SPEAKER_00]: So let's start there. 40:45.606 --> 40:50.629 [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you wish it understood earlier about publishing or writing or both? 40:52.669 --> 40:57.552 [SPEAKER_01]: I think writing never surprised me as much as publishing did. 40:58.707 --> 41:18.315 [SPEAKER_01]: and we've sort of touched on this already, the fact that you are so singularly responsible for getting your work out into the marketplace and for finding your own readers, you know, your publishing company will do a little bit, but it's it's very cursory and it's very quick and it's usually right about the time the books released after that. 41:18.855 --> 41:19.676 [SPEAKER_00]: You're kind of on your own. 41:21.058 --> 41:35.539 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, the conferences and stuff are very valuable, both as an aspiring writer and as an established writer, to go to the things like BoucherCon, to go to Malice Domestic, depending on your, you know, 41:36.159 --> 41:47.126 [SPEAKER_01]: ThrillerCon, whatever it is that you're focusing on as a writer, it's a great sense of community, and obviously sisters in crime is a fabulous sense of community. 41:47.146 --> 41:57.412 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the thing I took from that the most when I started was it's just that lovely sentiment that you're not alone in all of this, that there's other people out there struggling to do what you do. 41:58.952 --> 42:00.633 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a mentor for sisters in crime. 42:01.034 --> 42:04.196 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that that's probably one of the favorite things that I do. 42:04.976 --> 42:16.203 [SPEAKER_01]: Just working with people who are starting out in their career and to be able to provide whatever inside I can provide from what I've done is just a real joy. 42:16.663 --> 42:17.364 [SPEAKER_01]: I love doing that. 42:17.384 --> 42:24.528 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's one of the best things that sisters in crime does is to provide those connections for writers and aspiring writers. 42:28.233 --> 42:33.217 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think that, you know, that for me is the greatest sense of community. 42:33.757 --> 42:45.586 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and a reminder for folks, you know, sisters in crime, me don't need to be published to join, you know, you could just have sort of woken up one day and said, this is on my bucket list. 42:45.626 --> 42:48.708 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to get it checked off and, you know, come in. 42:50.244 --> 42:52.665 [SPEAKER_00]: or any stage of your writing journey. 42:52.865 --> 42:55.906 [SPEAKER_00]: And you are welcome and you'll find your way. 42:56.707 --> 43:05.651 [SPEAKER_00]: Also a shout out to Jen Chow, who is a past president of Sisters and Crime, and the mentorship program was her project, her past president of project. 43:05.731 --> 43:15.615 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we've done it

for three years now, and it's a tremendous success, but it's a success because people like you volunteer to be a mentor. 43:16.115 --> 43:22.441 [SPEAKER_00]: and you know, spend six months talking to somebody and helping them set goals and figure stuff out. 43:25.523 --> 43:38.274 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a hard business to understand, but writing itself is also, you can feel alone and feel like nobody else is going to understand. 43:38.815 --> 43:43.499 [SPEAKER_00]: And in your life, that may be true, but in the world's finding other writers is critical. 43:45.264 --> 43:45.464 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 43:45.884 --> 43:46.505 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 43:47.065 --> 44:11.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's through your library or through, you know, friend groups or reader groups, you know, any of that, I will put in a little plug for a podcast if I may the novel writer, Brianna LeBuscus and Meredith Hamburg, or both sisters and crime members, they do this podcast where they talk every week about different elements of the craft. 44:11.760 --> 44:23.763 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a tremendous podcast for anybody who's starting writing or even those of us who have been doing it for a long time because you just, you laugh sometimes when they go, they're like, oh, God, yes. 44:23.843 --> 44:38.207 [SPEAKER_01]: That is something that we face every day or just the weirdness is, and you see yourself, or you see what you might be in the future, but they also have some very, very brilliant, both of them have done teaching gigs in the past, 44:41.548 --> 45:04.212 [SPEAKER_01]: you know more thriller writers but one's very commercial and one's very literary so you're getting both sides of the spectrum and just an amazing amazing things they'll do a whole piece on editing or on building a story or on voice or but it's it's a lovely discussion and I would strongly recommend folks to wherever you get your podcasts try the novel writers. 45:05.335 --> 45:11.157 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, the novel writers, I will also put that in the show notes, so people can find it. 45:12.458 --> 45:13.718 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was a nice plug. 45:14.278 --> 45:27.023 [SPEAKER_00]: And you also take on interesting projects, you know, and sort of work on ways of meeting with folks and, you know, sort of supporting different things. 45:27.223 --> 45:31.285 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how have my own pod while? 45:32.419 --> 45:36.122 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I also have and talk about your podcast. 45:36.402 --> 45:42.047 [SPEAKER_01]: So my podcast is actually called tranquil tales from Death's Doorstep. 45:42.227 --> 45:45.509 [SPEAKER_01]: It is a sleep story podcast for people who love mysteries. 45:47.051 --> 45:52.135 [SPEAKER_01]: For people who aren't familiar with sleep stories here, they're very benign stories 45:56.419 --> 46:01.225 [SPEAKER_01]: that you can listen to at bedtime and it will just sort of help to love you off to sleep. 46:01.305 --> 46:03.267 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people

love them, the calm out. 46:03.488 --> 46:07.052 [SPEAKER_01]: There's all kinds of resources, although most of them are paid. 46:08.253 --> 46:13.940 [SPEAKER_01]: This is actually a free podcast every week, a new mystery writer puts a piece up. 46:14.718 --> 46:22.501 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, I have to look back through, but I think every one of the mystery authors we have on there is a sisters and cry member. 46:23.161 --> 46:30.924 [SPEAKER_01]: They all write series or standalone mysteries and they do a piece for us that is very atmospheric. 46:30.964 --> 46:37.307 [SPEAKER_01]: It's very high on like details on characters, but not any of the slasher moments. 46:37.747 --> 46:40.409 [SPEAKER_01]: and there's no murder coming through at that time. 46:40.469 --> 47:01.104 [SPEAKER_01]: Nothing that's going to jar you, but it's a lovely way to just kind of meet characters, meet settings, and if you enjoy them, as you're falling asleep, the next day, feel free to go and find that author's book, and you know, add it to your TV read list of things that you will enjoy when you're feeling more in the mood for adventure. 47:01.845 --> 47:03.566 [SPEAKER_01]: But tranquil tales has been a lot of fun. 47:03.586 --> 47:04.807 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm enjoying editing that. 47:06.520 --> 47:22.707 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's such a great idea too, because many of us will listen to a book or something to go to sleep, but having a trusted source where you're not going to have the murder or just as your time. 47:23.227 --> 47:30.250 [SPEAKER_00]: Here close in your eyes, but also what a wonderful way to promote different writers and get folks on. 47:30.330 --> 47:32.551 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it has been a lot of fun. 47:32.591 --> 47:42.015 [SPEAKER_01]: I love there's a website as well where you can go and read a little bit more about the authors and even in the podcast link and it's available wherever you get your podcasts. 47:42.756 --> 47:51.459 [SPEAKER_01]: In the podcast links, you'll have click on so you can go through to authors' websites or to their book links and find out more about them, especially if it's a 47:52.840 --> 47:58.344 [SPEAKER_01]: that appeals to you because we have historical mysteries and we have, you know, all kinds of different ones. 47:58.604 --> 47:59.805 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's it once a month. 48:00.105 --> 48:07.149 [SPEAKER_01]: We also do what we call second Sunday, which is a mystery history lesson. 48:07.230 --> 48:10.732 [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll pull an old old book, something that is with 48:11.132 --> 48:36.080 [SPEAKER_01]: our friends at Project Gutenberg and we'll pull out like I think the first one we did was the mystery of the old clock by Nancy Drew and you know some of those things are very old and quite slow-paced and it's delightful to go to sleep to I think like the whole concept of having stories read to you it takes you back to when you were a child and somebody loved and trusted was reading you a bedtime story dumb. 48:36.465 --> 48:37.907 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's a great idea. 48:37.927 --> 48:46.817 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously work, and it's a passion project, but it's also a unique way of getting authors out there. 48:47.138 --> 48:50.942 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I love the imagination behind it. 48:53.044 --> 48:59.567 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope people listen and give us a like and a follow in the podcast language and novel writers as well. 49:00.427 --> 49:01.828 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, absolutely. 49:02.428 --> 49:04.549 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for a great conversation. 49:04.589 --> 49:06.450 [SPEAKER_00]: This has been terrific. 49:06.630 --> 49:08.671 [SPEAKER_00]: And you have a book coming out this fall. 49:09.391 --> 49:11.972 [SPEAKER_00]: And other projects will be looking forward to. 49:12.072 --> 49:15.574 [SPEAKER_00]: And at conferences, we'll ask you what color that paper was printed on. 49:18.615 --> 49:19.736 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 49:22.155 --> 49:22.658 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you. 49:26.440 --> 49:27.821 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being with us today. 49:28.501 --> 49:31.103 [SPEAKER_00]: Sisters in crime is about community. 49:31.724 --> 49:39.049 [SPEAKER_00]: We were founded to advocate for women crime writers and we continue that mission by fighting for equity and the crime writing community. 49:39.689 --> 49:47.975 [SPEAKER_00]: Sisters in crime is an international inclusive organization for all who write and love crime fiction, mystery, thrillers, and suspense. 49:48.495 --> 49:53.439 [SPEAKER_00]: Join us at sistersincrime.org and make sure you subscribe to this podcast. 49:59.813 --> 50:00.799 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.