Full Transcript for Believing in Your Worth Despite Being Rejected Over 250 Times

really think 10 is the average amount of time that I hear. 04:09.363 --> 04:11.425 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you, I mean, there's less of course. 04:11.545 --> 04:14.688 [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think it takes a while to not only find your voice, 04:15.348 --> 04:16.829 [SPEAKER_00]: but find the right story. 04:17.029 --> 04:19.071 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I finally kind of did. 04:19.831 --> 04:21.312 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was my first agent. 04:21.332 --> 04:22.393 [SPEAKER_00]: I know my second agent. 04:22.633 --> 04:24.194 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you know, it's interesting. 04:24.254 --> 04:31.339 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I had a perception when I was debuting that, oh, one year now, I'm going to have a book a year and I'm going to have the same agent. 04:31.359 --> 04:34.041 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to have the same editor and off I go for the next 50 years. 04:34.181 --> 04:35.342 [SPEAKER_00]: And that really wasn't the case. 04:35.542 --> 04:41.306 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was a very rude awakening for me because I finished my two book contract and they didn't want another one. 04:41.987 --> 04:44.970 [SPEAKER_00]: and I ended up being to find a new agent at one point. 04:45.310 --> 04:58.345 [SPEAKER_00]: My next book deals actually, you know, I went to auction, like, good things happened, but I think it's good to hear, at least I wish I had heard that there's not one straight in narrow path that, you know, just because you get a book deal. 04:59.386 --> 05:06.937 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a business, it's a business first, and you're a part of that business, but you are making a product and you're not a part of their family. 05:07.037 --> 05:08.038 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not their best friend. 05:08.339 --> 05:09.180 [SPEAKER_00]: You're making a product. 05:09.320 --> 05:14.968 [SPEAKER_00]: So for me, the journey took a while and I still have lost to learn and I continue to have lost to learn. 05:16.625 --> 05:39.432 [SPEAKER_01]: I love that because I am always saying there are so many roots to publication for some people very few people it'll happen extremely quickly but for the rest of us I think what it comes down to is stamina and like stubbornness right because it's so easy when a book doesn't do well and you're part ways with your agent and you're part ways with your editor 05:40.092 --> 05:44.774 [SPEAKER_01]: to go, well, okay, I'll try this, I'm clearly not very good or whatever, and to give up. 05:44.934 --> 05:51.938 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are so many writers that come out to the first book and you never hear the second book for this exact reason. 05:52.338 --> 05:55.960 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's some of us who are like to hell with that. 05:56.560 --> 06:07.005 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we kind of use that as motivation or maybe we feel like we need to prove ourselves, like for you, what was the thing that kept you going through all the rejection and the hardships, 06:09.141 --> 06:17.427 [SPEAKER_00]: The biggest change for me professionally was after that initial kind of two-book contract my first deal and the publisher didn't want any more books. 06:17.967 --> 06:21.249 [SPEAKER_00]: I realized that I had taken a lack of mentality. 06:21.409 --> 06:24.171 [SPEAKER_00]: That was a part of being a querying writer. 06:24.211 --> 06:29.995 [SPEAKER_00]: When you've been rejected over 250 times for your art, you are begging to be let through the door. 06:30.355 --> 06:33.297 [SPEAKER_00]: And you will take nearly anything that is offered. 06:33.397 --> 06:36.039 [SPEAKER_00]: And that is not the right attitude to have in publishing unfortunately. 06:36.399 --> 06:42.501 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you have to really be like, this is the best thing I can create and energetically I'm putting it onto the world. 06:42.521 --> 06:45.943 [SPEAKER_00]: The right people will say yes and that's who I'm attracting. 06:46.063 --> 06:47.263 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not desperate. 06:47.383 --> 06:49.464 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not looking for the first yes. 06:49.644 --> 07:00.028 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to say yes just because I think there will be no other guesses and I recognize in myself that I had that lack mentality through a decade of getting nose. 07:00.575 --> 07:03.236 [SPEAKER_00]: on my own fear that I would never get another yes. 07:03.536 --> 07:07.857 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I really did some work and shifted how I looked at it. 07:07.897 --> 07:12.278 [SPEAKER_00]: So when I queried, let's users and then also the bone thief because it was a two book deal. 07:12.699 --> 07:13.799 [SPEAKER_00]: My energy was so different. 07:13.839 --> 07:16.360 [SPEAKER_00]: It was I've written something that I think is wonderful. 07:16.400 --> 07:17.540 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the book I want to read. 07:17.940 --> 07:19.541 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to find an agent who loves it. 07:19.561 --> 07:21.081 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to find the publisher who does. 07:21.261 --> 07:23.702 [SPEAKER_00]: And I got lucky because you know, it ended up going to auction. 07:23.722 --> 07:26.242 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there were six editors in the auction. 07:26.262 --> 07:27.903 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was fantastic. 07:28.343 --> 07:33.168 [SPEAKER_00]: but it was night and day from my debut mindset to when I did it again. 07:33.609 --> 07:38.874 [SPEAKER_00]: After kind of getting kicked around a little bit, but that mindset will not help you. 07:38.934 --> 07:48.404 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to believe in your work because you're going to always believe in it the most and also believe that the right people will be coming in to help you with that work. 07:49.317 --> 07:50.658 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, and you know what? 07:50.978 --> 07:59.822 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm always saying on the podcast it just takes one year, but what you've said here is so important just because it takes one year doesn't mean you should jump at your first year. 07:59.902 --> 08:05.065 [SPEAKER_01]: Also like in it to dating, you know, when one

person wants you someone else wants you and so it goes. 08:05.105 --> 08:08.166 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't need text one year, but it has to be the right yes. 08:08.586 --> 08:15.229 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's no reason for you to jump absolutely at the first year just out of sense of desperation. 08:18.591 --> 08:29.440 [SPEAKER_01]: full a lot of our listeners because I think we are, we just like, oh my god, I just need one years and I'm going to take whatever I can get and you know that's not necessarily the right people for you. 08:30.101 --> 08:36.907 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right and I also think I have also noticed in my own work when you get a guess there's going to be other yeses. 08:36.967 --> 08:40.129 [SPEAKER_00]: You finally kind of gotten to that place that is different 08:43.612 --> 09:00.813 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think part of it is when you start getting the yes, it means you're on to something and you need to believe in your work even more and believe that you really need to find the right agent, the right deal, the right publisher, and push yourself to, I think be brave and to have courage and also to like, it's very difficult to listen to instincts. 09:01.273 --> 09:05.255 [SPEAKER_00]: when you're talking about a dream, because everything is on the line is what it feels like. 09:05.655 --> 09:07.636 [SPEAKER_00]: But we have to really listen to our instincts. 09:07.656 --> 09:13.739 [SPEAKER_00]: We have to believe that if something doesn't feel quite right, certainly do research, certainly talk to other people. 09:13.779 --> 09:19.823 [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think in this business, you can feel and sense if someone really has the best intentions for your work. 09:19.863 --> 09:24.625 [SPEAKER_00]: And so trusting yourself in your writing, but also in the business side, I think, is important to us. 09:25.279 --> 09:49.793 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, hugely so and I think often, you know, especially when it comes time to break up with your agent, that's always a big one because you feel like a sense of loyalty, you like you the first person to have said yes to me or you the first person that I said yes to and so I feel loyal to you and sometimes the relationship works for a while, sometimes you realize afterwards, okay, it didn't actually work because you didn't know what you wanted. 09:50.273 --> 09:52.475 [SPEAKER_01]: a friend who you didn't specify that up front. 09:53.015 --> 10:08.187 [SPEAKER_01]: And so also getting to the point where you've got to say, okay, this is not the right relationship for me, or this isn't the right editor for me, or the right publisher, you know, again trusting in that gut and saying, I know I can find a home that's going to be the right home for me. 10:08.955 --> 10:27.743 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think it's also dangerous because somewhere in the ether we absorb that our agent's going to be our best friend or agent's going to be our psychologist or they're the gatekeeper and I hope this isn't sound like demeaning, but I think you should think of your agent like a real estate agent that's what they are to you they are experts they know their stuff. 10:28.183 --> 10:31.067 [SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, your real estate agent is not your best friend. 10:31.147 --> 10:43.962 [SPEAKER_00]: Their job is to sell your house, and maybe they did a great job on your first house, but the next house, that's not their market, so I think thinking of it more as a business colleague, someone who you are respectful to, you're honest with, you 10:44.863 --> 10:49.845 [SPEAKER_00]: financial responsibility, but it's not the same as your best friend. 10:49.925 --> 10:51.245 [SPEAKER_00]: It is not a family member. 10:51.665 --> 11:01.328 [SPEAKER_00]: And to just treat the relationship professionally, honestly, and not get more emotionally involved, I think is the best way for me, anyway, and a relationship. 11:02.482 --> 11:08.725 [SPEAKER_01]: some of the best advice we've heard on the podcast people write it down and highlight it and keep coming back to that. 11:09.146 --> 11:22.933 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so about the book itself, I'm going to ask Vanessa to please read, there is a sneaky prologue, it does not say a prologue, but it is 100% a sneaky prologue, and then the first two pages of chapter one. 11:23.913 --> 11:26.114 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is a sneaky prologue, right? 11:26.475 --> 11:26.735 [SPEAKER_00]: So, 11:27.562 --> 11:33.323 [SPEAKER_00]: Private Journal of the Warden, year of our Lord, 1675, Naragansetland, Rhode Island. 11:34.304 --> 11:38.005 [SPEAKER_00]: I never meant to chase her, yet I did not slow at her screams. 11:38.685 --> 11:44.326 [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to cry out, run from those men, but all she heard was my own steps of pursuit. 11:45.126 --> 11:46.967 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that why she left from my grasp? 11:47.592 --> 11:53.116 [SPEAKER_00]: is that why she called for her God, who her people say made man of wood and must have cursed her heart to stone? 11:53.917 --> 11:55.118 [SPEAKER_00]: Is that why she sank? 11:55.959 --> 11:58.060 [SPEAKER_00]: Swallowed hole by the land of her people. 11:58.761 --> 12:02.024 [SPEAKER_00]: The land we have claimed under the watchful eye of providence. 12:02.864 --> 12:07.448 [SPEAKER_00]: I pray no other will take her, but my men hunger almost as much as our God. 12:08.269 --> 12:13.553 [SPEAKER_00]: Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, but there is power in what remains of the vessel. 12:17.745 --> 12:24.167 [SPEAKER_00]: Chapter 1, Camp co-hog, South County, Rhode Island, unseated near Gansetland, August 2008. 12:25.507 --> 12:26.988 [SPEAKER_00]: Someone is hunting me. 12:27.808 --> 12:35.311 [SPEAKER_00]: With each step I take on the dirt path, there is a distinct crunch behind me as if someone is camouflaging their movements with mine. 12:36.031 --> 12:39.492 [SPEAKER_00]: I drop against the stone wall I've been following and scan the path. 12:40.172 --> 12:43.553 [SPEAKER_00]: There

are only silhouettes of trees in these dark and unfamiliar woods. 12:47.147 --> 12:55.214 [SPEAKER_00]: I could run back to my truck, or turn to my quiet house, slip into bed next to my sleeping wife, who has no idea I'm about to break the law. 12:56.055 --> 12:58.717 [SPEAKER_00]: The most pathetic lies are the ones we tell ourselves. 12:59.618 --> 13:02.921 [SPEAKER_00]: Remaining in the shadows may hide me, but it cannot keep me safe. 13:03.502 --> 13:10.448 [SPEAKER_00]: There is more than being a woman alone in the woods because my real enemy is time, more specifically, the eminent dawn. 13:11.022 --> 13:11.703 [SPEAKER_00]: I got a move. 13:12.324 --> 13:16.690 [SPEAKER_00]: Stepping a soft as I can, I approach the oversized iron gate until I confirm my fear. 13:17.291 --> 13:17.852 [SPEAKER_00]: It's locked. 13:18.833 --> 13:21.517 [SPEAKER_00]: A lone security light illuminates letters in a metal arc. 13:22.018 --> 13:22.819 [SPEAKER_00]: Camp co-hog. 13:23.513 --> 13:29.296 [SPEAKER_00]: A place I'd barely known existed until a few hours ago, certainly not summer I was planning on breaking an entering. 13:30.037 --> 13:35.020 [SPEAKER_00]: I hurry toward a shape in the distance that could almost be open arms, but really, it's a maple tree. 13:35.840 --> 13:37.761 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't wait to listen for advancing foot steps. 13:38.222 --> 13:40.283 [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, I pull myself onto the lowest branch. 13:40.883 --> 13:45.566 [SPEAKER_00]: The tree eases some tension as if I'm hidden, and I climb higher, another branch, than another. 13:45.946 --> 13:48.468 [SPEAKER_00]: At least ten feet in the air, I can see the top of the wall. 13:48.988 --> 13:51.990 [SPEAKER_00]: I scan the ground and whoever was hunting is quiet and still. 13:52.770 --> 13:53.551 [SPEAKER_00]: I just my way. 13:53.951 --> 13:58.114 [SPEAKER_00]: I reach toward the wall, but there's a crack under my boot, and my full center of gravity drops. 13:58.655 --> 14:02.998 [SPEAKER_00]: My arm slam into the limb and the bark cuts my skin as I clean tight despite the sharp pain. 14:03.718 --> 14:04.479 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, shit. 14:05.279 --> 14:09.843 [SPEAKER_00]: My legs fail as I search for another branch, but there's nothing but air between me and the ten foot drop. 14:10.323 --> 14:14.486 [SPEAKER_00]: I extend my shaking leg and my foot barely smacks the edge of the wall before returning under me. 14:15.027 --> 14:17.969 [SPEAKER_00]: I scoot and scrape along the branch to get a few inches closer. 14:18.409 --> 14:21.131 [SPEAKER_00]: When I stretch my leg again, the toe of my boot reaches the top 14:22.407 --> 14:26.569 [SPEAKER_00]: I do the same with the other foot, using everything left to push the branch and let go. 14:27.250 --> 14:31.372 [SPEAKER_00]: I nearly topple over, but managed to land on my ass, straddling the wall like a horse. 14:32.032 --> 14:35.774 [SPEAKER_00]: I dip my fingers into the hard edge by forcing myself to breathe deeply. 14:35.794

--> 14:37.295 [SPEAKER_00]: I made it. 14:38.155 --> 14:43.478 [SPEAKER_00]: Gritting up at the stars, I'm relieved, though the only witness is to what my wife would certainly call foolishness. 14:43.979 --> 14:48.721 [SPEAKER_00]: My breath goes slower and finally, steady, matching the calm night sounds of frogs and crickets. 14:52.387 --> 14:53.908 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, there we go. 14:53.948 --> 14:55.729 [SPEAKER_01]: So such a brilliant start. 14:55.769 --> 15:08.374 [SPEAKER_01]: So just before you and I started recording You mentioned that this wasn't your original first chapter and so for me It's so interesting because I read this and I was like what a brilliant pace to start because you could start earlier 15:08.954 --> 15:32.994 [SPEAKER_01]: when she gets the text or she gets the message right and you can show her sneaking out and then doing this but you throw a straight into the tension we are not 100% sure of what's going on but we don't need to be just through her fear and her adrenaline we're already like on her side we're attached to her so take us through what that original first chapter look like 15:35.466 --> 15:42.729 [SPEAKER_00]: So the original first chapter was more born out of my insecurity at this being a sequel of sorts. 15:42.969 --> 15:46.851 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these days, every editor says, right, it like a standalone. 15:48.152 --> 15:48.472 [SPEAKER_00]: But... 15:48.968 --> 16:18.133 [SPEAKER_00]: it the book before it blood sisters right picks up a right after this book and so I was like oh my god I have to tell readers everything that happened in blood sisters basically and I had so said isn't an archaeologist and she at the end of blood sisters you make some choices that get her in a little bit of trouble and so I'd opened with her basically being in trouble begin festegated by two like BIA officers who are investigating her and what she's done they actually come in later watch later but in the original they were right there at the beginning 16:19.033 --> 16:31.751 [SPEAKER_00]: yelling at her and it's like an interrogation room style and anyway and I wrote it and my editor read it and she was like no this is not it and I was like oh okay and then when I took it out which I would encourage if you're stuck 16:33.607 --> 16:41.096 [SPEAKER_00]: like completely remove something and just like, okay, if you could just start over, which is very freeing and terrifying, what would it be? 16:41.696 --> 16:46.462 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, well, the heart of this book is not her being interrogated by two BIA officers. 16:46.762 --> 16:48.945 [SPEAKER_00]: The heart of this book are these stolen remains. 16:49.565 --> 16:50.766 [SPEAKER_00]: and it happens at this camp. 16:51.046 --> 16:52.767 [SPEAKER_00]: So like let's just throw her into that. 16:53.047 --> 16:58.949 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I had, and I wanted there to be more tension than Justin Archaeologist walking into a scene. 16:59.090 --> 17:00.730 [SPEAKER_00]:

I wanted her to be someone after her. 17:01.090 --> 17:07.473 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I wanted it to be her doing something a little bit risky, which is like braiding entering, because it's a thriller. 17:07.553 --> 17:12.136 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the promise of the premise is that you're going to hopefully want to find out what happens next. 17:12.176 --> 17:14.697 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just kind of went for it with that opening 17:16.581 --> 17:27.268 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that you revised that and I love that you were open to that and I love the suggestion that when you Not sure just take something up because then it gives you the freedom because I think a lot of the times what 17:28.667 --> 17:41.037 [SPEAKER_01]: Fresh straighters is that we've gotten to a certain point and it's 50,000 words and you've totally committed yourself to this and you like, oh my god, if I have to take this out, then I have to take this out and I have to take this out, but often it's like 17:48.703 --> 17:50.646 [SPEAKER_01]: a more propulsive place to stop. 17:51.146 --> 18:01.099 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I encourage writers to move those scene cards around, have the scene cards, move them around, move the order around, see how it affects your story. 18:01.239 --> 18:06.306 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before we move on to the next question, I just want to take a break for a word from our sponsors. 18:08.700 --> 18:22.663 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so yeah, in terms of writing a series, that is the issue because it's been a while since the first people read that book because publishing moves so slow and issues are publishing at a very quick rate. 18:22.863 --> 18:23.804 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a while. 18:23.884 --> 18:29.845 [SPEAKER_01]: So even people who read the first one are going to have read many books since and are like, okay, what's happening. 18:30.185 --> 18:36.967 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there'll be people who never read the first one and you pick up the second one and don't want to put it down by going, oh, I don't know what the hell's going on. 18:39.027 --> 18:56.592 [SPEAKER_01]: So there is that balancing act of starting with an inciting incident that makes sense to the story, making a proposal moving forward, but still putting in those little clues so that whether you read the first book or not you still understand what the hell is going on. 18:57.112 --> 18:59.973 [SPEAKER_01]: So how does that calibration work for you? 19:00.073 --> 19:01.114 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it instinctive? 19:01.194 --> 19:02.574 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it something you are bait to read? 19:02.614 --> 19:05.555 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it like, oh no, you've told us this before, how does it work? 19:06.952 --> 19:34.270 [SPEAKER_00]: I definitely look at it like overwrite it at the beginning and then I'm so kind of right right down what you think you really need and then in revision you will need 10% of them in my first several drafts I give myself a lot of grace I'm an overwriter and so I

really try hard to let that process go and then you can go back and see what you really need because I initially obviously wait over wrote that at the 19:34.750 --> 19:35.511 [SPEAKER_00]: after that thrown out. 19:35.572 --> 19:42.281 [SPEAKER_00]: But then even in the next chapter, after this opening chapter, where Sid goes home, you see characters that are very important in blood sisters. 19:42.421 --> 19:46.086 [SPEAKER_00]: And I initially had way overwritten, again, who they were, why they were there. 19:46.446 --> 19:48.088 [SPEAKER_00]: And at the end of it, I can picture it. 19:48.108 --> 19:49.751 [SPEAKER_00]: There's, I think, two paragraphs. 19:50.051 --> 19:51.273 [SPEAKER_00]: And the line is something like, 19:51.713 --> 20:06.459 [SPEAKER_00]: They're connected by murder and I explain these two murders that happen because that's sort of why these people are in her home And that's it like I don't even know that I mentioned birth sister, which is the heart of blood sisters in the both these like they don't talk or anything So I think 20:07.422 --> 20:13.205 [SPEAKER_00]: you have expectations of all have to explain everything, although need to know so much, but the end of the day they really didn't. 20:13.305 --> 20:14.545 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think she talks about her parents. 20:14.605 --> 20:15.926 [SPEAKER_00]: She really mentions Oklahoma. 20:16.386 --> 20:21.528 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think you have a front and center novel and your reader is signed up for that experience. 20:21.948 --> 20:28.271 [SPEAKER_00]: So it is only the most essential pieces that you weave into those other books. 20:29.094 --> 20:47.711 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's advice for all writers, even if it's your debut novel, right, because that's the biggest mistake I see writers making is that they want to load up a backstory and exposition and then want to read it to fully understand things and for me because I didn't read blood sisters, this was the first one I read. 20:48.532 --> 21:07.080 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, this is so interesting, this dynamic is so interesting why these people staying here, what happened to this person, why does she feel so much guilt and it was so intriguing and I didn't need to know any of that to completely fall in love with it and also because I look at your main character said and 21:07.460 --> 21:09.701 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like a bit of an outsider, right? 21:09.801 --> 21:13.202 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know if she distances herself or other people distance her. 21:13.583 --> 21:15.323 [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't forget herself for mistakes. 21:15.363 --> 21:16.384 [SPEAKER_01]: She's made in the past. 21:16.464 --> 21:31.670 [SPEAKER_01]: She's very hard on herself, but this such a vulnerability that from the very beginning, you know, whether she's been hunted or whether she's with her family afterwards, you're like, okay, I can totally get on board with this person. 21:31.710 --> 21:34.851 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't

know what that'll happen to her, but like, I'm here for it. 21:38.145 --> 21:47.132 [SPEAKER_00]: In the first book, Blood Sisters, you see this sort of terrible crime that happened when she was young, which is actually based on a real crime that happened right outside May 10 on, right after my senior year of high school. 21:47.493 --> 21:52.056 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that trauma very much is her arc in blood sisters. 21:52.477 --> 21:57.781 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not like you turned the trauma light off and you're all good, you know, she's still grappling with some of that. 21:58.261 --> 22:01.304 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when I was creating her even initially, 22:01.904 --> 22:04.506 [SPEAKER_00]: My thinking was, you know, I want to see that gross. 22:04.546 --> 22:06.107 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to sort of feel her resiliency. 22:06.127 --> 22:09.950 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to see a person who was victimized become more. 22:10.210 --> 22:14.413 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that is a real theme, generally with women, with an indigenous communities. 22:14.833 --> 22:17.555 [SPEAKER_00]: But I agree with you that she is a little bit of a loan all. 22:17.815 --> 22:27.282 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember when I was first thinking about her, the line of her kind of characterization was that Sid Walker is a person who prefers trees over people. 22:29.448 --> 22:31.992 [SPEAKER_00]: has trouble in her relationships. 22:32.693 --> 22:34.115 [SPEAKER_00]: And she likes to be outside. 22:34.155 --> 22:35.176 [SPEAKER_00]: She's an archaeologist. 22:35.216 --> 22:36.498 [SPEAKER_00]: She works for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. 22:36.538 --> 22:37.319 [SPEAKER_00]: She's Cherokee. 22:37.799 --> 22:41.244 [SPEAKER_00]: And to me, I just thought that was so interesting because I'm not necessarily that way. 22:41.685 --> 22:44.629 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought I want to create this character who is really different than me. 22:45.129 --> 22:45.230 [SPEAKER_00]: And 22:45.991 --> 22:54.862 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're creating conflict, which basically most interaction she has with people are as interconflict for her, you create tension and as a writer you are always looking for conflict. 22:54.902 --> 23:04.354 [SPEAKER_00]: Like if she was like a very bubbly outgoing personable thriller, you know, main character, that could be fun, but it would be such a different book because in these interactions she's trying to navigate 23:05.130 --> 23:12.795 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, how to get her way, but also avoid people and also sort of do right by her code and her sense of justice. 23:13.335 --> 23:17.297 [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's finding those places of conflict within your character. 23:17.317 --> 23:20.079 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's taking the harder road creatively. 23:20.659 --> 23:23.621 [SPEAKER_00]: Really, I think lens to something more interesting on the page. 23:24.490 --> 23:38.315 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that in a conflict in terms of morally ethically, this is what I want

to do, but I've got to, you know, what's the word that she uses because she likens it to a story, the trickster. 23:39.140 --> 23:45.626 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it a trickster, yes, which is in a lot of indigenous and other cultures, too, but this a shape shifter. 23:46.267 --> 23:53.494 [SPEAKER_00]: And Cherokee culture originally was sort of a playful character who taught silly lessons, you know, esoph slave, well kind of thing. 23:53.855 --> 23:58.840 [SPEAKER_00]: But then after the trailer tears, it became a much darker figure, which also sort of worked with the narrative. 23:59.460 --> 23:59.761 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 23:59.941 --> 24:02.484 [SPEAKER_00]: And books themselves can sort of be tricksters, too. 24:03.124 --> 24:10.032 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I love to have she was aware of that story and trying to incorporate that into the way that she approached things. 24:10.413 --> 24:13.676 [SPEAKER_01]: And there was always that in the conflict and anyone can relate to that. 24:13.816 --> 24:16.259 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know very few people who feel 24:17.143 --> 24:20.185 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so it is with themselves in the world that they don't have this. 24:20.625 --> 24:25.129 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's another way a shortcut fold the reader to get on board with the main character. 24:25.529 --> 24:35.036 [SPEAKER_01]: Something you said earlier, and I was thinking to your original book which I didn't write, and I was like, and I don't want to give too much weight, but I assume that 24:36.407 --> 24:39.949 [SPEAKER_01]: how that ended must have in a certain way been a happy ending, right? 24:40.109 --> 24:44.331 [SPEAKER_01]: Because she got what you wanted and they must be a happy ending to that. 24:44.832 --> 24:53.996 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like we've become obsessed with happy endings and I don't know if it's because of fairy tales or because fairy tales have happy endings because that's just human psychology. 24:54.497 --> 24:59.820 [SPEAKER_01]: But for me, I'm always like a story that is ended happily is just a story that has an 25:06.303 --> 25:06.983 [SPEAKER_01]: for six months. 25:07.263 --> 25:09.364 [SPEAKER_01]: And they will find this person, right? 25:10.024 --> 25:13.205 [SPEAKER_01]: And everyone celebrates and it's great and they found the person. 25:13.305 --> 25:16.866 [SPEAKER_01]: And for me it's always like, but what is that person's like after that? 25:17.307 --> 25:24.989 [SPEAKER_01]: Because of the trauma that they've been through and you don't see that you just see the celebration and of course it's wonderful that they were returned and that they're alive. 25:25.349 --> 25:30.371 [SPEAKER_01]: But for me it's always like, okay, what is that trauma going to do to them for the rest of their lives? 25:30.611 --> 25:33.612 [SPEAKER_01]: And as I started reading your book, I was looking at her sister, 25:34.512 --> 25:43.878 [SPEAKER_01]: And the sister's daughter and just being like, oh my goodness, like, what is that

trauma going to look like for the rest of their lives and and you really explore that so well. 25:44.518 --> 25:52.783 [SPEAKER_00]: So that character Luna has been through this terrible ordeal, we're two basically a prisoner as we read about happens to women for 15 years so terrible man. 25:53.483 --> 25:56.987 [SPEAKER_00]: And I, of course, wasn't going to make it to where she's just fine at home. 25:57.007 --> 25:59.149 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's an interesting and not accurate. 25:59.289 --> 26:05.995 [SPEAKER_00]: But I also thought, you know, just because something terrible has happened to you, that doesn't mean there aren't still drinks that come out of that. 26:06.395 --> 26:09.738 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, my God, she's the right 15 years with this monster. 26:10.098 --> 26:18.765 [SPEAKER_00]: Think about all of the skills she has from negotiation to adaptability to living on the land, as well as just like a fearlessness of I'm going to live another day. 26:19.186 --> 26:30.415 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was for me kind of a pleasure to think about how I could make a character that had been so victimized by a terrible person and make her just fascinating like she was 26:33.898 --> 26:49.485 [SPEAKER_00]: gave people a little bit of hope or at least connection to see that a crime against you doesn't define you and in fact, you know, there's those terrible things can be turned into other things that you use to your benefit. 26:49.805 --> 26:56.448 [SPEAKER_00]: And so writing Luna not only because she was a fascinating character to write, but also just that message resonated a lot for me. 26:57.135 --> 26:58.636 [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, yeah, I love that. 26:59.056 --> 27:07.581 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll still go turn the questions in the out of time so I'm gonna just ask you for one more, you know, for most writers we write to entertain. 27:07.922 --> 27:11.063 [SPEAKER_01]: We get people to turn pages and that's kind of what we have to do. 27:11.704 --> 27:14.746 [SPEAKER_01]: Your writing has to do so much more. 27:15.346 --> 27:19.089 [SPEAKER_01]: because it almost needs to educate, right? 27:19.609 --> 27:21.330 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's sitting the record straight. 27:22.111 --> 27:27.235 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's making people reframe things that they thought they knew and making them stop and go, huh? 27:27.615 --> 27:28.716 [SPEAKER_01]: Never thought of it that way. 27:29.236 --> 27:33.059 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's such an additional responsibility besides entertaining. 27:33.139 --> 27:35.261 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a huge responsibility. 27:35.641 --> 27:42.086 [SPEAKER_01]: So again, how do you balance the storyteller who just wants to entertain with the person who I assume 27:45.328 --> 27:52.292 [SPEAKER_01]: because also everything I write comes from a place of rage and I imagine that that must be true for a lot of your work as well. 27:52.372 --> 27:54.673 [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you how do you balance that? 27:55.454 --> 28:05.479 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah so for these books in particular sharing Indigenous history is really important and I feel like anytime I sit down to write I'm chasing a feeling. 28:05.599 --> 28:06.920 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm chasing a question. 28:07.080 --> 28:10.482 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sort of desperate to understand something and 28:14.462 --> 28:39.637 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe rage is the word, but I more to meet with this burning need to understand why it is colonialism frames the whole way that we see our world and I live in New England now, I'm originally from Oklahoma, but I live in the heart of colonial America and I see it everywhere and I just want to understand this and I create a society that sort of mirrors other kind of colonial types of societies as a sandbox for me to play around 28:40.137 --> 29:00.154 [SPEAKER_00]: with these things that are just fundamental to how we are taught, how we see the world, and so I think it was this bright and burning need, as well as to think about big issues around like graves protection and indigenous remains and this is a larger question of why is it that we allow 29:01.335 --> 29:26.936 [SPEAKER_00]: Remains from Egypt to indigenous people to be put on museum shelves and essentially stolen from where they are buried like why is that okay, and that is a really core point in indigenous communities because so many things have been stolen from us and particularly funerary objects and remains are I mean, again, I'm in the east coast, which is littered with these little liberal arts colleges that are full of indigenous bones hair, 29:27.933 --> 29:32.654 [SPEAKER_00]: funerary objects, it is shocking how many things are still on those shelves. 29:32.834 --> 29:34.574 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I guess rage is all right. 29:34.594 --> 29:35.955 [SPEAKER_00]: You can see me kidding activated. 29:36.295 --> 29:41.196 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just like, so the only way I know how to figure that out is to write a thriller about it. 29:43.336 --> 29:49.298 [SPEAKER_00]: And to talk to people and to think and to feel and to create characters to explore on both sides of the issue. 29:49.978 --> 29:51.258 [SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully I come out 29:52.343 --> 29:53.465 [SPEAKER_00]: understanding it a little better. 29:53.545 --> 29:59.031 [SPEAKER_00]: I think in the authors know, in the bone thief, I'm sort of like, I don't understand it not much better. 29:59.452 --> 30:02.456 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I still feel uncomfortable when I see a money at a museum. 30:02.616 --> 30:03.857 [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of think that's wrong. 30:04.238 --> 30:10.586 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think we need to be talking about some of these things that have been accepted for a really long time because maybe they're not okay. 30:11.211 --> 30:22.438 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and this is where the value in this kind of book, especially book clubs, you know, because I find my first two books are going to be to a ton of a ton of book clubs. 30:23.139 --> 30:26.541 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, those two books were about apartheid, in South Africa, etc. 30:26.661 --> 30:26.781 [SPEAKER_01]: And, 30:28.322 --> 30:49.507 [SPEAKER_01]: very difficult conversations had to be heard from all sides and it helped me realize a lot of stuff but it also helped I think a lot of the people I speak to had helped reframe the way they'd seen it as well and for I must say for me this reframe so much for me you know I am now Canadian I've been Canadian for eight years 30:49.927 --> 30:52.069 [SPEAKER_01]: but you know, this still so much for me to learn. 30:52.650 --> 30:59.997 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this was one of those books that was like so propulsive, so entertaining, but I was stopping the whole time and going, oh shit, yeah, that's so true. 31:00.017 --> 31:00.998 [SPEAKER_01]: I never thought of it that way. 31:01.398 --> 31:05.622 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, for a writer to educate, entertain, 31:06.403 --> 31:17.593 [SPEAKER_01]: still have like social commentary but not weigh it down or make the reader feel like they're being elected is incredibly difficult and you did such an amazing amazing job with that Vanessa. 31:17.653 --> 31:19.875 [SPEAKER_01]: So just thank you for an incredible book. 31:20.936 --> 31:21.656 [SPEAKER_00]: That means so much. 31:22.097 --> 31:26.040 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm such a fan of your books as well as you and this incredible podcast. 31:26.060 --> 31:27.421 [SPEAKER_00]: So I will take that with me. 31:27.461 --> 31:28.282 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much. 31:29.037 --> 31:29.638 [SPEAKER_01]: amazing. 31:29.698 --> 31:31.719 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm holding up the bounty. 31:31.779 --> 31:34.902 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, we're linking to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. 31:35.222 --> 31:40.626 [SPEAKER_01]: If you get it there, you support an independent bookstore and you support the podcast at the same time. 31:40.947 --> 31:46.892 [SPEAKER_01]: And remember that when you find a favorite author, go back and look at their backlist and dive into that as well. 31:47.272 --> 31:49.153 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have to speak to you again soon, Vanessa. 31:50.234 --> 31:50.935 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 31:51.654 --> 31:53.537 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's it for today's episode. 31:53.918 --> 31:55.681 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show. 31:55.941 --> 31:57.444 [SPEAKER_01]: In the meantime, keep at it. 31:57.744 --> 32:00.048 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, it just takes one yes.