This episode is about the rise and rise of (in my opinion) the best podcast app available - and it was built right here in Adelaide!  It's a story of how a couple of Adelaide guys who quit their day jobs, developed a killer-app and ended up winning a Google design award against billion-dollar competition.


We cover lot of topics through their journey.  Some of my favourites include:

-Just because you're RISK ADVERSE doesn't mean you can't be a successful Entrepreneur.

-Why an advertising campaign without STRATEGY is a waste of time and money.

-When to move your business from "side-hack while working full time" to "make the leap to BACK YOURSELF and your business idea".

-The challenges (& late nights) of negotiating a contract with an OVERSEAS BUYER.


You can find Pocket Casts on Twitter @pocketcasts.  If you're not listening to this podcast using Pocket Casts, download it today on Apple App Store or Google Play Store.

Don’t forget to tell us what you think of the podcast – rate us or provide comments in your Podcast app, via Instagram/Twitter/Facebook, or send us an email [email protected]



#pocketcasts @pocketcasts #innovation #appdesign #appdevelopment #podcast #podcasts southaustralia #adelaide #entrepreneur #theselfmadetheory #google #serial #shiftyjelly #iphone #Appstore #googleplaystore




00:00:17hi welcome back to the podcast this is been Campbell and this is the self might theory this episode is about the Roslyn Roz selfie my opinion the best podcast app it's currently available out in the market and it was built right here in Adelaide is the story of
00:00:34a couple of allied guys he quit the dye jobs after developing a very successful lap and decided that that we're going to go full time and I ended up winning type Google does on a ward against billion dollar competition it's a fantastic story about how you take your
00:00:50side heck business while you still working full time and sell it to a large I've essays conglomerate enjoy welcome Russell to the self my theory %HESITATION thank you for them we've been trying to get this together for a little while we have family and now I sort of
00:01:13understand what press we couldn't have done this a six months ago but it's %HESITATION it's great to finally be here I mean you'll still your corporate headquarters yeah technically so I guess we'll get get into that later in the broadcast but this is the at the outlet has
00:01:25quickly and I think what was it a good stuff all right so you have it gives you a lot of peach what I'm gonna give this to you in two parts are gonna give elevator pitch that we used to give to people and the one we're giving people
00:01:36now I guess say previously was that would literally trying to build the world's best podcast plan and I know that sounds really lofty but that that was our ambition right we want to be the best %HESITATION podcast player listlessness I'm the new one is when I try to
00:01:48build the world's best podcasting platform and I know that sounds like a weed distinction but it's now %HESITATION we're still catering to listeners but will system to think about produces now lucky self like what it produces Nate %HESITATION kind of tools that we offer them a kind of
00:02:00things could we could we do to help them out so that's that's and you focus I guess Nicole okay so you junior you will getting to where you are today a little bit lighter bottles we waited this whole stopped because it's a really good story and I think
00:02:15there's probably a lot of people who have fooled you know like you did and you really Dyson maybe have not gone out and %HESITATION and stepped out but %HESITATION yeah what is will stop yeah this is this is an interesting story I guess so that it will happen
00:02:28is in two thousand seven we most of us know the first off I came out so Steve Jobs got up on stage and he's like I have this new thing it's an intimate internet communicator it's a telecommunications device it's a an old empire think with these other thing
00:02:40he's like look it's all in one device and I kind of looked in that hospital that is really interesting so %HESITATION I rang up my brother in law who is known for having like a bit of money behind him like Hey there's none of these in a stray
00:02:49like let's figure out some way to import stuff and he was came his like if we can figure out how to you know and put some into the country so some keep some from ourselves a big right so I'm sitting there on the couch this is about three
00:02:59months after the launch to me sitting there in Australia playing with these new often things and it I know it sounds hyperbolic but it was a magical moment right you like this is going to transform a lot of things in it I don't pretend like I had some
00:03:10massive business insight into you know this is going to be the the future of %HESITATION what I did it but you can just tell playing with this thing that was something different and that pretty soon %HESITATION telephones are going to you know look like this so fast forward
00:03:21to two thousand night %HESITATION apple launched an app so they like you know he developed as he's a a tool kit and you can actually for the first time I'm deploy application straight to a phone and the reason that was interesting is previously to that %HESITATION it's good
00:03:32for carry a you had to go through the actual people who made the finals also contracted the sun it was really hot as a developer to ever get anything on to look %HESITATION telephone and so I looked at that a Mike that's interesting but I'm busy at the
00:03:44time I was working as a as an enterprise Java developer you know forty forty plus hours a week and that just wasn't time for this sort of thing so anyway I found myself on the into suckle a select a plan to soccer quite a bit and also the
00:03:56food is really shop pain in my leg like someone to kick me really how to the back of the leg and I turned around to sort of yell at the person behind me like you know what to do that for us we know and then Michael this is
00:04:05weird and I realized %HESITATION which is a pay and he was like yeah I used after Kelly's tendons and like how could you know and he's like well just put your finger down here feel this and with that sort of really hot by and sort of feeling you
00:04:17get at the bottom you like there's nothing that Mike okay that's what I've done and so %HESITATION having done that now it's eight weeks of not being able to walk around so my employer since my computer out to you %HESITATION behind this and you know my stuff and
00:04:28suddenly what I find is your home you have to get all these meetings that way I can suddenly got some hands free right you just sitting there and I finished my work in four five ounce Mike what went in and then a rented like this this is the
00:04:39kind of thing and come out so download it I played around with it and I think you know if you as a day so here in there took me four months to make a sound board up and that sounds you know really silly but what I see so
00:04:49it's a Sam whatever yes and I imagine looking out for kids we get a picture of a cow and you press the cow and the guys munis is the stupidest thing in the world drop out I put this in the store from I think a dollar well maybe
00:04:59two dollars a pop and all of a sudden my two and a half grand so in this ridiculously stupid up to to the world I'm like you know what maybe my says something here so I am I going to touch with one of my friends and us I'm
00:05:11like let's go swimming or interesting right with wet that point we've been doing develop for I don't know and use eight Mike assembled up is not really like the the pinnacle of flex of his discussion and we decide to go to weather app so we built this is
00:05:22trying to weather app we spent a few months on that %HESITATION we released to remember this for the rest of the stores so why the weather coming from sample to you whether at yeah it's a bit of a weekly business so it was literally we were looking at
00:05:34the off line and trying to figure out what was missing and the thing that was missing was accurate strand weather up because you look at their predictions and I'll be like sunny in fifteen actually it was raining and twenty three like well that's that's not even close like
00:05:45it's not even in the Sime ample punk and so we thought literally for ourselves it might be for other people like maybe there's some interest in actually getting accurate you know with the from our bureau from mineralogy and we looked at the data sources there for at the
00:05:57time like this seems like something we can sort of pull off and the other thing that sort of worked into this was not a business angle it was like I like building user interfaces and Phil who I partnered up with like building back in service infrastructure so we
00:06:09like this is the perfect project as a whole bunch of serve a crunching to figure out what the weather diner is and the whole bunch user interface to actually present that %HESITATION with the table so we built that I think this is September also of two thousand night
00:06:20I'm we launched it will run with one of the first three hundred applications in the entire store which is ridiculous to think about now because there are sixty good dealing like apps out there now and it was so what did you have to do to learn how to
00:06:33you yeah it wasn't something out Java developers say obviously I understood cutting back yeah but what did you what did you actually have to do to land in a hat who developed for the F. still was a drug because it what we used to his develop causes you
00:06:47you've got a problem you Google is funny on so I'm that didn't exist back then one because those almost no one doing it but to because apple it put the whole thing under non disclosure agreement so like you can't discuss this in public forums account and ask any
00:06:58questions about any of these rap programming devices so there's literally no googling you could do that no one was allowed to write blog posts about it I'm just gonna have to figure out on your I said to read their documentation and try and sort of get on all
00:07:09these private forms apple didn't know about and sort of exchange information in secret for very kindest on who knows what reason I don't know what I was hoping to change that but it was it was very that's what took like a month to build a assembled up because
00:07:22I had no idea how to build and I was up and I don't think anyone else really knew how to do it either site you launch yes this is two thousand I you lose the weather app and it was also remember this vividly because it was the day
00:07:35before %HESITATION my uncle brother got married so I'm sitting there you know a kind of outside having fun and whatever and I'm researching my fine just to see like has anyone downloaded this up and then I'll see it into the top one hundred of the store which like
00:07:48three hundred up to like okay that's that's not bad not top on under this pretty good %HESITATION and then during that not a slow sit com run seventy two fifty sixteen thirty one and Michael this is co and then the next day a sort of %HESITATION you know
00:08:01we're getting ready for his what wedding and I'm not caught tech take one last sort of look and it was at number five on my car that's pretty cool number five in the hole that still %HESITATION and then you know we go to the wedding and we kind
00:08:11of you know doing the wedding thing and then one of his friends comes up to he's like all congratulations some I don't think you're much is like a number one in the store my number one that's pretty cool and it was in the space of just a couple
00:08:21of nights yeah just a couple of days and then the interesting thing there is we we had really set this up as a business and we just felt an odd doing this in a spare time just you know on the couch at home or whatever and we had
00:08:31no idea what that meant to be number one does just two guys some laptops and anything else what what about infrastructure back in infrastructure we we sort of we had some %HESITATION back then it was shared hosting so really the check the server hosting you prop possibly get
00:08:47I'm with also teams up with the designer right before we launched a mechanical Dyson and the thing we're looking for there is we try to do does on these years is devices for ourselves and looked horrendous someone like who can we get to help us out so luckily
00:08:58we found the I got help is on the way we structured the business %HESITATION originally it was just a percentage went so each person so obscenity myself a percentage of sales to fill a percentage of south and I think I'm a percentage is that we're all happy with
00:09:10them like if we make no money we're happy to make some money was still happy %HESITATION I never was happy with that agreement that's that's kind of how we don't yet and so was the sign intensive costs when you've sort of yes putting in your own money well
00:09:25the good thing about this this whole endeavor %HESITATION is that the costs are very low so it cost I think a hundred forty dollars to register for an apple developer account %HESITATION we already had all the the hardware needed to develop and then the service will really take
00:09:36that ten to twenty dollars a month so we just had an agreement that any additional sort of costs that we incurred leads that come out of the the money before we sort of distributed the profits and we had no plans of the site for holding money in the
00:09:46count of whatever literally that to die apple pie this is the day we just kind of run else wouldn't hold on to like it sent the wrong yeah very different than anybody who said he would tell you about how to set up a business yeah so you get
00:10:01you guys number one yep you guys a jumper and I've engine yeah excited about you know the psyche hit number one yeah which a guy from the well the interesting thing back then is is almost no reporting about from apple suite for about two months had no idea
00:10:15what that meant right and then we got a very first time report my cool holy cow that being number one in the store that's just taking off and back then the often three G. %HESITATION was here in a star is a lot of people with you know buying
00:10:26them it turned out it was actually a big deal around the there was actual decent money coming in %HESITATION and and can you talk about the some money what does what does that look like at the time hot current at the time but I can tell you what
00:10:37happened a forties into this this up was on so for use %HESITATION it was two dollars a copy of which apple keeps thirty percent you get to keep the other seventy percent and wheat sold I believe about four hundred and ten thousand copies of this application so that's
00:10:51that's a decent number for like in an office on the first try there and I think at one point figure out some one in five I finds in and all the started in the early days it might of been last night we had ten or twenty thousand dollars
00:11:01of the coming through and Tom right but that was a huge deal because we will we're all employed like Phil and I thought to myself you had full time jobs this is just money coming in on the side and and this is where the business part of it
00:11:11gets interesting right is that by two thousand and ten we're actually ending the same amount of money outside of our employment as we were inside employment and how much time were you spending on the south side of your work implement else yeah we found as a popular we're
00:11:27expending more so we're easily spending ten to twenty hours a week on this H. on top of that as well as spending forty hours a week in a job and I think there was a crunch time right and twenty ten I went on holidays for a week %HESITATION
00:11:38Phil went on holidays and once in the same week and we got back together with exactly the same conclusion is like weren't signed with with literally working sixty house you know we queue and we're just getting Todd we getting burnt out look it's it's I know some people
00:11:51with more than that but it it does it starts to build up if you do it for a long period of time like we should just pick one of these like we either do this type thing %HESITATION we do this enterprise development thing we we shouldn't be doing
00:12:01both and so how did you arrive at that decision was a present contact list I was at a young obviously long employment with an organization yeah okay that new guy that some longer to him pace yet so we're both by filling a fairly risk of us like in
00:12:15terms of %HESITATION running a business and so we we sat down we both come to the same conclusion to like what does that mean in a practical sense and so we decided we're gonna stay here until we can build up %HESITATION three months worth of income so we
00:12:27figured if we can get three months worth of accounting come into a bank account then at least we've got some security that you know we are leaving this really stable sort of full time employment that that paid you know recently well we're gonna do our own thing but
00:12:38at least if everything goes wrong we can still pass of the three months and then we can go from the job killing I look for another job essentially right and that's that's for the most risk of us waited over that's exactly we did and then we sat down
00:12:47with their employer which is a hard conversation will like you know we love working here great people but you know then you at the time that we found this other thing my like you know what we we kind of need to go on to this other thing and
00:12:57see where it goes and to my surprise the really supportive say this was a company co groundhog software that we were working with at the time and I expected some fairly negative reactions because they don't have a lot of developers I think was four five at the time
00:13:09so almost fifty percent of the vote and stuff was heading out the door without really understanding are done I will do everything we can to support you guys you're welcome to share office you know we lost up either the really understanding about the whole thing and that would
00:13:21that wonderful to us like it was a really the best you could hope for I guess because it could have also been that like well hang on a minute you've done this thing like in your own time sure in your computers or whatever but that's not cool like
00:13:32you know get out of the office of the thing wow what a great assistance in launching your business yeah I'm in no yeah we're really grateful to tell the people that worked and it was it was I think it was up what feeling on it it is a
00:13:43fairly gentle stop because neither of us CSOs as business people that sort of in a really aggressively trying to you know entrepreneur what it would have a people called it was just a really gentle sort of introduction to to running your business but from there is one I
00:13:55got serious right we could add jobs %HESITATION we went full time so they had to think about salaries and and you know what that meant for the future and then we also had to think about what else do we build because I've got this weather app still doing
00:14:06really well but we knew that eventually you know it was gonna stop doing well because he'd be charged once in its head again how do you keep making money for this business going forward and you have to Kate developing you have to Bob fees you have to change
00:14:18at the time so you've obviously got a long time cost implication of any business and and and and if you stop selling yeah at some point everybody's gonna have the weather app you're going to see exactly in this ongoing cost look at that point we had hundreds of
00:14:32thousands of users right and that that comes with the Philly lots of a cost attached to you know we had a few servers that were running the peer of we are the at that time was also starting to charge license fees for the Dada Saddam yeah so the
00:14:44thought of it so the expenses amounting in one column that the cells are still doing really well but we could see a time that that wouldn't be the case raw and I guess a lot of people don't realize that about up development is yes is not to pay
00:14:55two dollars once and have it forever but the developers have to keep they got to keep running it again to keep maintaining it every time apple releases a new version of iOS after update otherwise you're out breaks %HESITATION this a lot of work that goes into just having
00:15:06a successful up and making sure even just works not never mind so that people expect new features around there %HESITATION is what's the what's new I need on the new stuff and I can imagine that developers on cheap to Harita nine another definitely I think in terms of
00:15:19like industries where you know you can demand a like a decent salary up development is yeah one of them so how did you arrive at the next step waited that waited that come from the next ID you with this kind of this whole idea that we need something
00:15:32else right it's not enough to just have this weather app to sustain us and we kind of look to the global market we're like we've been successful in Australia can we basics SO with something would want and then we we kind of looked the same thing we did
00:15:43with the weather up like what is what we think the fine is missing and in two thousand and ten listening to podcasts was a fairly sort of key key United not a mainstream thing but it was really hard to do when you find it to plug the phone
00:15:54into iTunes to download stuff the podcast in iTunes or to sync it across to find it to make sure you got all that working before you go out %HESITATION on the bus so you know what it whatever way case of time and we just looked at that is
00:16:05another Cheney will like we love listen to podcasts this is why too hard and we can see what the majority of people don't do this can we you know make this easier and that's where the idea because come up with like we gonna make cannot we're gonna be
00:16:17able to get the podcast directly and you find you can be a man is the one you find can download them when you find which at the time you couldn't do anywhere else and what were you listening to at the time what with the Volvo the podcast that
00:16:28you're listening to because offices and tonight is a podcast for every six hundred plus caught everything what were you listening to at the time of the majority of it back then was there was a %HESITATION and it will cover in the U. S. cold the this week in
00:16:41tech the member leolah port hood as I understand it was some kind of you know a person that was on TV over there had a show on a cable networks I got canceled he's like what do I do now I'm going to try this new podcasting things actually
00:16:54started up podcast you DO and I think he had a polka school this week in tech there was another one called mac very quickly which I'm not covered the apple side of things and that was kind of you know my podcast listing back then was very Natty it
00:17:06was though yet tech podcast and just any tech podcast looking at my hands on that's that's what I was listening to and given how difficult it was to get the part costs on to find what with the out what while the podcasts lock at that point in time
00:17:19with them permanently take away part cost sounding to expand it into a whole range of other different Jones I think %HESITATION predominately take because it was very hot food get is on the phone and so what happened what that cause to happen is it skewed very technical right
00:17:33is the people that were listening to poke us in twenty ten tended to be the people that could figure out computers to to a greater degree and then we also started to see a lot of radio stations tried out as well because of like well this is interesting
00:17:45on on demand audio you know we've we've already got the production facilities we've already got the will be a place where to recording you know thousands of hours of audio can we sort of cut it up and and put it on the web and that's where you saw
00:17:55things like you this American life which is really popular like American podcast now but back then was you know almost non existent that's that's where some of those a radio stations decided that day try this out as well who sent podcasts was born yes it was born an
00:18:09interesting thing about that is you think okay at this point %HESITATION we've been in the F. though to use when you have a way time we were successful really successful in the string market should be easy to launch into the international market rout that was L. naive thinking
00:18:21and poker cost one point zero good almost no uptake whatsoever we saw some of %HESITATION whether customers bought so we might be sold five hundred copies of something on the space a few weeks %HESITATION which at two dollars a pop is is not a lot when this is
00:18:33that the new international exciting up the launching and how long had you been working on it up until this point I think we spent a solid three or four months on saving this to three or four months of charges he yeah into an app that got five hundred
00:18:46downloads yeah yeah and I know some people are sitting out there in the like five hundred dollars this really good but for us now to talk about this a thousand Bucks a month for fast that doesn't compute now on that point %HESITATION the the weather up was still
00:19:00doing really well which which were thankful for but we look to them like what we've done wrong look at understand and we really nice about the whole marketing and promotions out of things and we realize we need to find some kind of angle that we could sort of
00:19:12work with the media will potentially with other organizations that people wouldn't notice what we're doing and we also looked at our app on like you know what we haven't done a good job either because what happened is now idea happens in a vacuum right so when we release
00:19:24pocket costs I think at least another two other podcasting apps came at the time that was zero and it went from zero to three and we looked at one of our compound the competitors that was at them like you know what that this person's actions on a slightly
00:19:35better job than we have so we have to kind of lift a game as well and sorry you are charging for the actors lots of free apps available that I will vote with the computers is doing and you look at that as well yeah about back then so
00:19:46this was with him at twenty ten twenty eleven the majority that supplied because they still existed this this strong vibrant because system for paid up the room was competing to get into the top charts and it was a very different plans get to what is today I looked
00:19:58at the majority the business model was he charged up front because once and that's that's a good connection there wasn't a lot of other pulled for review is advertising of the things that were happening at that not not something apple that even introduced into purchasing at the time
00:20:10said that wasn't the idea that you get some free and then pay for it was occupied or freight will have advertising in the hands of the three sort of models hero so you had a G. she for China just from sold five hundred copies to global domination yes
00:20:28the F. first thought was was again very nice like we need to do is just marketing %HESITATION so we started buying up hoping to banner ads we advertise input costs because with the %HESITATION who listens to podcast people who already listening to podcasts maybe they're not using out
00:20:40maybe we can get to them so that was the thing John Gruber had just the talk show with the back then it was quite popular we advertise on that we have chosen a bunch of striding podcast and you just reach out to them over their eyes and sees
00:20:51that you went to to help you with that although they were %HESITATION doing %HESITATION direct advertising so they had on their website to whatever you know if you're interested in advertising with us %HESITATION get in touch Dan Benjamin was quite big in the podcasting spice Beckham is also
00:21:02we reached out to him we thought this is sure to succeed right we know we've now spent thousands of dollars doing marketing very good at marketing %HESITATION this is gonna take off and that went absolutely nowhere because I'm I'm sure people you're listening to this and nodding their
00:21:18heads right it's not enough to to just try to advertise in all the places %HESITATION you want to you need some kind of strategy toward its role which we didn't have food just by say spending money to try and get you know people's libels and it didn't work
00:21:29so spicy just a trial and error we'll try this that doesn't work we'll try this that you know what yeah an interesting part is everything we tried didn't what kind of this point we're up to about version three of pocket costs and the sounds it picked up a
00:21:40little bit like we might have been from five hundred to five thousand but it's still listed as well do not a success no not considering what you've invested not but he never tossing as well as your own development on another point to get division three we'd invested even
00:21:54more time like those more time that was more expenses %HESITATION we had a a contract %HESITATION does on it that worked with us as well and so that's another salary that you you have to pay and at that point we'll like do we give up on this like
00:22:06we just picked up the wrong industry to get into like it is it just that we have to go and build something else so we do like to try a few things we build a world weather up %HESITATION was one of the things we tried it again that
00:22:15was a naive assumption that we destroy them with a was trying to weather for the world and see where that goes I'm I had a little bit of success and some say fraud countries like Japan it was number one in Japan for my don't know what reason I'm
00:22:26a what almost no we're in the US so you know there's a few countries in Europe was popular but again not a huge amount of success and and now we're kind of staring at it was like okay we've had one success and you you know you know the
00:22:37the thing with bands right you have one hit wonders welcome we we are one hit wonder like is this is this %HESITATION wherever going today to hit you show off their podcasts and put that on August to develop these other these are that it her actions of other
00:22:48apps we we almost did say that that's one thing we seriously consider were elected we just pretend like we never did this and bury it and then we had this weird idea I come android was starting to become a thing in the US right with that they had
00:23:00this huge marketing sort of push with %HESITATION I think Verizon one of the big carries you know droid the droid this enjoyed that and what that meant is that suddenly there was this new platform sort of up and coming and people really interested in this like this gonna
00:23:14go anyway can I challenge apple because apple was absolutely don't want at that point like by huge white and then all the the article said is coming from the developers like this my money to be made here it's it's you know it's a garbage fire and seeing a
00:23:25disgusting no no mostly use this platform no one's buying on that platform and we thought that was really interesting right because he was a place that everyone else was making these super high quality I was UPS which apple demanded and then basically are the following up some of
00:23:39the company %HESITATION doing a terrible job of putting that same up to android just a day just to be there to see what would happen up that investor might nine money whatsoever and that to a single it backwards because we felt that if you could make something high
00:23:51quality on a platform that had no high quality ups maybe that was a way to stand up because of that this point the iOS app ecosystem was really vibrant that was now millions of applications you know things will really start to take a phone is getting hotter and
00:24:03how to to to be noticed and like I wonder if we can get noticed lander and also I wonder if we take an explosion to enter a first and we make that our exclusive focus could that be like an interesting sort of articles will look you think about
00:24:16you know dog bites man versus man bites dog right it's like he is a successful up developer they've gone to entered for us which no one else was doing at the time could that be like an interesting you know story we can tell at this time where were
00:24:28your competitors successful with with their two podcast apps on the apple store was just yeah yeah so some of them just with it is not successful models was you know was the whole point cost thing just not you know not driving successive for any developer or was it
00:24:42just just you know because at the time you could see the charts right so you can see the top pie charts and the top grossing chats and we could say that %HESITATION even more competitive said turned up at that stage and some of them were doing much better
00:24:53than we would like you know if they will number ten and we were not but like sixty five we can like look this is a market there but the for whatever reason we just count you know make it up there and had I moved into the android spices
00:25:05point nine on a mission to kind of space because the the common thinking was %HESITATION you know want to be an android there's no money to be made this I was so why bother and that's by some nothing king that's held the developers were were acting at the
00:25:16time okay so you don't enjoy yes we put in a lot of effort into the center up again we kind of looked us cells in a room for three months of Philip myself in Arizona and which she thought what if we can design like a really high quality
00:25:30experience and this was a huge investment right because at that point known was known as making money and enter that was nice %HESITATION to develop a story that %HESITATION have biggest shift was it for you to develop on one platform as opposed to developing on another platform in
00:25:44terms of cutting eccentric was at a big learning curve for you it wasn't in terms of the language because Andretti's cut it on a language called Java which were already hurting really centers with him however wasn't times investment because we we couldn't take any of our I was
00:25:57kind of moved to enter because they just tell you complete different paradigms to complete different languages so we got to re use of the service stuff that we built %HESITATION but none of the front and stuff so we had to buy see re implement %HESITATION all of that
00:26:08for a complete different platform well yeah looking back on it was a little bit of an insane thing to do but the interesting thing about this some division for an answer we just went straight division for we we skipped all the other versions %HESITATION because we wanted them
00:26:21to to line up with I was one and then we made a big deal about it well like Hey look you know reporters we're going to android first %HESITATION we think this is going to be successful and to be honest we didn't really know if it was gonna
00:26:32be successful but we try to project that sort of image of we're doing something different to everyone else we think this is going to be a big deal going full and this is going to launch a full three months ahead of our I was was my guy he
00:26:43first and that we might show we kind of time and time that this is the story and then that story got picked up absolutely everywhere was on so have you had so who you Kentucky seek you talk to the media how they have these people that you knew
00:26:55already or were you just randomly sending information out to you just random media sources or know what we've done at that point is we decided %HESITATION we needed to get better at the the media relations sort of thing so we started attending %HESITATION apple has a worldwide developer
00:27:09conference WWT Sager who has one good alive so we try to attend these and we specifically to automate some reporters say %HESITATION we met some reporters that we're trying more we want some report is the way to the verge %HESITATION we got to know you know all these
00:27:21different sort of publications not to the level that would deny best buddies and we go out for drinks or whatever but just so they know you they can put a name to a face you know then I who %HESITATION feet happen to send them an email will be
00:27:30like Hey great chatting to three months ago you know this is something you might be interested in and I think we let the hard way that that was going to be a lot more successful than just cold unite emailing someone because I look at the have any books
00:27:41full of stuff that I got in there this guy is like in a senator how realities any serious or is he just some dates in and buy some some way yeah and I imagine being at those those conferences gives you some level of credibility that you travel to
00:27:53live from Australia today yeah men they're interested not right because you don't get a lot of a strident over the more you didn't back then you do now but I'm like how well you know that's a long flight from Australia and you must be really jet lagged and
00:28:03you know what's that line can because they expect ever on the deal with to be somewhere in the valley right and in the summer in Silicon Valley which is you know California so the west and maybe if that you know we had and I live in New York
00:28:15like that's that's another thing either on the other coast but expect looking straight into the yeah yeah so that that worked in our favor as well so you you launch yet is the theme here about first mover advantage isn't a fan you guys not so you won't you
00:28:30said the first podcast that was it another on the podcast apps on android %HESITATION to to be perfectly fair that one very good so a lot of them were built by I'm really talented developers who had no user interface experience whatsoever which was kind of the landscape on
00:28:44enter the time you had all these really solid apps that we just though terrible to use wrote the buttons were really those million buttons are all over the place I'm no one had really sat down and thought about the why use a walks through these and you know
00:28:57even down to just how to make things simple to subscribe what that %HESITATION done is some every time one of the uses that sent a feature request it was really obvious that the lack of discipline put another check books put it on the setting and the net result
00:29:09was he died from one of these ups and you like goodness there's like five hundred check boxes just to get started and I really don't understand what's what's going on here is that because you know they've they've introduced a feature that one person has requested rather than look
00:29:24at the broader landscape of requesting a you know what is a feature hundred people requested might be that's with investing in this one is not a not only that but I think they'd look to the features people had been sending in and I hadn't thought about the core
00:29:36of what it actually meant so sometimes some will tell you I really want this thing I want to button here but what potentially the actually man I want to sound like a bit pretentious but what that might mean is not then asserted button I just need a way
00:29:46to do this thing the trial date so what if you don't give them about and what if you actually just re told me up a little bit to make what they're doing %HESITATION easier up and that's the kind of %HESITATION live or aiming it at that point we'd
00:29:57actually hired a full time does on a to come work with us and that was kind of his focus as well is is how can we can we do the things that he wanted to but without sort of cluttering the user interface understating the water on the wall
00:30:08beside him for his second stop report it scummy people get that wrong yeah and now I think that's what every other app on the platform had got wrong up to that point and this is the interesting power because none of these were dumb people they're all really smart
00:30:21like intelligent developers that were very switched on and and obviously being very attentive to the user bases woke up in sometimes in the wrong way yeah for those of a long term growth so what happened after launch off to launch it was amazing I up picked up absolutely
00:30:34everywhere was on the verge was on %HESITATION it wasn't even a whole bunch of apple websites to like look at this and our first like you know they're idiots let's see how this experiment goes and all that attention actually got to drive it time of day unless the
00:30:47entered vision and interestingly also boosted the iOS cells as well because I see all these people apple side like I've never heard of this Parker costing let's go check it out and some of those actually mean I went out and bought and that's literally that motion for lunch
00:31:01on and %HESITATION is where we can point to it finally being successful so the money that was coming in was finally much bigger than the expenses that were sort of pouring into it and suddenly we could see like a pastor this after actually being some kind of success
00:31:13and that's that's also the first time people start to take it seriously as well while sat in the sense that was pretty exciting did you you must of look back on that Tom where you'll wondering whether or not to show it goodness we didn't do that all absolutely
00:31:26especially now that some you know podcasting is continue to grow your own you because one thing we had in this industry that we didn't have in the weather up is that the %HESITATION more more podcast listeners every year side there are more strident Sir into whether you like
00:31:39we're not you know doubling up population every year whatever but in the podcasting space that was happening so as the industry kept growing Arabic she kept crying with that which is amazing and so what's the growth white McLaughlin podcasts they start and what sort of annual growth right
00:31:54as has the painting in there also put custom I don't know about the actual industry as a whole look I think at the moment the figures out that about forty percent of Americans have listen to a podcast in the lost lives two weeks so it is it is
00:32:06growing in popularity like you you look at those figures here on your and I get hot but in terms of al growth like we we've seen a fairly solid sort of %HESITATION just just a great fun that's like we make more this month that we did last month
00:32:19and more last month and we did this month it just keeps going on I thought very slowly but very steadily so we can kind of tell that by therapy is growing in the industry's kind of growing with it's interesting I've two apart cost that's got nothing related to
00:32:30the self my tear each and all I see people who %HESITATION seventies in in a IT is in their sixties listening to pop podcast now where five years ago or three years ago chance no chance at all and I think it was happening now is a lot of
00:32:45radio stations is promoting that is also if you listen to like here in Australia we have that BC right and have things like writing a national that tend to skew some of the shows and disk you quote sort of senior night and they promote that they're like Hey
00:32:56if you missed a show on Wednesday guess what those there's a white it's gonna get on your finder on your tablet or on your computer and I think that %HESITATION and tosses a lot of people in because they like yeah I don't have to sit down Wednesday at
00:33:07three thirty PM at this building particular time so I can listen to the show Mike maybe I wanna Thursday at like nine PM you know when I'm free and I think there's something really interesting about the on demand odia so what's the app development lot market lock here
00:33:21in Australia and has you felt any pressure to to go outside to have developers elsewhere in the world other than by Steven Adler yeah I think I'm the interesting thing about that market here is it's %HESITATION pretty much %HESITATION dope is doing client work so that we can
00:33:37agency like KPMG or similar %HESITATION though the beginning for decent salaries but they'll be working you know for vertical climb at a particular time that project to finish the move on to the next one set for a corporation who once and that for the staff to use or
00:33:50for them to use for the client so eccentric yeah and the the used to be a really vibrant industry of independent not develop as like a cells but what happened around twenty twelve is %HESITATION and this is VOA document the up market basket dog like everything tend to
00:34:04free and like cannot purchase and really focused on the games that so you jams and that kind of thing and %HESITATION the developers of of apps that was selling you jams and things that they sell skyrocketed and old the the apps that would just one time phase and
00:34:18everything else that people no longer we're willing to pay that and that the same kind I'm is and you just see the the bottom dollar federal part of the industry and that happened here in a star there's also all of them ended up just going to get jobs
00:34:29with with other companies and that that's kind of the the why the market still is at the moment like it if it's easy to be %HESITATION a contract developer that happens a lot here at letters %HESITATION but is is very hard to to do your own thing and
00:34:40you see that changing is that is that kind of change in the future or do you think that that's the why yet little market's gonna pay for sometime come forward yeah that's a hard thing to think about but I think it will be you that wife for sometime
00:34:51in the reason is %HESITATION we both have ourselves to blame and apple I think to some extent is that it was it was this drive to the bottom ones had too much supply developers had no other way to stand out than like well Europe's models one's gonna be
00:35:04three ninety nine and the like %HESITATION uses three nine nine months ten on and on and eventually that drive it all the way to you know what month free you know a complete free and then suddenly you can't get anymore but I'm afraid I think apple was supportive
00:35:15of that as well because they like the more these free abundant up so we can have a imagine that story like he got you by a telephone I'm and you do get a wealth of apps to choose from in a cost you absolutely no money whatsoever and I
00:35:25don't think that we're too concerned about you know what that meant for the future of developers that were like this is a great position for selling hardware and so both of us together I think we're kind of responsible for that drop to the bottom like all the developers
00:35:37worldwide in a combined with companies like apple just kind of have driven the entire market into the ground essentially the doesn't apple have a vested interest in height apps as well given that it taking a cot from the eyes of the song they they do and I don't
00:35:51think this doesn't make a lot of money from my purchases and games too insanely popular lucky look at some of these clash of clans and candy crush and even some of the guys below them in Macon thirty forty minute also die and and selling you know you know
00:36:04purchases to pay one apple takes of a C. thirty percent cut of the thirty to fifty forty million dollars a day yeah that kind of money we're talking and and games that are absolutely free apply but potentially I mean we will sing the mechanic the take six hours
00:36:19to build this thing but if you buy a few gems then you can do in like thirty seconds and there's something about the psychology of that and I'm sure the candle because the thought about the really triggered something inside of people that people are impatient and want to
00:36:30white now look you know what I have to do all this the kid has about two dollars when we now find that when someone wants to buy pocket costs for example the cots it's five does not have to spend a few days researching and read some articles in
00:36:41the US and the developed some questions like you don't know is that is the psychology of it were you know what you're getting with the gym like you to despise with thing you just throwing money in houses made it like it is an instant gratification as as an
00:36:54a and R. can now build moss for tomorrow if you know whatever Taylor I'm going to do I used to be a bit of a clash of clan of how much money you spend zero are only because I had a friend who serve in that group who you
00:37:09hit somebody told me to spend fifteen hundred dollars %HESITATION Alan clash of clans and off line these night why aren't going to fall into that trap and so I become easier right zero page such %HESITATION but side is it I can be very addictive %HESITATION and then the
00:37:24other think these eyes as she held it does on to be as well I mean that's a whole nother podcast of the I guess so that's the pre history to the current history to what's happened over the last the last month or so well see here's the interesting
00:37:36part because we we chatted about six months ago and you know like you know I think we should recall this thing I'm like I'm a little busy at the moment I can hear very hesitant thought high honors shine out of hate and do other stuff before now it's
00:37:46not that I can maybe just doesn't like me I don't know how you could be that actually is probably that not yeah so what happened is %HESITATION like I said the podcasting industry keeps going I think around twenty fifteen also there was a podcast cool serial which and
00:38:00I would buy it for me with %HESITATION a when absolutely gangbusters like pretty much the whole world at this point someone as head of zero knows what it is like maybe they haven't listened but there where about right and if you haven't listened to it eighties it is
00:38:12a crack in fact it's the podcast that got me into podcasting yeah somebody or somebody recommended it to me I listened I was hooked was that was fantastic above listen to it three times it was it was something about it like it came at the right time was
00:38:27really well produced the kind from a a like a a podcasting house that was really good at what they were doing and that was that moment in time that it just in a right moment right time right place I'm in this podcast exploded and what that also meant
00:38:40is lucky so for a lot of people that you know her to put custom but maybe not cut into it suddenly stood up and and paid attention and also happen is a a bunch of %HESITATION venture capitalists and other companies that went to anything the podcasting specially when
00:38:52like who is this is a market we could be in and all of a sudden you saw like this anti huge machine of you know money another thing suddenly spin up to try and figure out some way to control the protesting industry because they they saw that the
00:39:06down the track if we can somehow control the distribution of this %HESITATION we could potentially be very very wealthy so you know I just I you could see a whole bunch of %HESITATION you company so spin up we even started getting a lot of critics like the companies
00:39:18are kind to us and said Hey we want to be in this podcasting spies can we can we buy a company can we invest can we you know though just not throwing up money others but it almost felt like that you know every month of being your email
00:39:28from some you know really well nine pfam that would be like you know we like we doing Hey can we can we figure out some way to so what did you jump on the bandwagon with nearly dies yeah it's we were very idealistic in the early days when
00:39:41we first out of this company will like we're not starting to so we're starting to run a profitable business out the interesting thing is seven years later yet when people come to you with with office of of decent amounts of money like what what do we do this
00:39:52like in this is you you figured out this is how much money we're currently making %HESITATION this is more money than we're ever gonna make in the next few years like maybe we should just jump on this wallets while still thing but all the initial offers we had
00:40:02in the early days %HESITATION we're very much about we want to buy your entire company we want to shut down the product and we want to put you into our engineering team %HESITATION to work with the existing stuff that you know we have and that might be attractive
00:40:14or something %HESITATION but we look to that we thought we haven't worked for like a boss for like eight years we don't with the two guys back to what you were doing before you start does and does this money involved and I mean who doesn't like money let's
00:40:24be honest but at the same time like kind of feels like we're selling it uses and it also feels like we're selling at us I was a little bit and while we could probably late comfortable I've seen I working for these other companies are like it's not it's
00:40:36not over really passionate about and in the end I think Philip and I were both in a great while like it %HESITATION it's tempting but we're not we're not gonna take these office was there ever size where one of you want to do it the other day it
00:40:48was a few pairs I think with Philip figured out exactly how much your items mortgage and all these different sort of financial pressures that you have in your life is like if I could get rid of all that stuff like maybe it doesn't matter what what we're doing
00:40:58and how can I thought about that is %HESITATION like in the movies as pretty attractive for them of us like hang on a minute like we've already got a profitable company like we're doing a cafe I'm will end up there eventually like let's just let's just keep doing
00:41:10what do has been an offer came along that you couldn't refuse so twelve twelve months ago what happened is %HESITATION for those of the view that a familiar with podcasting the bulk of the four top podcast is in the world got together %HESITATION and I formed a bit
00:41:23of a not conglomerate but like a partnership so there was %HESITATION NPR national public radio in the U. S. %HESITATION those W. NYC which is the %HESITATION the public right a session of you look the price obviously %HESITATION those WBZ which is the Chicago public ready and that
00:41:36was it this American life which is highly successful podcast it's kind of spun off into its its own company now and so these four people %HESITATION %HESITATION for %HESITATION organizations a since I got together and they come to us and they said Hey look we can kind of
00:41:50see a future in podcasting with some other company looks it up and that's bad for you guys that's bad for us as well I'm can we potentially partner together was their initial discussions and we we thought about me thought know what this is interesting these a %HESITATION for
00:42:04not for profit organizations that are the four biggest podcast producers in the world they they're starting to potentially see a future where they're going to get locked out of things and if they're going to get locked out of things what's a tiny company like us gonna be because
00:42:17we compared to the apples of the world we are quite small right you got the most profitable company in the world apple this is you know you know somebody so thousands and thousands of flies have to go down before I get to us and we thought someone like
00:42:29that has the potential to squeeze us out of the entire market place if they want to and that's what we got to thinking like maybe this is in our best interest to at least explore what they have to say so we spent so what did you mean by
00:42:38squeeze at what what's the risk for small company lucky versus you know these large corporations what was yes the risk that's a good question so think about at the moment %HESITATION you make a podcast %HESITATION you can distribute it freely on the internet right you put out the
00:42:52thing called a podcast fade I'm you know it thousands of different clients pick it up like pocket cost picks it up in apple picks it up Google picks it up and it's an open ecosystem essentially like anyone can publish a podcast and anyone can %HESITATION I've just I've
00:43:06syndication is the right word but anyone can get it out to all these different platforms with libraries so you don't have to sign a contract with apple that says you know I agree to give up all my pizza apple I'm and it's just that's how the industry works
00:43:17weapon imagine a situation with %HESITATION a big company comes along and they say like you know we have this podcasting platform %HESITATION we have this many users will find ways to monetize your content for a Buck you know by the way if the sun exclusive agreement with us
00:43:31we have to make sure that you know you put cost is not available anywhere else and so what that would mean for a company like ours is if suddenly all the best podcast moved into some kind of ecosystem that we didn't have access to any more suddenly all
00:43:43the customers would be looking at that now like I can't get the the ten most popular podcasts in the locked away in this I spot a file some about that and that will be really bad for us because eventually if that Patton kept going suddenly would be left
00:43:55without what I wanna say the dregs but we would essentially be left with the not the best but Castro and what what kind of value proposition is that for our customers to be like yeah yes to wire up but you know the best book also available somewhere else
00:44:07not here that's that's really bad yeah and side to these four wheel going on such as the got together their intake really is to ensure the continued success without being locked out of fear of the contents distribution market get essentially another to simplification but that's exactly right because
00:44:25they they would have the same problems in in a model of that way suddenly that before to my content deals with the company that potentially %HESITATION is not is not our will to them like that who knows what kind of the licensing agreements and we kind of that
00:44:37there was a very very familiar with what happened in the the video industry and the media industry around the is that you have someone like a Netflix who owns the distribution channels and over time they can adjust the the deals however they want and you can try to
00:44:49play hard ball with them but potentially if once they look down the entire market that might not be any rose to go and I suddenly is not an option to distribute your own stuff because everyone is going to this other platform so that that's what they're worried about
00:45:00as well yeah and it's not it's not unique to this industry not on a previous set aside %HESITATION I spoke with a local manufacturer here who deals with three distribution hands I work with the two largest organizations here in in the straw yeah calls will with exactly and
00:45:18that's a tough market to apply I have a lot of plans the duty and once I have that town %HESITATION organizations and had to be the friendliest to pay but once once I have some kind of monopoly would you up early they're quite happy to to lean on
00:45:28you and be like a you know what this person give us five percent less if you don't give us five percent less like you know can be in the market place and that's that's the kind of future they were worried about I guess and it it might never
00:45:39happen but I I guess them looking at it with was like you know what this is quite likely like zero has been a success people of saying how popular podcasting is big companies are starting to to sort of stuff up and %HESITATION you know I put more resources
00:45:51into this it's entirely possible that they're trying to move towards the Sime business models to look like I said we started talking to them about is there some way we can work together to try to partner up basically to to prevent that or at least neutron prevent cry
00:46:05having a strategy before he leaves the strategy yeah it's it's good to to plan ahead and that took to be fed to them that they planned for twelve for twelve months before that even contacted us so this this is been a two year project on that part %HESITATION
00:46:18and they originally thought can we build this in house because you know that they have a whole bunch of dumb stuff they have %HESITATION technical resources that have the infrastructure of servers and things a lot but I think I wanna speak for them but it is %HESITATION targets
00:46:30I wanted ninety that yeah I I can't speak on their behalf but from what I can tell that they were very mindful of the fact they went so for companies and also that they had a a lot of competing interests in Saudi organizations because these are really old
00:46:42well established organizations that have a a lot of rules around things they can do with public money things I can't do with public money they also have a lot of internal projects so they already have going and don't necessarily want to cancel because I don't say they saw
00:46:55this as a as a hedge but it's more like this whole this is a new thing that could come to spin up without affecting anything that they're currently doing I think at that point I realized you know what we have to find %HESITATION some kind of suffer company
00:47:06out there who we can partner with you know believe separate potentially but spin up on its side and let let them run instead of us running it directly let them continue to be successful with a successful at yeah yeah and it's at that point I reached out to
00:47:17a whole bunch of punk us developers in the market and I believe some of the sort of %HESITATION develop as well as I said I would you be interested in this and we one of the people that said you know maybe maybe let's let's talk and and see
00:47:27where we go sounded a tie between initial contacts to putting some paint I was a full twelve months of how can one so the first two months to spend time talk about a partnership %HESITATION we realized two months in the side to get to complicate it that I
00:47:40can be sure that everything we want happens while you still get to run your own company and and just the whole directions and I wanted to see if they can put in a bunch of money that do one a little bit of control and that just not to
00:47:50get too complicated so two months in we just said you know what this this isn't working like this this whole partnership thing is gonna work like we're sorry like we want to get to the same places but %HESITATION it's obvious that we count and then I came back
00:48:01to us and they said well what about not position potentially where %HESITATION you know we'll we'll we'll buy the company will leave you in charge of it will spin up as a separate %HESITATION company but we'll kind of have ownership of it so we'll put a boarding place
00:48:14the time you know we get to approval the business plans and make sure it's headed in the right direction but you get to keep you know running the thing that you're running and that we we thought by then a single a more attractive because suddenly you get to
00:48:24keep a lot of the control they had before and they get what they want which is also you know some controlling interest in what's going on and making sure that we don't end up on some really weird past like the kind of thing like for both of us
00:48:35that that could potentially be a good one guy yeah has surfaced of everything really isn't it yeah yeah exactly and so the interesting part there is we had originally planned to do that to learn about four months state six months in would be done right with these with
00:48:46his son and whatever but of course I'm sure as you know like a a deal that big with so many different organizations involved and lawyers and lie is and I just you just drag down outside I think it took a full twelve months before we finally in a
00:48:59Cup and I've had distracting is that'll know why I'm used to get a business to run still got the development has to happen how distracting is an acquisition I've appear to twelve months to running United I dismiss I was very distracting because what we do is we sit
00:49:14down we plan something like okay in three months time we ended up on them like whoa is a kind of change we actually invest three months of effort into something if we don't know if this acquisition is potentially happening so I want to say that we put everything
00:49:26on hold because we we didn't we kept working but it was it's very distracting both mentally and you know planning S. is is like ours is happening is it not happening obviously we had to do %HESITATION there was a technical to diligence that was legal to jail and
00:49:40this was a whole bunch of you know things that we had to fall and sent to them and at some point you know he started to send %HESITATION your financials off to this other organization you know I can put on the right thing one of the books and
00:49:51like his everything you need to know about how we run a business which is very %HESITATION it's it's it's kind of intimate right it's like this where private company so we're not publicly listed or ending would have to tell anyone anything about how we run our organization and
00:50:05suddenly by see given them the case to everything that they could have walked away with and said thanks very much for that so now we know how to do it in cells yeah yeah we know the exact cost involved another kind of P. one high we know the
00:50:15rough then right so whatever thanks very much like us and that that was that was a huge concern for us to do anything to mitigate that we thought about it but then we thought like you in some senses when you're forming a partnership like that has to be
00:50:27about trust like we we spoke to them repeatedly and I we could on the fine %HESITATION over Skype whatever and at some point we're like we just gonna have to trust that they have you know how best interests at heart and also the fact that they were negotiating
00:50:39so openly with us as well like that I told us I we talking to these other people as well %HESITATION you know you're you guys are the top the list but you know if this doesn't work out we do also have some other options we just want to
00:50:48be up front about that and that was the very open about everything that that we're doing in that we we got to to travel over there as well and make them all I'm and I think at that point we just thought we'd we'd have to put a little
00:50:58bit of trusts into you know that they they have the best of intentions how hard is it to do a deal lock the Swedes to you different countries involved because I can imagine that acquisitions in your own country %HESITATION complicated enough but yeah you've got two different sets
00:51:14of laws two different sets of business %HESITATION markets to to what sorry %HESITATION was it was really complicated by for awesome for them so we we had to hire a lawyer in a tax lawyer and I also want those had lawyers on this side the head to %HESITATION
00:51:28out so it's a whole bunch of stuff to a company in Sydney as well because they went really familiar with this try to market anymore than we were familiar with the U. S. market and then we had the problem of Thompson's as well so if you look at
00:51:38when your kids on the map and wear Adlai destroy there is on the map that completely opposite comes and says no part of it working day that I've laps with with their working day and not my things really challenging so you have the time signs you have the
00:51:50different laws the strategy and I also had a lot of concerns about what does it mean for them to bind a strident company because what what it means to buy an American company is complicated but known what it means to bind the straining company that were like well
00:52:02we don't we don't really know what other implications is I have that we might not know about and also then going on and running in the street in operation so employing astride and stuff making sure you comply with all the local legislation there's a lot of different things
00:52:14he did the the early morning light not pace how we we %HESITATION we talked on that so we we did a lot of eleven thirty and twelve thirty in the morning sometimes like meetings which that's quite draining to try and look look at best and you know pretend
00:52:27like his mom you can say really intelligent and they will come to work the next exactly and I did as well yeah like they did some light notes as well %HESITATION and we just we just wait for that I have a of a Scott and whatever other meetings
00:52:39we could fonts just backwards and forwards backwards and forwards for marcasite twelve months so the the do assigned right here actually rose in her right to the spot released I'll take a fight of the Savannah and actually since can say that put it up on the on the
00:52:54part cost I think actually have a photo of us on the funny thing about was we back was in full is back with a full specs and those a few moments where we almost walked away so a %HESITATION those a few things were trying to get into the
00:53:05contract so that when I call this doesn't employed and United belong in employment contract to belong somewhere else and it's not to get to the point where like it's been a long time and Phil and I just said look like these are conditions you automate the more we
00:53:17walk away which wasn't an easy thing I don't pretend like you know we really hot Disney and the guy says we're not like we're very so timid %HESITATION top people but we just had enough at this point we're at the end of a tether side was a was
00:53:28the issue that you've been dragging on for Evan was locked up I just gotta get on with yeah I know those a few things that we really want to make sure written down and actual words that we could sign and that would potentially saying well you could have
00:53:39this and other documents but I think from our point of view will like if we don't get this in writing who knows what's going to happen in in twelve months time and it was a real sticking point because a lawyer as well like well you with enough we
00:53:49can do this and alloy was like well I think you should be able to do this and it was quite a risky thing to say like we've had an awful I'm going to walk away and lists gets on because you would invest a favor to cash in doing
00:53:59this to his lawyers and tax cans and other people absolutely like it was due to tens of thousands at all at this point that they were like up for I'm and we had a real thirty minutes of wagon after we send that email until but I can back
00:54:14thirty minutes later in the like named him pleasant walk away like real quick with you guys will greatly conditions it's fun I'm which sounds like a real negotiating win but I want a lot to that thirty minutes was was factor stress for helping there are probably would have
00:54:28my jeans white ever not once in action as well if he does is to leave behind and then it's really anti climatic after that we agreed to everything we said a settlement %HESITATION it %HESITATION we had %HESITATION going and then all that involved was alloy walked into this
00:54:42very office that was sitting in the sport a stack of paper took the I. two states that we saw on them and it's like okay we're done like ours that after all this time look is that that's it is like it now I'm going to mail this off
00:54:53to the U. S. and that's on on this side and you know and we just have to sit there and and white for the prices to to finish wow said I party will come on you must have had a potty funny and crack a bottle of champagne I
00:55:05from something nicer this phone which on the contract not to get into the money or anything %HESITATION but we did receive zero dollars basically let what I consolidated because healthy prospect and then at that to go back in and it was a closing date and then there was
00:55:17issues with okay we need to push the closing that away because dealing with the strider is really complicated or whatever and then %HESITATION when the initial sort of acquisition money actually hit our account and that's when the %HESITATION filling I when I'm putting just a little bit because
00:55:29there is a crisis of the potty P. what we're like if we don't celebrate at this point and then what's the point now where the staff thank you you've always got some police he wanted I think with a worried well I can't speak for them but we we
00:55:42tried to be as I've been with them as we could %HESITATION am so weak we tell the very early on high we negotiating with with these particular people I'm gonna place until anyone thought this could go no with this could go somewhere the reason we're doing this is
00:55:53we're trying to make sure that we're still around you know three four years time we want to make sure that you know it is if the worst happens that we can still be here and still a parting and they I think though quota understanding by the office of
00:56:04the had questions about what is the main to wait for someone in New York one of the main that you guys and I longer in charge in the will potentially have a see %HESITATION we have a board and we try to work through a lot of those concerns
00:56:14but I think in the end telling them ahead of time was probably a good thing but clip the I'll be honest the the people in the gushing with really nervous about us telling this stuff stuff sorry because they're like well we understand that you want to tell them
00:56:25but if you tell them this could potentially come to the market and that could make things very difficult for us in terms of like an announcement and negotiations and whatever else but we just said to them I look we've we've got to be up front with them like
00:56:36we always have been about you know various other things and I think in the end that that worked out fine what's next what's on what's on the roadmap for publicados and is it just pocket costs or what happens to the weather app other on the few trip development
00:56:51plans implies Exeter yes so this site is it's all about pocket costs like we we both feel that %HESITATION there's a huge opportunity here to to grow like I said at the very start of the focus of the platform not just as a podcast listening it so that's
00:57:04that's a focus going forward %HESITATION it's funny and he just got a flood you know Sunday not coming back from the U. S. recording this on a on a Tuesday some I'm a little bit tight so it's hard to to get excited like right here now but the
00:57:16next eighties %HESITATION they're investing a bunch of money into the company and we're gonna try and stuff up to to reach all these different goals that we've talked about so we've already hard like one you person was sort of %HESITATION turn how to more people at the moment
00:57:28and some more people in the U. S. and then some more people in a few months time the the real thing we're focused on now is trying to grow the company out because we have we have all these different things we're trying to achieve but knows to do
00:57:39those we need we need to scale up our resources and and you know I serve as in various other things so that's the real thing we try to focus on and the hard thing about that is as you know you kind of hot twenty people in the divan
00:57:49expecting culture to stay the same as if the company to to keep going so it doesn't they were working really hard on the moment is how many people coming heart once just so we get them sort of embedded we get them some trying once the happy you know
00:58:01what's the next lot of people that we can hire so that that's what we're trying to have the next three to six months that's pretty exciting yeah I think it is because it's not just like that was spending someone else's money to do this that's that's kind of
00:58:11a little bit exciting but the most exciting part is we've had a lot of these plans for years like some of the same plans that they have on there and like we've been planning out as well but every time I looked at it will like that's going to
00:58:21involve hiring an I. five six people if this doesn't succeed what we do with US five six people look at a few really bad just fire them afterwards and say we tried but you know thanks and so now that we kind of have the backing we have the
00:58:32resources %HESITATION it's a lot more comfortable to read to bring people into the company to work on things knowing that you can offer them a secure job I guess because I am I mean you can see the sort of from the storyline sort of unfold that Phil and
00:58:44I've always been about the security like job security that we've had here and we want that and I guess for employees as well so looking back on the journey sci fi causes pain have any since two thousand a night yeah so looking back I realize she is is
00:58:59there anything you change a look back at guys choice if I need on the sovereignty done that or whatever is there anything you want the anything you'd change well I know it's a real sort of %HESITATION you know a place I think the side but I think all
00:59:12the things that we do actually made us into the company and so the people we are today so I think if I could change something up for proper just tweak a little bit help coaches Phil and I will because I feel like we could probably go here a
00:59:24lot sooner had we just bring that little bit more aggressive %HESITATION yeah because with both so I risk of us like it's it's unbelievable luck just how risk of us we are when it comes to various things in a kind of looking back I can think like off
00:59:36with just one set of it soon I we just got a bit aggressive with hiring like new people saying I have we just in a done a few of these things and I feel like we could go here in five years instead of ten but you know it
00:59:47is what it is you can use it as a what that brings right yeah if you were if you were a you know a lot more aggressive you might have gone spoke last thing five hundred down life's not been that will go and do something else I mean
00:59:58that's entirely possible who knows who knows where that one thing it's a great story my story Fred light yeah this %HESITATION thing is that sleepy town about lead that has the reputation for not doing much I think there's a lot of stories like this and I let that
01:00:11one up and that's really what this part cost is all about because all right into you and made a lot of people in applied and yeah it's been ten years in open on the back here possibly doing that for Adelidae nobody going back there to die you know
01:00:25those sorts of conversations and I get back your phone will this really interesting exciting stuff happening and no one's talking about no I think that's that's something about an office I'd like culture a strident culture we don't tend to you want to get up on a pedestal and
01:00:38talk about successful we are but it is interesting that you said people down like he'd like you have any talk to me like wow I had no idea like anything all that was was coming out of metal and it's definitely and like culture yeah we're not won T.
01:00:49and I see this in my organization are working I'd like you we don't stand up on site high look how great we yeah yeah and I see that happening business I see that happening community organizations just doesn't happen as much as it does in the eastern side you
01:01:05probably wrote that there is a sort of culture about let in on the one hand I'm proud of that but on the other hand it is a little bit said that sometimes you don't get to hear some of the stores I guess that's why podcast that's what this
01:01:14is all about amazing thank you very much for sharing your story and %HESITATION I look forward to hearing the Knicks success the next iteration of public cost yeah hopefully we get together in a few years time and bill success in exciting stuff and if you're listening to this
01:01:30on another podcast ahead shame on you shame on you and I must side at once offended about polka casa ditched the ditch the other ones and that and I actually have probably have C. T. probably suit you'll more part cost it fine because I taste more put custom
01:01:51although yeah and %HESITATION but this is the one I was ever done about it one of which is or the that's how you take you company from aside heck you today you're very very successful business congratulations to the guys own building what is truly remarkable business if you
01:02:20listen to this podcast and you're not listening to it on the podcast that then jump on the apple app store or the Google play store and listen to it today you go so far publicado Twitter at poker costs how you don't forget to write offs the soap my
01:02:35teary on your favorite podcast app or jump on Instagram Twitter Facebook will say listening now put cost at the self might talk com until next time keep inviting the coming and prosper

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