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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Modern India's greatest shame is that even after 70 years of Independence, we still haven't solved the problem of caste. Shruti Rajagopalan joins Amit Varma in episode 52 of the Seen and the Unseen to shed light on some of the ways in which we have messed up at an institutional level.

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English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00I am this is seventy years since India became an independent country and Michael what we've got to get through to get there was so many challenges strictly faced so many values that we needed to overcome to stay one United Kerr we were divided by language ethnicity religion and
00:00:20most of all perhaps the deepest division of four by cost and now seventy years after we became independent cost remains agreed to shame and the on scene our weekly podcast on economics politics and the real sign please welcome your host welcome to the scene in the us before
00:00:47we get into today's episode a quick note from our sponsor this week if your lover of art and want to get someone to your home head on over to Indian condos struck on Indian Carlos is a company that licenses the work of Indian artists and adapted into objects
00:01:02of everyday use including where to block like stores and customs home decor that cushion covers in table runners and axis cities like gold bricks this allows are close to actually get fined are into the homes and accessible grace an artistic royalties instance just like workers to the artists
00:01:23whose work you'll find hearing cure no minorities that drove your chart here some you'd want to rest wicks raxle bring domino shooting yes and then my favorite cutting looking to check it out Indian colors struggle Aeschylus with it will you and use of code I use the M.
00:01:39twenty IBM twenty four to twenty percent discount remember idea grantee Indian colors store come close with an old going on today's episode is about increasing costs tensions in more than India when the Republicans from your phone news knew how great this challenge was but was a bit good
00:01:59after the constitution also the hidden lake in what's in what to do work us but cuscus not only not gonna be in more than India it continues to be a huge goals of social strife my guest today Shruti Rosco Gordon is a constitutional economists who teaches economics at
00:02:18purchase college in the state university of New York and describes herself as scored interested in the economic analysis of the legal and political institutions uncle she is your cost conference in India to an economic plans and I find analysis of cost absolutely fascinating is a conversation we had
00:02:37a few days ago should they welcome to the scene and the other thing I am it thanks for letting me should be screened seventy years since independence and I think one of the causes of our great shame is that we still haven't solved the biggest problem we started
00:02:52out with which is cost three when a country divided by many things but most of all I think you'd agree that it was Custer divided us and people came up with different solutions you know reservations book supposed to be part of the solution there are those who believe
00:03:05that as we move to us prosperity Costas distinctions will automatically %HESITATION disappeared open eyes Isshin will help but more and more refined India is a country divided on lines if identity with costing the biggest one of them and %HESITATION you know I've I've heard you talk about the
00:03:23structural reasons behind this from an economist's point of view so that's what I want to talk about today yeah I met up so I think you start identifying the problem correctly India started out as a highly fractionated society at the both of the Republic along the lines of
00:03:40religion cost language most more than anything else I am yet it is the cost fraction lies ation that has caused more tensions on a sort of been more exacerbated over the last seventy years %HESITATION and I think a large part of it is because of certain government policies
00:03:59so just to clarify cost is not a government created problem but the last seventy years of government policy one with the economic structure of socialism of Amanda sizing villages are you know some more specific stuff that we get to in a minute I think government policies have exacerbated
00:04:17the cost issue of rather than solving it so that's sort of the way I would think about it %HESITATION you also mention that I'm an economist and there is an economic point of view when you think about cost so let me just you know first to float put
00:04:36it out there that all the bullets practices we have in India cost is probably the very worst of them up I think it's appalling the we retreat about forty percent of our society up I think there is a high degree of couple cost elitism that is unforgivable and
00:04:58I'm just and should just not be accepted in modern day not having set that up and this is not apologizing for cost structures but just merely explaining it up the cost system has existed for a long time so I think first we need to acknowledge that it's not
00:05:17possible to just under which in a D. or even in %HESITATION in a couple of decades it will take a long time to go there are different kinds of cost practices that are problematic the most important being that you must follow the okay patient that belongs to your
00:05:34family I'm you cannot easily switch out of occupations I think that's one of the worst and then there are more or less been nine versions of state which isn't don't sell the kind of food you eat all or you know marriage in Dogmeat which is quite I'm also
00:05:52**** but it's also difficult to regulate people I'm Dr Drago so there are certain cost practices that I go to all of the morning train just going to take longer all going to be more consistent and a certain cost practices such as doors in the labor market which
00:06:09you should go are we which hadn't yet car we so thinking about this from that point of view I would post seat that you think about this is eighteen reasonable or human being who believe in liberty and justice up a liberal societies where each individual gets to make
00:06:28a choice about the type of individual they wish to become so the cost system is in the group at its very core no matter which way you slice it the fact that norm group is given a choice and some groups are superior to others on Bob's books your
00:06:46entire life your habits your occupation or you Maddie everything is set out for you and you have more choice in those decisions is fundamentally liberal society right now that's the liberty and justice problem what is the economic problems if you think about liberal markets or rather a market
00:07:08economy the core idea is that resources go to the highest valued use in a functional economy the cost system shackles human capital right so the cost system is an extremely market unfriendly of structure which actually interferes with the function of the market now what do we mean by
00:07:32shackles human capital now think of a Baker %HESITATION he was born in the community within the cost system he was predestined to follow some mean your occupation in the village are the highest he could have risen to which his family did tries to at that point in time
00:07:51was to join the British ministry which also had its cost segregation problems but you know he's got out of the village but okay across the state that's about the best he could have done given those cost structure and you could water Baker date his highest valued use was
00:08:08not to you know be a goal for the village in the back streets of a village carrying around his highest valued use is to write the union constitution and literally give birth to the Republic now the cost system interferes in this process so this is a really big
00:08:27problem if resources can operate the highest valued use how many cars are existing in India will completely invisible who could make their life better who could make Indian society so much better and cannot because they are trapped in a particular structure where it needs to control all the
00:08:49choices so that is the problem of the cost system if you think of it from the point of view all human capital in a market economy and the movement of human capital markets no big that identifies a problem and and this problem is something which was identified and
00:09:08brighter days by our phone does in a sense a bit good himself was one of the framers of the constitution what are the mistakes we've made in framing the solutions for this problem so again like I mentioned before government can create a cost system but there are certain
00:09:27economic policies it's followed that certainly exacerbate the cost system and I I think I can definitely identify for specific are problematic EDS with the government books are quite simple and along the lines of what we've been discussing that is the restrictions that the state places on the movement
00:09:50of physical capital especially agricultural physical capital in India and the second is the restrictions on movement of human capital so let me elaborate on that now when it comes to physical capital the idea is that physical capital also goes to its highest valued use and is not trapped
00:10:09in the hands of the human capital which is also shack work so for instance if you think of the existing cost divisions you know blacksmith uses blacks McDonald's apple costs have our landowning and of engaging farming and so on so right now in a market society the best
00:10:30person to be a blacksmith should be the person using the blacks and the best farmer should have that I get calls from them we don't have that system because of the number of restrictions that are on how property will switch hands so you already done a couple of
00:10:49court costs with some of our wonderful friends on our district she's in agriculture most importantly our land use in agriculture most states don't allow farmers to sell to non almost there is a lot of bureaucracy that isn't born in converting land from agriculture you was going to other
00:11:10uses this section of the landowning Klaas cannot exist that system very easy when if they wish to extend some other activities this is obviously mostly %HESITATION costs but call system dot shocker everybody to a certain extent right and this is an example of how it might shackled relatively
00:11:30well lock up across if you look at the kind of protest that are taking place and then get to deal with the pockets are some good shots couples under British one really big problems is these are landowning groups and the line is not as productive anymore and it's
00:11:48not very easy to exit agriculture the wait was in other countries and it will go into the truck all the way to go through productive or improvements in agriculture productive you suspended your people to engage in agriculture so now we have a situation but even all costs attitude
00:12:06well imagine this also in dorms all lower costs groups if you think of villages and we believe just up the highly segregated right normal cost group can just for more money and make up Beaglehole motor become mansion or trying to get access to goods and services this is
00:12:27directly related to how do these on these areas how do we manage land use and how to be easily converted land useful one tactic used to another tactic used for free movement of physical capital so sometimes physical capital doesn't have to look more like does in terms of
00:12:46the resource that it provides to society so the line can stay in the same place I moved from agriculture used to something completely different at all doctor and we don't allow that making the cost problem worse in the sense that it shackles people to what they were supposed
00:13:04to be at books which is determined by cost in India and pretty much nothing else the problem gets worse when you talk about shackling of people human capital if you are the son of a farmer and destined to be a fall or if you're the son of a
00:13:19bottle water then the structure is extremely problematic when it comes to you moving to your highest value right there was no constitution to be drafted in the beaker spillage on Baker happen so now how do we figure out a process by which groups that are not happy and
00:13:42this is more scandal costumes because you're you know decades and centuries of oppression but also in some cases up across groups were shackled in their particular occupation how do you teach you mostly leaf in the stages of development that in the eyes and present you usually when it
00:14:01is industrializing she added cities become bigger towns become bigger and manage action you let's start demanding more workers know what is happening in your with its horrifically labor law set up is that India has made it extremely difficult for entrepreneurs to Hyrule ebook to hire illegal form the
00:14:22so what happens is neighbors hired informally being don't have they estimate for we know that the former chair of the labor market is you know we need to go to the farmer's share some people see twice as big some people state three times as big so we know
00:14:38it's a very very large group so how do you think about that people are not easy he thought existing job gone to have an assurance that they be easy to get a new job you're a blacksmith in a village or cartoon of the church and its not the
00:14:56productive and your village is a hell hole when it comes to cost structures it's not easy for you to leave because no one will hire you and no one would hire you because the state has made it extremely difficult to hire people and skills that this is a
00:15:11big problem so when we think about it outside of the cost system what do you mean is that people should be easily able to move from one kind of units to another kind of in other words when an industry is booming and demanding more legal and human capital
00:15:29it should be able to free he thought industry I'm dying businesses that are not that I'm not using resources to the highest value you should be allowed to close right that's not the case in India so leave but is not able to more free so even without the
00:15:46parochial cost system we created a new cost system in India would label with our existing legal framework because people are stuck in the jobs that they get it's very difficult to switch jobs and it's very difficult to crossing the street and start new ones not act costs to
00:16:02this problem you get a particular situation where for each former jock there are ten people applying for it so of course the book was choosing among those applications can discriminate more easily based on her existing ostriches right so prejudice is much more easy to exercise what band is
00:16:24artificial shortages that a creator we've created an artificial shortage allow anyone in the formal economy who's doing the choosing can impose on their prejudices and back so I just wanted to clarify so essentially what you're saying is that because there is a scarcity of formal jobs there is
00:16:41far greater demand for them than the supply and the people who are in bulk and then we'll just choose a guy from his religion his costs or whatever and %HESITATION the second part of it yeah it's that it's very difficult for someone to need that three destined cost
00:16:59allotted occupation in the first place because it's very difficult to transition from one sector of the economy to other sectors sectors of the economy in India because it is so difficult to hire and fire in the book you know I was getting to that since the one you
00:17:14have the existing custom balances perpetuating themselves and others you have few will be blue lake someone trapped as a Porter no religion a blacksmith or whatever %HESITATION you have few one of them willing to actually make the move to what cities because most of the jobs of eleven
00:17:28will be informing jobs with no guarantees of security and %HESITATION you know unless chances of upscaling and so on %HESITATION is absolutely there is a thoracic to tackle the more informal the labor market the more you need to rely on pre existing networks which is mostly based on
00:17:48religion language and reporter is extremely entrepreneurial and actually managed to break out of the parochial village system when he reaches city only network you can reach out to is the existing cost network because no one else will accept right now that is the problem good why does he
00:18:08need that network she needs to survive because he's part of an extremely uncertain and vulnerable in the informal sector of the economy it gonna get a former jock in the process the people who look off to him are his cost community so we are sort of perpetuating because
00:18:26of the informer market structure we perpetuating list %HESITATION okay listen and it sort of in training open areas and this is very interesting to me because normally when we talk about these subjects like labor laws like not being able to sell agricultural land for non agricultural purposes we
00:18:43talk of them in the context of how you can %HESITATION you know the lack of economic freedom can get in the way of %HESITATION of the prosperity you know economic freedom leading to prosperity but what you're pointing out here is that it's not just about economics they actually
00:18:56exacerbate social divisions by reducing mobility absolutely honestly I north at the traditional way to think about cost is hegemonic power structures and there's a lot of medication that I'm I'm very interested in that extra but to me the cost system is entirely about economic freedom right so if
00:19:20you we have solved the entire country especially the most oppressed groups of better economic freedom so that's how I think about cost I don't think of it as a whole as economic freedom lost last something else this is a problem that is caused by robbing people of that
00:19:38economic choices and it is always the gotten worse because the entrance to practice or centuries and you know those things are very hard to get out of because the the persistent much and it took people often us sort of firm %HESITATION give economic freedom a bad name by
00:19:55making fun of trickle down economics but as I keep pointing out economic freedom actually destroy trickle up economics of benefits will first to the bottom and that's clearly not just in an economic sense in terms of money but also in a social sense in terms of empowering people
00:20:11by giving them the mobility to move to a better life absolutely whether you call this an economic choice social choice cost choice the fundamental point is when you restrict either through the cost system or by the government when you restrict people's choices you'll get in liberal societies and
00:20:31oppression when you remove those restrictions you got a number of ideas and prosperity we have seen this happen time and again if you read economic history there is an additional cost element which makes Indio more complex and interesting place but at the core of it it is an
00:20:48economic freedom argument it is the I as an individual should be allowed to make my choices and also some doesn't allow that because the test reloaded pretty much my entire life %HESITATION my patient my diet to the girl or boy I'm going to marry how many kids are
00:21:04going to have one language English speaking everything has been set up for me a book and it's impossible to get out should news your source dark I was for the good of falling these but the postal aspects which made the problem worse I would dress two more which
00:21:20are little more complicated he is India has not done a very good job of increasing policies basking only organically allow religious to transform themselves right I know we need yet there's a lot of romance about villages and bullets structures a lot of this nonsense comes from the Gandhian
00:21:43ideals villages a self sufficient republics but the reality of it is villages are cesspools all cost prejudice and horror in India right they are segregated every village you go to is basically a segregated town based off a cost it looks like it is based on economic prosperity and
00:22:06wealth but at the corporate it's cost because if no cost members actually need the money no August member would allow them to build a national street so villages segregate themselves not think of the problems attached to this all the public goods in the village was public goods are
00:22:26also segregated make use so we are living in cities reading stories like Alex Los and beaten for using ground and whether or something horrible like that public good allocation problem right and the public good allocation problem comes out of the fact that religious are segregated units now what
00:22:52do we need to solve this problem we need to make villages strong form under the current structure into a new structure do we India is of growing both in terms of population I'm in terms of economic growth you should not should be transformed into small towns and then
00:23:11like a bigger towns and then a small city in the big metropolitan eight if you think about it we have the same metropolitanate your eyes in India to be had during your G. they set it up we don't have too many villages transforming into open existing open centers
00:23:28transforming into bigger open why is that because we have put in village governments and levels of vintage governments which are not easy to cross all wonderful to another phone so what I was talking about previously when it came to land use restrictions and human capital restrictions apply back
00:23:49to public goods restrictions right local governments is a public co that's provided by the state and the state had made it impossible across all one kind of government system into another kind of government in order to done is it has reinforced and work but will kill kind of
00:24:08government which is a bunch I deducted suggestion with twist off reservation right but that doesn't solve the problem how public goods are determined allocated on how we get out of the village segregation system so there's a heart breaking bees I mean not just heartbreaking and makes you furious
00:24:30all had video shot by a big record nope you're no water no I haven't okay is it is it will make you upset and the matter %HESITATION and this is not just because of my love for beaker but I'm Baker walls as you know he did Mar community
00:24:48which is one of the untouchable groups at the time he was an exceptional student who went and excelled in the school activities but there were times when he wasn't allowed to sit inside a colossal he had to sit outside the classroom and because they will pollute the environment
00:25:05he had a caddy like a gunny bag you know those brown sax you would have to carry his one sack and come and sit outside the classroom to learn in the one of the biggest problems with access to water apple costs one touch water that is used by
00:25:21low cost so that would be a PMR what show up and or water from about four feet above him so that he does not touch I'm beaker or anyone of that cost I'm that's whole beagle will get access to water it didn't show up that day to squeeze
00:25:40a Baker had to go without water that date if you chose to not right this is Pacific the fact that a beaker did what he did is exceptional brewer grateful he got to write about it and get to read about it what is horrific is this cat he's
00:25:57on to the present day according to me the only way to break out of the system is a religious stronghold in a village everyone knows everyone everyone knows everyone grandparents that costs there you know all of family secrets occupations there's a very real power structure between families which
00:26:18was created by cost sometimes the only way to fix that problem Mr exit right I'm villages store allow easy except for two reasons one the garden structures not allowed to change so we're just gonna transform themselves and we have to open areas which are extremely %HESITATION kind to
00:26:40strangers when they show up so it's very daunting for someone was being treated like a beaker when it comes to water access to leave the religion actually gore the city where your don't know anyone and cities are not very good easier way strangers can you show up and
00:26:57get a job gonna introduce to be okay can I interrupt you for a second and also to elaborate on can asking a lot but it in what do you mean by governance structures %HESITATION not being allowed to change but despite the large institutions right all what don is
00:27:14we have we levels of local government and if you remember we did a walk cost on one of them which was the open locally parties when we talk about this because federalism and eat their village Dr part is the punch IT Arjun's did you should know if you
00:27:30think about this like an economist the weak economic growth takes place religious should automatically convert themselves into smaller towns bigger downs bigger cities right which means bunch I derived institutions should shows can only be able to transform into open local bodies the seventy third and seventy fourth amendment
00:27:50have no provision to convert but chai tea large government into an so does that mean when a village gets be good an entry to stone size it is still owned by law forced to remain with the structure of governance that is most will do exactly exactly I'm more
00:28:08suitable for a village that gun the imagine not beat could imagine yeah act right low cost have ruled Greek drama and stood with village structures in the way that high cost because low cost hundred water unless the high cost you shows up so there's a reason for this
00:28:25rule Manson billet structures we must point out that it's not that it will cost who had this romance it's the apple costs %HESITATION by that we don't even know the I know these groups mostly up across have written into law structures written into the constitution structures that cannot
00:28:44easily be transformed from one kind all governments need to another kind of governments me in fact there's no wait there's no provision to change from open shaggy dog institution and went over local body you fundamentally doing the same thing which is local governments but there are there school
00:29:03corporation is actually quite different the way they are elected is quite right so this is a very big problem this is not just a problem from a cost point of view problem from a cold winters you but it's totally exacerbates the cost problem because it keeps the bullet
00:29:19structure like and I think the Indian village structure just needs to go or like there is just mocking god you believe in it date this will kind of injustice that it has perpetuated undies Willis structure your singing is reflected in the bunch at the adult system that's why
00:29:35it's a problem right yes absolutely the only thing that is interesting about the new car jacking got system versus the old is that the one one was on August man the new twist to the punch IT dot system is that there are some reservations for low cost to
00:29:53that's literally the only twist right think about it even with those reservations and things like that the jeep that segregation and live in the village is too small structure to forget right and what is the need to forget it needs to forget the cost or what they think
00:30:12is people's predestined future structure in itself is not able to do that too few people Eddie persistent and entrenched institutions are truly sticky gum cost you gonna get rid of those problems without getting rid of the structure so how do we get to the root structure make it
00:30:31easier for religious to transform a make it easier for people to leave the village we haven't done right so that's reason number three data back policies keep people trapped in villages and and your name is good but partly by a %HESITATION fixing the structure of government to what
00:30:48does an archaic structure to the bench ideology which includes the existing %HESITATION social inequalities within itself okay so the fourth point that I want to get to is a little bit controversial this is the whole reservation system in India right we have what I like to dog constitutionalist
00:31:10cost and what I mean by that is we have read in the constitutional protections and exceptions to constitutional protections certain reservations are you know secured positions for certain costs groups I'm back according to me has meet the cost problem was okay now at the time of independence there
00:31:32was a need for upliftment of certain costs we can debate what was the better system of occurs when we came down the cost reservations that is what was chosen now having said that everyone including a beaker was a champion of B. what needed for too long right there
00:31:53are certain provisions of the constitution that was supposed to relax or something losses that are supposed to lapse it be Daniels unless it's extended every ten years as a constitutional amendment to extend those protections so what happened is that what unlike what a beaker imagined the cost problem
00:32:11has persisted for seventy years and it has actually gotten worse so now let me trying to unpack this now I fully understand that I speak from a position of privilege when it comes to any kind of you know educational protection up cost projections on what but I still
00:32:30want to unpack this a little bit so let me see what the cost reservation system is doing both low cost groups across groups not think about reservations think about it in terms of the size of an existing by either which is a few slices are allotted to certain
00:32:50groups well most of these are admissions in educational institutions armed all reservations in government jobs that is really the core of what's going on so what does this mean in terms of making cost problems better or worse not if you think of for certain society where the size
00:33:12of the pie is not growing such as a socialist society you know India with its Hindu rate of growth and so on so forth I use not drawing more more people become extremely agitated and start heating the ideals certain groups getting a few slices of the particular by
00:33:32right now what happens other groups also warned that protection date once the one certain slices of the pie complete each itself for that unfortunately unless the size of the pie grows each additional group that gets that protection or preloaded slice of the pie is going to reduce the
00:33:52allotment of every other group right so if there are twenty percent of the seats preloaded to particular groups and more groups one that protection I'd be increased twenty percent limit or your encroaching from other groups what is the problem with this the problem is regionally it started out
00:34:13as a protection for D. most historically oppressed Kasson tribes I Republic age we have included more and more groups and now the lord is relatively low cost groups that have nothing to do with historical oppression that walked the same reservation of protection a lot to get that right
00:34:35%HESITATION an example of this is the party the hours are the couples they are not historically oppressed but do you feel they have a gross given the current system where they're educated landowning Gloucester the con find jobs so they need some protection which is government protection so what
00:34:52they want they want the existing number of government jobs to be geologic he want the lines redrawn so that they are included in it right now discloses a problem with historically oppressed groups because they feel that there are new Oppel costume squatting coaching what was originally promised to
00:35:11that this is a very big source of tension in India so the original classification of scheduled cost can you tribes and other back what classes has more and more groups being included in it I'm more groups more groups agitating to be included in it almost on a daily
00:35:30basis so using good Juraj Dacians music couple educations the most recent is %HESITATION the party the R. I. D. seven judges in the new political judgment how down on my doctors in motor straw and all the landowning because like you pointed out because the size of the lawn
00:35:47with the generation strings so now think about this you haven't fixed size of the pie more and more people want the protection because it gives you a job without doing anything in the cockpit gives you promises you certain benefits promotion so on so forth however each additional group
00:36:05that gets in won't get that gets included in the protection means two things existing groups this protection is less valuable and sometimes just less because the body is not growing and second is the general category which is also why the upper class right the non oppressed group Strother
00:36:22the oppressors are not included in this production and many of them up for their economically people even if they are socially poor so now there is new agitations where there's even more she triggered or some sense of %HESITATION disagreement between doors costumes and the new costumes if you
00:36:41notice what is happening in India is for nineteen fifty that is before reservations I hope the stories from great grandparents school just tend to be politically incorrect and extremely prejudiced but they would talk about certain costs groups as trying to mimic up across practices that is you press
00:37:04groups were desperate to exit the situation right up the monitors are a great example exiting the parochial village structure and joining the British Army gave other groups or would India which tried to exit that but okay structure and the make up right I'm using these words and highly
00:37:23contextual absolutely thought they were moving up in the social and the cost now what you see in present day India is the exact dribble suspect someone who was born in the low cost or you know previously low cost us should you call should your tribes they want to
00:37:43hold on to that that identity means everything to them identity at the time a book if you don't put it on the books certificate if they don't have the right to last name or they don't have a community vouching for that cost they're not going to get the
00:37:58reservation protection which means we want to hold on to that cost identity how do you break down cost you need individuals to be incentivized to leave their cost identity what we have done is constitutional lies the problem we have incentivize groups toward all along stronger than ever before
00:38:19to that cost identity because that is what gets them the benefit okay so not no this is in no way taking away from the fact that they looked groups have been oppressed I need me to you that there is a particular are dry T. justified reason why the
00:38:36need greater social protection so on so forth I'm not arguing against how do you feel about it what I'm arguing against is the a bit good idea I'm gonna talk costs would disappear how does cost disappear individuals from different cost decide to shed that cost identity and move
00:38:55on to something else on the constitution this incentivize as you incentivize people to hold on to that identity and that community that I find extremely problematic right up liberal market called me with make you want to shake your costs change your name to a new place where the
00:39:17bed okay structure doesn't shackle you what we're doing is the exact reverse of that this is not to say that certain costs don't have an emotional attachment to their networks or their community that they don't have any respect for shared his treat you may want to hold on
00:39:33to it just because we've just seen a protest which started with a two hundred year would battle right up so they may be reasons emotional reasons toward all door historical issue are you identity I'm not talking about those reasons I'm talking about the tactical economic reasons we have
00:39:53managed to this incentivize people to exit dash Costa book which I think is very very important for them on this phone but was just sort of philosophical level is that if we all agree as we surely do not discriminating on the basis of cost is wrong what is
00:40:12efficient they are discrimination on the basis of cost new perpetuity the ill feeling between costs at the how can that be a solution well we we have reservations presently is also the shuttle big problems with it analog up delegates groups and valid scholars also agree up the problem
00:40:35being that it's only the cream off the ledge groups will get the benefits actually get access or protections from these reservations you need to have completed school right you need to go from Kate folk well actually have your high school certificate to be able to stick for exams
00:40:56or to gain admission in these elite institutions most of the parochial Philip structure does not allow dialect children to be educated properly so what are we talking about we're not talking about Dallek's will manage to exit the parochial system and who can actually get the benefit as opposed
00:41:15to the people it was originally intended and who are in fact also sorry so let's also okay knowledge that there is now a division even within the historically oppressed groups and other communities where certain a certain portion of that group which is already well all is gaining a
00:41:34lot of those benefits wildly historically oppressed just remain a pressed for the BDS reasons that I mentioned which is %HESITATION shocking of the physical capitalism capitalist system saw in pursuit of the benefits of food reservations even for the let's really go to the privileged outlines among the delegates
00:41:51to begin with absolutely there's a lot of constitutional jurisprudence on this with respect to how you treat the creamy mail which is mainly you know the well off layered the group that's already received the privileges of the benefits amongst the other back would cost up there is there
00:42:08is a lot of politics and %HESITATION you know all all jurisprudence from the highest courts and the Supreme Court on this matter this is not a new program we note that this problem exists so the first part of the reservation problem is it actually doesn't go to the
00:42:24people that it was really intended to you know how but the problem the other three modes supported this idea the second part of it as you mentioned is it makes cost tensions worse because it makes everyone or doctor when I eat and then there's only a certain fixed
00:42:44size of the pie each call getting a little bigger or smaller size is going to take away from another group or get another group that causes a lot of tension despite go the the garlic groups are absolutely right in the sense that these reservations what you believe in
00:43:02them or not interview was still populist the historically oppressed a lot of the groups asking for these protections today on Wall historically oppressed they are just will crest in the modern socialist system because they can't get jobs that's their mortar the oppression right so there is a genuine
00:43:21our reason for the kind of pensions that Robert up because the original promises made to certain groups whether you agree with them or north and so before we move on from here let me just try and some of the four points you made so far and tell me
00:43:35if that's accurate the first thing the government did wrong was in setting policies which reduced is economic freedom and their full number one entry %HESITATION did use a mobility off resources for example you can select because for land for non agricultural purposes and therefore you are trapped in
00:43:53that sense number to introduce mobility off levo because %HESITATION you know the labor laws mender there was a very large informal sector and what the laws of the formal sector people would deign to choose from among dead %HESITATION you know %HESITATION dead electives are there because they're for
00:44:09%HESITATION perpetuating the the public imbalances that then existed the toward problem was dead village governance structures word okay as they are constitutionally so they weren't allowed to change even if the Wii digital be good and could have become a down and those imbalances again and %HESITATION segregated religious
00:44:28winter flicked it and ossified within those bunch at the dot structures and the four point being that the system of reservations which was laid out with good intentions and championed early on by %HESITATION I'm good good went wrong in a number of different ways number one the benefits
00:44:44would you intend to go to the older de privileged people among the custard they were supposed to go to to begin with the the the most oppressed of the lord number two they expanded to include radius other costs and sub costs number three the piety main fixed bird
00:45:01though did they're demanding creased with as a supply didn't indict let degree to conflict and all of this conflict was framed in terms of cost identity S. costs which would only %HESITATION back in the day they would make up now began to mimic down because of this you
00:45:16see lollipop both of government jobs in government seats in education institutions and %HESITATION costing shins actually became worse because of all this is that can affect it or to have a love something about I would just which is one of eight or forty shoes you right arm right
00:45:35right we are disincentive by G. H. E. R. good books certain your our human I'm just the calls B. being center or individuals to share costs and you he is order crosses we are actually doing the all very much and stronger just Hey oracle or forty she was
00:46:14our high right and I should all thinking about Costco so %HESITATION my for loop question then dead instead again putting your economics had gone what would you do about this what is the V. out of the stable Nestor to be out in the first thing we need to
00:46:35do is acknowledge that outside any stated dimensional state exacerbations people need to change our book Austin eats in India I have just one link in the kind of prejudice and bigotry that they have displayed so in simple things which are actually very big things like making sure that
00:46:55your your house were hit it use your restroom or up gets access to water all the same water sources you do even though you live in the fancy you know let me open she lacked in Danielle Colby these problems persist and there's No Way Out of it except
00:47:12for people to change their minds and correct that the so the question did you really asking is what can the speech to write we know what people can do they can become you know better be heat so what can the speech so again I would identify the four
00:47:29areas where all state all positive and negative action can I think improve the situation and what I mean by improve the situation is there's nothing the state can really do to make the cost system group what I can do is create better just individual organically you do you
00:47:52so let me start with the first the first is that the state just needs to get out of the week when it comes to restrictions are physical and human capital it needs to liberalize the economy back liberalization Mostar west most basic clever I think the ledge and then
00:48:11walked in labor order forms which are really more open problem which also affected each so getting out of the week that is removing or lifting restrictions on agriculture you're moving in lifting restrictions on hiring and firing of people in manufacturing units old does things the state can do
00:48:31it should do we know what that the socialist licensing just stricter economy is making the cost problem what so even though you're moving those restrictions water leak across the window overnight it will not make it worse right it would make it easier for people to assist so that
00:48:54is the thirty first now in this moment you can add a laundry list of all the restrictions that need to be removed you've actually done a great job without talking about car on the kind of restrictions that need to be listed in all your previous episodes so you
00:49:10can all make a bouquet of those restrictions and that's the first thing to do basically anything that increases economic freedom and dead by in increases social mobility exactly exactly I couldn't avoid it better the second point is also the action on the part of the state advert positive
00:49:27action I mean the basic dos of this state which is to provide public goods and services what our public goods it's things like sewage rolled you know any public amenities so think about something like switch now which is a classic public good in the sense that there's a
00:49:46collective action problem that needs to be overcome not think about switch and the sewage system and the cost for the Dixon India as you know there are other groups that were untouchable because they were segregated into an occupation that the now politely called cabbage now I know scavenging
00:50:06is essentially there were certain groups and this was their job by both they were supposed to come and clean out the lack genes of the apple cost homes they were never allowed into the house I mean nowhere close to the vicinity of the house data coming through the
00:50:21back door keynote those black jeans up human excreta in their hands put it on the head and walk to the next form to the scene and then buried somewhere in the there was a cost that was store to do this job it was oppressed not because the dealt
00:50:41with human waste the %HESITATION costs insisted that the contact the water source and so on so forth and it would contaminate it this office he persisted Corp was caught more entrenched and they became untouchables not allowed to live in the village happened outside but provided the most crucial
00:50:58service that you need in a village in March now think about how public goods provisioning can make this problem better so I recently wrote a book this is a bit of a tangent but it's crucial to this point corps where India grew buy coffee Diane coffee indeed it's
00:51:16an excellent book basically talks about the open defecation problem in India I would talk about how many countries that water than India but that don't defecate in the open because actually lack dreams are not that difficult to build our access and even lower levels of income one of
00:51:36the first few things deeper doing things like that yeah is that they get access to electric now in India the government has been building elections for people and they want to use the use the my storage units children's playgrounds washing area they don't use them or that you
00:51:51can use the actually go out and you why is that the case is because of cost and ritual purity all costs will not be not relaxing but that one hands because these are not connected to a switch system so it's not like your box two men mind where
00:52:08we just lash out all all the unpleasant stuff just goes wait so you need to manually pumped out the Latino keynote by hammer and uncle costs just used to dealing with human excretion even their order families which means that they will still continue to go out in the
00:52:26open which means that now we are persisting a particular occupation of manual scavenging we made it bigger than ever before because of population growth in U. P. this problem is worse than it was even twenty thirty years ago because of the numbers that Iraqi I'm this group has
00:52:44to continue doing this job and has no choice because it deals with human there is even greater oppression in mortar beat when you have every kind of you know how do you access that you could possibly think all except so the book I was talking about was talking
00:53:04about open defecation and how we treat an infant mortality and killing our children but the part that I found interesting even though the book is not suggesting at this kind of a magic bullet solution the part that I find interesting is Oppel costs will increase toilets as long
00:53:21as it's connected to a sewage system they will launch transitions can only from open defecation in collections that need to be pumped up clean manually interests with so what does the government need to do instead of giving subsidies to swatch Botica beyond like capital it's everywhere what all
00:53:40it needs to dig up towns and villages and provides the sewage system that is very difficult to do it's not a profitable for anyone to do that the benefits are very far in the future all the costs are too deep because you want to take up entire towns
00:53:54city so nobody wants to build our increase the capacity of the sewage systems so in India we have more functional so its system and despite economic growth we continue to go out in the open ankle tres costs into doing terrible jobs and then treating them badly for doing
00:54:12those jobs well so this I would highlight as an example all data public goods provisioning like switch system like like water sources will actually make the cost problem better right it reduced segregation actually improve the lot of certain groups which are not just historically oppressed but also pressed
00:54:34to present day and what if I get to assist him as having been made so far in such large parts of the country also have something to do with structures of local governments and the kind of incentives in play so it's like a vicious losing to fix everything
00:54:48well I don't think it's a vicious circle in the sense that one perpetuates the although I think it's a it's a fundamental problem if you saw the fundamental problem all the other problems will automatically start seeing solutions it's a constitutional problem off giving groups benefits to reservations even
00:55:07at the local governments lover I'm not giving them responsibilities and revenue raising a city I mean there's a constitutional solution to all these problems I don't think of it as a vicious circle in that one problem that you with the next and then it comes back to the
00:55:21beginning I meant I meant it as a vicious circle in the sense that %HESITATION structures of local governments are deeply flawed and yet the only people who can actually do something about it %HESITATION does %HESITATION who benefit from them so long to get there yeah it's very difficult
00:55:38the sewage system in the particular lease you because you know or are disposed which is everyone will benefit all better switch all calls are up concentrate which means your existing operator all or I would eat out will bear the cost because everyone abuses common when they do get
00:56:03right yours to build a functional system we know that everyone's of using people when they're taking off and also present the benefits of water she needs there's a fundamental each street or car I would actually so you can watch makes actually or underground street just but dad doesn't
00:56:34give opportunity for so many photo ops so you know what he or do what I do and just so much or just there are some people who have right giving everyone out and this is you have the best of intentions Reno will restore your because our system that
00:57:01is attached to this problem and religious sects just uses the goal rate for say we talk about persisting it's already right so if it persists and one last night so we want to solve the problem the cost problem and you can go either way okay I will cost
00:57:30you gotta okay nor should exist find with policy solution around eight so that we can improve water factors one is the feet and the second is removal pression of untouchable groups that are present be treated as a possible because the very let your absolute if you can change
00:57:51their mind said building with the with the system %HESITATION what's your next point on what the government can do so the first part was get our second is actually to your queue all right public goods and services that you were supposed to better I want now you remember
00:58:10when you were talking about the problems hi how are you on this occasion extends religious or how bad this unique stands wrong use water use artist slowly all around me right governments I think you took over the streets each all forms your children are forced to sit outside
00:58:46are also your marketing access to the young girls are as the other girls at all costs wasn't hygiene issue these problems your report should not make it harder one part of the easier it is your right to education hi rock the yacht and beach all exceptional he was
00:59:21eager to get costs and to teach most stock market most young girls there you know all all daughters to school access to a restroom post you put these important proverbs every hand off so situational watch not this but I think we're all sort of your press especially if
00:59:58you're what about just dial is always better the school also I'm not historically not to see you are have a gun many many thanks bye each other but this morning structure interested the British but she what exactly is wrong by Klasky wrestle cost no cost what is not
01:00:41so the school she thanks if you you just would not allow you to use or if you will or are you part share Walker job as your last name all cost you can we're all war is war restrooms by meeting them you're ready to walk we don't have
01:01:14so you think we should just everywhere right not just this all cost your seats even working the ball just system actually has a lot education across it always answer you just I don't know how you or solving the gospel Baker was born your costs are all he should
01:01:48have shop we only provide better school which are you willing oxalate accentuation saw only by about just and %HESITATION you know I've been reading was school vouchers for almost fifteen years as you know and this is the first time I've actually talked about it in the context of
01:02:09cost you always think about it in the context of economics education or whatever %HESITATION but you know headed is could play a part in %HESITATION making society function better I think you're going what you're seeing is J. sure exactly each school is more of a problem at all
01:02:36choices eight eight right school Marchessault gold cost or not school is more and I think I I think there you were watching your name is cool %HESITATION Jews impossible parents with choice and any kind of impoverishment obviously a price for everybody %HESITATION what's your fourth point on what
01:03:02the government could do the fourth point is the hardest to solve and it's gonna be sought the fourth point is that this kind of constitutional ideational needs to go so what was done by the by the judgment which just walk back or you said you saw the job
01:03:22although being kind makes you don't somewhere generally stress armed groups are trying to get however orders he should be back so there was a particular number which team twenty two point five percent or get your costume right I'm twenty seven percent for all the back with you need
01:03:49to stop recording hello this is she order beat the judgment day more than what the original cost you should also you should never eat I never was right distorted what group and workers so what we need is for weeks under the reservation policy advocacy groups right now what
01:04:20is the one that judge Moore groups one they are thank you one nine point five percent there're all of them so what logging in getting section of the records which reached by adding there in order to see in particular prostitution can you just briefly Weiss %HESITATION once you
01:04:54surely it also by sh so what if you want an extraction from your %HESITATION fireman to write books and you usually or shut down your I want about this extensively for all your magazine she was one interesting thing about right Baker is that %HESITATION reservation are not all
01:05:30the reservation was whether all forty nine I think sixty nine percent of the bush and somewhere in the east our goal by quick search from LAX getting what you eat is there are some gesture not just jot each one is lobbying for issue Oscar nor is country walk
01:06:04and then nobody he's right and increase offering right so what we have done in this complicated story is the constitutional even when I'm construction there is a real number used to keep fixing and tweaking the rules of the limits though %HESITATION caramel sauce which the council or are
01:06:38you the couples do unify the actually work before work back the triangle she this is all now when I say this needs to goal I unfortunately don't have are you know you can go a lot of the choices you the transition each track which is your %HESITATION this
01:07:06is your system will be more questions for me competition is we know that all the best word all in a given I think yes yeah I mean given the nature of our democracy and the fact that or not politics is essentially identity politics this is a game no
01:07:30we should circle it's pretty much impossible to solve this is very difficult to solve and I think I will keep yeah right we need to create job opportunities for Jack to me he will be ready to get out of you should thank you warn people are as you
01:07:59know all this is amber Portwood dishes to fix this problem by only and creating more jobs March the scene back the economy is actually making the problem worse now what she's so are you able to create jobs right like the one you have one the one I have
01:08:29this is we're not actually I which law we need to find a market at all everyone goes through the ages and she's the only break your back is to create a larger why that everyone can share that is which I can agree with you more I think it's
01:08:54the impossible enough individuals and change their incentives to thing beyond the because system than the incentive so politicians in the political marketplace also changed that's our only hope in the long term through the tanks so much for your time I've learned a lot today it was great having
01:09:09you on the show gang summit that's always great fun speaking if you enjoy the show I don't know what is seen on senior day and for all reviews at the source of the scene in the on scene which include a few we should be as right as you
01:09:24can for the shooting on Twitter estructural button and you can follow me I come with what what am I to be eight despite cost is produced in partnership with IBM goes and I encourage you to check out more or less by them right downloading the idea of what
01:09:40costs at best for doing them see you next week if you enjoy listening to the scene in the on scene check out another show but I V. import because simplified which is hosted by my good friends noting Chuck and she could you can download it on any or
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