Full Transcript for A Close Look at NC Public Safety with Interim Secretary Casandra Hoekstra

really saw is DMV. 00:04:50.400 --> 00:04:54.540 Other things they have no idea are happening or not happening that might affect 00:04:54.540 --> 00:04:58.320 their safety, that might affect their health. I mean, we talked about the infant 00:04:58.320 --> 00:05:03.330 formula, that there's federal and state folks that check that. 00:05:03.948 --> 00:05:07.440 Elevator inspectors. Elevator inspectors. That's a really critical job. 00:05:07.440 --> 00:05:11.231 And when you get in one, you're just trusting that this thing's good to go. 00:05:12.044 --> 00:05:18.313 I think that therein lies the problem. We just saw public employees two years ago get no raise. 00:05:18.424 --> 00:05:21.620 This past year, a very, very tiny raise. 00:05:22.711 --> 00:05:27.750 Despite inflation being so high. Now, I don't think the legislature did that 00:05:27.750 --> 00:05:30.089 because they dislike state employees. 00:05:30.525 --> 00:05:33.056 They did it because they said they didn't have more money than that. 00:05:33.967 --> 00:05:37.200 That's a problem because what you're going to end up getting is bottom-of-the-barrel 00:05:37.200 --> 00:05:44.200 people to do very important jobs like build, inspect our bridges that we're 00:05:44.200 --> 00:05:48.551 driving across with our kids, inspect our elevators that we're getting in with our kids. 00:05:48.772 --> 00:05:50.890 Repairing roads across the state. 00:05:51.250 --> 00:05:54.330 Yeah. And then we do more and more outsourcing of the roads, 00:05:54.330 --> 00:05:56.770 which leads to your pet peeve, Sammy. 00:05:57.190 --> 00:06:02.590 Construction delays, especially on Blue Ridge Road. You got Lenovo Center there. 00:06:02.590 --> 00:06:05.350 The state there takes place off of Blue Ridge Road. 00:06:05.559 --> 00:06:09.590 All of these different major events take place there. And there is a construction 00:06:09.590 --> 00:06:13.755 project that was supposed to be done in 2023 that is still going on. 00:06:14.719 --> 00:06:18.335 I mean, and you'll just get more and more of that because if you don't have, 00:06:18.904 --> 00:06:23.460 the money to do it properly and you just start shoving these things off and 00:06:23.460 --> 00:06:26.091 the money stretches over time that you're spending. 00:06:26.700 --> 00:06:31.720 So it doesn't look like it's as bad, but you're spending ultimately a lot more 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:36.017 money to accomplish what could have been accomplished more efficiently and more economically. 00:06:36.366 --> 00:06:41.380 So when people say, hey, I don't want any more of my taxes going to the government 00:06:41.380 --> 00:06:47.530 anyway, they're missing kind of the point that what you are paying is supposed to protect you. 00:06:47.530 --> 00:06:51.380 And it's apparently not enough. If it were, then the legislature, 00:06:51.380 --> 00:06:56.220 unless they just dislike state employees, would be paying more to folks for 00:06:56.220 --> 00:06:59.300 those state employee jobs, and they would be treating retirees better. 00:06:59.960 --> 00:07:01.541 And that's the one I was going to bring up. 00:07:02.208 --> 00:07:05.140 I mean, retirees aren't getting colas now. 00:07:05.580 --> 00:07:08.760 Yeah. If this goes through, I don't see how they would ever be able to give, 00:07:08.760 --> 00:07:10.376 the legislature would ever give one. 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:14.776 Well, the retirement system is a three-legged stool in terms of funding. 00:07:15.374 --> 00:07:20.001 One is the gains or profit on investments that the treasurer makes for the system. 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:24.192 Two is what employees put in, 6% of their check every month. 00:07:24.470 --> 00:07:30.426 And three is whatever the General Assembly puts in as an employer contribution, and that varies. 00:07:31.089 --> 00:07:35.820 In recent years, it's had to be a good amount of money the General Assembly's had to put in. 00:07:37.020 --> 00:07:41.688 And if the General Assembly had less money and had to cut back on that, 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:48.161 this COLA that it looks like Treasurer Briner is very close to getting retirees would go away. Yeah. 00:07:48.947 --> 00:07:55.020 So, yeah. And the other amendment, Amendment 3, deals with the property tax 00:07:55.020 --> 00:07:57.977 levy limit. Similar idea, I guess. 00:07:58.377 --> 00:08:02.064 More effective and I guess local governments than state ones but, 00:08:03.055 --> 00:08:07.420 You could see a scenario where their costs would be kicked up to the state and 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:10.260 taken up with the state budget because they have less funding. 00:08:10.260 --> 00:08:13.490 There were things in the big, beautiful bill that got passed down to the states, 00:08:13.490 --> 00:08:16.250 and then the states have shoved some of those down to the cities and counties 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:19.042 in terms of, you know, here, this is now on you. 00:08:19.402 --> 00:08:24.730 And cities and counties, we have a lot of members who work in local government, 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:29.015 whether it's city or county. We've got a lot of police officers in scenic at this point. 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.155 We've got a lot of folks who work in schools. 00:08:32.975 --> 00:08:37.256 If you strap these cities and counties, first of all, you're always going to 00:08:37.256 --> 00:08:40.966 have more money. They find a way to get money another way because they're going 00:08:40.966 --> 00:08:43.731 to have to have money to continue to fund things. 00:08:44.033 --> 00:08:47.626 So for cities and counties, you're either going to see them embracing things 00:08:47.626 --> 00:08:50.836 like data centers because they have to because there's no other way to get the 00:08:50.836 --> 00:08:54.748 money or more fines, more fees. Same with the state. 00:08:55.294 --> 00:09:00.626 If there's a tax cap and that tax cap has moved down so low, 00:09:01.091 --> 00:09:06.776 that they're just suffocated, our economic growth

is not enough to support us 00:09:06.776 --> 00:09:10.413 at that tax cap level, then you're going to see more fines, more fees, 00:09:10.698 --> 00:09:13.576 more things that hit the working class disproportionately. 00:09:13.576 --> 00:09:18.180 And that's why Scenic took action. It's like, look, we usually try to stay out of this tax mess. 00:09:20.125 --> 00:09:26.106 But the big but, how do you stay out of it when, again, the philosophy is if 00:09:26.106 --> 00:09:30.766 we have a strong enough economy, this won't matter. We can cap it very, very low. 00:09:31.438 --> 00:09:36.366 Well, apparently the economy's not been strong enough to pay adequately for 00:09:36.366 --> 00:09:41.237 state employees and take care of retirees who gave their whole career, 00:09:41.806 --> 00:09:42.696 you know, making less than they 00:09:42.696 --> 00:09:47.036 would have in the private sector to try to get some crumbs at the end. 00:09:47.483 --> 00:09:52.266 And so if we're not even able to do that, then our economy's not strong enough for this. 00:09:52.786 --> 00:09:58.006 The thing I keep seeing thrown up on social media in response to our announcement 00:09:58.006 --> 00:10:02.286 and just the debate in general is, you know, well, Florida doesn't even have 00:10:02.606 --> 00:10:05.159 an income tax or Texas doesn't even have. 00:10:05.635 --> 00:10:09.766 But they also have huge property taxes. Right. They shove it down. 00:10:09.766 --> 00:10:13.306 Yeah. And sales tax. Oh, yeah. I mean. So they're going to get their money. 00:10:13.966 --> 00:10:18.621 My oldest son has, you know, his home is in Florida and he'll tell you all about it. 00:10:19.068 --> 00:10:23.146 And plus Florida is like a tourist haven. So to get a lot of money coming in 00:10:23.146 --> 00:10:24.327 that way, it's different, but... 00:10:25.099 --> 00:10:30.050 It's a very complicated issue. I couldn't help but draw a little bit from our 00:10:30.050 --> 00:10:34.730 last discussion with Thomas Friedman about the health plan in that the comments 00:10:34.730 --> 00:10:36.740 we were getting on that post, 00:10:37.499 --> 00:10:42.020 you know, about the atrium situation, was the state government should just pay 00:10:42.020 --> 00:10:45.049 for whatever it is that atrium charges. 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.860 Well, they obviously could not if they had a limit like this, right? 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:52.826 Right. They would just—your health plan would probably for—. 00:10:53.928 --> 00:10:57.264 Moving forward would be here. We're going to give you a little bit of money 00:10:57.264 --> 00:11:00.998 and you go find health care with that, which would not be good health care. 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:05.454 So that's the reason these things, putting handcuffs, 00:11:05.954 --> 00:11:13.966 obviously any general assembly needs to react and legislate and appropriate 00:11:14.373 --> 00:11:17.113 responsibly using fiscal discipline. 00:11:17.362 --> 00:11:21.554 The idea is if they don't, they'll be voted out in two years. Yeah. 00:11:21.914 --> 00:11:27.464 But what we an odd concept is for to expect the public who is not looking at 00:11:27.464 --> 00:11:31.254 the books, not looking at what the needs of each agency are, 00:11:31.254 --> 00:11:36.199 probably can't tell you because they're living their lives, performing their jobs. 00:11:36.583 --> 00:11:39.694 They've got so much going on. There's no way they can tell you what each agency 00:11:39.694 --> 00:11:41.395 does or what the needs there are. 00:11:41.784 --> 00:11:46.024 So the public, that's the reason the public, you don't put those things on the 00:11:46.024 --> 00:11:50.973 ballot, because who's going to say, no, I don't want to cap it low. 00:11:51.321 --> 00:11:53.133 I want you to be able to tax me more. 00:11:53.492 --> 00:11:56.954 No one's going to say that. But if you frame it differently and say, 00:11:56.954 --> 00:11:58.850 look, you willing to roll the dice? 00:11:59.158 --> 00:12:04.040 Maybe some infant formula gets through that is not is not the best. 00:12:04.694 --> 00:12:08.614 Then all of a sudden, wait a minute. No, you better provide me good services. 00:12:08.614 --> 00:12:11.621 Keep me healthy. Make sure law enforcement has what they need. 00:12:11.958 --> 00:12:18.154 It's like if they were to reword it and say, limit public resources to all the 00:12:18.154 --> 00:12:22.018 state, would you vote for it then? Yeah, exactly. 00:12:22.721 --> 00:12:26.904 Good analogy there. I think it's also interesting that the property tax debate 00:12:26.904 --> 00:12:31.524 is coming up at a time when huge corporations are trying to build data centers 00:12:31.524 --> 00:12:34.934 that will cost lots in property taxes. 00:12:36.694 --> 00:12:37.262 Maybe... 00:12:37.993 --> 00:12:41.189 Right. I mean, it's not popular. All right. So if you ask people, 00:12:41.189 --> 00:12:44.273 do you want data centers, they pretty much say no. 00:12:45.069 --> 00:12:50.829 But if you ask people, do you want a cap on your property tax? Yes. 00:12:52.019 --> 00:12:57.269 Without them realizing the very next step. There also could very well have to 00:12:57.269 --> 00:13:01.469 be data centers for county commissioners who have to balance the budget. 00:13:02.735 --> 00:13:07.106 I think they're talking about building one in Sanford. I think it got approved 00:13:07.373 --> 00:13:10.669 already. So I may go to work at the data center. 00:13:12.597 --> 00:13:14.889 Now, there's only like two or three jobs. I was going to say, 00:13:14.889 --> 00:13:18.609 I think that's kind of the whole thing about it. You'd get to play with AI a lot. 00:13:20.249 --> 00:13:25.500 Anyway, speaking of the state health plan, I did bring it up here a few minutes ago. 00:13:26.093 --> 00:13:30.189 The state health plan board of trustees will meet on October 27th. 00:13:30.189 --> 00:13:32.069 And this is their, obviously, their 00:13:32.069 --> 00:13:36.649 first meeting since the

whole atrium out-of-networks situation occurred. 00:13:37.289 --> 00:13:40.858 So they obviously have a lot to talk about, right? Oh, goodness, yes. 00:13:41.485 --> 00:13:45.079 And we'll be front row, front and center. We'll be right there in the middle 00:13:45.079 --> 00:13:48.631 of it. We'll definitely have a recap of that probably on the next episode. 00:13:49.248 --> 00:13:53.579 So we also have a few guests scheduled to come in next week to talk to us about 00:13:53.579 --> 00:13:59.369 the amendments. Greg Meyer from the NC Justice Center and Representative Paul. 00:13:59.369 --> 00:14:02.129 Can we still call him Representative, right? He's once a girl. I do. 00:14:02.549 --> 00:14:05.199 If you're once a representative, always a representative to me. 00:14:05.199 --> 00:14:08.169 Paul Skipstam will be coming in to speak to us. 00:14:09.146 --> 00:14:13.269 That's an odd couple. It'll be a great discussion. I was going to ask you about 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:15.386 that. Yeah, Skipstam was, you know. 00:14:16.338 --> 00:14:22.490 Skip Stam is very, very Republican, and Greg Meyer was, when he was in the General 00:14:22.490 --> 00:14:25.324 Assembly, very, very big D Democratic. 00:14:25.556 --> 00:14:31.000 But they're both very keenly interested in what the law says. 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.657 So it'll be really interesting. They're both bright. They're both interesting. 00:14:36.850 --> 00:14:42.315 I can't wait. Get a little sparring going on with some legislatures. 00:14:42.965 --> 00:14:44.850 Legislators just like old times, right? 00:14:46.715 --> 00:14:50.230 Well, that'll be fun. I don't have any other topics to talk about. 00:14:50.230 --> 00:14:55.030 I did hear that you went to the State Fair, though, Artis. How was that? Listen, it was so good. 00:14:57.816 --> 00:15:00.817 Saying by what I said to the commissioner, I want the pig races back. 00:15:01.404 --> 00:15:04.330 I miss them every year. It makes me sad. 00:15:05.336 --> 00:15:08.551 I want the free hush puppies back, but that's been a long time now. 00:15:08.836 --> 00:15:13.294 Yeah. You know what? House of Autry. You know what game I haven't seen in a while? 00:15:13.677 --> 00:15:17.703 There's this one where you like throw dimes onto like saucers and things, 00:15:17.703 --> 00:15:20.260 and you get to keep that thing. You don't see that anymore. 00:15:20.608 --> 00:15:23.513 You know what's been gone for a long time? It took me a while to think about 00:15:23.513 --> 00:15:25.456 it. Whack-a-mole. Oh, yeah. 00:15:25.868 --> 00:15:27.933 Whack-a-mole was awesome. I was good at that. 00:15:28.533 --> 00:15:31.553 I feel like it might be just an expensive. Well, since I can only use my right 00:15:31.553 --> 00:15:35.067 hand right now, I thought whack-a-mole would have been a great game. 00:15:35.538 --> 00:15:39.723 And I wonder if they still have the goldfish games where you can win a goldfish. 00:15:39.723 --> 00:15:41.653 I'm sure they have to have that, right? I don't know. 00:15:41.993 --> 00:15:46.493 I feel like we had very different state fair experiences. I feel like the goldfish 00:15:46.493 --> 00:15:48.153 game always made me feel a little bad. 00:15:48.573 --> 00:15:52.513 Yeah. But I don't remember. I don't know if I saw that last night. 00:15:53.534 --> 00:15:58.468 I went and saw the big animals. I was always in the agricultural center and 00:15:58.584 --> 00:16:01.153 visiting those kinds of things. Whenever I went to the state fair, 00:16:01.153 --> 00:16:04.213 my parents weren't necessarily there to be like, go get on rides. 00:16:04.213 --> 00:16:07.053 They were like, do you know how dangerous these things are? Yeah. 00:16:07.433 --> 00:16:11.313 Yeah. Yeah. Well, shout out to Department of Labor, making sure they're not 00:16:11.313 --> 00:16:12.916 dangerous to the degree they can. 00:16:13.653 --> 00:16:18.495 And I think my mom's fear was always just like they are put up that they are 00:16:18.657 --> 00:16:22.463 checked and well vetted, but they are put up so quickly and have to be taken 00:16:22.463 --> 00:16:27.109 down and moved so quickly. It's a legitimate concern. My mom was fearful of that. 00:16:27.649 --> 00:16:31.663 So I have a challenge for you next year, Sammy. Okay. You like to cook, 00:16:31.663 --> 00:16:35.276 don't you? I love to cook. You need to join. You need to like enter something. 00:16:36.608 --> 00:16:40.743 I sent y'all a TikTok of a woman who won the cake contest. 00:16:41.407 --> 00:16:45.128 You need to figure out something you can do. Everybody needs to be there. 00:16:45.128 --> 00:16:48.968 John's family's rep. I went and saw John's family. They were so nice. 00:16:50.228 --> 00:16:54.038 That's my cousin Janet. Traditions Pottery. They're in the village of yesteryear, 00:16:54.038 --> 00:16:56.028 and it's gorgeous stuff. Yeah. 00:16:56.408 --> 00:17:00.088 I wanted to buy some of it. But my thing was. I can get it to you for free. 00:17:00.088 --> 00:17:04.808 What do you do at the fair if you buy pottery? I guess they keep it there till 00:17:04.808 --> 00:17:06.168 the end of when you're about to leave. 00:17:06.228 --> 00:17:08.008 Yeah, they'll keep it for you. They'll even mail it to you if you want. 00:17:08.008 --> 00:17:12.168 Just absolutely gorgeous stuff, though. Yeah. And really cute Halloween stuff. Yeah. 00:17:12.848 --> 00:17:14.830 Yeah. But I love the village of yesteryear. 00:17:15.077 --> 00:17:17.548 Maybe I'll enter my pumpkin cheesecake next year. There you go. 00:17:18.248 --> 00:17:22.638 Yeah. Yeah, I bet pumpkin dessert is probably a popular one, 00:17:22.638 --> 00:17:25.628 don't you think? I made it for the office like one time. Oh, 00:17:25.628 --> 00:17:28.508 yeah. And I think CJ took like two slices home with him. 00:17:30.776 --> 00:17:36.738 Also in the village of yesteryear a bladesmith named scott mcgee he is i think 00:17:36.738 --> 00:17:38.769 he's from like franklin county yeah, 00:17:39.364

--> 00:17:43.278 unbelievable y'all go see him while you're in the village of yesteryear as well 00:17:43.278 --> 00:17:49.058 i mean just an unbelievably skilled bladesmith and he he'll go over to the the 00:17:49.058 --> 00:17:50.939 forge there at heritage forge, 00:17:51.584 --> 00:17:56.218 sometimes and you can watch him make something but he's very cool he's one of 00:17:56.218 --> 00:17:58.838 a kind we've just we're blessed with, 00:17:59.570 --> 00:18:03.458 with creative talent in the state that really hits me every time i'm there like 00:18:03.458 --> 00:18:08.237 we are blessed you've got an awesome state fair yeah and remember when, 00:18:08.968 --> 00:18:12.258 you would see like the wrl people there and you would think you were really 00:18:12.258 --> 00:18:16.258 meeting a celebrity right yes and i would be signing autographs i always wanted 00:18:16.258 --> 00:18:19.258 to get on tv like if i walked by enough times. 00:18:19.258 --> 00:18:21.684 Yeah. Yeah. And now... 00:18:22.525 --> 00:18:31.313 Now, now I'm like, oh God. So, yes, the fair was as outstanding as it always is. However... 00:18:32.526 --> 00:18:36.961 I may have to go in for just five minutes one day because I wanted, 00:18:37.583 --> 00:18:41.153 from a place called Granny's Kitchen in that little heritage village, 00:18:41.925 --> 00:18:47.115 it said, sweet potato biscuit with country ham and sweet potato butter. 00:18:47.115 --> 00:18:51.858 Oh, that's, yeah, that's, that sounds delicious. That sounds really good. It does, doesn't it? 00:18:52.055 --> 00:18:55.785 I can't get it out of my head. I've seen a lot of videos of people eating the 00:18:55.785 --> 00:18:58.665 food this year. I think a big thing that I've seen that's been very popular, 00:18:58.665 --> 00:19:01.675 I think it's, what, Peachy's Donuts or something? Oh, my goodness. 00:19:01.675 --> 00:19:04.042 Okay, so I was going to get one of those. Mm-hmm. 00:19:04.754 --> 00:19:11.163 And they have people working their hineys off inside the peachy's donut hut. 00:19:11.723 --> 00:19:14.182 I mean, these women are working as fast as they can go. 00:19:14.791 --> 00:19:17.148 But the line, y'all. 00:19:18.094 --> 00:19:22.213 That's what I saw. I think I saw a video on Sunday where it was like 9.45 p.m. 00:19:22.213 --> 00:19:27.445 And the line was still ridiculous. They were like, hey, the state fair closed at 9.30. 00:19:27.584 --> 00:19:30.323 Right. And these people are still in line. Unless George Strait is going to 00:19:30.323 --> 00:19:31.583 serve me that donut, I'm not waiting that long. 00:19:32.483 --> 00:19:35.682 I always thought that it should have, like, a lunch deal where, 00:19:36.152 --> 00:19:40.183 like, people that work around it can go and don't have to pay admission and just go. 00:19:40.403 --> 00:19:42.923 They used to do that the day before entry. I don't know if they still do. 00:19:42.923 --> 00:19:45.731 They have a media day that's, like, right beforehand. 00:19:45.882 --> 00:19:49.023 I mean, because, you know, a lot of people would just go there to eat lunch. We did. Yeah. 00:19:49.323 --> 00:19:51.884 When I worked for the state, we would go down there. Yeah. 00:19:52.464 --> 00:19:54.563 But, yeah, it's a wonderful thing. And that's another thing I was going to ask. 00:19:54.563 --> 00:19:58.363 Do state employees get a discount at the fair or no? They used to, right? 00:20:00.290 --> 00:20:04.073 Or we used to give them these. Yeah, I think we used to, but I don't think state 00:20:04.073 --> 00:20:05.153 employees, I don't remember ever. 00:20:05.163 --> 00:20:09.753 There is a couple special admission days, though. So there is one where I know 00:20:09.753 --> 00:20:13.879 it's if you bring six non-perishable food items, then you can get in for free. 00:20:14.152 --> 00:20:18.030 So think about that. And then there's also this Wednesday. So tomorrow, 00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:19.683 that's a little irrelevant right now. 00:20:19.683 --> 00:20:25.393 But Wednesday, October 21st is Veterans Appreciation Day slash Military Appreciation 00:20:25.393 --> 00:20:31.123 Day. And so military and veterans can get in themselves as well as three guests 00:20:31.123 --> 00:20:33.243 for free. That's great. That's appropriate. Yes. 00:20:34.058 --> 00:20:37.466 You know, speaking of military, speaking of that makes me think of gunshots. 00:20:38.248 --> 00:20:43.171 I miss the turkey shoot. They don't have a turkey shoot? The Jaycees ran one 00:20:43.171 --> 00:20:46.944 for years. And they only, last year was first year, it wasn't there. 00:20:47.591 --> 00:20:54.930 But it was awesome. And so there was constant shotgun noises at the state fair. I did a turkey shoot. 00:20:55.151 --> 00:20:58.755 I wrote a story about it when I was at the Herald, Sanford Herald. 00:20:59.272 --> 00:21:03.747 I was not very good. But I didn't win a turkey. But it was fun. 00:21:03.927 --> 00:21:06.186 We got our Thanksgiving turkey at the fair one year. 00:21:06.621 --> 00:21:12.931 Remember they used to have like drag races and like a jet-powered car out there and it was loud. 00:21:13.491 --> 00:21:15.738 Oh, yeah, that. I miss that noise, too. Yeah. 00:21:16.493 --> 00:21:20.226 All right. Well, you can't live in the past. You got to move to the future. 00:21:20.673 --> 00:21:25.891 Well, I enjoy this interview with San Hoekstra, the Department of Public Safety 00:21:25.891 --> 00:21:28.272 Interim Secretary, and have a great week. 00:21:34.661 --> 00:21:39.141 Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Scenic View podcast. 00:21:39.141 --> 00:21:42.695 I'm John Owens, along with Artis Watkins and Samantha Klein. 00:21:43.536 --> 00:21:47.601 Our guest this week leads one of the largest agencies in the state, 00:21:47.601 --> 00:21:52.087 and it's a time of real change for the agency from what I understand. 00:21:52.737 --> 00:21:59.431 North Carolina Department of Public Safety Interim Secretary Cassandra

Hookstrow is our guest today. 00:21:59.751 --> 00:22:05.591 And you said you go by San. I go by San. Well, we'll call you Madam Secretary, as artists said. 00:22:06.646 --> 00:22:08.219 Thank you so much for coming in. 00:22:08.922 --> 00:22:14.111 So, Governor Stein named you interim secretary in August, and before that, 00:22:14.111 --> 00:22:17.768 you were the department's chief of staff, correct? 00:22:17.908 --> 00:22:24.090 Okay. And you have more than 25 years in state policy and government relations experience. 00:22:24.775 --> 00:22:29.088 That's what I think Wikipedia told me about you. That's true. 00:22:29.622 --> 00:22:33.336 No, but you have a long career in public service, and we're happy that you're 00:22:33.441 --> 00:22:36.811 here with us today. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. 00:22:37.291 --> 00:22:40.551 I appreciate you having me. Okay. Are you a frequent listener of the Repo? 00:22:40.911 --> 00:22:43.951 No, I'm just kidding. Every chance I get. 00:22:44.571 --> 00:22:47.211 After this, after this one. I knew that was coming. 00:22:47.889 --> 00:22:50.951 As you know, Scenic has a lot of members in DPS. 00:22:51.751 --> 00:22:56.351 We had even more before the split with corrections, so that'll be one topic 00:22:56.351 --> 00:23:00.086 we'll get into, just about the new structure of the agency. 00:23:00.736 --> 00:23:03.911 But first, let's learn a little bit about your career in public service and 00:23:03.911 --> 00:23:07.571 what brought you to pursue a career in public service? Okay. 00:23:07.911 --> 00:23:15.731 So I have always had what I would call a strong calling to help others. 00:23:15.731 --> 00:23:18.783 That's just, that's something that I've always wanted to do. 00:23:19.178 --> 00:23:24.311 And public service is something that has allowed me to pursue that. 00:23:24.311 --> 00:23:29.781 I've wanted a career with purpose. I wanted a career where I could really be 00:23:29.781 --> 00:23:35.261 a benefit or help to others. And that's how I wound up in the public service 00:23:35.261 --> 00:23:37.683 and then public safety space. Okay. 00:23:38.671 --> 00:23:42.095 You know, you started with a psychology degree. Is that right? 00:23:42.432 --> 00:23:46.171 Yes. So, okay. You've been reading my resume. Yes. No, I'm just, 00:23:46.171 --> 00:23:48.788 okay. So that makes me really curious though. How does someone, 00:23:49.067 --> 00:23:51.145 psychology degree, then law school, 00:23:51.846 --> 00:23:55.613 That's not very common, is it? It's more common than you might think. 00:23:55.944 --> 00:23:59.885 My original path, I wanted to go into the mental health field. 00:24:00.325 --> 00:24:08.943 I was intending to be a psychiatrist or psychologist, but had some fits and starts while in school. 00:24:09.424 --> 00:24:15.288 And then I was very clearly in my mind, and I happened to be a person of faith, 00:24:15.879 --> 00:24:19.385 and I felt like I was being called into a completely different direction. 00:24:19.385 --> 00:24:24.041 And that was to go to law school. And so I finished my undergraduate degree 00:24:24.454 --> 00:24:26.200 and went on to law school. 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:30.565 And the way things just fell into place, it was clear to me that that's what 00:24:30.565 --> 00:24:31.405 I was supposed to be doing. 00:24:31.805 --> 00:24:35.285 Oh, that's a nice story. I was thinking you were like CIA. 00:24:36.525 --> 00:24:38.616 Because I'm like, psychology, then law, that's... 00:24:39.145 --> 00:24:43.463 Well, we don't tell people that. You can't tell it. So, like I said, 00:24:43.463 --> 00:24:48.153 you were named interim secretary in August and you were the chief of staff before. 00:24:48.153 --> 00:24:51.103 What was that conversation like when the governor asked you to? 00:24:51.544 --> 00:24:56.983 Well, it was a conversation that I'd had once before because I have served as 00:24:56.983 --> 00:24:59.306 the interim secretary previously. 00:24:59.677 --> 00:25:05.733 It was one that was a bit unexpected. We did not know what the governor's intention 00:25:05.733 --> 00:25:09.253 was with regard to then-Secretary Jeff Smythe. 00:25:09.253 --> 00:25:13.313 But when he called and asked, or a member of his staff, he personally didn't 00:25:13.313 --> 00:25:16.453 call me, but a member of his staff called and asked if I would be willing to 00:25:16.453 --> 00:25:17.948 step. I was happy to do that. 00:25:18.503 --> 00:25:24.333 And I think I was probably the natural choice because I had done it before. 00:25:24.438 --> 00:25:29.243 And I've been with this department in its various iterations for a long time. 00:25:29.615 --> 00:25:34.393 I jokingly call myself the DPS dinosaur because I have been around so long and 00:25:34.393 --> 00:25:35.653 in various different roles. 00:25:35.653 --> 00:25:41.648 And so I felt like this was an opportunity for me to kind of provide some continuity 00:25:41.898 --> 00:25:47.063 to the team, a face that they knew, a name that they knew since they had been through summer. 00:25:47.063 --> 00:25:50.513 Well, it's a bonus that the legislature always also respects you, 00:25:50.513 --> 00:25:56.243 both sides over there. So that's a bonus for an agency. Thank you. I appreciate that. 00:25:56.623 --> 00:25:59.463 And over the years, I've been able to build some really good relationships with 00:25:59.463 --> 00:26:00.787 members of the General Assembly. 00:26:01.118 --> 00:26:06.573 I did do legislative work early on. And so that helped to establish those partnerships, 00:26:06.573 --> 00:26:10.223 those relationships. So you mentioned that you were interim secretary. 00:26:10.223 --> 00:26:12.843 I guess it was 2021 when you were there. 00:26:13.183 --> 00:26:16.783 Since then, there's been lots of changes in the agency, right? 00:26:16.783 --> 00:26:22.277 In 2023, Adult Corrections was separated into its own agency. 00:26:22.841 --> 00:26:27.383 And then the State Highway Patrol went

independent. in 2025, 00:26:27.383 --> 00:26:30.775 right? And those are two big parts of the agency. 00:26:31.378 --> 00:26:34.629 How is this time different? Oh, wow. Well, it's... 00:26:35.278 --> 00:26:39.754 Previously, in 2021, that was sort of at the height of COVID. 00:26:40.874 --> 00:26:45.581 And we were the largest agency at that time, more than 26,000 employees. 00:26:45.941 --> 00:26:53.241 And a lot of the decisions that the leadership team and myself were making included 00:26:53.241 --> 00:26:58.821 things like safety protocols to protect the staff, to protect the people who 00:26:59.241 --> 00:27:00.406 are in our care and custody. 00:27:00.708 --> 00:27:05.880 In fact, I remember being on calls with you artists and Suzanne and others to 00:27:06.182 --> 00:27:09.571 talk about, you know, what things we needed to put in place. 00:27:09.571 --> 00:27:13.061 That was when vaccines were just coming out. 00:27:13.421 --> 00:27:16.945 Masking, social distancing, all of those things. 00:27:17.397 --> 00:27:23.251 And just trying to make the best decision for the people that do the jobs and 00:27:23.251 --> 00:27:28.391 also to make sure that we were keeping those that we had in our custody and care. 00:27:28.524 --> 00:27:31.931 You know, we were blessed with so many folks and agencies who really cared about 00:27:31.931 --> 00:27:33.522 their folks and cared about the public. 00:27:34.161 --> 00:27:38.166 And during that really difficult time, we're just going all out to help people. 00:27:38.515 --> 00:27:43.941 But to this day, we talk about you. That's when our respect for you went to the next level. 00:27:45.087 --> 00:27:48.485 Everybody was doing great, but you were one that really stuck with us. 00:27:48.485 --> 00:27:51.915 We were like, okay, she really wants to make sure everybody's okay. 00:27:51.915 --> 00:27:55.635 And your folks faced some of the biggest dangers, honestly. 00:27:55.925 --> 00:27:59.615 We did because of the nature of the work that we do or did at that time, 00:27:59.615 --> 00:28:03.985 particularly in the facilities. You know, there was really no way to social 00:28:03.985 --> 00:28:07.639 distance in a prison facility or even a juvenile facility. 00:28:08.086 --> 00:28:11.585 And then with masking and vaccinations, that was all, I mean, 00:28:12.065 --> 00:28:16.315 those were all difficult decisions. trying to balance personal choice with what 00:28:16.315 --> 00:28:20.213 was best for, you know, the staff and the people that we were serving. 00:28:20.502 --> 00:28:26.255 And then the law enforcement, you know, the enforcement that also was fraught 00:28:26.255 --> 00:28:29.534 with risk or some sort of COVID exposure. 00:28:30.215 --> 00:28:35.825 So it sounds like the department has had several leadership changes in the last six years or so. 00:28:35.865 --> 00:28:41.765 So how has the staff handled it, and have you been able to kind of instill some, 00:28:42.305 --> 00:28:45.666 stability now since you're coming back to the job? Mm-hmm. 00:28:46.426 --> 00:28:50.337 Yes, we have undergone a great deal of change over the past three, 00:28:50.337 --> 00:28:53.200 four years. It's a very different-looking department. 00:28:53.676 --> 00:28:58.227 Mission is still the same. Focus is still the same. But the makeup of the department is different. 00:28:58.674 --> 00:29:03.986 And I have to say that my priority for this transition is to provide some stability, 00:29:04.462 --> 00:29:06.937 and continuity for the staff. 00:29:06.937 --> 00:29:11.647 You know, change can be a good thing or it can result in some positive outcomes. 00:29:11.647 --> 00:29:16.827 But it is also very stressful. And the amount of change in such a short period 00:29:16.827 --> 00:29:22.961 of time, I'm concerned about how it is impacting staff, staff morale, 00:29:23.425 --> 00:29:25.157 their responsibilities have changed. 00:29:25.157 --> 00:29:31.175 Some have had to do more with less, you know, fewer staff to do the work that needs to get done. 00:29:31.750 --> 00:29:36.347 And so I've worked very hard and continue to make sure that staff know that 00:29:36.347 --> 00:29:38.507 they are seen, they're appreciated, they're valued. 00:29:38.925 --> 00:29:41.647 Yeah, we've been through this before. We will get through this too. 00:29:42.036 --> 00:29:45.167 And that just that I appreciate all the work that they do. 00:29:45.167 --> 00:29:52.177 We have an amazing team. We have got some highly motivated, highly dedicated 00:29:52.177 --> 00:29:56.957 staff in all areas of the department. And I'm just humbled to be able to work 00:29:56.957 --> 00:29:59.219 with that team and to serve in this role. 00:29:59.515 --> 00:30:04.043 So I'm looking over the departments that you oversee at DPS now. 00:30:04.705 --> 00:30:11.868 And it's just a wide range of different entities, Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, 00:30:12.496 --> 00:30:17.127 Emergency Management with Homeland Security, Alcohol Law Enforcement, 00:30:17.127 --> 00:30:21.463 the National Guard, the Office of Recovery and Resiliency, 00:30:22.082 --> 00:30:27.817 the Crime Commission, Victims' Compensation Services, and Samarkand Training 00:30:27.817 --> 00:30:29.948 Academy are some that I have listed here. 00:30:30.424 --> 00:30:36.705 And then you throw in the Highway Patrol and Adult Correction when you were in charge of first. 00:30:37.036 --> 00:30:39.256 Was it just too big, did you think, at that time? 00:30:39.686 --> 00:30:41.735 I mean, it seems like that's a lot. 00:30:42.531 --> 00:30:47.942 It was a lot. It was a large agency. And, you know, although it was. 00:30:48.643 --> 00:30:49.960 How's the best way to describe it? 00:30:50.239 --> 00:30:53.960 We all had that public safety focus and that mission, but it was coming from 00:30:54.280 --> 00:30:59.350 a number of different perspectives, you know, that custody and care perspective. 00:30:59.350 --> 00:31:04.984 And then you had law

enforcement, National Guard, emergency management. So, too large. 00:31:05.462 --> 00:31:08.091 I think that it was a big department. 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:11.620 26,000 employees. It was big. 00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:16.716 And I think that particularly with the split off of adult correction, 00:31:17.105 --> 00:31:22.160 that was something that allowed that division and later department to. 00:31:22.820 --> 00:31:27.870 Provide some more attention to some of their unique needs and challenges and 00:31:27.870 --> 00:31:31.820 allowed them to get some much needed resources. 00:31:31.820 --> 00:31:37.129 Whereas, you know, they may have kind of gotten lost in the larger DPS in some respects. 00:31:37.483 --> 00:31:41.297 Well, let's talk about resources because that's a big focus for us usually. 00:31:41.819 --> 00:31:46.423 We did talk to Billy Lassiter at the Juvenile Justice, I guess you call him, 00:31:46.846 --> 00:31:49.186 department? It's a division. Division, okay. 00:31:49.679 --> 00:31:55.740 And he said that he's facing large vacancies and trouble trying to get people 00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:57.104 to work in the department. 00:31:57.591 --> 00:32:01.353 Is that something you're experiencing across the board in DPS or...? 00:32:01.963 --> 00:32:06.537 I think recruitment and retention is a challenge for all state agencies at this point. 00:32:06.804 --> 00:32:12.647 But yes, it is something that we are experiencing more so in juvenile justice. 00:32:12.647 --> 00:32:17.147 They had carried some of the higher vacancy rates in the agency, 00:32:17.147 --> 00:32:19.947 particularly with the facility-based staff. 00:32:20.659 --> 00:32:24.747 But we have gotten some additional resources thanks to the General Assembly 00:32:25.087 --> 00:32:26.847 and a pay plan that they put in place. 00:32:27.190 --> 00:32:30.747 That has helped us with our recruitment, and we have seen some improvement in 00:32:30.747 --> 00:32:33.105 some of those vacancy rates. 00:32:33.430 --> 00:32:37.674 But it's still a process. You know, additional resources would be welcome. 00:32:38.092 --> 00:32:42.457 And of course, you know, anything to recruit and keep. 00:32:42.840 --> 00:32:47.247 Yeah, to be fair, when we talked to Director Lassiter, it was prior to the budget 00:32:47.247 --> 00:32:49.063 actually being enacted. 00:32:49.185 --> 00:32:53.847 And I know there was a good amount of money for some of those positions. 00:32:53.847 --> 00:32:56.907 But I still wonder, being where 00:32:56.907 --> 00:33:02.037 we were compared to everyone else in the country, that was a great step. 00:33:02.153 --> 00:33:05.468 But we still have some big, big steps to make is what. 00:33:06.101 --> 00:33:09.201 I'm concerned about, that we don't feel like, look, we've done this, 00:33:09.490 --> 00:33:13.065 because I know we were just talking about the Pasquatank and Bertie County murder, 00:33:13.542 --> 00:33:15.126 and that it's been nine years. 00:33:15.266 --> 00:33:20.351

That's right. And I got to thinking about that right after those things happened. 00:33:20.763 --> 00:33:23.529 There was a lot of resources thrown. I thought it might be sustained, 00:33:23.529 --> 00:33:26.301 but we weren't able to keep it sustained enough. 00:33:26.725 --> 00:33:30.829 And so that really got me thinking about the big raises this year for different 00:33:30.829 --> 00:33:35.293 kinds of agencies dealing with tough situations, tough vacancy rates. 00:33:35.746 --> 00:33:39.171 And I think it's very clear we've got to keep the foot on the gas. 00:33:39.362 --> 00:33:42.679 I think you're exactly right. I think that we're having to compete with private 00:33:42.679 --> 00:33:46.979 sector, and that is difficult. These are not easy jobs, a lot of them. 00:33:47.299 --> 00:33:52.849 And so to ensure that these staff receive the kind of salaries that would make 00:33:52.849 --> 00:33:57.429 them better competitive with their private peers, I think is really important. 00:33:57.429 --> 00:34:01.310 So there's more work to do. A lot of work that's been done, but there's more work to do. 00:34:01.588 --> 00:34:08.139 Yeah, we hear the vacancy issue comes up on most every interview that we do with agency heads. 00:34:08.780 --> 00:34:11.816 What are some of the other challenges facing your department? 00:34:12.303 --> 00:34:19.681 So, well, one that we sort of touched on, I have been concerned about morale with all of the changes. 00:34:19.983 --> 00:34:25.492 And so just really focused on trying to maintain some stability. 00:34:25.962 --> 00:34:31.749 Because even with all of the changes, we find that our teams are still supporting 00:34:31.749 --> 00:34:35.964 those agencies that have been separated out to help them. 00:34:36.498 --> 00:34:40.059 Become more independent. So they're not only doing, you know, 00:34:40.059 --> 00:34:43.189 work for the DPS department, but also 00:34:43.509 --> 00:34:48.062 still trying to help get those other departments where they need to be. 00:34:48.497 --> 00:34:53.389 You know, in this environment, public safety is, it has, it's fraught with a lot of issues. 00:34:53.869 --> 00:34:57.612 I would say also as the Homeland Security Advisor, you know, there are 00:34:58.024 --> 00:35:01.484 challenges now that in terms of cybersecurity and some of those things, 00:35:01.879 --> 00:35:05.449 protecting infrastructure, those kinds of things that weren't things we thought 00:35:05.449 --> 00:35:08.949 about in the past or really didn't have to focus on those kinds of risks. 00:35:08.949 --> 00:35:13.509 So it's a new day in terms of the kinds of challenges that we face in public safety. 00:35:13.869 --> 00:35:17.729 I listen to the DPS podcast. By the way, they have a podcast, 00:35:17.729 --> 00:35:20.843 y'all. So if you ever want to listen, you should. 00:35:21.469 --> 00:35:24.819 Does it have a name? I always just look DPS up and it comes up on my screen. 00:35:24.819 --> 00:35:26.509 It's a safety scoop. Safety scoop. Yeah. 00:35:27.487 --> 00:35:30.607 It is really, it's interesting. And I was listening. I know John would like 00:35:30.607 --> 00:35:35.242 this. He likes anything about, he likes AI the best. That fascinates him the most. 00:35:35.631 --> 00:35:39.697 But cybersecurity would fascinate him too. And I was listening to the one with 00:35:39.697 --> 00:35:41.897 someone from the National Guard about cybersecurity. 00:35:42.697 --> 00:35:48.557 And I thought, wow. I mean, that's a massive thing to have under your roof in 00:35:48.557 --> 00:35:49.817 terms of responsibilities. 00:35:50.020 --> 00:35:54.478 And we have an excellent cybersecurity team within the Guard. 00:35:54.774 --> 00:36:01.897 And they provide support to local agencies and other entities that need to, 00:36:02.377 --> 00:36:03.800 you know, they do pen tests. 00:36:04.096 --> 00:36:07.957 I don't want to overspeak my understanding of this issue. Okay. 00:36:09.297 --> 00:36:12.347 You already overspoken because we're not that with it. 00:36:12.347 --> 00:36:16.327 What is a pen test? A penetration test to determine, you know, 00:36:16.327 --> 00:36:18.637 how vulnerable a particular system is. 00:36:18.637 --> 00:36:23.769 But they provide all of that for these local entities to make sure that they 00:36:24.030 --> 00:36:27.367 have a clear understanding of what their risks are, what their vulnerabilities 00:36:27.367 --> 00:36:33.057 are, and then help them with how to improve their system. So it's a wonderful... Are we secure? 00:36:34.597 --> 00:36:37.057 We can send them over here to make sure. Oh, no, I don't mean... 00:36:38.449 --> 00:36:43.091 Is North Carolina secure? I need you to tell us. Is North Carolina secure? Yeah. 00:36:43.551 --> 00:36:47.711 North Carolina is always actively monitoring for any sorts of threats. 00:36:47.711 --> 00:36:51.626 Perfect. I like that. Somebody's watching out. We are always watching. 00:36:51.853 --> 00:36:55.051 Well, since you brought up AI, I guess I can ask my AI. He loves it. 00:36:55.051 --> 00:37:01.401 He comes there every day. So is DPS starting to integrate AI into its work? 00:37:01.697 --> 00:37:02.971 We're just beginning to. 00:37:03.731 --> 00:37:07.084 We have just kind of dipped our toe into it some. 00:37:07.589 --> 00:37:13.731 And we have been very mindful of, you know, security risks and privacy concerns 00:37:13.731 --> 00:37:18.514 and just wanting to make sure that, you know, whatever we do is safe and secure. 00:37:18.943 --> 00:37:24.226 But we have used it for things like policy reviews. I think some of the grant 00:37:24.603 --> 00:37:29.291 management positions that are in Governor's Crime Commission and even in emergency 00:37:29.291 --> 00:37:34.731 management, victim services, they are using AI to assist with that as well. 00:37:34.731 --> 00:37:40.805 So it is something that we're starting to kind of utilize to make our jobs easier or more efficient. 00:37:41.025 --> 00:37:43.971

So I'll put you on the spot just very briefly. 00:37:44.331 --> 00:37:49.866 What would you say to one of your employees who are worried that AI may replace them? 00:37:50.099 --> 00:37:53.680 What would I say to an employee who is worried that AI may replace them? 00:37:54.249 --> 00:37:59.183 When I look at the kinds of positions that we have in public safety, 00:37:59.740 --> 00:38:03.768 I don't see that AI could replace them. 00:38:04.209 --> 00:38:09.940 A lot of them are, you know, positions that require somebody to be there to 00:38:09.940 --> 00:38:15.343 interact with someone from either a JJ standpoint, providing services to. 00:38:16.350 --> 00:38:21.130 Educational services, mental health services, those kinds of things that I don't 00:38:21.130 --> 00:38:23.390 see AI being in a position to. 00:38:23.450 --> 00:38:27.300 So, yeah, we're not going to have robots rolling around the juvenile facility 00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:32.050 to help with, you know, all the services that no robo cops just yet. 00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:34.465 And rehabilitation services. Right. Yeah. 00:38:34.836 --> 00:38:39.450 I don't see that. OK, so switching gears a little bit, the anniversary of Hurricane 00:38:39.450 --> 00:38:45.010 Helene just passed. And I know that your department was very involved in the 00:38:45.010 --> 00:38:47.530 efforts up there. How is it looking? 00:38:48.050 --> 00:38:50.890 Is it two years or one year? It's two years. Two years. It's been two years. 00:38:50.890 --> 00:38:53.575 How are things two years removed from the... 00:38:53.964 --> 00:38:58.550 Well, it is still an ongoing recovery process. 00:38:58.550 --> 00:39:02.950 I think there's been a great deal of progress, a number of resources, 00:39:02.950 --> 00:39:09.430 financial and others, that have helped with the recovery. But recovery is a long process. 00:39:10.210 --> 00:39:14.576 And, you know, it takes a long time. And it is never quick enough, 00:39:14.871 --> 00:39:20.300 certainly from the perspective of those who have experienced and suffered through the disaster. 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:26.244 But even from our standpoint, you know, processes, a lot of the bureaucracy 00:39:26.475 --> 00:39:29.501 and those kinds of things that go into these processes can extend them. 00:39:29.970 --> 00:39:34.214 So we are doing everything we can to try to do things more quickly. 00:39:34.464 --> 00:39:38.323 That's certainly the directive that we've gotten from the governor's office 00:39:38.498 --> 00:39:43.250 to try to get people back in their homes and get them, make them whole again. 00:39:43.250 --> 00:39:45.116 But it is a lengthy process. 00:39:45.469 --> 00:39:50.010 So I know that even here at Scenic, it engulfed our work for many months. 00:39:50.010 --> 00:39:56.120 I mean, it was pretty much all that we did for at least three or four months afterwards, I'm sure. 00:39:56.741 --> 00:40:00.815 Was that the case in your department? Is it kind of an all-hands-on-deck

type thing? 00:40:01.175 --> 00:40:04.695 Yes. Because it was kind of, I mean, it was unprecedented what happened. 00:40:04.695 --> 00:40:09.240 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so it really did touch several areas of the department. 00:40:09.935 --> 00:40:16.137 And it continues to touch several areas of the department as we try to help people. 00:40:16.461 --> 00:40:20.065 Yeah, I know a lot of people up there are very appreciative of the things that 00:40:20.065 --> 00:40:22.679 your department has done and continues to do. 00:40:22.952 --> 00:40:26.300 And in partnership with a lot of other state agencies, too. 00:40:27.363 --> 00:40:32.715 All right. So in your view, what are the biggest challenges you face right now? 00:40:32.715 --> 00:40:34.485 I mean, you've been throwing a lot of curveballs. 00:40:34.967 --> 00:40:41.445 I think that juvenile justice and their staffing, I think that continues to be a challenge. 00:40:41.445 --> 00:40:46.375 One we're working on, we talked about some of the resources that have been provided 00:40:46.375 --> 00:40:50.455 to us to help make a difference there, but that continues to be a challenge. 00:40:50.455 --> 00:40:54.842 Capacity, you know, there are some areas where the facilities are just, 00:40:55.485 --> 00:41:00.154 almost overcapacity because of need for additional facilities. 00:41:00.154 --> 00:41:03.890 And so that's something that continues to be a challenge for us. 00:41:04.291 --> 00:41:07.896 But also, we talked about Hurricane Helene. That's a huge focus. 00:41:08.389 --> 00:41:13.814 And then just Homeland Security in general, some of the new and different threats. 00:41:13.814 --> 00:41:17.384 I think that we need to be planning for the completely unexpected, 00:41:17.384 --> 00:41:20.534 you know, something that that's, I think that is the threat. 00:41:20.534 --> 00:41:24.584 We've seen some of the things that have happened and could happen, 00:41:24.584 --> 00:41:28.484 But I think that in this environment, we need to be thinking more out of the 00:41:28.484 --> 00:41:30.984 box about how to prepare for some of this. 00:41:31.544 --> 00:41:34.504 Listen, I went to the fair last night, and I passed these two gentlemen at a 00:41:34.504 --> 00:41:39.577 table who had a little stand, and they were ham radio operators. 00:41:40.924 --> 00:41:45.064 And I told my son, those guys are going to be okay when something happens. 00:41:45.064 --> 00:41:46.560 And he said, what are you even talking about? 00:41:46.990 --> 00:41:50.647 I said, listen, at some point, all communication could be shut down, 00:41:51.106 --> 00:41:55.754 and those guys are going to somehow be communicating. So it's like the people 00:41:55.754 --> 00:41:59.543 who know how to grow their own food and everything else, the ham radio operators. 00:42:01.544 --> 00:42:05.180 But it made me really think about it. I don't usually think about what if something 00:42:05.465 --> 00:42:06.881 bad happened, you know, but—, 00:42:07.755 --> 00:42:12.044 Seeing them really did make me think, I bet there's a lot of stuff in place 00:42:12.044 --> 00:42:14.727 for if a mass disaster happened like that. 00:42:14.913 --> 00:42:19.024 There are a lot of resources that are looking at those things, 00:42:19.024 --> 00:42:23.164 planning for those things, preparing lots of exercises and whatnot that are 00:42:23.164 --> 00:42:25.435 happening to prepare for. 00:42:26.033 --> 00:42:28.754 It's such a different time. When we were little, we would have to get under 00:42:28.754 --> 00:42:32.564 our desk to plan for, you know, crazy, crazy stuff. 00:42:32.564 --> 00:42:36.944 Like at the time, it was all about the United States and Russia and, 00:42:36.944 --> 00:42:39.924 you know, just post-Cuban missile crisis, you know, whatever, 00:42:39.924 --> 00:42:44.384 a couple decades post-Cuban missile crisis. So there was these weird fears out 00:42:44.384 --> 00:42:46.542 there. Now, I think it's much more insidious. 00:42:46.676 --> 00:42:51.364 It's not some big thing like that. It's somebody with a few keystrokes could 00:42:51.364 --> 00:42:56.084 shut down the banking system and everything else. That's, I don't think we could 00:42:56.084 --> 00:42:58.299 have imagined this is where we'd be in our lifetime. 00:42:58.927 --> 00:43:02.474 Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And it's in your lap. Oh, my goodness. 00:43:03.294 --> 00:43:07.176 I feel sorry for you, but I'm glad it's you because I feel confident. 00:43:07.942 --> 00:43:12.102 So we are employee-focused podcasts, obviously. It's in our name. 00:43:12.102 --> 00:43:16.372 So let's talk a little bit about being an employee at the DPS. 00:43:17.379 --> 00:43:21.942 One of DPS's stated goals is to be a career destination. What would you tell 00:43:21.942 --> 00:43:24.772 a state employee thinking about getting a job at DPS? 00:43:25.512 --> 00:43:29.402 Okay, and I'm just going to say it on this podcast that DPS is the best agency 00:43:29.402 --> 00:43:31.772 in state government. We've heard that several times. 00:43:32.792 --> 00:43:36.742 Well, you're telling the truth. Yeah, I am. I am a DPS champion all the way. 00:43:36.742 --> 00:43:43.882 Have loved this agency from my very start. I just, the mission is one that I 00:43:43.882 --> 00:43:48.472 just has resonated with me and I think resonates with people who have a real 00:43:48.472 --> 00:43:50.501 public service mindset. 00:43:50.855 --> 00:43:58.172 And we do focus on our employees. We are always trying to think of ways to make 00:43:58.172 --> 00:44:03.928 their work easier, ways to help them with their life-work balance. 00:44:04.253 --> 00:44:07.542 And, you know, compensation is just one piece of that. 00:44:07.542 --> 00:44:11.462 But what are some of the other things that we can do to show our employees that 00:44:11.462 --> 00:44:16.502 they're appreciated, that they're valued, to make their experience at DPS one 00:44:16.502 --> 00:44:21.642 that they enjoy, but one

that sets us apart from other departments? 00:44:21.642 --> 00:44:25.581 And that's something we're constantly looking at and exploring and trying new things. 00:44:25.929 --> 00:44:29.132 Well, that goes right into my next question. But beyond pay, 00:44:29.472 --> 00:44:30.912 what keeps people at DPS? 00:44:31.212 --> 00:44:37.372 Maybe what drives them away? I think that the mission and the work to keep people 00:44:37.372 --> 00:44:42.340 at DPS. I also think it's the people at DPS that keep our teams, our folks there. 00:44:43.092 --> 00:44:46.977 Like I said previously, we have a great team. 00:44:47.592 --> 00:44:50.752 And I think that, you know, even for some of, 00:44:51.312 --> 00:44:57.162 our interns who later come back and want to work as part of DPS, 00:44:57.162 --> 00:45:03.713 they see the camaraderie, they see the commitment, they see that we try to grow together. 00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:10.406 Staff, you know, we look at or pay attention to those areas where we can see 00:45:10.813 --> 00:45:16.670 that they have potential and try to grow staff so that they can go on to lead 00:45:16.891 --> 00:45:18.836 somewhere in the department going forward. 00:45:19.248 --> 00:45:24.017 And something that drives them away? What drives them away? It could be salary. 00:45:24.017 --> 00:45:30.068 I mean, oftentimes we lose people to the private sector where they're able to make more money. 00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:34.201 And then some of our jobs, as you know, you can't really work remotely. 00:45:34.567 --> 00:45:40.217 And that has been a big recruitment tool, employee satisfaction sort of resource 00:45:40.217 --> 00:45:41.823 or tool that we've been able to use. 00:45:42.172 --> 00:45:45.211 But we have a lot of jobs that just don't allow for that. 00:45:45.571 --> 00:45:49.317 I assume you're also competing not only with the private sector, 00:45:49.317 --> 00:45:53.847 but with other law enforcement agencies, right? That is exactly right. Yeah. 00:45:54.187 --> 00:45:58.500 How does the state compare to, say, I know in the prison system we... 00:45:58.906 --> 00:46:01.747 We lose them to detention centers, county detention centers. 00:46:02.167 --> 00:46:06.767 Is that a similar... I think that that is improving, but then you have state 00:46:06.767 --> 00:46:09.977 law enforcement agencies that are not necessarily on par. 00:46:09.977 --> 00:46:16.747 And so there's always that sort of push-pull, tug-of-war where there may be 00:46:16.747 --> 00:46:20.450 a draw to another law enforcement agency that can pay more. 00:46:20.710 --> 00:46:24.307 Yeah. So it's a constant trying to keep par. 00:46:26.242 --> 00:46:30.021 And the legislative, I mean, you understand the legislature in a unique way. 00:46:30.706 --> 00:46:35.200 I think that what was fascinating to me to watch in the last session was, 00:46:35.972 --> 00:46:40.104 the way LAP's salary money became a football. 00:46:40.587 --> 00:46:46.427 And on the one hand, I love talking

about how many vacant positions there are 00:46:46.427 --> 00:46:48.166 because it shows one of two things. 00:46:48.497 --> 00:46:51.387 Number one, a lot of them are vacant because we can't recruit people for those 00:46:51.387 --> 00:46:55.437 positions, but we also can't delete the positions because the number two is 00:46:55.437 --> 00:46:58.467 that agencies aren't getting funded enough. This is my words, 00:46:58.467 --> 00:47:01.071 not yours, so I can't get you in trouble with the General Assembly. 00:47:01.402 --> 00:47:07.107 But in my opinion, lobbying for state employees, the General Assembly is not 00:47:07.107 --> 00:47:12.517 and has not forever been funding agencies adequately to do the work. 00:47:12.517 --> 00:47:15.897 If you visit all 100 counties and 00:47:15.897 --> 00:47:19.722 talk to people, that's one of the first things you find out in our job. 00:47:20.761 --> 00:47:25.922 Now, your agency and LAPS salary money, we've had agency heads come in here 00:47:25.922 --> 00:47:30.340 and they have told us wild things about how they had to use LAPS salary money. 00:47:31.372 --> 00:47:33.983 And that it wasn't just some sort of slush fund sitting around. 00:47:34.615 --> 00:47:41.042 It became part of the basics of, I'm talking light bills, things like that. 00:47:41.588 --> 00:47:45.204 You know, paying vendors who otherwise would have been stiffed by the state. 00:47:45.778 --> 00:47:50.045 So what is your agency's experience with LAPS salary money? 00:47:50.568 --> 00:47:55.182 Laps salary is something that we've had to use for operational needs with, 00:47:55.182 --> 00:48:00.022 like you said, utilities, paying the bills, paying vendors, training, 00:48:00.022 --> 00:48:04.140 any training that needs to happen because there isn't a training budget per se. 00:48:04.476 --> 00:48:10.512 Gas, you know, the fuel for law enforcement officers and JJ staff. 00:48:11.343 --> 00:48:18.618 So that's where a lot of these lap salary dollars are going just to kind of keep the lights on. 00:48:18.947 --> 00:48:23.242 And I'll be honest with you, we've not had a single agency head who's come in 00:48:23.242 --> 00:48:26.511 here who has not indicated exactly that. 00:48:26.877 --> 00:48:30.632 So, you know, I think that's where the whole lap salary discussion, 00:48:30.632 --> 00:48:34.104 again, it was useful to a degree, but it was also, 00:48:35.052 --> 00:48:38.892 it almost got spun on its head to where we feared a lot more jobs would be cut, 00:48:39.875 --> 00:48:42.412 than even ended up being cut. 00:48:42.412 --> 00:48:47.723 Even Director Lassiter, remember when he was talking about how he has to, 00:48:48.192 --> 00:48:53.632 he's federally mandated to have a certain number of jobs, so he has to fill them. 00:48:54.718 --> 00:48:59.798 With attempts, which do it in ways that cost more. 00:49:00.146 --> 00:49:04.392 You'd like to get people on and give them a decent salary and benefits and keep them. 00:49:05.214 --> 00:49:09.932 But, yeah, I feel for everybody trying to run an agency right now because that 00:49:09.932 --> 00:49:12.278 is very, it's hard to plan for. but. 00:49:13.165 --> 00:49:18.326 I think that the other thing that we've pointed out is that since 2009, 00:49:19.001 --> 00:49:23.935 the number of state employees has not increased, but the population's increased, I think, by 19 percent. 00:49:24.353 --> 00:49:29.034 That's unbelievable. So particularly where public safety is concerned, 00:49:29.034 --> 00:49:34.134 how do you keep 19 percent more people as safe with basically the same number 00:49:34.134 --> 00:49:37.359 of personnel trying to accomplish that mission? 00:49:38.011 --> 00:49:43.565 And that's a constant struggle. It's a constant challenge. the need for more resources. 00:49:43.938 --> 00:49:48.604 Again, the responsibility has remained. And in many instances, 00:49:48.604 --> 00:49:50.074 it's greater than it was. 00:49:50.554 --> 00:49:57.054 So trying to match our resources to our mission and what our responsibilities are, 00:49:57.554 --> 00:50:02.434 it is, we're constantly asking for, we've asked for additional positions in various parts, 00:50:03.180 --> 00:50:09.031 of the agency, not just within some of the divisions, but in some of the support roles, too, because 00:50:09.454 --> 00:50:12.664 as the agency grows, you know, as the public needs increase, 00:50:12.664 --> 00:50:17.454 so do the needs for the administrative support roles that support the divisions 00:50:17.454 --> 00:50:19.974 that do the work. I sound like a broken record. 00:50:20.734 --> 00:50:24.944 No, you actually, you just hit on something really people don't probably have 00:50:24.944 --> 00:50:26.898 the time to bring up, but you hit it. 00:50:27.613 --> 00:50:30.765 And I think this gets lost in the legislative process, too. There's a lot of 00:50:31.004 --> 00:50:36.923 administrative folks who are absolutely necessary for frontline folks to get it done. 00:50:36.923 --> 00:50:41.993 It's easy to get a political body to get excited about the frontline folks and 00:50:41.993 --> 00:50:46.152 think that everybody back in a cubicle is superfluous. 00:50:46.750 --> 00:50:49.263 Absolutely untrue. So I'm really glad you touched on it. 00:50:50.663 --> 00:50:54.613 To get bills paid, you're going to need, you know, more folks in the controller's 00:50:54.613 --> 00:50:56.009 office, in the budget office. 00:50:56.334 --> 00:51:00.323 To tell our story, we need more folks in the communications office, 00:51:00.323 --> 00:51:05.803 in HR to do the hiring. I mean, you know, any expansion of responsibility also 00:51:05.803 --> 00:51:09.993 comes with a need, an expansion of the need. Takes a whole team. 00:51:10.614 --> 00:51:14.913 So my last question, and then if you guys have any, you can chime in. 00:51:14.913 --> 00:51:19.663 But what is your message to DPS employees who may be listening right now? 00:51:20.103 --> 00:51:24.523 So I would just thank DPS employees for what they do every single day. 00:51:24.523 --> 00:51:30.173 I thank them for their commitment. I thank them for their dedication to public 00:51:30.173 --> 00:51:31.609 service and public safety. 00:51:32.126 --> 00:51:37.081 We see them. I see them. And they make North Carolina safer. 00:51:37.435 --> 00:51:44.983 Every role in the department has a unique contribution to public safety overall. 00:51:44.983 --> 00:51:49.804 And I am grateful as a secretary, but also as a North Carolinian. 00:51:50.420 --> 00:51:54.143 Great answer. And thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. 00:51:54.143 --> 00:51:56.174 I enjoyed talking to you. Likewise.