TRANSCRIPT 🔗
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Hey, welcome everybody.
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Good to have you back.
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This week's guest on the original sports podcast with Mark Meriday.
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We will be talking with Paul Stewart.
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Stewart is a formal professional ice hockey player and best known for his work in the NHL as a referee.
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He was inducted in the United States Hockey Hall of Fame in 2018, and he's the grandson of Bill Stewart.
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Stewart played in both the World Hockey Association and the National Hockey League.
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He played with Marc Messier for the Cincinnati Stingers.
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His last season of pro hockey was 79 and 80 with the Quebec Nordiques.
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After his playing days ended, he had a lengthy career as an NHL referee.
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He officiated, check this out, 1,010 regular season games, 49 playoff games.
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His most uh cherished uh game he refereed was the 1987 Canada Cup, uh the 1991 Canada Cup, and he also officiated two All-Star Games.
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He never wore a helmet during his officiating career, which is also a claim to fame and a throwback.
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Uh from the 1994-95 NHL season until his retirement in 2003, he wore number 22.
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Uh, Stewart is the men's and women's league director of officiating for the ECAC hockey, and in 2012 also took on duties as a judicial and disciplined consultant to the Continental Hockey League, the KHL.
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We're going to talk with Paul about his career as a professional hockey player from playing for the Broom Dusters, where he claims he spent more time in the penalty box than he did on the ice through his time in the AHL.
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Uh, we get in depth on his post-playing days and discuss the life of an NHL referee.
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Um, we'll also talk to Paul uh about what it's been like since retiring from officiating in 2003.
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For his We Just Got a No segment, we'll ask Paul to share some of his uh uh best guys that were his linesmen during his time as an NHL referee.
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Hey, welcome everybody to this episode of the Original Sports Podcast with Mark Meriday.
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Uh my guest today is uh a really interesting and uh uh insightful uh young man.
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Um loved watching this guy referee hockey games, loved following his career when he was younger.
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Uh Paul Stewart, how are you today, Paul?
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I'm well, Mark.
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Thanks very much.
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And uh we're just anticipating the storm here in Massachusetts.
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Uh 68 inches.
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We're we're supposed to get some we're supposed to get some weather down here in Maryland.
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Uh they start closing schools at the mention of it down here.
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And me being a teacher, uh, I'm just anticipating that that text come across my phone.
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So um, yeah.
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Another thing we have in common.
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Uh I I've been a school teacher myself.
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Excellent.
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Excellent.
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What grade do you teach?
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Well, I taught middle school for two years, and then I was in the high school and I was a uh substitute, but permanent.
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And basically, because of my education, when I was in the middle school, instead of just going from class to class and babysitting, I brought uh a bag of dictionaries and I would hand them out and I would say to the kids, find a word you don't think I know.
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And I'd put it up on the board and I would dissect it by syllables and uh some of the I speak French and I took Latin and and uh the kids, if they stumped me, they they got a free ice cream at lunch.
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And we made a great game of it, and I thought it had positive moments and it kept things fun for us.
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And then in a high school education, the headmaster handed me a clipboard and the the key and and and the hall pass.
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Uh, can you teach this?
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And I looked at the clipboard, I said, I'll see you at two o'clock.
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And I came back and he said to me, Um, can you come back tomorrow?
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I I looked in on you and everything seemed to be going okay.
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I said, No problem, I'll be here tomorrow.
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He said, We don't get many substitutes that can teach Latin.
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I said, Whennie weedy weeky.
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Did you like it?
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Did you like teaching?
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I did.
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My dad had been a teacher for 37 years at the same high school.
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He only missed 10 days out of all those years.
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Holy crap.
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He was the football, hockey, and baseball coach and had a lot of uh different types of kids.
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It was a very eclectic school, Boston English, the oldest public school in America.
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And his uh best athlete was William McDonough, the great sports writer and NFL analyst.
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And uh, as well, he had a guy named uh Leonard Nimoy.
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Load full transcript
Oh, wow, that's pretty he also had uh Lewis Farrakhan.
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Oh, no way, yeah.
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So there are a lot of uh different types of kids.
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I remember growing up with them, and uh it was not worried about diversity in that school because there were all different types and everybody got along.
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37 years and he missed 10 days.
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That's amazing, man.
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I 10 days by one injury.
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He broke his coccyx.
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Uh he fell at Yale, uh refereeing a game.
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And back in those days, the referees didn't wear the padding, uh the girdle, or any of that stuff.
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They just wore uh worsted wool pants, a cup, maybe, and uh small little shin pads, and a striped sweater and a whistle.
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Nice.
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So growing up in a hockey family, it must have been exciting.
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Well, I'm not too sure that I ever thought it was exciting.
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I just thought it was part of the normal routine.
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And yeah, we went uh cyclical from you know, like the salmon swimming upstream.
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Um, you know, in the late August, my dad would have us come to the school and help him unpack all the football equipment and put put the shoes and the helmets and the hip pads and the cleats and all that on the different shelves.
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And then when the kids came in for practice, you know, we would hand them out with a duffel bag.
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And uh after that, we would go to this ice cream store called Brigham's and have a frap or a milkshake with ice cream.
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Yeah.
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And then in the in the winter, right after Thanksgiving, uh hockey would start.
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And then in the spring, it was always cold.
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Um, I'd be fetching foul balls, chasing them and shagging them down, and he'd give me a nickel apiece.
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And uh he had a lot of great players, and some guys went on and played uh college hockey uh football and baseball and hockey, of course.
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But he uh my dad was proud of all the kids, and it's interesting because we would go into uh Jimmy's harbor side, and most of the kids, most of the fellows that worked there were Greek, and he would walk in and say, Ah, Sophocles.
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I said, Dad, how do you know them?
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Oh, he was in class of 48, and and and uh Stefanos, uh you know, he was class of 55, and I think his dedication is not seen as much these days.
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No, it's it's I'll be honest with you, it's tough to be a teacher today.
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I I love what I do, I coached forever.
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Um, you know, I've done everything I can from my perspective, but it's it's a tough profession today.
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Uh, I'm sure your dad uh uh was able to develop his relationships differently than we can today.
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And there's a lot of reasons behind it, but um I remember those teachers like your dad growing up more so than than the teachers like we basically have today because people are so handcuffed uh with what they can do.
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Paul, you played for the Broom Dusters.
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Yeah, all right.
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I know you did this.
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My father-in-law had season tickets, my brother-in-law uh told me all about your your career there because my wife comes from that Binghamton area.
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Can you talk about that a little bit?
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Because I know when you and I originally talked, uh you were the penalty minutes holder.
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You I think you told me, I think you said to me that you spent more time in the box than you did on the ice.
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Well, interestingly enough, in 1975, I was a senior at the University of Pennsylvania, and the university had an Ivy League, uh, you know, certainly an Ivy League uh status, and we had a team in Division I ECAC hockey.
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But what happened was right in December, the Arabs shut down the oil, and the school, because they had such high-rise buildings, decided that they couldn't operate and heat all the buildings with the oil embargo.
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So the school decided on December 13th to shut down the school after the last exams prior to the holidays.
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And in the meantime, I had played my sophomore year on the varsity.
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Junior year I practiced every day and never played a game.
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In my senior year, I played in three games, and in fact, I was scoring quite a bit and doing well.
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They had moved me up to wing.
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And the coach told me, he took his glasses off like this, and said, uh, I'm not going to use you the rest of the year.
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So the oil embargo actually ended up being uh a blessing because I had talked to a few fellows around the rink, one of them, Bob Kelly, the Flyers practice at the rink, and he said to me, Pick the worst team in the worst league and start there and work your way up.
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And my mother had given me a book, Up from the Miners, from with Stan Fischler.
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He had written it.
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And I got on the bus,$14, went to Binghamton, got off.
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I had a couple
friends, teammates of mine, uh Richie Hart and Steve Sterling, who had played at BU and Richie Hart at BC.
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And they got me a tryout.
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And I went out the first day, it was a uh a rank covered but not enclosed.
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Grippin Park was cold.
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And uh I remember Kenny Davidson who played at Dartmouth and was Bruins property, said, uh, so kid, you think this is pro hockey?
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You know, because here we are out in the outdoors, and guys are smoking cigars and cigarettes, and you know, I'm my eyes are wide open.
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We played the next night against Buffalo Norsemen in the North American Hockey League.
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And I got an assist on my first shift at a fight.
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Um, and the coach afterwards, Wayne Claremont, said, you know, that guy didn't look out of place.
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And a couple the next night we played Johnstown, and of course, that was in the era with the Hanson brothers and Carlson flip-flop.
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It's actually the Carlson brothers and Dave Hanson, but um my dance card was full that night, and uh they subsequently signed me to a contract for$250 a week.
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And I I lived in the Skylark motel for a hundred bucks a month.
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Wait a minute, the Skylark is that over yes.
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Yeah, that's my beside my wife's family's house.
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Was that her that I was flirting with?
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I kid you not, my friend.
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I kid you not.
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That's unbelievable.
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Well, all all of hockey, and a fellow that should have received the Lester Patrick Award for his contribution to hockey in the United States was a fellow that played at Clarkson.
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He was from Parry Sound, he was Bobby Orr's next door neighbor.
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He went to Clarkson, he met his wife there.
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Uh his name was Jim Matthews, and he ended up um doing quite well.
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Uh he owned uh several car businesses, he owned Matco Tool, he owned Matco Electric.
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He uh started to work with IBM to to uh recycle computers and all of the you know the the parts and metals that are in it.
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Yeah, clever guy, and he took a liking to me.
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And many times the coach, a couple times at any rate, my first year wanted to trade me and he wouldn't let me go.
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And I played 46 games, I had 44 majors for fighting, I had 273 minutes and penalties, but you have to remember there weren't very many American kids playing in the pros, and especially a collegiate kid with with uh a
grotten school education coming off the bus.
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We were we were used to hanging with the uh Roosevelts and the Chaunceys and the and the and the Billings and all those folks, the Peabodies.
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So I I I was fortunate that Jim Matthews and his wife Judy and and the and the and the coach Larry Kish, Paul Brown was the GM.
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They they all I don't know if they loved me, but they stuck with me.
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And they and I I forged my way.
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And that spring, I watched Kurt Bennett knock Dave Maloney out on a game in Madison Square Garden, and I wrote John Ferguson a note because he was saying, I'm gonna find some tough guys.
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I said, I'm a tough guy, and I went to the Rangers training camp.
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And it was ironic because here I was at the University of Pennsylvania, not able to play.
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And my first game in the National League, an exhibition, was against the Flyers.
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And uh I had a fight uh the first minute, I lasted only a minute, and uh it was interesting because I sort of started to you know prove my point that I could play and I could skate and and that I was a tough kid, and especially in those days in the 70s, you know, the fire set the pace.
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So I I ended up going to Edmonton and the WHA and I went to Bang back to Binghamton.
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I played in the North American League some more than in the American League, and then uh Cincinnati picked me up in the WHA.
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I was there for a couple years, and um then Jacques Demares, my coach in Cincinnati.
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Uh, when the NHL expansion draft happened, they took me to Quebec.
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So how'd you like playing with Messier?
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Didn't you get to play with Messier?
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Well, it was interesting.
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Uh, he just had his book come out, and when I was in Cincinnati, I was living in a hotel, and and Mark and I ended up rooming together.
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And you could tell he was young, and I took him for his first beer after back then, the drinking age was 18.
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And I took him for his first beer, and I went into Sleep Out Louis, a place down near the riverfront stadium in the Coliseum.
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And uh, I see this red Porsche out front, and it was Pete Rose.
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Oh, and I walk in, and I I knew Pete, and I said to him, Uh, oh, this is Mark Messier, and Mark had on a uh a checkered uh woolen shirt and uh red and black, and he had on um bib overalls, uh jeans, and had on some uh winter boots, and and uh he got up, he met Pete, and he walked into the bathroom.
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Pete leaned over and said, Jesus, he looks like he fell off a tractor.
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But um you messier only scored one goal that year, and it was interesting, it was against Hartford.
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I was there, he flipped the puck from center right, he skated the bench, he sat down, and by the time the puck hit the net, he was sitting on the bench, he wasn't even on the ice.
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And later on in his career, which was very you know noteworthy, he quite a career.
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Um he he came over to argue me one night about something, and and I was refereeing, and I said to him, Be careful now.
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I said, or I'll go over the bench and tell him about your first goal.
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He was he was quite the player, uh yeah, and I got to play with his brother Paul in the American League as well.
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And his father, Doug, of course, uh had been a coach.
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And I always say about uh Doug and Paul and Mark that you know the terrific family, but I was always kind of mad at him.
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And the reason was they they never told me they had a sister.
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Oh wow, there you go, and she's kind of cute, but she married a guy named Esposito, and they had they have a son who played at Harvard, and uh I used to see Mark quite often at the Harvard games and uh his sister and her husband and uh Doug and the whole family.
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And you know, I I count on my on my hands and I run out of fingers about how many people that I've met and how many people I've had uh interaction with, and how many people I can actually say, Oh, he's a friend of mine.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I I think Mess is one of those guys.
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And Gretzky not too far behind.
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Do you think where let me ask you this where does Messier rank in the top 10, let's say the top 10 players in in the league?
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Oh overall throughout the course of time.
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You know, it's an interesting, it's sort of a broad question because of the fact that you have you know a whole uh span of players that you know, from when I was a boy watching the Bruins when Or came up and and they started to televise games, and uh you look at and you look at it at the players that I played with or against in the era, and you look at Bobby Hull and you look at Gordy Howe, and you look, and I played against those guys.
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And of course, when I was a boy, I just watched them.
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If I could get a ticket to the garden, because even though the Bruins weren't so good, to get a ticket to go to the games was tough.
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But you know, my grandfather had been in the
league, and I always managed to somehow find a way.
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I spent more time watching college hockey, but if you if you're talking about that era from the 70s onward, and maybe even start it in 1970 when the Bruins won the cup, and 71 when when Montreal won, and 72 the Bruins, and then and then you go on from there, and then my career playing against the Islanders, and they won four in a row, and then starting to referee and you know, being in Edmonton and seeing that you know that whole uh that whole hurricane of players that that they had, that whole driving force.
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You know, I I I look at Messier and Gretzky and Lemieux all as the front of the line.
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If if life is a buffet, you know, they're the ones that get to start.
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And you look at those fellas, and those are just the fellas up front.
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Yeah.
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And when you look at the guys at the tail and you look at Bork and you look at Chelios, you know, that's a pretty good lineup.
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And then goaltending, and you look at Fuhr and Brodeur and and Wah, you you have to think, you know, you were lucky to be able to see these guys and be on the ice with them.
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So oftentimes people ask me this question, you know, who is the best you ever saw?
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Well, I think Lemieux, Mario Lemieux, was probably the best individual player I ever saw.
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He could carry a team on his own back.
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And a lot of times, and I I now look back on it, you know, we didn't necessarily call as many penalties for the fouls that he was incurring that that we should have.
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And, you know, they mugged him a little bit, and but he was so big and strong, he could carry guys on his back.
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And yeah, you know, he'd one hand the puck and he, you know, he had more moves.
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And then you look at his supporting cast with Jagger and and Stevens and some of those other fellows.
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So they he was a guy that made a team individually great.
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But Gretzky could take 18 also rants and turn them into a team.
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Yeah, and he and and Bork, if you look at the successes that he had over the years, and especially with the Bruins, because they weren't always that talented, he was a commanding force on the ice.
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And he always played a lot of minutes.
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And I I you know I had played against him and then I saw him play.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:21:00.640
And I think that you know, you look at him, and he was playing sometimes 25 to 30, 35 minutes a game.
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:14.559
As a referee, I used to when I saw him double up or triple up and he had to kill a pelling, I always made sure that I was in behind him because those were the only times when he was really tired that he'd ever make a mistake.
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:16.799
He didn't make very many.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:18.319
He was so unique.
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:29.200
You look at those fellas and you and and you look at the goaltending, and of course, Fure was he was in a different era because the pads weren't the same.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:34.880
But when you get to Warren Brodeur, not only were they big, but they had bigger pads.
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:39.359
So, you know, and they played the game a lot differently.
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:46.640
When I was a player early in the 70s, there weren't too many goaltenders that could shoot the puck.
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:48.240
Now they all can.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.440
Yeah, so the games evolved and changed.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:58.960
And I look at all of those particular players, and just headberg said this to me once how many goals you get in the NHL, and I said, Two.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:21:59.680
He says for two.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.000
Balls, he said, everybody knows you.
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:03.359
Absolutely.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:04.079
Absolutely.
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.839
I mean, I mean, your toughness as a tough guy.
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:09.359
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:17.440
But you know, my my fondest memories of you as a hockey fan since I was a little kid were more as you commanding the ice as a referee.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.240
You let the guys play, but I enjoyed the way you kept the game in check.
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:32.559
That was like one of my favorite things about, and I was a season ticket holder for the Penn back in uh their two-cup era, the the two uh the first two cups, and then I moved away.
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.200
But uh, you know, I you were always my favorite guy.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:37.440
It wasn't Frazier or anybody else.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.559
Always loved when you had control of the ice because I knew the game was going to be be a solid game.
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:51.440
And I also knew that when there was some fighting to happen, you'd let them go ahead and tangle a little bit uh until it got to the point where uh let me get this split up.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:23:04.160
I have two two stories about Pittsburgh, and I did always enjoy going in there, and it is one of America's most um lovable and uh American cities of all.
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:17.599
Uh, I think when you come through that tunnel and you and you from the airport and you come or from Green Tree and you come through and you see that vista uh of the three rivers and and the stadium and and the buildings and everything, it's it's impressive.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:20.319
And I have a lot of friends in Pittsburgh.
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:33.279
Uh a boy I went to school with Frank Schuy, his father was the the
dressing room manager, and you know, we went to we went to secondary school together, and his dad was always so kind.
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:38.160
And then Chip Burke was the uh the team doctor, and he and I grew up together.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:47.759
And you know, there were a lot of things like that that that made coming to Pittsburgh fun, but in particular, there are two um stories.
00:23:48.400 --> 00:24:05.119
One night uh in the Staling Cup playoffs, I was the standby referee and I was in the dress room riding the bike, and Wayne Bonnie, the linesman, got hurt, and I'm watching the game on TV and I'm riding the bike to keep my legs warm in case I have to go out.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:11.119
I had my skates on, and all I needed was a linesman's sweater.
00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:17.440
So I'm walking down the hall and they're taking Bonnie up the hall on a gurney.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:19.599
And I said, give me your sweater.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:32.240
And he did, and I'm putting it on, trying to put it on as I'm walking down the hallway, and the cameraman's zooming in on me, and I'm 30 feet from the ice, and the place is booming and yelling, Stuart sucks.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:33.519
I get a kick out of that.
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:34.799
I thought that was a riot.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:43.039
I said to Gary Bettman later, you think uh taking our names off our sweaters really uh stopped these people from knowing who we are?
00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:55.759
And uh the other the other part of it uh was um with Mario uh toward the uh toward the end of his career, he was really hurting.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:02.640
And he he and Chip Burke had told me that he could barely tie his skates and he was in tough shape.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:07.039
And I saw him one night and I said, you know, I said, I gotta do you a big favor.
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:08.000
He says, What's that?
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:09.680
I said, I'm gonna toss you.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:18.000
Well, the penguins were winning, and it was toward the middle or late part of the third period, so it wasn't like you know I was affecting the game.
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:23.119
I said, All you need to do is slam that stick on the ice and just give me the finger in the chest thing.
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.440
And he did, and I I pitched him.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:30.160
So uh I went to the dressing room later, and there was a a case of beer waiting for me.
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:56.960
But but the best part of Pittsburgh, and I think a I think a moment that really affected me, and and I tell this story because I've been to Pittsburgh a bunch giving talks for Billy Sweetie and USA Central Central uh America coaches and with Chip Burke and a lot of my other friends uh in the hockey business that live in that area.
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:02.880
I was ref in a game one night in Pittsburgh, and the late great uh Bob Johnson was coaching.
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:13.279
Yeah, and I was
on the uh I was on the end of the ice where the penguins came on, and uh the puck went in the net and I disallowed the goal.
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:22.559
And I'm skating up to the penalty box, to the timer to report the goal, and I just happened to look to the side, and there's Bob Johnson.
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:37.039
And you know, he he he used to take the the paper out of his pocket and write, and he looked over and I our eyes met, and he gave me the same look that my father used to give me when he was disappointed.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:54.880
It's a coach's look, it's it's it's a it's a parental look, and and somehow between when I caught his eye and I was at the blue line and I got to the red line, I said, maybe you know, I I had second thoughts, and maybe I'm wrong.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:04.400
But I went with the call and the play went on, and a little later there's a TV time out, and I just happened to skate over between the two benches.
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:23.119
There was some snow there, and I pretended I was kicking it away, and he walked down the bench area and he was fiddling with the sticks, and he leaned over, and no one in the building but uh Stevie Latton, who was standing there, the trainer, yeah, and and Bob Johnson and myself knew what was said.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:29.680
And Johnson leaned over and said to me, Paul, I think you're one of the best referees that we have.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.759
I think you'll see that that wasn't your best call.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:42.000
And he put the piece of paper back in his pocket and walked to the other end of the bench, he made me a better referee.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:44.240
I'm gonna tell you that.
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:48.559
And that night I went to the hotel Marriott across the street.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.359
I bet you I didn't get five minutes of sleep.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.920
And I just used to tell that story when I addressed coaches.
00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:05.200
Because if you want to get a referee to think and be better, do Bob Johnson.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:06.960
Don't do Bob Knight.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:07.680
Yeah.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:16.559
Did you like after you ref games, would you go back and look at them to see, you know, like kind of you know, like did do refs do that?
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:17.839
Do you do that in the offseason?
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:19.039
Do you do that in the regular season?
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:21.839
Like, I don't think people understand this.
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:35.119
No, we we would get tape of the games, and later on it became uh DVDs, and you know, of course, we could shove them in our computer, and you'd you know, I I memorized the games.
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:43.599
I I remember the games even now, all these years later, I can still remember moments, plays, who said what, and da-da-da-da-da.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:57.279
But what's interesting is that when I we we sold our house after 23
years, and one of the one of the heaviest boxes was all that all the all the VCR tapes, yeah, from games all over.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:01.759
And I did over a thousand games in the NHL, and I have a lot of tape.
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:17.200
And it's interesting because the greatest game I ever refereed was Canada Cup in '87 with uh game two, double overtime, Russia versus Canada in in Hamilton, Cops Coliseum.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:40.720
And I disallowed two Russian goals, and at the end, double overtime, Lemieux scored, Gretzky assisted, Gretzky had five assists that game, Lemieux had a hat-trick, and yet I watched that game and I see things that maybe I would have done differently had I seen it quite as much as I see it now on the tape.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:47.839
But the other part of it is it's interesting because I even did this after my last game ever refereed in the NHL.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:54.319
I looked at the tape and I was saying to myself, you know, I could I could fix my positioning on that.
00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:08.079
And it's when I became a supervisor of officials in the American League for the National League, and then I became the director of officiating for ECAC College Hockey, and then I went to Russia and ran the officiating with the KHL.
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:20.720
I used to talk about positioning selling calls that if you're in great sight lines and you have a feel for the game, you you'll make the call, the correct call.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:27.759
And and I owe that also to Frank Advari, who said to me one night in an American League game when I was I was young.
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:31.200
I wasn't young as a person, young as a referee.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:35.119
He said to me, You know, you used to play.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:37.759
Forget the book, feel the game.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.039
If they did it to you and you'd be pissed off, that's pelling.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:46.559
If they did it to you, your teammate, and you'd want to go fight the guy, that's a penalty.
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:51.200
And if your teammate did it to somebody and you went, oh my god, what was that for?
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:53.519
That's a penalty.
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:55.759
The rest of it, academics.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:01.440
Just you go feel the game, you have an advantage because you played and you played tough.
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:04.240
Plus, your father and your grandfather were referees.
00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:08.720
I I don't think that you were talking a lot of football at the Thanksgiving table.
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:20.319
So, you know, that's a look if you had to look back and say this was the most memorable game that I ever officiated, what game do you think you'd pick?
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:30.880
Well, I think that Canada Cup game, because people have said that that 87 Canada Cup game two was the greatest game ever played.
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.720
And I had never refereed a full game in the NHL.
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:35.920
Oh wow.
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:50.880
And John McCaulay, glad rest his soul, Wes's dad had great confidence in me, and Scottie Morrison had confidence in me, and Rennie Fazel, the president of the IIHF, who just retired, they he all they all had confidence in me.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:32:08.720
And it's interesting because I I often watch the movie 12 o'clock high, and I remember Frank Savage, the general, saying, the last thing in the world these guys will want to do when they have pride is to let these people down.
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:14.240
Yeah, and the last thing I wanted to do was let those fellas down.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:30.160
And uh it's unfortunate that Macaulay died because after that uh I I didn't necessarily work for people that had as much care for me as as those fellas had.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:40.799
And I I survived, I went through a lot of different things, but and it's it's you know something I suppose I even at my age now, I should let it go.
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:56.559
But I'm so competitive that you know bothers me still that I never worked the Stanley Cup Finals, and it's something that'll keep me out of the National Hockey League Hall of Fame because I was a good referee, and I don't have a problem with saying that, and it's not boasting.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:03.359
I had a good career despite people that roadblocked me.
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:04.880
Oh, I definitely believe you did.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.480
I I'm 100% with you.
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:14.640
Uh I gotta tell you that you I'm not kidding, you are one of the reasons I thoroughly enjoy going to penguin games.
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:26.559
I I mean, back in the day, I thought the games would get a little bit uh crazy because you know, you had I don't know, it was just a different game then, and I'd like to talk about that with you.
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.720
How it is I have one more story about Pittsburgh though, and this is a great one.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:34:28.960
I worked back-to-back games with Philadelphia, and it was like um Easter Sunday weekend, and so it was Saturday in Philly afternoon, Sunday in Pittsburgh, and in the third period, um Philadelphia was winning the game, and they were winning by three to one, and um Samuelson was playing for the Flyers, wasn't playing for Pittsburgh at the time, and he clocked the guy with the stick, so I gave him a major pelling with three minutes to go, so that's a five-minute pelling, and then another flyer, and I forget who it was, might have been talking, ran a guy on the sideboards and slipped the elbow up and whacked him into the glass along the sideboards at the spectrum, and uh he took him pretty hard.
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:35.360
The game was on you know, the game of the week Saturday game with NBC, I guess, or whatever.
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.000
So I I got the Flyers, two men down.
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:38.800
Yeah, what do you think?
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:40.159
Pittsburgh, bang, bang.
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:46.559
They tie it, but that five-minute penalty carried into the overtime, and they and the flyer flyers lost.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.840
So they screwed the penguins scored three goals in the last two and a half minutes, if you get my drift.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:53.760
Yeah, I definitely on power plays.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:56.559
So I'm walking off the ice.
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.360
I think that was it, or it was Pittsburgh, it was the other way around.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:04.800
Pittsburgh was winning, and and the Flyers ended up winning.
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:10.079
So it the reason I I forget, I mean, I a lot of game well in my helmet.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:17.039
But anyway, I'm coming off the ice and the Alt Morganti's there, and he's a good guy, and I know him.
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:23.519
And he said, and here comes the referee Paul Stewart, probably not the most favorite guy in Pittsburgh today.
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:29.679
And I walked up and I took the microphone from him and I said, if they didn't like me today, they're gonna love me tomorrow.
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:31.599
I'll be in Pittsburgh at one o'clock.
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:32.880
Have a nice night.
00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:35.440
I get off that plane.
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:37.840
I flew to Pittsburgh that night.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:44.719
I get off that plane and went through the airport, and people were pointing, and you know, I could hear them chatting about me.
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:59.280
So it's kind of funny, but you know, I it it's kind of funny because you know, you develop relationships with guys, yeah, and it was just one of those, one of those moments.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:08.880
So we go to Pittsburgh the next day, and the two linesmen we go out, we walk around, and we walk out to the Zamboni door, which was the way we had to go on and off the ice.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:16.559
Yeah, and I go out, it was Jerry Goce and Pat Tapuzo, and I go out and I skate around and they wouldn't come out.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:22.880
I'm skating around by myself for the warm-up, and the fans are booing the hell out of me.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:27.760
I'm out there by myself, two laps after I had screwed the penguins.
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:31.679
I guess I guess that's uh fuel to the fire, though, when you ref that game, right?
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.000
And after a while they forgot about me and went on, you know.
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.760
Yeah, but what's the most vicious fight you had to break up?
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:43.360
Well, it was funny.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:50.960
Uh, there was a kid playing for uh Quebec, I think later on he played in Buffalo, but his name was Wayne Van Dork.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:37:01.760
I remember him, and yeah, and uh um kid for the Bruins, um big tough Lyndon Byers.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:10.719
They there was a TV timeout and they were bumping into each other, and you know, the they're they're lined up, but the the lights on and we can't drop the puck.
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.920
And they kept bumping each other and you know, and sticking their sticks up and mouthing off and everything.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.360
And the linesman turned around.
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:20.239
I said, I said to the linesman, don't worry about those guys.
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:25.920
And I skated over and I said, When that light goes off, you can beat the shit out of each other.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:27.039
I don't care.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.239
So they kept jostling.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:35.440
Finally, I said to the linesman, drop the puck.
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:36.719
He goes, the light's not on.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:38.159
I said, doesn't matter.
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:42.880
Bam! Bias hit him one punch, knocked him flat cold.
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:46.800
And I thought, I thought he killed him, to be frank.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:48.400
I thought he killed him.
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:52.000
Uh it was one of the toughest punches I've ever seen.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:57.679
But I was on the ice with guys like Tony Twist and and um you know Probert.
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:02.639
I I was in Chicago one night with Probert, Steele Cup playoff against Minnesota.
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:09.760
And Probert and and I think McCrae, they you know were leaning into each other on the opening face-off.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.039
And I dropped the puck, but instead of facing the timer, I turned around to face them so I could watch what they were doing.
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:30.639
You know, they were behind me, and I turned around and I dropped the puck, and then I stood there and they dropped their gloves, and Probert hit McCrae with a punch, and he hit him so hard he spun him.
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:37.039
And when he did, crack! And Probert grabbed and he was about to throw another punch.
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.199
Basil had broken his leg.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:44.320
And Probert held up and waved to the trainer, come on out.
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:46.480
And he held him up.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:51.360
And you, you know, and the player of Minnesota, he was screaming and yelling in pain.
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:52.639
He was in tough shape.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.239
And when the trainer got there, Basil let him.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:03.199
I mean, uh, Probert let him go, and uh he skated over to me and I said, You know, I I I hate to put you in the box.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:07.360
I said, You you got a lot of class, you know, you held up.
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:16.880
And uh I thought, you know, there were some guys that uh to me I I had a lot of respect for.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:21.840
And uh he was he was one of them, and Joey Kocher was another.
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:28.159
He was a tough kid, and uh, you know, Pittsburgh had a few tough guys, Philly did.
00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:40.480
It was, you know, because I had been that guy, and I know what it was like to sit on the end of the bench and then get that shift here or there, and you know, things changed though with McSorley.
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:50.800
Sometimes players who come in with heavy baggage and expectations uh were players that I didn't necessarily jive with.
00:39:50.960 --> 00:40:08.880
And yet on the flip side, there were players like uh Gretzky and Sakik and and Bork and others that and Messier and and uh and and others that you know that we we just had that unspoken relationship.
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:16.639
I can tell you basically, I I I very rarely ever talked to Gretzky, I very rarely uh ever talked to Bork.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:29.519
He would come over to me and talk to me, and I was a guy that felt that my ability to communicate saved teams a lot of penalties because I would feel the game.
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:56.559
Theo Flore is a guy in particular that I remember that played on the edge, and he had to because he was small, he was a tiny and he, you know, he's running into Shell Samuelson who's 6'8, and Shell Samuelson's elbow is exactly right at Theo Flurry's head height, and you know, they'd they'd bump into each other, and Theo would be yelling about getting elbowed, and Shell would be yelling about getting slashed, and I'd skate over and say, Do you feel better?
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:57.760
You feel better?
00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:59.119
Whoa, what does that mean?
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:03.519
I said, Well, you you slashed him and he elbowed you, so I hope you feel better.
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:07.360
But if I have to come back and babysit you, I'll just take you guys off the ice.
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:09.760
You can sit over there and and stare at each other.
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:11.360
How about Cicerelli?
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:30.159
I I I used to go to uh Minnesota when he was playing for the North Stars, and I used to tell him, because I admired his guts, he had a lot of guts, and he went into the slot and he was in the goalie's face, and he was a tough kid and uh not big.
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:33.679
And I used to tell him, Dino, green lights on tonight, baby.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:40.480
Help yourself, you know, and as long as he wasn't using his stick, he was okay with me.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:48.159
The guy that I really, if I, you know, if I could say to my son, play like that guy is Scott Stevens.
00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:53.360
Because I thought he was the epitome of toughness, but he also could play the game.
00:41:53.679 --> 00:42:02.239
And he, you know, in all the years that he was a player, I think he had 18 years, uh, and I refereed just about that many years.
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:04.960
Um, I never penalized him.
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:25.199
And one night a player on his team in Jersey sits on to me and I banged the guy for deuce, and uh, and the kid sat down in the box, and and and
Stevens came out and he said to me, Um, come on, Stu, you know, we're really trying to win this game, and you know, I can't we can't afford this penalty.
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:29.039
I said, Well, this guy said to me that I was a buh-buh buh.
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.159
I said, We've been together what 16, 18 years.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:34.000
I said, Do you think I'm a ba-ba-ba?
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:35.599
And he said, Is that what he said?
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.800
He skated over to the box and he started screaming at the guy.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:43.519
And the kid came to me later on at a at a charity function and apologized.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:50.880
So I think Stevens had a lot of that stuff that I talk about, class, toughness.
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:52.400
I I appreciated him.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.760
And I when he played hard, I just say to him, keep the stick below the numbers, you know, in the low back.
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:58.559
I don't mind that.
00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:02.559
Below the elbow, you know, don't be breaking their arms.
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:06.719
And and um, you know, he was a he was a great contributor.
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.119
And speaking of am I right, Stevens?
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:16.559
I'm not sure if he got 20, but you know, he's like to me, he was played in St.
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:19.039
Louis, played in Washington, and played at Jersey.
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:24.639
And I just think he was just a a really solid, tough.
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:27.920
He's a guy that you could build a hockey team on, you know.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:31.599
Yeah, he was a lot of in a lot of ways like potfinn.
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:37.440
Although potfan might have been a little bit more skilled as far as puck handling and such, but sure.
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:43.760
I I I I think Stevens was the type of guy that you know he had the whole package in my mind.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:56.159
And you you know, you could take a team like uh any team that that needed a solid leader, and you put him in there and he would he would turn that team around in my mind.
00:43:56.880 --> 00:43:59.519
You think that type of leadership is gone from the game today?
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.280
The game is so different.
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:03.119
Like the game is different, Paul.
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:04.880
Let's cut right through the bullshit.
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:06.800
The game is definitely different today.
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:19.119
And well, I think that there tends to be, you know, I see this kid in Edmonton, Conor McDavid, and you know, he's got what 35, 40 points in 20 games or something.
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:23.360
And you know, he's he's a player, but the game's different.
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:37.599
But they always saddle those guys with the leadership role because they're the guys that have to come to the to the to the fore when you know things are tough, and the players on the bench look for that player to do to do that.
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:44.559
And I, you know, a lot of times people will ask me a question, they'll say, Who is the toughest guy you ever saw?
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:53.440
Well, if I told you some of the games and names of of players that I saw in in particular games, you know, you'd you'd say, really?
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.599
I mean, he he couldn't fight.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.800
You didn't ask me if he could fight, you asked me who was tough.
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.960
I think Joe Sackick was about as tough as anybody I ever saw.
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:05.840
And I think Paul Carrilla was a very tough kid.
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:12.079
Yeah, because they they played and they went into traffic and they took the hits.
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:19.920
And they Rick Middleton is another guy that I think he's a solid guy.
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:24.719
I've known him since he was playing in Providence uh Ranger property.
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:30.400
Uh, I I've seen him over the years, I've been on the ice with him and off the ice with him at events.
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:39.840
And I just think that had I, I I almost was the general manager, or I was a finalist for GM job in Boston way back.
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:46.559
And I told the ownership, and this was about the time that they put in the shootout.
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:55.280
I said, if I was the general manager of this hockey team, the first guy I'd sign would be Rick Middleton, only to sit on the bench for the shootouts.
00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:01.119
Because he he could stick handle in the phone booth, you know, he had more moves than a can of worms.
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:07.679
So I just, you know, to me, you know, they have guys that teach kickers how to kick.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:16.239
He would have been a great coach to teach players how to do breakaways because you couldn't hire Gretzky to do it, his his track record wasn't so good at it.
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:23.039
But although I did give him one or two along the way, I used to love to call penalty shots.
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:28.320
You think uh let's talk about this rivalry here, Crosby and Ovechkin.
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:34.480
Is that actually a rivalry, or we got a goal scorer and a more of a complete player there?
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:45.039
Well, I think if you liken it to a rivalry, then you're missing the point about what each has as far as their impact on on the game.
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:52.960
You look at at those two fellas, and I equate them more to a Sherman tank and a Porsche.
00:46:53.280 --> 00:47:02.719
And you look at Crosby and he's he's not gonna run you over, although he he can take a hit, you know, and he'll get a dent here and there, and he's more the Porsche.
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:18.320
But you look at Ovechkin and he can score goals, but his physicality is in that likelihood of conversation with Phil Esposito.
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:23.440
He's a guy that can dominate the slot and he can dominate the corners.
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:29.760
And wherever he decides to play, if you're gonna beat him, you gotta bring a little extra to the table.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:44.639
And I, you know, I look at Crosby and I see, you know, the beginning of an era where I think the league started to really adopt that preferential treatment of stars.
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:49.920
You know, Lemieux complained about it, but I don't think it ever really happened as much for him.
00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:58.400
And then you had Jagger, you could hit him with a with a telephone pole and he'd just smile, laugh, and keep skating with the puck.
00:47:58.559 --> 00:47:59.199
You know.
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:05.199
So I think it's it's you're talking two different animals, yeah.
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:09.119
And you appreciate each one for what they do.
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:12.320
I mean, you hear you hear that a lot about those two.
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:14.480
And I I don't see a comparison.
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:24.719
What I should what I should have said was a goal scorer and a more of a 200-foot player, um, but because he could because he does play 200 feet when he plays Crosby.
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:33.840
But I I see what you're saying, though, in terms of uh uh starting to give the guy who who's a superstar a little bit more uh leeway.
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:36.400
Go let's go back to Connor McDavid.
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.519
I I actually like Dry Seidel better than McDavid.
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:42.000
I like Dry Seidel's game.
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:46.320
You know, it's an interesting thing.
00:48:46.719 --> 00:49:10.320
If you think about stars, for instance, and you think about different people that they end up being married to, you like blondes, I like redheads, and you know, every team, for instance, the Bruins, the fans around here like guys that sweat.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:20.239
Yeah, and they like they like that whole that whole Don Cherry lunch pail philosophy and the big bad Bruins and all of that.
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:32.639
Yeah, so they I don't think that the people of Chelsea and Somerville and and Dorchester and South Boston have changed that much in what they like.
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:39.519
And I think individually, each team, for instance, who the crack and like, who knows?
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.320
It's still to be developed and still to be seen.
00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:52.400
But you look at individually other different teams, you know, Edmonton likes that that high, fast-paced game that's skilled.
00:49:52.639 --> 00:50:00.719
And you look at other different teams, and you know, you look at Chicago, and and they relied upon one or two guys, but great goaltending.
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:01.360
Yeah.
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:09.840
So I think everybody has their flavor, everybody has their modus operandi, who how they operate.
00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:14.880
You know, I think like one of the storied franchises in the NHL has been Montreal.
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:20.079
And I just think in the last few years, they've been a franchise that really hasn't had an identity.
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.920
They're they're not sure who the GM is, they're not sure who the coach is.
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:26.000
They they you know, they bounce back and forth.
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:26.880
Are we French?
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:28.000
Are we not French?
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:29.519
Can we get an English guy?
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:42.000
I mean, I I sit there and I, you know, I just say, you know, you're the Canadians, and the Canadians are always a big, strong, fast, you know, team with skill.
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:44.000
So go find those players.
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:44.480
Yeah.
00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:47.199
And that's to me what it's all about.
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:49.280
I talk I spoke to a GM the other day.
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:51.280
We were talking about scouting.
00:50:51.599 --> 00:51:06.159
And I said to him, and I said this to a few college coaches too, you know, you folks are in particular too fussy about what kind of leagues you scout and where you find players.
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:11.039
And I said, Who in God's name scouted Marshall?
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:15.119
I mean, he's one of the top scorers in the league.
00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:17.519
Yeah, and he's a guy that's an impacting player.
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.119
But where was he drafted?
00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:22.960
Number four, number five, and he was a pain in the ass.
00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:23.920
Yeah, right?
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:27.039
So you look at him and go, the hell did he come from?
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:28.880
I got another guy, Marty St.
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:29.440
Louis.
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:31.119
He's in the hockey hall of fame.
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.000
He came from no place as far as his ability.
00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:40.880
Yeah, he was in college, but when he showed up to the University of Vermont, nobody gave him a chance to play.
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:42.800
He just made it on his own.
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:55.280
And I think that in hockey today, we're too worried about specialists, we're too worried about uh, you know, the the hype and and all that.
00:51:55.519 --> 00:52:01.840
And instead, and the secret is, and and somebody said this to me, and I think his name was Jean Bellevaux.
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:05.360
He said to me, There's one thing about you, Paul.
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:08.880
He said, They may not like you, but you can skate.
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:12.320
And I could skate, and it was something I always worked on.
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:33.039
And I think the secret to anybody who's listening to this podcast, if you have a child or someone that wants to go on in the sport, regardless of their position, or if they even become a referee, you've got to be able to skate and use your
edges and turn and do everything without thinking about it.
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:35.679
And if you can do that, they'll never cut you.
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:37.280
Telling you that right now.
00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:42.639
And I can name you 10 guys that could really fly who couldn't put the puck in the ocean.
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:48.719
But they somehow they they stayed on teams and they and they made it from college to pro.
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.400
I I I could think one right now off the top of my head is Carl Haglin.
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.360
Yeah, I mean, he can skate like hell.
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:57.679
He can he can he can move.
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.320
Let me ask you this question.
00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:06.559
Who do you think is doing the best job in terms of coaches currently?
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:11.039
Because you just been such some good guys out there right now.
00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:17.039
You, I mean, uh I'm seeing some guys do some things with teams that are that are surprising to me.
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:24.880
Well, it's interesting because it's been such a hodgepodge, you know, and and I'm a traditionalist in some senses.
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:28.159
And a lot of people would say, Well, you were a referee.
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:30.400
I always liked Tortarella.
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:45.920
I always thought, you know, he was he was a guy that you could reason with and he made reasonable points, even though, you know, he, I mean, let's face facts, if you don't have a vowel on the end of your name and you don't use your hands, you're not really Italian.
00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:50.400
And that guy epitomized the whole thing to me.
00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:57.039
And you know, I I kind of enjoyed his whole and I understood him.
00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:13.760
And, you know, I think that, you know, having been on the ice with Keenan and Pat Burns and Pat Quinn and Scottie Bowman and all those fellas that are, you know, certainly legendary coaches and legendary names, you know, each one had their own particular style.
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:20.000
But I think coaching today is a different animal than it was even 10 years ago.
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:24.559
When you look at Clause Julienne, you know, here's a guy that had a lot of bus time.
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:32.559
He played in the minors, he played in the majors, he's been around the you know, with the Stanley Cup and all that other stuff, right?
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:38.559
Yeah, but you know, they dumped him out of Boston, they dumped him out of Montreal.
00:54:38.719 --> 00:54:40.159
Where's he gonna end up next?
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:42.159
You'll you'll get Toronto.
00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:43.519
I mean, it's a sideshow.
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:46.800
Who's behind the bench now?
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:51.199
And who's gonna, you know, it's and they pay all these guys all that money.
00:54:51.360 --> 00:55:06.320
So I can't really honestly answer your
question because in this day and age, I think these guys that call themselves coaches are more door openers, they open the door, the point they don't have any control over the players.
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:12.239
Players play their own way, they may have a system, but they they go off the rails quite often.
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:16.079
And that's part of what I think is missing.
00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:31.440
I had a coach say to me about recruiting a player for his school, and he said to me, I'm looking for a quarterback type defenseman that can take my power play and and you know and score.
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:34.800
And I said, Well, if you find one, it's gonna be a freshman.
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:40.480
And he's gonna go through all the stuff that freshmen go through, unless he's an individual beyond belief.
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:43.679
And if he's an individual beyond belief, he's not going to your school.
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:47.599
He's either gonna play pro or he's going to Division I school.
00:55:47.920 --> 00:56:05.199
Long story short, I said, my grandfather coached the Hawks, and when he had a power play, he put a solid defensive defenseman on one point, but he put a fast and really clever left wing on the other point.
00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:07.920
And Cully Dahlstrom.
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:12.480
And he put him there for speed and puck handling ability.
00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:17.039
And he had the defensive guy able to cover for him if he made a mistake.
00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:22.960
So I think you know, you the games changed to the point now that you don't have particular players.
00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:30.639
They all have to be able to turn and skate backwards, and they all have to be able to play not only the offensive, but also the defensive game.
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:38.719
And in some senses, with the with the red line out and the size of the players and the sticks and how things are done now.
00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:42.639
Um if you're not an offensive team, forget it.
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:48.000
But defense and good goaltending is still, and and Lulu Amarello keeps proving it.
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:50.000
Start in the net and work out.
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:53.199
Yeah, you you miss you miss being on the ice.
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:55.039
You miss being on the ice, Ruffin.
00:56:56.559 --> 00:57:00.079
You know, that's a question that I'm often asked.
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:14.719
And I think, you know, we all have like when you back in the old days, we would go to the pleasant cafe and we would get a quarter and put it in the jukebox, and we got three plays.
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:17.599
And you know, we all have that many plays.
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:26.480
And I I'm not at all bitter or or longing for the good old days.
00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:29.199
I, you know, I I had a pretty good career.
00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:39.280
And when I go up and downstairs, I know I can remember all of the injuries and the illnesses and all the things I had to combat to stay on that ice.
00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:42.559
So I don't miss that part of it.
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:50.639
What I miss is I miss going out on the ice and seeing the people because I used to love to be out there.
00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:55.840
And I and I tell people all the time, find a picture of me when I'm on the ice and I'm not smiling.
00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:59.199
Because I enjoyed myself with the players, with the coaches.
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:01.360
I used to like the kibbots with them.
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:07.280
And and to me, and a lot of people forget this, it's a game.
00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:09.760
So enjoy it.
00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:11.119
It's entertainment.
00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:11.519
Yeah.
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:17.599
And you you you want to have people, and Gretzky and I talked about this.
00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:22.000
You want to have people say when you leave that he could still go.
00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:26.159
You don't want to have them say he should have gone.
00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:40.719
And I like to think that that as much as I miss those parts of the the life, the travel, certainly the paycheck, and other different things, I I I miss the people the most.
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:54.719
Going, you know, I made a lot of friends like with Bellman and and and cab drivers and and the front office uh at the hotel and all those I you know, and the rental car people, and you know, I get to know a lot of people.
00:58:55.280 --> 00:59:03.280
And and you you you go in and you see the Zamboni driver, or you see the kid in Pittsburgh that used to sell the beer and he'd wave that top.
00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:05.039
Oh, yeah, I know the guy you're talking about.
00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:07.039
Yeah, you know, and and he used to.
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:08.800
We had a game going back and forth.
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:12.639
He'd boo me and I'd I'd I'd act like you me?
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:13.920
You're you're mad at me?
00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:17.039
I ran into him one night.
00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:19.119
I said to him, I'm the best thing that ever happened to you.
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:19.920
He says, Why is that?
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.360
I said, people get pissed at me, they throw their beer right on the ice.
00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:27.760
I said that I said that to Illich one night.
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:29.760
I said, You should have me referee here every night.
00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:32.159
I said, I'm good for 30 or 40 pizza.
00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:37.039
You know, it's yeah, I can see why they miss you.
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:38.559
That's the teacher in you, though.
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:49.840
Let me tell you, that's the that's the guy who gets in front of the classroom of uh what 20, 30,000 people, 15,000 people, and you entertain them, but you do it in a different way.
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:51.599
You're still educating them.
00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:55.039
Uh I
can see, I can see how you were a teacher, though.
00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:56.559
Hey, I do this last segment.
00:59:56.639 --> 00:59:58.079
It's called We Just Got to Know.
00:59:58.159 --> 01:00:05.039
Man, you've worked a ton of NHL games, you worked uh the Canada Cup games, you've worked with a lot of different linesmen.
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:15.280
Tell me, uh, let's say the three best linesmen you ever worked with, the guys you you enjoyed uh uh lining up with on the ice and doing your job.
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:22.800
Well, it's it's tough to say because not only did we work together, but we became friends.
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:31.599
Yeah, those guys are the reason I if I was a good official, they helped me and they got me into the hall of fame.
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:42.639
And I can't think of people that I wish I see more of, and I don't because we're spread out and we're all over the world.
01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:54.800
But sure, you know, I always like to think that when the day comes and my dark hour arrives, that at least six of them will show up and not charge me to carry me out of the church.
01:00:57.440 --> 01:00:58.880
I'm sure they'll be saying some good stuff.
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:00.559
I don't have to rent them.
01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:04.079
Hey, I want to thank you for coming on the podcast, man.
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:05.599
This has been incredible.
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:11.360
I want to thank you for everything you've done for hockey and for just making me a huge hockey fan.
01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:20.800
There are certain people, like I said, that that along the way, you as a referee, Lemieux as the player he was, that have just made me so passionate about it.
01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:23.199
In fact, my son plays ice hockey.
01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:26.000
I didn't have a rink around basically growing up.
01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:32.480
My son plays ice hockey, and uh it's a thrill for me every time we get to go to that rink and I get to watch him play.
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:39.440
And uh uh part of the reason is my passion that I've gotten from from uh guys like you.
01:01:39.519 --> 01:01:40.480
So thanks a lot.
01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:55.760
And um I well it's the one thing, it's the one thing that uh I think you take away from the Montreal Canadian dressroom, and it's to you from failing hands the torch is past.
01:01:56.320 --> 01:01:59.840
And you ask me if I miss playing or refing.
01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:03.679
I I still have a lot to give.
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:06.960
I just can't skate that way anymore.
01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:19.920
And I just physically am not able, but I I can tell you I can still think the game and I can still help a lot of kids, and I now I concentrate on helping kids skate, get skates.
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:25.599
Uh I think Willie O'Reilly is one of my favorite heroes of uh, and he's a hero.
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:27.519
Willie O'Reilly's a hero.
01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:48.800
And what
he had to encounter as a player, and you know, his physical uh disability with only one eye and all that, but what he's done for the game and how how he's been, and I've known him for a long, long time, and seeing kids skate, to me, that's the thing that gives me the biggest smile.
01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:56.960
Politics and religion aside, yeah, seeing kids have a chance to skate and play.
01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:16.559
And I see the young ones, and I I I used to go out with the young referees and break them in and uh, you know, working working mic games, helping the kids over the boards, and and you know, and I had refed in the NHL, but to me, it's all hockey and it's been a pretty good ride.
01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:18.159
I appreciate you.
01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:19.039
I do.
01:03:19.519 --> 01:03:24.800
If I ever get up there with my boy to play in that area, I'm gonna make sure I track you down so you can see him play.
01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:29.360
You uh make sure that that guy keeps working on his skating.
01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:31.519
We will and tell him the secret.
01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:36.639
The secret is if you can skate, you'll never get cut.
01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:38.639
I will definitely tell him that.
01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:39.760
Thanks again, Paul.
01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:41.119
I appreciate your time.
01:03:41.360 --> 01:03:42.239
Happy New Year.
01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:43.519
Yeah, happy new year.
01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:44.320
Take care.
01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:45.840
Incredibly awesome stuff.
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:56.400
I'd love to thank Paul Stewart once again, uh, former NHL referee and former uh professional hockey player for coming on the original sports podcast with Mark Meriday.
01:03:56.480 --> 01:04:03.760
Hey, you can find Paul on Facebook at PStuCat22 and on Twitter at Paul Stewart22.
01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:10.559
Hey, connect with us here on the original sports podcast with Mark Meriday by checking out our website, apps, and stuff like that.
01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:13.760
Uh, you can see our website, original sportspodcast.com.
01:04:13.840 --> 01:04:15.840
It has all of our episodes on it.
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:24.400
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01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:30.719
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01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:32.880
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01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:42.320
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01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:51.599
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01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:57.039
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01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:15.440
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01:05:15.679 --> 01:05:22.079
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