Full Transcript for Mark Freeman - The Mind Workout (Ep75)

00:03:59.740 gets to sell one of his audio books and you 72 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.840 get a free copy. It's not currently in the States. 73 00:04:03.900 --> 00:04:09.250 Blame Trump. And I might have to edit that out. 74 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:13.349 But yeah, also Amazon UK for this, the print version, 75 00:04:13.409 --> 00:04:16.310 and it will be out around the world soon, I believe, Mark? 76 00:04:16.509 --> 00:04:21.230 Yeah, so it should be in bookstores throughout the UK too. 77 00:04:21.870 --> 00:04:25.079 And yeah, there's a German version coming, there's a Spanish, 78 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:30.980 a Portuguese version. And then so there'll be a US version, 79 00:04:31.019 --> 00:04:34.240 a North American version next summer. And it'll actually be 80 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.589 under a different title. So I'm editing that this summer. 81 00:04:38.670 --> 00:04:42.009 And you can actually buy it in North America from 82 00:04:42.069 --> 00:04:47.610 Amazon UK and get it shipped if you want this version. Yeah, 83 00:04:47.990 --> 00:04:48.329 right here. 84 00:04:48.350 --> 00:04:50.329 Okay, cool. And I don't know if that would apply 85 00:04:50.350 --> 00:04:52.970 for Audible as well, if people in North America can 86 00:04:53.009 --> 00:04:55.300 get it via Audible or Cutty UK. 87 00:04:56.009 --> 00:04:58.860 No, it looks like there's restrictions on the digital version. 88 00:04:58.899 --> 00:04:59.220 Oh, okay. 89 00:04:59.759 --> 00:04:59.920 Yeah. 90 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:02.560 Cool. So it'll have to be the print version then, guys, 91 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:04.019 if you want it before next summer. 92 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.800 Yeah, you have to go old school. Cut down some trees. Yeah. 93 00:05:08.459 --> 00:05:10.949 All right, brilliant. So let's get into it. So obviously, 94 00:05:11.629 --> 00:05:13.610 most people listening to this podcast will know who you are, 95 00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:16.449 and they would have heard, you know, our previous episodes, 96 00:05:16.490 --> 00:05:19.009 the original talking about kind of your story and your advice, 97 00:05:19.029 --> 00:05:23.459 the next one talking about sort of internet addiction. But 98 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:26.699 this one will be largely about the book. So, you know, 99 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:27.500 what's the book about? 100 00:05:28.939 --> 00:05:36.060 Yeah, so the Mind Workout is about the fundamental... concepts 101 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:41.319 and exercises that can help you maintain and improve your 102 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.600 mental health. And so it's really about giving anybody the 103 00:05:46.660 --> 00:05:49.399 skills and the capacity to accept the stuff in their 104 00:05:49.420 --> 00:05:51.879 head and do the things they care about in life. 105 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:56.560 So it's not about any particular illness. It's not focused 106 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.259 on illness. It's focused on where you want to go 107 00:05:59.319

--> 00:06:02.459 from here. wherever you're at. So it doesn't matter if 108 00:06:02.500 --> 00:06:06.629 somebody is working on accepting an intrusive thought, accepting voices 109 00:06:06.670 --> 00:06:10.430 in their head, accepting anxiety about getting fired at work 110 00:06:10.829 --> 00:06:14.629 or about giving a presentation about, you know, jealousy of 111 00:06:14.670 --> 00:06:18.139 their partner's friends or anything like that. So it's really about, 112 00:06:18.459 --> 00:06:23.220 you know, approaching this stuff as very fundamental practices. So 113 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:27.300 how do we have experiences we don't like? And then 114 00:06:27.339 --> 00:06:30.100 work through those and kind of purposely keep pushing into 115 00:06:30.139 --> 00:06:35.449 them like we would with physical fitness or exercise. And so, yeah, 116 00:06:35.470 --> 00:06:38.550 it's really about basically it's about giving you those fundamental 117 00:06:38.629 --> 00:06:44.990 skills so you can build your own mental fitness exercise program. Yeah. Yeah. 118 00:06:45.389 --> 00:06:48.670 No, yeah, I love it. And you definitely, as I said, 119 00:06:48.709 --> 00:06:51.829 I'm halfway through kind of the audio version because print 120 00:06:51.850 --> 00:06:52.850 version came yesterday. 121 00:06:53.149 --> 00:06:53.550 But it is. 122 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.800 Already, it's very clear you've focused on the solution, on 123 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:03.180 the positive actions, as opposed to the actual symptoms, which 124 00:07:03.259 --> 00:07:07.480 I like. Because, obviously, mental health is all about symptoms usually. 125 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:10.800 But you're 100% focused on what's going to get you 126 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:13.939 beyond those and into a value-led life. 127 00:07:15.670 --> 00:07:18.160 And I think that's really important, isn't it? Because we 128 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:21.379 can see that works in physical fitness too. If you 129 00:07:21.420 --> 00:07:23.339 go to the gym, everybody going to the gym is 130 00:07:23.379 --> 00:07:25.649 there for a different reason. If you're out of shape, 131 00:07:26.050 --> 00:07:28.250 if everyone had to talk about why they're out of shape, 132 00:07:29.410 --> 00:07:31.949 we'd end up with all of these different disorders. Like, oh, 133 00:07:31.970 --> 00:07:35.730 I have drowning disorder. And I have endurance disorder. And, oh, 134 00:07:35.910 --> 00:07:39.819 I have weakness disorder. Or a strength disorder and whatever. 135 00:07:39.939 --> 00:07:42.560 Everyone would have all these different reasons they're out of shape. 136 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.300 But we know that kind of stuff doesn't matter. The 137 00:07:45.339 --> 00:07:47.829 way you're going to get into shape. is always gonna 138 00:07:47.870 --> 00:07:51.110 be the same. It's always gonna be about pushing into 139 00:07:51.209 --> 00:07:54.730 your limits and then learning the skills to push through that. 140 00:07:56.430 --> 00:07:59.379 And on the way there, you might have unique challenges 141 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:05.639 that you have to overcome because of economics or education 142 00:08:05.899 --> 00:08:09.550 or the environments around you or other issues in society. 143 00:08:10.629 --> 00:08:13.329 And so we have to support people in overcoming those challenges. 144 00:08:14.379 --> 00:08:17.100 And the mind workout touches on that a lot. Like really, 145 00:08:17.180 --> 00:08:19.550 how do you, how do you understand the systems with 146 00:08:19.579 --> 00:08:23.529 which you interact so that you can address those challenges 147 00:08:24.370 --> 00:08:26.350 and then do the things that are actually going to 148 00:08:26.389 --> 00:08:29.509 help you, you know, live your life and be healthier. 149 00:08:30.029 --> 00:08:31.170 Yeah. 150 00:08:31.250 --> 00:08:33.990 So, yeah. So I do go into some, some stuff 151 00:08:34.049 --> 00:08:37.220 related to, you know, common compulsions, the whole, you know, 152 00:08:37.259 --> 00:08:40.480 really that first chunk of the book is about understanding 153 00:08:40.539 --> 00:08:44.669 compulsions and understanding how to cut them out. Yep. and 154 00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:48.289 I touch on some skills that I've never been able 155 00:08:48.350 --> 00:08:51.429 to really go into in videos like on my YouTube 156 00:08:51.450 --> 00:08:55.350 channel because the YouTube video just doesn't allow the space 157 00:08:56.090 --> 00:08:58.590 really to go in depth and so I mean the 158 00:08:58.629 --> 00:09:02.830 mind workouts something like 270 pages or something like that 159 00:09:03.230 --> 00:09:06.710 so there's actually the space to go in depth on 160 00:09:06.769 --> 00:09:08.610 some of these skills more than I would in a 161 00:09:08.649 --> 00:09:12.299 video because some of them especially skills like learning how 162 00:09:12.340 --> 00:09:16.669 to accept the extreme consequences of a fear. I feel 163 00:09:17.009 --> 00:09:20.409 like I can't do that justice in a five minute video. Yeah. 164 00:09:21.250 --> 00:09:22.809 And then everyone's going to watch the video and go 165 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:25.990 away thinking they're about to die and be miserable. And 166 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:28.370 so in the book, though, I can kind of because 167 00:09:28.389 --> 00:09:31.460 I find that skill is so useful. And it's something 168 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:33.740 I would work on with coaching clients. And, you know, 169 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:35.940 there's the time to work on it one week, come 170 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.049 back to it the next week. And so finally, having 171 00:09:39.090 --> 00:09:42.509 a book allows me to do that, which is exciting. 172 00:09:42.570 --> 00:09:44.789 It's good to have those skills out there in the public. 173 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:47.740 Yeah, I think that's good. And I think people that 174 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:52.299 go to YouTube are sometimes looking

for a quick fix, 175 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:55.210 especially with OCD. It's often a place, for me anyway, 176 00:09:55.289 --> 00:09:59.529 I would go historically for reassurance or to find something out. 177 00:09:59.590 --> 00:10:02.330 you know that the symptom was actually normal and experienced 178 00:10:02.370 --> 00:10:04.840 by others and what didn't mean I was a terrible 179 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:08.120 person but someone who's picked up a book is usually 180 00:10:08.169 --> 00:10:11.039 in a more logical state of mind ready to make 181 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:14.620 some changes so that's probably also the better place for 182 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:18.559 it I got I wrote a question here kind of 183 00:10:19.470 --> 00:10:23.840 More kind of, so Mark, I can't change my brain, 184 00:10:23.889 --> 00:10:29.120 it's a chemical imbalance. And I put that because it's 185 00:10:29.139 --> 00:10:36.000 the mind workout, it's about lifting weights, tophorically to get stronger, if, 186 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:39.980 so to speak, OCD is a chemical imbalance, then surely 187 00:10:40.659 --> 00:10:43.620 this isn't going to help. So it's a bit controversial, 188 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:45.519 I just wanted to get your take. 189 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.360 Yeah it's it's um so it's an idea that sticks 190 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.399 around yeah so i think one thing we know from 191 00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:55.340 a from a scientific perspective the idea that you have 192 00:10:55.700 --> 00:11:00.049 a chemical imbalance uh we know is not accurate yeah 193 00:11:01.289 --> 00:11:03.570 uh so there's that this this idea of the chemical 194 00:11:03.590 --> 00:11:07.049 imbalance is really a holdover of these uh of the 195 00:11:07.090 --> 00:11:10.649 medieval idea that you have like four humors and we 196 00:11:10.690 --> 00:11:14.159 have to balance them and like You know, if you 197 00:11:14.179 --> 00:11:16.679 have this type of personality, that means you've got like, 198 00:11:17.220 --> 00:11:20.059 you know, your phlegm or your whatever is out of 199 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:22.710 balance and so on. And then that carried over in 200 00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:27.250 the history of psychiatry into, you know, the Victorian era 201 00:11:27.649 --> 00:11:31.879 and hysteria. Yeah. So the whole idea with hysteria, we say, OK, 202 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.480 because men didn't have mental health issues. Women had mental 203 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.470 health issues. And they would say, OK, you have hysteria. 204 00:11:37.830 --> 00:11:40.549 The womb, that was also about an imbalance. But at 205 00:11:40.590 --> 00:11:43.529 the time, it was that the womb is moving around 206 00:11:43.570 --> 00:11:46.110 the body in search of semen and we have to 207 00:11:46.210 --> 00:11:50.149 balance it out. And so this idea of the chemical 208 00:11:50.190 --> 00:11:55.080 imbalance has been used to oppress people for centuries. So 209 00:11:55.340 -->

00:11:57.519 you had that in the Victoria era, and then that 210 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:00.600 fed into the medical model in the 50s and 60s 211 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:02.899 where it's, okay, all of these people have these imbalances, 212 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:05.590 and we are just going to fill them up with 213 00:12:05.620 --> 00:12:08.750 these medications, and they are going to be balanced. And 214 00:12:08.769 --> 00:12:10.970 by balanced, they meant they are not going to cause 215 00:12:11.009 --> 00:12:16.370 us problems anymore. They're going to be sedated. So that's 216 00:12:16.490 --> 00:12:18.889 one thing. So one, we know this idea of the 217 00:12:18.909 --> 00:12:22.049 chemical imbalance has quite a long history. It's often been 218 00:12:22.100 --> 00:12:26.090 a very oppressive history. We know scientifically now that it's 219 00:12:26.129 --> 00:12:29.740 just not accurate. And you can see that, one, in 220 00:12:29.779 --> 00:12:32.659 the way that a lot of these medications, they can help, 221 00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:40.059 but they consistently often don't work. But I would say 222 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:42.419 even after all that, even if we say, OK, look, 223 00:12:42.460 --> 00:12:45.789 this is a myth and it's something we have to 224 00:12:45.830 --> 00:12:48.289 move past. The thing I always point to when we 225 00:12:48.330 --> 00:12:52.919 talk about physical fitness, it's actually a great example. of 226 00:12:53.019 --> 00:12:55.519 how we can overcome something that's already in the body. 227 00:12:55.539 --> 00:12:59.259 Like if you took a person who doesn't exercise and 228 00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:03.690 we measured things like their cortisol levels, we measured all 229 00:13:03.750 --> 00:13:07.289 sorts of chemicals in their body, adrenaline, you could measure 230 00:13:07.350 --> 00:13:10.710 things like, you know, if you could measure, you know, 231 00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:13.090 a lot of neurotransmitters, you would see that they might 232 00:13:13.169 --> 00:13:16.500 all be out of whack as well, right? Blood insulin levels, 233 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.039 the works. Blood oxygen levels. When somebody is not in 234 00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:24.009 physical shape, They are, in a sense, chemically imbalanced. But 235 00:13:24.029 --> 00:13:25.879 we know that's a result of not being in shape. 236 00:13:27.139 --> 00:13:29.419 But then it creates a negative feedback loop, right? Because 237 00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:33.460 of that, that also prevents them potentially from exercising. And 238 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:39.809 so exercising becomes very difficult. Yeah. But we know if 239 00:13:39.889 --> 00:13:42.149 they stick with it and we help support that person 240 00:13:42.169 --> 00:13:46.129 in making those changes, the body starts to change. And 241 00:13:46.149 --> 00:13:48.389 so it's really about recognizing, and we know this happens 242 00:13:48.429 --> 00:13:51.620 with the brain too. It's really about

saying, okay, so 243 00:13:51.820 --> 00:13:54.279 even if I believe I have a chemical imbalance right now, 244 00:13:55.659 --> 00:13:57.559 the thing I would say to a person who believes 245 00:13:57.620 --> 00:14:00.039 it is what if that chemical balance is a result 246 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.279 of the things you're doing, not the cause of the 247 00:14:03.340 --> 00:14:08.000 things you're doing. And you can start to make changes 248 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.659 in the things you're doing. And we know your brain 249 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:16.700 will change. Yeah. And we know even if, You know, 250 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:18.779 your brain's in a situation right now where it's throwing 251 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:21.019 up a lot of intrusive thoughts and things like that, 252 00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:25.279 even if it's throwing up things and things like voices. 253 00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:29.620 We know there's a path to recovery for learning how 254 00:14:29.659 --> 00:14:33.470 to handle those things rather than trying to get rid 255 00:14:33.509 --> 00:14:36.370 of them or rather than trying to control them. And 256 00:14:36.429 --> 00:14:39.769 through that process of learning how to handle them, you 257 00:14:39.789 --> 00:14:41.830 develop the skills to do more of what you want 258 00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:45.409 to do in life. Uh, and so, yeah, so there's 259 00:14:45.429 --> 00:14:47.129 that there. So on one hand, I think it's always 260 00:14:47.149 --> 00:14:53.210 great to emphasize the chemical imbalance thing, not scientific fact, uh, 261 00:14:53.350 --> 00:14:56.009 at all. Like it's, you know, quite a, quite a, 262 00:14:56.269 --> 00:14:57.750 you know, it's a myth that's been with us for 263 00:14:57.769 --> 00:14:59.559 a very long time. So it's also, it's not about 264 00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:04.120 to disappear. Yeah. But even if you believe that, uh, you, 265 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:08.240 you know, we have so many examples throughout our lives 266 00:15:08.539 --> 00:15:12.440 of overcoming chemical imbalances in our body, uh, And we're 267 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.090 constantly doing that. Anybody who gets into shape or makes 268 00:15:15.139 --> 00:15:18.850 a change of any kind, uh, is overcoming something that's 269 00:15:18.889 --> 00:15:22.570 already in their body is overcoming habit is creating change 270 00:15:22.610 --> 00:15:25.850 in their brain. And so know that that's always possible, 271 00:15:26.029 --> 00:15:28.330 even if you want to hold onto the idea of 272 00:15:28.389 --> 00:15:30.590 the chemical imbalance. Yeah. Yeah. 273 00:15:31.129 --> 00:15:34.480 I completely agree. It can often be quite a heated 274 00:15:34.539 --> 00:15:37.039 thing when someone really wants to hold onto the idea 275 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.179 of a chemical imbalance. Um, You often see the odd 276 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.580 debate on Twitter. I just avoid it like the plague 277 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:46.899 because

I often find it not negative. But I also 278 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:49.700 find that the idea of chemical imbalance, whether it's true 279 00:15:49.779 --> 00:15:56.220 or not, believing it disempowers you. Whereas believing you can 280 00:15:56.259 --> 00:15:59.500 make a change gives you power and control over your health. 281 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.320 So that's the way I kind of look at it. 282 00:16:03.049 --> 00:16:04.870 And no i think that's good both of those things 283 00:16:04.950 --> 00:16:09.269 i avoid the chemical imbalance discussion because there's no again 284 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:11.620 it'd be like having a discussion it's like when people 285 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:14.460 uh will say i don't have the body type to 286 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.860 exercise yeah and and really what we have to do 287 00:16:17.899 --> 00:16:19.720 there is that no like there's there's ways you can 288 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:21.639 exercise we have to look at how we help you 289 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:24.580 do that yeah so there's that yeah we we know 290 00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:29.179 it's possible it's not worth getting into um but yeah 291 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:34.360 it's uh Yeah, it's just always knowing that that idea 292 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:38.440 really used to be used to disempower people with mental 293 00:16:38.460 --> 00:16:43.320 health issues. That myth has so... So it's been fascinating 294 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.870 in the history of the chemical imbalance myth that now 295 00:16:46.450 --> 00:16:49.889 it's been in many ways adopted by some mental health communities. 296 00:16:51.490 --> 00:16:55.149 And in part, I think this was the struggle against stigma. 297 00:16:55.570 --> 00:16:57.110 So one of the reasons you'd see it come up, 298 00:16:57.129 --> 00:17:00.769 people would say, oh, well, you know, it's a chemical imbalance, 299 00:17:01.350 --> 00:17:05.410 it's a real physical issue, therefore we shouldn't be stigmatized. 300 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.119 And what I always want to point out with that 301 00:17:10.180 --> 00:17:15.160 is that we shouldn't stigmatize people because it's a terrible 302 00:17:15.220 --> 00:17:19.609 thing to stigmatize people. You don't need an excuse not 303 00:17:19.650 --> 00:17:24.490 to stigmatize people. And that's something we need to do 304 00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:26.710 as a society, as a culture, to recognize mental health 305 00:17:26.769 --> 00:17:30.480 issues are real. And And we're seeing more and more 306 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.119 with the research. Mental health issues are very, very common. 307 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.019 So I think part of the idea behind the chemical imbalance, too, 308 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.730 is like, oh, I have this unique brain and it's different. 309 00:17:39.109 --> 00:17:41.569 And again, that goes back to the stigma where for 310 00:17:41.589 --> 00:17:45.289 centuries people with mental illness were these unique people who 311 00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:49.609 had problems that were unfixable. And again, that chemical imbalance 312 00:17:49.650 --> 00:17:52.279 was used to say, you know, you can't be part 313 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:55.460 of society. You are different. You are separate. And you 314 00:17:55.480 --> 00:18:00.579 have this problem that you have to manage forever. I 315 00:18:00.619 --> 00:18:04.509 think it's so important to recognize the oppressive history of 316 00:18:04.589 --> 00:18:10.769 that idea. We don't need to adopt it to fight stigma. 317 00:18:13.130 --> 00:18:17.109 We fight stigma because stigma, prejudice, discrimination of any kind 318 00:18:17.589 --> 00:18:20.029 is not a thing we want to do. You don't 319 00:18:20.390 --> 00:18:28.220 need to take that on. And say, OK, I have 320 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.720 an imbalance. So, yeah, like the thing I was like, yeah, like, 321 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:35.440 you know what? I used to see myself stabbing people 322 00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:37.609 all the time. I used to see people getting run 323 00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:40.349 over by cars. They used to spend hours obsessing. I 324 00:18:40.369 --> 00:18:43.930 would stay up all night doing compulsions. I, you know, 325 00:18:43.950 --> 00:18:46.650 I don't have an imbalance. I didn't have to change 326 00:18:46.710 --> 00:18:51.809 any chemicals to get over that. And I think it's, yeah, it's, 327 00:18:52.509 --> 00:18:55.309 you know, if somebody is using medication, like there's still 328 00:18:55.349 --> 00:18:59.579 research showing that medication can be a great support. Yeah. 329 00:18:59.690 --> 00:19:03.960 And it's not about saying no to medication. It's really 330 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:08.380 recognizing that this chemical imbalance idea is separate from that. Yeah. 331 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.900 Using medication doesn't mean you have an imbalance. Just like, 332 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.720 I mean, if somebody takes pain medication to address pain, 333 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.400 it's not because you were imbalanced in some way. Yeah, yeah. 334 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:25.029 It's not like, oh, okay, now we have fixed your imbalance. Yeah. 335 00:19:25.450 --> 00:19:29.049 So I think that's... But at the end of the day, 336 00:19:29.130 --> 00:19:31.950 like you said, just moving past this is great. You know, 337 00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:34.230 if people want to have a conversation about chemical imbalances, 338 00:19:34.269 --> 00:19:37.809 that is awesome. Yeah. We will be over here taking 339 00:19:37.829 --> 00:19:38.589 care of our mental health. 340 00:19:39.289 --> 00:19:43.529 Yeah, that's the thing. I think because I'm... absolutely for 341 00:19:45.230 --> 00:19:47.950 medication if people want to take it. But it's when 342 00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:50.059 people take it and then you're like, okay well have 343 00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:51.960 you been in therapy and what else are you doing 344 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.539

beyond therapy to recover and they're like i'm not in 345 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.589 therapy and i'm not really doing anything else but i'm 346 00:19:57.619 --> 00:20:02.549 taking this medication it's like it's tough like you need 347 00:20:02.589 --> 00:20:03.269 to do more. 348 00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:07.900 Yeah. And I think that's the thing I said, like 349 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.440 that's really on the mental health care practitioners or health 350 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.950 care practitioners. Like if if like we know from evidence, yeah, 351 00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:19.609 if you're only doing medication, like if we line up, 352 00:20:20.529 --> 00:20:25.819 you know, doing nothing, medication, medication and therapy or just therapy. 353 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:31.220 The the the thing that's almost as bad as doing 354 00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:37.210 nothing is just taking medication. Yeah. So so, yeah, if 355 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:40.589 your doctor, you know, you come in and your doctor 356 00:20:40.609 --> 00:20:43.839 is like, OK, you know, you have a mental illness, whatever. 357 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.740 Here's the medication. Get out of here. Your doctor just 358 00:20:47.819 --> 00:20:53.380 knowingly gave you a treatment that is known to be 359 00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:56.559 not as effective as the other treatment options that exist. 360 00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:59.940 That may be the only thing they have access to. 361 00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:01.799 That may be the only thing you can have access 362 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:04.000 to at that point. But yeah, it's really useful to 363 00:21:04.059 --> 00:21:07.809 know that because I see this all the time. People say, oh, 364 00:21:07.829 --> 00:21:10.069 I took this medication. I've taken so many medications and 365 00:21:10.109 --> 00:21:14.329 nothing has worked. That's normal. In fact, that like you're 366 00:21:14.349 --> 00:21:16.269 probably going to see that 50 percent of the time. 367 00:21:16.410 --> 00:21:18.950 So if you yeah, if you took a medication, it 368 00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:21.230 didn't work. Just know like that doesn't mean you have 369 00:21:21.750 --> 00:21:25.990 something that's chronic. Doesn't mean you have a special, especially 370 00:21:26.089 --> 00:21:31.319 difficult illness. your doctor should have known that that wasn't 371 00:21:31.339 --> 00:21:31.920 going to work. 372 00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:37.720 Some people's brains don't accept the medication some people work 373 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:42.859 really well I think more in like psychosis medication works 374 00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:47.549 a lot better but for things like OCD it's like 375 00:21:47.549 --> 00:21:50.789 50% of the people right and there's no real explanation 376 00:21:50.890 --> 00:21:53.750 why it works for 50% and why it doesn't for 377 00:21:53.789 --> 00:21:55.650 the other 50% as far as I'm aware. 378 00:21:56.170 --> 00:21:58.029 Yeah, well, one of the things we look at, and 379 00:21:58.049 --> 00:22:00.309 so we know with OCD of all mental illnesses, so 380 00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:03.769 one of the things we know is that often therapy, 381 00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:07.430 because you can't really control the quality of therapists or 382 00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:10.500 the effectiveness of therapists. So we know that getting therapy 383 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:13.680 and getting medication, in research, they actually end up being 384 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.880 about the same level of effectiveness in that a lot 385 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.099 of medication won't work and a lot of therapists won't 386 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:24.480 be effective. Except in one mental illness, and that's OCD. 387 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.160 We know consistently out of all of them, when they 388 00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:33.140 do the metal analysis, with OCD, you're going to do 389 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.619 better if you do therapy. And that's likely because of 390 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:39.940 the compulsions. So one of the things that happen if 391 00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:45.559 we look at, so a lot of antidepressants, whichever medications 392 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:49.529 a person's taking, often they want to take it because 393 00:22:49.609 --> 00:22:51.410 they want to reduce the anxiety, they want to get 394 00:22:51.450 --> 00:22:54.420 rid of the intrusive thoughts. But that creates a problem 395 00:22:54.460 --> 00:22:57.779 if they keep the compulsions. So think of it like 396 00:22:57.819 --> 00:23:02.150 a pain medication. So if you are experiencing a lot 397 00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:04.950 of pain, I find it useful to approach intrusive thoughts 398 00:23:05.009 --> 00:23:08.789 as pain. So if you're experiencing lots of pain, you're like, okay, 399 00:23:08.809 --> 00:23:11.529 I wanna stop that pain. And so you take the medication. 400 00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:14.750 And so that may actually be helpful for stopping the anxiety, 401 00:23:14.809 --> 00:23:17.089 stopping the intrusive thoughts. And so you now have relief 402 00:23:17.109 --> 00:23:21.089 from the pain. But that pain was a result of actions. 403 00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:24.799 you know, either in your head or physically in your life. 404 00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:29.089 And if you continue with those actions, you're actually going 405 00:23:29.109 --> 00:23:32.970 to make things worse. Because now you don't experience the pain. 406 00:23:33.890 --> 00:23:36.349 So in many ways, those intrusive thoughts, the anxiety, that 407 00:23:36.369 --> 00:23:38.619 was your brain telling you, like, something is wrong here. 408 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:43.599 Just covering up the pain doesn't change the thing that's 409 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:47.519 causing the pain. And we also have to change that. 410 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.440 And so with OCD, because you have all the compulsions, 411 00:23:51.009 --> 00:23:55.369 Even if they're mental, if the compulsions

continue, you're going 412 00:23:55.390 --> 00:23:57.859 to see the pain eventually increase to a point where 413 00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:02.660 it punches through the medication. And that's why it's so 414 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.789 important to get therapy as well. Like you're saying there, 415 00:24:05.809 --> 00:24:09.460 you have to do that other stuff. and so I 416 00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:11.500 talk about and that's really with anything I talk about 417 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:14.519 it in the mind workout is being like if you 418 00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:16.799 know if you have a lion chewing on you or 419 00:24:16.819 --> 00:24:19.980 you have a tiger or a monster that attacks you 420 00:24:20.299 --> 00:24:23.200 and it's chewing on you you can take painkillers to 421 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:27.309 get rid of the pain that is not solved the 422 00:24:27.369 --> 00:24:30.990 problem yeah and and that's the thing yeah with medication 423 00:24:31.069 --> 00:24:34.650 it can be so useful though to take medication so 424 00:24:34.690 --> 00:24:37.619 that you can solve the problem yeah To be like, okay, 425 00:24:37.630 --> 00:24:40.420 there's a lion attacking me. I'm going to take some 426 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:42.039 morphine right now that's going to take care of the pain. 427 00:24:42.339 --> 00:24:44.200 And now I'm going to get rid of the lion. 428 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.000 And that gives you the space to do it. But 429 00:24:47.019 --> 00:24:49.940 it's so important not to miss that. And again, that's 430 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.980 the thing. If you're a healthcare practitioner, if you come 431 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.099 in with a lion chewing on your leg and they're 432 00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:57.420 just like, okay, well, here, this will cover up the pain, 433 00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:01.599 they've kind of screwed you over there. Because you're going 434 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:03.519 to walk out of there and the lion will keep 435 00:25:03.579 --> 00:25:06.849 eating you until there's nothing left. And you may not 436 00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:10.170 feel anything. You may be very happy about that, but 437 00:25:10.210 --> 00:25:13.309 you may not be happy about the long-term outcome. Yeah. 438 00:25:13.730 --> 00:25:15.119 Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. 439 00:25:15.150 --> 00:25:15.349 Yeah. 440 00:25:16.049 --> 00:25:19.789 Medication should enable you to do therapy or get rid 441 00:25:19.829 --> 00:25:27.740 of that tiger. Okay, cool. Okay, we've answered that question. Okay, 442 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.480 so in the book, I can't remember which bit, but 443 00:25:30.500 --> 00:25:33.539 you say urges don't have to dictate your actions. 444 00:25:34.420 --> 00:25:34.539 Mm-hmm. 445 00:25:35.180 --> 00:25:37.099 And this is a common one with OCD, you know, 446 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.500 the feeling of the urge, the uncomfortable emotion or the thought, 447 00:25:40.900 --> 00:25:45.930 and then that dictates

the action, which is the compulsion, right? 448 00:25:46.970 --> 00:25:49.490 So when you get the urge, what can people do 449 00:25:49.549 --> 00:25:52.250 to leave that urge alone? Because that's the hardest thing, right, 450 00:25:52.329 --> 00:25:55.369 is to not react. So yeah, what advice do you 451 00:25:55.390 --> 00:25:55.829 have for that? 452 00:25:56.430 --> 00:25:59.119 I think that the most important thing with that is 453 00:25:59.299 --> 00:26:03.019 to learn how to cut out reactions to urges that 454 00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:08.200 seem normal, right? And the reason for that is your 455 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:12.700 brain is very logical. So if you spend all day, 456 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.059 I'll grab my phone here. So say like all day, 457 00:26:15.259 --> 00:26:16.900 every time I get the urge to check my phone, 458 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:19.809 I just, I pull it out and I'm swiping through it. 459 00:26:20.289 --> 00:26:21.910 And I'm like, you know, okay, well I didn't get 460 00:26:21.930 --> 00:26:25.109 a message, but maybe I'll check what's happening in the news. Like, oh, 461 00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:27.170 the UK election's on right now. I want to see 462 00:26:27.190 --> 00:26:29.329 what's happening in the polls. And so, you know, these 463 00:26:29.349 --> 00:26:31.180 are urges popping up and I just react to them. 464 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:35.160 And it doesn't seem like a big deal. But later... 465 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:39.400 Say I'm in a relationship and I get the urge 466 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:44.579 to reread the last message from my partner. Because I'm like, oh, 467 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.789 what did they say? Did it seem loving? Do they 468 00:26:47.809 --> 00:26:51.430 really care? I want to go through that and really 469 00:26:51.470 --> 00:26:54.250 try to figure out how I feel about them and 470 00:26:54.269 --> 00:26:57.809 all of that stuff. Really common thing that happens with OCD, 471 00:26:57.869 --> 00:27:03.450 relationship OCD. Your brain... So if you try to cut 472 00:27:03.490 --> 00:27:07.400 out that compulsion, your brain does not understand why it's 473 00:27:07.539 --> 00:27:10.559 okay to react to an urge about a UK election poll, 474 00:27:11.059 --> 00:27:14.420 which probably doesn't matter to you that much. But it's 475 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.200 not okay to react to an urge about the most 476 00:27:17.259 --> 00:27:23.210 important relationship in your life ever. And that's where the 477 00:27:23.250 --> 00:27:26.369 difficulty in not reacting to urges comes up is that 478 00:27:27.349 --> 00:27:30.130 we get it mixed up. So when we look at 479 00:27:30.150 --> 00:27:32.970 it from a fitness perspective, we try to lift the 480 00:27:32.970 --> 00:27:36.430 50 pound weight, but are unable to lift the 20 481 00:27:36.430 --> 00:27:40.759 pound weight. And so of course it's excruciatingly difficult to 482 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.359 lift the 50 pound weight. Yeah. So you have to 483 00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:49.660 practice accepting urges around things that don't matter. And if 484 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.180 you build up your skills there, then you can do 485 00:27:52.220 --> 00:27:55.549 it with those things that cause you a lot of anxiety. Yeah. 486 00:27:56.349 --> 00:27:57.769 But yeah, if you don't learn how to do it 487 00:27:57.809 --> 00:28:02.589 with simple things, It's so excruciatingly difficult to do it 488 00:28:02.630 --> 00:28:03.869 with those things that really matter. 489 00:28:04.529 --> 00:28:07.849 Yeah, it's so true. I remember the last episode you 490 00:28:07.869 --> 00:28:10.009 were on, I believe you said it on that, where 491 00:28:10.049 --> 00:28:13.890 you said about you only check your social media if 492 00:28:13.950 --> 00:28:17.369 you're posting something or if you're adding value, not if 493 00:28:17.809 --> 00:28:20.650 you're just scrolling through it or seeing if anyone's liked 494 00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:25.019 a picture. And I try and apply that. And some 495 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:28.970 days it works and other days I fail miserably. But 496 00:28:29.569 --> 00:28:32.289 recently I've been noticing when I've got very bad with 497 00:28:32.329 --> 00:28:34.829 Facebook to the point where I don't even know I'm 498 00:28:34.910 --> 00:28:38.880 on it. I just suddenly Facebook's appeared because I've typed F-A, enter, 499 00:28:38.910 --> 00:28:39.880 and Facebook's appeared. 500 00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:41.220 It's amazing. 501 00:28:41.259 --> 00:28:43.000 And then I'm like, how did I even get here? 502 00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:47.640 And then when I start to do F-A sometimes, I'm like, oh, 503 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:49.059 I don't even want to go on Facebook. Why am 504 00:28:49.099 --> 00:28:51.930 I doing this? Because it's just happened. And I try 505 00:28:51.990 --> 00:28:54.470 to not press enter and pause, but the urge becomes 506 00:28:54.529 --> 00:28:56.650 so strong to go to Facebook that I do it. 507 00:28:57.109 --> 00:28:58.670 And then 10 minutes later, I'm like, why am I 508 00:28:58.710 --> 00:29:02.119 even on here? It's all a load of rubbish. Usually 509 00:29:02.130 --> 00:29:06.400 about the UK election at the minute. But like, the 510 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.500 urge is so strong. And it's kind of like, if 511 00:29:08.619 --> 00:29:11.160 I can't tame that, how am I ever going to 512 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.740 tame my brain, as you say, with the meatiest stuff 513 00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:14.460 that's scarier? 514 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:18.579 Absolutely. And I think that's why it's so important to recognize. 515 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.490 Because often we don't, if we're talking about OCD in particular, 516 00:29:22.529 --> 00:29:26.150 we'll talk about the obsession that bothers us the most. Yeah. 517 00:29:26.630 --> 00:29:28.880 And then we identify with those things. Like we'll say, oh, 518 00:29:28.910 --> 00:29:32.740 I have ROCD or I have

whatever, harm OCD or 519 00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:36.210 whatever it may be. And it's, yeah, just if you're 520 00:29:36.230 --> 00:29:39.549 struggling with those, just recognizing that that label you might 521 00:29:39.569 --> 00:29:42.539 have put on it. That's just Covering the thing that 522 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:45.220 bothers you the most and yeah, you have to look 523 00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:47.400 for all the other ways. You're doing the same thing 524 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:53.160 and It's so I talked in the book. There's an 525 00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.200 exercise for mapping out in particular the example I use 526 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.740 is online compulsions and Because you also start to see 527 00:29:59.849 --> 00:30:04.210 too how often a compulsion begins much earlier than we think. 528 00:30:06.069 --> 00:30:09.410 And that it's very difficult in the moment to not 529 00:30:09.509 --> 00:30:12.980 engage in the compulsion. So particularly with online compulsions, sometimes 530 00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:15.859 the compulsion is actually beginning the moment we turn on 531 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:20.630 the computer. Or the moment we convince ourselves, oh, I've 532 00:30:20.650 --> 00:30:22.069 got to eat some food and I'm going to do 533 00:30:22.089 --> 00:30:24.450 this other important thing later. So first I've just got 534 00:30:24.470 --> 00:30:26.230 to sit down. I'm going to sit down at the 535 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:29.779 computer and see what's going on first. That's actually the 536 00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:33.779 moment it begins. Because once we're on there, then it's 537 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.740 really difficult. The brain is just automatically going to the 538 00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:40.319 thing that's going to stimulate it the most. And so 539 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:44.160 also that's really important. Starting to take this big picture 540 00:30:44.619 --> 00:30:48.569 systems level perspective of a compulsion. and see like where 541 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:51.109 does it really begin because too you might find it 542 00:30:51.150 --> 00:30:55.309 much easier to make a change earlier up the path 543 00:30:55.369 --> 00:30:57.710 in that system like it might be easier to not 544 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:00.420 sit down at the computer once you sit down then 545 00:31:00.460 --> 00:31:02.480 it's really difficult not to like. 546 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:06.039 Go on facebook yeah yeah is that that in your 547 00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:08.960 book that's the line uh the drawing the line right 548 00:31:09.019 --> 00:31:11.920 and you've got like there's the guy at his computer 549 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:14.279 at 2 a.m and then you do all this stuff 550 00:31:14.299 --> 00:31:16.420 before is that the same exercise. 551 00:31:16.470 --> 00:31:17.450 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 552 00:31:18.029 --> 00:31:20.769 Anyone on YouTube is sharing it. 553 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.400 Yeah, I guess on YouTube you can see it. But 554 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:28.099 for the people on the radio, this is, yeah, so 555 00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:30.579 I call it the compulsion journey. It's an exercise in 556 00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:35.329 the coping chapter because we often end up falling into 557 00:31:35.369 --> 00:31:39.309 these types of compulsions when we're coping. And it's, yeah, 558 00:31:39.329 --> 00:31:43.990 it's really about mapping out your life backwards from the compulsion. 559 00:31:44.049 --> 00:31:46.470 So the example I use there is a guy, he's 560 00:31:46.509 --> 00:31:50.609 up at 2 a.m. watching kitten videos, as I'm sure 561 00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:55.309 many men do at 2 a.m. when they're online. And 562 00:31:56.170 --> 00:32:00.309 it's really about seeing where that compulsion started. And for 563 00:32:00.430 --> 00:32:02.650 that person, it really started in the middle of the day. 564 00:32:02.910 --> 00:32:04.690 Like it was something that, you know, in a sense 565 00:32:04.890 --> 00:32:08.690 started at work. And we have to start making changes 566 00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:10.910 in those other areas of our lives or else the 567 00:32:10.950 --> 00:32:14.430 compulsions are just the natural outcome. And that's the other 568 00:32:14.450 --> 00:32:17.150 thing I think with urges is just starting to recognize 569 00:32:17.190 --> 00:32:19.630 how in many ways they're, like I was saying earlier, 570 00:32:19.650 --> 00:32:24.460 they're like pain. We have to look at what's causing 571 00:32:24.500 --> 00:32:28.059 the pain and make changes there because once you're dealing 572 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.779 with the pain or the urge or the intrusive thought, 573 00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:33.980 that's difficult. So if you can learn how to make 574 00:32:34.059 --> 00:32:36.599 changes with the things that cause the pain and it 575 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:37.759 becomes so much easier. 576 00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:41.720 Yeah, no, I completely agree. Something I've noticed recently is 577 00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.000 I was aware of it before. So when anxiety was 578 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:47.049 really bad for me, it would hit me as soon 579 00:32:47.069 --> 00:32:50.769 as I woke up, like a wave. And I learned 580 00:32:50.809 --> 00:32:53.009 to deal with the anxiety first thing in the morning. 581 00:32:53.049 --> 00:32:55.269 I realized I had a five-minute window to try and 582 00:32:55.690 --> 00:32:57.650 get on top of my brain. Otherwise, it was going 583 00:32:57.670 --> 00:32:59.380 to get on top of me and ruin my day. 584 00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:03.339 So I started to put in strategies to deal with it. Uh, 585 00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:06.069 and now I've noticed more recently, anxiety is not really 586 00:33:06.089 --> 00:33:10.930 an issue for me. Thank, thankfully. Um, uh, as I say, 587 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:14.349 but also I worked out, so I guess it's also 588 00:33:14.650 --> 00:33:19.069 not thankfully, but, um, it's like, yeah. How do I 589

00:33:19.109 --> 00:33:23.519 say about sounding egotistical? Um, But yeah, so recently I 590 00:33:23.559 --> 00:33:27.440 wrote on the email list, I wrote about automatic negative thoughts, 591 00:33:27.579 --> 00:33:31.440 which they talk about in CBT. And it's similar to 592 00:33:31.460 --> 00:33:34.829 intrusive thoughts, except for it's not repulsive, it's just negative. 593 00:33:35.809 --> 00:33:38.109 And so as soon as I wake up some mornings, 594 00:33:38.170 --> 00:33:40.430 I'll start to get flooded with kind of what's the point? 595 00:33:40.450 --> 00:33:42.230 I'm too tired. I don't want to get out of bed. 596 00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:44.849 And if I buy into that, my mind runs off 597 00:33:44.869 --> 00:33:47.119 of itself. And then I'll ruin my morning and probably 598 00:33:47.150 --> 00:33:49.160 my day. And I'm not going to be productive. I'm 599 00:33:49.180 --> 00:33:50.420 not going to be happy. I'm going to be in 600 00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:53.609 a funk. So what I've started to do is put 601 00:33:54.369 --> 00:33:56.559 in kind of routines to try and deal with that 602 00:33:56.579 --> 00:33:58.680 as soon as I wake. So one of them is 603 00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:02.200 just kind of going over the top optimistic and positive 604 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:04.720 and being like, you know, life's a gift. It's great. 605 00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:06.619 I can't wait to get started. This is one thing 606 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:08.460 I really want to do today. And to the point 607 00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:11.630 where my mind just shuts up, it realizes it almost 608 00:34:11.670 --> 00:34:16.670 changes it. So for me, that works. So I agree. Yeah, 609 00:34:16.710 --> 00:34:18.889 for me, it starts from the moment I wake up. 610 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:21.199 but sometimes it could be other things. 611 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:26.119 I think that's a really useful insight that I've noticed 612 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:30.000 over the years too, that the morning is where everything starts. 613 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.059 And if somebody were to ask me now what is 614 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.659 my mental health practice, I would just say that it's 615 00:34:37.699 --> 00:34:44.739 making breakfast. That that morning is so... If you start 616 00:34:44.780 --> 00:34:47.800 to take care of your mornings, you have to make 617 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.050 all these changes. throughout your life. Uh, and so, yeah, 618 00:34:52.090 --> 00:34:54.369 I've put a lot of work into mornings. Like you're saying, 619 00:34:54.389 --> 00:34:56.250 like one of the things I find really important is 620 00:34:56.309 --> 00:35:00.849 to know what's for breakfast, even have breakfast already prepared. Yeah. 621 00:35:01.090 --> 00:35:02.889 That it's so useful because when you wake up, your 622 00:35:02.909 --> 00:35:04.460 brain is going to want to do all this stuff, 623 00:35:04.820 --> 00:35:07.340 but you have this thing to go and do that 624 00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:09.579 supports you. Like, Oh, I already have this healthy meal 625 00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:11.519 that I'm going to go and eat and I know 626 00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:15.400 it's there. I'm going straight to it. And yeah, it 627 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.139 really does give you that chance to, uh, uh, you know, 628 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:21.849 take action and your brain is just kind of left there, 629 00:35:21.869 --> 00:35:25.190 you know, holding all these uncertainties it wanted to give you. 630 00:35:25.469 --> 00:35:27.090 And you're able to say, Oh, I don't have time 631 00:35:27.110 --> 00:35:29.789 for that right now. Cause I'm eating. Yeah. Yeah. Or 632 00:35:29.849 --> 00:35:32.070 whatever it may be. Yeah. Some people go for a 633 00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:36.199 run first thing. Some, but yeah, knowing, you know, knowing 634 00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:37.940 what the plan is to get you out of bed 635 00:35:38.739 --> 00:35:43.860 and actually spending time today on tomorrow's morning. Yeah. And 636 00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:45.800 starting to learn how to do that. Yeah. And it just, 637 00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:48.760 it creates this positive feedback loop, which I think is, uh, 638 00:35:49.219 --> 00:35:53.139 It's so useful and it seems so simple. But consistently, 639 00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:59.210 when I talk to people in recovery, they'll talk about mornings. 640 00:35:59.250 --> 00:36:01.309 I think it's a natural thing you come to eventually 641 00:36:01.349 --> 00:36:07.079 to recognize that the morning is so important. And even if, 642 00:36:07.389 --> 00:36:09.110 I'd say to anybody out there, even if you struggle 643 00:36:09.179 --> 00:36:13.960 with sleep, know that that starts in the morning. And 644 00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:15.840 then you see the payoff of that at the end 645 00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:19.179 of the day. And so if you're struggling with sleep, 646 00:36:19.619 --> 00:36:21.880 often when people ask about that, the thing to focus 647 00:36:21.940 --> 00:36:23.590 on is not what's happening at the end of the day. 648 00:36:23.750 --> 00:36:25.449 It's to start to make changes in the morning. 649 00:36:26.929 --> 00:36:31.929 Yeah, no, that's really good advice. And there's this motivational quote, 650 00:36:31.949 --> 00:36:33.380 I can't remember who did it, but it was either 651 00:36:33.409 --> 00:36:37.360 you run your day or your day runs you. For me, 652 00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:39.840 that's 100% true. If I don't get on top of it, 653 00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:44.090 I'm done. The days are ruined. And you gave me 654 00:36:44.110 --> 00:36:46.590 a perfect segue, actually, for a later question. So we'll 655 00:36:46.610 --> 00:36:49.630 go on to that now, which is about prepping your 656 00:36:49.670 --> 00:36:51.829 breakfast or at least knowing what you want for breakfast 657 00:36:51.869 --> 00:36:54.920 the night before. So you're setting yourself up for success. 658 00:36:55.400 -->

00:36:57.980 You won't have sort of decision fatigue in the morning. 659 00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:03.320 And this is from the chapter, Motivation is a Unicorn Fart. 660 00:37:05.780 --> 00:37:09.789 So A, you can explain that, but also why we 661 00:37:09.829 --> 00:37:13.030 shouldn't rely on motivation and how we can live the 662 00:37:13.070 --> 00:37:17.409 life we want regardless of whether motivation is present or not. Yeah. 663 00:37:17.570 --> 00:37:21.269 The, uh, so motivation is a unicorn fart. It's, uh, 664 00:37:21.409 --> 00:37:23.590 it's beautiful, but it's made up. It's not real. Uh, 665 00:37:24.690 --> 00:37:26.610 but you can chase it. I'm sure like if you 666 00:37:26.650 --> 00:37:30.409 find it, it will smell amazing. It's full of sparkles 667 00:37:30.469 --> 00:37:34.650 and rainbows. The, uh, the thing is actually, it kind 668 00:37:34.690 --> 00:37:36.829 of leads on from the quote when you were talking 669 00:37:36.849 --> 00:37:40.010 about there, like, uh, really about reacting to your day. 670 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.659 either you're going to lead it or it's going to 671 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:46.750 run you, is the same reason when it comes to motivation. 672 00:37:47.130 --> 00:37:48.889 It's the same reason we do all of this stuff 673 00:37:49.250 --> 00:37:51.909 so that we're not always reacting to uncertainty and anxiety. 674 00:37:53.590 --> 00:37:57.070 And that reacting to motivation is no different. That at 675 00:37:57.090 --> 00:37:59.949 a really fundamental level, all of these practices are about 676 00:38:00.340 --> 00:38:05.500 you being empowered to live your life and not have 677 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:09.429 your life run by the weather in your head. And 678 00:38:09.449 --> 00:38:12.570 that there's really no difference between running your life based 679 00:38:12.909 --> 00:38:17.909 on motivation and running your life based on anxiety. Because 680 00:38:18.670 --> 00:38:21.820 your life is now run by just a random emotion 681 00:38:22.030 --> 00:38:27.340 that your head threw up. And that's why it's so 682 00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:30.340 useful to learn how to do things based on your values. 683 00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:33.300 So be able to wake up in the morning, say, okay, 684 00:38:33.559 --> 00:38:36.880 whatever's happening in your head. You could feel awesome. You 685 00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:41.469 could feel horrible. You could be having disgusting intrusive thoughts. 686 00:38:41.510 --> 00:38:46.829 You could be having the most imaginably negative, automatic negative thoughts. 687 00:38:48.750 --> 00:38:50.469 And be able to say, okay, I'm having all of 688 00:38:50.510 --> 00:38:54.110 this stuff. Whichever it is, is fine. Here's the thing 689 00:38:54.150 --> 00:38:56.590 that I'm going to do that I know helps me 690 00:38:56.630 --> 00:39:02.369 be happy and healthy over the long term. One of 691 00:39:02.409 --> 00:39:07.070 the biggest problems with liking motivation and only acting when 692 00:39:07.090 --> 00:39:09.699 we're motivated is is that it very naturally means that 693 00:39:09.739 --> 00:39:13.579 when we don't feel motivated, we can't do things. And 694 00:39:13.619 --> 00:39:16.559 your brain will use that against you. In the same 695 00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:20.210 way it uses anxiety. It's using anxiety to get you 696 00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:24.010 to engage in a compulsion so you feel good. it's 697 00:39:24.030 --> 00:39:27.340 you find certainty and then yeah your brain is like 698 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.260 yeah we feel certain everything's great then you're gonna do 699 00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:32.199 stuff and then your brain realize oh like you really 700 00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:36.699 liked feeling certain i will give you another uncertainty and 701 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:40.340 this time i'll make sure it's even more distressing i'll 702 00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:44.610 make sure it's even more complex so that when you 703 00:39:44.739 --> 00:39:47.329 solve it you're gonna feel even better right it's that 704 00:39:47.409 --> 00:39:52.530 addictive loop again yeah You're chasing certainty. That's exactly the 705 00:39:52.570 --> 00:39:56.130 same when people are chasing motivation. You're guaranteeing your brain 706 00:39:56.150 --> 00:39:58.989 will make you feel unmotivated. Your brain is going to 707 00:39:59.010 --> 00:40:01.090 make you feel unmotivated. So you have to do all 708 00:40:01.110 --> 00:40:04.489 of this stuff to feel motivated. And you may feel 709 00:40:04.530 --> 00:40:07.440 motivated eventually. But that just means next time you'll have 710 00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:10.340 to do even more stuff and even more stuff. And 711 00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.719 then eventually you're left with nothing but the withdrawal. You're 712 00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:17.019 never motivated. You're always chasing this idea. Oh, if only 713 00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:19.480 I could do this thing. then I would be motivated. 714 00:40:19.780 --> 00:40:22.460 Or if only I had that, then I could do 715 00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:26.280 all this other stuff. And so, yeah, ultimately chasing motivation 716 00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:31.369 is about creating barriers in your life. And when you 717 00:40:31.489 --> 00:40:36.789 don't need motivation, then you're completely free to do anything 718 00:40:36.809 --> 00:40:38.409 you want. Yeah. 719 00:40:39.829 --> 00:40:41.889 Yeah, no, I completely agree. It was a chapter that 720 00:40:41.909 --> 00:40:43.670 hit me because I think I spent most of my 721 00:40:44.090 --> 00:40:47.679 20s addicted to motivation and going out of my way 722 00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:51.769 to seek it you know conferences I mean I've got 723 00:40:51.789 --> 00:40:54.860 like 200 personal development books here which I don't regret 724 00:40:54.909 --> 00:40:57.639 reading them but when I wasn't reading them for values 725 00:40:57.699 --> 00:41:01.000 I was reading them for like motivation and that's

completely 726 00:41:01.059 --> 00:41:04.519 different but yeah no it was a good chapter for 727 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:08.980 me personally okay so you've put you talk about goals 728 00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:12.960 but you talk about goals for rocks and goals for 729 00:41:13.019 --> 00:41:17.530 people and why did you make that analogy and what 730 00:41:17.550 --> 00:41:18.329 do you mean by that. 731 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:24.639 Yeah, because usually when we're approaching mental health issues, and 732 00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:27.960 it's not just life in general, we have goals that 733 00:41:28.059 --> 00:41:32.360 only rocks can do. And by that, I mean like 734 00:41:32.389 --> 00:41:36.170 we're trying to feel things less, right? Like no rock 735 00:41:36.429 --> 00:41:40.849 ever feels anxiety. They're never going to be depressed. They're 736 00:41:40.869 --> 00:41:44.340 never going to be ashamed or embarrassed or anything like that. 737 00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:47.989 And yet those are often our goals, right? I want 738 00:41:48.010 --> 00:41:50.230 to get rid of this feeling. I don't want to 739 00:41:50.269 --> 00:41:52.429 be a failure. I don't want people to judge me. 740 00:41:52.730 --> 00:41:55.010 I don't want to be embarrassed. I want everything to 741 00:41:55.050 --> 00:41:58.969 be okay. And so much of starting to take care 742 00:41:59.010 --> 00:42:01.429 of your mental health is starting to have goals that 743 00:42:01.469 --> 00:42:07.409 are human. And human goals are about creating and building. 744 00:42:08.170 --> 00:42:10.630 And that's something you can do. Any person can create 745 00:42:10.769 --> 00:42:14.550 and build. You're going to find it so much more 746 00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:17.869 effective to when you pursue goals that are about adding 747 00:42:17.929 --> 00:42:21.250 things to your life, so much of the goals we 748 00:42:21.289 --> 00:42:23.010 come up with when we struggle with mental health are 749 00:42:23.030 --> 00:42:26.849 about trying to subtract things from life, subtract things from 750 00:42:26.889 --> 00:42:31.179 the future. And that inevitably puts us in a situation 751 00:42:31.219 --> 00:42:33.920 again where we're just reacting to fear. So we're trying 752 00:42:33.940 --> 00:42:35.360 to get rid of things in the future. I hope 753 00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:37.840 this bad thing doesn't happen. But you've now put that 754 00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:41.320 bad thing in charge of your life. And so setting 755 00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:44.579 a goal that's about, I want to create this good thing. 756 00:42:46.130 --> 00:42:49.449 And focusing on that and measuring that in your life 757 00:42:49.670 --> 00:42:55.900 is going to be so much more phenomenally effective. I mean, 758 00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:58.039 and again, physical fitness is a great example of that. 759 00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:02.920 Being able to track the amount of time you invest 760 00:43:03.059 --> 00:43:06.619 in working out and just measuring that, that leads to 761 00:43:06.659 --> 00:43:10.530 the outcomes you're looking for. But if you go and 762 00:43:10.670 --> 00:43:13.469 exercise because you think, oh, I don't want people to 763 00:43:13.510 --> 00:43:16.329 judge me or I want people to think something about me, 764 00:43:17.289 --> 00:43:21.170 it inevitably just becomes this never-ending loop of worrying and 765 00:43:21.230 --> 00:43:23.679 judging and reacting. And then if you don't get the 766 00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:27.300 result you're looking for, you stop doing the healthy activity. Yeah. 767 00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:30.340 And so, so important. And so even with the book, 768 00:43:30.500 --> 00:43:32.019 and so I talk about that at the start of 769 00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:35.519 that chapter, even if you're sitting down with the mind 770 00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:41.780 workout routine, to escape anxiety or something like that, that 771 00:43:41.900 --> 00:43:47.760 is going to be very disappointing. Because anxiety is part 772 00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:51.360 of life. This book will help you experience more anxiety. 773 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:56.159 But if your goal is to experience less anxiety, experience 774 00:43:56.199 --> 00:44:00.159 less feelings of whatever feelings you dislike, experience fewer thoughts, 775 00:44:00.820 --> 00:44:03.769 then you're trying to be like a rock. And because 776 00:44:03.809 --> 00:44:08.559 you're human, that'll fail miserably. Yeah. 777 00:44:09.059 --> 00:44:11.199 Yeah, no, I completely agree. You talk about that with 778 00:44:11.300 --> 00:44:13.980 meditation as well, right? That's right. You go in trying 779 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.059 to get something out of it. 780 00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:19.280 You often won't. Yeah, it's so unfortunate. Yeah, there's so 781 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.010 many meditation books have rocks on them. Yeah. As though 782 00:44:22.070 --> 00:44:26.210 like you're going to become this smooth rock. And that's 783 00:44:26.269 --> 00:44:29.210 totally not what meditation is about. With meditation, you're learning 784 00:44:29.329 --> 00:44:32.380 how to have all these feelings. How to actually make 785 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:36.750 space for all of these feelings. That so much of 786 00:44:36.809 --> 00:44:40.070 any struggle with mental health comes from trying to avoid experiences. 787 00:44:41.250 --> 00:44:44.280 And we put those experiences in charge of our lives. 788 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:46.860 And so, yeah, if you're sitting down to meditation, right 789 00:44:46.900 --> 00:44:50.480 now meditation and mindfulness are very popular. It's so important 790 00:44:50.539 --> 00:44:54.519 to approach them just from the perspective of getting good 791 00:44:54.659 --> 00:44:58.929 at them. If you hope they're going to remove something 792 00:44:58.969 --> 00:45:02.650 from your life, it just becomes another compulsion. It won't work. 793 00:45:03.389 --> 00:45:06.849 It'll make you

more anxious. And then you'll ditch them. 794 00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:09.030 They can be really useful skills. But of course, when 795 00:45:09.050 --> 00:45:11.429 they don't work, you'll be like, oh, meditation didn't work. 796 00:45:13.050 --> 00:45:14.769 But it was never going to work for the thing 797 00:45:14.809 --> 00:45:16.030 you were trying to use it for. Yeah. 798 00:45:17.050 --> 00:45:21.159 Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, cool. So you talk 799 00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:26.000 about awareness bandwidth. Um, so if you could explain what 800 00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:29.300 that is and, um, how to take control of it 801 00:45:29.780 --> 00:45:31.019 or direct it, I guess. 802 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:38.820 I think the, the awareness bandwidth is one of those 803 00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:41.260 things that actually meditation is useful for learning how to 804 00:45:41.300 --> 00:45:43.880 work with. And I think first of all, a concept 805 00:45:43.900 --> 00:45:47.239 that I present in the book is that really we 806 00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:53.300 have seven senses. So we have touch and we have smell. 807 00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:57.219 We have taste, we have sight, we have sound, we 808 00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:00.769 can hear things. And on top of that, we can 809 00:46:00.809 --> 00:46:05.909 also sense our thoughts and our feelings. And that we 810 00:46:06.369 --> 00:46:10.090 have the ability to shift our awareness between all of 811 00:46:10.150 --> 00:46:14.309 these things. And you see that all the time when 812 00:46:14.409 --> 00:46:16.510 you're doing something like reading a book and you don't 813 00:46:16.590 --> 00:46:19.690 hear somebody talking to you because you're very focused on 814 00:46:19.730 --> 00:46:23.420 what you're seeing. and probably your thoughts. That's where your 815 00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:30.139 awareness bandwidth is totally allocated at that moment. When we 816 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:35.960 struggle with something like OCD, we end up practicing frequently 817 00:46:35.980 --> 00:46:39.360 giving all of our awareness bandwidth just to thoughts and feelings. 818 00:46:41.019 --> 00:46:43.719 We're spending all of our time thinking about things, ruminating 819 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:47.659 about things, and we only interpret our other senses through 820 00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:51.789 our thoughts and feelings. Because they eat up all of that. 821 00:46:52.349 --> 00:46:54.710 And because of that, we lose the ability to really 822 00:46:54.789 --> 00:46:57.429 start to be aware of other things. It becomes very 823 00:46:57.469 --> 00:47:01.800 difficult to concentrate. We struggle with focusing. We're constantly reacting 824 00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:05.940 to urges. And that's what I propose in the book 825 00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:08.880 is that that's really a practice. We're so good at 826 00:47:08.980 --> 00:47:11.820 practicing giving up our awareness to our thoughts and feelings. 827 00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:14.940 We

lose the ability to give it to other senses. 828 00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:18.840 So it's useful to recognize that you have this awareness bandwidth. 829 00:47:19.989 --> 00:47:23.150 And then it's useful to start to practice giving up 830 00:47:23.230 --> 00:47:26.710 more space to your other senses. This is particularly if 831 00:47:26.730 --> 00:47:32.010 you struggle a lot with ruminating and intrusive thoughts, being 832 00:47:32.050 --> 00:47:34.809 able to give more space to what you see or 833 00:47:34.849 --> 00:47:37.489 what you hear or what you touch is going to 834 00:47:37.530 --> 00:47:40.260 be a really useful practice because you don't have to 835 00:47:40.300 --> 00:47:43.800 get rid of that stuff. But you also don't have 836 00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:48.690 to pay attention to it. In the same way, you know, 837 00:47:48.730 --> 00:47:51.110 you're probably not paying attention to what your feet are 838 00:47:51.130 --> 00:47:55.969 in contact with right now. That feeling of touch was there. 839 00:47:56.170 --> 00:47:58.739 Your feet were in contact with stuff. You weren't paying 840 00:47:58.780 --> 00:48:02.400 attention to it. But you can right now just say, okay, 841 00:48:02.420 --> 00:48:04.239 I'm going to give my awareness up to what my 842 00:48:04.340 --> 00:48:07.300 feet are in contact with. And you can be aware 843 00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:09.880 of that and be very aware of that physical sensation 844 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:12.590 of touch. When you do that, you're probably less aware 845 00:48:12.610 --> 00:48:17.170 of your other senses. So meditation is a great skill 846 00:48:17.190 --> 00:48:19.829 to to work on to learn how to move your 847 00:48:19.849 --> 00:48:23.630 awareness around. And so that's, I'd say, one of the 848 00:48:23.670 --> 00:48:27.769 benefits of meditation is that developing that skill to manage 849 00:48:27.809 --> 00:48:32.010 your awareness bandwidth then enables you in a situation where 850 00:48:32.170 --> 00:48:34.570 you're really struggling with intrusive thoughts to be like, oh, okay, 851 00:48:35.030 --> 00:48:38.380 right now I'm giving all of my attention to my thoughts. Actually, 852 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:40.199 I want to give my attention to this person I'm 853 00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:44.139 talking to. So I'm going to listen to them instead 854 00:48:44.179 --> 00:48:47.449 of thinking about what I look like or what they 855 00:48:47.469 --> 00:48:50.710 think about me right now. And that's going to start 856 00:48:50.730 --> 00:48:52.789 to enable you to do that and then hold it there. 857 00:48:54.349 --> 00:48:57.670 And so meditation and mindfulness are really about building up 858 00:48:57.710 --> 00:49:01.010 the strength and endurance to do that. Very much like 859 00:49:01.050 --> 00:49:05.360 a muscle. It's giving you that ability to move around 860 00:49:05.380 --> 00:49:06.000 in your mind. 861 00:49:07.099 --> 00:49:11.400 Yeah, absolutely. That's really good advice.

I've only just got 862 00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:14.420 back onto meditation personally. I went off it for about 863 00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:16.739 two months. And I did notice a difference but I 864 00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:21.329 wasn't doing it consistently. But yeah, I put too much 865 00:49:21.389 --> 00:49:23.829 pressure on myself. So I was like, I need to 866 00:49:23.869 --> 00:49:26.650 do it 20 minutes a day. And I was like, well, actually, 867 00:49:26.670 --> 00:49:28.929 I don't. In fact, if all I can manage is five, 868 00:49:28.969 --> 00:49:31.909 then that's fine. Or if a minute, then a minute. 869 00:49:31.989 --> 00:49:35.679 But the brain will find a way not to do something, right? 870 00:49:36.500 --> 00:49:38.139 Always. The brain's amazing, that one. 871 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:38.559 Yeah. 872 00:49:40.099 --> 00:49:43.539 Okay, so you talk about the puppy mind, or the 873 00:49:43.579 --> 00:49:45.519 mind's like a puppy. It'd be good if you could 874 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:46.320 explain that one. 875 00:49:47.860 --> 00:49:52.289 This is something I always like to think about when 876 00:49:52.329 --> 00:49:57.010 meditating as well, but just in general. I find it 877 00:49:57.030 --> 00:49:58.829 so useful to see my brain is this kind of 878 00:49:59.070 --> 00:50:03.650 little puppy that I have to take around places. It's 879 00:50:03.829 --> 00:50:06.360 always going to be running around trying to get into things. 880 00:50:07.110 --> 00:50:09.050 It's going to be running into the past to dig 881 00:50:09.150 --> 00:50:11.829 up dead memories, like dead carcasses that I don't want 882 00:50:11.849 --> 00:50:14.590 to look at. Or it's going to be barking at 883 00:50:14.670 --> 00:50:20.639 things that aren't actually dangerous or relevant. And a big 884 00:50:20.739 --> 00:50:23.300 part of our mental health practice is learning how to 885 00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:27.840 keep the puppy with you. And learning how to keep 886 00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:30.300 it walking with you, doing the things you're doing. So 887 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.840 I talk a lot about that in the book. It's 888 00:50:33.019 --> 00:50:35.300 about being able to keep your mind with you. Because 889 00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:37.829 if you are constantly going off to think about things 890 00:50:37.869 --> 00:50:40.510 in the past or ruminate on catastrophes in the future, 891 00:50:40.829 --> 00:50:44.510 it's just natural you're going to be anxious. And it's 892 00:50:44.630 --> 00:50:48.449 useful to recognize that's an action. You're choosing to go 893 00:50:48.489 --> 00:50:52.260 and think about those things. Your brain is naturally going 894 00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:54.800 to come up with uncertainties and bad things that could 895 00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:56.719 happen because that's what your brain does. It's trying to 896 00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:59.639 protect you. It was your choice to go and think 897 00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:03.239 about that stuff. And so it's really starting to recognize, like, 898 00:51:03.460 --> 00:51:07.199 do you want your puppy to run around freely? Because 899 00:51:07.219 --> 00:51:08.809 then it's going to dig up crap that you don't 900 00:51:08.829 --> 00:51:09.369 want to look at. 901 00:51:09.650 --> 00:51:09.809 Yeah. 902 00:51:10.730 --> 00:51:12.630 Or do you want it to stay with you and 903 00:51:12.710 --> 00:51:14.269 do the things that you want to do that you 904 00:51:14.309 --> 00:51:17.599 actually care about in life? And but that's a practice. 905 00:51:17.860 --> 00:51:20.119 So I always like to think of my brain as 906 00:51:20.139 --> 00:51:23.039 a puppy that I have to train. So everything I'm doing, 907 00:51:23.059 --> 00:51:25.800 I'm training it. So to go back to mornings, if 908 00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:27.820 we wake up the first thing in the morning and 909 00:51:27.860 --> 00:51:29.519 we pull out our phones and we're just sitting there 910 00:51:29.579 --> 00:51:33.559 like flipping through things, you're imagine your puppy is sitting 911 00:51:33.579 --> 00:51:37.619 there with you. You're training it to do that the 912 00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:41.219 rest of the day. And so we can't be upset 913 00:51:41.260 --> 00:51:43.780 later when the puppy, the puppy brain just wants to 914 00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:46.010 keep flipping through things and we can't concentrate at work. 915 00:51:47.150 --> 00:51:49.409 or we can't focus on something we really care about. 916 00:51:50.469 --> 00:51:53.030 You know, that's what we trained it to do. And 917 00:51:53.090 --> 00:51:54.849 so it does it. And so yeah, just being aware 918 00:51:54.869 --> 00:51:57.769 of that. Your puppy loves you, it is watching you, 919 00:51:58.670 --> 00:52:00.449 and it will do the things you train it to do. 920 00:52:01.670 --> 00:52:05.449 Yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it. Yeah, 921 00:52:05.469 --> 00:52:10.699 I like that. You know, because the book is partly 922 00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:13.679 based on acceptance and commitment therapy, as well as some 923 00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:17.960 ERP in there. And values are obviously a big part 924 00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:21.360 of ACT. So I guess, you know, again, I've put 925 00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:24.199 this as if it's a user question is, Mark, how 926 00:52:24.219 --> 00:52:26.699 can values help me? How is it going to help 927 00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:28.280 me with a mental disorder? 928 00:52:30.849 --> 00:52:33.610 What's really neat about the values and even how I 929 00:52:33.650 --> 00:52:36.929 was introduced to acceptance and commitment therapy. So I did 930 00:52:36.969 --> 00:52:40.429 not know about acceptance and commitment therapy until well after 931 00:52:40.449 --> 00:52:44.429 I was in recovery and things were going great. But 932 00:52:44.449 --> 00:52:48.469 the values piece, had been something that I'd learned in 933 00:52:48.570 --> 00:52:54.789 my design and business consulting work. And

the values were 934 00:52:54.849 --> 00:52:58.570 a way to go into a company that was struggling 935 00:52:59.050 --> 00:53:02.170 or a company that was making an innovative product or 936 00:53:02.210 --> 00:53:07.900 something new and help people collaborate around making that product 937 00:53:08.099 --> 00:53:12.110 or that change successful. And so that was where I 938 00:53:12.150 --> 00:53:16.809 was introduced to this idea of people experience anxiety when 939 00:53:16.829 --> 00:53:19.460 they're asked to do something new. And the way to 940 00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:21.559 help them through that is to have a shared set 941 00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:25.079 of values that help us say, OK, this is what 942 00:53:25.099 --> 00:53:27.119 I'm really struggling with right now. But I know that 943 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:30.969 doing this is what's going to make me happy six 944 00:53:31.010 --> 00:53:34.730 months down the road. Because the values in that case 945 00:53:34.750 --> 00:53:38.369 were always based around the customer. Yeah. but then to 946 00:53:38.429 --> 00:53:41.059 make a product, it takes a year or something like that. 947 00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:43.659 So you're really wrestling away and if you start to 948 00:53:43.699 --> 00:53:47.059 react to your own urges and your own ideas, that 949 00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:50.000 may make you feel good at that moment. You can 950 00:53:50.019 --> 00:53:51.480 fall back on what you've done before but then when 951 00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:55.980 the product launches, customers won't like it because you haven't 952 00:53:56.300 --> 00:54:02.630 created something that aligns with their values. So values, this 953 00:54:02.670 --> 00:54:04.829 was so helpful for me to recognize when I was 954 00:54:04.869 --> 00:54:10.179 doing therapy. Because I always had ideas about what I 955 00:54:10.219 --> 00:54:12.179 wanted to do. I always wanted to fall back on 956 00:54:12.219 --> 00:54:15.480 what I'd done before, which were the compulsions. Having a 957 00:54:15.579 --> 00:54:19.219 clear set of values and understanding why that was important 958 00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:22.179 and understanding that in a sense I was my customer. 959 00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:25.929 So I was going to receive this product six months 960 00:54:25.969 --> 00:54:29.650 down the road. I knew that if I stuck to 961 00:54:29.710 --> 00:54:32.289 those values, I was gonna be happy with that product, 962 00:54:32.409 --> 00:54:36.050 my life, in six months. And so that's why I'd 963 00:54:36.090 --> 00:54:38.449 say for somebody that wants to know what's the point 964 00:54:38.469 --> 00:54:42.070 of values. Your values are the thing that will help 965 00:54:42.210 --> 00:54:46.659 pull you through that extreme anxiety. It's really about saying, okay, 966 00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:49.599 I'm experiencing this right now. I feel terrible. I want 967 00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:52.019 to do these things I've done before. But you know what? 968

00:54:52.099 --> 00:54:56.000 I've seen the results of that. I know where those 969 00:54:56.039 --> 00:55:00.440 compulsions lead. I don't like that experience. And so I'm 970 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:02.719 going to stick to my values. I'm going to push 971 00:55:02.780 --> 00:55:06.829 through this storm and keep moving in that direction. And 972 00:55:06.869 --> 00:55:11.210 your values will be your compass. And they're really going 973 00:55:11.230 --> 00:55:17.460 to carry you through that. The other thing, the other 974 00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:19.659 reason it's so important to stick to values is you 975 00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:23.699 really start to see how in a moment and like 976 00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.599 in the short term, when we get caught up with compulsions, 977 00:55:27.010 --> 00:55:29.929 particularly get caught up with the anxiety, we often make 978 00:55:29.989 --> 00:55:34.769 decisions that are actually very, very bad for us. So 979 00:55:34.789 --> 00:55:36.949 I think health anxiety is a great example of this. 980 00:55:38.090 --> 00:55:39.769 So when you're struggling with health anxiety, you might think, 981 00:55:39.829 --> 00:55:43.300 oh no, I'm really anxious right now. What if I 982 00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:45.559 have this horrible thing happening to my body? I better 983 00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:48.000 go and check online or Google or go to the 984 00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:49.900 doctor and get a whole bunch of tests and so on. 985 00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:55.519 What's happening there is a person is doing something that's 986 00:55:56.139 --> 00:55:59.730 very unhealthy for them that we know is going to 987 00:55:59.769 --> 00:56:02.090 hurt them, that they know will hurt them. So engaging 988 00:56:02.130 --> 00:56:05.449 in those compulsions. But they're doing that as a reaction 989 00:56:05.889 --> 00:56:09.429 only to the possibility that they might have an illness. 990 00:56:11.489 --> 00:56:15.139 And the moment we start not acting in line with 991 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:18.659 our values, but instead reacting to those urges, we are 992 00:56:18.820 --> 00:56:22.940 actively choosing to do things that hurt us. And we 993 00:56:22.980 --> 00:56:26.719 do this for years. And that's why we eventually recognize 994 00:56:26.739 --> 00:56:29.440 we're struggling. We go and seek help. But it's so 995 00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:31.639 useful to start to recognize that the things we want 996 00:56:31.659 --> 00:56:35.389 to do in those moments are hurt us and to 997 00:56:35.489 --> 00:56:39.539 really start to develop that distaste for those actions. Because 998 00:56:39.699 --> 00:56:42.440 it's literally in those moments what we're doing. We're like 999 00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:45.889 somebody going to the beach saying, oh, like I'm really 1000 00:56:45.969 --> 00:56:52.010 worried about, you know, getting attacked by a shark. So 1001 00:56:52.150 --> 00:56:54.719 I'm going to chop off my hands and my feet 1002 00:56:55.400 --> 00:57:00.280 so that a shark does not bite them. And yeah, 1003 00:57:00.429 --> 00:57:03.489 that will prevent a shark from chewing off your hands 1004 00:57:03.550 --> 00:57:06.949 and feet. But you've also just created the thing you 1005 00:57:06.969 --> 00:57:10.949 were trying to avoid. And that happens every single time 1006 00:57:11.429 --> 00:57:16.429 with OCD. You can totally engage in that compulsion, but 1007 00:57:16.469 --> 00:57:20.429 you are choosing to cause a problem. You are choosing 1008 00:57:20.469 --> 00:57:22.489 to do something we know is going to damage you 1009 00:57:23.510 --> 00:57:27.429 only out of the fear of avoiding damage. and that's 1010 00:57:27.449 --> 00:57:29.730 why we have those values there so you can so 1011 00:57:29.750 --> 00:57:33.199 you can recognize that say okay i i feel this 1012 00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:34.949 urge to do this thing right now but actually i 1013 00:57:34.989 --> 00:57:36.699 know it's going to hurt me i'm going to do 1014 00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:39.360 even though it's tough i'm going to stick with my values. 1015 00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:42.719 Right now yeah that's a that's a really good way 1016 00:57:42.739 --> 00:57:45.480 of looking at it and i think uh you know 1017 00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:49.719 relationship focused ocd is a good example of that in 1018 00:57:49.739 --> 00:57:52.420 the sense of people are worried about the relationship being 1019 00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.099 wrong or whatever so then You know, they get all anxious, 1020 00:57:55.139 --> 00:57:58.960 do reassurance seeking, do other compulsions, which actually just puts 1021 00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:00.500 more strain on the relationship. 1022 00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:01.159 Totally. 1023 00:58:01.179 --> 00:58:03.719 It causes the thing they were worried about, it makes 1024 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.929 it not inevitable, but more likely to happen. 1025 00:58:07.550 --> 00:58:10.329 Totally, yeah. Worrying about your relationship and trying to control 1026 00:58:10.369 --> 00:58:12.809 that is a great way to end it. Yeah. Absolutely. 1027 00:58:13.610 --> 00:58:17.070 Yeah, I mean, yeah. It's kind of learning to have faith, 1028 00:58:17.969 --> 00:58:21.519 as you say, in your values around the relationship. And 1029 00:58:21.579 --> 00:58:24.320 that's what will make the relationship last. It is meant 1030 00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:24.719 to last. 1031 00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.039 Exactly. And that's totally the thing. In so many relationship challenges, 1032 00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:31.610 being able to say, okay, what do I value in 1033 00:58:31.619 --> 00:58:37.210 the relationship? That's what I'm going to put my energy into. Because, too, 1034 00:58:37.389 --> 00:58:39.789 if you took a step back and you looked at 1035 00:58:39.849 --> 00:58:42.469 what a person's doing when they're reacting to relationship anxiety 1036 00:58:42.510 --> 00:58:44.809 and you asked them, like, is this something you care

1037 00:58:44.849 --> 00:58:47.730 about in a relationship? Like, do you value doing these things? 1038 00:58:48.909 --> 00:58:52.889 They would probably very emphatically tell you no. Yeah. In 1039 00:58:52.909 --> 00:58:54.869 the moment though, yeah, it totally seemed like the right 1040 00:58:54.889 --> 00:58:55.409 thing to do. 1041 00:58:56.670 --> 00:58:59.510 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the thing I find with values 1042 00:58:59.550 --> 00:59:04.510 that helps me is values, when times are tough and 1043 00:59:04.530 --> 00:59:06.969 you have to live by your values, you don't have to, 1044 00:59:07.110 --> 00:59:09.590 you know you should live by your values and you 1045 00:59:09.610 --> 00:59:11.739 know that if in theory if you live by your 1046 00:59:11.780 --> 00:59:14.539 values things will work out but when you're in a 1047 00:59:14.599 --> 00:59:17.019 bad place you think this isn't going to work out 1048 00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:19.579 this isn't going to change for me it's always having 1049 00:59:19.699 --> 00:59:23.610 faith in my value you know i originally said it 1050 00:59:23.690 --> 00:59:25.869 or it's something that mattered to me so therefore right 1051 00:59:25.909 --> 00:59:27.750 now although i don't think this value is going to 1052 00:59:27.789 --> 00:59:30.199 pull me through I have to have a great amount 1053 00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:33.320 of faith in it that although I can't see the staircases, 1054 00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:36.840 Martin Luther King says, the stairs will appear if I 1055 00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:39.280 just take those steps. And that helps me. 1056 00:59:41.619 --> 00:59:44.500 It's interesting to use words like faith because it really 1057 00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:48.570 is this learning to have this unreasonable belief in it. 1058 00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:52.699 Because in those moments, your brain will think of all 1059 00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:55.840 these rational reasons why you should engage in the compulsion. 1060 00:59:57.289 --> 00:59:59.250 And so I found that too. Like I just, I 1061 00:59:59.289 --> 01:00:01.010 have to commit to it. Like this is the way 1062 01:00:01.050 --> 01:00:05.570 I do things. I don't care what I think right now. Yeah. Yeah. 1063 01:00:05.650 --> 01:00:07.650 And then the results you with that, you start to 1064 01:00:07.690 --> 01:00:10.989 see the results. And I think that's, so even with 1065 01:00:11.030 --> 01:00:14.690 something like the mind workout, it's, you only see like 1066 01:00:14.750 --> 01:00:16.750 if someone had just read the book and they didn't 1067 01:00:16.969 --> 01:00:20.260 do the things in the book. Yeah. It doesn't, it 1068 01:00:20.300 --> 01:00:22.949 doesn't do anything. Like it really is an exercise program. 1069 01:00:23.340 --> 01:00:25.159 I think with all these things with mental health, like you, 1070 01:00:25.260 --> 01:00:28.940 you have to do them. And that's kind of why 1071 01:00:28.980 --> 01:00:31.860 we have these communities and

why we started doing these 1072 01:00:31.900 --> 01:00:34.530 things so that we can talk about doing these exercises 1073 01:00:34.590 --> 01:00:37.739 and support each other. Because it is just like fitness. 1074 01:00:38.130 --> 01:00:42.329 It's an ongoing process. You'll run into challenges. So anybody 1075 01:00:42.369 --> 01:00:46.050 out there reading this book or any other book, talk 1076 01:00:46.090 --> 01:00:49.530 about it. Do the exercises. These aren't just things we 1077 01:00:49.570 --> 01:00:53.570 can talk about. They have to be things you do. 1078 01:00:54.309 --> 01:00:56.829 And then we collaborate on succeeding with them. 1079 01:00:58.030 --> 01:00:59.769 Yeah, absolutely. I was going to make that point at 1080 01:00:59.809 --> 01:01:02.630 the end of the podcast, is that people hopefully, if 1081 01:01:03.170 --> 01:01:05.429 they want to read your book or listen on Audible, 1082 01:01:05.909 --> 01:01:08.489 is to do the exercises at the end of each chapter, 1083 01:01:08.510 --> 01:01:13.530 because change comes from action. It doesn't come from anything else. 1084 01:01:15.099 --> 01:01:17.500 Peace in the world won't come from thinking about a 1085 01:01:17.519 --> 01:01:21.139 peaceful world. It will come from doing peaceful things. And 1086 01:01:21.159 --> 01:01:24.019 it's the same with the podcast. I like it when 1087 01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:28.599 people listen. Hopefully it gives them reassurance and comfort. reassurance, 1088 01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:34.099 not in a compulsion way. But ultimately, what I want is, 1089 01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:35.860 I don't even care if people like the show, I 1090 01:01:35.880 --> 01:01:37.960 just want them to be able to take actionable points 1091 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:40.199 and implement it and make a difference in their life 1092 01:01:40.260 --> 01:01:42.400 because that's what matters to me, not whether they think 1093 01:01:42.460 --> 01:01:46.179 I'm a good interviewer or not. Although, you know, compliments 1094 01:01:46.239 --> 01:01:46.659 are welcome. 1095 01:01:47.519 --> 01:01:50.659 Please put compliments down below in the comments. 1096 01:01:52.670 --> 01:01:56.630 Yeah, so it's just action. I do this podcast for 1097 01:01:56.670 --> 01:01:59.710 no other reason. I know you wrote this book because 1098 01:01:59.730 --> 01:02:02.840 you want people to change their lives. 1099 01:02:03.219 --> 01:02:04.860 Yeah, you do these things and then you start to 1100 01:02:04.900 --> 01:02:08.860 see these changes that you never thought possible. And that 1101 01:02:08.900 --> 01:02:11.199 was what really got me on to this stuff in 1102 01:02:11.219 --> 01:02:14.050 the first place. Mental illness had always been part of 1103 01:02:14.090 --> 01:02:16.969 my life. I'd always been working on making it worse 1104 01:02:17.050 --> 01:02:21.500 until it took over my life completely and Learning that 1105 01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:25.599 you could actually make changes was so surprising to me 1106 01:02:25.619 --> 01:02:27.800 because it wasn't something you really heard about. When people 1107 01:02:27.840 --> 01:02:30.639 talked about mental health, it was, oh, you struggle with 1108 01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:33.769 this thing and you have it and so on. So 1109 01:02:33.869 --> 01:02:37.170 learning that you could make those changes I don't think 1110 01:02:37.230 --> 01:02:42.769 would have been as effective or inspiring had I not 1111 01:02:42.849 --> 01:02:47.070 experienced them. Right. And that been the way that I 1112 01:02:47.110 --> 01:02:50.489 learned about them. Like it was really about learning how 1113 01:02:50.510 --> 01:02:52.750 to cut out compulsions that had been in my life forever, 1114 01:02:53.150 --> 01:02:55.349 learning how to do things I never thought I could 1115 01:02:55.369 --> 01:02:58.409 do because I'm just not that type of person. You know, 1116 01:02:58.489 --> 01:03:00.590 I have these things that prevent me from doing that. 1117 01:03:01.150 --> 01:03:03.829 So being able to see that then gives you that faith. 1118 01:03:04.929 --> 01:03:08.360 that you were talking about there, because you encounter these 1119 01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:12.500 huge challenges. And so having seen that these practices work, 1120 01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:14.760 you can then say, okay, I know what my brain 1121 01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:17.780 is doing right now, but I'm going to stick to 1122 01:03:17.820 --> 01:03:21.849 these practices that I know work. Without that personal awareness, 1123 01:03:22.369 --> 01:03:25.809 it's so difficult to have that faith. And it's so 1124 01:03:25.849 --> 01:03:30.010 difficult to understand how to translate these practices into your life. 1125 01:03:30.610 --> 01:03:36.059 Because I think, just like physical fitness, like, nobody exercises 1126 01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:39.559 in the same way as somebody else. Everybody ends up 1127 01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:42.599 figuring out ways to incorporate fitness into their life in 1128 01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:44.880 a way that makes sense, in a way that overcomes 1129 01:03:44.920 --> 01:03:47.739 the challenges in their lives. And that's something to do 1130 01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:51.039 with the mind workout or anything else. But you can 1131 01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:55.179 only learn how to do that by exercising. You can't 1132 01:03:55.260 --> 01:03:56.559 sit there and be like, okay, I'm going to come 1133 01:03:56.619 --> 01:04:00.159 up with the perfect plan for exercise and then I'm 1134 01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:03.460 going to exercise. Because you really can't see the challenges 1135 01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:06.059 until you do it. And you can't see the benefits 1136 01:04:06.340 --> 01:04:07.710 and the successes until you do it. 1137 01:04:08.739 --> 01:04:11.340 Yeah, I mean, that's actually true. As you implement things, 1138 01:04:11.380 --> 01:04:15.039 you get learnings, you get feedback. Sometimes it doesn't work 1139

01:04:15.099 --> 01:04:17.219 and that's fine because that's told you that that way 1140 01:04:17.260 --> 01:04:19.329 is a dead end and you can now focus somewhere else. 1141 01:04:19.789 --> 01:04:21.630 And you find that this thing works for you and 1142 01:04:21.650 --> 01:04:24.329 that's great. And it's, yeah, it's just trial and error. 1143 01:04:24.349 --> 01:04:29.710 I think for me, life generally, but especially in recovery, 1144 01:04:30.170 --> 01:04:32.440 the key to success in it is learning to fail. 1145 01:04:33.019 --> 01:04:35.659 It's just try, try, try all these different things, keep 1146 01:04:35.719 --> 01:04:38.369 failing because eventually you'll find what works for you as 1147 01:04:38.389 --> 01:04:41.530 an individual. But you've got to be willing to fail 1148 01:04:41.610 --> 01:04:43.630 and not be scared of that. 1149 01:04:44.570 --> 01:04:48.550 Absolutely. I think that that's such an important point to learn. 1150 01:04:49.389 --> 01:04:52.449 And for whatever reason with mental health, we've never as 1151 01:04:52.510 --> 01:04:56.130 a society really embraced that. Like failure is such a 1152 01:04:56.170 --> 01:04:59.030 part of fitness. And this is one of the reasons 1153 01:04:59.090 --> 01:05:02.639 I use this metaphor of fitness throughout the book. Because 1154 01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:07.739 if you go to the gym and take any really 1155 01:05:07.820 --> 01:05:11.099 fit person at the gym, they're going to exercise that 1156 01:05:11.139 --> 01:05:14.079 day until they fail. In many ways, they might be 1157 01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:17.389 doing a workout that specifically says in the workout, do 1158 01:05:17.449 --> 01:05:21.849 bench press at a lighter weight to fail. And at 1159 01:05:21.889 --> 01:05:25.170 that point, they can't lift anymore. You could say they're weak. 1160 01:05:26.050 --> 01:05:29.309 But we don't associate that with weakness. We associate that 1161 01:05:29.329 --> 01:05:32.010 with strength. And we know that's how a person gets stronger. 1162 01:05:32.750 --> 01:05:36.269 For some reason in mental health, we just, oh, failure 1163 01:05:36.309 --> 01:05:38.369 is the end of the world. When you hit that 1164 01:05:38.429 --> 01:05:40.909 failure point, that means that therapy doesn't work or that 1165 01:05:40.969 --> 01:05:44.619 exercise doesn't work. But in reality, that just means things 1166 01:05:44.659 --> 01:05:47.300 did work. So now you do it again and then 1167 01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:50.679 you do it again. And, you know, if the failure 1168 01:05:50.800 --> 01:05:54.960 was something you didn't want, like say you were training 1169 01:05:55.019 --> 01:05:57.650 for a 5K race, you ran the race and you 1170 01:05:57.730 --> 01:06:00.320 couldn't run all the way. So they would say, okay, well, 1171 01:06:00.340 --> 01:06:02.659 that was a failure. I wanted to run the whole 1172 01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:04.840 way and I couldn't. We know that doesn't mean you 1173 01:06:04.900 --> 01:06:07.699 can't run it. We know that just means there needed 1174 01:06:07.719 --> 01:06:10.039 to be changes in the activities leading up to it. 1175 01:06:11.019 --> 01:06:12.840 And it's the same with mental health. So if you 1176 01:06:12.860 --> 01:06:16.230 were trying to cut out compulsions and you're failing at it, 1177 01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:20.699 that's just saying there are things you need to change 1178 01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:25.059 before you try to change those compulsions. And it's totally doable. 1179 01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:29.639 And that failure is great. it's like you're saying there 1180 01:06:29.659 --> 01:06:31.960 is you have to learn how to do that um 1181 01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:33.860 and it doesn't have to be a bad thing in 1182 01:06:33.900 --> 01:06:38.280 many ways failure can become the goal of your mental 1183 01:06:38.300 --> 01:06:41.960 health practice yeah and each day you can try to 1184 01:06:42.019 --> 01:06:47.260 fail and then fail better and keep failing and yeah 1185 01:06:47.380 --> 01:06:49.719 as you keep failing you'll find that point of failure 1186 01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:52.340 gets further and further and further out and you're able 1187 01:06:52.380 --> 01:06:53.260 to do more and more and. 1188 01:06:53.239 --> 01:06:56.440 More absolutely yeah yeah gotta be willing to take the 1189 01:06:56.480 --> 01:06:59.619 risk um I feel like I could do a whole 1190 01:06:59.639 --> 01:07:02.739 podcast on failure. Absolutely. 1191 01:07:02.760 --> 01:07:08.030 Do a bunch. Like fail at it a bunch of times. Yeah. 1192 01:07:09.150 --> 01:07:11.730 Make a point by failing. I've got a question on 1193 01:07:11.789 --> 01:07:13.989 one of your exercises towards the end, which I didn't 1194 01:07:14.030 --> 01:07:15.869 get to in the audio book, but I skimmed through 1195 01:07:15.889 --> 01:07:21.239 the actual book. And it's called the path exercise. It 1196 01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:24.440 might be named different to that. But basically, so you 1197 01:07:24.460 --> 01:07:27.909 put down The things you value, the things that you 1198 01:07:27.929 --> 01:07:30.449 do when you're on your path, things that you're doing 1199 01:07:30.469 --> 01:07:32.650 when you're just off the path, and the things you're 1200 01:07:32.670 --> 01:07:35.550 doing when you're way off the path, which is the 1201 01:07:35.570 --> 01:07:38.489 path being where you want to be. And I actually 1202 01:07:38.510 --> 01:07:42.119 started to do this exercise today. I won't show my 1203 01:07:42.179 --> 01:07:46.139 list because it's embarrassing things on there. But it's definitely 1204 01:07:46.179 --> 01:07:48.239 like as the day's gone on, especially in the more 1205 01:07:48.300 --> 01:07:51.420 negative columns, I've realized, oh, wow, there's actually more that 1206 01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:54.250 I could put in here. then originally came to mind, 1207 01:07:54.329 --> 01:07:56.309 and it'd be good for you to explain

that exercise. 1208 01:07:57.150 --> 01:08:00.610 Yeah, I think the PATH exercise is something, just as 1209 01:08:00.670 --> 01:08:03.739 a concept, that I really credit with being able to 1210 01:08:03.780 --> 01:08:10.179 maintain recovery and really turning mental illness into something that 1211 01:08:10.380 --> 01:08:16.470 is entirely something you're in charge of. you really start 1212 01:08:16.510 --> 01:08:20.689 to see what are the actions that you know are 1213 01:08:20.729 --> 01:08:22.430 going to lead you back to a place you don't 1214 01:08:22.449 --> 01:08:26.869 want to be. And that's that middle column. So one 1215 01:08:26.909 --> 01:08:29.140 way to think of the path exercise is really you 1216 01:08:29.149 --> 01:08:33.920 have three columns. So the first column are the things 1217 01:08:33.939 --> 01:08:35.699 that are on your path. These are the things you 1218 01:08:35.720 --> 01:08:38.260 want to keep doing. And then you have that next column. 1219 01:08:38.300 --> 01:08:41.420 Those are the things that are just off the path. 1220 01:08:42.750 --> 01:08:44.890 And then you have that third column where you know 1221 01:08:44.949 --> 01:08:48.680 you're deep in the mental illness at that point. In recovery, 1222 01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:52.460 we want to stay in the first column. So the 1223 01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:56.869 things that are on your path. The middle column, those 1224 01:08:56.909 --> 01:08:59.600 are things that we often think of as normal. So 1225 01:08:59.619 --> 01:09:01.439 if you do those things, like you mentioned there's some 1226 01:09:01.460 --> 01:09:05.659 things that would be embarrassing, chances are that middle column though, 1227 01:09:05.939 --> 01:09:08.359 those are things that are normal. Like you could tell 1228 01:09:08.439 --> 01:09:10.199 people all about them and they'd be like, oh yeah, 1229 01:09:10.279 --> 01:09:12.600 I do that all the time or yeah, that always 1230 01:09:12.619 --> 01:09:15.340 happens to me too. But those are the things that 1231 01:09:15.500 --> 01:09:18.600 if you start doing those in your life, you know 1232 01:09:18.659 --> 01:09:21.470 the natural outcome of that is to get back into 1233 01:09:21.489 --> 01:09:25.350 the illness. Because it's really starting to see it as 1234 01:09:25.390 --> 01:09:29.590 a practice. This very logical progression. And those things in 1235 01:09:30.130 --> 01:09:32.229 that column, they could be in your head. They could 1236 01:09:32.250 --> 01:09:36.890 be out in the real world. And so an example 1237 01:09:36.930 --> 01:09:40.979 for somebody might be the mornings. They might recognize, oh, 1238 01:09:41.479 --> 01:09:43.800 you know, so sometimes I used to do lots of 1239 01:09:43.859 --> 01:09:47.340 compulsions in the morning. Now I've cut out those compulsions 1240 01:09:47.380 --> 01:09:49.340 in the morning. Now, you know, first thing I get 1241 01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:50.779 up and I go and do this thing that I 1242 01:09:50.819 --> 01:09:55.010 really care about. The middle might be, oh, like I 1243 01:09:55.050 --> 01:09:57.890 wake up and, you know, I don't do compulsions. I 1244 01:09:57.930 --> 01:09:59.289 just kind of, you know, I stay in bed and 1245 01:09:59.329 --> 01:10:02.390 I check the news and I answer some emails there. 1246 01:10:03.220 --> 01:10:05.279 And they might notice that's like that's a normal thing. 1247 01:10:05.340 --> 01:10:07.130 Lots of people do that. There's nothing wrong with it. 1248 01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:13.199 But they know that's the first step towards going back 1249 01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:15.899 to the compulsions. And so if they want to stay 1250 01:10:16.909 --> 01:10:20.649 in recovery, that's the point. They need to recognize that 1251 01:10:20.689 --> 01:10:25.649 things are a problem and stop it. And people, you know, 1252 01:10:26.699 --> 01:10:30.699 as people are dealing with mental health challenges, they tend 1253 01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:33.199 to start to recognize these things, these indicators. And so 1254 01:10:33.220 --> 01:10:36.159 there's a lot of technology startups now looking at ways 1255 01:10:36.220 --> 01:10:38.239 to predict these things so that we actually start to 1256 01:10:38.310 --> 01:10:42.090 see that anxiety, depression, whatever it may be, psychosis as 1257 01:10:42.149 --> 01:10:45.250 well are predictable. And we can start to see it 1258 01:10:45.310 --> 01:10:49.109 in people's actions, what they're doing, where they're going. And 1259 01:10:49.170 --> 01:10:51.760 so the path exercise is really about you starting to 1260 01:10:51.800 --> 01:10:56.640 recognize that stuff. So the moment, one way to think 1261 01:10:56.659 --> 01:10:58.220 of it is like often when we're on a path, 1262 01:10:58.300 --> 01:11:01.319 it might be pavement. So walking on the path is 1263 01:11:01.359 --> 01:11:03.340 kind of like this quiet experience. The moment you step 1264 01:11:03.399 --> 01:11:05.220 onto the side of the path, maybe there's some gravel. 1265 01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:10.029 And so you hear the crunch. It's starting to understand 1266 01:11:10.069 --> 01:11:12.890 when you hear the crunch in your life. Okay, I've 1267 01:11:12.909 --> 01:11:14.850 stepped off now. At this point, I have a choice. 1268 01:11:15.850 --> 01:11:19.989 I can step back on the path or I can 1269 01:11:20.050 --> 01:11:23.369 step off the path into the weeds. and the mud 1270 01:11:23.890 --> 01:11:27.109 and whatever may be there. Yeah. And yeah, you, you 1271 01:11:27.149 --> 01:11:27.760 have that choice. 1272 01:11:28.399 --> 01:11:29.760 Yeah. 1273 01:11:29.770 --> 01:11:32.420 So choose, choose whichever one you think would be most useful. 1274 01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:36.180 Yeah. No, I mean, I love that exercise and I 1275 01:11:36.180 --> 01:11:39.180 think it's also useful because especially in the far right column, 1276 01:11:39.220 --> 01:11:42.699 the way off path, you know, I've got porn in

there, 1277 01:11:42.739 --> 01:11:44.899 which I'm not ashamed of. Well, I am ashamed of it, 1278 01:11:44.939 --> 01:11:48.359 but I'm not ashamed of saying it. Um, so like, 1279 01:11:49.250 --> 01:11:51.680 And a couple other things in that column. And now 1280 01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:55.560 writing it down makes it even more bad because I've 1281 01:11:55.579 --> 01:11:58.020 decided that it's bad and it's not good for my 1282 01:11:58.159 --> 01:12:02.560 mental health and general happiness. Whereas before it was just 1283 01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:04.199 in my head and I knew I didn't want to 1284 01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:07.409 do it. I think when you write it down, it 1285 01:12:07.430 --> 01:12:08.689 becomes far more real. 1286 01:12:10.970 --> 01:12:14.369 Absolutely. There is something to that. When it's in our head, 1287 01:12:14.409 --> 01:12:17.470 it's easy to forget. And we always do that. I 1288 01:12:17.510 --> 01:12:19.199 found that all the time. I would, you know, in 1289 01:12:19.239 --> 01:12:21.229 my head try to think, okay, I've moved on from 1290 01:12:21.250 --> 01:12:24.289 whatever compulsion. But then I would find myself doing it again. 1291 01:12:24.729 --> 01:12:26.569 And then I'd be like, oh, yeah, I wasn't supposed 1292 01:12:26.609 --> 01:12:30.310 to do that. But your brain, yeah, if you leave 1293 01:12:30.329 --> 01:12:32.449 it in your brain, well, your brain wants to do 1294 01:12:32.470 --> 01:12:36.189 the compulsion. So it will conveniently forget that that's a 1295 01:12:36.210 --> 01:12:40.569 thing you don't want to do. Yeah. Yeah. And so 1296 01:12:40.640 --> 01:12:42.100 much of this, I talk about this in the book. 1297 01:12:42.180 --> 01:12:44.699 So many of these exercises come from, again, like the 1298 01:12:44.720 --> 01:12:49.300 world of business design. And so we really start to recognize, oh, 1299 01:12:49.699 --> 01:12:51.149 if you just hold a meeting, and you can think 1300 01:12:51.189 --> 01:12:52.699 of this, you hold a meeting with a team and 1301 01:12:52.729 --> 01:12:54.729 you tell everybody, okay, this is what we're gonna do. 1302 01:12:55.649 --> 01:12:59.149 Would people do it? Probably not. You can't be surprised 1303 01:12:59.229 --> 01:13:01.069 if four months down the road, people didn't do the 1304 01:13:01.149 --> 01:13:03.909 things we said we were gonna do. The only way 1305 01:13:03.949 --> 01:13:07.729 they happen is if they're persistent and visible. And it's 1306 01:13:07.770 --> 01:13:10.170 so important to bring those practices into your own life. 1307 01:13:10.590 --> 01:13:15.560 If it's not visible in your life, separate from your brain, 1308 01:13:16.840 --> 01:13:20.039 You're probably not going to do it. You're going to 1309 01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:22.640 forget about it. It's not going to be there when 1310 01:13:22.659 --> 01:13:26.439 you're struggling with uncertainty. And that's why it's so useful 1311 01:13:26.460 --> 01:13:30.239 to have your values articulated very clearly. Because when you're 1312 01:13:30.310 --> 01:13:34.609 struggling with uncertainty, you can't sit down and start to 1313 01:13:34.630 --> 01:13:36.890 be like, okay, I'm so anxious right now. I'm having 1314 01:13:36.930 --> 01:13:39.170 this panic attack, but I will sit down now and 1315 01:13:39.250 --> 01:13:41.930 calmly think about my values and consider which one to 1316 01:13:41.970 --> 01:13:46.039 apply in this situation. It doesn't work. So having something 1317 01:13:46.539 --> 01:13:49.659 that's physical is going to help you in those situations. 1318 01:13:50.560 --> 01:13:53.119 To see it and be like, oh yeah, that's the 1319 01:13:53.140 --> 01:13:55.770 thing I'm doing. Okay, forget what's happening in my brain 1320 01:13:55.810 --> 01:13:59.029 right now. These are the actions I take. And that 1321 01:13:59.050 --> 01:14:01.130 was something I used to do when I was really 1322 01:14:01.189 --> 01:14:05.010 struggling with cutting out compulsions. I would actually very meticulously 1323 01:14:05.529 --> 01:14:08.739 write out specific actions. Like I am going to get 1324 01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:11.180 up from the computer. I'm going to shut off the computer. 1325 01:14:11.199 --> 01:14:13.359 I am going to walk. And so I would have 1326 01:14:13.439 --> 01:14:16.529 that written in advance. because I had seen where I 1327 01:14:16.569 --> 01:14:18.630 was struggling. So someone could do this in the bathroom, 1328 01:14:19.409 --> 01:14:22.710 wherever they're dealing with compulsions, be like, you're going to 1329 01:14:22.750 --> 01:14:25.569 turn on the faucet. You are going to turn off 1330 01:14:25.609 --> 01:14:27.829 the faucet once. You are going to leave the bathroom. 1331 01:14:28.890 --> 01:14:32.310 Because it wasn't something I could do in my head. 1332 01:14:35.609 --> 01:14:37.930 Once your brain's not working for you, anything you can 1333 01:14:37.970 --> 01:14:40.350 do to not listen to your brain is so useful. 1334 01:14:41.800 --> 01:14:44.520 Yeah, no, I agree. Have something written down so you 1335 01:14:45.550 --> 01:14:47.850 you don't have to kind of going back to the 1336 01:14:47.869 --> 01:14:50.310 whole values piece of your brain is going to potentially 1337 01:14:50.369 --> 01:14:52.750 lie to you at times. And if you, if you 1338 01:14:52.810 --> 01:14:55.189 have the certainty of a value, you can be like, okay, 1339 01:14:55.229 --> 01:14:57.029 I know it's lying to me, but I'm, I'm having 1340 01:14:57.130 --> 01:14:59.640 faith in this direction, but instead of faith, if you've 1341 01:14:59.649 --> 01:15:03.619 got it. So what with this diagram, sorry, the path exercise, 1342 01:15:03.659 --> 01:15:05.000 I'm now going to have it in front of me 1343 01:15:05.020 --> 01:15:07.760 on my desk so I can see each day. Uh, 1344 01:15:08.619 --> 01:15:10.930 so when I am doing these things, it just triggers it. 1345 01:15:10.939 --> 01:15:13.270 It reminds me of what I have to

do. Um, 1346 01:15:13.930 --> 01:15:15.189 And I agree with the whole, I used to have 1347 01:15:15.250 --> 01:15:17.829 like a, I called it a cheat sheet or beat 1348 01:15:17.850 --> 01:15:20.729 sheet where I had all the things I needed to 1349 01:15:20.810 --> 01:15:22.369 do that when I was stuck in my head, I 1350 01:15:22.630 --> 01:15:25.149 come to this one sheet and it would clearly tell 1351 01:15:25.189 --> 01:15:27.369 me what I needed to do because I knew in 1352 01:15:27.409 --> 01:15:30.710 that moment I couldn't trust myself. I wouldn't want to 1353 01:15:30.750 --> 01:15:34.529 remember everything. And yeah, it helps, I think. 1354 01:15:35.619 --> 01:15:38.180 Definitely yeah things like that are so useful yeah and 1355 01:15:38.199 --> 01:15:40.760 we have we have such an amazing collection now of 1356 01:15:41.100 --> 01:15:44.460 markers and sticky notes yeah they're colorful make use of them. 1357 01:15:45.979 --> 01:15:47.930 That's yeah behind you i knew i need to do 1358 01:15:47.970 --> 01:15:50.609 that this is my lounge i'd get killed if i 1359 01:15:50.630 --> 01:15:56.529 put post-its everywhere um cool so i got uh the 1360 01:15:56.649 --> 01:16:00.689 usual fun questions we'll just do two of them because 1361 01:16:00.729 --> 01:16:02.909 i think i've asked you all of these several times 1362 01:16:02.970 --> 01:16:06.510 now um okay but I can't remember your answers, so 1363 01:16:06.689 --> 01:16:11.489 it doesn't matter if you give the same one. What 1364 01:16:11.510 --> 01:16:13.449 advice do you have for people to live an amazing life? 1365 01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:15.500 Just generally. 1366 01:16:17.560 --> 01:16:21.060 To live an amazing life, make, and this is something 1367 01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:23.579 I talk about in the book, make success very close 1368 01:16:23.600 --> 01:16:30.189 to you. So often we think an amazing life is 1369 01:16:30.229 --> 01:16:33.520 the thing that's far off. And I have to do 1370 01:16:33.619 --> 01:16:37.960 the following things and then the amazing life happens. And 1371 01:16:38.039 --> 01:16:41.479 so particularly if you've been struggling with anxiety disorder or 1372 01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:47.010 any mental illness, being aware of how we often engaged 1373 01:16:47.069 --> 01:16:50.289 in compulsions to get the feeling we wanted. Even if 1374 01:16:50.329 --> 01:16:54.689 you think of somebody who feels I need to do 1375 01:16:54.729 --> 01:16:57.270 a particular ritual, whether it's out in the real world 1376 01:16:57.310 --> 01:16:59.229 or in my head so that my parents don't die 1377 01:16:59.770 --> 01:17:01.720 or I get rid of these thoughts about my parents dying. 1378 01:17:02.609 --> 01:17:04.520 What that person has done at that moment is put 1379 01:17:04.539 --> 01:17:08.220 their life on hold to do the ritual to get 1380 01:17:08.300 --> 01:17:12.119 this payoff, which, you know, they could say like, you know, 1381 01:17:12.220 --> 01:17:14.140 for me, an

amazing life is knowing that my parents 1382 01:17:14.159 --> 01:17:18.039 aren't going to get killed. And it's just to be 1383 01:17:18.140 --> 01:17:21.260 cognizant of that when we're looking at our lives and 1384 01:17:21.279 --> 01:17:24.979 an amazing life to make sure that it is something 1385 01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:27.560 within your control and you don't have to put your 1386 01:17:27.659 --> 01:17:32.479 life on hold before you get the amazing life. That 1387 01:17:32.500 --> 01:17:36.520 the amazing life is something you can do today. Yeah. 1388 01:17:36.819 --> 01:17:39.779 Because we do have that tendency if we've had that 1389 01:17:39.819 --> 01:17:42.210 struggle with mental illness in the past to believe that's 1390 01:17:42.250 --> 01:17:45.069 how we do things. You know, I need to put 1391 01:17:45.109 --> 01:17:47.069 everything on hold. I'm going to put life on hold 1392 01:17:47.430 --> 01:17:50.149 while I do these rituals, which will then lead to 1393 01:17:50.229 --> 01:17:54.960 the payoff. Yeah. And that's just the same mental illness 1394 01:17:54.979 --> 01:17:58.640 patterns over again. And so what I would say there 1395 01:17:58.680 --> 01:18:03.520 is know that you can have that amazing life right now. And, 1396 01:18:03.729 --> 01:18:06.729 you know, explore your beliefs and your judgments because there 1397 01:18:06.750 --> 01:18:09.470 may be some things you have to change there. Because 1398 01:18:09.930 --> 01:18:15.210 if you believe, you know, an amazing life is only being, 1399 01:18:16.050 --> 01:18:19.409 you know, an astronaut living on Mars, it's going to 1400 01:18:19.430 --> 01:18:21.210 take you a lot of work to get to your 1401 01:18:21.250 --> 01:18:23.689 amazing life. So you're going to be really miserable on 1402 01:18:23.710 --> 01:18:26.829 the way there. So how do you, even if you 1403 01:18:26.869 --> 01:18:29.770 do have something that's a long-term outcome, how do you 1404 01:18:30.550 --> 01:18:36.920 enjoy the practice? Hmm. So if somebody has this big 1405 01:18:36.960 --> 01:18:40.479 long-term outcome, how can they say it was like they 1406 01:18:40.500 --> 01:18:43.020 want to run a marathon? Well, you also need to 1407 01:18:43.100 --> 01:18:47.409 enjoy the practice of getting ready for a marathon because 1408 01:18:47.470 --> 01:18:49.970 if you don't enjoy that and find that to be 1409 01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:55.260 an amazing life uh then you know you're not going 1410 01:18:55.279 --> 01:18:57.819 to get to the outcome because you have to spend 1411 01:18:57.859 --> 01:18:59.539 a lot of time and a lot of energy. 1412 01:18:59.220 --> 01:19:02.689 Yeah and uh and so that's what i would say 1413 01:19:02.729 --> 01:19:05.829 there yeah yeah make the practice yeah that's really a 1414 01:19:05.890 --> 01:19:08.409 really good way of explaining it um i did a 1415 01:19:08.430 --> 01:19:12.229 marathon earlier this year and I mean, the marathon itself 1416 01:19:12.310 --> 01:19:14.989 was the worst, one of the worst experiences of my life. 1417 01:19:15.069 --> 01:19:20.329 And I make no, like, I hated it. It's rare 1418 01:19:20.670 --> 01:19:22.289 for me to ever use the H word. 1419 01:19:23.829 --> 01:19:24.710 What did you hate about it? 1420 01:19:26.170 --> 01:19:29.149 Well, I wasn't prepared, right? So, I mean, that serves 1421 01:19:29.189 --> 01:19:32.180 me right. It's 100% my fault. And if I was prepared, maybe. 1422 01:19:32.619 --> 01:19:35.180 It's weird, though, because when I was early 20s, I 1423 01:19:35.220 --> 01:19:37.859 really got into running and I became quite good at it. 1424 01:19:39.430 --> 01:19:41.989 I only ever did up to half marathon. And I 1425 01:19:43.250 --> 01:19:45.630 just loved running. I got the runner's bug, as they 1426 01:19:45.670 --> 01:19:50.380 call it, or whatever it is. Runner's high, sorry. But now, like, 1427 01:19:50.659 --> 01:19:53.260 it was... I just turned 30, or I started training 1428 01:19:53.300 --> 01:19:56.500 before my 30th. I just... No matter how hard I trained, 1429 01:19:56.520 --> 01:20:00.180 I couldn't get that runner's addiction back. And every time 1430 01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:03.090 I ran, I was like... I wasn't liking it. And 1431 01:20:03.100 --> 01:20:04.789 then I was... And then that was worse, right? And 1432 01:20:04.810 --> 01:20:08.260 this is where I should have controlled it, was... Even, 1433 01:20:09.319 --> 01:20:11.579 you know, the day prepping up to going for a 1434 01:20:11.600 --> 01:20:14.039 training run, my mind would go, why are you doing this? 1435 01:20:14.079 --> 01:20:16.279 You don't want to do this. You hate this. And 1436 01:20:16.300 --> 01:20:18.800 then I'm going to hate the run because I spent 1437 01:20:18.819 --> 01:20:23.899 the last four hours terrified of doing the run. So 1438 01:20:23.939 --> 01:20:25.239 I think for me, it might have been a more 1439 01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:29.270 psychological thing that got in my way. But yeah, I didn't. 1440 01:20:29.369 --> 01:20:32.149 I didn't, as you said, I didn't enjoy the process 1441 01:20:32.310 --> 01:20:35.430 of training. And I think I could have. So I 1442 01:20:35.449 --> 01:20:37.680 don't think Because I know I have the capacity to 1443 01:20:37.739 --> 01:20:38.220 love running. 1444 01:20:40.350 --> 01:20:44.810 I think this even gets at one of the biggest 1445 01:20:44.869 --> 01:20:47.670 challenges or biggest skills that we end up working on 1446 01:20:47.710 --> 01:20:53.649 in recovery too is exploring enjoyment. Because for so many years, 1447 01:20:54.670 --> 01:20:59.079 we base enjoyment on solving some anxiety or getting rid 1448 01:20:59.100 --> 01:21:03.319 of a feeling or getting some feeling. And I found personally, 1449 01:21:03.340 --> 01:21:07.520 and I see people... struggling with this now and end 1450 01:21:07.579 --> 01:21:11.170 up working with people on it so there's something about 1451 01:21:11.270 --> 01:21:14.750

enjoyment and learning how to be able to give enjoyment 1452 01:21:15.149 --> 01:21:19.270 to what we're doing after years of always expecting the 1453 01:21:19.350 --> 01:21:23.680 thing to provide enjoyment and it's it's definitely a skill 1454 01:21:23.859 --> 01:21:25.939 and it's one that you know even as a society 1455 01:21:25.979 --> 01:21:28.020 you could say we're not we're not taught about we're 1456 01:21:28.739 --> 01:21:32.979 you know, marketing really puts us in it that enjoyment, relaxation, 1457 01:21:33.079 --> 01:21:36.140 all these things only come from stuff outside of us. 1458 01:21:36.939 --> 01:21:39.350 And so we have to go and like have this 1459 01:21:39.399 --> 01:21:43.090 wild time, you know, drinking whatever at whatever bar in 1460 01:21:43.130 --> 01:21:46.329 order to have enjoyment or to relax. We have to 1461 01:21:46.350 --> 01:21:48.569 go to whatever peaceful place and it has to have 1462 01:21:48.609 --> 01:21:52.680 all of these different things and then we can have relaxation. And, 1463 01:21:52.779 --> 01:21:55.479 but again, we're still in that reactive trying to get 1464 01:21:56.100 --> 01:22:00.039 stuff mode. And so I think it's actually, you know, 1465 01:22:00.060 --> 01:22:05.199 going through these experiences are really interesting because enjoyment is 1466 01:22:05.260 --> 01:22:10.979 not a simple thing. And we have to explore it, 1467 01:22:11.420 --> 01:22:15.899 I think. So congratulations on your marathon experience. 1468 01:22:16.199 --> 01:22:19.210 Yeah, I'm trying to wipe it from my memory. I mean, 1469 01:22:19.789 --> 01:22:23.109 I raised money for a charity, so that was a 1470 01:22:23.170 --> 01:22:26.510 noble cause. So I don't regret that, but... Yeah, absolutely. 1471 01:22:26.529 --> 01:22:29.949 It taught me so much in terms of like being more, 1472 01:22:30.050 --> 01:22:32.409 having to be more mindful when I do the thing, 1473 01:22:32.689 --> 01:22:35.770 but mainly before I commit to something because I also 1474 01:22:35.810 --> 01:22:37.569 took the marathon on when I had way too much 1475 01:22:37.630 --> 01:22:40.430 going on in my life. So instantly I didn't, I 1476 01:22:40.470 --> 01:22:44.750 wasn't even giving myself the time to enjoy it. So again, 1477 01:22:44.770 --> 01:22:47.189 but you know, no failure. There's only feedback and I 1478 01:22:47.229 --> 01:22:50.229 learned a hell of a lot from that experience. Mainly 1479 01:22:50.270 --> 01:22:50.750 never to. 1480 01:22:50.710 --> 01:22:55.789 Do a marathon. I hope your next one is enjoyable. Yeah. 1481 01:22:56.210 --> 01:23:00.729 Well, you never know. I might do another one one day. Yeah, 1482 01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:03.319 I mean, a marathon is so difficult, though, not to 1483 01:23:03.359 --> 01:23:05.029 put anyone off. Have you done one? 1484 01:23:05.039 --> 01:23:08.640 It's really far. It's really far. So I have a 1485 01:23:08.680 --> 01:23:11.899 book on my website, on the book section on my

website. 1486 01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:15.239 I have a little bookshelf of recommended books. And so 1487 01:23:15.340 --> 01:23:18.979 one book that I often recommend to people is called 1488 01:23:19.189 --> 01:23:21.729 Eat and Run. And I think I'm going to get 1489 01:23:21.770 --> 01:23:24.880 the author's name wrong. I think it's Scott Urich. But 1490 01:23:24.920 --> 01:23:30.199 it's there on markfreeman.ca. And it's a book written by 1491 01:23:30.239 --> 01:23:33.979 an ultra marathon runner. So he only runs like these 1492 01:23:34.000 --> 01:23:40.449 100-mile races. And there's so much we can learn when 1493 01:23:40.470 --> 01:23:43.810 you're doing any kind of process of personal change from 1494 01:23:43.869 --> 01:23:45.970 what it takes for a person to do that. Because 1495 01:23:46.409 --> 01:23:52.539 just running a marathon is so difficult. And there are 1496 01:23:52.560 --> 01:23:54.600 these group of people who run these ultra marathons. 1497 01:23:55.060 --> 01:23:55.229 Yeah. 1498 01:23:55.970 --> 01:23:58.050 It's, it's such a, and so it seems like it's 1499 01:23:58.069 --> 01:24:00.869 just about running and, and also, uh, you know, there's 1500 01:24:00.890 --> 01:24:03.670 a lot of recipes in it and stuff like that. Uh, 1501 01:24:03.810 --> 01:24:07.109 but just learning how to do something like that offers. 1502 01:24:07.130 --> 01:24:09.250 So I'd say to anybody, yeah, there's so, cause at 1503 01:24:09.289 --> 01:24:11.850 the end of the day, this process of recovery is 1504 01:24:11.890 --> 01:24:18.060 just a process of personal change. And, um, And we 1505 01:24:18.090 --> 01:24:21.869 can either enjoy it or not, too. But even learning 1506 01:24:21.909 --> 01:24:28.590 how to enjoy the challenges of overcoming mental illness is 1507 01:24:28.609 --> 01:24:35.050 a challenge unto itself. Because it's strenuous, it's excruciating, you 1508 01:24:35.069 --> 01:24:38.890 get hurt, it seems impossible, it seems weird. You are 1509 01:24:39.090 --> 01:24:42.649 as alone as an ultramarathon runner. You are out there 1510 01:24:43.149 --> 01:24:47.710 going through this grueling journey all alone, You're thirsty. You 1511 01:24:47.949 --> 01:24:51.680 haven't eaten. No one's going to understand it. And you 1512 01:24:51.699 --> 01:24:54.039 have to change everything in your life to support it. 1513 01:24:55.880 --> 01:24:59.260 So yeah, if you're on the ultra marathon of recovery 1514 01:24:59.279 --> 01:25:02.270 from mental illness, it can be useful to learn from 1515 01:25:02.449 --> 01:25:06.550 how an ultra marathon runner supports that or anybody doing 1516 01:25:06.609 --> 01:25:10.449 something that seems like a really difficult personal change because 1517 01:25:10.489 --> 01:25:14.569 you really are doing that too. I think it's so 1518 01:25:14.640 --> 01:25:17.390 useful to recognize that. when we're going through that process 1519 01:25:17.409 --> 01:25:21.550 of recovery yeah it's not normal it is really

unusual 1520 01:25:21.630 --> 01:25:30.449 to take care of your mental health surprisingly unusual unfortunately. 1521 01:25:30.199 --> 01:25:33.180 Yeah that's true but I don't think that's anyone's fault 1522 01:25:33.319 --> 01:25:37.239 other than maybe the school curriculums at least in the 1523 01:25:37.359 --> 01:25:40.880 UK education hasn't caught up with teaching kids to take 1524 01:25:40.920 --> 01:25:44.229 care of their mental health generally speaking mental health not 1525 01:25:44.390 --> 01:25:49.970 diagnosable mental health yeah okay cool so you've got a 1526 01:25:49.989 --> 01:25:54.989 billboard you can have anything written on it or picture 1527 01:25:55.399 --> 01:25:56.199 what would you have on. 1528 01:25:56.180 --> 01:26:02.340 It I would put on it make peace with death. 1529 01:26:04.979 --> 01:26:05.260 Why I. 1530 01:26:07.220 --> 01:26:11.720 Think at the end of the day we our inability 1531 01:26:11.760 --> 01:26:16.180 to accept death our inability to talk about death To 1532 01:26:16.239 --> 01:26:21.850 handle it, to recognize that we will die so often 1533 01:26:22.060 --> 01:26:26.649 fuels so many of the anxieties we struggle with. Yeah. 1534 01:26:26.670 --> 01:26:32.529 And in order to overcome those compulsions, you will inevitably 1535 01:26:32.630 --> 01:26:36.760 come up face to face, probably giving it a hug 1536 01:26:38.039 --> 01:26:43.079 with death. There's no way around that. Your beliefs around 1537 01:26:43.100 --> 01:26:45.319 death are probably going to have to change a lot. Yeah. 1538 01:26:46.260 --> 01:26:49.149 And it's where you start to see some of the 1539 01:26:49.210 --> 01:26:52.369 choices with mental health challenges. If you hold on to, 1540 01:26:52.510 --> 01:26:54.609 if you want to choose to hold on to those 1541 01:26:54.649 --> 01:26:58.350 beliefs about death, you're also choosing to hold on to 1542 01:26:58.449 --> 01:27:02.659 your anxieties about getting sick, about losing out on the 1543 01:27:02.699 --> 01:27:05.560 things you want to do in life, about death, about 1544 01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:09.939 being alone forever. If you hold on to any religious 1545 01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:12.819 beliefs about all the things that might go along with that. 1546 01:27:14.649 --> 01:27:16.850 And so on that journey, I find this is one 1547 01:27:16.869 --> 01:27:20.399 of those things that everybody tends to be able to 1548 01:27:20.460 --> 01:27:23.760 identify with. You're going to be able to live your 1549 01:27:23.859 --> 01:27:28.600 life so much better if you can get comfortable with death. 1550 01:27:29.680 --> 01:27:33.079 Because if you're living your life as an attempt to 1551 01:27:33.140 --> 01:27:37.319 avoid death, you'll just die. That's the end result of that. 1552 01:27:37.359 --> 01:27:39.850 So you spend your life trying to avoid death and 1553 01:27:39.869 --> 01:27:42.189 then you die. So you don't really get to live 1554 01:27:42.210 --> 01:27:42.489 your life. 1555 01:27:42.850 --> 01:27:45.319 You can't avoid it, can you? 1556 01:27:45.659 --> 01:27:49.100 You are going to die. Yeah. And so we need 1557 01:27:49.239 --> 01:27:51.619 to get comfortable with that. And what that does, though, 1558 01:27:51.659 --> 01:27:53.100 that really does for you to live. 1559 01:27:54.020 --> 01:27:54.220 Yes. 1560 01:27:54.260 --> 01:27:58.630 Because, again, when we talk about being reactive, you become 1561 01:27:58.710 --> 01:28:00.930 free to live your life instead of death running your life. 1562 01:28:02.750 --> 01:28:05.449 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You get to enjoy the days you 1563 01:28:05.489 --> 01:28:10.020 have as opposed to that one day in your thousands 1564 01:28:10.060 --> 01:28:15.340 of days of life. But yeah, again, I guess awareness bandwidth, 1565 01:28:15.579 --> 01:28:17.920 you know, that the one day takes up so much 1566 01:28:17.960 --> 01:28:20.100 of your awareness that you forget the thousands of other 1567 01:28:20.140 --> 01:28:24.100 days that you've been gifted. It's weird, the other podcast 1568 01:28:24.149 --> 01:28:27.189 in the last sort of 20 episodes, I think death's 1569 01:28:27.229 --> 01:28:31.010 come up like four times without me prompting it. And 1570 01:28:31.050 --> 01:28:33.369 it never did in my earlier episodes. So that's, I 1571 01:28:33.989 --> 01:28:36.409 don't know if that's like a consciousness shift that's going on, 1572 01:28:37.130 --> 01:28:39.649 but it's something that I've definitely worked on the last 1573 01:28:39.689 --> 01:28:41.800 sort of year. I've been trying to be more mindful 1574 01:28:41.819 --> 01:28:46.340 of death, facing it. And at times it still scares me, 1575 01:28:46.380 --> 01:28:48.840 but other times I'm happy, or not happy with it, 1576 01:28:48.920 --> 01:28:52.600 I'm over okay with it. But something that also, my 1577 01:28:52.659 --> 01:28:55.970 belief changes around what happens after death. You know, I 1578 01:28:56.010 --> 01:29:00.210 grew up in sort of a Christian country, so to speak. 1579 01:29:00.680 --> 01:29:03.260 But definitely it was hammered into me in primary school. 1580 01:29:04.140 --> 01:29:08.170 And my beliefs have changed from heaven and hell, which 1581 01:29:08.229 --> 01:29:10.750 is obviously quite a scary idea for deaf, especially if 1582 01:29:10.770 --> 01:29:14.010 you don't think you've been a good person or you've 1583 01:29:14.109 --> 01:29:18.989 done certain things. Whereas now I look at deaf kind 1584 01:29:19.029 --> 01:29:21.560 of like Alan Watts, the philosopher, says. It's kind of 1585 01:29:21.579 --> 01:29:24.600 just a circle. So as soon as you die, you 1586 01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:27.180 just get reborn, whether that's as another human being or 1587 01:29:27.220 --> 01:29:30.279 something else. But now, because that's more of my belief, 1588 01:29:30.890 --> 01:29:33.430 When something goes wrong in my life or I don't 1589 01:29:33.510 --> 01:29:36.479 make the right

decision, I can quickly just say, oh, well, 1590 01:29:36.489 --> 01:29:41.060 there's always next life. It's a flippant comment, but it 1591 01:29:41.100 --> 01:29:44.180 makes me laugh and it can kind of take away 1592 01:29:44.220 --> 01:29:47.439 the seriousness of life and decisions because, oh, well, there's 1593 01:29:47.479 --> 01:29:50.300 always next time or whatever. 1594 01:29:51.319 --> 01:29:52.770 It's like getting good at failure again. 1595 01:29:53.119 --> 01:29:54.010 Yeah, absolutely. 1596 01:29:54.310 --> 01:29:57.250 Yeah, get good at failing at life. Yeah. 1597 01:29:57.529 --> 01:30:00.550 Yeah, absolutely. If enlightenment is the end goal, then I'll 1598 01:30:00.569 --> 01:30:03.710 keep failing until I get there. But there's no pressure 1599 01:30:03.850 --> 01:30:09.569 to get it right in this lifetime. I will try, though. But, yeah, 1600 01:30:09.890 --> 01:30:10.229 it helps. 1601 01:30:11.100 --> 01:30:15.840 Get comfortable with that. Give it a big hug. Grope 1602 01:30:15.880 --> 01:30:20.199 it a little. Absolutely. Wish it well. 1603 01:30:22.159 --> 01:30:25.770 Send it on its way. thank you as always it's 1604 01:30:25.829 --> 01:30:29.229 been some great advice and I'm sure people will appreciate 1605 01:30:29.250 --> 01:30:31.880 it again they always do the episodes with you. 1606 01:30:33.180 --> 01:30:37.659 I hope it's I hope everybody doing this difficult work 1607 01:30:38.060 --> 01:30:44.909 running these ultra marathons are enjoying the process this is 1608 01:30:44.970 --> 01:30:48.989 challenging but it's so great that we're able to talk 1609 01:30:49.029 --> 01:30:51.489 about this stuff now and we're able to talk about 1610 01:30:51.510 --> 01:30:56.739 it from our perspectives of having gone through it right 1611 01:30:56.779 --> 01:30:59.279 these conversations i was thinking about that actually when i 1612 01:30:59.279 --> 01:31:01.750 was reading the book uh like the ocd stories book 1613 01:31:02.569 --> 01:31:04.289 and you know that we have this podcast now we 1614 01:31:04.310 --> 01:31:07.430 have these communities and we have things like everybody has 1615 01:31:07.470 --> 01:31:11.029 a brain or even the fact that you know i 1616 01:31:11.069 --> 01:31:16.140 can get a book published right like not uh i 1617 01:31:16.159 --> 01:31:19.890 think it's such a neat shift in that, right, this 1618 01:31:19.949 --> 01:31:23.909 is published. So by Piatkis in the UK, that's an 1619 01:31:23.949 --> 01:31:28.270 imprint of Little Brown and Co. That's an imprint of 1620 01:31:28.340 --> 01:31:31.739 Hachette Group. This is a, you know, a very, very 1621 01:31:31.779 --> 01:31:34.979 large company. There was a time when a person with 1622 01:31:35.039 --> 01:31:38.699 lived experience of mental illness, you know, could not get 1623 01:31:38.739 --> 01:31:41.560 a book published. That was just not something that happened. 1624 01:31:41.590 --> 01:31:45.210 If somebody with lived experience of like

a serious mental 1625 01:31:45.229 --> 01:31:47.329 illness was writing a book, it was going to be like, 1626 01:31:47.369 --> 01:31:49.689 you know, some kind of hand printed leaflet or something. 1627 01:31:49.710 --> 01:31:51.470 That was the only way to get the story out there. 1628 01:31:52.569 --> 01:31:56.529 And now, you know, we can create communities to help people. 1629 01:31:56.979 --> 01:32:00.220 We can get books published and we can really get 1630 01:32:00.840 --> 01:32:03.880 these skills out there and talk about these experiences. And 1631 01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:07.779 that is just amazing. Like that has not happened before 1632 01:32:08.739 --> 01:32:13.229 in the history of, you know, mental illness. and people 1633 01:32:13.270 --> 01:32:17.270 going through these experiences. So yeah, so it's great, yeah, 1634 01:32:17.289 --> 01:32:19.569 to everybody out there going through this and talking about 1635 01:32:19.590 --> 01:32:23.899 these experiences and building this community. This is a really 1636 01:32:23.939 --> 01:32:27.779 exciting time. And it's really neat that we can all 1637 01:32:27.800 --> 01:32:28.560 do this together. 1638 01:32:29.359 --> 01:32:33.159 Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And I think that's, I 1639 01:32:33.180 --> 01:32:35.920 think especially when you're struggling with mental health, it's sometimes 1640 01:32:35.979 --> 01:32:39.220 hard to be grateful for anything, even though everyone has 1641 01:32:39.239 --> 01:32:41.640 something to be grateful for, even if it's just blue 1642 01:32:41.699 --> 01:32:44.720 skies occasionally. And that's not often in my country, but 1643 01:32:44.810 --> 01:32:49.699 it does happen. And that's the thing. It's like, if 1644 01:32:49.739 --> 01:32:51.399 you feel you have nothing else to be grateful, be 1645 01:32:51.460 --> 01:32:54.119 grateful for that. You weren't born 200 years ago when 1646 01:32:54.359 --> 01:32:56.699 if you even mentioned an intrusive thought, you probably would 1647 01:32:56.720 --> 01:32:58.640 have been hanged. I'm making that up. I don't know 1648 01:32:58.659 --> 01:33:01.039 if that's true, but you definitely wouldn't have been treated 1649 01:33:01.100 --> 01:33:02.859 as well as you are now. And you wouldn't have 1650 01:33:02.880 --> 01:33:07.739 had as many resources, free resources as well. You know, 1651 01:33:07.779 --> 01:33:10.720 everything you do on your YouTube channel, on this podcast, 1652 01:33:10.739 --> 01:33:15.279 we don't charge for those things. And yeah, I think 1653 01:33:15.340 --> 01:33:16.819 it's a good time to be alive. 1654 01:33:18.220 --> 01:33:20.439 Yeah, it's a good time. It's great that we're finally 1655 01:33:20.479 --> 01:33:25.909 seeing a shift on mental health. Yeah. And so hopefully, yeah, 1656 01:33:26.489 --> 01:33:28.909 people in the future, you know, 10 years from now, 1657 01:33:29.050 --> 01:33:32.069 people growing up 20 years from now, will really think 1658 01:33:32.130 --> 01:33:34.090 we were in the dark ages in terms of how 1659 01:33:34.130 --> 01:33:36.640 we approached mental health, how we treated it, you know, 1660 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:38.039 because we are still at the point where we kind 1661 01:33:38.060 --> 01:33:39.840 of see it as like, oh, there are these people 1662 01:33:39.880 --> 01:33:42.689 who have mental illnesses. And, you know, we're really going 1663 01:33:42.710 --> 01:33:45.470 through this revolution where we recognize, you know, everybody has 1664 01:33:45.510 --> 01:33:48.750 mental health. We can start to prevent these challenges from 1665 01:33:48.789 --> 01:33:51.029 happening in the first place. And so we're going to 1666 01:33:51.050 --> 01:33:53.470 see a lot of amazing transformations in the coming years. 1667 01:33:53.789 --> 01:33:55.869 Yeah, absolutely. So I hope you enjoyed my chat with Mark. 1668 01:33:56.529 --> 01:33:59.229 I certainly did. And don't forget, you can get that 1669 01:33:59.340 --> 01:34:04.079 free trial and audio ball by going to theocdstories.com backslash podcast, 1670 01:34:04.119 --> 01:34:07.600 where you'll be able to download Mark's audio book for free. 1671 01:34:08.220 --> 01:34:10.279 Don't forget to cancel within the 30 days so you 1672 01:34:10.300 --> 01:34:12.420 won't be charged. And if you're in the UK, you 1673 01:34:12.439 --> 01:34:15.020 can buy the print book. You can also buy it 1674 01:34:15.239 --> 01:34:18.609 worldwide via Amazon UK, but obviously you've got to pay postage. 1675 01:34:19.449 --> 01:34:21.289 And it will be out around the world and also 1676 01:34:21.350 --> 01:34:26.260 in different languages in the coming 12 months. So thank 1677 01:34:26.279 --> 01:34:28.180 you as always, and I will speak to you soon.