Full Transcript for Multiple Choice, Pt. 2 — Everything Everywhere All At Once

well in terms of like the general to the place. In any case, it was I would say, you know, from this just random audience, which was quite robust. The film did well, and it was it was pretty very crowded for a Sunday night at the Landmark Theater of the Damned. I don't know if I've experienced quite a reaction to a new movie like that out in the in the wild since since maybe like Being John Malkovich. The critics screening of Being John Malkovich was is what I always remember as being just of just completely you know, of an original film just completely busting up and everything everywhere all at once, has that quality of just of constant surprise, of great boisterous comedy and wild ideas, and you know, it's just you know, I mean, I don't know. It is not the most refined a vision. I think. I think you have to kind of accept that it is going to be a little all over the place, that it's going to be kind of throwing a lot of punches. There's some wobbliness in the pacing, and I think a certain amount of almost kind of a narrowing towards a semi trite, I would say conclusion, though not wholly trite. There's also a lot of lovely things about the way it ends too. I don't know, there's it's just a ton of movie to unpack and one that I feel so woefully ill equipped to talk about after only seeing it once. So I was really happy with this film. What would do you think, Keith? 00:07:23 Speaker 3: I think it's great. I delighted and seeing it. I gave it four stars of the review, and I kind of wonder if maybe I underrated it. Even that said, I think everything you point out it is it's in some ways a wearying experience. I mean, it's just so much. It's everywhere, everything, everywhere, all at once. It's it's, uh, you know, one idea thrown out you after another, you know, one timeline, jumping from one timeline to the next. You know it is. It is a long film, and I almost kind of wonder if it would have been even more effective, it have been tightened up a little bit. Whatever. Well, these are minor complaints against just as really joyously imaginative and I think thoughtful vision and I think I don't try it to the right word. It does kind of narrow down to all these big questions and all the you know, the multiverse and all the philosophical issues being raised for the film kind of pushed aside to you know, I don't want to say just say the love is the answer, but there's something to that, but it does in a really meaningful way. I don't know. I'm looking forward to seeing it again. Too much to process in one viewing, but I did enjoy the one viewing I had. 00:08:26 Speaker 5: Yeah, I was really curious how it was going to play for me on the second viewing, because I was a little afraid that it, being so much based in surprises and reveals and new information and constant unfolding, that it would dull a little on second viewing. But if anything, I thought it was even more fun the second time through, in part because I got to see it with an audience the second time through, and like that, just like listening to their response, feeling their response. This is a movie that goes with just like break andeck speed from some very silly visual gag to very serious, heavy philosophical moments and then right back again on numerous occasions. But I'm thinking of one in particular, where I got to hear an entire theater bust up laughing and then go dead silent, and then bust up laughing again. A second later, and I just I love that response. But the whole movie is like that. I think it's fascinating the degree to which this movie sparks a kind of like a whiplash response without ever feeling, for me at least, like that problem that we talk about in terms of tonal whiplash. Like these things don't fit together. This is a movie that just wants to have its cake and eat it too, in a thousand different dimensions, a thousand different kinds of cake. And yet for me, it all fits together just like so neatly, so thoughtfully, with so much care. You know, there's big, stupid, crass jokes and a guy in a martial arts fight with no pants on and his chin little area blurred out, desperately trying to stick something up his butt for reasons. And then there's also just like, you know, the philosophy of the existence of humanity and why human connection makes it meaningful, you know, and in the same film, and yet it all worked for me. I think this one was masterful. I think it would take a miracle for this not to end up being my favorite film of the year. 00:10:25 Speaker 6: Oh wow, So it's that it's that level. Okay, Yeah, No, I can see potentially having that reaction to seeing it a second time, just so you know, because now I kind of know what to expect, though I will miss experiencing some of those moments for the first time and being surprised for them. You know, you could only experience Raccoon Twey the first time once, you know, and you could only experience the genital fight scene. You only experience the Fannie Pack fight scene, which is just maybe my favorite sequence of the whole film in terms of just filmmaking. You can only experience that for once. But I do think there's a lot to sort out here too, and you see it in the I've seen people have such a personal reaction to it. I don't know if you all read Walter Chaw's review of it, you know, it was one that the one of the directors had kind of cited on Twitter as being one that was meaningful to him. But Walter wrote quite a bit about his own story. It was a very very personal piece about his own history as the child of Chinese American you know, immigrants, and his estrangement from his parents and all that stuff kind of came into play, you know, into this, you know, sort of essayistic review and you just see you feel like like it's a film that you know deserves you know, or review of that kind, and is the type of film that would evoke those kinds of emotions in the audience, particularly a specific you know, sector of an honors that might identify it even

with it, you know, you know more more than any of us might. 00:12:05 Speaker 5: I think, in keeping with the the movies, just like immense grab bag of different selections of stuff. It's a story that can be appreciated for its specificity as an immigrant story and I just appreciated in a very universal way as a story about failed potential and disappointments. Evelyn. One of the things that Evelyn is navigating is that she kind of ran away to America. I'm assuming America. I'm not sure. We get a very specific time and place. 00:12:35 Speaker 3: It's Chicago? 00:12:36 Speaker 4: Is it Chicago? 00:12:37 Speaker 3: I definitely? Just like I thought, just doesn't walk in Chicago? 00:12:43 Speaker 1: I know. 00:12:44 Speaker 5: But okay, are we positive that they didn't somehow like jury rig the digital prints? So just whatever city you're in, that's the city that they came and lived in. 00:12:53 Speaker 6: That's going to be like, isn't it. You're inventing something that's going to actually happen. They're going to start localizing back drops of movies. 00:13:01 Speaker 5: I regret to tell you that some aspect of that has already happened with specifically with product placement, like localizing product placement for different. 00:13:10 Speaker 6: Digital cobies less something less depressing. 00:13:12 Speaker 3: But I want to talk about how in Dayton, Ohio, there was an edit we built the city that took out the references to San Francisco and edited in references to Dayton, Ohio. And I can't imagine this is the only radio market that did. 00:13:25 Speaker 6: That, oh. 00:13:27 Speaker 3: Years ahead of its time. Yeah, there we go. 00:13:30 Speaker 5: So but my point being that you can appreciate this for for like, very specific messages about what it's like to be like a small business owner, first generation immigrant who thought the land of opportunity was going to be different, who thought like your romance with a certain person was going to be different, who's navigating like parental disappointment from people who expected to be more respected and to have more control of your life than they ended up having. But you can also just take it as like a big universal story about you know, parents and children, about the way parents mess children up without meaning to, about the difficulty of emotionally connectsing in a meaningful way with children when they're in that period, you know, past adolescent rebellion and on into their their own people now, like what is your place regarding them? They're just It strikes me as there being a whole lot of messages here about the choices we make and the choices that we have to drop along the way. The fact that Evelyn is in some ways like the most powerful multiverse traveler there is, specifically because she's failed at so many things. I think it's just like a brilliant little piece of philosophy there. It's explained why it makes sense within the you know, the science fiction of the movie. But the message there is like you in the audience, who may feel like a failure for the things you haven't done, those failures just make you even more powerful. Like that's a that's a pretty kind message. 00:15:02 Speaker 6: I think, yeah, yeah, And maybe I don't know's there's something about this and maybe the fact that the Russo brothers are involved in producing it, there's something. It almost feels like some sort of reverse engineered version of a Marvel movie or you're trying to like somehow a gateway from the multiplex back into the art house or something that's been designed here. Maybe that maybe that's it of just like you know it, having this, you know, making someone special for the things that they haven't been able to accomplish, that they for their their failure. I mean, that's that's the opposite of Marvel film. Marvel film is about characters who just who discover that they have these incredible gifts that nobody else has. And so this is this also, this whole thing feels like some weird mirror image of that. 00:15:53 Speaker 3: I forget. Is this the one where Michael Keaton shows up as the Vulture or is that a different movie we saw? 00:16:02 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a good one. 00:16:04 Speaker 5: So while you're while you're making little sarcastic like film references, I want to just kind of take a moment to recognize how many movies this movie references. You know, there's the rakatoony joke, very extended joke that you mentioned, but there's also you know, this a movie that visually quotes two thousand and one of Space Odyssey in a couple of different sequences, one of which is about the formation of an entire kind of like side universe where people have hot dog hands, it's the you know, the big cosmic flash of her multiverse life at the end is also meant to be a direct representation of two thousand and one of Space Odyssey. But this is also a movie that has lines that are effectively very slight shades on I Know Kung Fu and come with me if you want to live. There's the Giant Bagel is basically a Douglas Adams motif kind of thing. The Daniel came to Chicago for screenings and Q and A's and I moderated one at Chicago's River Eased Theater and I had a chance to kind of talk to them, like out in the hallway beforehand, and one of the things they talked about was the earliest version of this movie had a lot more kind of quoting of Charlie Kauffman specifically as a director. There are a lot of influences and a lot of references as well. 00:17:26 Speaker 6: There's a whole very much a one car Why version of this timeline or whatever in this film too. 00:17:33 Speaker 5: So I asked them specifically if it was in the mood for love, and they said it's it's not. It's meant to be just one car Why. In general, because I had that same I had the same response. 00:17:44 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean Happy Together could be that way. 00:17:47 Speaker 5: Yeah, they said if they, if you ask their cinematographer, they'll get very defensive about how like, no, no,

the lighting and the coloration is completely different. It's not just that one movie. Yes, it is unquestionably a one R Y universe essentially. 00:18:02 Speaker 6: Yeah, right, I mean Wyman has that kind of that tone of the young, elegant look and those sequences that he super does not have the rest of the time. 00:18:12 Speaker 3: I think the Kaufin influence has still really felt, though I kind of in some ways it sometimes played to me is kind of a rebuke in some ways of Kaufman's more recent films, which are kind of you know, dropped you know, ultimately, you know, filled with the same dark humor and playfulness, but ultimately about just dropping viewers into the abyss and then roll into credits, Whereas I feel like this is a film that really wants to walk you right up to the edge of the abyss and then and then pull you back. I mean almost literally in the whole Bagel thing. But I don't know, it felt like, you know, a film I wanted to acknowledge some of the same, you know, dark absurdities as Charlie Kaufman, but not go there, or at least go to maybe go to a different place than Coffin's more recent films have gone. 00:19:00 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's for certain. I think one of the things you can absolutely say about the Daniels' filmmakers is that they're deeply humanistic and they like outrageous comedy. They like subversive, like over the top comedy, they like scatological comedy. But they also just have these these big messages that they want to get across, and they're very idealistic, humanistic messages. I want to talk a little bit more about that, but first we should take a break, so we'll be back right after. 00:19:28 Speaker 4: This Tomorrow morning. Is knocking stock your fridge? 00:19:36 Speaker 6: Now? 00:19:36 Speaker 4: How about a creamy mocha Frappe China drink or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe or a white chocolate mocha, whichever you choose, Delicious coffee wits, find Starbucks, Rappacino drinks, wherever you buy your groceries. 00:19:50 Speaker 8: I cannot talk about it. 00:19:53 Speaker 3: Unless you can help me with my taxes. 00:19:55 Speaker 4: What is gross necklaces? I know you have a lot of things do you mind? 00:19:59 Speaker 7: But nothing could postfully madical in this conversation I haven't right now concerning the faith of every single world about infinite multiverse. 00:20:06 Speaker 3: The respect. 00:20:11 Speaker 8: My dear Evelyn. 00:20:13 Speaker 7: I know you with every passing moment you feel you might have mischuggest make something of your life. I'm here to tell you every rejection, every disappointment has led you here to this moment. 00:20:30 Speaker 8: Don't let anything. 00:20:31 Speaker 7: Distract you from it. 00:20:32 Speaker 5: Looking at Shinna and Kwan as filmmaking partners over the course of the years that I've been tracking them, since I first met them at TRIBECCO with kind of some experimental projects they were doing, I just I see the same things coming up over and over again, like the ideas of possibility and just the difficulty of being human but the importance of sticking with it. Did you guys see Swiss Army Man? 00:20:57 Speaker 6: Oh? 00:20:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't yet. I definitely I meant to. I meant to, and I'm more enthusiaved to watch it now. 00:21:04 Speaker 5: Scott, what's your what's your take on that movie? 00:21:07 Speaker 6: I liked it. I think it's I mean, I think there's some you know it is It's audacious and like I mean and again it has you know, it goes really far on the limb, which is which is what this one does as well. I don't think it seems narrower in ambition, and maybe a little bit more of a limited premise. I guess that one feels almost like a throat clearing for this film, don't you think? Or are you no? 00:21:33 Speaker 5: I absolutely agree with you there For those who haven't seen it, Swiss Army Man has Paul Dano being washed up on a remote island and he has nothing to survive with except the corpse of Daniel Radcliffe, which he comes to find out can be used as a tool in a wide variety of ways. 00:21:52 Speaker 6: How does it move though? 00:21:53 Speaker 5: How do you get water as a surfboard? Because his decomposing body expels so much flatulence that he's basically his own outboard motor. So Paul Dano and the corpse of Daniel Radcliffe form a fast friendship and have wacky adventures. And it's very much a parody of kind of a specific type of twee indie movie, but just with like the outrageousness level cranked up to fifty. Yeah, but this in the end kind of the same humanistic messages you know, the same ideas about like human connection and supporting and caring about each other that some of those twee indie movies might have. It just comes from a. 00:22:35 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm saying, it's like, it's not that distance from a quirky indie movie. 00:22:39 Speaker 2: It is. 00:22:40 Speaker 6: It is very much that. But you're right. I think you're right about their perspective on the world is extremely optimistic. 00:22:47 Speaker 5: I would say, I would say more hard one optimistic. I would say coming from a place of acknowledging, acknowledging the darkness, like everything everywhere, all once, I think is a very dark movie in a lot of ways. 00:23:00 Speaker 6: Like kind of it's what it's about kind of coming out of it, and there's a lot of reconciliation and you know, there's good feelings. I think it's it. 00:23:07 Speaker 3: Takes a while to get there though, and also also posits that these familiar riffs that feel like they can destroy a universe actually could, which I think it's kind of a net a need touch. 00:23:20 Speaker 5: I saw very early in the film, when the concept of the multi dimensional evil was revealed, it was just very clear to me that it was going to be her daughter, and I thought I was far ahead of the film and that we were going to spend an hour plus teasing that, which feels like the way a Marvel movie would have done it, and instead we find out, like I

don't know what, feels like maybe three or four minutes later, the film is like, Okay, you're smart, you figured this out. Let's just do it and see what falls out from it. And that's one of the things I love about the Daniels as filmmakers is they trust to the audience so much to pick up on all of these tiny little storytelling grace notes that aren't explained, that aren't spelled out, where you just you see somebody do something and it's significant, but they don't like bother to tell you, hey, by the way, pay attention to this is important. They don't presume that you can't see these things coming up either. They assume that you're there and you just kind of want to move on with the story, and that you can also just take in everything everywhere all at once. So one of the many, many reasons I love this movie is just like it operates like very few movies do. I think Scott Pilgrim Versus the World maybe is one being John Macovich might be another that like operate a breakneck speed but just completely trust the audience to keep up. 00:24:42 Speaker 6: Yeah. I was pleased for that trust as I was struggling to keep up. So, you know, though I did like that it didn't feel like work though, I felt, you know, mentally, like I was really hustling because because it was just exploding in all different directions that at once, and it's just it's hard to you know, know the rules I suppose of a multi verse like this when those rules appear to be getting written and rewritten, you know, at every moment. But I think that that's exciting. 00:25:16 Speaker 3: It's a little like inception, where you have one scene explaining how everything works, then three more scenes complicating what you've already learned, you. 00:25:24 Speaker 5: Know, yeah exactly. And in terms of like a film just kind of completely rewriting the rules of reality and then immediately running to play in that sandbox, I think it's pretty mind blowing that sense. Going back to that idea of tiny details, I called this one out in my review because I just I loved it so much as like a tiny little moment that doesn't get commented on. I've un starter joy if she wants to introduce her grandfather, Gongong, who's played by James Hong, a man of literally five hundred movies, going back to before the dawn of cinema itself. She wants to introduce her grandfather to the idea that she is a lesbian and that she has a girlfriend, and her mother, Evelyn, does not want her to do that because she's afraid that it will upset grandfather. And when she goes to try to do it anyway, there's a moment where the two of them are talking and she reaches over and grabs her girlfriend's sleeves and rolls them down to cover her wrist tattoos. You know, she's got some pretty nice ink on her, and it's just very clear in that moment that, even though they're not talking about it, one of the things Joy is doing is like looking at her girlfriend Becky and thinking, this is something else he's going to judge. This is something

else about you that we need to hide, And it's not underlined. It's just this moment of clear anxiety and seeing a bad future and trying to avert it, but also like an act of self abdignation, like self destruction, because Joy has tattoos, herself that she hides and is going to continue to from her family. I'm wondering if there's anything in the movie that that you guys saw that you had that kind of level of respect for, as like a storytelling note or a character moment. 00:27:11 Speaker 3: I'm just thinking about hot dog fingers. I'm sorry that a really it's a really good question, but I'm just thinking about hot dog fingers. 00:27:18 Speaker 5: I can't believe that the trailers give away the hot dog fingers. Like I avoided trailers for this like crazy, and it was a complete surprise for me in the theater and when I when I saw a trailer afterwards, I was like, Nope, that's all over the place. 00:27:31 Speaker 6: I could watch an entire movie with the rocks. I could like it just just yea, an entire thing with the with the rocks that wash, that touch that really delighted me. But in terms of like subtle touches, maybe that's maybe that's where the second viewing part kind of comes in, Tasha, because I felt like I'm just barely able to kind of like take in this movie. On one viewing, I did notice the thing that you talked about, and I think it kind of speaks to something that again that that Walter had written about in this review is just just the relationship between different generations within an immigrant family, about the disappointment and resentment and disconnect from one generation to the next. Feeling from Evelyn's you know, an Evelyn's part that she's you know, the joy has kind of lost to her, that lot that she's kind of you know, not that she's the country that she's she's gone to has has taken joy, you know away. Basically, it's all that's there too, that these sort of intergenerational tensions that are tied specifically to you know, kind of the immigrant experience and too, you know, assimilation and that sort of thing. 00:28:48 Speaker 5: One of the big aspects of that immigrant experience is Evelyn's husband, Wayman, played by Ki Kwan, who longtime film watchers will remember is Round in Indiana, Jones two, and Data in the Goonies. He's kind of been in and out of films, like doing behind the scenes stuff. He was an assistant director on Wankarwise twenty forty six, for instance. But I just I found him to be like a revelation here. He's pretty amazing carrying the emotional heart of this movie doing some some pretty fun character work, some pretty fun snut work, and just some some really interesting code switching in a lot of different situations. 00:29:32 Speaker 6: Well, I think he was able to kind of evoke what we knew about him as an actor before. 00:29:38 Speaker 3: You know. 00:29:38 Speaker 6: I mean, there is kind of that ingratiating, silly, goofy quality that he brought to the to Jones at the Tuble of Doom and to the Goonies that's certainly present and are kind of dorky fanny pack wearing, you know, in effectual wayman, But there's so much more dimension to this character and so many different looks that he's able to give us. And also he just feels like, in a way, kind of the heart of the movie, even though obviously Michelle Yo and Evelyn, I mean, she's she is the protagonist, but there's so much he feels like, such a guiding force for all that is kind of good and warm and decent and yeah in this in this movie, you know, and then he can give you just moments of just silliness. He's a very he's a dad, he's a very much a movie dad. 00:30:23 Speaker 3: And someone else pointed someone else pointed out his voice still kind of sounds the same too. You know, he's deepened a little, but it still has the same inflections as when he was a kid. 00:30:34 Speaker 5: Oliver our four like major players here, Michelle Yo, Stephanie's Who as her daughter, Joy James Hong as her father. All four of them are given these roles where they have to change personalities and like physical presences and affects, body language, facial expression, just like over and over, like different forms of code switching and behavior switching. It's a very demanding movie for ag and I think all four of them are fantastic. I think all four of them are a lot of fun. 00:31:05 Speaker 6: Yeah, as you said, the premise kind of allows them to give you so many different looks and and also you know, I you know, I include Jamie Lee Curtis among that group two. I mean, she's not part of that family. But that's a very surprising, you know, and fun and in the end quite heartfelt performance as well. 00:31:23 Speaker 3: How do you even say it is possible to watch the entire film and not know as Jamie Lee Curtis? Yeah, very possible. Yeah what if your panelists here might have actually done that? Is that right? 00:31:36 Speaker 6: Wow? 00:31:36 Speaker 3: Yeah? But yeah, yeah, you're better than I the voice was is I don't know. They put it out a lot of makeup and the voices in the same I should have known, but yeah, no, I didn't get it. 00:31:48 Speaker 5: Oh wow, Yeah, it's surprised. It took me out of the film a little bit when I first recognized her, just because I was actually wondering if that was I did not see the most recent Halloween. I have not kept up on her her slasher film over, so I don't necessarily know what she looks like right now. 00:32:06 Speaker 6: I'm pretty positive was only a couple of years ago. 00:32:09 Speaker 5: Good lord was it? Those were very There were a very eventful couple of years there, Scott. I don't remember anything about the beforehand before time. But yeah, she she also doing physical action and high comedy and like some very sweet drama. There's a lot of demands placed on everybody here. However, she does not have to stick anything up her butt, unlike. 00:32:35 Speaker 6: So unlike a couple of gentlemen who uh, I just to even think about some of the stuff that this

movie, like that specific thing like how how do you even how do you think about it? And then how do you execute it? There's a lot of just like really gross, like just like low humor in this movie, which is of course, you know, was the big you know hook with Swiss Army Man too. It's just like we can make a respectable art house movie out of you know, some really really low comedy and and you'll respect us for it, which is which is you know, true of this film as well, you know, as it was with Sosami Man. 00:33:12 Speaker 5: So one of the things that Daniels are most known before they made their first feature of movies. We're doing some very distinctive music videos that also drew very very heavily on this kind of like transformational special effects. And probably the most memorable one is Turned Down for What, which features Daniel Kwan crotch slamming his way through a series of ceilings and floors and infecting other people with a sexual rhythm that causes their clothes to fly off, causes them to hump anything in sight, wildly causes their breasts to dance independently of each other. There's a lot of body part humor in their work. If you go look up their website, they have a lot of their old music videos and short films, and if you watch your way through the you will see a lot of butt stuff, a lot of like low humor mixed with high philosophy, a lot of special effects goofery like this. The short film Pockets remains one of my favorite short films, and also just like a really really outsized experiment in cheap special effects that are super super effective. But they have a movie called Interesting Ball in which a cosmic event happens and causes all sorts of bizarre things to happen. And one of those things is one of the Daniels getting sucked up the other one's butt, just in his entire body slowly disappearing up the other one's butt. So yeah, a little obsessed with butts, I want to say, come on, Yeah, I asked them about that at the Chicago Q and A. I wish I tried to record that Q and A because I know it would be informative. They're incredibly smart people who talk in incredibly sophisticated ways about their films, and they had a lot to say about, you know, their their love of lowbrow comedy, but also like why everybody thinks butts are funny? So yeah, there's just there's a lot going on here in the swing between like high brow thoughts and low brow humor. But one of the things that came out in that Q and A that I thought was really interesting was as far as the martial arts stuff goes here, like they're not like martial arts coordinators, they don't know a ton about it. So they got a fight club from Orange County kind of run by these two the two guys that end up as with trophies up their butts, and kind of turned over a lot of the martial arts action and coordination to them. They got a bunch of special effects people who love working in after effects and kind of handed a bunch of stuff over to them in terms of like here are some frames, like do fun things with them, do what you love with them. And there's a lot of that throughout the film, just kind of putting things in the hands of people who know know their work, no what they're doing. And there's like a bigger community aspect to this film than you might expect given how coordinated it all is. 00:36:08 Speaker 6: Just in terms of it being a giant collaborative process. Yep. Yeah, I was impressed by the fight sequences. The choreography is really strong and and compact. I mean, you know, you're you're really you know a lot of it. All of it is in the tax office. Is there any Are there any? I guess there may be some some action outside of the tax office, but not a lot though. 00:36:30 Speaker 3: I thought that was like one place where they saved some money, was just keeping it all in one location. 00:36:35 Speaker 6: Yeah, you just blow through cubicles and you know, cork ceilings and that sort of thing. I thought that was all well, well well done, and and I think you can kind of keep it a little bit mess that you don't have to be slick. And I think, you know, the one thing that did this, you know, you mentioned the whole Charlie Coppin thing. One thing that I think the Daniels there. The look of this film reminded me so much of the way that Spike Jones's adaptation of Coffin's work tended to look. I mean, there's something kind of unadorned about them, a little bit a little kind of grimy and gritty and real to sort of offset the you know, absurdity and and wackiness of the action. He's not put you know, you know, because I mean we can see through we could see through a lot of Spike Jones' music videos that he can put quite a lot of spin on the ball with his in terms of style. But I think with Coffin, I think he kind of understood that he needed, you know, to to present a kind of a visual counter strategy. And I feel like that's kind of a defining quality in this film in terms of the way it's it looks, in the way that those sequences are staged. 00:37:50 Speaker 3: I think it's it's for all the special effects in here. I think the thing that shares with those Coffin things for your reference is the ideas are the special or the real special effects? 00:37:59 Speaker 6: And oh ideas are the really thought human emotions. I thought human emotions are the ultimate special effects. 00:38:07 Speaker 3: That's different. That's something different. 00:38:10 Speaker 5: Well, that's what I sort of wanted to wrap up the solo conversation about this film with is like, in the end, this is a very as I say, it's a very humanistic film. That's that's built around these big messages, one of which is just a straight up Kurt Vonnegut message, which is be kind to each other. You know, There's it's fundamentally, life is meaningful because we make connections. Life is meaningful because we love each other. And the most important thing is just to be nice, and like, those are messages that can be very trite, you know, that can come across as very

surfacey. I really feel that the way this film earns them and expresses them, particularly with that Rocks sequence, makes them land. But I feel like that's going to be maybe a bigger divider about this movie than the butt humor or the the rate at which it all goes is just like whether the emotional content in the end lands for individual viewers. So I'm curious how that treated you guys. 00:39:09 Speaker 6: Yeah, I would say that would be kind of an issue for me a little bit. It lands for me, which is good. I mean, that's you know, the emotions of it are earned. However, there is kind of a narrowing effect to all of it, Like like once all of the chaos starts to wind down, and once you're kind of getting into the getting back to these sort of you know, individual moments, the multiverse contracts and becomes dangerously close to trite for me towards the end, while still being kind of affecting. But I don't necessarily want to commit to that suspicion, you know, because it's a different vibe. I guess the end then you're no longer in this place where of constant expansion and discovery. You're you're really kind of getting down to the emotional nitty gritty of it. And I don't necessarily want to kind of kind of condemn the film for being a little simpler in the end than I expected it to be, because I don't maybe I'm yeah, maybe my reading is a little off. 00:40:09 Speaker 3: I see what you're saying, but also really admired something I referenced before, which was if in some ways it's making the biggest possible story and the smallest possible story, making them the same scale. I mean, this is okay, Look, this is not Ulysses as much as I like this film, but there's a kind of Ulysses effect too, where like, you know, you have the grand story of of you know, of a Greek hero, and you have some guy walking around Dublin. But you know there's a lot of connections between the two of them. 00:40:40 Speaker 7: Uh. 00:40:40 Speaker 3: There, you have to hear this. You know, the universal is in peril. This mother and her daughter's relationship is in peril, and there you know, it puts them on you know, it kind of lets them balance each other in a way. I think that's really interesting. 00:40:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, I feel like just the emotional heart of this movie being all the ways this woman has failed herself and her daughter, leading to gigantic cosmic destruction and a cosmic destruction that can only be solved by her finding a way to not fail her daughter. For me, that does really land. I think Scott was the one that was talking earlier about how these personal crises that seem big enough to wreck the world in this case can wreck the world. And I think that that's a way of looking at emotional pain that's just very very harmonious, very sympathetic, very open to empathy and understanding how people feel. And then that ends up being the message as well, is be open to empathy and understand how people feel. It's like it's a little fractal concept that just

kind of goes around and around and around in terms of what the movie is saying and how it's saying it sort of both being the same thing. So I just think that this movie is really special. But I also think that Keith's reference to the fact that it's a movie about connections, and I think perhaps we should move along to connections about this movie and Christoph Kazlowski's Blind Chance. 00:42:14 Speaker 9: The right window treatments change everything, your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At blinds dot com, we've spent thirty years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over twenty five million windows and have fifty thousand five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you di wyatt or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. Right now get up to fifty percent off with minimum purchase, plus get a free professional measure at blinds dot Com. Rules and restrictions apply. 00:42:49 Speaker 6: Well. 00:42:49 Speaker 5: Now it's time for connections. When we bring these two films together and talk about all the things they have in common, I feel like the big thing is just here is just sort of the question between like what makes us us? You know, what makes us us from one possibility, the one future, the next, one choice to the next. And I feel like both of these movies kind of explore the idea of chance versus choice, and the idea that the people around us influence us a lot. Coincidence influences LUs a lot. Maybe there's such a thing as fate that influences a lot. But both of them really kind of rely heavily on the idea that you make choices and each choice leads to a thousand new choices. And in one case, it's just kind of showing us three possibilities that are very different from each other, but all work within kind of the same milieu, the same time and place that it happens. The other blows it out to ridiculous proportions and uses it to fuel a whole lot of nonsense. But I mean, are fundamentally these both these movies both just kind of about being human. Is about being linear and making choices, but that means like a band getting a billion opportunities to be different at practically every moment. 00:44:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:44:04 Speaker 6: Absolutely, And one thing one of the things I guess I thought about with both films is are those points where things split off? You know, where you know that those inflection points where where you know and of course it's in the in blind chance, it's at the in the the train station, of course, is where where all the three different possibilities emerge. And here it's like more than one spot, really, I mean, because you think you know, I mean obviously it's it's triggered by this audit that she has. And of course what could be more symbolic than that of somebody somebody going, you know, getting an audit of their taxes, getting a having in of course, an audit of her existence. So there's that, there's this point, there's this point where as an adult, where she's kind of where everything is kind of falling apart for her. That's an inflection point, that's a point of action for her. And then there and then within that you also have a point like when she decides to you leave home, you know, and that's that's something that's handled that we see circled back to more than once her leaving, her potentially staying as well, and in all of the choices and all of the you know what what what how reality changes based on that specific moment. 00:45:20 Speaker 3: Yeah, I almost get the sense that every is we're really dealing with quantum physics here, where every choice she's made almost branches it seems like it branches off and forms another universe. 00:45:31 Speaker 6: You know. 00:45:31 Speaker 3: It's almost like you know, with with blind chants, you get you know, these three pathways and with everything everywhere all at once, you get like just fractal that gets more complex with each each layer or something. It's it's it's a it's sort of a wild running with the ball from the Blind Chance idea. 00:45:51 Speaker 5: I think it's interesting that with Blind Chance, like all three of his possible futures are pretty buttoned down. You know, he's he's very much in this time and place and in the time of life that he's in specifically, like, he's not going to turn into a man with hot dog hands based on whether he can catch a train or not. He's just a you know, twenty something who's trying to decide who he's going to have sex with, and who he's going to hang out with, how he's going to spend his time, like where he's going to his aim is focus, but in everything everywhere, we get this message that like if she just made different choices, if she navigated her interests slightly differently, she would have been a famous, worldwide movie star, Like I don't know, Michelle Yoh. I think it's really fun how that possibility universe like both encompasses one car Y and encompasses like her actual life as a like a world class celebrity, but there is just a very different idea of scale in these two movies in terms of how far you might go based on the specific choices you make. And I think one of them is very practical, two very practical ends, and one of them is very impractical to very comedic ends. But in the same you know, in this at the same time, Evelyn sees that other possibility she could have and becomes a little obsessed with it. And I can't help but wonder if v Tech had had the same opportunity to look at his other possibilities, if you would have become obsessed with like that one being the good one because of you know, some aspect of it, and wishing as she does, that he could like jump into that world, the. 00:47:34 Speaker 3: One where he blows up on the plane, though I mean. 00:47:36 Speaker 5: Probably not so much. 00:47:39 Speaker 6: Well, but I think there's a I mean that's a crucial

difference between the two movies is that, of course wit Tech doesn't we as the audience, are aware of these options for him and the way things could have could have gone, and uh, you know everything everywhere. She's made aware of these possibilities too. I mean, like like that that the the things that she now gets to have access to, which which makes for a much much different experience. You know, on top of the you know, there's not a lot, not a lot of kung fu or hot dog fingers or or or talking rocks or or anything like that in a blind Chance Blind Chance in the universes. 00:48:21 Speaker 3: We see the universes we see, that is true. 00:48:25 Speaker 5: We do not get to see what what it's like in the universe where v Tech and his various possible lovers or just rocks sitting around. 00:48:34 Speaker 6: What would you take though? I guess as I mean, I think we can agree that the Daniels have, you know, ultimately an optimistic view of you know, humanity and and and the possibilities of being human. But where do you think Keith Slowski is if you watch a film like Blind Chance. I mean it is because I don't necessarily think I fall. I don't feel feel like it's a holy pessimistic movie Blind Chance, but it's definitely darker in terms of, like, you know, I don't think any of the three outcomes for wittech Car is all that appealing. 00:49:13 Speaker 3: It feels like he wants you to contemplate it more than to draw conclusions from it in some ways otherwise or the only conclusion I can draw from from Bland Chance is that you know it doesn't matter. You know, we we our choices don't don't matter in some ways, or our personality is such that, you know, what we think of as ourselves is actually just an illusion. And I don't know. I don't I think I'm taking it further than the film you know, really wants me to. I think it's more of a let's think about the cosmic implications of this. But I don't know. He's not going to tell you. I think the Daniels will tell you what to think. 00:49:53 Speaker 6: That is very fair? 00:49:54 Speaker 9: Is not? 00:49:55 Speaker 5: Yeah, very much a choice that is being offered you. 00:49:59 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:49:59 Speaker 5: Dennis Lam, how did this essay for Criterion that's on the Criterion channel website associated with Blind Chance, where he talks about like His answer to that question is that Kislowski is a cynic and that he's expressing his cynicism about like politics, about connection, about relationships, about maybe choices in and of themselves. 00:50:24 Speaker 4: But I don't know. 00:50:24 Speaker 5: At the same time, I think there's also a certain idealism in Blind Chance that suggests we have the ability to do a lot to determine our futures, and we have the ability to make changes based on our choices, Like certainly that first time through VTech makes a big difference for that asylum full of protesters. You know, he potentially saves a lot of lives there, and we don't get to see how something like that comes out without him, you know, there's no it's a wonderful life moment where we get to find out what happens to the people that he doesn't save, that he's not for. 00:51:01 Speaker 3: HM them might be right, because that's what I kind of that's the reading I kind of keep resisting. But I think my resistance has a lot more to do with Kazlowski's other work, which I do not see as cynecal. Not that it's all cheery or or you know, or or whatever, but it's nothing quite. There's nothing quite this uh fatalistic and dark, and in the other Kazoski films I've seen, it. 00:51:27 Speaker 6: Doesn't deal with the explain exploding. 00:51:29 Speaker 5: Yeah. I think maybe an interesting thing to navigate in asking that question is that Kislowski and Kwan have both talked about how religious faith was very important to them but also just a very private thing. Like Kilselowski was a believer, and I think the way, we see the second life play out in Blind Chance, where you know, in the first one, VTech talks about how he doesn't understand how anybody could follow religion when it's so destructive, But in the second one, he meets somebody who's strengthened by her faith and he listens as she talks very persuasively about what it means to her, and eventually he takes it up himself. And like, I feel like there's a very strong Christian thread flowing through Blind Chance that accept that religion can be a very supportive and helpful thing for people. And a Quan is also coming from a background like that, where religion was important to him, and I think some of the idealism we see in the Daniels work comes from that belief. That's something we expressly talked about in an interview he and I just in terms of how he himself personally navigates that struggle between cynicism and idealism. I think that that's something that both of these movies share, and both of these filmmakers share. 00:52:48 Speaker 6: Yeah, So one interesting point of contrast here has to do with the structure of the films. I mean, there is a kind of there. Even though Blind Chains is a little deliberately rough around the edges, you know, it's not neatly divided into three sections. You do have a preluded then you the first segment in the is larger than the second, which is I think slightly larger than the third, et cetera. It does have a structure, and it does allow you to compare it quite cleanly, the dividing lines between those three different fates, you know, one in which v Tech is a communist, another where he's a rebel of sorts, and another where when he's just leading a normal, a political, conventional life. Everything everywhere tries even though it has all of these different as a multi verse, it has different you know, fates, different possibilities or of timelines for Evelyn. That isn't necessarily worked into the fabric of the film in quite so clearly demarketed away. There's much more of a sense of spontaneity supposed to the way that the film unfolds. That isn't really true of

Blind Chance, which I think is Blind Chances feels like a demonstration of a theme, and everything everywhere is a little bit more, a little wilder, little deliberately rough around the edges. 00:54:19 Speaker 5: I feel like one of the places that Wild and This comes from is the decision to show you that everybody has all of these branching timelines individually. Blind Chance is pretty focused in on VTech's experience, and I don't think it all means to suggest that he is unique. I think he's more meant to be representational. And I think in particular the third story where we see at the airport some of the people that have been important in his life, and they're very clearly leading different lives. I don't think that's necessarily because of him. I think that the implication is just that everybody makes choices, everybody deals with Blind Chance, everybody is on all of these different tracks, and maybe the reason that everything everywhere feels so, you know, joyously messy. Like I agree that it's messy, but I think it's deliberate and fun is that we get to see that Wymand has a lot of different possibilities himself, that Gongong even has different possibilities, that Joy has infinite possibilities and reacts to them very different than other people do. So I think both of these films suggest that, like the multiverse is just kind of like a universal constant for everybody. Everybody has all of these choices to navigate and like these these messy worlds to live in. It's just that one of them mostly focuses in on one person and only hints at the rest of it, and the other one like openly explores the rest of it. 00:55:47 Speaker 3: I think if there's one one other thing that unites these films beyond their construction, is a sense that really nobody influences you as much as your parents. I mean, for Vtag, it's it's really trying to either live up to what his dad wants him to be or rebel against it, or to find a new dad who would tell him who he should be. And in you know, everything everywhere all at once. It's it's both everyone's dealing with with with her issues with their father, she's dealing with their daughter, and they're not the same issues but at the same time, but they're related in many ways, and it's kind of a sense of one generation repeating what the other has has done. So I you know, parents are all over these movies. Our parents kind of central to the multiverse. 00:56:33 Speaker 5: I think parents are central to the choices we make whether those parents were very present in our lives or completely absent, or somewhere you know, in between. I think one of the things we see a lot of in Blind's Chance is that, you know, his dad did influence and shape him, but at the same time, there's just sort of a sense of whatever you're indoctrinated with, you're you're more likely to take his truth. Like when VTech takes up Werner as his kind of replacement dad and ingests all of these ideas about communism and the value of it, why it's important. He takes in a whole bunch of messaging that he just accepts as true, you know, because it comes from his new father figure. And I think in the same kind of way, like a lot of Joy's joylessness. You know, it's a very ironic name she's carrying around, but a lot of her feelings about life either come from her mother's handling of her, which in some ways is you know, very distanced and disappointed, or just from seeing how distanced and disappointed her mother is herself, you know, her mother having imagined a lot of different lives for herself that didn't carry out. I think Joy looks at her and sees just the failure of possibility and is like depressed and disheartened by all of the ways Evelyn has failed herself and the implication that Joy will similarly kind of fail herself. I think there's kind of two models here, like our parents teach us and what we learn from watching them that they don't intend us to learn necessarily. 00:58:06 Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess there's a lot of push and pull. I guess so that that those are the those you know, every every child is going to have to use. Is kind of a jumping off point that relationship, but with with with their parents, of whether they are going to be you know, influenced and guided and inspired by a parent, or whether they're going to want to go in their own direction or reject completely the life or the ideas that the parent might might be wanted to impose on them. And so and that is an important point, and it is it is you know, an inflection point in those in both of these movies, and and and uh, you know, the father's death and and Blind Chance and then what we know, for example, of of of Evelyn and her decision to leave home when she did, and what what the significant so that was and where that you know, led her life. 00:59:03 Speaker 3: Ultimately, it made me feel good watching these movies that I have made no mistakes. 00:59:09 Speaker 6: So far, so so far, so good. Yeah. 00:59:12 Speaker 5: Yeah, Wait till you both find out that your daughters are the central necstasies of giant multiverse Colla the nose ring. 00:59:19 Speaker 6: They're gonna be like Dominique Swain and face off. They're going to get punk. They have a punk phase with their a little with their all their makeup and their nose rings and want nothing to do with us. 00:59:30 Speaker 5: Tattoos that they will hide under their sleeves. 00:59:32 Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly. 00:59:34 Speaker 5: Yeah, It's it's certainly significant that Joy's disappointment in her mother and desire to break from her is mirrored by Evelyn's disappointment her father and attempt to break from him, although he rejected her first in a pretty definitive way, and you know, in return, she seems to kind of reject her daughter and see her daughter as someone she should push away because she's again she's mooddeling perhaps unintended behaviors or modeling behaviors that were not meant to be illustrative. 01:00:08 Speaker 6: And maybe it's a thing where

you know, if you if you're disappointed with the way things have gone for your life, and you want the best for your kid, and then you push them away. You don't want them. Maybe you don't want anything that you don't want them to be sucked into your crappy timeline on the multiverse. 01:00:23 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true. There may be just sort of a sense and we may get the same thing from Vde's father and his like clear attempt to keep his son at a distance. 01:00:31 Speaker 6: Don't make this, don't make the same mistakes I did. 01:00:33 Speaker 4: Wow. 01:00:34 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a big in para movies that we've discussed a lot about, like whether they're inherently idealistic or cynical. Like that is a pretty big point of both cynicism and idealism. You know, my life is terrible is a is kind of a cynical thought. My life is terrible and unrecoverable is a cynical thought. But I can help you by rejecting you, so you go do something else is like a cynical idea list thought essentially. 01:01:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's Galaxy brain citizen right there. 01:01:05 Speaker 5: Well, I think everything everywhere is pretty pretty Galaxy brain movie making. And you know, compared to compared to, like the speed and ambition it operates at. Blind Chance may look pretty pretty like small and calm, but it's like Galaxy Brain thinking for its era as well. This just isn't a concept that like I've seen before in other films that Kaselowski came to in terms of how to tell a story, like how to crack open a universe into possibilities. 01:01:37 Speaker 6: Well, he's not alive, but he should be getting all the royalties for all these all of these films that he's influenced. 01:01:42 Speaker 5: I love the idea of doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness. Having a credit for Christoph Koselowsky for coming up with the idea of the multiverse. 01:01:52 Speaker 6: I'm sure he'd love If You're alive, he would love it. I'm sure he would love it. 01:01:57 Speaker 5: Well, he'd probably love the money because it would enable him too, you know, launched his next twenty film project. 01:02:03 Speaker 6: Yes, well. 01:02:04 Speaker 5: You can see many of Kiselowski's many film projects on the Criterion Channel. Blind Chance is available for rent on Amazon, on Voodoo, on many other streaming services. Digitally, it's all streaming on the Criterion Channel. It's available on Criterion DVD and Blu Ray. Everything everywhere, All at once. Is currently in theaters That's it for this edition of the Next Picture Show, but we'll be back next week with new pairing. Scott, can you set us up for our next episodes, which are releasing on April twenty sixth and May third. 01:02:38 Speaker 3: Tasha, you must be talking to someone on a different timeline or something, because I'm the one who'll be telling you about our next pairing. All the next two episodes of the Next Picture Show, we'll be looking at two films featuring for Nicholas Cages. First, we'll discuss Adaptation, a two thousand and three film written by Charlie Kaufman and directed by Spike Jones, in which Cage plays a writer's block afflicted screenwriter named Charlie Coffman and also his less self conscious brother Donald. Then we'll jump cut to twenty twenty two to discuss The Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent, in which Cage plays Nick Cage, a slightly down on his luck movie star and also a younger version of himself who's a little disappointed at the choices he's made. Yes, as Resident Cage Expert, I'll be hosting this one for now, we. 01:03:22 Speaker 5: Welcome your feedback on blind Chants, Everything Everywhere, all at Once and anything else film related you'd like to talk about. Email us at comments at next pictureshow dot net, and come talk to us on Patreon, where you'll find feedback, letters and discussion. Before we close out this week's episode, Where can we find everyone these days? 01:03:38 Speaker 3: Scott? 01:03:38 Speaker 6: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at Scott Underscore Tobias. You can find my work the New York Times, Guardian of Vulture, and primarily on The Reveal, the newsletter I run with Keith Phipps. The Twitter page for that is at Movies Reveal and the site is the Revealed dot substack dot com. Keith. 01:04:02 Speaker 3: I also think you should check out the Reveal at the Revealed dot subs do dot dot com, where you'll find my writing next to Scott's. You can also find me on Twitter at kfif three thousand. You can find a writing at places like GQ, The Ringer, TV Guide, and Vulture. You can sometimes find it in checkout stands of your grocery store at Entertainment Weekly special editions, which is a fun thing. I also have a book called Age of Cage, which is about the Nicholas films of Nicholas Cage changes in Hollywood. It is in bookstores now and also available on Amazon dot com. You know, if you want to, if you're interested read it. I'd like it. It'd be great. Tasha, how about you. 01:04:41 Speaker 5: I am the film and streaming editor at Polygon dot com, where you can find my writing about various forms of pop culture. I'm on Twitter at Tasha Robinson. Our absent co host, Genevieve is on Twitter at Genevievecosky, and she is the TV editor at Vulture dot com. You can stay updated on the Next Picture Show at Next Picture Show dot net and on Twitter at Next Picture Pod. You can get bonus content and opendiscussion at Patreon dot com slash Next Picture Show, and as always, we appreciate your ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Thanks to Dan the Bake Jakes for his assistance in producing this podcast. The Next Picture Show is proud to be part of the Film Spotting family of podcasts. Please tune in next time