Full Transcript for Jason Kidd: The Complete Campfire Story | NBA Campfire

who's Vincenzo. But are there many Vin like are like are there Chucks? My middle name's Charles. Is there are there Chucks anymore? think there's Charlie's. Charlie? Yeah, I think there's probably Charles's Chucks. Yeah. I feel like it's all like Aiden's and Yeah and Braden. I feel Aiden. I feel like if you just end it in Aiden, like that's everyone's name now. Anyway, so we're we're here to talk about Jason Kidd. and I gotta say, when we when we made our respective list of twenty players, I thought I was going to be alone in having Jason Kidd on my list. I did not expect that he would be a player that that you had, but he was one of I think the twelve that we overlapped on. what was it about Jason Kidd that that made you want to cover him on this season of NBA Campfire? I just I respect the crap out of his game and his mind. I think that you could say he's probably top five smartest players in the last twenty five years for sure. just we knew especially like watching him back over the last couple of days, last couple of weeks. it's like he he knew what the defense was gonna do before they did it. and honestly I thought his career spanned, you know, throughout What I mean he retired in what, two thousand and thirteen? and and he was consistently a high level player, really up until that point. I mean the Knicks they got went out and got him and like that he was kinda like hopefully their missing piece. so no, I I just I think that he had a really, really underrated career. I would say he's one of the more underrated players of this generation, honestly. I would tend to agree with you. by the point that this episode is released, we'll have the Campfire fifty out. Kid, just for his contributions from two thousand on, I had him ranked as the eighteenth best player of the twenty-first century. And that takes away his first five or six years in the league where he's already amassed something like twenty-six triple doubles. He is co-rookie of the year, he's brought Phoenix to the playoffs. Dallas to the playoffs. Like he we're losing a pretty considerable chunk of his career in the Campfire fifty timeline. And he's still eighteenth. So I agree with you. And everything you said about just the way his mind operates, we're going to get into that extensively throughout this podcast. but yeah, I I'm completely with you. He he is someone who I find fascinating as a player. let's dive in. Let's start with what if, our first category of the episode. I'll I'll toss it to you. What was your big what if for the career of Jason Frederick Kidd? So how I kind of did my my research was I watched a lot of like career highlights, just to get like that's how I started, just to get just to get into it. And His like rookie season, his first two years in the league with Dallas really popped to me. 'cause when I remember J. Kidd, I remember Jay Kidd as like a net and a maverick second time around. And that first stint with Dallas and even with Phoenix, but especially with Dallas, like significantly more athletic than I remember. significantly more aggressive than I remember. And so my my greatest what if is like, you know, what if he never got traded? And I know that he he ran into some issues with some teammates early on. He kinda wanted the ball a little bit And dis Dallas decided to move off I think they brought in Sam Cassell and some some others. but if we get Jay Kidd, young Jay Kidd and Dirk on the come up together, like, it's a domino effect. Like what happens to their careers, but also where does Nash go? I mean, does that trade ever happen? so I thought that was fascinating to just I I in my opinion You know, if he stays in Dallas, Dirk Dirk ends up with more than one. because I we'll get into it later, but I I I really think the J Kidd impacts winning in a in a way that maybe Dirk didn't have that as a teammate early on. That's a very interesting what if because we like a very popular what if and I think one that we may have covered in season one to to some degree is what if Steve Nash never leaves Dallas. Right. And you just have Nash and Dirk together throughout the two thousands. And I think that that's one that people talk a lot about. Keeping kid in Dallas I don't think is one a as common. Now I'm interested by you saying you think they come away with more than just the one ring they win in twenty eleven. I would as What years in your mind do you think that they are in that range? I would assume it's like that three, four range where San Antonio wins in O three. They beat Kid in the Nets, and then O four, it's a very vulnerable Lakers team on their last leg in the Shaq Kobe era. I I think that That's probably the range, that sweet spot for them. You have Kid sort of peaking at that time and Dirk coming into his own where I think three is when he makes his first first team all NBA. So that's interesting. 'Cause they obviously get the one later in their careers. Yep. But that three to five, six windows Especially 'cause you think about it like Dirk starts to go into his prime. you know, five to I mean really to eleven. but like their rate they're in six. You know, they lose to the Heat. And I I just you you give yourself a runway from O three to eleven to get one more, and I think that they do. I I think they steal one I think they could steal one from the Spurs. Like, I think they could steal one from the Lakers. I I I really do think that 'cause he impacts winning more than other point guards, especially early on in his career. That three to six range, he was he was elite level defender. and I just think that he would have impacted Dirk's career in a way where Dirk could have been the the guy still. He still would have, you know, scored his his points. 'Cause he wasn't Nash, I felt like although he was pass first, he was a better sh he I don't know if he was a better shooter career statistics wise, but I think I, you know, I just I test Nash as a better scorer in a way. Yeah. So Dirk still gets

his, but I I really do I think that, you know, from O three to eleven they they come out with at least two. That's interesting. I had never thought about that, but you're right. That particularly that O three to O six window feels very up in the air. Yeah. Where you have two Spurs titles, but you know, they they absolutely could have Stole one of those or stole it in 04 or maybe kids the difference in the 06 finals. That's a good call. That's a really good what if. my what if, and we just bring up San Antonio, but what if Jason Kidd signed with the Spurs in the summer of two thousand? Now there's there's a there's a New York Times article from July ninth, two thousand three, that I found. that came out shortly after Kidd and his then wife had just returned from a full-day recruiting trip in San Antonio. And three sources in that piece said that they had information that Kidd was leaning towards signing with the Spurs. Leaving New Jersey after two straight finals trips. The Spurs reportedly offered Kidd a six-year $94 million deal, which was just slightly lower than what New Jersey could offer. in addition to Kidd going to San Antonio, Greg Popovich had went to New Jersey to meet with the kids. Tim Duncan was involved in the recruiting pitch. And then so so but then he doesn't sign. He stays in New Jersey, plays out the next four or five years there with the Nets. But then in 2016, Kidd confirmed this to ESPN. He said, quote, I thought I was going to be a spur. I committed when I was down there on my visit. On my flight home, I think I got cold feet. And sometimes I still have nightmares about that. Yeah. So let's play this out. Jason Kidd, fresh off of losing in the NBA finals to the Spurs, joins the defending NBA champions. First of all, this effectively kills the Nets a full decade before they become totally irrelevant and move to Brooklyn. But the Spurs angle is even more interesting to me because now if we're talking about title windows and title contention in that 03 to 06 range. Now the Spurs are pairing Tim Duncan, a two-time MVP in 02 and 03, with Jason Kidd, who finishes the runner-up in MVP in 2002. like that is the early 2000s equivalent, I guess, of Kevin Durant joining the the Warriors in 2016. I don't know. But that that to me is like tremendously. Interesting to think about an alternate career path for Jason Kidd where he's just playing alongside Duncan and Ginobly and maybe Tony Parker. Yeah. We don't know if they keep those two together. Greg Popovich has said that the plan would have been to play those two together to bring Parker up alongside Kid. but to me that's just a crazy sliding doors moment in NBA history. The fact that Kid was that close. to committing to joining the defending NBA champions. Yeah, and I actually heard him on the All the Smoke podcast talking about this with Steven Jackson too. And I think he said he was like seventy thirty, like most of free agency that he was gonna end up in San Antonio. And then yeah,

like he committed in San Antonio, but then like was like, Am I really gonna go to a team that just beat me in the finals? Like I we're building here in New Jersey and I felt that he had like a sense of responsibility for New Jersey. That was his franchise, right? Like I I'm not just gonna, you know, leave the the team that I built. but yeah, I mean it it would be similar to KD you second in VP voting in two thousand and three. took his team to the finals, lost to the Spurs. I think the biggest like one eighty in all of this Is the Spurs would have went from this like mom and pop shop that do everything through the draft and they build they would have probably been the first super team. like that it w they would have been known as the the super team, not wha how we know the spurs of like this great culture and you know they they build young players into these role players that could impact winning and all of the r recruiting honestly in the development from overseas guys. It'd be like, no, they just went out and got the best free agent and paired him with Duncan. So it would have been very inter it would have turned the Spurs upside down in in that sense, but they would have been dominant dominant. I mean, just how good those early Spurs teams were defensively. Mm-hmm. And then adding the best defensive point guard to that mix where Tony Parker for for as talented as he was, I'd have him thirty in the campfire fifty, not a you know, a guy who we're gonna be talking about his defense at any point in time. Well especially great offensively, great at getting into the paint and scoring. Yep. Great pick and roll partner for Tim Duncan, but their defensive ceiling, when they're already one of the two or three best defenses in the league, it just goes up with Jason Kidd at the point of attack. Absolutely. And especially in like the early two thousands, two thousand four, you know, like at that point Duncan was he could get you twenty five. So you didn't really need Parker's pop like you did later on. so yeah, offensively I don't really think there would have been any issue there. they you know, it's not like they're taking a step back from Parker. Parker was still very young at that point. so it would have just been a a net positive with his defense. And then just thinking about like the maturity of Manu Ginobili in that range of years too where One year later, after the summer of two thousand three, he leads Argentina to a gold medal. five, he arguably has a case to be finals MVP against Detroit. So now you have like like we call the Duncan Parker Genobly a big three, but it would have been definitively more destructive and and like higher upside that if you have kidd that spot. And That says nothing if you keep Tony Parker there and just let him learn alongside Jason Kidd. You could potentially play those two together just because of how good Kidd was defensively and how he could guard up. I mean, he's a six four big body point guard who could guard shooting guards. Shit, we saw him guarding LeBron in the 2011 finals. So I I just I I revisited that as a topic and I thought like, God damn, how many more titles would they have come away with if they're adding kid to that mix? I mean, they win in five and seven and then not again till fourteen, but I feel like they probably win more than two over the rest of the first decade of the two thousands if kid's there. Yeah. Yeah, and like what does that do to Timmy, right? Does is he Yeah. Is he the best player i of the generation? Like, you know, you you give him two more rings, like he's that's it's hard to argue that. Yeah. It's funny though, kid impacts the Spurs and both our what ifs, 'cause I think he steals a championship from the Spurs if he goes to Dallas and he probably adds two more if he he goes to San Antonio. so crazy to think. The Spurs just have their fingerprints over the entire campfire era that we we cover. Like they're they're just involved in everything. Yep. before we move on, because like they're in they're involved in so many different storylines with like trades that we've kind of broken down with like even their own guys departing. But like none of it happened. Like they were always into discussion, but it was like No, we're good. We're gonna stay as you know, and that's like the Kawaii thing was just so weird. It was very out of place for them, but you're right. They're looming over everything. Yep. not necessarily always involved, but they're they're kind of just always there. Whether it's they're in the mix of these rumors or it's okay, they're the team we're trying to emulate or they're the team we're trying to catch, or They're the team that we're gonna zag against, like you look at what like Phoenix did with Dantonian Nash. They're doing the opposite of what the Spurs are doing at that time. And it's calculated. They're trying to Ye right. So we're we're still here twenty five years later. I mean, they were in the Giannis talks. Like it's just I think it's and w you know, we'll move off of the Spurs because this is a a kid podcast, but I think it just shows their their culture and how good they're Their organization is Rand. Yeah, we got Tim Duncan next episode. So we'll we'll have plenty of time to get back into that. Dynasty Test. So I just want to say this. There's something strange about Jason Kidd's game that I noticed as I was doing all this research that I'm not totally sure I can say about any other great player of the 21st century. There isn't a single era of professional basketball where you could drop Jason Kidd into it and think that guy doesn't belong here. And I don't mean that in that like Jason Kidd would automatically be the best player in every era. I mean more like stylistically, his game somehow contains pieces Of almost every version of basketball ever played, where if you drop him in to any point, you you wouldn't wonder how he's going to fit in. He's going to fit in seamlessly. So with that said,

I chose to drop Jason Kidd into Russell Celtics. Yeah. just because those teams, and again, you and I are Not in the demographic of having watched Russell Celtics. I've watched some highlights here and there, a couple full games on YouTube, but from what I've read, from what I've researched, they're built around defense, rebounding, passing, and turning stops into instant offense. That's Jason Kidd in a nutshell. Yeah. The the Kid Russell connection alone would have been incredible. Every Bill Russell block. Turning into an immediate fast break where Jason Kidd is orchestrating it. Or Kidd gets the rebound himself and Bill Russell is off sprinting, beating the opposing big down the floor. I I just think that that's a perfect fit for him, especially because we're talking about an era where there's no three-point line. So we don't need to even worry about Jason Kidd's. Questionable jumper, which we're gonna talk about some more because it it was such a big part of his career narrative, but yet he's one of the all-time leading three point shooters in league history. but yeah, I I just feel like if you're just asking Jason Kidd to defend and rebound and initiate and push the pace and make decisions in the half court, that's a perfect basketball fit for him. Yeah, that's that's you did that beautifully because when you were describing how you could fit him in in any style, I was like going through and then when I got to the Celtics I was like, hmm. Yeah, no, like him backing his defender down ninety four feet when they're pressing him, that fits right in. He's just gonna do the arm bar and he's just gonna Yep. He's gonna do that Oscar Robertson game. Just It it's perfect. Yeah, no, so I was like, Wow, he r he really can but I probably went with, you know, a cop out here, but I think you just you put him with the the Heatles, and you you have Wade and LeBron as his wings and the the transition plays that you would have. i I mean, that would have just been a highlight reel, but I like your take a little bit better because I would love the idea of watching him dribble. in the sixties because it w he it's like he has the same bag. Like he had the same bag as them. he just made it work. No, he he's the I think he's the most fun dynasty test guy that we're gonna cover. Yeah. Because you could so easily imagine him in every era. I mean, just think about him with like the Showtime Lakers. Yeah. You get him out there running with magic and worthy, like the passing that that team would possess and like again, he fits well with the nineties Bulls. You just have him out there defending on the perimeter with Jordan and Pippin. Yeah. And kind of being one of the guys in the triangle. Like he he fits everywhere. And that that's one of the greatest compliments that I could pay him is that his game is maybe more malleable to Era than potentially any other player we're going to cover. Yeah. And Any team too. Yeah. It's like he just fits in wherever he is with, you know, the skills that he possesses. so yeah, no, that's that's a good one. I I love that. next up, teammate Mount Rushmore. We pick our four top teammates for the player in discussion. I had five guys and had to cut one. Me too. And it was really tough. And I felt like there was a a clear-cut five and probably three that felt like must-haves, and then the final spot was down to two guys. But let's go one by one and and see if we ended up matching. Dirk Novitsky. Okay. Alright, so the guy that I think of first when I think of Jason Kidd's teammate. That's how I'm gonna go off my list here. and it's honestly not even c close is Ken Can I can I guess? Yep. Cause I I have this in my notes for this player. Not the best teammate, but if I think about like the visual identity of Jason Kidd in his career, I think I think of him and Kenyon Martin first. Bingo. Is that yeah bingo. Yeah, no, it's gotta be Kmart because just like their pick and rolls and the way that he got him out in transition and you always imagine Kmart hanging on the rim and bringing his knees up to the glass, smacking the glass after after a dunk. no, i he's he's not. He's not his best teammate, but when I think of J Kidd, I think of Kmart for sure. I he was one of the three guys that I felt like you you gotta have on the list. Yep. Yep. And quit. So yeah, okay. So did you have Dirk? Well, I was just gonna say quit he's my O L I. He's he's outside looking. He's my fifth, my fifth pick. Okay. That's interesting. I I went with with Dirk just because they technically they play together twice. They win the title together. that two thousand eleven championship, like there are a lot of veterans on that Mavericks team who get their one title. In 2011, but it felt like emotionally the guys that it made the biggest impact for for their career narrative was Dirk and Kid. So I had a hard time separating those two. so I have Dirk, I have Kmart. My third guy that I felt like had to be on there was Vince Carter. Fair. Did you have him on your list? Fair. So yes, I did have Vince on my list. He was my fourth selection. So he he just beat out Dirk on that one. Yeah, I mean he came after their finals runs in Jersey. but, you know, I think that those two together were also like a highlight real masterpiece, with with the way that they were able to get out in transition and yeah, I think that that's that that's pretty I think that you you have to throw Vincent there though. Probably the most talented offensive teammate that Kid had When he was still in what you could consider his prime. Yeah, I would agree. And in kids' prime, too. No, that's what I was saying. I think I worded that wrong. They were both in kind of their primes. The their primes sort of coincided with each other. Agreed. Agreed. Alright, so I have three that I've mentioned. You have two. Gimme gimme your third guy. So my third guy on the list Or your second, if you ordered him. So I ordered them, so we'll we'll save second for l no,

we'll save third for last 'cause I don't think maybe you might not have them. but the second pick to me was Richard Jefferson. And so Jefferson was my toughest cut. Okay. Yeah. I when I like to me the early nets, the finals nets, it's Kmart, but then like R J is a very close second. And I loved R J growing up. I don't know if you remember this, but everyone called their cousin G Richard Jefferson. I I don't know if it's because he kind of looked like him. I I do know it's because G really liked Richard Jefferson. Yeah, and because G could jump. Like we were G could jump. We were like 10 years old and G was grabbing the rim on like 7'5, and we were like, my god, he's like Richard Jefferson. this is a total aside. You're gonna remember this though. I know you will. Who was the White Duke player, and that doesn't narrow it down, I understand. But he was like maybe a six man who could jump like crazy and kind of looked like G, and there was a stretch there where we were calling G this player. Was there a guy whose last name was like Potius or something? Okay, yeah. Do you remember that? Yes. That was like two thousand I think it came in two thousand seven was his first year. I was gonna say like the two thousand six seven rate. Two thousand six, seven, yep. Yep. I don't think he he he was a six man on the The O seven team that got beat to VCU and then got recruited over immediately and didn't play the rest of his career. But yes, he could he had bounce. And punch back on him. He only has like three and a half fingers. What it even during his career or did he lose them after? No, he lost them when he was like a kid, I think, and I think he lost them by hanging on the rim. I Like Yeah. Cautionary tale. Yeah, right. but yeah, he was a a Lithuania national team player for a very long time. Now he played in the Olympics for a good amount of time, but yeah, shout out to Marty Poissus. Didn't think his name would ever get mentioned on this pod. No. Okay, so how do we Richard Jefferson, our cousin G, comparing him to players. So yeah, he G was a big RJ fan. I do remember referring to him. And that's a great call. Like I said, he was he was my toughest cut. But anyway, okay, so we've each named three. I'm interested in seeing if we have overlap on your third guy, my fourth. Yep. who do you have? Carrie Kittles. My explanation kid teammate. I did not have him. Great call though. Honestly, there's no real like reason. It's just I I think he belongs. Carry Kittles. He kinda he wore the high socks in the the early two thousands. He was on the the finals teams with the Nets. back court mate for a while. not really that good. Probably not top ten of his his teammates as like an active player, but I don't know. I will say averaged he averaged thirteen points per game in those two next title run seasons. Yeah, nothing stands out, but he belongs. Shot thirty eight percent from three. Which at that point was actually probably pretty high. I mean, I would be willing to

guess that on the O two team, yeah, he was their fourth leading scorer. You know what I think it was too? I think he broke his nose at one point and wore a mask for an extended period of time. He did. And I think like that he had like the Rip Hamilton, like I shot well one game, so I'm gonna keep it on, and that stuck with me as a eight year old chubby boy. So that O two this is just funny, the O two Nets who make the NBA finals they don't have a player who averages more than fifteen points per game. That's bonkers. Kenyon Martin 14.9, Keith Van Horn, 14.8, Jason Kidd 14.7, Kiri Kittles 13.4. Did Keith Van Horn ever play for the Pacers? I don't think he did, and I think we covered that. He's the one missing guy that like how didn't they make that happen? He he like Like he it it boggles the mind that Keith Van Horn the like the look, the name, the game, like everything about it screams Indiana Pacers. Way too much hair gel with the hair flip, like that just screams Pacers for. I is he the number one draft pick in the hair gel NBA All Stars? Yeah, man. He used to just put odd he must have went through like containers of hair gel throughout a season. Like thirty-five percent of his salary just went to hair gel. Didn't it move? His hair never moved. That was incredible. okay. I did not have Keith Van Horn as my fourth choice. I went with Tyson Chandler. defensive anchor on the two thousand eleven Mavericks, good lob, catching partner, good rim runner. also played with kid on the 2013 Knicks. So those are my choices. I don't think that there's any wrong choices in the six guys that we we picked. I love the detours that we we just went on in teammate Mount Rushmore. That was great. okay, pop culture comparison. This was a this was rubble. So I'm gonna I'm gonna kick things off and I'm gonna do a shameless plug. I'm gonna plug once again the Campfire fifty, because in the Campfire fifty I have a section in every individual player's page that is a non basketball comparison. And it doesn't need to be pop culture necessarily. But in kids' case, I did pick a pop culture comparison. Did you ever listen to the American Top 40 radio show on Sunday mornings? It was like Casey Caseum? With Casey Caseum. Casey Caseum is my pop culture comparison for Jason Kidd. For okay, so this proves that Vin and I are in our mid thirties because there's certainly no one younger than us who knows Casey Casey. I wasn't sure if you were going to remember Casey Caseum or if that was just me being very distinct voice. Yes. So just imagine for those who don't know, just imagine a man counting down the hits from coast to coast, and he has a voice that sounds like it's been marinating in warm honey for decades. Welcome to American Top 40. I'm Casey Kasem, and I'm all set to count down the 40 biggest hits on the pop chart. Well, this week we have one debut, a brand new song by Britney Spears. But before we start counting them down, let's recap last week's top three. At number three, back at one by Brian McKnight. At number two, Smooth by Santana featuring Rob Thomas. And at number one last week, I knew I loved you by Savage Garden. Now can Savage Garden hang on to the number one spot for a second big week? Only one way to find out. Let the countdown begin. Number 40. The most reassuring voice that you've ever heard, and everything he said sounded important. And you'd be sitting there, and you'd realize, okay, Casey Case's job isn't to make the music. He wasn't Prince or Michael Jackson. He wasn't Shania Twain or Brittany Spears. But he was the guy who was responsible for putting everybody in the right order. He knew that when one song ended. He needed to begin another or tell another story, setting that song up. His entire job was sequencing. And that's Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd was never the best scorer on his own team. He wasn't going to give you 30 every night for a significant portion of their career. There are probably nights where you wished you would stop shooting jump shots, but he always seemed to know what the game needed next, who needed a touch. Who who can we attack? That is Casey Caseum. He is laying out the entire format of American Top Forty and doing it beautifully. He's the reason the show made sense, and I think that's maybe the greatest compliment you could pay Jason Kidd is he made teams make sense. I mean, that was perfect. Like you're in Thank you. You're in your bag on that one. Wow. I will say though, there was nothing more like. conflicting than riding to Sunday church and listening to Casey Kasim break down the Yin Yang twins. Like, this is weird. But yes, that's a great, great breakdown. be significantly better than mine. So I have two one is just a sports crossover that I think is more realistic. And I've had nothing for pop culture, so I I took a stab at one that's like a real stretch, but my comparis cross sport comparison is Matt Stafford. and for a lot of the same reasons that you just broke down, like the ability to let his players go make plays He also has like a flash to his game, but there's nothing like athletic about him. Like he's not, you know, just a superior athlete that's you know, crossing somebody over and going to dunk on you or, you know, crossing someone and hitting a step back. but he does have this uncanny ability to know where the defense is going to be, know where his his teammate is going to be and put the ball right where he needs it, and I think that's Stafford. Also won one championship late in his career, moving to a different team. you know, I just tough guy, consistently like a top player in the league, but never really categorizes the best. so I went with Matt Stafford. I know that's not really pop culture. Honestly, that that's a fantastic comparison, and as soon as you said it, I was like, shit. That makes sense. Yeah. And I think You kinda touched on it, but like Stafford getting that Super Bowl ring with the Rams validated what a lot of people were already saying

about him. And you as a Vikings fan, me as a Bears fan, we saw him two times a year for a decade. Yep. And that motherfucker was always game. Cold. Yeah. Yeah. Tough as hell. I I hated having to go up against him, even with some really bad Lions teams, like he was just a bitch to have to play against. And then it was like that one title everyone else realized, like, yeah, that that's the validation. Right. And with Kid, it's a little different because he wasn't the star of that Mavericks team, like Stafford was in LA. But I think the ring had the same sort of effect. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great call. I'm glad you you like that one 'cause my next pop culture comparison is Oz from American Pie. So not good. What? I'll let you know what's what's going on here. so we starts off as my god He starts off with a little bit more flash and swagger, right? Like Oz is, you know, he's he's in the car with the college girl and he he throws out that line, like, my What line? What was the line? something about beautiful or something beautiful. Great night, isn't it? Sure. It's something about the springtime that's just cool, you know? Like the smell of fresh rain or something. Suck me, beautiful. What did you just say? Suck me, beautiful. Friends call me Nova. As in Casa Nova. That's pathetic. Jeez, you don't have to laugh at me. Well there's just some things you need to learn, that's all. Like what? But yeah, he says a line, But anyway, as he as the movie progresses, he gets like much more mature and he still has like the occasional funny moment here or there but he becomes like the mature one in the group still successful still a big part of the movie but not necessarily the main character that's that's a reach. But we're gonna go Oz from American Pie circa nineteen ninety-nine Wow. I did not expect that. Yep. Yep. Okay. Well I I don't know what to add to that. I I can't wait to include the video that you referenced. I'm gonna put that in because you you weren't willing to say it. we're and I don't blame you. maybe we could save that for the erotic scale. There there we go. But we're gonna take a commercial break. When we come back, we'll play a round of hot take, hotter take, and break down the defining play, game, and season. Of Jason Kidd's career. Stay with us. Next line, please, Jason. F-O-D-P-C. good. now the line below it. D P L T C. now the bottom one. Z-O-L. Doc, I can't see where you're doing that. C F T. Thanks, Mr. Kidd. Richard, your car's being told. What? What? Back up. Alright, hot take, hotter take. Where we put on our stupid looking Ski Bayless hacks and and try to throw out a take that would exist on a show like First Take or whatever the hell Skip Bayliss failed show on Fox was. Do you wanna go first Yes. The last two you've you've had a hotter take than me. I wanna go first because it will tie back to your what if. Okay. So I do think it is a hot take, but if Jason Kidd does go to the Spurs in two thousand three, and that

was very close to happening, as we documented earlier on the show, he is the best point guard of the generation. And that includes people like Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, Gary Payton, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker. I I think he is without a doubt the best point guard in that conversation if he goes to San Antonio. And in a lot of it is he is the best two way player out of those guys, I would say. And I think that the way the Spurs play, he would fit in perfectly and they would just win as we mentioned, they would win so many championships. And I think that at that point you there's no real argument. Like he would if you he has three rings, I don't think you could argue Nash against him. I may No, I agree with you. Maybe AI, but three rings like that, a gold medal, I think that with where his statistics Two golds, right? 'Cause he Yeah. He wins in two thousand and eight. Yep. Yep. So I think where like his accomplishments go if he if he does choose the Spurs in O three, I think he's the best point guard in our generation. I I think that that is fair. I mean you just give him two titles instead of one and if those titles come in the prime of his career, I'm with you. I I think that that validates him immediately and it doesn't even matter what the back half of his career looks like. Right. So that that is I don't even know that that's necessarily a hot take. That's like a medium take. But I I completely agree with it and If we're talking about Jason Kidd's place in NBA history in this hot take, hotter take segment, I I have one and again, I don't know how hot this is, but I went with if Jason Kidd had developed his late career three pointer ten years earlier, he'd be universally viewed as a top twenty player ever. I would agree with that too. I would agree with you. Because here's the thing, we're not asking him to become a different player. We're asking him to take the one weakness that defenses could theoretically exploit and remove it from a guy who already was finishing in the top five in MVP vote without it. Now, just for clarification, we're talking about a guy who during most of his prime was mocked by taunts. From fans like his name is Asen Kidd because he has no J. Stupid. A guy who and and again, this is a guy who during his first ten seasons shot thirty-two percent from three, but then over his last nine, shot thirty-seven percent on one more attempt per game. And with all of the ridicule, it's worth mentioning that when Jason Kidd retired in twenty thirteen. He ranked third all time in three pointers made behind only Ray Allen and Reggie Miller, who are considered now with Stephan Clay probably the Mount Rushmore of three point shooters. So basically what I'm basing this on is let's just imagine that Kid is giving you maybe two and a half more points per game. But more importantly, he's more easily able to overwhelm defenses. in the half court that could routinely go under on him on screens or sag off of him. So we're not only talking about a better statistical resume, but likely a better win-loss record if if that is the player that he is and he could exploit defenses more. So you know, even if he doesn't go to the Spurs, which we we've hit on that what if, in hot take a couple times, but I think that you could potentially say that if he's that guy through his entire prime, maybe we get an additional finals appearance. Yeah. Or maybe that's enough to push the Nets over the edge in 03 against San Antonio and he gets a ring in his prime as the best player on a championship team. And if that's what we're getting, I think it's reasonable to think that we'd be looking at Jason Kidd right now as Maybe the fourth best point guard of all time behind Magic Johnson, Stephen Curry, and Oscar Robertson. Instead of somewhere in that seven to ten range, bunched with guys like Nash and Stockton, Gary Payton, Isaiah Thomas, like he's in that group, but I think he's elevating above it if he gets that knockdown jumper ten years earlier or five years earlier. Agreed. Agreed. I do think his three point shot might be the might be the most confusing story in NBA history, in a way. And honestly, my what if was what if he wasn't third all time when like he retired? Wouldn't it just made more sense? Like I I just when he retired and he was third all time, I was like, I don't understand basketball. Like I because his whole entire I mean, his whole half of his career his prime, he really wasn't looked at as a three point shooter. Right. So yeah, to give him that strength, people would have had to guard the pick and roll so much more, you know differently, they would have had to either blitz it or go over the top and and then he's getting into the lane or he's, you know, finding the the pocket past. And now you're playing four on three and and yeah, that takes the Nets to a whole nother level, at one point for sure. 'Cause he had the athletes around him. You put a you know, a thirty eight percent three point shooter in his spot, yeah, it's gonna be really difficult to guard. That's how I felt. Yeah. So yeah. all right, one play, one game, one season. Repick the play. Game and season that defines this player in our minds. I'll lead off with one play. And this is probably cheating because I don't have just one play. I'm going to describe a type of play, and even better, so I don't put pressure on myself to describe it perfectly. I'm just gonna put in the video. There are a handful of plays. Well, let me backtrack. One of my favorite random things to do is just watch Jason Kidd's career highlights that focus on his passing. Because there are very few players in league history who are more creative passers than Jason Kidd. And as a pass first point guard who for most of my basketball career could not shoot. I I feel a certain kinship to Jason Kidd. But there are passes that Jason Kidd throws that I would have never even conceived of trying to throw. And that's what separates him not only from me, but a lot

of great NBA players who played the same position. So that is a roundabout way of saying there are a handful of plays where Jason Kidd throws what Could probably only be called a bowling ball pass. Yep. In transition, where he's throwing a hit-ahead to a teammate from an angle that nobody else in the NBA would even try to make that pass. It's low to the ground, and I'm gonna back up here, and he is like putting spin on it like he's throwing a bowling ball. And it just hits his guys perfectly in stride. And that to me is the one type of play that defines Jason Kidd because I don't recall seeing anybody else throw that exact kind of pass. Six from three-point range. Kidd ahead to Harris. He runs it down, lays it up and in. Now, how about that pass selection? Who would have thought of that? And he just comes up with something new almost every night. How about the spin too? Look this. It's almost unbelievable to head down. Stock Kittle's right up on Houston and lost it. what a feed from Jason Kidd to Kerry Kittle. Exquisite pass by a kid. Watch the spin on the ball, a little backspin right there. Maybe the best I've seen over here. Not a bad finish either. You see that perhaps? Look at the spin he puts on it. me. you're rocky. No, and honestly when you you're describing it, it r takes me to like it's it's like a entry pass to a big man. Yep. Right? Where like you you're catch say you're on the right wing and you catch the ball, you know, little little rim post action, shot fake, you know, get your guy up, fake a pass and make a pass. But then you you put spin on it To make sure that it's like leading your big to the rim or it's leading them away from their defender. But who is doing that like a sixty foot pass? Yes. Where that entry pass, that entry pass is what, maybe eight feet that you're throwing that. Right. Kid's throwing it forty-eight feet. Yeah. Slicing through defenders to hit a man perfectly in stride. It I I It baffles me every time I watch it. Yep. And I hope as I drop the clips in people watching are like, Yeah, that's some fucking sorcery. Because I've never seen that before. Because no one else maybe I'm wrong. And if if you know or if anybody knows of anybody else who throws this kind of pass in transition, let me know because I've never seen it besides Jason Kidd. Yeah. No, that's a good one. That's a good one. And my It's funny. My pi play isn't that type of pass, but I think it's very similar. So my one play is going to be the game winning out of bound side out of bounds against the Rockets, where Yao is guarding the inbounds, and Yao's got what? 14 inches on him? I think, right? Yeah. Yeah, legitimately fourteen inches. I think there was One second left and the Mavs were down by one. I think it was two thousand ten. and it's a a side out about half court. And the thing that the pass was great, obviously. He got the pass over Yao, but I think the thing that just stands out when you watch J. Kidd is again, he puts the he throws his

guy open. And that's similar to like the Stafford comparison. Is he throws the ball before his teammates there, before the defense reacting. He just puts the ball in a spot that he knows they're gonna be able to make a play in. And that's what he did on this outside out. Marion goes gets the tip and they win, you know, on a walk-off. incredible pass, but it's more like the decision making of like, okay, I know he's gonna get this back screen, the guy's gonna go over the top, he's gonna have a play. at the rim. I just need to get it there. And and it's on time, on target. and I think that that's just, you know, a special play, but it's also something that he did routinely and it it does it describes his career. Feels right. Yeah, no, that's a great pick, and that was one of the the honorable mentions that I had. be and you laid it out perfectly because it's not only just the pass, which is hard enough, because that's probably what a thirty-five, forty foot pass that he's making. But also getting it up over the tallest man in the NBA. And you again, throwing it before Marion is even there. Right. It it's just trusting like, okay, I know where the ball needs to be. I know I need to throw it, anticipating that Marion is gonna be there, and here we go. And it's a perfect pass. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Great pick. All right. What about one game? One game, Is I went outside the box on this one and I really I think that it just describes J Kidd especially later in his career. So I went with the two thousand eight semi final game against Argentina. 'Cause I I did want to get the Olympic J Kidd in there. So at this point he's thirty five. and it's his best statistical game. of that Olympic run. And I think it just really shows like how and we mentioned it before in the the dynasty draft, but he could play with anybody. He could play any style and he impacts winning in such a great way. He does all of the little things. He doesn't need to shoot. There were multiple games in this Olympic run where he didn't even shoot. or maybe he'd take one shot. But he his fingerprints are all over the game. Didn't he say before the Olympics started that he wanted to not have to take a shot? Correct. The entire time? Yep. Yep. And yeah, I mean he came close. Like I bet he shot maybe twenty five times the entire Olympic run. I don't think he even shot that many. Yeah. but still had such an impact on winning. I mean, really, they lose an O four and they do get Kobe to come. He's the biggest domino. but a big part was getting J Kidd on that team. as the leader, as the the general, yeah, and I I I just think that that game, that team describes how he's able to fit in anywhere. So you guessed twenty five shots. Yep. He was six for seven from the field throughout the entire Olympics. Yeah. Yep. And I mean they probably played what? That's at least six eight games. Eight games. So less than a shot a game. Yep. Great stuff. Great pick, too. he he was very fun. The whole team was fun

to root for, and we've hit on this a couple times with the Redeem team, but him specifically on that team. And I love that even though at that point in their careers Chris Paul, Darren Williams are on the come up, it's still Kid who's getting the start for that team just because of how much he meant. And like he I think is thirty eight and going into those Olympics and international play. And him keeping that undefeated streak intact was a big part of it was one of the many narratives from that. 2008 Olympic run. So great pick. I'm glad you that we represent him somewhere in this episode, his time with the Redeemed Team. Absolutely. My choice for one game. I'm going back to December 2006. The Phoenix Suns visit the New Jersey Nets, and it's one of three games on a Thursday night. But it's not part of the TNT doubleheader. Thank goodness this is the first year that I have NBA league pass. And these two teams play a double overtime classic that ends with a final score of 161 to 157. And Jason Kidd and Steve Nash put on an absolute point guard clinic in this game. Nash goes for 42 6 and 13. Kid goes for 38, 14, and 14, his 78th career triple-double. the Suns win, but this is coming off of back-to-back MVP seasons for Steve Nash. And I remember coming out of that game thinking, God damn, Jason Kidd is still every bit as good as Steve Nash is. And I'll say this: this was early in the very first season that I had League Pass and this was probably the moment where I truly realized that NBA League Pass is among the greatest innovations of my life. Because before this season I would have had to settle for watching a two minute highlight package of this game on Sports Center, but instead I got to watch the whole damn thing. Yep. And it was glorious. Yep. Yep. Yeah, and just on a random Tuesday night too, right? Like that's that's the best part about it. No, it was great. I I remember from that first like month, month and a half of having League Pass, the two games that stand out where I was like, I I'm in love were this game, and I got to watch rookie Adam Morrison go up against LeBron. A random Charlotte Bobcats Cleveland Cavaliers game, and I d Both times I was just in my glory. It was amazing. One season. This was probably the the easiest one for me to pick and I imagine we probably have the same one. O two three? I have O one O two. Okay. Okay, so I went O two three just it's his second year in the finals. again he finishes second VP voting. averages you know, roughly nineteen, seven and nine. better statistical year than his first year in New Jersey. Yep. but I I honestly I think those two years coexist in a way. You could bunch them together. You could bunch them together. It's just like that run. It's the same team, same play style. So yeah, I just think those two years were probably his his biggest years of his career. made him who he was. I went with O one O two just because of the novelty. of it where this team their overunder was thirty five and

a half wins. They're coming off a twenty six win season. And they bring in in addition to Jason Kidd, you you get Kerry Collins, you get Jason Coll or Kerry Kittles, Jason Collins, Todd McCullough, thirty two games more of Keith Van Horn than the year before. And you get Richard Jefferson. But those guys alone aren't responsible for doubling a team's win total from twenty-six to fifty-two. That's Jason Kidd, and that's the Casey Caseum of it all, right? It's Kidd making all this work, putting all these guys in the right positions, knowing how to best utilize them. He averages fifteen, seven, and ten. He's the best defensive point guard in the league. And he brings this franchise that had never had any postseason success. And he brings them to the NBA finals when they're supposed to not even be a playoff team in a very weak Eastern Conference. But again, these two seasons go hand in hand. I don't think that there's anything wrong with either choice. yeah, that I I think we're Kind of saying the same thing. Yep. Absolutely. just a another random tidbit. In those two years, do you think his son got the most airtime out of any relative in the NBA? I felt like every time he played they showed his son. What's that would be another I that's I need to I need to look that up. What's Jason Kidd's son up to? Hopefully nothing bad. That that would be another really interesting draft for us to do. The first thing that came to mind was Eva Longoria when she was dating Tony Parker. Yep. She's she's up there. but yeah, Jason Kidd's wife and and son got a lot of screen time. yeah. Trey. Right. Trey Kidd. That's his name. Did you find what he's doing? What Trey Trey Kidd? That's what we're Yep, Trey Kidd. I mean, he's he seems like he's living a normal life, honestly. No no arrests, which is good. so yeah, Trey. Did he grow into his head? I was gonna say that. I'm not one to, you know, criticize a child's appearance, but boy, you had a noggin on that guy. but no, yeah, he seems to be doing good. So good for Trey. Good for good. Sorry to derail us there. No, that that is a great aside. If we're telling the story of Jason Kidd, you kinda need to talk about his big head son. Alright, one last commercial break, and when we come back, we've got a double dose of Coach's Corner. Not only will Vinny be stepping in, but we have our good friend and NBA Campfire brand manager, Colin Stucco, doing a Coach's Corner segment for Doctor's Orders. I don't know what to expect. We'll find out. Hickory Dickory Doc. Kate can handle the rock. He's tough to defend even harder to block. The less I could shot. He does a whole lot. But in the finals, he ran that Nah, meh, meh, take a recary duck. Nothing is more traumatic than the truth, TNT NBA Thursday. Let the truth be told with Ernie Kenny Magic and Sir Charles every Thursday night. TNT NBA Thursday. What's up campers? It's the Doctor, back for another week's episode of NBA Campfire, where this week I will be pulling on my coach's hat

and this week's Coach's Corner to talk about, although not a literal baby goat, maybe the next best thing in terms of NBA players, the one, the only, Mr. Jason Kidd. I had a chance to watch Jason a lot growing up and I always found his game inspirational because as a guy, like many of us who likes to shoot, who wants to score a lot of baskets, Jason was the opposite of that. He was a true floor general's floor general, and he controlled the game not by taking a bunch of shots and by scoring, but by controlling without the ball. He was a great defensive player. At 6'4, he was a strong guy, so you could match him up against other big guards. He was gonna get in there, engage, he was gonna move well and play smart D, be pesky out there. But what I admire most about his game is how he would crash the defensive boards, get a rebound, and once he had the ball in his hands, he was essentially a six foot-four quarterback with a running start, looking to push the pace. push the ball and transition to get it out there and he was such a good anticipatory passer. He understood where players were gonna be, the spacing, the motion, and really just saw the play before it developed, which allowed him to deliver some absolute dimes and some tremendous passes and just controlled the game in a way that more conventional scoring point guards just aren't able to do. So for those reasons, front office, this coach is gonna ask to sign the man. Let's give him a max contract. Doc's orders over and out. That's a perfect segue into into what you wanted to cover in your coach's corner today. Absolutely. also the mustache that Doc is rocking is pristine. It is. It is. I like the little vest Huey's got going. it's a good look. It is, it is. I I it it it smells rich. Like, you know, Doc, you're doing it. You're doing it. Alright. We're gonna we're gonna add on to actually what what our man Dr. Colin Stucco had to had to say. And on today's coach's corner, we are going to be looking at the kick ahead passes, pushing transition, and as as our good friend Doc mentioned, it's the anticipation that kid has. but One thing that we could control, right? So whenever we do these breakdowns, we're trying to simplify what makes these special NBA players so great, but how do we, as guys that don't have that natural talent, how do we have those same characteristics where you can make some of these same plays? And I think the biggest thing that we want to look at today is whenever he gets the ball, the first thing he does is his head goes up. And I think that a lot of times with point guards especially, when they get the ball in transition, their first their first movement is to put the ball on the ground. And a lot of it to me, mentally, is they feel like they need to make the play. They need to be the one going down in transition, making a move, having the defense come over, and then making a pass for a layup. What I think Kid does amazing in in his different, he's unique in this sense, is

that he's so willing to give the ball up early. He lets his athletes make plays, and a lot of that he's just keeping his head up and and really willing to to let his teammates go make the play. He's not, you know, gonna gonna be selfish here. So again, heads up right away, no dribble. so a lot of these there's no dribble. His head immediately goes up and he's he's out the door. Again, another thing to look at when we're looking at these is he takes he reads the defense in a way where if he sees that there's like a two on two like in this situation, he's gonna give the ball up and let his guy go play. He's not gonna over dribble and try to make the play himself. He really trusts his teammates and with the way that he keeps his head up and the way that he's able to push the ball. and allows guys to go play two on two. guys like Richard Jeffer Jefferson or Vince Carter. you know, it allows them to get a lot of easy transition points. This play specifically we're gonna go back on is something that I love and I wish that a lot of honestly like high school kids were to take advantage of. So the ball is out of j kids' hands, but When Kid had the ball, he notices that Shaq and D Wade, and I believe that's Mr. White Chocolate, Mr. Roddick himself, Jason Williams, they're jogging back. Right? So the Heat had just scored. The Nets are taking the ball out, but he notices that there's three guys jogging back. So he pushes the ball ahead and he allows RJ, and I believe that's Christic Christic, their center, to go play two on two. And a lot of point guards don't give the ball up here. They want to come down, control the ball, dominate the ball, we'll just get into a pick and roll, or maybe I'll push the ball and try to make a play on Jason Williams and then cause help and then make the the pass. He just kicks the ball ahead and allows his athlete to just go play in space and that's an easy score. And I think that that's something that a lot of high school kids could do. is okay notice that if there's not guys sprinting back, go let your athletes make a play. So again, as we see these highlights, it's not like flashy passes. It's not these athletic explosions explosive moves getting by his defender. It's really as as our doctor said, it's anticipating the defense, it's throwing your guys open, it's trusting your teammates, it's having your head up. seeing the floor. I think that's something that Kid does best is he sees the floor, he sees everything on it. and it's taking the opportunities when they're there, right? Like you don't need to have a a three on one to to push the ball in transition. If you see that there's three guys on defense jogging back and you got a two on two opportunity, get off the ball, get it down the floor and let your athlete make a play. You know, and again th those are the small things that we're gonna focus on here, not necessarily like just you know, make a behind the back pass. It's what could we control, you know, dumb it down a little bit, focus on the details, and I I think the the biggest detail is just get your head up. That one play specifically that you stopped and went back to and highlighted where he hits ahead to RJ. There are a couple things that I noticed. One and and this was something that when you watch like the seven seconds or less sons, you tend to notice. There's twenty three seconds on the shot clock when that pass got delivered to RJ. That was immediate. Yep. And two, not only like That's trusting your teammates. And obviously the Nets with RJ, Vince Carter, Kmart, like if you could push ahead to those guys, that's great anyway, regardless of who the opponent is. But I feel like against a team like Miami, where you have Shaq, who's kind of lumbering up and down the court, why not play fast? Or make him have to run, wear him out. It it's that recognition of situation, opponent, teammates, i it's all of it. And it and it is the full Jason Kidd experience. You could watch a a shitload of Jason Kidd highlights and get the behind the back passes and the no looks. But it's simple plays like that that I think take him up a level. Absolutely. And the consistency that he made Right? Yes. It was always. It was constant. Exactly. One trait only. I imagine we're gonna be having a similar conversation here as to what we were just having. but what's your one trait only for Jason Kidd? Yeah, and I I mean, not to be repetitive here, but it is his decision making. but I'll take it one step further because it's not always that like he does, he makes the right decision a lot of the time. But I think the thing that's really special with him is that he's able to make the early decision. He's able to kind of see around the corner in what's to come and make that decision. and as we're gonna stay here very deep in life, right, it's not necessarily about making always, you know, obviously we want to make the right decision all the time, but if you have the ability to make the decision quicker than others, that's where you're going to set yourself apart. and I think that that's something that he did throughout his whole career is he was able to read and recognize and make quicker decisions than anyone he shared the floor with. And that gave him like a a power that maybe, you know, he didn't have with his three point shot or with his ability to just go dunk on a guy. But his decision making was his superpower and the way that he was able to do it. So early in a process, It it just made it so much better. First of all, I love that you've taken on this role of like a life coach in in these sections. You're great at it. I if your career right now ever falls through and if we don't make it big with this podcast, y there's something clearly that you can do. So you know where it comes from? It comes from being a high school coach and really trying to make people understand that you could learn so much in life through sports. That's that's where that's where I was coming from. So yes,

I I'll take that. Those kids that you coach were very lucky to have you. second, we're kinda on the same track here. if I'm stealing one thing from Jason Kidd, I want his processing speed. Sure. I want to be able to walk onto a basketball court and understand seemingly what everybody is about to do. a half second before they do it. I felt like he just collected and processed information so quickly, whether it's defender positioning, teammate momentum, spacing, score and time, what teammates haven't touched the ball recently, where the help defender is gonna be. And that's just offensively. I think he was a very opportunistic defender for the same reason. He could Not only was he great on the ball as a defender, but I think that that processing speed and constantly being able to read the entire floor are why he gets to the end of his career and he's second all time in steals, in addition to being second all time in assists. I think that those two statistical markers just tell how quickly he could process information. in the thick of a basketball game. And to me, like that is what stood out more than just the passing alone or just the decision making. It was how quickly he could look at the floor and understand what the right decision was. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. We're on the same age there. Yeah. all right, for Next category, we're we're gonna- I'm sure we're gonna be talking the same sort of deal, but I do think we need to set the mood. So I think we need some mood lighting. There we go. And now we need some music. Set the mood, some music. There it is. It's time for the white chocolate erotic scale, where we determine how erotic a player's game is on a scale of 0 to 6.9. My favorite category. Category that I feel like makes Vin a little uncomfortable. so Jason Kidd on the erotic scale. I think that Jason Kidd's game extremely erotic if you're attracted to basketball competence. Considerably less erotic if your kink is jump shot aesthetics. Fortunately for Jason Kidd, nothing gets me going more than a fully developed basketball cortex and a throbbing hoops IQ. we we kinda We hit it on already. He he knows when to push, he knows when to pull out, he knows when to go back inside. Watching kid run a fast break is basically foreplay for basketball nerds because there's not an aphrodisiac quite like elite decision making in the open court. in the half court, I would say he has a tendency and a real gift for deep penetration without overhandling. I've got him as a even six point on the white chocolate erotic scale. The highest score that I've given out so far. Yeah. Wow, that's that's I mean stole stole my thunder a little bit because yeah, he's gonna he's gonna rate at at my highest score as well. I had previously gone on a ten point scale I think with Brunson and then had to lower it back, so I came a little bit more prepared today. things that you just mentioned, he's got a sexy game. Like when you watch him play, he pops. you know you you notice him.

and he might not be the sexiest player on the floor, but he's definitely someone that you continue to kind of catch your your eye. He always is catching your eye. so I will go with a five point nine. Okay. Yeah so five point nine and a half is the average that's gotta be the highest right That's the highest through three episodes. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, J J Kidd, super sexy. That was fun. I like lights. Yeah, we can turn the lights off now. I like this though. They're nice. They're nice. It really it sets the mood. I I feel it's a very erotic setting. Yeah. To discuss a very erotic player. That was great. Once again, the this is what sets NBA campfire apart. Nobody else has pink mood lighting. Nope. And is firing off sexual induendos like a real gift for deep penetration. That one got me. That one broke me on that one. All right. Last category. The moment you liked this player the most. Vin, the honor is yours. Lead us off. Yeah, so again his his best I think time frame was probably his first ten years. But I really, really got to enjoy him in two thousand eight 'cause I fell in love with Team USA. and I'm not gonna pick two thousand eight, but that's when I really got an appreciation. that was a swerve. Yeah. That was where I got an appreciation of Jake. Okay. so then watching him and Dirk win in two thousand eleven. that is when he was at his peak for me. Probably not you. I could go out and on a limb and and say that's probably not gonna be your choice. Nope, two thousand eleven. Finals wasn't very fun. But I just felt like that was such a a really cool team as someone that didn't have a dog in the race. But it was all of these older guys coming together, that hadn't won before. And he was the he wasn't their best player, but like we said, on all of his teams, he might have impacted winning the most. and I just thought it was so cool the way that he got to end his career on on top, Doing it with guys like Marion and Pasia and Tyson Chandler and Dirk. All the guys of like his generation that had never won. And they were past their prime, so they weren't like this super team. They weren't ring chasing. but they came together and and they pulled off one of the biggest upsets in my my own opinion, but in my lifetime in the finals, 'cause I thought that they were gonna get absolutely maybe gentlemen sweet. But I was gonna say swept in that finals, even though they had such a r crazy run leading up to it. but they just seemed so outmatched against the Spurs. but like their decision making and their old man style game, I felt like they almost just like outsmarted the s the heat at that point. so I'll I'll go with two thousand and eleven. Good choice. I mean, fifteen years later and four LeBron titles later I don't harbor as much ill will toward that final series as I did in the moment. truly a special title run. and such an interesting capper on a season so memorable that we devoted a whole season one NBA campfire episode to it. There there's just so much shit that happens in the NBA calendar year from July 2010 to June 2011. And the last image is of Dirk and Jason Kidd getting those two titles that validate their careers that, you know, if they don't get that, neither one of them I don't think probably gets the respect that they rightfully deserve. So that's a great choice for Jason Kidd. And again, as someone in your position at that time who was Otherwise unbiased. I I totally get why that would be your choice for Jason Kidd. I went, I actually went post-playing career for Jason Kidd. November 27th, 2013. Kidd is recently retired from the NBA and he's coaching the Brooklyn Nets. A Brooklyn Nets team. With very high hopes after acquiring Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. but on this particular night, his team is losing, and there are under ten seconds left in the game, and Jason Kidd has used all of his timeouts. So what does Jason Kidd do? He uses that big basketball brain and he instructs Tyson Taylor, shout out Kansas Jayhawks. To bump into him so that his drink would spill on the floor. And as his drink is being cleaned up off the floor, kids diagramming a play from the bench and showing it to his team not at the bench so they could get a shot to potentially tie the game. Time with plenty of time. remaining. This is maybe the purest Jason Kidd moment that has happened in his entire NBA career. Because even after his playing career ended, he's still looking at basketball and thinking, there has to be an angle that nobody else sees. It would cost him $50,000. The shot wouldn't go in. His team would lose. He would be picked apart for this on numerous. ESPN shows. But in that moment, I saw that and thought, this guy is a motherfucking genius, and I love it. It wasn't Bill Belichick finding an obscure subsection of the NFL rule book. It was a grown man weaponizing a spilled beverage. And to me, that is just Perfect Jason Kid. I love when the drink spills and he kinda like looks around like, my god. Yeah, he's like, brother, you literally said hit me four seconds before you spilled your drink, but and like he didn't it was like he thought he was like a high school coach in a gym of like seventy five people and not in staple center with twenty thousand people and lord knows how many cameras. Yep. Yep, you know what but it's funny though, like as 'cause I was still playing at that point and I remember like when I saw that, I started like thinking about like when a coach is on the floor and then I think there was a college play where a coach is on the floor and an opposing player hits him and that's an automatic technical. So the rest of my playing career I was just focused on if there was an opposing coach on the floor, I was just gonna run him over. Like I just that I was looking for that. He taught me that. so yeah, it's just brilliant. Well he I I think when you say he taught you that He did that. He did he taught the oppos the opposing It was him and Mike Woodson. That's that's what it was.

Yes. He taught me both of those things. Yeah, because they must have showed it on ESPN when he got bumped. They probably showed like a highlight of what he did previously. that makes it so much better. So yeah. That's brilliant and I went like two straight years in college just looking for like if a col if their coach is on the floor, I'm running them over. Like so fast. Never happened, but every time down the floor I was like peeking to be like, Okay, could I get a tech here? Like that's Yeah. But it's just like those small little details that he nerded out about that really set him apart. You know, and those are the special players. Like you mentioned Belichick and and yeah, he did, you know, he he bent the rules and he did all that, but he's also probably the best winner in, you know, NFL history. So it's it's those guys that are willing to look at the rules. and I think like Chris Paul's that way too. He had a little bit of that thick mind. Yeah, I love that pick though. That I I in that moment I thought that Jason Kidd was going to be the best coach in the NBA. I really did. I thought this guy is going to be looking at the game from and like his career has been rocky as a head coach. but I I truthfully feel like he did a really good job in Dallas. I mean, he got them to an NBA finals. Yeah. And I think like that's that's Luca and Kyrie. But Built a really good defense in Dallas with Luka Doncic, who not the best or most committed defensive player, I think it's fair to say. I think he gets not enough credit with the development of Giannis, too, because I completely agree. Similar to like what he did to Cooper this year, he put the ball on Giannis's hands at a pretty young stage and I don't know of any other coach that really would have done that. And he did the same thing with Cooper and he got heat for it. but when And I don't get it. Yeah, when De these are those young years when you're not gonna be a playoff team, that's when you should be doing stuff like that. Sure. Once you have a contender, okay, yeah, we don't need to be putting this guy outside of his comfort zone. But when you're still developing him In and giving him reps in games that aren't meaningful or aren't in the postseason, that stuff's only gonna help him down the road. So I'm with you. Yeah, it's it's again, it's thinking, you know, a step ahead. It's it's something that seems to be like a trend with him is he's consistently able to think, you know, a step or two ahead of everyone else and and that's what's made him a consistent winner. he hasn't, you know, won at all, but he's always been there. And I think that like that's what made him and LeBron bond when they were in LA together. as when he was the assistant coach with the Lakers and the bubble. those those type of guys, Rondo, there's a special group that just they they think the game a little bit different and it's it's always they're just a step ahead. Yeah, I I what's really funny and to bring this whole thing full full circle, we talk about his ability to think one step ahead and it makes me think the what if that we talked about, or your hot take, was the one example of him not thinking one step ahead. Yep. And it's something that he's admitted he has regrets about. And you know, we get to the end of this episode and you just can't help but wonder what if he would have thought one step ahead and instead of credit to him, staying loyal, wanting to continue to build in New Jersey, that's great. They obviously have been to two finals in a row at that point. But if he would have I think had the same mindset of thinking one step ahead off the court. Yep. In that free agency decision as he did on the court, we'd probably be having a different conversation about him where, as you laid out, probably a top twenty-five player ever, clearly the class of that group of point guards from his era. And like, we'll take it even one step further. Like, okay, so he goes to the Spurs and three. Say he plays his career there. Is he the head coach now? I mean, like you you got like all like his whole life in a sense. You know, because he goes back to Dallas where he won a championship and you know, where he started his career. That's where he got kind of his rebirth of his coaching career after the Knicks and the Bucks like w would have San Antonio given him that if he had spent twelve years there. so to be able to coach Wemby. Like it it is. It's just crazy to think of all the different, you know, what ifs if he does decide to go there. Well, I think it's fitting that we end up back with the Spurs, since next episode we'll be talking about Tim Duncan. But before we wrap up, is there anything else you wanna add to the Jason Kidd campfire conversation or Anything else you want to add about Oz from American Pie or any of the amazing detours that we went on during this episode? Like there's g like a top four names that were mentioned today or things that were mentioned, like Casey Kasum, Marty Poissus, Keith Van Horn's hair gel, and Oz. And yes, we're talking about basketball. But that's the beauty of the campfire, man. Come join us, take a seat. We we would love the company. Subscribe, share, like, follow, do whatever you gotta do. We'll be back in a couple weeks to talk about Tim Duncan. Vin, as always, an absolute pleasure. We will be talking soon. Keep them marshmallows ready. The number one song in the USA on American Top 40 for the second week in a row is I Knew I Loved You by Savage Garden. Maybe it's in two wish some things you just don't question Like when you rise I see my future in an instant And there it goes I think of the And you will lunch before I get you. Everything can range you with tonight. I knew I loved before I get you. I will wait to