Marc Andreessen, inventor of the web browser, on creativity and innovation.
United States


00:00:01play this is the moment Brian koppelman thanks for listening I'm sitting at my desk today is the brilliant Marc Andreessen if your using internet you pretty much have him to Market as a mosaic and Netscape and is also among the leading the seas in the world is company Andreessen Horowitz and someone I've been lucky enough to become quite friendly with over the last few years and it's been very helpful a behind-the-scenes with billion so Marc Andreessen thanks for being there talk to me so I was just a bunch of PCS over the last few days and the highest I can compliment that I saw people give was it somebody was an abstract thinker and they understood systems and that's something I said about you and the New Yorker article that was written about you can you talk a little bit about what it means to be a systems thinker yeah so maybe he'll try to make it and start with concrete will start a creative and maybe make that.
00:01:01product was just kind of the center of what we do which is this like if you're not a systems thinker Basie do you say is I'm going to build a really great product right and then it's I'm going to have a really good product and it's going to be great cuz it's really great product write a motorcycle that's that's that's just the first step is it's not just about the product like it's about okay now the product was going to enter into the marketplace right in that they're they're going to be customers that are going to have a point of view on your product of their competitors to be trying to take you out with a better product than there are going to be you know reset you put a product to retail the retailers are going to try to gouge you and price and make your product manufacturer and the Press is going to write you know a review of your product maybe there was a really bad day and he's not a horrible horrible things and you know your employees are you know that your employees are hard work they build the first product and you assume they're going to be there with you to the second product and maybe they will maybe they won't cuz maybe somebody else will hire them myself you sort of any kind of creative Endeavor anything that we do in our world status this is enough for products for companies that they're launching into technically what's called a mathematical term complex
00:02:01the system the world complex adaptive system and it's it's it's sort of inherently it's not a predictable system is not a linear system it doesn't behave in ways that you can expect and that kind of by definition is a complex cuz it's just it's a many many many dimensions are variables like it changes like things changed your product changes the system in the system recalibrates around the product and so as a consequence like you just you have to do to launch a new type product have it succeed you have to have a keen awareness of all of the different elements of the system you have to have a willingness to engage in the entire system you know it's a gigantic problem generally if you're in denial about that right if you're not willing to take him system terms right it's so many similarities between what people in your world doing people in my world do when do you want to let that stuff I've two questions one is head of someone trained himself to become a systems thinker but to is like a super verse if that's the second one
00:03:01when should a Creator in ideator begin thinking of all of those potential impediments or how to flip does impediment to a string and when should they be trying just to ideate causes and effects of a service of field of psychology and sociology and there was just a study that just was put in last week he was like Fine Arts riversmart let's say but even for like a crate of success rate of success of afraid of work is it caused more by the quality of work itself or by The Social Network of the artist is this at right the friends of the artist and what you find is a lot of pure creatives will will think about that question and they'll find a defensive because if the whole point of being a creator
00:04:01the Creator is I have a vision and I create and it sort of a you know it's sort of a team's going to self evident obviously the world is going to appreciate what what what I create like it's you it's you know if it's a sufficient quality level like it it's the world is not appreciate is the world's the more pragmatic view is that art is even just your art art is in the mind about the Creator and the viewer like what is the create a value of a painting if nobody sees it or if when people see it they don't like it so that the pure creative would like to believe that's the viewers Falls right that the audience is false an event for you know people like this for the timing is wrong we should talk about time because that's what I X Factor in the in the way the systems work as you when I was a crater in the form of when I was building software or now that I'm worn in the role of unifying it spring creators
00:05:01creativity is the climate of exercise between the crater in the in the audience and I and I think that's very natural I think it's a cute it's a system since the human system right and so and so therefore it's a responsibility in my distress and willing to be depressed about that everyone is a card about that and willing to do things required to get working papers and that's not my field and so this is a really big difference between success and failure right in Detroit for what we do it's like that or who expects the market to just automatically appreciate the product is the classic, if I build a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to my door is Yoko Ono they want like the world is busy people already have stuff going on people don't wake up in the morning and say God I can't wait until I find out what this person I've never heard of in California has invented like that's not how the world works you have to inject yourself in the role and so in our world a successful people are the ones were able to do the creating and are able to then going to push you to the world is
00:06:00Joshua put a ding in the universe the people who are actually willing to carry the idea for in proselytizing evangelize it and argue it have an advocate for it and make sure people see it make sure it succeeds answer there either you have to be able to find somebody who could do it with you or for you Irving azoff for Don Henley and Glenn Frey or Albert Grossman for Dylan to complicated question but when you look at someone when artists like when Hemingway would mythologized you know if you read a moveable feast like I guess he was in the salon all these people but who that was in the middle of night he was in the middle of a network though he wouldn't have thought of it that way probably showed you some people are just instinctively do that as part of their art is the broadcasting of there aren't so Brian Eno has a term you may have heard called seniors have you heard of your this her lovey nose work training message from Kevin Kelly and Sir Brian others to talk about this when I think it's right which is Eustis it was called. It is it's amazing quiz it says It's amazing coincidence how when there's a major new artistic movement
00:07:00shein is quite literally a scene and so it mean when was part of the scene if there's any book talks about this right just kids talked about it in a great way to start a New York to that time whatever Mike Love is over the years understanding kind of how this is worth how creativity Works entertainment Second City Saturday Night Live come out and on in the mid-seventies and it was like shows up on TV and internet in 75 people like oh my God this is like a brand new thing like where did this come from and turns out it was all these people who knows you know Steve Chevy Chase and Gilda Radner Bill Murray and you know John Belushi noticed it missing you fight you find this like, how many such a great example of what you just see the state that you never would like there was there's the Judd Apatow seem like there's a set of those people there's like the Seth Rogen you know if they're at the center of these networks and then he sees people than spinoff
00:08:00they do their own work and it became become very successful you know the most recent Tina Fey Amy Poehler kind of thing was a scene I guess also put your absolutely is it a is it a you know what it what was it is it is it is it is at cuz he's afraid of these are clearly creative Geniuses on their own but like they weren't out in the wilderness and where are the article I saw the art I didn't read the study but I saw the Times article about it was that artist will recognize other part of what happened to sample vinyl fact is that if you're good in what are the rules if you're really good at this stuff don't necessarily think about people always think about the buyer will it was like how can I get an agent how can I get a buyer as opposed to how can I show my work to other artists who can help platform it and that's what I see from that article was that that that in fact it's not how can I it's the best way to get an agent is to have some artist who thinks you're great who's represented by that agent Television right do you think system
00:09:00systems thinking example of just to try to put in my world a bit right he did come here come to New York and then enter and take over this this scene that exists calculate that stuff or you think there are people who just naturally do it so I think it's a complex adaptive system it has feedback loops but a complete feedback loops and if you don't some people get them in the position of the feedback loops just a little bit like in a lot of these feels like this recognition because recognition success begets success reputation because reputation it's a positive feedback loop when you see it you see this other day we were talking about this to about one of the challenges that Twitter in terms of growing it right is that the people who are verified and have a good following are able to break quickly make her following bigger butt for someone who's
00:10:00starting it's really hard now to amass in an audience and then I have these they have these feedback loops and so it and it's kind of the people involved in doing the work is this like there's two ways to look at that one is oh my God life isn't fair like this is just one of my late in a horrible and we should figure out a way to Electric form a system so there's a much more equal distribution of you know if it returns in everyone else anyway you look at it is it is it it's the human system we do care what other people think we do care what the other experts your point we care with the other experts think we do care what our friends think and we responded those things and part of what makes makes something a creative project valuable is effective people appreciate it and just like the nature of it as people can attend appreciate the things that other people appreciate it and so it is what it is and therefore if you're going to be accretive professional you should lead into that you should you should take that seriously and in you should you should consider that
00:11:00challenge ask him it because I think that because my path is bitterness write it and you see this in the value of a project I'm working in like nobody sitting on a shelf somewhere and they're just furious right now and it's like what have you done to try to inject this end of the world will nothing or why not will because it's my work is Venus and people should appreciate him it's their fault the right idea what what is an individual that will poison you write that will destroy you yes right and so that's the that's that you know in this way you have to be hitting you have to be really careful in these things whether you're talking about Society where the type of individual my view you want if you want to send individual you want to think I can do this I can go change the world go affect thinks it's going to bring you and you're saying you shouldn't just rely on the fact that your work alone privately will do it
00:12:00should be proactive in trying to get it out there what are the best way to get made my light like that's so unfair to people are people who like try to make movies in San Francisco like it's just like it should be easier to do this portion Number the Stars build Silicon Valley unfair that you can't you don't have equalizer doing this if you're into pick up if if if the job is to get in Mash into the system right into the network and then basically what you want to do some individuals want to get yourself into the scene to get you got to get in the mix right in an intense and if you're not willing to get in the mix it's not their fault it's your fault right
00:13:00what did Van Gogh's other than Van Gogh to paint those paintings and feel that feeling but his inability to talk to people the work I did him some good but not nearly the good it could have done it right in the same universe Brian koppelman who's got a whole bunch of Genius cream place on the shelf and you know if somebody's going to be able to go see him out but like I'm open to the possibility that person exists that I don't know what to do with that like that you have to find a way to protect yourself but the challenges as you know often times the approach that people make has the opposite effect of what they hoped right when they have a product and someone has an idea they see you in a mall and they come up right it's like
00:14:00that's another piece of it is how do you manage that so that's the other thing so there was a great in our world there was a great deal with shrimp for the 23rd boss as you know I have a great idea for a startup all I need is for you to actually like right to go do all the work and then build it says the technical term for what you have is nothing to say like I have an idea but it's such a good idea I can't tell anybody about it right cuz they'll still mad yes right in a lease in our world like literally it is therefore what you now have is nothing there's another guy forget to set up another great great lights but he said that if you have a really really great idea like you you can shout it to the you can chat with the Raptors and like so it's going to take it seriously like shortage in effect by the way many people actually have the same ideas and by the way my daddy was arrested recently obvious like
00:15:00like I'm a computer that you have security briefcase you can hold your headlights on William Gibson and I mean everybody's had the extra track and Star Trek Star Trek and I didn't get Steve Jobs anywhere it was everything else that he did to make that a reality and get it done actually in actually get it in the people's hands the matter. So yeah it's it's it's this is this attitude attitude it says I'm at you know I'm a finder with an idea right doesn't mean anything like that you know we got an unlimited number of those who we can we can we can we learn how do you think do you think one can learn to do both things to be a to be the Creator founder Creator and the salesman of your own work like how do you how does one learn to do that yes so first of all I do think but but this way this is where I think this was thinking exactly helpful so we have a lot of it so we have a lot of soda fountain chair light classical engineers and they didn't know they should have classical introverts and the idea of having to go kind of a cell
00:16:00is like an Anthem I like the idea of you know they've got these kind of I would say Miss perceptions of the salesman is somebody was wearing a shiny suits on Tuesday I'm telling somebody something that they don't need and so which is actually the role of sales is at least in our industry is not to sell something don't need help somebody by what they actually do need and we're going to a long conversation about that you're actually really good sales people in Silicon Valley to make a lot of money becomes very personally bought it to their customers and up going to the customer is in a weddings you know to the kid weddings like they become like very close allies to the careers of their customers who have long conversation with that but it's a real form of value-add to the nearest look like computers but there is a system for there is a system for dealing people you can engineer a system for dealing with people and actually when you work with top and salespeople you find us they have incredibly elaborate like very real systems like very
00:17:00very very very thoroughly thought-through kind of abstract systems of how they basically run like a large-scale sales rep and how to deal with the customer and they buy a me by your engine your hat on and think about it as an engineering problem and you'll be able to figure it out like it's in a by the way it's not you know it's not as hard as especially if somebody's here like you can't figure this stuff out right now you have to want to know if it's because the typical approach both of you and me is a screenplay in fact you said when you pointed us to that that piece about artist talking artist because I won't read anything that anybody sends me random a ride with someone contact me online please read my screenplay but no but not for a variety of reasons one it's not in there is nothing that since I stood me to read it that makes it seem they haven't seen
00:18:00they haven't entice me by the who they are yet right if it now if they're on Twitter and I'm on Twitter and somebody I know has put them in my life and they they have some sort of credibility because of the assault some kind of social proof then that might get me to have a conversation where I guide them into what they could do to put themselves in a position at someone to read their stuff but if one of my writer friends or producer friend or an agent says you got to check this thing out here the reasons why I'm immediately going to check it out because they've become elevated to a place that it's worth in engaging with it later on down the road I want to just sue you into that is nothing new that you can do about it so he can be taught which is that's that's an encouraging you have to you have to want to learn how to do it
00:19:00if you have to have a some kind of personality like if you're going to hate it there are founders were they could make it actually totally understand the process of sales and they're still just going to be so introverted is an example that they're just going to hate the interaction and they're just going to go can't wait till I get you upset by these people how do you talk to people who have that chip on their shoulder like they look at someone like Elon as like well hey that guy is just a moment I do know what I mean like what they do you want actually used to tell us the Edison versus Tesla thing right so so it's actually in Addison today so I don't you know Addison is credited for letting all this stuff and then there was this guy is the beta for AC vs. DC electricity is ultimate power grid that we can have the front of DC that's much better and Tesla had that idea in this whole thing is so there's this kind of man
00:20:00brunch near me of the show man a Tesla with the unappreciated genius and it's like it's a perfect example this is like that stuff like it wasn't that it wasn't that hard to figure out if there were lots of people in that are of it and wanted to fancy I was an example Addison we were raised on this by owner lets you layer or one of the funniest electricity or can you take this into account part of what you're taking into account is the Messianic abilities that the person had a busy There's 7 billion people on planet Earth whose time has already fully allocated so right and so there has to be something about another work has to speak for itself what we can do about that but then somebody has got to pick up the talk about the workings Stanford South excuse for having the right yes right
00:21:00Steve Martin born Standing Outside The Spectacular Spider-Man in the NFL Eminem and other things and the thing says it's very straightforward about to be so good they can't ignore you right I often say riding on tonight when people complain to me on Twitter how to say well this is unfair so this is this is where you and I have a lot of similarity in this one and it is one of the areas because I say it's unfair if you're a woman of color wanting to make it as a screenwriter it's really hard the deck is stacked against you because the buyers are
00:21:40however once it's unfair once we acknowledge that all you can do is write an undeniable script that's the only thing you can do is write something undeniable that breaks through it. That's unfair why was it is one thing you can do the other thing you can do is get yourself in Racine so find a CVS great I am my own life experiences Dave and I wrote this thing in a basement as you know I just talked about a new podcast but the your idea that you should consciously get into a you should contact the get into a scene is a and I know you sent Brian Eno. But it is really as you're saying it to me it is it is smart it makes a lot of sense and then the small fish has the best product anybody's ever seen
00:22:37and meet Robert mapplethorpe the first day that she's in New York and then the two of them end up in more like in the world that Warhol and those people are all in and it lives at the Chelsea Hotel in a bounce around with those people had to do the genius work but then when she did people were there to appreciate it so I thought there'd be more gray. If you'll talk about like raising I should like venture capitalist they say we got to run on these gauntlets to do it or like it so we know whatever there go they finally dying to find the next Google like it's right it's all you have a choice for God's sake figure out a way to build it and bring it to us please to get to use somebody has to be credibly recommended
00:23:37set the time I talk to so this goes directly over so I can see you describe the process of getting somebody to you to read somebody's been playing and basically it's a referral over a. Of time you've impressed me somehow yourself exactly certain people versus like the reputation precedes them take the picture by the way you discover that that that's a real thing starting I talk to friends of mine at one of the top firms in an industry that's not what it's your old Mentor for a minute one of these legendary firms and he said in the entire history of that your friend they find out exactly one start a pitch that came in cold right over 50 years now they funded like a thousand that came in warm they fighted one that became a call
00:24:37the test with a capital T the test and the test is basically the test to get to a circuit nebc is can you get one warm introduction just one can you in our world it in a way it's whatever with us in our world it's an angel investor it's a seed funder it's a professor it's a manager at one of the big existing tech companies write someone you think is smarter yes somebody I know some people but there's thousands of those people out there who I will take that call feel like I could call you and tell you for example by the way I won't let me just say clearly I will not have this world says I got this kid I think you should meet us I guess I'll take that meeting so it's like just one right inside the test is can you get one person to refer you right and it's like okay like it and think of the number of ways
00:25:37crave you could go get a job and you could go impress a manager and then it manager makes the Clinton incredibly good that is an incredibly good test by the way if you can't pass the test that test to get a warm inbound referral intervention firm then what that indicates is you were going to have a hell of a time as an entrepreneur you were going to hate being an entrepreneur cuz guess what you have to do what's your is Mike really easy but I was originally from us is on the pain begins and the pain is trying to get other people to say yes to you is to the pain is specifically is trying to get people to work for you and that they all have choices so you got somebody else is trying to get a customer to buy a product and the customers are overwhelmed with new products they could buy it so you have to get too attached to sell something to somebody and then some point you have to raise money again right and if you raise money for new people eat around at some point you have to go get somebody else to say it so if you can't get a warm inbound us how are you possibly going to be able to function in the environment in which you're not you're not going to be operating where you're going to have to get all these other people to do stuff to do stuff for you and so that's the thing
00:26:37there are no it for a pro intensive purposes I'm open to the idea that there is the Undiscovered genius out there how many hour ones have you found it never I mean Zero from an elevator pit from a summer walking up to you from what you find it because what you find if you get faster if you find yourself face-to-face with your fine as they had what you find is the reason that they can't pass the test is cuz they have the chip on the shoulder at least I'm free chips on shoulders there's a lot we both have a chip ice should not have to stoop to do this stuff right I shouldn't have to get the warmest place to sell in the world do you have to be willing to walk into a room and and and do the things you do not look nice, so you don't know when listening to this podcast
00:27:31you don't Mark you didn't come from wealth and you didn't come nobody likes her hand all this to you you and when I serve bleeding in the podcast said if your using internet it's cuz mark mean I'm not being hyperbolic you invented the first available browser that allowed people to browse the internet invented Mosaic and then you know that the Netscape which became the most widely used the browser and where everything that's happened since you prank him with an interface that people could use to surf the Internet how did you find a way to get your when did you start to realize that you thought differently than most of your peers and like you know what I mean how do we know that we're ryderwear to lose Northport am I spending is when you realize you saw the world differently how did you stay saying about it I mean the answer the questions I went to work so I got a job
00:28:31degree programs in the country and then they rank the starting salaries for each level in school longer than I had to what was the what was the salary ranking top salary down for the degrees and I was like okay and I was like okay what are the top ee schools and was like MIT Stanford all those are obviously Out Of Reach for people where I come from you mean you just decided that that was amazing nope nope no possibility whatsoever and nobody ever has and it is not it's not it's not a possibility and so number three was University of Illinois wish I was like oh the cross the border by 6 hours away and it's a it's a state school and so I have to I have to pay out-of-state tuition yeah but it was much cheaper than you know what the private schools
00:29:31so I want to buy them because they got a job the job I got was a man I just like absolutely love it that's my kind of first time I was getting like actually pay the lick read codon and then work on things in the physics department in Illinois and then that that'll fit which one internship with IBM and then that ultimately led to a job NCSA which is the the the center where we did all the work on my sack environment with all this going to be able to do you know we had to basically have the modern internet at Illinois there were four universities are there were four universities in the US that I had gotten funded in the 80s to basically be effectively build they were supercomputer Center is it was on several computers cost $25 and then they basically
00:30:31El San Diego Illinois and Pittsburgh they were actually the modern we have like a modern internet we have high-speed Broadband couldn't even some of the dorms you know there were super computers there were all these graphical workstation source of the time was it was a big deal until there was a part of that is a fertile environment work with people who were interested in this and then and then there was Sunset Resort seems to have the notion in your head that you were going to change the world even really didn't talk for like I think people who want to do creative work like the sort of how Grand can the thoughts be like for real for real we were trying to just solve a specific problem or did you have a sense that if we do this work we might actually be able to influence the world so it's all right then but I have it now so it was a complex adaptive system problem and then it was as follows which is because
00:31:31call this Federal funding for the supercomputer Center so we had a lot of the modern internet running in Illinois the students could use the faculty use that the researchers use in my my world my birthday was the Assumption was that he was there the Assumption was that you would use it while you're there and then when you leave you would stop using it right right so you would be on email is there the Assumption was email to email the time you'll be on email where on the University use for it even when you're gone don't you email write a real world like it was an inconceivable concept right and so literally you would graduate and you would go by if you see you in the store when you graduate or have to have a piece of siding on your job and it wouldn't be looking for their nap cuz why would you hook up there at like there was no point to it right so the overwhelming assumption was you use it here and then you wouldn't you wouldn't use in the real world as part of the cultural divide time between like else better than any other than their culture to culture and I'm in a quart of corporate world and so there was just this massive my favorite song
00:32:31I got a little corner store by my way to the Blizzard most most nights on end in the morning first issue Wire magazine right inside my magazine for me like maybe 3 so I'm like okay great I buy it and I'm like okay it's pretty much what I go back to my little Bob is the basement Mission superhighway on this and that digital tsunami and this and that and Holcomb FS2 the whole thing didn't mention the internet there was no mention of the internet remember the beginning of wire really well for right now
00:33:30it was a self-contained environment you would get on the internet to know if I was at home and my modem you would that was my modem dialing into only their office by then that will grow well it wasn't what I thought you didn't you let me log into each BBS separately for Country surprise for you when you were building Mosaic were you when this was happening the conventional wisdom was so against it was a little bit
00:34:30Genesis like I just like I read the magazine I was like okay my work doesn't let me not my wife
00:34:37which I'm operating does not matter if it's not even like it's just like okay and I'm just like I don't know what like I'm just a kid like I don't know what else I just go back to work like I can't do any of the other stuff I'm not at Time Warner building in ODI domain tractor TV I'm not at Viacom building whatever VR thing they were doing like I just am working on this internet thing and even though they don't respect it is something I can work on so I'll just work on it and so I tweeted it didn't really start we didn't really start to get positive feedback until you know start of spring 93 who took the feedback Cycles we got it so we did get us we did get a positive feedback cycle going quickly and the positive feedback so I basically was not surprising but like more people who had browsers then the more people who would put up web pages the more people to put up with pages and more people would want to have browsers guess how I started to experience a customer support email
00:35:37one of the gifts you at where you able to immediately go like with this is good project but it was fun and SF grant that aren't enough to the grant that we've gotten that weekend trip we're able to do that at the center have done this is interesting we start to get all these customer support emails and I'm like I got a choice I can either like answer all the emails or I can write more code and so yeah she wrote a Grant application to the NSF to be able to hire a customer service team to be able to actually like how people I get on the internet do all this stuff and guess what the reception was for that grand theft flashing imagine finding a customer support operation like that something but as soon as you rephrase it to
00:36:37this is the feedback loop think positive feedback loop preseason Max at the time you bought him about the Box they didn't have the software required to get on the internet so but there was enough to man that the book publisher started to write books about how to internet and those books would have a floppy disk in the back of the book just got this offer you needed to load of Cecily you get online took some of the load off that I can just say you should have as far to go
00:37:15how find talk about the New Yorker
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00:38:38Tricia question you can answer this as how you thought or what you've noticed in entrepreneurs because it ties into the way and a very small way how I think what I've experienced is a Storyteller and that is what does it feel like to have hauled two versions of the world in your head at the same time that is the way the world is in the way that it's going right. You're living in two different worlds at the same time have you seen that manifest and how did manifest 4u so this is the difference between a vision and a hallucination Hallucination is other people can see the vision well that's the question right so so so the time arises that's the thing about this is there something a little bit like the best artists are the best. Bernards live in the future they actually can already Envision I get some point it may be don't have it
00:39:38some point you like okay like I'm going to put this thing I've ever eaten every reason to like it like everything everything everything you use it like at some point it's going to take and I can so I can sort I can start and we didn't start to develop over time you start to feel like I could really matter this could be really bugging you start that kind of live in the world in which it's sort of already happened yes that's what I'm going to say yes and yes because then it's almost like a whole world is you don't people don't go through the effort and usually when you were building the thought that we does a creative Endeavor nobody nobody does a great
00:40:38difference between having a dream and having a lecture is chasing your personal passion and then personal contribution like deciding that your dream is used as utility Beyond yourself so this is something we have to give a commencement speech where he can I develop this trying to give the speech and route route much people up so basically rrview is that if I love your passion thing is like an incredibly destructive meme out of the hippie movement of the 60s and you have to Define passion passion of myself and what I am on planet Earth II do I have to express myself as a take your pick musician and author writer of remember a basket Weaver a whatever it happens to be an organic farmer whatever the thing that's my passion and it's my pet my pet pageant it's it's it's it's it's me it's about me it's a it's a it's a it's a self-centered view of the world this is what's going to make me happy this is what my calling is this is the thing is going to actualize me and if I can actually if I can if I can find my passion and I will be validated right and I
00:41:38be a success within my own psyche and if I can't I'll be frustrated and angry and bitter and all the rest of it and the problem is is it like the problem is like that goes back to her earlier discussion it like it takes is given the rest of the world can appreciate your passion right and like I said like the rest of the world is busy like maybe they will make sure they want and so the way we always encourage people to think about it is it is basically follow the area in which you can make a contribution so it's not about you it's about other people than unselfish version of that something for another day's what can I do this going to make other people's lives better wear what can I do this going to be a service no value to them right in the end of the question right it's okay well then how am I going to know what because they're going to actually they're they're going to buy us like about that they're going to pay money so you're saying measure I don't think it's that I think they I think your passion and your passion is inherently selfish review and I think that's you think it's destructive to think it to the individual to think about it scratching a passionate yes
00:42:38even more satisfied by something and then they have to try to make it better and make it better is everybody now uses the code right and that maybe that sounds especially for people who already had a successful sounds like those at the same thing you get this thing in the advice industry right and we should get a lot of self-selected advice except one be successful how can I be a millionaire never pay taxes on $1000000 significantly dollars right at the point being like it's just what it what I just find it a lot of people it's not that there's nothing to the Past ideas just with a lot of people in it it leads to the exercise or Passion of the world has not been automatically crochet passionately Spade least bitterness and resentment and Envy in anger and it just least it's out it's it's very sabotaging and philosophically
00:43:38it was not just a bunch of disassociate individuals like we we are we are we are a society know it is a loop right riding billions made me incredibly happy and I do say in the writing is the hat in the writing alone or with Dave but in the writing
00:43:54that isn't a way to happiness that it gets other than but then that's the one sort of Vestige is purely should have said a pure emotion and you're right that is a sitz if it's selfish but but the fact that it's then I get the feedback that it it it it's making people happy and that's how you get the money and then the money is what you used to do more of what you also become bitter but it again these things are all like what is ferrous called minimum effective dose and so the minimum effective dose might be keep your job do your thing and you work a half hour a day to figure out if your passion is going to be up to this contribution so I think I think I natural maybe I'm just like it is right and
00:44:54proper for it to be evaluated by other people right like I would like to know that other people but other people think of that I would like to know what that they appreciate it I would like to see that they use it I would like to see if it has a square with your with the fact that you hold like I said square with willingness to make bets that go against what the majority say this is the old Steve Jobs like nobody ever asked for a Macintosh problems in the night in the 90s it was working to do with a customer wants we're a customer-centric organization because that's not what you're saying or car I mean people were on horses and they thought they were fine nobody has Rihanna look like nobody like they didn't know they didn't know why didn't they know it's not their job to know you're busy
00:45:53we're busy people have their own lives around dreaming up new product ideas somebody else built right there's a not doing it and so you have to you have to invent it and you have to bring it to them but without the attitude of you know I now get to dictate to you write how you receive it right so how does that square with this idea people evaluating it like how do you know that right cuz I guess it's easier language for somebody internally I have a feeling and in and I'm an exercise my passion that it is to have the belief in a country in their ability to contribute how do you square that contributors just like okay it's almost like a spirit of generosity can Envision that there are people who are otherwise busy can I earn their people who are like TV fans and watching TV shows that really like TV show some kind of vision that I might be able to make a TV show that they might enjoy more than the ones already watching that makes that there is no analog for a previously in the beginning
00:46:53most people getting a lot of collect many rejection go to Summit X wacka did you were in the wrong line of work right but so how do you balance those ideas how do you square this idea that you're going to run through a lot of rejections before success with hey make sure you check to Market to Market to make sure you're getting some positive reinforcement Square so Sean Parker says eventually you start to like the taste right like there's a marketing of like Tech startups is like a glamorous thing and I should die if you don't agree with that but for the most part like they are actually brutally brutally difficult talked about you are every single day as a sort of fat are you trying to get employees to join you who have many other options most of them are telling you know you're trying to get customers to test your product to buy your products they are busy they have others have been the most of them tell you know you're trying to raise money most of the
00:47:53troops if he sees tell you now like generally is Justin run all day long does it take matters no no no no no no no and it was basically I bet they're wrong at wall is it safe to text you to dinner or something everyone there has to be a part in this is the Chipmunks with the chip on the shoulder comes in handy best we think it's like basically screw up like I I know I'm right I know they're wrong at least I have a strong idea in that direction I'm a limo to fight my way through it by the way it's like he realized I'm telling you right like it's yes or no for a living Sprite like a friend of mine wants is the best that ever is a second prize as you know
00:48:53any other channel to put in front of himself as he's really easy cuz it wasn't about love with rejection and son at some point you can come from with rejection so that that's like an attitudinal thing right then you know they're in their stick to their shoe size for the customer didn't ask for Macintosh but once I got the cancer McIntosh there lots of feedback like the same as slow as expensive as the spirit of generosity like if they're giving you the if they're giving you the feedback in the spirit of okay this is very promising but it's not quite right for me yet because of XYZ like that's generosity on their part that you train yourself to handle the criticism or do we just naturally good at processing it cuz some people, like I know if I had trained myself I think it was it was it was it was it was so it was so universally accepted even got out here to even the night before it was so University you so universally accepted that the internet was not going to be a thing that I kind of have gotten used to it so I came out here I was meeting my partner Jim Clark
00:49:53he was later found at the time I thought you had decide to start a company and so it was like a big deal cuz this is like the endless Litany of experts and politicians and everybody in big companies like Microsoft as a joke like this thing's absurd and these other things and so we actually tried to start a at the time version want to try to start it interactive TV software company cuz everybody all the experts said that was going to be the biggest company that was actually building a lot easier act or TV systems are so we try to start a company to do that we actually took us going to be in contact with the Apple Market where they went out and kind of in a market survey like okay how many DirecTV systems are actually alive actually working an extra zero it's really okay wait like hold on a second like this this is not actually that you believe it's correct that nobody else believes in like the secret
00:50:53turn up screen record TV was nothing special secret you have it when you know it your idea is worth doing when it feels like it's a special secret that you have ever going to freak out when it shows up you know it's about that it's it's it's not even so much you're right about somebody something it's more like they can't even believe it is inconceivable that it could be true I guess it's just a conventional ways to become so strong by Dire for what today might be called Xbox Live or PlayStation Network sort of you know interactive gaming and then tendo is coming out with this great new that Nintendo 64 just like a real computer for gaming console for the first time I said we said let's build a gaming internet for gaming networking online service for Nintendo 64 then we go to that event N64 was going to come out for two years and then who even knew it was going to work and so that was not going to be a thing it's a process of elimination
00:51:53what's our way back to like I guess it's going to have to be the internet like going it's the only thing I actually got 10 for it and it's been completely dismissed by The Establishment but it's actually working at that that's actually one of the great themes of of our best-case scenario for us is the thing that's working everybody's laughing at like that's that's our catnip brighten even if it's a small but if you get little blips you can take your encouragement in very microdose's medicine Ash recommended the next are you looking for the or the to a feedback loop which we have at the browsing web server computers have the Mac was going to work when every time somebody bought a Mac it made it more likely somebody would build a PC
00:52:53for the max effort if you suffer made it more likely to be to buy a Mac since he said he's a bitch called the network effect operating system is so and so and you don't recycle right kind of thing and so are they just because you see them really doesn't mean they all get big like that's not that's not the how the world Works they don't all get there but all of the ones that got big started small initial cuz you say Mike microdosing of the feedback and so and so basically you're early evidence that is going to have that kind of kind of phenomenon and then everybody laughing at it is awesome cuz that's means it's our consensus right and that means it's like if you like people literally do not believe in it and then and then is consequence if it does work if it keeps growing there will be an inversion some point all of a sudden entire world will go
00:53:53I saw that this this agent do you know it where they they said to him we might not need you but when we need your we're going to need your really badly we're really going to need you like you're going to be completely not hireable and then suddenly you're going to be the biggest movie star in the world and that that was four pieces of Arctic let's do a little ZipRecruiter business which is fun to do
00:54:18look hiring is challenging I know it because I'm always hiring people for the show I'm hiring writers and there is not the equivalent of ZipRecruiter to hire writers to work in your writer's room so yeah I already challenged you for this one place you can go we're hiring a simple fast and smart but you're growing business connect a qualified candidates that place moment look ZipRecruiter center jobs over 100 of the web bleeding job or tailed stop there but they're powerful matching technology zip code against thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invite them to apply to your job is out of your system in ZipRecruiter analyzes each one and spot lights at top candidates so you never miss a great match so pretty so effective 80% employee supposed to tip recruiter quality candidate through the site than the first day right now might as just try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address zip moment that's moment ZipRecruiter.
00:55:18slash moment ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire
00:55:27just a couple more things you want to tell me I think like the person we met that you love to be proven wrong that one of the things you love is to have a core convinced ideology about something and then to be able to accept in a Flash that he talked a little bit about that about why that's valuable and about how you either trained yourself or just wear that way and what that what the games are of living that way so it's aspirational
00:55:51Jester actually try to figure out why this is some people treat their ideas like their children and I've actually tried I've actually come back I've been doing a lot of reading light psychology and Behavioral Sciences about the behavioral economics is about this idea we fall in love with the red to this case I think it literally is it seems like we're turning radius like I told her we I think we're literally training ideas like there are children so I think you have everything I think in The evolutionary context in which we are genetics were developed and changed over the last fifty thousand years a thousand years ago there weren't really ideas they were just children
00:56:35write like you're not sitting around the campfire speculating on like abstract there is a life you're like trying to get through the freaking day and then you got this infant and you're desperately trying to get the answer to life and so we got this like there's some territorial protective like this is my thing this is my Offspring this is my legacy this is my this is everything valuable and important to me is like right here in my hands and is going to die without me and like my God I have to have to be protected you change your entire priority ordering like neurological changes so basically is I think literally what happened is like literally we now it now we live in a world of ideas like the whole costume ideas come from China right now he was somehow showed up on our wiring but like we're still we still have this kind of Legacy wiring in the Legacy wiring basically says okay now this ideas might like it like this is the thing I believe in I want to protect I want to Foster I want to grow my passion and then it's like
00:57:35and it gets up here in a Flash if it will get you know she start to get people get defensive defensive defensive reaction why are you defending an abstract idea like nothing's going to happen to you right but you're right about what it feels like when you go look for that there's a problem so here's the problem is like if your me like most ladies are wrong and so at some point the thing I figured I started doing the math test they say it okay to take whatever algorithm her system I have for trying to figure out what to have in the future I'll whatever set of rules after I've been kind of how the world works out to predict things turns out they're a bunch of b c very smart BCC turned on Google and I know that already
00:58:35take me to work and so we just can't organize like you know there's all this you know weird stuff out there and you just can't take it doesn't work if it works you make money on it. Business is just no way the view of search at the time was literally searched searched at the time there was actually a business model was it was a lost leader for the portal business leader and that you actually like you actually have you spend money for about a search engine that you lost money on Advertising concert at Edwards and so literally like I have friends who like I have friends who were very successful be season pass on Google and part of it was like there's no business model I just think it's just going to burn money forever never make any money
00:59:35I want to start the thing and so it's like the back test is like okay apply all your fancy Thursday at graduations you just missed Google yourself a pat on the back and in the purpose of the back to make you be open to having your assumptions question is that I don't know that they're actually rbc's they can predict whether or any given thing is going to succeed or fail.. Including us like I'm not even sure that's actually part of the value would provide actually think that might that might literally be there over contribution process say that it's like we have we have no stretch what you make decision isn't that what you make a decision based on maybe not actually in the people business sniff out of the people that may be the point of snapping at the people is the people are going to be the ones were going to go through all the stuff out right now
01:00:32exactly is a great VC there's a legendary BC and Arthur Rock from the 60s through the 90s who funded in Thailand Apple in like he was like one of the main maybe he was like a huge using figure of the era and still is a person he wrote a paper at the end of his Venture career and he analyzed his results and there's there's two ways to make mistakes in venture-capital there's the I found something that fails and then there's the I don't want something to succeed right and it actually turns out they symmetry of risk-return I find something that fails it's really not a problem I don't want something CiCi's reroute as a problem right and so he analyzed you can quit if you would have had better results had he shredded all the business last upon receipt and never read them and only work against the resumes only work against the resumes clearly been evaluating the people he would have makes sense to me Angela
01:01:31but a lot of people believed they could have made a picture 1995 right you've got how about how about we do this how about somebody how about somebody wants to buy something on the Internet so badly but they go to the post office I buy a money order which is the only way to pay for things on eBay when it flooded in then let's imagine someone else to buy something so much that they're going to send the money order the person who claims to be selling it right and then that person is actually going to send send her memory may seem crazy to you I remember being really nervous to use eBay the first time I used it to remember being really nervous about it like wait I don't understand. I remember being like this seems nuts one of the one of the jokes and then turn it into straight to your house right and it overnight Airbnb write do not send people money in the mail right without knowing whether that was on dates that I Crossing at the end of a really going to
01:02:30sure don't want to date with somebody be online cuz he says it's like these rules like they're not they're their only slow useful right and there's only so much you can assume it's so therefore but but at the same time so that last part 1 at the same time you can't just then go in a motorbike okay if I give us I don't know when you just shrug and everything right here you can't have no point of view because then you won't be able to differentiate between everything and so where we've come out as weak weak strong views weekly help very strong point of view just going to kind of guide our search and it through the Landscaping tell us going to want to focus on some theory that we've developed but then let's be really open to the disconfirming evidence that the people peace and we can talk about this is I guess when those come is what's the term you guys when someone starts a company supposed to do something and then they realize it's supposed to be something else stays it's called the pivot
01:03:30playwright was called the fuck up Rusty spotted right so but like slack was a different business right but you were an example we're betting on the purse is that one of the things that you now on you're the one we were totally wrong about the business but we were totally right that this guy Stewart writer said Stuart was going to figure it out so this is part of the pay off part of the payoff of a betting on the best people if you can figure out what that they are they will get you to the promised land they're going to work is going to work which is the feedback Stewart. But we can talk about and then they're going to have the wherewithal psychology motivation all the rest of it to be able to Skilled how much leadership ability to bring people with them to be able to get to the other day
01:04:27Amazon I have no idea how this would work so you've witnessed in a part of it you know you've led a group of people you've raised money and you've marched you've made the assault and then you look up and arrows are through everybody's chats how do you counsel people and how does the pivot actually because all of us can it ties into this emotional connection to our idea how do you Teach & Talk About to a Founder but you still think about her was actually in the failure proven to you they still have it and how do you talk about what it means to Pivot and what inner resources are required to pay and what do you see your role as in helping a pivot so it said there's a couple different situations and we keep going cuz it's just sitting family festivals failing everything failing is horrible satellites not if we don't like that part of it
01:05:27traffic is not going to work help you figure out with the tools we have one else we can do a been honest and ethical and you know all the rest of things to expect more professional than generally will it will it will it will take but a second or third swing you know for as long as the money lasted and then there's kind of the hardest case which is and we've had these where it's like it's like your for your five your six the thing's not working and I don't want to quit they don't want to give up and they really should and the reason they really showed up because I asked a song about themselves and still pursuing this thing in the Disney's our team sports and so they're not going to let all the people so basically you've got to practice East are you up for 5 years flat part of it is Stuart have done it before so this is his second time doing it the first his first big successes call flicker flicker was another one of these where it was like there was a pivot
01:06:27we support them. He uses the bottle of Irish whiskey which is usually gets out the bottle whiskey of course everybody shots fully dependent on this technology called flash in the reality of Steve Jobs just decided to put it on flash iPhone like it's done and the reality is like the last three years whatever like it's for nothing it's like bad news here have another drink and it's like we going to basically we now have a choice you know we we are tribe right now it has a choice you know this person go to different things in different tribes or you know do we think we have an idea and the motivation to pursue something different and it turns out they had this in both of his parents they had the core of the new thing figured out they had developed
01:07:27Black Liberation system is a way to help them all work together Westminster bowling alley in short but I'm still willing to start up a rodeo I know you actually with puntastic so the story of a podcasting app called odeo that went to Market 10 years free Richard hats at like pre 545d networks like some pot you delete downloaded podcasts on your mp3 player it was just too early for the podcast 7 so Emma Williams injector or seeing these these these people created it flat lines they worked and worked and worked and then they had this little idea on the side of Twitter Twitter based on Jack's experience as a bicycle Messenger overhangs right
01:08:27computer science competitions private messaging computer science you have a choice I'll give you your money back cuz I'll give you the remaining money back or you can roll it into this mystical Twitter in and there's the legend is one of those are from said yes. What's wrong with it Adventure perfect money back today that's like a $5 difference mistakes it's just it is it it makes me that the only moral of the story there was like if you've got enough Williams if you got us through Butterfield and drink and discuss it to you are you and been in your team
01:09:19hey I listen to everything we all signed on to do isn't working I have this new idea how much of your time is spent crunching the idea vs. how much of it is so it's only part of it is just the idea is right in the center of how we that is right in the center of our idea Universe sure it's a it's a mess we kind of knew that General it was a plausible idea it wasn't cold fusion it was very well the fact that he was willing to make this train come through and say it's over with us or respectful of us and we knew that he do it
01:10:19Wellmark I'm so grateful that you spent this time thank you man great talk to you Mark is on Twitter but the most you're going to get is to see the things that he likes that's it. You don't even like that I am the I get nuclear submarine I Rose crack up when I would get one of them if you would like one of my tweets and then suddenly I would see this thing that what is this what is this but so you can't find Mark online sorry but you can read about them in books and maybe if you make another podcast. Someone is on a 16 seed. Calm and what's your podcast 16c podcast available on every Saint Augustine next Saturday on Saturday me on Mark's by the podcast he does with someone else so you can find me after I compliment you can write me the most BK to not send me a proposal to get to Mark Andrews and I will throw it out at don't send
01:11:19screenplay cuz I'll also throw that out but if your friends have any like screenwriters or VC's maybe you will be able to do something either buddy thanks see you next time bye

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