Full Transcript for How Oral Testosterone Will Revolutionize TRT w/ Shalin Shah

not simply testosterone, they're not sitting on the couch, injecting testosterone and getting massive, right? 02:22.747 --> 02:30.357 [SPEAKER_02]: So this perception of sexual health and muscle building is very, 02:30.539 --> 02:33.243 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's limited in terms of what the real role is. 02:33.824 --> 02:42.198 [SPEAKER_02]: And the real role is across the entire body, because there is an endogen receptor or testosterone receptor on nearly every organ in the body. 02:42.538 --> 02:51.332 [SPEAKER_02]: So from your brain to your heart, to your muscle, to your bone, to, yes, a defection or libido, all the way down to your cellular level. 02:51.312 --> 02:56.497 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, it controls information in the body, it helps with glucose metabolism, right? 02:56.597 --> 03:19.817 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why I say core foundational hormone and that's really what we're trying to educate here We actually had a big there was a big FDA expert panel last month in December that started to bring these things to light And I think that's very good for patients and even providers, right doctors were not taught about hormones in medical school and 03:20.337 --> 03:25.467 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it takes a generation really to change the practice of medical care. 03:26.088 --> 03:31.217 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, again, good thing is it's happening faster because of, you know, platforms like this. 03:31.758 --> 03:36.928 [SPEAKER_02]: But there's a lot of education to be done on how crucial this is in our body. 03:37.482 --> 03:39.244 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, a little deeper on that. 03:39.284 --> 03:44.391 [SPEAKER_00]: So you say there's an antigen receptor throughout the whole body. 03:44.411 --> 03:57.970 [SPEAKER_00]: And what that basically means is there's a structure in our body at the local level through the whole system that is waiting for testosterone to attach to so that it could potentially some action. 03:58.431 --> 03:58.831 [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. 03:58.971 --> 03:59.372 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 03:59.472 --> 03:59.873 [SPEAKER_02]: One state. 03:59.913 --> 04:01.395 [SPEAKER_02]: It's waiting for testosterone to hit it. 04:01.475 --> 04:05.380 [SPEAKER_02]: It binds and then, you know, gene activation occurs and then whatever process. 04:05.933 --> 04:09.479 [SPEAKER_02]: It's responsible for at that local level, as you're mentioning, starts to happen. 04:09.979 --> 04:32.194 [SPEAKER_00]: So can you touch on maybe some of those things that areas that, like you said, testosterone often, it's thought of as like libido or muscle building, but then you say there's receptors all over like what does, what's the role of a testosterone or an injury receptor at like the heart where somebody might not draw those connections between testosterone and how our heart operates? 04:32.292 --> 04:46.094 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, so there's good data that even that talks about or shows testosterone at endothelial function, right, this is the lining of your vessels and the smoothness of this vessel being impacted by testosterone levels, right? 04:46.735 --> 04:52.444 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, again, that's that's that's one example right there that is connected. 04:52.424 --> 04:55.810 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, this happens even in sort of the pancreas, right? 04:55.830 --> 04:57.533 [SPEAKER_02]: You think about beta cell function. 04:57.553 --> 05:03.022 [SPEAKER_02]: Beta cell function is very critical for pancreas health, and testosterone plays a role there. 05:04.484 --> 05:05.967 [SPEAKER_02]: It plays a role at a cellular level. 05:05.987 --> 05:09.252 [SPEAKER_02]: You're mitochondria, you're autophagy. 05:09.232 --> 05:21.006 [SPEAKER_02]: these things like biogenesis of new mitochondria or, again, cleaning of old ones or regulation of different vitamins happen at a cellular level, testosterone plays a role in. 05:21.207 --> 05:24.951 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's easy to, we can end again. 05:25.672 --> 05:27.294 [SPEAKER_02]: And with the education that needs to occur, right? 05:27.354 --> 05:38.648 [SPEAKER_02]: It's easy to talk about things like high-level, brain, heart, bone, muscle, et cetera, but you can certainly go level deeper and understand each of the processes that it affects and why it's important. 05:38.999 --> 05:47.929 [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard many people over the years discuss its importance in regard to like general mood and maybe like motivation. 05:48.189 --> 05:52.554 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know how, like, why it affects mood or how it does? 05:52.894 --> 05:55.657 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so again, you're at, you know, there you're at the brain level, right? 05:55.938 --> 06:04.247 [SPEAKER_02]: And an easy way to draw or, you know, demonstrate it in some sense is look at depression data and testosterone. 06:04.649 --> 06:11.517 [SPEAKER_02]: It was a study done, oh, I care, I'll let it a number of years ago, and it looked at depressive patients, patients on SSRIs. 06:12.177 --> 06:20.346 [SPEAKER_02]: And about, you know, pre, pre the study, nobody's on testosterone post, you know, they're obviously taking it. 06:20.747 --> 06:27.834 [SPEAKER_02]: And about an 80% reduction in depressive symptoms across that patient population, after starting testosterone. 06:28.395 --> 06:31.078 [SPEAKER_02]: And I believe about 20% 06:32.155 --> 06:34.639 [SPEAKER_02]: had major depressive syndrome. 06:34.719 --> 06:38.766 [SPEAKER_02]: And that was also markedly resolved via testosterone therapy. 06:39.227 --> 06:43.795 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this brings into this whole concept I'm talking about, if like, medical and where it is today. 06:44.236 --> 06:46.359 [SPEAKER_02]: Because let's face it. 06:46.480 --> 06:53.151 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people that are oppressed are quickly served up SSRIs, but how often are their hormone levels checked? 06:53.249 --> 06:54.831 [SPEAKER_02]: very, very rarely, right? 06:55.011 --> 07:11.614 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not saying there's no role for

anti-depressants, but often hormones could be a better, more physiologic place to start and still find if it if there aren't isn't resolution, then obviously there are other therapies, but hormones are foundational, right? 07:11.654 --> 07:18.083 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you can't build on top of that for a healthy body if you do not have your hormones imbalance. 07:18.364 --> 07:19.425 [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha. 07:19.405 --> 07:29.721 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I wonder if that mood is that like a byproduct of just a more robust metabolism within the brain or I wonder what the actual... 07:29.741 --> 07:31.785 [SPEAKER_02]: They're also... Yeah, they're connected there. 07:32.225 --> 07:37.173 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, again, like you're not starving brain receptors of testosterone, right? 07:37.293 --> 07:39.517 [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, there are those injured receptors there. 07:39.537 --> 07:41.620 [SPEAKER_02]: And if they're not... 07:41.640 --> 07:44.825 [SPEAKER_02]: Starting, right, there's not the downstream gene processes. 07:45.186 --> 07:45.987 [SPEAKER_02]: And there are... 07:47.080 --> 07:51.867 [SPEAKER_02]: effects with, say, serotonin levels and so forth, that these, that testosterone plays a role with. 07:51.907 --> 07:58.277 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, I mean, again, it's, it's quite complex in that sense, but, but the processes have to start in the brain. 07:58.818 --> 07:59.038 [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha. 07:59.639 --> 08:04.026 [SPEAKER_00]: So, on a, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but ideally, um, 08:04.006 --> 08:09.812 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, and this is going to be more likely when we're young and have a more robust system. 08:10.393 --> 08:22.807 [SPEAKER_00]: We eat food and we get cholesterol within our diet and then so long is there's enough like co-factors and all the moving parts are working right. 08:23.167 --> 08:33.118 [SPEAKER_00]: We convert that to pregnant alone, which is like I guess the mother hormone and then through that it goes down these different pathways 08:33.098 --> 08:40.328 [SPEAKER_00]: And along the way, ideally, if things are going well, we make testosterone from there. 08:41.029 --> 08:47.317 [SPEAKER_00]: And all these receptors are just naturally satisfied, I guess. 08:47.698 --> 08:48.118 [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. 08:48.138 --> 08:48.719 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 08:49.139 --> 08:49.560 [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, good. 08:50.001 --> 08:57.030 [SPEAKER_00]: But as we get older in general, all those parts of that process become 08:57.010 --> 08:58.912 [SPEAKER_00]: more challenging, if you will. 08:59.692 --> 09:10.762 [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess as we're just exists on the right side of the dirt, there's all kinds of stressors being imposed that negatively affect those process also. 09:10.862 --> 09:24.975 [SPEAKER_00]: So you could, you could kind of be doing things right, eating clean, getting sleep, whatever, but you could still be exposed to things whether it's environmentally or even in like, 09:24.955 --> 09:40.852 [SPEAKER_00]: that there's things in like the materials that all our stuff is made of that could be interfering with our ability to make testosterone or they could be encouraging the testosterone we make to be converted to estrogen more easily. 09:41.713 --> 09:54.287 [SPEAKER_00]: So on a population level the whole battle of like maintaining 09:54.622 --> 09:55.263 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's fair. 09:55.323 --> 09:55.664 [SPEAKER_02]: That's fair. 09:55.704 --> 10:04.619 [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, like you mentioned, there are, you know, something are under your control and you could be fairly good at maintaining those, right, diet, sleep, stress, exercise. 10:06.703 --> 10:10.890 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, there are environmental fractures and endocrine disorders that you cannot get away from, right? 10:10.950 --> 10:18.283 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, even the microplastic discussion, I mean, it's everywhere and no matter how much you try to avoid it, it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, 10:18.618 --> 10:19.800 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not coming out of us, right? 10:19.820 --> 10:26.368 [SPEAKER_02]: They've done studies in far-fung places of this world that you would think don't really have those exposures, but they do, too, right? 10:26.889 --> 10:39.486 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think we are, and that's why we've seen this generational decline in testosterone levels, not simply because of our lifestyle habits, but because of factors that are just outside of our control at this point. 10:39.786 --> 10:44.372 [SPEAKER_00]: Were you driven to this because you were trying to address something within yourself in this realm? 10:44.774 --> 10:47.138 [SPEAKER_02]: So it actually happened reverse, right? 10:47.398 --> 10:50.062 [SPEAKER_02]: I was definitely intrigued by it. 10:51.104 --> 10:55.551 [SPEAKER_02]: The space was facing, you know, to again testosterone as a molecule was very misunderstood. 10:56.092 --> 11:04.605 [SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of data that came out that was actually incorrect, but was taking sort of center stage. 11:06.577 --> 11:11.109 [SPEAKER_02]: It just, again, when you do the real research, it didn't drive, right? 11:11.289 --> 11:18.628 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's really what attracted me to look at this and pursue the development of Kaiser tracks. 11:19.520 --> 11:22.928 [SPEAKER_02]: But then as I got into it, right, it did become personal, right? 11:22.948 --> 11:24.571 [SPEAKER_02]: So I said, okay, now I know all of this. 11:24.992 --> 11:27.899 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me go figure out, I'm, I'm, and number one, right? 11:27.939 --> 11:28.901 [SPEAKER_02]: Let me go see what's going on. 11:28.961 --> 11:33.291 [SPEAKER_02]: I have to know, I can't do all of this without understanding what's happening in myself. 11:33.912 --> 11:38.322 [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, low and ball, I did have borderline, low testosterone. 11:40.107 --> 11:46.757 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and I understood what are those

ramifications, what are the, you know, what's the impact of this over the long term? 11:46.997 --> 11:50.903 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like that you had any symptoms associated with that at the time? 11:51.183 --> 11:54.548 [SPEAKER_02]: So interestingly enough, I don't think I was that symptomatic, right? 11:54.668 --> 11:57.011 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, and, and I'll say two fold, right? 11:57.192 --> 12:02.459 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's there's obviously a spectrum of of how people feel and so forth. 12:02.760 --> 12:09.810 [SPEAKER_02]: But then also, we, we kind of chalk things up to normal because these are gradual declines. 12:10.415 --> 12:30.651 [SPEAKER_02]: normal parts of aging and and again guys just have a tendency back out fine like in the comments so you just a reference yeah so nobody's talking about it and then you know you kind of ask these things with an extra cup of coffee in the afternoon right that was the biggest change for me was it was energy right and that's that's the interesting part of testosterone deficiency is 12:32.116 --> 12:38.507 [SPEAKER_02]: Because the receptors are all over the body, because the receptors may be working differently all over your body, right? 12:38.908 --> 12:43.636 [SPEAKER_02]: That your demand of a station of your symptoms can be quite variable, right? 12:43.696 --> 12:47.222 [SPEAKER_02]: There's this common thread across most people, but what? 12:47.793 --> 13:05.734 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel is not going to be exactly what you feel right it's not like a rash that just appears on the arm that's like highly recognizable you know like that's it right um so you know again fatigue is is a very common one and we did a study with well you know that over a thousand men and looked at 13:05.714 --> 13:13.722 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, how are they responding to questions around energy, or libido, or work performance, falling asleep after dinner? 13:14.383 --> 13:23.813 [SPEAKER_02]: And most of the responses were 60 to 70% in the range of, I don't feel like I can perform. 13:24.093 --> 13:29.299 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like my work is affected by this, or I fall asleep three to four nights after dinner. 13:29.619 --> 13:31.081 [SPEAKER_02]: And the results were honestly shocking. 13:31.141 --> 13:33.223 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think they were going to be that bad. 13:33.338 --> 13:43.065 [SPEAKER_00]: But what are some of the other common things, like if someone's out there wondering if something they experience is a sign of it being low, like what are the other common things? 13:43.386 --> 13:48.360 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so beyond fatigue obviously you're thinking about brain fog, you're thinking about 13:48.340 --> 14:07.024 [SPEAKER_02]: low libido, the inability to put on muscle mass, the increase in fat mass, you can take it a layer lower, I mean deeper and if you're looking at things like in your dexa, you're looking at lower bone mineral density, these are possible manifestations, information markers being

high. 14:07.004 --> 14:11.697 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, consumers and patients are doing a lot more comprehensive blood testing. 14:12.118 --> 14:19.900 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you look at a number of markers that are in there, they could be reflective of what's happening regarding your testosterone levels. 14:20.437 --> 14:20.958 [SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha. 14:20.978 --> 14:27.185 [SPEAKER_00]: Like all these things are just energetically expensive things, you know? 14:27.245 --> 14:42.643 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel like the symptoms when you talk like making bone or making muscle or you know brain fog like your brain working this this organ that is using more like energy per you know per unit of weight. 14:42.863 --> 14:50.292 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like it seems like it's central to making energy which 14:50.423 --> 15:08.162 [SPEAKER_02]: right and that goes back to the cellular level that goes back to the mitochondria if you're mitochondria are not working your cells are not working right and that manifests across the entire body so it's a perfect correlation right mm-hmm and you know you mentioned fat and something 15:08.142 --> 15:16.060 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been a little bit concerned about, I mean, I put on a little, I changed my, I'd gone through like so many different diet routines, you know, I'm gullible. 15:16.080 --> 15:18.586 [SPEAKER_00]: I go along with like all the diet of the day, whatever. 15:18.967 --> 15:24.480 [SPEAKER_00]: It seems over the last 15 years or so, um, and 15:24.460 --> 15:36.162 [SPEAKER_00]: lately, I've changed my diet a few years ago and it's helped in a lot of ways, but I have put on a little bit of weight and I have noticed my testosterone's going down a little bit and it's hard to tease out like what's what? 15:37.544 --> 15:47.683 [SPEAKER_00]: But I wonder because you need testosterone to like maintain low body fat, but also I from what I understand excess body fat. 15:47.663 --> 15:51.931 [SPEAKER_00]: makes it like that lowers testosterone itself or estrogen, right? 15:52.291 --> 15:57.180 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, lower lowers lowers testosterone and yeah, you have more aromatase to convert estrogen. 15:58.182 --> 16:09.182 [SPEAKER_00]: So why do you know anything about that like why the body if it prefers testosterone if it prefers an an optimal level because it's so important for all these other things 16:10.107 --> 16:28.437 [SPEAKER_00]: Why does it let it robatize like why don't we have a mechanism to maintain it seems like you're you're at the will of this unknown of like I hope my testosterone doesn't get converted to estrogen but if right if it wants testosterone and estrogen is problematic relative to testosterone 16:28.535 --> 16:29.856 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, how doesn't it self-regulate? 16:30.217 --> 16:30.817 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, two things. 16:30.897 --> 16:33.520 [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't say estrogen is problematic, right? 16:33.560 --> 16:34.621 [SPEAKER_02]: Men need estrogen too. 16:35.322 --> 16:36.443 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like both ways. 16:36.683 --> 16:44.251 [SPEAKER_02]: Females need testosterone and estrogen, and females actually have more testosterone in their body than estrogen, and men need estrogen too. 16:44.351 --> 16:52.960 [SPEAKER_02]: So there are other therapies that are designed to help boost testosterone by blocking estrogen, but those often don't pan out well for patients. 16:52.980 --> 16:54.441 [SPEAKER_02]: Wait, you just said, 16:54.421 --> 16:58.747 [SPEAKER_00]: females have more testosterone than estrogen in their body. 16:59.047 --> 16:59.348 [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. 16:59.849 --> 17:00.670 [SPEAKER_00]: That's interesting. 17:00.850 --> 17:05.016 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming that a lot of people, especially women, don't know that. 17:05.036 --> 17:05.577 [SPEAKER_02]: Yep, that is true. 17:05.677 --> 17:19.897 [SPEAKER_02]: The way the way that the metrics are done, so you can't compare them apples to apples because of the unit metrics they're used for those two hormones, but when you even them out, it's very clear. 17:20.037 --> 17:21.559 [SPEAKER_02]: It's almost four times to one. 17:21.961 --> 17:29.755 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a hit against the testosterone as a toxic masculinity compound. 17:30.256 --> 17:31.237 [SPEAKER_00]: That kind of shatter. 17:31.257 --> 17:32.139 [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. 17:32.159 --> 17:34.283 [SPEAKER_02]: It changed massively in the next couple years. 17:34.844 --> 17:37.228 [SPEAKER_02]: And it is, again, it is in full swing. 17:37.328 --> 17:44.020 [SPEAKER_02]: I think females that understand this that have actually incorporated testosterone into their HR to routines. 17:44.455 --> 17:46.297 [SPEAKER_02]: There's no taking it away from them. 17:46.397 --> 17:50.583 [SPEAKER_02]: They, it's absolutely not because they just, you know, they feel better and they know it. 17:51.164 --> 17:54.868 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, it plays its metabolic role in the body. 17:54.968 --> 18:03.599 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, and we have a nonprofit, it's called the testosterone project that's doing a lot of education out there and it's going to continue to do so. 18:04.000 --> 18:05.161 [SPEAKER_02]: But for both sides, right? 18:05.181 --> 18:09.567 [SPEAKER_02]: For men and females alike because, again, it's core metabolic hormone. 18:09.767 --> 18:10.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, actually, I'm curious. 18:10.308 --> 18:22.846 [SPEAKER_00]: And traditionally, when people use this, and for listeners, I mean, when we're talking about using this, we're trying to, I assume, that your company in general, we're trying to replace like the physiological level. 18:22.886 --> 18:28.954 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not talking about maximizing for very important absolute maximal muscle synthesis or whatever. 18:29.054 --> 18:31.017 [SPEAKER_00]: We're just trying to get back to like, 18:30.997 --> 18:44.989 [SPEAKER_02]: What probably was normal a hundred years ago before we made like a such a toxic environment and so correct correct

Yeah, physiological levels are really important right like you do not want a level that's too low and you don't want a level that's too high 18:45.087 --> 18:54.541 [SPEAKER_02]: What happens in sort of, let's call it traditional testosterone replacement therapy today, TRT, is that a lot of patients are getting super physiologic highs, right? 18:54.561 --> 18:55.803 [SPEAKER_02]: They go on these roller coasters. 18:55.823 --> 18:59.950 [SPEAKER_02]: They shoot up very high and then they crash back down later in the week or the next week. 19:00.571 --> 19:09.424 [SPEAKER_02]: And often what that does is that drives these, the side effect profile, whether that's called the high hematicate, which is, you know, your high red blood cell count. 19:09.404 --> 19:13.429 [SPEAKER_02]: or this excess estrogen conversion, right? 19:14.670 --> 19:17.513 [SPEAKER_02]: What your body does is your body makes testosterone every day. 19:19.035 --> 19:20.276 [SPEAKER_02]: Overnight, while you're sleeping, right? 19:20.316 --> 19:22.399 [SPEAKER_02]: That's when your body is reproducing its hormones. 19:22.419 --> 19:25.462 [SPEAKER_02]: So it peaks in the morning and then gradually declines throughout the day. 19:25.983 --> 19:38.837 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why we think the concept of oral is going to be so interesting, not just because, hey, look, now you have, you know, you have 25 million men out there that are hypogonatal, low testosterone. 19:38.817 --> 19:39.538 [SPEAKER_02]: need over team. 19:39.698 --> 19:42.483 [SPEAKER_02]: It's just not not feasible for long-term therapy. 19:42.904 --> 19:45.408 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's obviously a convenience factor, but it goes beyond that. 19:45.789 --> 19:52.380 [SPEAKER_02]: This is actually acting in a much more physiologic way for your body every day, right? 19:53.602 --> 19:57.248 [SPEAKER_00]: Just because of like these more slower and steady drip of it, or 19:57.380 --> 20:00.164 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, because you're taking what you need for that day, right? 20:00.244 --> 20:07.374 [SPEAKER_02]: So you're peeking in the day and then by the time you're going to bed, you're returning back to your baseline versus if you're on an injection protocol, right? 20:07.674 --> 20:10.538 [SPEAKER_02]: You are taking even at a minimum, you're taking it for a week, right? 20:10.558 --> 20:11.579 [SPEAKER_02]: That's the most common. 20:12.341 --> 20:15.625 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like waking up on Monday morning and taking 10 cups of coffee. 20:15.976 --> 20:18.779 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that, it's just not how our body works, it doesn't make sense. 20:19.179 --> 20:22.984 [SPEAKER_02]: So if you can, the most physiologic thing you can do is do it daily. 20:23.484 --> 20:25.807 [SPEAKER_02]: And keep it within a range that makes sense. 20:25.847 --> 20:27.548 [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, too low, not good. 20:27.608 --> 20:30.652 [SPEAKER_02]: We know there's implications there, too high, also not good. 20:30.872 --> 20:32.774 [SPEAKER_00]: So traditionally, you mentioned the needle a few times. 20:33.595 --> 20:41.123 [SPEAKER_00]: Traditionally, people are using injections, but there's also, from what I understand, creams, 20:41.103 --> 21:08.325 [SPEAKER_00]: which I guess have their I think everything probably has its pros and cons I guess it's just trade offs and then also like pellets that get corrected but what your company's doing is making an oral option like why is this new like what had to be done like why why didn't they already have it wasn't it oral before yeah absolutely so previous versions of testosterone you know via oral pathways were toxic to the liver and 21:09.014 --> 21:21.387 [SPEAKER_02]: So what we've done is create a version that is absorbed through your lymphatics or small intestines, and then bypasses the liver, so there's no liver toxicity, and that 21:21.805 --> 21:22.767 [SPEAKER_02]: is sort of the breakthrough. 21:23.008 --> 21:23.469 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting. 21:23.769 --> 21:24.711 [SPEAKER_00]: So, how did you do that? 21:24.732 --> 21:27.177 [SPEAKER_00]: Is it like packaged in fat that gets transported? 21:27.197 --> 21:28.139 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, exactly. 21:28.219 --> 21:40.607 [SPEAKER_02]: So, the active pharmaceutical ingredient, the testosterone undecanoi, is, you know, in a formulation that is, you know, you got to take it with fat to push through the lymphatics and then into your bloodstream. 21:40.587 --> 21:42.970 [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting and you have to take it with a certain kind of fat. 21:42.990 --> 21:48.898 [SPEAKER_02]: I assume like a longer chain fat, so it doesn't So you just again, you can take it with you know, it doesn't have to be an over a lot. 21:48.918 --> 21:56.488 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, downsides of previous versions where you have to take high fat meals right with with with Kai's structure really taking it with you know any fat, right? 21:56.528 --> 22:06.561 [SPEAKER_02]: So we've been trying to I mean personally, I'll take it with you know I do eat breakfast So I'll usually have a couple eggs in the morning, but if I'm not then I'll have it with a tablespoon of 22:06.541 --> 22:13.652 [SPEAKER_02]: olive oil or peanut butter and kind of get that lymphatics moving and you'll get your absorption. 22:13.853 --> 22:25.391 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the reason I ask from what I understand if a fat is short like the short or the medium chains or the shorter of the medium chains, they don't necessarily get packaged and travel through the lymph. 22:25.411 --> 22:27.976 [SPEAKER_00]: It can go right to the liver, correct? 22:27.996 --> 22:33.865 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, so yeah, but we have not seen differences 22:34.570 --> 22:38.015 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we've, we've, and we've done this across, you know, to you. 22:38.335 --> 22:47.308 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you familiar, I mean, you probably are, but I know there's companies out there now that are making, like, organ pills, and some of them have testicles in it.

22:48.469 --> 22:53.556 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think some of the idea is that there is some testosterone in those. 22:55.559 --> 23:01.287 [SPEAKER_00]: Do those work too, or like, is there a benefit is the issue that those are not, 23:01.705 --> 23:31.678 [SPEAKER_02]: standardize like you don't really know what you're getting right I think there's been a debate about what is called sort of bio-identical right that's been a marketing term that's been used in this space for for quite some time because they say well it looks exactly how your body you know makes it right which is sort of sounds like the premise a little bit with these organ pills but ultimately like even we use testosterone on deck and white right 23:31.658 --> 23:37.246 [SPEAKER_02]: you have just a testosterone molecule and when it's binding to the receptor you have just a testosterone molecule. 23:37.326 --> 23:39.109 [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing else that's binding to that. 23:39.129 --> 23:40.852 [SPEAKER_00]: In this bio-identical form. 23:41.393 --> 23:41.873 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. 23:42.174 --> 23:50.987 [SPEAKER_02]: And I go back to that physiologic bit because, again, a lot of folks in the pellet world will say, hey, look, these are bio-identical pellets, right? 23:51.127 --> 23:52.108 [SPEAKER_02]: And natural, right? 23:52.169 --> 23:52.489 [SPEAKER_02]: Natural. 23:52.649 --> 23:53.651 [SPEAKER_02]: But there's still made in a lab. 23:53.811 --> 23:57.056 [SPEAKER_00]: Getting a pellet, putting in injecting it is not natural. 23:57.076 --> 23:59.860 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're not picking off leaves and 23:59.840 --> 24:11.091 [SPEAKER_02]: mash them up and put them in the act right a pellet that doesn't make sense um So you know again, how do you replace that natural rhythm and then what is actually binding to the receptors what matters? 24:11.151 --> 24:18.158 [SPEAKER_00]: So the world comes in though not bio identical, but something gets cleaved off of it And then what's left is the bio identical? 24:18.258 --> 24:19.700 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's an extra ester, right? 24:19.720 --> 24:23.103 [SPEAKER_02]: And that helps the lymphatic absorption so that's getting it through the limbs, right? 24:23.123 --> 24:25.105 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not liver toxic, but 24:25.253 --> 24:36.590 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there any particular co-factor or something or nutrient that we need to have a good status of in our body to make sure that gets like cleaved off? 24:36.610 --> 24:42.719 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, again, everybody responds slightly different in that sense and could there be there is variation from patient to patient. 24:42.739 --> 24:48.207 [SPEAKER_02]: So you might be a little bit higher or lower of a sponder than me, right? 24:48.287 --> 24:53.455 [SPEAKER_02]: And that that can just do with our gut or like you're saying sort of, you know, downstream, 24:54.008 --> 24:57.051 [SPEAKER_02]: nutrients per se, but that's why you also have different doses. 24:57.352 -->

25:01.176 [SPEAKER_02]: So if, you know, if you need sort of 300 milligrams BID, then that's fine. 25:01.276 --> 25:02.898 [SPEAKER_02]: I might need 400 milligrams BID. 25:03.278 --> 25:08.624 [SPEAKER_02]: But by and large, you know, in our trial, 96% of patients, it was effective for. 25:09.124 --> 25:18.835 [SPEAKER_02]: So all variations will exist, but I don't think at scale when you think again, 25 million men just in the US with this problem, hundreds globally, 25:18.815 --> 25:20.480 [SPEAKER_02]: We have a scalable solution, right? 25:20.520 --> 25:21.021 [SPEAKER_00]: That's great. 25:21.783 --> 25:22.104 [SPEAKER_00]: Shall we? 25:22.144 --> 25:30.006 [SPEAKER_00]: What the, like, if somebody goes on this, what is the general timeline before they feel like something turned on? 25:30.458 --> 25:33.925 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, again, it's acting in your body pretty much immediately, right? 25:34.045 --> 25:41.519 [SPEAKER_02]: Just, you know, oral testosterone is short acting, so, and it's, and it is testosterone that you're ingesting, right, an exogenous source. 25:41.860 --> 25:44.706 [SPEAKER_02]: So, in some sense, it starts working in your body immediately. 25:45.928 --> 25:49.615 [SPEAKER_02]: We recommend testing levels at least seven days post. 25:49.595 --> 25:52.279 [SPEAKER_02]: So that gives your body that time to adjust. 25:52.980 --> 25:58.948 [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to check your levels that quickly, and then we still guide, you know, 30, 60 days for symptom improvement, right? 25:59.289 --> 26:01.292 [SPEAKER_02]: I think you got to give enough time. 26:01.812 --> 26:04.356 [SPEAKER_02]: But I've had anecdotes like all over, right? 26:04.396 --> 26:07.300 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, I've had people tell me immediately that they've felt 26:07.280 --> 26:16.395 [SPEAKER_02]: XYZ right and for other people that might be coming from another therapy they have a bit of an adjustment period right like mentally They're kind of their bodies figuring out now. 26:16.435 --> 26:22.065 [SPEAKER_02]: They have a bit of a normal level maybe previously They had this super high level, right? 26:22.105 --> 26:27.814 [SPEAKER_02]: So the bodies adjusting a little bit to I guess let's say understand the difference Gotcha. 26:27.834 --> 26:30.098 [SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense 26:31.816 --> 26:52.103 [SPEAKER_00]: you mentioned testing like where's the range that you feel because I feel like what's considered normal is kind of irrelevant like I mean I've been totally I've been told my testosterone's normal and I'm like I look at a chart and I'm like that looks pretty fucking average to me like I don't want. 26:52.083 --> 26:55.753 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm spending like an obscene money on clean food. 26:55.834 --> 27:05.822 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing all these things to curate my house and my lifestyle to try to be healthy Like I don't want the average like I want to I want to feel like nine fifty feels like or whatever 27:05.870 --> 27:07.072 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, no, I agree. 27:07.092 --> 27:08.954 [SPEAKER_02]: The range is pretty wide. 27:08.994 --> 27:13.340 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think really what the problem is sort of at that bottom. 27:13.660 --> 27:14.241 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, two things, right? 27:14.261 --> 27:15.783 [SPEAKER_02]: The range is continued to decline. 27:16.364 --> 27:23.173 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, get your over your decade over decade, because the range is really reflective of the labs that we use and the population that goes to those labs. 27:23.213 --> 27:24.835 [SPEAKER_02]: So we have an unhealthy population. 27:25.175 --> 27:29.061 [SPEAKER_02]: The average testosterone levels on the low end are going to keep going lower and lower. 27:29.381 --> 27:30.482 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why we've seen things. 27:30.863 --> 27:32.485 [SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of gone from, you know, 27:32.465 --> 27:51.840 [SPEAKER_02]: four hundred three fifty three hundred down we're seeing two sixties being normal right that's one thing and then again like you're saying it's it's even as bad as where let's just use three hundred for the number as the cut off right guys will come in at at at three oh one and and doctors will say yeah you're fine yeah that's crazy 27:51.820 --> 27:53.002 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not right. 27:53.083 --> 28:06.750 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not how Managed and should be treated and I think the same applies to other I mean most diseases right if one 20 For LDL was considered high so at one 19 all good no worries Yeah, let the party keep going. 28:06.790 --> 28:09.576 [SPEAKER_02]: No, that doesn't make sense you got to think about this as a spectrum 28:10.990 --> 28:16.299 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't mind on this spectrum, because the hard attack at 60 doesn't start at 59, it's started when you were 40. 28:18.283 --> 28:19.265 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly, right? 28:19.325 --> 28:21.569 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this testosterone is no different. 28:22.530 --> 28:29.202 [SPEAKER_00]: So where is the level that you feel like people should be aware that that's not ideal? 28:29.924 --> 28:36.293 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think once you're starting to, what two things here, once you're starting to creep below, I don't know, let's call it 500. 28:36.833 --> 28:44.403 [SPEAKER_02]: You probably pay a little bit more attention than you did otherwise, not to say, you know, 505 is great or whatnot, right? 28:44.443 --> 28:49.350 [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, it does help to be in sort of, 28:50.073 --> 28:55.469 [SPEAKER_02]: upper quartiles and there is data that shows upper quartiles really where you want to be at large. 28:55.970 --> 29:02.108 [SPEAKER_02]: But two other important things that you need to pay attention to are your free testosterone. 29:02.206 --> 29:03.307 [SPEAKER_02]: and your SHBG. 29:04.249 --> 29:09.936 [SPEAKER_02]: So free testosterone is really the key because that is what is available to be bound to the receptor. 29:10.337 --> 29:14.903 [SPEAKER_02]:

Total testosterone is bound to SHBG primarily and unusable. 29:15.644 --> 29:17.146 [SPEAKER_02]: So what is your free level? 29:17.587 --> 29:19.549 [SPEAKER_02]: And normally this is about 2% right? 29:19.589 --> 29:25.277 [SPEAKER_02]: So your total T say is a thousand and then your free testosterone would be like 20. 29:26.185 --> 29:30.050 [SPEAKER_02]: but SHBG has been, you know, sort of, it does increase with age. 29:30.511 --> 29:34.136 [SPEAKER_02]: And we've seen elevated levels also kind of a bit on a population basis. 29:34.656 --> 29:36.178 [SPEAKER_02]: So what drives that? 29:36.218 --> 29:37.560 [SPEAKER_00]: So those are inversely related. 29:37.660 --> 29:44.069 [SPEAKER_00]: The free T and the SHBG, which is sex hormone binding, globular, globular. 29:44.529 --> 29:45.310 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 29:45.330 --> 29:46.512 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the purpose of that? 29:46.552 --> 29:48.474 [SPEAKER_00]: Like why do we have an SHBG? 29:48.595 --> 29:51.779 [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's, it's also a check on the body, too, right? 29:51.879 --> 29:54.943 [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, like example is, 29:54.923 --> 30:21.437 [SPEAKER_02]: even a very relevant example right when you're taking injectable therapy often SHBG rises with it because your body's compensating it's saying well now you got all this testosterone like hey can't have this wide foot around jackup SHBG so we can control what is actually hitting the receptors right so it's it's a check on the body right body has it's is smart and has these these checks and balances so um but again lifestyle 30:21.417 --> 30:39.107 [SPEAKER_02]: Alcohol use on the female side SHBGs are elevated because of birth control And chronically, right like it doesn't just go down once you stop birth control So that's a big third exposure to mold and like Environmental toxins like that could drive SHBG. 30:39.148 --> 30:40.590 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's 30:40.672 --> 30:45.160 [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean it would make sense to see again higher levels, but it does rise with age, right? 30:45.180 --> 31:00.127 [SPEAKER_02]: So no matter what, it pretty much does go up with age because you'll hear from a lot of people that, you know testosterone for males is different than sort of menopause for females like, we don't have to decline if we are healthy as we age, we can keep normal testosterone loves. 31:00.387 --> 31:03.473 [SPEAKER_02]: That is true, but our SHBG is going to go up. 31:03.453 --> 31:13.243 [SPEAKER_02]: So our free tea levels are going to come down, and that's why we really stress the need to test for those as well, so you can get a complete picture of what's going on. 31:13.510 --> 31:14.771 [SPEAKER_00]: So they'll naturally go up. 31:15.412 --> 31:26.084 [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder if that's like a check on the population evolutionarily, like you know, they don't want 80 year olds having kids because they're not fit to take out a care of them. 31:26.104 --> 31:27.366 [SPEAKER_00]: Or they'll

wear testosterone. 31:27.386 --> 31:27.986 [SPEAKER_02]: He's possible. 31:28.026 --> 31:36.596 [SPEAKER_00]: So what do you notice like, somebody comes in and they have, I don't know, 350, 450, whatever, and they wanna try this. 31:36.656 --> 31:41.982 [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess they access your stuff through their doctor, not directly to you guys, and then. 31:41.962 --> 31:43.043 [SPEAKER_00]: They give it a try. 31:43.283 --> 31:56.037 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you see a strong correlation of, like, a month later, they feel better and then they do the test and the test shows it goes up and if so, like how much does it usually go up when somebody is treating with this oral? 31:56.778 --> 31:58.520 [SPEAKER_02]: Right, so a couple things there, right? 31:58.540 --> 32:10.112 [SPEAKER_02]: And in terms of, like, numbers, you know, what we call it as sort of C max, what's your, you know, high point in the day and this is from our trials because we would measure testosterone. 32:10.160 --> 32:11.602 [SPEAKER_02]: every hour for 24 hours. 32:12.083 --> 32:15.307 [SPEAKER_02]: So C-Max is around 1,000 nanograms per deciliter, right? 32:15.687 --> 32:18.952 [SPEAKER_02]: And that is a very strong number. 32:19.292 --> 32:22.917 [SPEAKER_02]: You mean for anybody, that's for anybody, on average, yeah, for on average, right? 32:22.977 --> 32:27.443 [SPEAKER_02]: Some people could be higher, some people could be slightly lower, but on average, that's what we're seeing across doses too. 32:27.503 --> 32:31.328 [SPEAKER_02]: So it gives you a really, so this is with the dose. 32:31.348 --> 32:35.273 [SPEAKER_02]: This is with, this is with, yeah, yeah, yeah, again, I'm saying on, on therapy, right? 32:37.316 --> 32:39.559 [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, when you say how much does it go up, 32:40.248 --> 32:44.573 [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're sort of reframing things because of this short acting nature. 32:45.694 --> 32:48.157 [SPEAKER_02]: You really want, and again, you want to activate the genes. 32:48.317 --> 32:55.145 [SPEAKER_02]: Once those hydrogen receptors are hit and bound, the amount floating your blood stream is not as relevant. 32:55.226 --> 32:59.591 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think we're reframing how people think about that number a little bit. 33:00.131 --> 33:05.718 [SPEAKER_02]: But by and large, and again, in our data, we'll show patient report outcomes we're statistically significant across the board. 33:05.778 --> 33:10.103 [SPEAKER_02]: People feeling better energy, better mood, 33:10.741 --> 33:22.715 [SPEAKER_02]: What the interesting part and frankly challenge about moral testosterone is that the lab timing becomes more critical, right? 33:22.776 --> 33:29.864 [SPEAKER_02]: The time of day, exactly because if you took your dose, let's say 8 AM, you're peaking in three to five hours. 33:30.545 --> 33:32.327 [SPEAKER_02]: So you as the patient, 33:33.522 --> 33:36.165 [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe this is a male mindset, right? 33:36.425 --> 33:38.828 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you want that number to be as good as possible. 33:38.848 --> 33:41.831 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you almost care about that number more than you care about how you feel. 33:42.131 --> 33:44.334 [SPEAKER_02]: Because that influences how you feel. 33:44.794 --> 33:51.742 [SPEAKER_02]: So you really need to take that lab at say four hours post dose. 33:51.762 --> 33:57.488 [SPEAKER_02]: And you needed to also take your dose correctly because people often think labs and they think fasting. 33:58.177 --> 34:02.283 [SPEAKER_02]: so they don't take a meal and then they may or may not take their dose, right? 34:03.225 --> 34:08.873 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't realize that they need to be on the drug to reflect the numbers, right? 34:09.614 --> 34:12.058 [SPEAKER_02]: So this happened and the reason I share this is it happens all the time. 34:12.118 --> 34:14.682 [SPEAKER_02]: My patients come in and we hear this from our doctors. 34:15.143 --> 34:17.366 [SPEAKER_02]: They come in and feel great doc, everything's great. 34:17.586 --> 34:18.608 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what's my number? 34:18.888 --> 34:21.452 [SPEAKER_02]: And then the doc's like, well, it's like 200 something. 34:21.472 --> 34:21.973 [SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, what? 34:21.953 --> 34:23.896 [SPEAKER_02]: That's not, that doesn't make sense, right? 34:24.577 --> 34:33.790 [SPEAKER_02]: And then they have to go on and explain and do the detective work and say, okay, when did you, when did you get your labs done, did you take your dose, did you take it with food, et cetera, right? 34:34.311 --> 34:39.398 [SPEAKER_02]: But again, they came in and they're feeling great, it's just that number, they didn't figure out the lab timing. 34:39.418 --> 34:51.555 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're being more educating a lot on that, too, because again, you have a solution that's going to affect that many people, I think, you know, sort of the way to do it needs to 34:51.957 --> 34:55.003 [SPEAKER_00]: What's the natural swing challenge? 34:55.044 --> 35:04.544 [SPEAKER_00]: Through the day, like you say you take the pills and there's a C-max, a few hours later, that hits a thousand, and then how far does it drop? 35:04.604 --> 35:05.025 [SPEAKER_00]: Like what's it? 35:05.426 --> 35:10.877 [SPEAKER_00]: And is that equivalent to the natural swing from a percentage level that people are used to? 35:11.414 --> 35:21.591 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the swing could be, and again, it's very, yeah, I would say you get up to that max and then, but again, remember there's a second dose too, right? 35:21.692 --> 35:23.555 [SPEAKER_02]: So you take, it's actually taking twice a day. 35:24.537 --> 35:31.228 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you take a twice a day, and then so you have your second peak max, and then you'll gradually decline through the day. 35:31.900 --> 35:42.089 [SPEAKER_02]: And even on therapy, I want to be back at baseline at the end of the day, because then my brain is basically saying, well, there's no exact

exogenous testosterone here, right? 35:42.349 --> 35:43.590 [SPEAKER_02]: So body, get back to work. 35:44.171 --> 35:47.554 [SPEAKER_02]: Even though it may not be doing its best work, at least it's still working. 35:48.174 --> 35:54.100 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why even in our phase three trials, we didn't see anything, we didn't see any testicular actually. 35:54.120 --> 35:58.664 [SPEAKER_02]: Because the brain signals are still saying, LH and FSH are at the lower end of normal. 35:58.704 --> 36:01.266 [SPEAKER_02]: They're not to zero like other therapies. 36:01.955 --> 36:04.580 [SPEAKER_02]: So getting going back to baseline is a good thing. 36:04.780 --> 36:05.100 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 36:05.281 --> 36:06.703 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to touch on what you just mentioned. 36:06.723 --> 36:24.013 [SPEAKER_00]: So you said, um, because I guess one of the things that I've heard people be concerned about around testosterone replacement in general is I guess like the down and dodgenous down regulation and you mentioned like a symptom there like essentially balls getting smaller. 36:24.719 --> 36:37.767 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's generally one of the risks involved with any time you're replacing Testosterone regardless of the type of tool, whether it's pill injection or whatever. 36:38.641 --> 36:49.358 [SPEAKER_02]: It could be, but again, it's like, because I would frame it like again, if you're taking external testosterone, your body is thinking at certain levels, it doesn't need to do any work. 36:49.638 --> 36:49.818 [SPEAKER_02]: Right? 36:50.359 --> 36:57.831 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the difference when you're taking something like a pallet or an injection, you basically have high testosterone for 24 hours a day. 36:59.465 --> 37:00.447 [SPEAKER_00]: because that normal. 37:00.867 --> 37:01.849 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's not normal. 37:01.929 --> 37:05.275 [SPEAKER_02]: And until you get to that, you know, to towards your next dose, right? 37:05.295 --> 37:07.198 [SPEAKER_02]: That's when it will start to come back down to baseline. 37:07.218 --> 37:15.511 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when people usually kind of report that crash feeling, um, you know, so your body, again, it's exposed to this 24 hours a day. 37:15.532 --> 37:20.680 [SPEAKER_02]: Your brain is that's why it's shutting off LH and FSH because it's like, I don't need to do any work. 37:21.183 --> 37:31.536 [SPEAKER_00]: versus oral, and LH and FH, I'm sorry, I'm a little ignorant on those, those are the, are those four moons, are those like serious hormones, the two are going down to your testies. 37:31.556 --> 37:31.876 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 37:32.156 --> 37:44.912 [SPEAKER_00]: So normally, that's the messaging that's telling our body to make this stuff, but they will feel if your levels are too high, too consistently downright, that they're not necessary. 37:44.892 --> 37:59.243 [SPEAKER_00]: and then as a the person experiencing that experiences that in a loss of like volume or mass of the testicles often is in what other like what are the other risks other than that. 37:59.604 --> 38:01.047 [SPEAKER_02]: So that really drives fertility. 38:02.109 --> 38:02.530 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 38:03.083 --> 38:06.194 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why, and we still recommend the same. 38:06.214 --> 38:11.412 [SPEAKER_02]: It's in our label, and we're not going to recommend taking this is going to preserve your fertility. 38:11.693 --> 38:13.520 [SPEAKER_02]: But it is a future study that we're looking at, right? 38:13.540 --> 38:15.085 [SPEAKER_02]: So again, common. 38:16.280 --> 38:25.113 [SPEAKER_02]: Practices, okay, external testosterone is going to reduce your fertility, and that's obviously I quote unquote the risk, so you need to be conscious of that if you are, you know, trying. 38:26.135 --> 38:28.739 [SPEAKER_00]: But that might be a benefit for a guy that doesn't want any more kids. 38:29.720 --> 38:42.540 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a treat for an abut, not a formal birth control, but also, again, it's funny because they will warn you that it can make you sort of quote unquote infertile, but it has not gone as far to say, hey, look, here's a surefire way for male birth control. 38:42.520 --> 38:47.831 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but that's funny because I mean, I assume it increases libido. 38:47.851 --> 38:54.505 [SPEAKER_00]: So like it's strange that it would maybe make you more horny, but less fertile 38:55.160 --> 39:23.766 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly, and this is more complex than I think the broad problem is because if you look at a lot of young males that are in fertility huge issue in the young population today, a lot of them have a low testosterone and this is where you think about equilibrium is there is there actually a better sweet spot that they need to be at to drive better sperm counts and better fertility. 39:23.746 --> 39:25.730 [SPEAKER_02]: We are running a study right now. 39:25.830 --> 39:34.265 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a pilot study looking at, you know, 15 patients or so, taking Kaiser Drex at normal doses and looking at what that does to sperm counts. 39:35.147 --> 39:46.868 [SPEAKER_02]: And there was some preliminary data shared and it was promising, directionally, that sperm counts for 78% of the folks stayed in normal range. 39:48.130 --> 40:07.607 [SPEAKER_00]: there's another pill and I don't want to like promote a competitor here but just honest conversation I heard that there's another pill that guys can take that works on those pituitary pathways where it tries to drive testosterone by telling your body it wants to make more sperm. 40:07.587 --> 40:11.073 [SPEAKER_02]: So, that's what I referred to actually early on when I talked about the estrogen blocker. 40:11.654 --> 40:15.861 [SPEAKER_02]: So, they do that, right, and then they also block estrogen. 40:16.622 --> 40:24.195 [SPEAKER_02]: And, and I'll just, it's in chromophene is what is what's being purported as this natural way. 40:25.323 --> 40:26.305 [SPEAKER_00]:

What's your opinion? 40:26.366 --> 40:31.318 [SPEAKER_02]: What's interesting is, a couple of days, on paper, the numbers will be higher, absolutely. 40:31.678 --> 40:35.127 [SPEAKER_02]: But most patients don't report symptom improvement. 40:35.147 --> 40:43.467 [SPEAKER_02]: So they still feel pretty shitty, honestly, even though their numbers look good. 40:44.037 --> 40:52.469 [SPEAKER_02]: free testosterone, I guess technically should should go up, yeah, a degree as well, but why they don't feel good. 40:52.489 --> 40:53.390 [SPEAKER_02]: They don't feel good. 40:53.530 --> 40:57.356 [SPEAKER_02]: And actually, I mean, look, we have our article board is the top you're all just in the country. 40:57.376 --> 40:59.599 [SPEAKER_02]: There's actually not a perfect explanation for this. 40:59.619 --> 41:00.340 [SPEAKER_02]: Still to this day. 41:01.321 --> 41:05.387 [SPEAKER_02]: But what the other component is is not just not feeling good, is walking estrogen. 41:06.028 --> 41:07.350 [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of these guys feel worse. 41:08.511 --> 41:11.175 [SPEAKER_02]: I have, you know, 41:12.404 --> 41:20.665 [SPEAKER_02]: many, many folks that are, you know, emotionally unstable and also lose libido, because there's an estrogen role here. 41:21.287 --> 41:24.355 [SPEAKER_02]: So in Coleman-fein, honestly, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's 41:25.668 --> 41:48.486 [SPEAKER_02]: a great headline to say hey look do this naturally boost your own production and not be on TRT but but the adherence rates are so low and so yeah it's it's it's again it's blowing up in a lot of ways because of that positioning statement that you can make but long term I don't think it's going to be it's just not going to be a good solution for for most people 41:48.989 --> 42:08.539 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think what's good is that we're getting options and that it's, and that, like, as you say, you want to, like, I guess, demystify the problems around, you know, the negative press, I guess, around testosterone and we're all going to be able to get, I guess, more informed and have more options are generally better. 42:08.959 --> 42:09.360 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's. 42:09.340 --> 42:12.124 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a little bit about the FDA panel from last month. 42:12.144 --> 42:18.913 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, right, this is the first time the FDA's come out and kind of highlighted how important hormone therapy is. 42:19.234 --> 42:29.108 [SPEAKER_02]: They did it for females in the summer in July, I believe, and they actually made some very important label changes to their products, taking off black boxes, and then they did a panel in December. 42:29.148 --> 42:36.478 [SPEAKER_02]: So actually, I was the only industry person to participate in that panel alongside 12, 13 other, 42:37.015 --> 42:40.761 [SPEAKER_02]: clinicians that have done testosterone research for the last three decades. 42:41.482 --> 42:48.052 [SPEAKER_02]: And the three key takeaways,

which I think are going to have a tremendous, tremendous impact on men's health, are increased testing. 42:48.593 --> 42:53.961 [SPEAKER_02]: The testosterone is the single best biomarker of a man's overall health, so it should be included in every blood panel. 42:54.922 --> 42:55.844 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a 10-dollar test. 42:55.884 --> 42:57.647 [SPEAKER_02]: Why are we not checking? 42:57.667 --> 42:57.927 [SPEAKER_00]: All right. 42:58.109 --> 43:00.293 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason not to watch that video. 43:00.453 --> 43:01.675 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought you did great by the way. 43:01.996 --> 43:02.317 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 43:02.397 --> 43:02.878 [SPEAKER_02]: Appreciate it. 43:02.958 --> 43:03.679 [SPEAKER_00]: Way to represent. 43:04.661 --> 43:10.992 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I mean, look, it's it's it's it's it's good that the message is getting out for sure. 43:11.213 --> 43:16.422 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it's got I mean, just look, it's so hard to be healthy now. 43:16.975 --> 43:32.597 [SPEAKER_00]: Like we need to, you know, it's, it's, it's like unlikely, it's not realistic to just expect your body's able to make all the things that you want it to make effectively, indefinitely, like, agreed. 43:32.817 --> 43:34.760 [SPEAKER_02]: We need to have access to tools. 43:35.141 --> 43:42.191 [SPEAKER_02]: I use the, you know, even like I use an example with folks and maybe people think I'm being fescious, but I'm like, look at your eye health, right? 43:42.231 --> 43:44.094 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you get older, your eyes age, you are glasses. 43:44.154 --> 43:46.577 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, do we, do we tell you to just, 43:46.557 --> 43:47.418 [SPEAKER_00]: Suffering on. 43:47.899 --> 43:48.700 [SPEAKER_02]: Suffering right. 43:49.160 --> 43:52.585 [SPEAKER_02]: No, you just you take care of the issue, right? 43:52.645 --> 43:57.891 [SPEAKER_02]: Why is this so different when it actually affects again when it actually affects so many things in your body? 43:57.911 --> 44:01.596 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's there's there's the data is very clear and these are large-scale studies. 44:01.636 --> 44:08.445 [SPEAKER_02]: This was I think 83,000 folks at the VA low testosterone increased all cause mortality. 44:08.805 --> 44:11.248 [SPEAKER_02]: You will die sooner full stop 44:13.490 --> 44:14.572 [SPEAKER_02]: And again, men's health, right? 44:14.592 --> 44:17.316 [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about men die on average seven years earlier than females. 44:18.858 --> 44:19.920 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we get a raw deal there. 44:20.100 --> 44:22.924 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's fix some of these foundational things. 44:22.944 --> 44:24.226 [SPEAKER_02]: These are not expensive things, right? 44:24.446 --> 44:30.035 [SPEAKER_02]: These are not rare disease treatments from big form of a cost $10,000 a month that are going to bankrupt our system. 44:30.435 --> 44:32.358 [SPEAKER_02]: These will actually save money in the long run. 44:32.618 --> 44:41.792 [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I talked about to it, the FDA, like this is a preventive care cost-saving opportunity if we just test it and treat those that needed it. 44:42.633 --> 44:46.336 [SPEAKER_00]: for sure, though you are a pious, you do have some skin in the game. 44:46.417 --> 44:47.377 [SPEAKER_02]: I do have some in the game. 44:47.558 --> 44:48.458 [SPEAKER_02]: I do have skin in the game. 44:48.538 --> 44:50.480 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm intrigued, and I'm interested. 44:50.680 --> 45:01.150 [SPEAKER_00]: I've felt, for the last few years, very curious about tinkering and taking the step to ask my doctor about testosterone and give it a try. 45:01.631 --> 45:10.699 [SPEAKER_00]: There's part of me that's worried that I'm comfortable and have conceded to the idea that eventually I'm going to go on it. 45:11.219 --> 45:14.083 [SPEAKER_00]: but I get the feeling that once you go on it, you're kind of committing. 45:14.703 --> 45:16.786 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not something like you go, you go. 45:16.826 --> 45:22.893 [SPEAKER_00]: It fixes some machinery and then you don't need to take it and you're good. 45:23.234 --> 45:29.181 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, I feel like I wanna, there's a part of it that wants to put it off because I know that once I start, I'm doing it forever. 45:29.702 --> 45:33.626 [SPEAKER_02]: But two things there that I would sort of counter, right? 45:33.767 --> 45:34.948 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, one is, 45:36.110 --> 45:37.592 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a bit of virtuous cycle, right? 45:37.612 --> 45:42.337 [SPEAKER_02]: We go back to the energy being maybe at the core that you see from a symptom perspective and so forth, right? 45:42.698 --> 45:48.925 [SPEAKER_02]: So if that change in your sort of energy and being allows you to be even healthier, right? 45:48.985 --> 45:53.211 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you need to drop a couple pounds, maybe it's 10% of your body weight or something, right? 45:53.831 --> 45:55.934 [SPEAKER_02]: And you make a couple other changes. 45:56.254 --> 46:00.820 [SPEAKER_02]: And then say your testosterone does actually restore to a certain degree, right? 46:01.040 --> 46:06.066 [SPEAKER_02]: Even though the environmental stuff is still going on, 46:06.046 --> 46:06.788 [SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome. 46:07.589 --> 46:08.451 [SPEAKER_02]: Try it, right? 46:08.491 --> 46:10.134 [SPEAKER_02]: See what happens. 46:10.155 --> 46:14.724 [SPEAKER_02]: And so if it works in that way, great, if it doesn't, then you're, you are going to stay on, right? 46:14.764 --> 46:19.714 [SPEAKER_02]: You're committed, but like, like your point two or your, your thought about, let me just start later. 46:21.518 --> 46:23.182 [SPEAKER_02]: But what are you gaining right now? 46:23.783 --> 46:24.865 [SPEAKER_02]: And are you not, 46:25.739 --> 46:34.113 [SPEAKER_02]: performing your best and sacrificing that and how you feel and how you show up every day because the thought of you saying I'd rather just do this for less time later.

46:34.173 --> 46:36.897 [SPEAKER_02]: That, I mean, again, that's a personal decision. 46:37.718 --> 46:39.181 [SPEAKER_00]: How old are you, shall I? 46:39.201 --> 46:39.802 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm 39. 46:40.282 --> 46:40.823 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 46:40.843 --> 46:42.125 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you take this? 46:42.145 --> 46:45.571 [SPEAKER_02]: I take, yeah, I take guys' tracks and I've been on since we released it. 46:45.791 --> 46:46.893 [SPEAKER_02]: How long has that been? 46:46.913 --> 46:47.534 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a three years. 46:47.915 --> 46:50.339 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and would you start at 36? 46:51.581 --> 46:52.422 [SPEAKER_00]: Would you notice? 46:52.857 --> 46:55.405 [SPEAKER_02]: So my energy was flat different, right? 46:55.445 --> 46:59.056 [SPEAKER_02]: Like my afternoons were the most noticeable. 46:59.458 --> 47:01.163 [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds so simple and basic, but 47:02.324 --> 47:16.927 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a big thing though, because it speaks to a more systemic thing that's, that's what you notice, but there must be something else going on, like the way your body is partitioning resources to do things that it wants, like make immune cells or whatever. 47:17.528 --> 47:17.969 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 47:17.989 --> 47:23.337 [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't look ideal with, you know, so even though Kai's tracks is such a broad based 47:23.317 --> 47:24.899 [SPEAKER_02]: therapy in that sense. 47:24.959 --> 47:29.987 [SPEAKER_02]: We've actually really, so whether it's, you know, primary care and the chronology, neurologist, right? 47:30.428 --> 47:32.030 [SPEAKER_02]: It spans even cardiology. 47:32.130 --> 47:37.138 [SPEAKER_02]: We have a number of cardiologists that are, you know, well aware of what testosterone role is, so they use it. 47:37.659 --> 47:39.942 [SPEAKER_02]: But we spend a lot of time with a longevity community. 47:39.922 --> 48:03.685 [SPEAKER_02]: right and that's a real sort of passion of mine interest of mine so we've we've we've we've gravitated there a lot so again to your point there's a lot happening under the surface that we can't ignore and we want to make sure it's addressed so and even like you know peptides are blowing up right now everybody wants to be on a peptide and there's a peptide for everything which is great i'm a fan of a lot of them but you know from a foundation 48:03.665 --> 48:06.811 [SPEAKER_02]: And we always advocate for this at the end of the day, right? 48:06.871 --> 48:10.478 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, diet, sleep, stress, exercise, non-negotiables. 48:10.498 --> 48:13.885 [SPEAKER_02]: Above that sits your hormonal health. 48:14.226 --> 48:16.510 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, that has to be in balance. 48:17.165 --> 48:20.469 [SPEAKER_02]: for all of the rest of the processes in your body to be functioning properly. 48:21.070 --> 48:25.055 [SPEAKER_02]: And then, as a longevity sort of seeker, right? 48:25.155 --> 48:33.186 [SPEAKER_02]: Then I can think about other peptides, other longevity compounds, then maybe above that, you're thinking stem cells and wrap up my sins of the world and so forth. 48:33.206 --> 48:35.869 [SPEAKER_02]: But like again, building blocks have to be there. 48:36.810 --> 48:38.933 [SPEAKER_00]: A couple questions, and I'll let you go. 48:40.075 --> 48:43.459 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, on the building block idea, like I mentioned, pregnant and earlier, 48:44.587 --> 49:08.232 [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard people make the case that it's a tough needle to thread, taking testosterone, something that's kind of in the middle of this pathway, whereas is there a benefit in giving yourself pregnant alone by a identical pregnant alone and trusting the inner wisdom to make the testosterone that it wants to make? 49:08.853 --> 49:09.153 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 49:09.254 --> 49:09.474 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 49:09.514 --> 49:11.757 [SPEAKER_02]: So I have, yeah, fair question and fair thoughts. 49:11.777 --> 49:17.345 [SPEAKER_02]: So two things I'll say on that is one is I'm not seeing, I guess, that reliably been done, right? 49:17.385 --> 49:24.194 [SPEAKER_02]: Where you're taking exogenous, pregnant alone and then your body is, like, in a harmonious place again, right? 49:24.394 --> 49:24.554 [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. 49:24.574 --> 49:28.119 [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of other things that could happen. 49:28.179 --> 49:32.785 [SPEAKER_02]: So testosterone or estrogen, progesterone in the female, right? 49:32.805 --> 49:38.353 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think it sits, let's call it sits at that middle layer, 49:39.667 --> 49:45.192 [SPEAKER_02]: 90% of what you needed to do to ensure you're getting those downstream benefits, right? 49:45.492 --> 49:48.135 [SPEAKER_02]: So are you at the absolute top of the of that chain? 49:48.375 --> 49:52.759 [SPEAKER_02]: No, but you're close enough where the benefits are being achieved. 49:54.100 --> 49:58.925 [SPEAKER_02]: The only interesting thing I'll mention on prognonal as a as a as a brain hormone too. 49:59.205 --> 50:02.148 [SPEAKER_02]: I think this is going to be largely problematic for a lot of guys out there. 50:02.748 --> 50:06.552 [SPEAKER_02]: Is like the hair loss drugs that have been pervasive. 50:07.190 --> 50:08.432 [SPEAKER_02]: over the last couple years, right? 50:08.472 --> 50:17.986 [SPEAKER_02]: It's so easy, everybody's on a lot of, not everybody, a lot of people are on finasteride, finasteride, yeah, systemically, and that affects pregnant alone. 50:18.547 --> 50:20.109 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, so I don't know much about that. 50:20.129 --> 50:24.956 [SPEAKER_00]: You're saying they're taking a pill to grow hair, and it's doing what? 50:25.016 --> 50:26.278 [SPEAKER_00]: It's lowering pregnant alone? 50:26.819 --> 50:26.979 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 50:27.440 --> 50:28.742 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay. 50:28.840 --> 50:31.062 [SPEAKER_00]: and nobody's talking about it. 50:31.082 --> 50:46.378 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I have taken pregnant alone, and I don't think it's done

anything that I've noticed for testosterone, at least at the low doses I take, but I monitor your pregnant alone levels and say like, hey, I've seen them higher a couple times a year. 50:46.958 --> 50:47.319 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 50:47.379 --> 50:58.510 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily have seen any stark move, but I've taken it for like stress. 50:59.992 --> 51:09.462 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, like the best I can explain is like stabilizing effect like recalibration like getting out of a chronically stress state. 51:10.387 --> 51:26.810 [SPEAKER_00]: It felt very good, a side thing on it that is kind of strange to me, and I eventually have found a dot to connect, but through the years I've used cannabis often on different levels, different times, like phases, and it was very weird. 51:27.451 --> 51:39.448 [SPEAKER_00]: The first time I took pregnant alone, my desire for cannabis just disappeared. 51:40.002 --> 52:04.390 [SPEAKER_00]: okay like gone and then i've done some digging since then and i found that pregnant alone interacts with the cannabinoid system so like maybe i was chasing something with weed that i needed and then pregnant alone just like fixed it right very strange but i don't think i've had any um any change positive or negative with testosterone or any kind of testosterone related 52:04.943 --> 52:33.448 [SPEAKER_02]: Symptoms are what will be interesting to see frankly is like because you mentioned the stress piece again That cognition not saying is brain fog and whatnot, but like again, maybe your receptors are more, you know Let's just call it devoid You know from from a neuro perspective also still for for testosterone because a lot of people do report those cognitive effects So maybe you would see more than The average person, right like again, and I think 52:33.968 --> 52:54.272 [SPEAKER_02]: obviously I'm interested so let me ask you what like is this expensive hat like people who have to go through the doctor they go through insurance yes so we we did things differently when we launch Kaiser Trek because we knew counter intuitively to what it should be is that if we went through typical insurance channels this thing is just gonna get blocked and nobody's gonna access it. 52:54.252 --> 52:56.135 [SPEAKER_02]: And that's not why we did this, right? 52:56.215 --> 52:59.401 [SPEAKER_02]: We made this because it's a solution to a big problem. 53:00.623 --> 53:02.426 [SPEAKER_02]: So we actually made constructs a cash product. 53:02.907 --> 53:07.074 [SPEAKER_02]: And we tried to keep it as sort of reasonable and affordable as possible. 53:07.796 --> 53:12.324 [SPEAKER_02]: And kind of go directly to that patient and say, hey, look, we know you're doing this. 53:12.524 --> 53:13.385 [SPEAKER_02]: And we've seen this a lot, right? 53:13.405 --> 53:14.668 [SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of wellness clinics. 53:14.688 --> 53:15.910 [SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of TRT clinics. 53:15.930 --> 53:17.172 [SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of hormone places. 53:17.152 --> 53:21.240 [SPEAKER_02]: because patients have had to seek out channels beyond the traditional system. 53:21.801 --> 53:25.468 [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, we just created a cash product in that sense. 53:26.109 --> 53:30.157 [SPEAKER_02]: You can, again, can you get your doctor to write a script traditionally quote-unquote? 53:30.538 --> 53:35.647 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but if you're already seeing somebody for hormones or peptides or whatnot, then they can also take care of this. 53:36.389 --> 53:39.615 [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, on average, guys' tricks is about 200 bucks a month. 53:40.658 --> 53:46.916 [SPEAKER_02]: could be 200, could be 250 depending on your provider and the care that they're providing and sort of their whole package and whatnot, right? 53:47.076 --> 53:52.592 [SPEAKER_00]: And do most of those providers that deal with hormones, do you think they're already aware of this product that exists? 53:52.910 --> 54:03.007 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, fair number, I think there's always more, and we're continuing to grow, you know, sort of every day and bring on and expand the team to change that and grow awareness. 54:03.067 --> 54:08.236 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's why as a, you know, a typical pharmaceutical company, you know, I'm out there. 54:08.276 --> 54:10.900 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm on podcast because we gotta talk about this thing. 54:11.321 --> 54:12.403 [SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, you know, 54:12.383 --> 54:29.446 [SPEAKER_00]: At $200 a month, you know, I'm a little ignorant on the cost of hormones stuff, like how does that compare to someone that's going the more traditional root with that might be a less effective approach, like with these injectables or pellets, do you know is that comparable? 54:29.466 --> 54:35.995 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's pretty much in line with pellet costs, it's about the same, and actually honestly injectables. 54:37.730 --> 54:41.114 [SPEAKER_02]: depending on where you're going for your care, could be the same cost. 54:41.414 --> 54:49.503 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you really wanted cheap injectables, you can go to your PCP and if you'll write it for you, you can probably get it for 30, 40, 50 box from CVS. 54:50.484 --> 54:51.805 [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, that's possible, right? 54:51.925 --> 54:53.487 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not gonna say it's not. 54:53.507 --> 54:55.269 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, this is a premium product, right? 54:55.289 --> 55:04.559 [SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the day, the amount of R&D in the time and, frankly, the money that we have to put into this, like, that's still very, it's very reasonable. 55:04.599 --> 55:06.201 [SPEAKER_02]: We've tried again. 55:06.181 --> 55:11.936 [SPEAKER_02]: a pharmaceutical, typical product where you're making, you know, like GOP1's cost cost $5 to make, max. 55:12.518 --> 55:20.038 [SPEAKER_02]: And then obviously hundreds at the minimum to consumers and before they were selling for $1,200 a month when they first started with insurance

place. 55:20.660 --> 55:22.342 [SPEAKER_02]: we don't do that. 55:22.363 --> 55:25.167 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not the same equation for us. 55:25.247 --> 55:27.310 [SPEAKER_02]: We really want this in patients hands. 55:27.590 --> 55:27.971 [SPEAKER_02]: Gotcha. 55:29.213 --> 55:33.198 [SPEAKER_00]: One other question that's kind of ties back to what we're talking about maybe 20 minutes ago. 55:33.499 --> 55:42.432 [SPEAKER_00]: But for women, do they actually have that same daily cycle of peaks and troughs that men do with their testosterone? 55:42.530 --> 55:43.291 [SPEAKER_02]: It's similar. 55:43.331 --> 55:44.273 [SPEAKER_02]: It's not exact. 55:44.313 --> 55:45.976 [SPEAKER_02]: We're looking to study this more. 55:46.517 --> 55:47.839 [SPEAKER_02]: We actually did launch. 55:48.260 --> 55:50.143 [SPEAKER_02]: We announced our female advisory board. 55:51.726 --> 55:53.048 [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe at the beginning of November. 55:53.649 --> 55:59.258 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're pursuing an FDA approved version of Oral testosterone for female. 55:59.318 --> 56:02.023 [SPEAKER_00]: So right now none of this is for women. 56:02.155 --> 56:03.177 [SPEAKER_02]: No. 56:04.038 --> 56:06.242 [SPEAKER_02]: Kids' trucks, yeah, it's only indicated from men. 56:06.463 --> 56:07.625 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 56:07.645 --> 56:13.535 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, I mean, just to wrap up, you said you're 36, you're in 39, I'm sorry, you're in the world of this. 56:15.358 --> 56:19.405 [SPEAKER_00]: What else do you do, or what else do you recommend? 56:19.385 --> 56:34.643 [SPEAKER_00]: for guys like I feel like if you're not doing some of those baseline things lifestyle stuff that it's probably you probably wouldn't want to jump to this I would think like you'd want to clean up some of those things first maybe 56:34.623 --> 56:43.152 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I honestly hear that a lot and I think, you know, what I recommend to, you know, even again, my closest friends in that sense, I'm like, go get tested first, right? 56:43.172 --> 56:50.319 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, see where you are and then let's talk about what you would do because I don't think they're mutually exclusive. 56:50.339 --> 56:56.825 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, like, the lifestyle changes and that's why being on testosterone, like, they are synergistic effects, ultimately, right? 56:57.186 --> 57:00.529 [SPEAKER_00]: And if there's a certain level, like, if you're at 350, 57:00.509 --> 57:06.790 [SPEAKER_00]: and you've been there for a decade, you're probably not bringing that up to 900 naturally. 57:08.238 --> 57:20.369 [SPEAKER_00]: Fair even if you get it because your your body is probably the whole like cascade that your brain sees It's that would be like such a foreign thing for it to just choose to right. 57:20.969 --> 57:38.245 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly and it's not going to I mean even we've you know, there's data that we've seen that looks at like okay a 10% drop in body Way and say your testosterone jumps by

80 points and then maybe use some more way and it jumps by 150 points 57:38.225 --> 57:40.770 [SPEAKER_02]: You still might be a better, but I don't know. 57:40.830 --> 57:41.952 [SPEAKER_02]: You might not, right? 57:42.012 --> 57:44.396 [SPEAKER_02]: You might not really still be really optimal. 57:44.416 --> 57:46.159 [SPEAKER_02]: So I think again, that's for for a patient. 57:46.199 --> 57:48.704 [SPEAKER_02]: It's provider to figure out. 57:50.427 --> 57:53.753 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I think it starts with testing at the end of the day. 57:54.830 --> 57:58.938 [SPEAKER_02]: All guys over 40 absolutely should have a testosterone test, whether they're symptomatic or not. 57:59.298 --> 58:06.372 [SPEAKER_02]: I would argue that guys younger should too and even figure out where their baseline is, even if they feel good, know what that is, right? 58:06.392 --> 58:12.463 [SPEAKER_02]: Like as I said, like these are all spectrums and progressions over decades, like figure out why not, right? 58:12.504 --> 58:15.910 [SPEAKER_02]: We're taking all these other proactive, preventive health care steps. 58:15.890 --> 58:17.794 [SPEAKER_00]: Then you could see trend lines down the road. 58:18.396 --> 58:18.857 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 58:19.258 --> 58:19.658 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 58:19.759 --> 58:24.229 [SPEAKER_00]: What was I doing this time when it was hired and maybe Yeah, peace together. 58:24.469 --> 58:26.594 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure. 58:26.955 --> 58:35.113 [SPEAKER_00]: But so naturally though, we're making it when we're asleep, which kind of speaks of all the health related things or lifestyle related things. 58:35.093 --> 58:58.620 [SPEAKER_02]: sleeping you know it's always big but as far as hormones and managing testosterone it seems like it's kind of top of the list there it's very important right and you know again I'm no no I'm not perfect at my sleep routine just trying to you know living in the modern world it's like you know bodies old but we're living in the modern world right 58:59.528 --> 59:11.277 [SPEAKER_00]: And this has been great, it's been very informative and I'm really glad there's folks out there getting creative and innovating new ways to help folks so I applaud your efforts. 59:12.792 --> 59:15.816 [SPEAKER_00]: If people want to learn more, like, what do they do? 59:15.896 --> 59:25.509 [SPEAKER_02]: They just go to the company's website or... Yeah, so I'd, you know, I would go to more and more go to KaiserTrek's website, KYZATREX.com. 59:25.529 --> 59:31.096 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of information there, some of our telehealth partners are there, so they can, they can, you know, kind of pursue that pathway. 59:31.156 --> 59:33.198 [SPEAKER_02]: Or they can find a local physician, right? 59:33.239 --> 59:42.090 [SPEAKER_00]: If they want to have that conversation, and if they talk to their doctor, and they want, and the doctor doesn't know about it, do you, what do you recommend then to tell the doctor? 59:42.070 --> 59:45.794 [SPEAKER_02]: So, providers like again, like a lot of providers reach out to us too and want to learn more. 59:46.915 --> 59:48.557 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's a lot of resources. 59:48.637 --> 59:49.938 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, online to learn about it. 59:50.078 --> 59:53.922 [SPEAKER_02]: We have webinars, we do patient webinars, see these podcasts. 59:53.962 --> 59:54.984 [SPEAKER_02]: I think are great places. 59:55.044 --> 59:59.929 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't tell you how many times doctors come up to me and say, yeah, I saw your podcast on that twice. 01:00:00.309 --> 01:00:00.549 [SPEAKER_02]: Right? 01:00:00.589 --> 01:00:02.311 [SPEAKER_02]: So, like, there's a lot out there. 01:00:03.112 --> 01:00:05.975 [SPEAKER_02]: But we're, we're, we're reachable in, in some sense. 01:00:05.995 --> 01:00:10.660 [SPEAKER_02]: And we're happy to help educate and, you know, share what we know, sort of thus far. 01:00:10.792 --> 01:00:12.434 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thanks for sharing what you know today. 01:00:12.494 --> 01:00:14.938 [SPEAKER_00]: Shallon, it's been an absolute pleasure meeting you and talking to you. 01:00:14.958 --> 01:00:17.401 [SPEAKER_00]: And for the listeners, it's always grateful for your listening. 01:00:18.643 --> 01:00:19.884 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's good advice. 01:00:20.065 --> 01:00:21.607 [SPEAKER_00]: Get tested, find out where you're at. 01:00:21.947 --> 01:00:26.734 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you feel like there's room for improvement and you want to explore, see if this is the right fit for you. 01:00:26.774 --> 01:00:29.998 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you have tried, 01:00:30.265 --> 01:00:34.493 [SPEAKER_00]: to testosterone replacement, whether it's Kaiser Trek or anything, and you have something to share. 01:00:34.553 --> 01:00:38.039 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to see in the comments just to learn more about what people's experiences are. 01:00:38.059 --> 01:00:48.198 [SPEAKER_00]: So please leave a comment and I'm interested because I do feel like I'm getting pretty close to dip in my toe in it, and I just want to hear what's working for people. 01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:51.624 [SPEAKER_00]: So thanks again, everybody, I hope you enjoy the conversation. 01:00:51.764 --> 01:00:52.566 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you have a great day. 01:00:53.628 --> 01:00:53.988 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 01:00:54.028 --> 01:00:54.349 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.