Full Transcript for S9 "Evil By Design" E9: Nothing Sticks

confinement 72 00:04:20.990 --> 00:04:21.610 in Toronto. 73 00:04:22.310 --> 00:04:25.470 He is literally, in my mind, a one-man wrecking ball 74 00:04:25.509 --> 00:04:27.290 of all that society holds dear. 75 00:04:28.629 --> 00:04:31.769 But what about his hometown, where he lived and worked 76 00:04:31.850 --> 00:04:35.600 for decades while he grew his sprawling multinational business? 77 00:04:36.860 --> 00:04:41.620 What bothers me the most right now is that society thinks, oh, 78 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:47.910 Peter Nygaard perfected everything in the Bahamas. No, he perfected 79 00:04:48.129 --> 00:04:51.310 how to get away with all of this in Winnipeg. 80 00:04:55.709 --> 00:05:00.050 I'm Timothy Sawa, and this is Evil by Design. A 81 00:05:00.069 --> 00:05:02.750 lot's happened since we ended the series, so we're going 82 00:05:02.769 --> 00:05:05.389 to give you an update and a deeper look at 83 00:05:05.509 --> 00:05:09.680 new allegations against Peter Nygaard at home in this bonus episode, 84 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:11.920 Nothing Sticks. 85 00:05:19.990 --> 00:05:25.149 You know, as an Indigenous woman, well, Indigenous girl, I 86 00:05:25.209 --> 00:05:27.269 think it would be impossible to say that any of 87 00:05:27.389 --> 00:05:31.360 us were not born into trauma in the 70s. But 88 00:05:31.569 --> 00:05:35.079 I took life as it came. People always describe me 89 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:38.079 as the human version of Tigger. I just bounced through life, 90 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:40.399 and I've always got this silly little grin and a 91 00:05:40.459 --> 00:05:41.160 joke ready. 92 00:05:41.180 --> 00:05:42.720 That's just who I am. 93 00:05:45.939 --> 00:05:48.459 Serena Hicks may be known as Tigger, but when I 94 00:05:48.500 --> 00:05:51.730 met her recently in Winnipeg, She wasn't joking or grinning. 95 00:05:52.649 --> 00:05:55.019 She wasn't happy with me, and she let me know it. 96 00:05:56.589 --> 00:05:59.149 She felt our coverage so far had focused too much 97 00:05:59.470 --> 00:06:03.029 on Nygaard's behavior around the world, and not enough on 98 00:06:03.050 --> 00:06:07.819 where he got his start in Winnipeg. She had a point. 99 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.300 It's one of the reasons we kept investigating his time there. 100 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:17.860 Having to know that there's these faceless people out there 101 00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:21.910 that contributed to Him getting away with all this in Winnipeg? 102 00:06:22.509 --> 00:06:23.410 Yeah, it pisses me off. 103 00:06:25.310 --> 00:06:27.670 Serena started working in one of Nygaard's stores as a 104 00:06:27.709 --> 00:06:31.709 young woman in Winnipeg in the early 90s. At the time, 105 00:06:31.769 --> 00:06:35.199 she had a month's old baby. Right from the start, 106 00:06:35.259 --> 00:06:38.420 she says the store's manager was full of compliments about 107 00:06:38.459 --> 00:06:40.500 how good she looked in Nygaard clothes. 108 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:45.920 At 20, to feel professional was so amazing. 109 00:06:47.019 --> 00:06:49.519 After a few months, Serena says the manager told her 110 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:54.050 Peter Nygaard wanted to meet her personally. And one day, 111 00:06:54.250 --> 00:06:55.329 he turned up on site. 112 00:06:56.410 --> 00:06:57.850 And she said, hey, you know, can you just go 113 00:06:57.910 --> 00:07:04.829 clean out the change rooms? And I did. I saw that, 114 00:07:04.850 --> 00:07:08.790 you know, I opened each change room and was like, oh, gosh, 115 00:07:08.870 --> 00:07:11.740 you know, can't people just put things on the hangers? 116 00:07:11.750 --> 00:07:16.279 And then I was in there, and then Peter Nygaard 117 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:16.879 was behind me. 118 00:07:18.779 --> 00:07:25.860 And, uh, Nygaard forced Serena into one of the change rooms. 119 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.370 While he raped her, she says the manager was just 120 00:07:29.449 --> 00:07:30.069 meters away. 121 00:07:32.790 --> 00:07:36.329 There's no way that she wouldn't have heard how violent 122 00:07:36.389 --> 00:07:42.800 it was. And you could hear change being counted. And 123 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.699 her hand off the counter. And all this violent stuff 124 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.459 was happening to me. And there's no way you couldn't 125 00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:58.430 hear it. And, you know, I thought about this little 126 00:07:58.470 --> 00:08:01.439 baby who I was providing. 127 00:08:03.459 --> 00:08:05.459 And I thought, God, mom's not coming home. 128 00:08:08.699 --> 00:08:13.660 And I thought, I can't believe I am alive. How 129 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.750 am I alive? And then when I got out, I 130 00:08:16.790 --> 00:08:19.949 realized that I was full of bruises and marks. 131 00:08:21.350 --> 00:08:27.759 And marks where I fed my babies. Never breastfed him again. 132 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.159 And I just, I couldn't. 133 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.120 Because not only was it so violent, but I had 134 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:43.080 these marks of the violence. And I had the memory 135 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:48.960 of those coins being counted. The sound of her closing 136 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:49.379 the till. 137 00:08:54.450 --> 00:08:58.139 Based on experience, Serena believed reporting the rape to the 138 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:00.139 Winnipeg police would get her nowhere. 139 00:09:01.820 --> 00:09:04.629 I was Indigenous already, so I knew as a young 140 00:09:04.669 --> 00:09:08.710 woman going to the police wasn't safe. We were never believed. 141 00:09:08.789 --> 00:09:15.009 We were always tossed aside. Did he know that Indigenous 142 00:09:15.070 --> 00:09:16.110 girls were vulnerable? 143 00:09:16.330 --> 00:09:17.230 Hell yeah, he did. 144 00:09:18.009 --> 00:09:18.750 You're in Winnipeg. 145 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:24.159 Winnipeg's history will speak of that. There's no way he 146 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:24.720 didn't know that.

147 00:09:34.029 --> 00:09:36.840 In 1980, Peter Nygaard made news for something other than 148 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:40.120 a celebration of his growing business. He had been arrested 149 00:09:40.259 --> 00:09:43.659 and charged with rape. The charges were stayed, though, when 150 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:47.019 the woman decided not to testify in court. For the 151 00:09:47.059 --> 00:09:49.539 next 40 years, this would be known as the first 152 00:09:49.610 --> 00:09:54.509 time the Winnipeg police had Nygaard in their sights. Until now. 153 00:09:54.529 --> 00:09:57.049 I joined the force in 1955, and this is the 154 00:09:57.070 --> 00:09:58.370 graduation ceremony. 155 00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:02.039 What was that day like for you? 156 00:10:02.779 --> 00:10:07.000 Well, it was a great day. I was finally on 157 00:10:07.019 --> 00:10:07.490 the force. 158 00:10:08.809 --> 00:10:12.190 This is Des DePork. He retired as the superintendent of 159 00:10:12.230 --> 00:10:14.370 the Winnipeg Police Service Crime Division in 1986. He's 89 160 00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:20.340 years old now. were sitting together in his living room 161 00:10:20.419 --> 00:10:23.080 on the outskirts of Winnipeg. And he's telling me a 162 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:26.399 story that before today, he's never made public. 163 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:33.009 This was an incident in the late 60s. I received 164 00:10:33.070 --> 00:10:36.970 a report from a young lady of a sexual nature. 165 00:10:38.509 --> 00:10:41.570 My recollection is she was a young lady, I'm guessing 166 00:10:41.629 --> 00:10:46.179 around 18, maybe a little older. And I believe she 167 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.500 worked for Mr. Nygaard in his factory. 168 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.259 In 1968, Peter Nygaard was a new face on Winnipeg's 169 00:10:54.340 --> 00:10:55.879 bustling garment-making scene. 170 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.639 At that point, I knew very little about him. I 171 00:10:59.700 --> 00:11:02.350 only knew what I'd read in the papers, and he 172 00:11:02.379 --> 00:11:06.429 was getting a lot of publicity about his rise to fame. 173 00:11:07.190 --> 00:11:10.029 But other than that, that was my first contact with him. 174 00:11:11.450 --> 00:11:15.490 His company, Nygaard International, had only been incorporated in Winnipeg 175 00:11:15.529 --> 00:11:16.309 the previous year. 176 00:11:17.779 --> 00:11:22.480 As a result of the investigation, Mr. Nygaard was charged 177 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.220 with a sexual offense. The matter was proceeding through the 178 00:11:26.259 --> 00:11:29.720 court process, and at that time, I believe Mr. Nygaard 179 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:33.909 had yet to enter a plea. But in the interim, 180 00:11:34.269 --> 00:11:39.429 the young lady, the complainant, she approached the Crown prosecutor 181 00:11:40.169 --> 00:11:44.129 and withdrew her complaint. As a result of that, our 182 00:11:44.169 --> 00:11:49.169 investigation was finished. There was no more

to go. And Mr. 183 00:11:49.210 --> 00:11:51.029 Nygaard was deemed to be innocent. 184 00:11:53.250 --> 00:11:56.009 To this day, Depork doesn't know why the young woman 185 00:11:56.149 --> 00:11:57.149 withdrew her complaint. 186 00:11:58.860 --> 00:12:02.210 Well, it's not usual, but it does happen. You know, 187 00:12:02.250 --> 00:12:05.429 people say, why? Well, I can think of a number 188 00:12:05.470 --> 00:12:09.169 of reasons. First of all, the complainant has been through 189 00:12:09.190 --> 00:12:13.750 a very stressful situation. She's now called upon to appear 190 00:12:13.789 --> 00:12:16.860 in open court and retell the whole story, which is 191 00:12:16.940 --> 00:12:20.179 another layer of stress. The other thing is sometimes they 192 00:12:20.220 --> 00:12:23.340 get peer pressure from their family. They get peer pressure 193 00:12:23.379 --> 00:12:27.200 from their friends. And in some cases, it's out and 194 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:31.120 out threats. And of course, there's also the other thing 195 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:38.450 is sometimes there is financial compensation. I never interviewed the 196 00:12:38.549 --> 00:12:41.350 complainant after, so it's a big question mark. 197 00:12:43.289 --> 00:12:46.269 Because of Des Depork, we now know that police in 198 00:12:46.309 --> 00:12:50.049 Winnipeg were aware of Nygaard more than a decade earlier 199 00:12:50.289 --> 00:12:55.149 than that 1980 rape charge. In both cases, the young 200 00:12:55.210 --> 00:12:58.389 women accusing him of rape decided not to pursue the 201 00:12:58.429 --> 00:13:01.159 charges in court. Why? 202 00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:07.340 Nygaard built this power. He was like a king. He 203 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:12.419 had the money. He had the buddies that could support him. 204 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:15.279 And this girl that I worked with and their family, 205 00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:17.139 they feared Peter Nygaard. 206 00:13:18.899 --> 00:13:22.149 Joy Smith is a former Winnipeg Member of Parliament. She 207 00:13:22.210 --> 00:13:24.570 spent much of her life helping local women and girls 208 00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:28.789 who were being trafficked. In 2000, she was approached for help. 209 00:13:30.090 --> 00:13:34.250 Well, I had a particular incident where one of the 210 00:13:34.330 --> 00:13:37.860 staff members who worked for Nygaard at the time told 211 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:43.480 me about a young girl who had been raped. And 212 00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:46.679 so I met with the girl and the family. 213 00:13:47.659 --> 00:13:51.720 The family was furious and eventually confronted him themselves. 214 00:13:52.850 --> 00:13:58.120 And as it turned out, Peter Nygaard persuaded them not 215 00:13:58.129 --> 00:14:00.340 to go to the police and not to report. And 216 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:04.460 he gave them $ 250, 000 to keep quiet. And, you know, 217 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:07.659 I could never understand initially why they would agree to that.

218 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:12.480 But as they explained to me, Peter Nygaard made them 219 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.840 feel that they couldn't win anything anyway. He had the 220 00:14:15.899 --> 00:14:19.519 money and he'd fight them and their lives would be ruined. 221 00:14:20.299 --> 00:14:23.769 He was in full power. power mode. He was the king. 222 00:14:23.789 --> 00:14:28.649 He could do anything he wanted. So the family, sadly 223 00:14:28.830 --> 00:14:31.909 and reluctantly, did accept the money and kept quiet. 224 00:14:33.669 --> 00:14:36.049 To this day, the girl in this story, who is 225 00:14:36.090 --> 00:14:39.669 now a woman, is keeping quiet. She won't speak to 226 00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:42.889 me or the police. But would it have made a 227 00:14:42.929 --> 00:14:50.740 difference if she had? After listening to Evil by Design 228 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:52.980 last year, another woman came forward. 229 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.799 How you doing? Here we are. 230 00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:59.480 This woman has kept her story a secret for nearly 231 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:04.000 40 years. She's still afraid. So we've agreed not to 232 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:08.240 identify her. What you're hearing are her words, voiced by 233 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:08.759 an actor. 234 00:15:10.779 --> 00:15:12.639 When I first came to work for him, I knew 235 00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:18.620 nothing about his reputation or anything. It was a shock because... 236 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:22.519 All of these executives that walked proudly, with authority, that 237 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:26.440 commanded respect. All of a sudden, Nygaard is coming. 238 00:15:26.659 --> 00:15:27.679 Nygaard is coming. 239 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:33.379 The entire building goes into a state of absolute panic. 240 00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:38.080 Adult men are running around like frightened ladies and waiting. 241 00:15:38.730 --> 00:15:42.690 They're panicking. Everything needs to be perfect. And when that 242 00:15:42.750 --> 00:15:46.450 individual arrived, it was as though, you know, he made 243 00:15:46.529 --> 00:15:50.299 his entrance up the spiral staircase with his lifts on 244 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.039 and his chest puffed out. The spectacle was truly the 245 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:55.159 people surrounding him. 246 00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:03.009 In 1983, she was 18 years old and working her 247 00:16:03.070 --> 00:16:06.029 first professional job at Nygaard's Winnipeg office. 248 00:16:07.409 --> 00:16:11.149 My desk was visible. And, you know, he would just 249 00:16:11.230 --> 00:16:15.750 travel past my desk constantly, constantly throughout the day. And 250 00:16:15.850 --> 00:16:18.629 one day, finally, he just came and sat on my 251 00:16:18.669 --> 00:16:22.230 desk And I was having a cigarette. And he leaned 252 00:16:22.299 --> 00:16:24.730 over and he said, you know, I really want you 253 00:16:24.769 --> 00:16:27.990 to be my girlfriend so badly. But you can't be 254 00:16:28.009 --> 00:16:31.169 my girlfriend if you smoke. And I recall just taking 255 00:16:31.230 --> 00:16:35.690 a long haul off that cigarette and just right in 256 00:16:35.730 --> 00:16:38.129 his general direction. And I thought that would get rid 257 00:16:38.169 --> 00:16:41.210 of him. But it was like something in his eye went, ha, 258 00:16:41.990 --> 00:16:45.440 she's a fiery one. And so I inadvertently drew attention 259 00:16:45.500 --> 00:16:50.980 to myself. Over the months, I was constantly expected to 260 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.879 stay overtime for no reason at all. So I was 261 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:58.559 kept working very, very late. And I was very well 262 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:01.000 aware of the fact that there were no more buses 263 00:17:02.059 --> 00:17:04.380 and that an employer had a duty to pay for 264 00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:07.869 your cab fare home. And time came, you know, okay, 265 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.009 I need approval for my cab. No, I'm going to 266 00:17:12.049 --> 00:17:15.769 drive you home. And that's when it started. And I 267 00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:18.940 was still living with my parents. That's how young I was. 268 00:17:19.819 --> 00:17:22.089 And it was, you know, quit smoking. You can be 269 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.069 my girlfriend. You're sexy. And I just got the heck 270 00:17:25.109 --> 00:17:27.470 out of that car really quickly and ran into the house. 271 00:17:28.509 --> 00:17:33.009 But then he knew where I lived, you know? And 272 00:17:33.049 --> 00:17:36.450 so things just started getting weird. And then all of 273 00:17:36.509 --> 00:17:39.029 a sudden your parents are saying, you know, there's some 274 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:41.940 guy with a Finnish accent trying to disguise his voice. 275 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:45.109 And he's calling here asking for you. And it was 276 00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:48.230 a few times, actually, before I realized that's who it was. 277 00:17:49.549 --> 00:17:51.230 It's just unsettling. 278 00:17:55.009 --> 00:17:58.380 The harassment and stalking had been going on for months 279 00:17:59.019 --> 00:18:01.240 when she finally decided she needed to go to the 280 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.039 police before it became more serious. 281 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.220 And it was a very uncomfortable conversation for both the 282 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:16.319 detective and myself because... He was bewildered. He informed me 283 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:19.140 that he had a look into Peter Nygaard's file, and 284 00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:22.390 he said his file is ten and a half inches high. 285 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:26.109 Nothing sticks to this man. I don't know what's happening. 286 00:18:26.390 --> 00:18:29.369 You have to get out of there. But he was 287 00:18:29.410 --> 00:18:32.049 afraid for me. Like he said, you need to quit. 288 00:18:32.769 --> 00:18:35.410 I don't know what's happening. I can't explain this. I 289

00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:36.470 can't protect you. 290 00:18:37.829 --> 00:18:39.029 Please, quit. 291 00:18:39.049 --> 00:18:39.289 Quit. 292 00:18:42.089 --> 00:18:45.269 And I wish I had. But I thought I could 293 00:18:45.329 --> 00:18:45.799 handle it. 294 00:18:50.309 --> 00:18:53.089 She was a single mother, relying on her salary alone. 295 00:18:53.789 --> 00:18:57.089 So she tried to tough it out. But Nygaard's behavior 296 00:18:57.549 --> 00:18:58.349 was relentless. 297 00:18:59.369 --> 00:19:02.730 I was so stressed that what had previously been thought 298 00:19:02.869 --> 00:19:08.250 of as chronic bronchitis that was being treated, my doctor 299 00:19:08.289 --> 00:19:13.130 sat me down and he said, what's, what's happening? And 300 00:19:13.150 --> 00:19:15.539 he brought up an x-ray and he said, my dear, 301 00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:21.019 you have been hyperventilating so much you have distended your diaphragm. 302 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:25.160 And that's what I knew. Nothing was going to get better. 303 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:33.059 Shortly after she gave her resignation, Nygaard raped her. The 304 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.599 woman decided that reporting the rape would be pointless. She'd 305 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:39.359 already learned the police couldn't help her when she'd been 306 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.900 stalked and harassed. there would be no consequences for Peter 307 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:51.579 Nygaard in his hometown. That was 1984. But for many 308 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:55.559 of the survivors assaulted in Winnipeg, like April Tilek, it 309 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:57.839 doesn't feel like anything has changed since. 310 00:19:58.700 --> 00:20:04.289 The Winnipeg justice system, they don't look good. I don't 311 00:20:04.309 --> 00:20:06.690 know how they can sleep with themselves with the number 312 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:09.369 of people who have come forward and the history of 313 00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:16.440 that this man had. How is this still happening? I mean, 314 00:20:17.180 --> 00:20:18.819 back then it was a different time, it was a 315 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:23.900 different era, and it's disgusting that it was able to 316 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:27.269 go on the way it did for so long. But 317 00:20:27.869 --> 00:20:29.730 how can it keep going on now? 318 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.079 In 2010, a family of four in California goes missing, 319 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.400 and the clues left behind send investigators on a years-long search. 320 00:20:49.299 --> 00:20:51.420 Is this a family on the run, or is the 321 00:20:51.460 --> 00:20:56.650 truth far more sinister? From ABC Audio in 2020, this 322 00:20:56.849 --> 00:21:00.210 is What Happened to the McStaves, coming August 11th. Listen 323 00:21:00.269 --> 00:21:05.089 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app. 324 00:21:05.329 --> 00:21:08.569 Or subscribe to 2020 True Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts 325 00:21:08.690

--> 00:21:10.190 to listen early and ad-free. 326 00:21:13.730 --> 00:21:18.099 This is CP Railroad. We're on Sutherland and Schultz in Winnipeg, Manitoba. 327 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:22.619 Nadine Moustous and I are walking down a bleak Winnipeg street. 328 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.680 There are potholes, a turned over shopping cart, abandoned looking 329 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.589 buildings on one side and a rail yard on the other. 330 00:21:31.690 --> 00:21:35.230 It's the afternoon and it's quiet right now. But Nadine 331 00:21:35.269 --> 00:21:38.089 tells me that after the sun sets, this street could 332 00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:40.529 become busy. and dangerous. 333 00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:42.750 A lot of girls that were in care, a lot 334 00:21:42.789 --> 00:21:43.650 of us were out here. 335 00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:45.750 A lot of them are not here. 336 00:21:45.769 --> 00:21:48.630 A lot of them got murdered. 337 00:21:48.650 --> 00:21:50.630 So I'm one of the fortunate ones. 338 00:21:52.990 --> 00:21:55.839 In the 1990s, this was a place where men could 339 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.579 buy and abuse children. 340 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.839 This was a kiddie track. This is where I would 341 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:03.779 come a lot of times when I was on the 342 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:11.460 run for survival, prostitution. They should actually call it pedophile 343 00:22:11.509 --> 00:22:12.619 track because that's what it was. 344 00:22:15.049 --> 00:22:17.410 Nadine came here as a way to survive. 345 00:22:18.890 --> 00:22:22.509 From 18 months, I was put in a foster home. 346 00:22:23.109 --> 00:22:25.259 I don't know why, I don't know how. I'm still 347 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:29.480 looking into that because it was part of the 60s scoop. 348 00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:31.619 She had been in and out of foster homes and 349 00:22:31.660 --> 00:22:34.859 institutions filled with abuse for most of her life. 350 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:39.670 Because, um, Back then, when you ran away, you had 351 00:22:39.670 --> 00:22:44.490 30 days to stay AWOL before they would release you 352 00:22:44.509 --> 00:22:49.329 from that institution. So I forcibly got myself released from 353 00:22:49.369 --> 00:22:51.849 that institution and I was running away. And then my 354 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:56.210 social worker put me in another institution and I stayed 355 00:22:56.230 --> 00:22:58.710 there for about a year and I did the same thing. 356 00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:04.460 Winnipeg has a long and broken history with Indigenous people. 357 00:23:05.430 --> 00:23:08.930 There are countless examples where the institutions and authorities that 358 00:23:08.970 --> 00:23:12.170 many take for granted for protection and care have failed them. 359 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.299 This is something Nadine experienced firsthand on the streets as 360 00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:16.880 a child. 361 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:20.420 When I first started out there, I was 11. And

362 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:22.599 the younger I was, the more richer the men were. 363 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.900 There was a lot of seats. Now I can identify 364 00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:31.960 a couple of those guys. Politicians or cops. A lot 365 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:33.279 of rich businessmen. 366 00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:37.339 There were also men from the provincial legislature. 367 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:41.349 And one of the times, one of the suits took 368 00:23:41.380 --> 00:23:45.670 me into the ledge in the basement and gave somebody 369 00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:48.250 a fucking blowjob in the basement of the ledge. And 370 00:23:48.269 --> 00:23:51.049 I remember that. And I blocked it out. 371 00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:57.359 On multiple occasions, Nadine says it was members of the 372 00:23:57.400 --> 00:23:59.559 Winnipeg police who were abusing her. 373 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.900 There was one time I got pulled over with a trick. 374 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:09.650 And because his brother was a cop, they let him 375 00:24:09.730 --> 00:24:12.829 take me. They didn't arrest him. They didn't take me 376 00:24:12.950 --> 00:24:16.150 out of that situation. And they let him have his 377 00:24:16.190 --> 00:24:18.069 way with me. And I was a child out there. 378 00:24:18.089 --> 00:24:25.509 I got charged numerous times for prostitution as a child. Arrested, 379 00:24:25.650 --> 00:24:29.190 brought before the courts. And it was on my record. 380 00:24:31.509 --> 00:24:34.980 One day, a wealthy-looking man in flashy clothes found her 381 00:24:35.059 --> 00:24:35.559 on the street. 382 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:41.240 He pulled up in a black Jaguar with his leather jacket, 383 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:46.880 blue jeans, cowboy boots, and a white button-up. And I 384 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.079 didn't know who he was because I was a child. Like, 385 00:24:49.180 --> 00:24:53.480 all I knew at the time was the street. And 386 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.259 so he picked me up, we negotiated, we went around 387 00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:59.960 the block, and then he drove me to the compound. 388 00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:05.460 The man assaulted her. Months later, he came by a 389 00:25:05.740 --> 00:25:06.299 second time. 390 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:10.950 I think it was in the same summer. He drove 391 00:25:11.009 --> 00:25:14.289 me to his compound. We went inside the warehouse part 392 00:25:15.029 --> 00:25:17.069 and he locked the door behind us. And I was thinking, 393 00:25:17.109 --> 00:25:18.710 oh my God, he's going to do something to me. 394 00:25:18.769 --> 00:25:22.430 Like my instincts just like heightened. And then he took 395 00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:25.579 me into his bedroom and he locked the door. And 396 00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:28.420 then I started panicking because I knew like something was up. 397 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.240 And I'm a little girl, like I don't know what 398 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:36.230 the hell this guy is going to do. And so 399 00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:38.730 he told me to take off my top. He had 400 00:25:38.769 --> 00:25:43.210 his pants unzipped. And then he pulled something out of 401 00:25:43.309 --> 00:25:47.089 his pocket and he put it on his hand. I 402 00:25:47.109 --> 00:25:50.089 didn't know what it was. And he made me, he 403 00:25:50.170 --> 00:25:55.250 forced me to fucking take coke. I just remember feeling 404 00:25:55.349 --> 00:25:58.710 scared after. Like, I don't feel right. What the fuck 405 00:25:58.750 --> 00:26:03.039 is this? And yeah, that was my first introduction to 406 00:26:03.079 --> 00:26:08.019 that drug. And I was 13. 407 00:26:08.019 --> 00:26:10.460 As a trafficked child living on the streets of Winnipeg, 408 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:13.859 Nadine had no idea who that man was when he 409 00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:18.750 assaulted her. But decades later, when Nygaard became international news. 410 00:26:19.269 --> 00:26:22.569 Reports say Nygaard was arrested last night and is now 411 00:26:22.630 --> 00:26:24.869 in custody in Winnipeg. 412 00:26:25.150 --> 00:26:28.089 More than 50 women have accused Nygaard of sexual assault, 413 00:26:28.170 --> 00:26:30.000 claims that date all the way back to the 1970s. 414 00:26:29.990 --> 00:26:30.890 Nadine made the connection. 415 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:37.980 When this night guard hit the media, I was just 416 00:26:38.019 --> 00:26:41.299 like all nonchalant. I'm like, oh yeah, he's a fucking pervert. 417 00:26:41.420 --> 00:26:44.279 He used to pick me up on kitty track. And 418 00:26:44.299 --> 00:26:46.119 then it dawned on me like, oh my God, this 419 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:48.980 guy is a fucking, he's a predator. He's a pervert. 420 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:51.400 I was getting mad and I'm like, I'm going to 421 00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:54.529 fucking charge him. Nobody else does it. I'm going to. 422 00:26:56.230 --> 00:26:59.869 Nadine met with authorities in 2020. 423 00:26:59.869 --> 00:27:01.250 It took a lot for me to go to the 424 00:27:01.269 --> 00:27:04.430 police because they were the ones that were criminalizing me 425 00:27:04.529 --> 00:27:06.309 for it for years. 426 00:27:07.630 --> 00:27:09.730 She was one of at least eight women to report 427 00:27:09.789 --> 00:27:13.490 Nygaard to the police in Winnipeg. We interviewed four of 428 00:27:13.529 --> 00:27:18.130 them for this podcast, including April Tleck. You first heard 429 00:27:18.190 --> 00:27:19.730 from her in episode four. 430 00:27:20.970 --> 00:27:26.740 I reached out to the Winnipeg police and had, I think, two, 431 00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:29.920 maybe three lengthy discussions on the phone. And then the 432 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.759 detectives flew out to Vancouver and to interview me and 433 00:27:33.819 --> 00:27:38.420 my mother on camera. And I thought, oh my goodness, 434 00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:42.420 stuff is going to happen. Finally, it's going to happen. 435 00:27:44.200 -->

00:27:46.250 Casey Allen is another of those women. 436 00:27:48.089 --> 00:27:51.430 I phoned the Winnipeg cop shop and said, I'm coming 437 00:27:51.529 --> 00:27:56.950 in and I'm pressing charges. And they seemed surprised and ill-equipped. 438 00:27:58.210 --> 00:28:01.190 as they have been all along. You go in, and 439 00:28:01.269 --> 00:28:03.190 one of them goes into the next room to tape 440 00:28:03.230 --> 00:28:06.230 and record it. You don't see the cameras or the mic. 441 00:28:07.250 --> 00:28:11.710 And then they review. The only follow-up question they had was, 442 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:12.750 how much had I been drinking? 443 00:28:13.970 --> 00:28:14.289 That's it. 444 00:28:15.309 --> 00:28:19.609 That was the only clarification they wanted. The biggest lack 445 00:28:19.650 --> 00:28:23.369 of respect I have been shown throughout this process by 446 00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:26.309 the justice system in Manitoba is a lack of communication. 447 00:28:27.670 --> 00:28:32.089 I certainly didn't get the sense I was supported. Victim services, 448 00:28:32.150 --> 00:28:36.589 you get voice messages. So you flay your soul in 449 00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:41.839 front of strangers and they hold that in their hands 450 00:28:42.859 --> 00:28:46.059 and you put it out there and nothing comes back. 451 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:51.900 Several months passed before the women heard about the results 452 00:28:52.059 --> 00:28:56.769 of their complaints to police. Then, one by one, they 453 00:28:56.809 --> 00:28:59.430 received phone calls from prosecutors in Winnipeg. 454 00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:01.559 He will not be charged here. 455 00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:04.779 I know this isn't the answer you were looking for, 456 00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:07.400 but we only pursue cases we think we can win. 457 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.440 And that just broke my heart, man. It gave me 458 00:29:11.579 --> 00:29:13.319 no faith in the justice system. 459 00:29:18.029 --> 00:29:21.329 We asked the Crown Prosecutor's Office in Winnipeg why nothing 460 00:29:21.369 --> 00:29:25.279 was happening. They declined to talk to us. We asked 461 00:29:25.299 --> 00:29:29.470 the police chief for an interview, also a no-go, but 462 00:29:29.509 --> 00:29:34.660 he did provide a statement. Finally, official confirmation. After a 463 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:39.079 10-month investigation that involved reviewing 15 files, 8 cases were found. 464 00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:44.440 were referred by police for potential prosecution. In the end, 465 00:29:45.259 --> 00:29:46.240 no charges were laid. 466 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:53.059 Makes me want to shut down. And I did shut down. 467 00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:59.539 And I was like, I gave you guys everything I 468 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:02.900 told you, how it looked inside, the car that he drove, 469 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:07.640 what he was wearing, and what happened. I said, that 470 00:30:07.700 --> 00:30:13.440 should be clarification enough. They said, we need concrete evidence. 471 00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:19.599 We can't go by historical, because it's historical. And then 472 00:30:19.819 --> 00:30:23.109 they said, one significant point is because I didn't know 473 00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:26.910 who he was at the time. But now I know 474 00:30:26.990 --> 00:30:29.630 who he is, and now I'm saying something, so they 475 00:30:29.670 --> 00:30:33.970 have a contradiction right there. How was I supposed to 476 00:30:34.009 --> 00:30:38.450 know who he was? I didn't know until after, until 477 00:30:38.470 --> 00:30:40.990 my flashbacks and stuff were coming back to me. 478 00:30:44.230 --> 00:30:51.150 I knew the second I gave my statement, nothing was 479 00:30:51.170 --> 00:30:55.150 going to happen. I knew I was going there to 480 00:30:55.210 --> 00:31:01.740 hear No, we're not taking this case any further. Who 481 00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:08.309 the heck wants to have him charged here? And it 482 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.410 traced back that he had all these people in his pocket, 483 00:31:13.410 --> 00:31:14.450 all these people. 484 00:31:14.210 --> 00:31:18.250 Covering up for him. There were pictures of him in 485 00:31:18.289 --> 00:31:23.500 the papers all the time with politicians, politicians, There were 486 00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:27.279 so many powerful people that he was photographed with. 487 00:31:29.660 --> 00:31:33.339 It feels to me like Winnipeg is rewarding Nygaard in 488 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.579 a way for keeping us quiet for so long with 489 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:39.079 the intimidation. 490 00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:39.460 Tactics that he used. 491 00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:44.759 What message does that send to other victims of sex 492 00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:48.339 assault and to other predators? 493 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:50.789 Oh, guess what? 494 00:31:52.190 --> 00:31:55.089 Keep them quiet long enough, it'll go away. 495 00:32:05.220 --> 00:32:07.759 In an earlier episode, we told you about the milestone 496 00:32:07.819 --> 00:32:12.670 Peter Nygaard's company celebrated in 2018. It was its 50th 497 00:32:12.730 --> 00:32:16.789 anniversary in Winnipeg. We now know this was also the 498 00:32:17.170 --> 00:32:20.269 50th anniversary of his very first rape charge in the city. 499 00:32:21.390 --> 00:32:24.250 And eight years earlier, the CBC had broadcast its first 500 00:32:24.309 --> 00:32:29.319 documentary about Nygaard, revealing widespread workplace abuse and reports of 501 00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:36.049 sexual harassment and sexual misconduct. Still, Winnipeg embraced their hometown hero. 502 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.660 My guest on the runway today really needs no introduction. 503 00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:44.059 Internationally acclaimed fashion mogul Peter Nygaard joins us today. Welcome 504 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:45.019 back to Winnipeg. 505 00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:47.160 It's so nice to be home. 506 00:32:47.900 -->

00:32:49.680 Well, we're so happy to have you here, and you're 507 00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:52.279 celebrating a big year because this is 50 years for 508 00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:54.019 your success now, I guess. 509 00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:54.960 I can't believe it. 510 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:55.960 It's been 50 years. 511 00:32:56.019 --> 00:32:57.000 It just went by like that. 512 00:32:58.779 --> 00:33:02.539 The women he'd attacked in the city watched on as 1,800 513 00:33:02.539 --> 00:33:05.940 people attended a gala in his honor. The Winnipeg Free 514 00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:09.029 Press called it a party that would rival any Hollywood bash. 515 00:33:10.269 --> 00:33:15.329 Among the celebrities and dignitaries, country star Tanya Tucker, Winnipeg's mayor, 516 00:33:15.970 --> 00:33:19.970 and the current premier of Manitoba, Finnish hockey star Timo 517 00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:30.960 Solani sent his regards by video. Living in Winnipeg, it's 518 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:33.920 impossible to miss that Nygaard had friends in high places. 519 00:33:34.940 --> 00:33:38.049 That wasn't lost on the women he raped either. It 520 00:33:38.069 --> 00:33:41.150 helps explain why so many women didn't feel safe reporting 521 00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:44.809 him there. Perhaps they feared what's now happening to the 522 00:33:44.910 --> 00:33:48.150 other survivors attacked in Winnipeg who decided to tell their 523 00:33:48.190 --> 00:33:51.910 stories to authorities. Survivors like April Tleck. 524 00:33:53.190 --> 00:33:57.109 When you tell your truth, which is the truth, there's 525 00:33:57.190 --> 00:34:00.049 no reason for us to lie about this. When you 526 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:04.250 tell it and someone listens and hears you and believes you, 527 00:34:05.970 --> 00:34:09.949 and the justice system going to bat for you, and 528 00:34:09.969 --> 00:34:12.849 doing the right thing, finally making this man be held 529 00:34:12.869 --> 00:34:15.449 accountable for what he did, it is huge. 530 00:34:17.949 --> 00:34:21.210 Which is exactly how it's playing out in Toronto right now, 531 00:34:21.750 --> 00:34:25.170 where Nygaard is currently in custody, charged with raping six 532 00:34:25.230 --> 00:34:25.730 women there. 533 00:34:27.309 --> 00:34:31.659 So bravo to those Toronto peeps who got this going, 534 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:33.699 and my survivor sisters. 535 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:36.820 Out there, it's a big, big win for them. It's 536 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:38.599 a big win for all of us, really. 537 00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:42.000 It's a big win, the acknowledgement of what he's done 538 00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.659 to so many. And on the other side of that coin, 539 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:54.099 when you tell your truth, which is the truth, and 540 00:34:54.119 --> 00:35:00.300 you have a massive body of evidence and corroborators, and 541 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:09.719 you're not supported It's like getting gutted all over again. 542 00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:11.739 It's really horrible. 543 00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:16.329 Serena Hicks is now looking towards the courts in New 544 00:35:16.369 --> 00:35:19.949 York for healing. That's where a civil class action lawsuit 545 00:35:19.989 --> 00:35:22.469 has been launched on behalf of survivors everywhere. 546 00:35:23.610 --> 00:35:27.409 I'm hoping that when it happens down in the States 547 00:35:27.530 --> 00:35:31.699 that I can stand outside that courthouse. I don't need 548 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:35.360 to hear guilty because I know he's guilty. But I 549 00:35:35.420 --> 00:35:43.380 just need a place to stand and say I'm a 550 00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:44.639 survivor at that point. 551 00:35:44.659 --> 00:35:50.010 Because so far I've not been fully surviving this. 552 00:35:52.110 --> 00:35:58.730 Give me that opportunity to stand outside a courthouse and 553 00:35:58.789 --> 00:36:00.670 say I'm a survivor now. 554 00:36:06.530 --> 00:36:09.760 For Nadine Moustous, nothing will take the sting out of 555 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:12.480 how let down she feels by her city and the 556 00:36:12.539 --> 00:36:15.039 authorities she hoped would help her find justice. 557 00:36:16.659 --> 00:36:21.570 Self-care is essential right now. But so is getting all 558 00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:24.650 these memories, all these flashbacks, all these predators that did 559 00:36:24.690 --> 00:36:27.469 that to me as a child. A lot of the 560 00:36:27.510 --> 00:36:31.710 predators I can't remember, but the ones I can. After 561 00:36:31.769 --> 00:36:34.769 night guard makes me want to shut down. Because those 562 00:36:34.809 --> 00:36:37.360 charges didn't go through what makes me think the other 563 00:36:37.449 --> 00:36:41.159 ones are going to go through. Like this city holds 564 00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.280 a lot of fucking secrets and a lot of men 565 00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:47.900 in this city have done it to women for years. 566 00:36:48.469 --> 00:36:52.210 Indigenous girls, indigenous women. And they've gotten away and this 567 00:36:52.269 --> 00:36:55.550 is another way that the justice system is just letting 568 00:36:55.630 --> 00:36:56.829 it fucking get away with it. 569 00:36:59.210 --> 00:37:02.710 The survivor who was raped by Peter Nygaard in 1984 570 00:37:02.710 --> 00:37:05.550 after trying to get help from the Winnipeg police hopes 571 00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:07.530 to find meaning in the failures. 572 00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:11.579 I don't want this to bring my city to its knees. 573 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:14.920 I don't want the shame of that man, the stain 574 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.519 of that man to be what defines this city. I 575 00:37:18.579 --> 00:37:20.780 want how we overcame this to be our legacy, not 576 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:24.750 what he left behind for us to clean up. I 577 00:37:24.809 --> 00:37:27.389 want this city to be able to forgive itself and 578 00:37:27.409 --> 00:37:30.550 to recognize that

what happened, not in a punitive fashion, 579 00:37:30.849 --> 00:37:34.820 not in a vengeful way, look back and dissect how 580 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:39.940 this Frankenstein was stitched together so that we never recreate 581 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:40.719 another one. 582 00:37:45.110 --> 00:37:48.050 Today, Nygaard has been sitting in a jail cell, first 583 00:37:48.150 --> 00:37:51.010 in Winnipeg and now in Toronto, for more than a year. 584 00:37:52.340 --> 00:37:55.679 He applied for bail again in Toronto, and again it 585 00:37:55.719 --> 00:38:00.599 was denied. He's also waiting for Canada's justice minister to decide. 586 00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:03.920 Will he face the Canadian charges first, or be sent 587 00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:08.949 to New York, where he's accused of sex trafficking? Nygaard 588 00:38:09.010 --> 00:38:12.590 continues to deny all of the allegations against him, saying 589 00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:15.250 they are all lies and part of a conspiracy to 590 00:38:15.289 --> 00:38:21.539 destroy him and his reputation. I recently spoke to one 591 00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:24.460 of the women in Toronto whose case has resulted in charges. 592 00:38:25.219 --> 00:38:28.139 On the very day she got that news, it was 593 00:38:28.179 --> 00:38:31.920 an emotional conversation. She told me for decades it's felt 594 00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:34.639 like she's had an internal wound that just wouldn't heal. 595 00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:40.659 Until now. Hope for that same kind of justice in 596 00:38:40.699 --> 00:38:45.130 Winnipeg has evaporated. The survivors there may never get to 597 00:38:45.170 --> 00:38:54.360 know how that feels. If anything you've heard in this 598 00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:56.679 episode has left you looking for someone to talk to, 599 00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:02.030 please visit cbc.ca slash uncover. We have a number of 600 00:39:02.050 --> 00:39:04.929 resources there for those in need of help and support. 601 00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:18.239 Evil by Design is a co-production between CBC Podcasts and 602 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:22.739 The Fifth Estate. There's a new three-part premium documentary TV 603 00:39:22.780 --> 00:39:26.889 series based on this podcast. Evil by Design, Surviving Nygaard 604 00:39:26.969 --> 00:39:31.550 tells the stories of those who survived Peter Nygaard. Uncovering 605 00:39:31.610 --> 00:39:35.030 decades of sexual assault, the series investigates the culture that 606 00:39:35.070 --> 00:39:38.829 kept it hidden and explores how whistleblowers finally helped bring 607 00:39:38.869 --> 00:39:43.880 him down. Watch Evil by Design, Surviving Nygaard, streaming now 608 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:51.409 on CBC Gems. This episode was written and produced by 609 00:39:51.550 --> 00:39:56.059 Ashley Mack and me, Timothy Sawa. Our associate producers were 610 00:39:56.099 --> 00:40:00.159 Sarah Melton and Eunice Kim. With assistance from Scott Anderson, 611 00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:04.440 Lynette Fortune and Rachel Ward at The Fifth Estate. Mixing 612 00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:07.920 and sound design by Evan Kelly and Graham MacDonald. With 613 00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:12.230 technical assistance from Laura Antonelli, Aranda Williams and Tim Lorimer. 614 00:40:14.730 --> 00:40:17.989 Special thanks goes to David Downey, Bob McEwen and Laura 615 00:40:18.010 --> 00:40:21.750 Mullen for her reading of Jane Doe. Additional material from 616 00:40:21.789 --> 00:40:26.989 CTV News and Global News. Emily Connell is our digital producer. 617 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:32.179 Original music by Olivia Pasquarelli. Fact-checking by Emily Mathieu. Legal 618 00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:36.579 advice from Sean Mormon. Our senior producer at CBC Podcasts 619 00:40:36.739 --> 00:40:39.840 is Chris Oak. And the director of CBC Podcasts is 620 00:40:39.960 --> 00:41:07.980 Araf Noorani. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.