Full Transcript for Building a Client-Centered Law Firm

firm that we really want to help the clients. 11 00:06:39.000 --> 00:07:02.000 Yeah. That's the biggest difference in my life is that a lot of the firm is self executing now. I spend a lot more time with my dog and exercising and stuff, and my wife too, and, and the income is a little bit more predictable. And, you know, I think my lifestyle is a lot better. 12 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:34.000 Yeah, I mean, the firm should be designed to, you know, fit within what you want in your life. Right. So it shouldn't run you ragged, that's for sure. Because that's, you know, you can't help clients if you're running around like crazy. You don't have systems in place, you know, you're just doing everyone a disservice. Our John says that very clearly. You know, if you're craft's not together, you're not running a good firm, then you're dropping the ball. You're not getting the clients, you're doing them a disservice. 13 00:07:34.000 --> 00:08:31.000 Some of the disconnect that I had, and I don't know that R. John and I disagree on this, but I mean, he's so stressing the business aspect of a law firm that I feel like I'm one of the few that really liked and looked forward to and respected the legal part and advocacy and you know, to jump into his program, you almost have to remove yourself from that. And like he said, unless you want to be doing that. And then the other thing that I've discovered over time, and I think we're going to talk about it, is I like clients. I like talking to them. I like solving problems. And now when I talk to people like yourself and other lawyers, I realize that I have Actually a superpower. And that's what I kind of want to share with, with some of your listeners, is that they can, they can have that power too. It's. You just have to be intentional about it. 14 00:08:31.000 --> 00:09:10.000 I love it. And one of the things you said opening up there was that you could compete with larger firms. Like someone told you, hey, you could compete with larger firms. And I love that because, you know, I talked to so many startups, I have clients that we do marketing for that are, you know, a year in the business or just getting started. And a lot of them feel in the beginning like, well, I can't compete with these, these folks. And so, yeah, you are different. You're unique. You're a superpower. How you handle yourself versus kind of what you were told would be the right way to do it. You're doing what you want to do and what feels right. And that makes you different and makes you stand out from the other ones, you know, other firms in your market. 15 00:09:10.000 --> 00:11:51.000 We're still competing against a lot larger law firms. And this is a very crowded space here in Southern California, as you could imagine, probably the most crowded space. But there was a. I'm going to go back to like the early reading that I did, a young lady by the name of Kristen Marquis who has a marketing company here and now she's in Orange county and she wrote an article about how to be a ninja, like a lawyer, you know, to find those little cracks where you can, you can get your cases and that I took that to heart and, and I really worked it. And I still think that that's available for a first year lawyer, which is simple. Two things. You need to create content, original content. Okay. I know it's hard to find the time to do that, but you got to do it. You have to let the world know that you did it. Okay. And, and then if you're going to create content, you might as well make it focused into areas not only that you're interested in, but that you will become a foremost or a high authority figure for. And I was able to do that in California. Here, some people argue that I might be the foremost authority on uninsured and underinsured motorist law in California. It's a very confused area, by the way here. And to give you an idea of how confusing it is, I get at least one to two calls from other lawyers every day who have read my articles or blog posts and want to run their cases by me, get advice, get forms, things like that. And that was all done 12 years ago, you know, when I started blogging on this particular topic. So it's evergreen and keeps on producing, I think is the point. And anyone can do that. Any young, you know, lawyer starting out can, can, can establish themselves as an authority. And of course there's more tools now than when I was. What I would do is I would, I would come in Saturday morning, write two blog posts, push them out on whatever social media I used at that point in time, on Tuesday and one on Thursday, put it on my website, which increased the SEO, by the way. And so, so I did it like I committed to it. Every Saturday I came in and wrote two blog posts. So it, but by six months though, the phone started ringing and I was amazed. I'm so old. I'm so old, Kevin. I can't believe that anyone finds someone online and hires them as their lawyer. I mean, I'm still, it still blows me away. Okay, 16 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:52.000 Come on. 17 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Yeah, so. 18 00:11:57.000 --> 00:13:03.000 Well, you know, so to become an authority, you don't just do it once or twice, right? You committed and did it for a long time and that's still sticky today, which is amazing. So. And yes, you can find the cracks and crevices, you can find the niches that the bigger established firms, maybe you're like, yeah, I'm not interested in those things. So, yeah, everyone listening, if you feel overwhelmed or whatever, you can find something that is a good fit for you. Hopefully you enjoy doing it too. But look for those opportunities to where you can become an authority and that could be a springboard to doing other things as well. So great advice. I do want to talk about, you know, some of your processes there in the firm and we talked about this earlier backstage, I guess if you call it with your clients and you like working with your clients, you like engaging with your

clients, but you also, you again have a process for how you handle a client from start to finish and kind of what your, your goals are along the way. So I guess please share you know, more about that and we'll just, I 19 00:13:03.000 --> 00:15:09.000 mean, I have a little bit of a sales background. I don't, I don't, I don't consciously use, you know, sales techniques. I, but I, you know, when I was a kid, I sold shoes and then in, before I started law school, I sold furniture at a high end furniture place. So it's been, it's very natural for me to, to, to sell. And then I think Arjon, you know, kind of identified saying, you know, selling legal services is sales. Don't, don't try and you know, Be fancy about it. Don't say you're high and mighty because you're a lawyer. You're selling a service, okay? So things started to click that way. And another thing clicked around the same time. I had a colleague in a. In a business networking group. I was complaining to him that there was a perfectly good wrongful death case that I was really well qualified to handle. And they didn't hire me. Okay? I was crestfallen. I couldn't understand it. And he got me. He gave me a book, Robert Cialdini's Persuasion, which wasn't. Turns out not to be the exact right book. The right book was his next book, which was Pre Suasion. Okay? Robert Cialdini. If people don't know him, look him up. It's easy enough to, you know, find out about him. So the idea is, what's this customer journey gonna look like? First of all, who's calling on the phone? What. You know, what's. What's that like for someone, you know, calling the law office for the first time? And I can tell you this much, it's frightening. The expectation is that you're gonna be bounced around to this person, that person. You're gonna have to give tons of information, and then you don't get to speak to a lawyer, and then who knows? And then you don't know if this guy's working out of the backseat of his car or whether he's a legit lawyer. All this. This doubt that people come have. Yeah, spinning. So I try and take phone calls. If I'm not in court or at a deposition or something. I try and take the calls from. From. From people, and I. First things first. And my whole staff is trained. We're courteous because we know people. As I said, people are nervous calling the law office. They don't know what to expect. 20 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:10.000 They. 21 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:22.000 They expect the worst, I should say. And then we try and help them on the phone if they. If they are kind enough to call us. So sometimes it's just like, oh, you need to file a police report in this circumstance. You need to call this insurance company. 22 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:23.000 You. 23 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:29.000 You know, whatever it is. My staff and I try and help them on that. When they call us, we're just. 24 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:30.000 We're. 25 00:15:29.000 --> 00:16:42.000 We're helpful. We're going to. We don't have our

handout. We're not like, it's $500. Then we'll give you the answer what to do with your towed car. You know, it's nothing like that. I mean, we answer the question. We're we're there for them. Okay, so that's the first thing. The, the next thing is that we want to answer all the questions like, don't. I've seen this as a technique with, especially with younger lawyers is they're like, okay, well, sign up with, with me and then we'll, we'll get to the meat and potatoes of your, your case, you know, and people want answers. Clients are better clients when they're educated. They make better choices, all of that kind of stuff. So spend as much time as necessary with a new caller. If we don't, let's say I don't get the call right away, we send out a text message saying, hey, we want to talk to you about your case. Here are a couple articles about our firm or an article that I've written recently. It starts to precondition that we're qualified, we are professional, interested in their case. A little bit about that. We use a program called hona. And Lead Docket. 26 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:43.000 And Lead docket. 27 00:16:43.000 --> 00:17:26.000 Yeah. And so a lot of my lawyer colleagues are just blown away that we do this, like, schedule a call and, and that they get a reminder on text or email when you go to the dentist. I mean, that's what happens. Right? And so why wouldn't they have that expectation for a law office that you contact them and follow up and that you're in a schedule, they're not going to call at a time go, oh, well, the lawyer's out, and, you know, it's not going to happen. They get the confirmations and things like that. It makes them feel nice and warm and toasty, that they're dealing with a professional organization and people forget or, or whatever, that too. 28 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:35.000 As a reminder, I talk about Domino's or Uber or those. They constantly tell you what's happening, your car's on the way, they'll be there in two minutes. 29 00:17:35.000 --> 00:19:03.000 It's the expectation, it's consumer expectation. And lawyers feel generally that they don't have to, they don't have to worry about that. And it's. They're wrong. They do. This also stems another, like, quick story is I got a call about someone who had very, very serious motorcycle accident and he was interviewing law firms at his house. He's literally, it's like one of those movies. His leg was up in the air, you know, with, on a pulley kind of thing. Right. And I, you know, I went there and, and I talked to him and in front of me was, was very professional printed materials from other law firms, folders with, with the, you know, that and instructions what to do. And I came, I had a manila folder and a business card, you know, and I'm like, you know, I don't have all the tools to compete for these cases. So. So it changes your mindset, which is you, if you were hiring someone, you would want them to have materials to explain what the process is to show that, that you, you're not just doing this, you know, they see to your pants that this is what you do, that you don't also do three other types of law. And you're just trying to get this case in the door. And so, so you, you want to, you know, have those materials with you, you know, and, and it helps the confidence, I think. What for me signing up in big cases. So it's like having a clean out. 30 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:09.000 If your office was just a mess and not organized, how do they think you're going to handle their case? 31 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:10.000 That's right. 32 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.000 You're going to drop the ball, miss things or maybe not organized. 33 00:19:13.000 --> 00:21:16.000 Yeah, there was, there was a speaker that, I can't remember his name right now, but he said that the clients look at your car, okay. And then, and if you, if you. And like a bunch of junk falls out of there, that's not a good sign. And in fact, on sign up of a case once I was at, I remember as Huntington Hospital and it was a very serious accident case and the family liked me. And then I noticed they followed me out to the parking lot, they wanted to see what car I got in. So I'm not saying that, that you know, these days if, you know, most of it's done digitally, you know, but you know, that's the consumer mindset. So, so when we get that first call, here we are, answer all those questions and then every lawyer should have answers to the major objections internalized already because that's, that really helps sell a client, which is you have, you're not like, well, I don't, you know, you know, I don't know how much your case is worth or I don't know, you know, how long this is going to take and so forth. And sure you don't have a crystal ball and sure you can't guarantee stuff. We actually did something. I swear to you, I'm the only lawyer that answers this question. We audited 250 files and we put down the date of the accident and the date that the client got the check. Okay. And then we averaged it. Right. And in our office, it's pretty lightning fast that we get a client a check on average about eight to nine months. Okay. Now, a fender bender case can be a lot faster. A litigated head injury case is going to be a lot longer. But the, but the client could say, okay, well, we'll start with the eight months at this law firm. And my, my case is simple or my case is hard. I love to give an answer because they don't like saying, oh, it depends, you know, you know that that's what. That's the lawyer. Typical lawyer at. So I like to have an answer to that question. 34 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:24.000 The other thing, I think that's great to have. You know you're not guaranteeing nothing, Right? When law firms ask me, if I hire your SEO, what's the results I'm gonna get in 30 days? 35 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.000 Nothing. 36 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:40.000 Yeah, it's just something you can't give a strong answer. But I love having that average because it's not

just some national average. It's like, hey, based on our files for our clients, this is our average. I love that. 37 00:21:40.000 --> 00:22:11.000 The, the other thing that you have to keep in mind is people are very suspicious of lawyers and bad stories that go with them. So are you going to take all the money and give me a bunch of lawyer double talk? That's the main. I think that's one of the main objections, and I answer it up front, that. Now, I'm not saying other lawyers should follow this. It's up to them. But I tell them upfront that at our law firm, we never take more money than the client. 38 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:12.000 Ever. 39 00:22:11.000 --> 00:24:38.000 Ever. And then there's lots of good reasons why we could, should, and ought to. But I know the younger lawyers, if it says 40 or 45% on their fee agreement, that's what they get. That's what they get. Well, it's hard to get a five star review and you've taken more money than the client receives. Okay, So I weave into that conversation. Look, would you ever give me a five star review if I took more money than you got for your broken arm? No, of course not. Right, so. So we've got you in mind. We got you in mind. And then one of the things I say also is that, look, you don't have to just take my word for it, okay? We do something that's not required by the standard of care in California. But I think good lawyers, good. It's superior care, is that we do a preliminary distribution worksheet and we never pay anybody until a client signs off, including the lawyer. And by the, by the lawyer's fee, we have a little statement. I agree that this fee is totally fair. Okay, so, so I tell them look, you're going to have an opportunity to check me at the end, you know, and not, not just take my word for it right now. And that starts to condition them that I'm not trying to rip them off. Right. And I say look, in 35 plus years of doing this, I've never had a dispute with client over money. So, so that's not, you're, you're not buying a dispute with it with a smart ass lawyer that, that's got, you know, that can, can, can beat you at this. Because I could, I could insist on higher fees sometimes. Now we've grown large enough in this firm where the kind of fees that I've now given back in a year are in excess of $200,000. Okay, that's a bitter pill to swallow for a small law firm. Okay. But I don't have two billboards on Ventura Boulevard that would cost about that for all year. My advertising is, is you. You're it. You. My, my fairness to you means that I'm going to get your neighbor's case and your mother in law's case when she gets run over by a truck, that those cases are coming to me. And so, and then I asked them at the end that if, if I answer all your questions, if we're responsive to you during the course of the, the case and, and I get a great result, is it fair for me to ask for a five star review at the end of the case? And of course there's, of course they going to say yes. 40 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:39.000 Right? 41 00:24:38.000 --> 00:25:06.000 And even when they say yes, everyone, everyone that's listening to this knows it's not easy to get reviews even from, even from very satisfied clients. The, the rate used to be about 20% for me and now it's up probably closer to 75%. So because people will do it later, they, yeah, they mean to do it and then they go on and they don't have a Google account. They got to. Now we're not doing this. 42 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Well, you're planting the seed very early right out of the gate. So you're not just. And I like that because everything you're talking about here, you're, you're starting with the end in mind. So what are the objections they're going to have? Let's address them. Let's be very. 43 00:25:20.000 --> 00:26:11.000 And, and let's be crystal clear. Giving five star service is more difficult and more costly than not doing it. Okay, so, so this is a like an investment that the whole firm has to be in On. Okay. And there's a lot of lawyers that see this as a business and that, that is sort of, you know, an unnecessary expense, you know, of taking phone calls, spending five minutes rather than two minutes. You know, you could, I could probably make more money in a year by, by really cutting down the customer service. And in legal services, the bar is so low that even anyone giving effort to customer service will, will excel, in my opinion. That's my opinion. So you don't have to be. 44 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I call or even call, you know, prospects or a firm that wants to maybe work with us and get law offices. We're like, no, terrible. It's pretty bad there. And there's some great firms that did a good job, but they, that's why they've been on the show. That's why they. 45 00:26:30.000 --> 00:28:00.000 Yeah, and there's some other things. Some of it can be digitized. I mean, the HONA program for us, along with our case managers reaching out on a set periodical basis. When there's some kind of change in their case, they automatically get notified. So if it's gotten like they're done treating, now we're going to be doing a demand. They get a video. Okay. Now HONA has the like little cartoon that's generic about, you know, oh, we're done treating. And you know that. And we replace those with videos of me. So, so with client gets, gets to talk to me about what's going to happen next. And, and they like that. They, they. That's me saying, okay, we're. We're doing a demand. What's a demand? And what's going to go in and what can. So, so that's another touch that we have, you know, with people and you know, our John used to say, and this shows also dates him as well as me, is that there's this theoretical cocktail party that's going on and you hear people complaining about their lawyers. Like, I haven't heard from them in two years. I don't know what's going on with my case. You know, it went south. That kind of stuff. And they're supposed to answer, well, Barry's

my lawyer. You know, we almost get too many calls from him and you know, and, and he did our case like bing bang. And whenever I called he picked up the phone. So that comparison supposed to take place? 46 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:01.000 You know it. 47 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:10.000 And I don't think there people have cocktail parties anymore. I don't know. 48 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:33.000 Not. Yeah, not like these two. No, I love it. I mean, Hona is great. They're good friends of mine. Yeah, they Have a great program and there's a lot of systems out there that other lawyers listening could, can leverage. You know, Barry was making this happen regardless. Now he's got some tools that are helping him make it more effective. 49 00:28:33.000 --> 00:29:34.000 And we also, we do some of, some of the old school stuff, which is we do a shock and awe box for all new clients. It's loaded with jelly beans. It's got their paper copies of the paperwork that they sent us and the retainer agreement. It's got like, what to expect. It's got whatever our latest thing is, letter openers, you know, pens, things like that. So we do that at the beginning so they feel like, okay, this is, this is my stuff. We're, we're engaged. I know that they're my lawyers, you know, and it's all branded stuff, you know, so, so, so it's out there. And then we send something three months later and we send something six months later and then we send something to past clients, including one more thing we do to touch clients is we do digital birthday cards with, with Starbucks cards in them. 50 00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:35.000 Excellent. 51 00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:50.000 Clients really seem to like that. I don't know if it's because the cost of everything is so ridiculous. Maybe people aren't going out for that, you know, pumpkin spice latte like they used to, but now, you know, this one, this one's on Barry. So, so we do lots of, lots of stuff. 52 00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Love it. I mean, it's, I haven't heard many firms honestly that, that do those exact things or like a shock and all box. I think that's, that's more something like, you know, a marketing agency would send you a shock and all box. So I think that's an awesome idea. And I like, I think the old school methods or handwritten cards, things like that are, are they're going to stand out even more today. Whereas everything is digital. So when they receive those things so they can get the gift card, even it's online and go use it. Like imagine, you know, your law firm doing all that for you over an extended period. 53 00:30:24.000 --> 00:31:00.000 Just really saying we appreciate you. You know, we, we do so much to have them call us. I mean, you're in the marketing space. I mean, I don't know what the cost is per client. I'm not that smart. But we do a lot to try and get them to phone and then, then we're going to ignore our client list. I mean, that's insane. And when we, when I can't go on TV or billboards, I mean, I, I need

my past Clients to, to refer. And I can't let them be sitting in front of the TV and go, you know, I'm going to call that other guy, you know, see, let's see what it's like with him. You know, I can't afford that, you know. 54 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:14.000 Yeah. Or if you, you help them, then they have a friend or family member that gets hurt and then that's my business. You don't recommend, they don't recommend you because they just say, you know, I did get a settlement, whatever, but it was not a great experience. 55 00:31:14.000 --> 00:32:15.000 We run about 50% of our new cases are from referrals. I don't know if that, that's probably higher than, than a lot. The other 40%, the next 40%, I should say not other, is like SEO type searches. And then the other 10% are various crazy marketing schemes that I've been, you know, trying to use to move the needle, you know, and lately I've been spending a lot of my brain power such that it is on trying to hack and figure out AI search. And I was talking to a guy that does some of our marketing and, and I told him this, I can't think of anything else that this, this is, I mean, if I miss this boat that I missed. Right. He says, well, if you figure that out, you're worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Please share. 56 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:54.000 Well, yeah, everything's changing. You know, it's something to step up and keep up with. And if any firms listening, you know, there's lots of different ways people can find you now, and that's changing pretty rapidly. So obviously as a marketing person and agency owner, that's top of our mind every day. But you know, you got the things that still work and some time like you're saying to spend on areas that are new, new up and coming, can you get in and ride that wave just like when YouTube came around or TikTok. So some things can be a distraction and might be too early to adopt, but some things aren't going anywhere. Like AI is definitely not going anywhere. 57 00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:27.000 So yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna take a larger percentage. That's probably for another time to talk about. But the good news for marketers like yourself and lawyers that, that, that have been sensitive to this is your SEO as a platform for what's next is simply the best possible thing you can do. Everything else is, you know, there are some, some little hacks that I'll share with you, but that's, that's, that's the basis of it all. You still have to be a found lawyer. So. Yeah. 58 00:33:27.000 --> 00:34:03.000 Which if you're unique, it's based on your reviews, your reputation, you know, it's based on good content that's helpful to, to someone looking. That's the basis of it all. That's why. What, what's effective? Yeah. If you're doing good work and having great experiences for clients and they give good reviews and, and talk about their experiences on Reddit and other places like that, you're going to win no matter what platform comes, comes along. And to you, you know,

you don't, you don't compromise on what you believe and having those longer calls and answering the questions. That is your secret sauce. 59 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:40.000 Right? I enjoy it. So that's, it's like, not fair, you know, that, that, that's of all the things I do in my practice. I like talking to people and solving their problems. And who knew, you know, way back when, when they said, you know, Arjon says, well, what's your value proposition? What makes you unique? What. I'm like, gee, I'm experienced. I'm, you know, all this stuff. Right. Who knew, who knew that my real value proposition was giving customer service and good legal advice? Who knew that that should have been, that should be assumed for every lawyer. 60 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:41.000 Right. 61 00:34:41.000 --> 00:35:03.000 But it's not. I'm now a unicorn or something. It's crazy. So I understand the way that, you know, people are scaling their law practices. You, some of the, the personal touch gets left off, but at least for us right now, this is how we work and this is, you know, if someone wants a law firm like that, we're here. So that's, you know, that's how we do it. 62 00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:26.000 Well, I'm glad you're around and glad that you're doing it the way you're doing it. So can be some for everyone to look up to and learn from. And speaking of that, everyone, thank you so much for listening and tuning into Barry. I mean, this guy's got it going on. I would say get to know him, connect with him. Barry, what's the best way for our folks to, to reach out and, and connect with you? 63 00:35:26.000 --> 00:36:30.000 Sure. Yeah. I mean, they can call my law office anytime, which is 818-22-26994. They can send me a personal email. I will answer it if they have any questions. That's my initials BPG at my name. Barry P. Don't forget the P. Goldberg dot com. That's the best way on other platforms. I mean, there's messaging and things like that that they're glad you know, I'm glad to look at, but you can call me directly again. That's my style. And I think I told you in our pre interview that since I wrote all that content on uninsured and underinsured motorist law and have become kind of a brain source, we do a lot of cases for other lawyers outside of California. So you don't have to be a California lawyer if someone has a question about how we do it with a California insurance policy. I've helped people nationally with that. Or if someone from out of state is visiting California, is in an accident, don't understand how the uninsured motorist law works. I get lots of calls on that. 64 00:36:30.000 --> 00:37:12.000 Excellent. That's great. Yeah. Please reach out to Barry, connect with him, especially if you have clients or cases that are coming up that that require his expertise. Please connect. I always offer two people. Reach out to me, you know, through LinkedIn or any of my DMs through Instagram, and just say, hey, I would love to meet Barry and I'll be happy to do an introduction email or something like that for you. Well, Barry, thank you so much. I love what you're doing. Thanks for sharing. Great, thanks story and some of it here today. I know we could talk about a million other things, but we'll leave everyone with that and then I'm sure we'll have you on again soon to talk about some of the other little things that you mentioned and things that we 65 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:20.000 can go down rabbit holes next podcast. I'll tell you what I've been finding out on AI search hacks. Okay. 66 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:32.000 And I'm happy to contribute because that's what we're doing all day. I got people looking into this and helping our clients for that all day long and trying to understand what's coming next. So that would be a fun episode for sure. 67 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.000 All right, cool. 68 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:59.000 Hang out with me for a sec, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in as always, and we'll see you on the next episode.