Full Transcript for Off Record: Held at Gunpoint (with Tom Breyfogle)

and he gets on the subway where he actually meets a woman that he kind of hits it off with. And so he then offers to walk her home. So he walks her home. He's making his way back through the city, and he's wearing a scarf. 00:03:29 Speaker 3: It's cold. 00:03:30 Speaker 2: And he's walking along, continuing to East 10th Street, just sort of thinking about what he's going to do when he gets home, just relaxing for the night. So what Stanley didn't know is that he was sort of being watched. And as he walks toward his home, he's getting to the corner of 10th and 5th Avenue, and everything changes when a man suddenly grabs him. Okay. before he could really even understand what was happening, he turns and finds himself staring at a large gun. And obviously that's incredibly scary. And then other men appear behind him and they shove him toward a waiting car. And I think there's probably a moment like this in every crime story where in this split second, you go from feeling safe and sort of you know, life going on as expected to knowing you are in imminent danger and you no longer have control over what happens to you in a way. And sometimes that moment sort of stretches out while your brain runs through options. But if there's a gun in your face, you don't have time. And these men order him into a nearby vehicle and he gets in. So these kidnappers really make their intentions with him very clear. They are going to take him to an ATM and they're going to get money out. And then they're going to release him. That's what they tell him. But they also say that if he resists, it could cost him his life. And so the car pulls away from the curb. And, you know, if I'm in that situation, I imagine you're wondering, like, what's in it for them to let me go once they do this? Because then I'm just going to run right to the police and identify them. 00:05:08 Speaker 3: And an ATM in 1998, you can only take out like $ 200. Right. And so on this car ride, they blindfold him. 00:05:16 Speaker 2: And he doesn't recognize their voices. He doesn't know them. But he starts listening for any clue he can find, sort of anything to understand more about their motivation beyond just the money. So they're going to take him to an ATM. They're going to get some money out. Yeah, it's not a lot, right? What'd you say, like $ 200? 00:05:34 Speaker 3: I think that was the max then. 00:05:36 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, it's not, you're not going to get out someone's life savings at an ATM. 00:05:40 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:05:41 Speaker 2: But they're pumped on this idea that they may get a couple hundred bucks. So they ask for his PIN number. And at that point, he's like, okay, once they have my PIN number, they'll be able to see how much money is in my account. So I'm just going to tell them. And he tells them he has $ 110, 000 in savings and they are just like blown away by this. And so they restructure their plan. They're like, we're not just taking you to the ATM tonight.

We're going to keep you with us. And in the morning, we're going to go into the bank and we're going to withdraw $ 50, 000. 00:06:12 Speaker 3: Oh, no. Yeah. So if this guy, let's say he only had $ 1, 000, he maybe could have been let go that night. 00:06:19 Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, no. 00:06:20 Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah. 00:06:21 Speaker 2: If he had only been. 00:06:25 Speaker 2: Less good about saving money. So the car, they go to the ATM, they get out the couple hundred dollars, and then they continue on to a very rundown hotel in Brooklyn. And he's pulled out of the car, still blindfolded, pushed down these hallways and up flights of stairs. And, you know, you're told never to go to a second location, but what choice did he really have? So now he's in this unfamiliar building, surrounded by people he doesn't know with no idea of what's actually going to happen next. Because now they have his PIN number. They have his card. They don't necessarily need him. They might need him to walk him into a bank, into a massive withdrawal of money, but they don't need him to go keep using his ATM card. 00:07:07 Speaker 3: Did he have a cell phone? 00:07:08 Speaker 2: I don't know if he had a cell phone, but they weren't letting him access anything, see anything. He was being supervised. I think there were four of them. And then there were other people at this sort of like party that they were going to at this hotel. I don't know that it was really a party. It was people drinking and using drugs. So he decides he's just going to follow their lead because in certain moments they start acting like very sort of lighthearted. Like they're excited about getting this money. He tells them it's actually my birthday's tomorrow. And they think that's hilarious. So they start offering him things at this party that he doesn't want, you know, alcohol, drugs. There are sex workers there that they offer to put him in touch with. And he just decides, okay, I'm going to stay calm and I'm just going to take in every detail that I can so that if I get out of this, I can identify them. So he starts paying very close attention to their sounds and movements, their voices, their conversations. And hours pass and they are partying. They're smoking and drinking and they're letting their guard down a little bit. And at one point, though, one of them recognizes that this is someone who we've kidnapped them. We need to be serious about this. And then so they switch on him and all of a sudden be scary again. say, if you try anything, we're going to kill your family. So at that point, he's feeling the weight of this. He's like, okay, I don't want to die here, but I definitely don't want my family to die. And so he gets like very afraid, but just maintains a sense of calm and recognizes like the best thing he could do right now is not antagonize them and just appear approachable and non-threatening. And I don't know exactly how this gets revealed. I think he tells them He is, because they ask,

a federal prosecutor. So it's, you know, it's a very specific type of lawyer. And they're like, OK, we really don't want to get in trouble with a federal prosecutor. Yeah. 00:09:16 Speaker 3: So at this point, he's probably realizing they don't know him because he doesn't know if these are colleagues or if these are enemies. 00:09:23 Speaker 2: Right. 00:09:24 Speaker 3: So if I was him, I'd be if they're asking all of those questions and all of the getting high and then being like, guys, we're kidnapping someone. I'd be like, these are strangers. And in some ways that makes it scarier. 00:09:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. They had maybe watched him for a block or two, I think, but this wasn't like a long-term targeting. And so they start asking him for advice on criminal matters. And he's like, okay, I'm just going along with it. I mean, it's keeping him alive. Like every minute he can stay alive and have them see him as a source of real money the next day, the better off he'll be. But as the night continues, they start to really play out their plan for the next day. They plan to walk him into a bank and withdraw 50 grand. And then they start thinking, what's it going to look like for us to walk into a bank with this guy that looks nothing like us and he is withdrawing a bunch of money and we're all with him? 00:10:20 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:10:20 Speaker 2: Like, this looks weird. And we can't send him in there by himself. 00:10:24 Speaker 3: Yeah, he would just tell them immediately. Yeah. 00:10:27 Speaker 2: So they start to worry about the attention that their crime might end up attracting, and they decide that it's in their best interest to release him. 00:10:36 Speaker 3: Release him and not even go through with the withdrawal. 00:10:39 Speaker 2: Right. 00:10:39 Speaker 3: Okay. 00:10:40 Speaker 2: And so that doesn't totally comfort Stanley Alpert. He's sort of like, I'll believe it when I see it. So he keeps paying attention. You know, what are they talking about? They're still acting erratically in one moment. They're going to release him in the next. They're threatening him. They're arguing about what the best course of action is. And he's still blindfolded this whole time. And they put him back into a car. 00:11:06 Speaker 3: Is this the next morning? 00:11:07 Speaker 2: This is later that night. 00:11:09 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:11:10 Speaker 2: And he hears duct tape. being pulled and he's like, okay, this is it for me. And so they get in a car. I don't know if I already said that, but they get back in a car and they leave again. And he's been listening to them all night and he's like, where are they taking me? Where are they taking me? And 25 hours has gone by at this point. So I guess it is well into the next day, but the car arrives, they push him out of the car and He's still not even sure where he is. He's like, I don't want to take off this blindfold. Am I... Like, who's going to be there if I take it off? Who's going to see me? 00:11:46 Speaker 3: But his hands are loose? Yeah. Okay. 00:11:48 Speaker 2: They just push him out of the car. And so he waits, I don't know how many minutes. And then he finally takes the blindfold off. And he's in Prospect Park in Brooklyn. He runs to a local pizza shop. He calls the authorities and... tells them what happened. And, you know, even though he's an attorney and he had no criminal record or reason to lie to the authorities, it's like a very bizarre story. You know, there were four young men that kidnap him. They push him into a car. They want to withdraw some money. They find out he has more money. Then they get scared. And then they just keep him at this party for 24 hours. Then they release him. And so they're trying to figure out, okay, well, who are these people? And Stanley's like, well, I have a few details that I was able to remember. And he is able to describe a little bit about the men from their voices and the nicknames they were being called, the type of threats they were saying to him. He also recalls that they had mentioned kidnapping someone named Stephen a couple of nights prior. 00:12:54 Speaker 3: So.... 00:12:56 Speaker 2: Also, during the night, they had gone to a sandwich shop and he, I don't know if it was like he could see under the blindfold a little bit, but he was able to notice the tile pattern. 00:13:07 Speaker 3: Hold on. They took him into a sandwich shop blindfolded and no one working there thought anything about it. 00:13:12 Speaker 2: So I don't know if he was like blindfolded in the sandwich shop or if they were like act normal, but he was at the sandwich shop and was like, I remember the tile. 00:13:24 Speaker 3: Okay. 00:13:24 Speaker 2: And so he relays that information to the authorities. Pretty soon, the FBI is out walking the streets of Brooklyn looking for the specific tile pattern. They find it. And this other detail crosses his mind where when they were at this party type of situation at this rundown motel, one of the women there was trying to reach one of the kidnappers who had gone to somewhere else briefly. And she's calling him on a phone, like his phone that she's calling him on had belonged to the man named Stephen that they had kidnapped. So they had stolen Stephen's phone and they were using it. So they find this Stephen person and they subpoena his phone records. And from there, they're able to connect to. Actually, she wasn't a woman. She was a girl. She was 16. Yeah. And from there, put together through phone numbers, who was actually there that night. And so they were all arrested and And they were all, I think, under the age of 25. And then there were two girls who were 16, which obviously is so sad. But the men were the kidnappers, Louis Sanchez, Wilbur Ford, Terrence Agostini, Sean Limerick. And they were all sentenced to 15 years to life. 00:14:44 Speaker 3: Wow. 00:14:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, because they had violently kidnapped him. 00:14:47 Speaker 3: And. 00:14:48 Speaker 2:

The teenage girls that were there were also sentenced, but I think it was less than six months. 00:14:54 Speaker 3: Wow. Do you know if they let him eat or have water or anything in those 25 hours? 00:15:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did offer him food at different points. And he, I don't know if he accepted it, but it sounds like he tried his best to just match their energy. 00:15:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty smart. 00:15:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm not going to freak them out by being you know, I'm going to get you in so much trouble if you don't let me go. 00:15:18 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:15:18 Speaker 2: Probably not what they would want to hear. And he lived to tell the tale. So, I mean, you think about like being kidnapped for any amount of time, terrifying, 25 hours. That is a long time. And I imagine he's not sleeping. 00:15:33 Speaker 3: No way. 00:15:34 Speaker 2: You're just on the adrenaline of like survival. You don't know where you are. You're with people who, you know, have... for whatever reason, like a huge incentive. They either want or need money that badly that they'll go to great lengths to get it. And now they know you have a lot of it. It's a scary place to be. 00:15:52 Speaker 3: That is so scary. Being blindfolded for 25 hours in that area with all the people, I would be having panic attack after panic attack. 00:16:01 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, he stayed so calm. It's like amazing. I lived in New York after college and I moved from where I went to school in Pullman, Washington, to the East Village. And I bartended at a bar called the National Underground. And it was on East Houston between Allen and Eldridge. And I didn't live far from there. And so I thought one morning at like 4 a.m., I would just walk home. And I'm like, at this moment in time, I'm 21. I graduated college a little on the younger side. And so I'm 21. I'm walking home and this man appears behind me. And all I could think to myself was, oh, it's four o'clock in the morning. Like the only people out right now, even though I was out, are probably like marathon runners. 00:16:52 Speaker 3: I mean, bars close at three or four in New York. Right, right. 00:16:58 Speaker 2: And I just thought, and also he looked quite young. He looked like a teenager. And then before I know it, he's walking like parallel to me, like shoulder to shoulder. And I'm like, oh, no, this is not good. And I had a shoulder bag and he just in a split second just turned to me. I mean, nothing like what happened to Stanley Helper, but he turned to me and he grabbed my shoulder bag. And when that happened, I turned and then my back was up against like a building wall. And I had been applying for jobs. I mean, I didn't moved to New York to bartend. Not that there's anything wrong with that. That was just like, I was making some cash while I figured out what I was doing there, which I probably would have made more doing that than I ever made in New York. But in my purse, I stupidly had my passport, my social security card, my driver's license, my keys. And like, my family's not in New York. I barely knew anyone there at the time. So all I could think to myself was, I can't let him get my purse. And I don't know how it happened, but like in the scuffle, I got my purse back and he ran. And as I'm watching him run away, I'm just standing there like a deer in the headlights, like what now? And I realized how young he was. And I remember just thinking like, oh my gosh, like I'm probably older than this kid. But yeah, I was fine and I didn't lose anything. I got very lucky. 00:18:22 Speaker 3: You're very lucky he didn't have a gun or a knife. I know. 00:18:25 Speaker 2: I was like, I shouldn't have done that. I should have just given him my purse and figured it out later. But yeah, you never know how you're going to react in those moments. 00:18:31 Speaker 3: Of course. Yeah. 00:18:32 Speaker 2: Luckily, it's never happened to me again. So, Tom, you have a story of your own. But before we get into that, You have such a fun background and I wanted to talk a little bit about it. You produce and edit our show, but you are also a musician. And so I'm a millennial and like all good millennials, I started going to emo rock shows in junior high and high school. Tom is a former member of Reliant K and And secondhand serenade. Both. 00:19:13 Speaker 3: It's amazing. 00:19:14 Speaker 2: And for me, this was awesome to hear. 00:19:17 Speaker 3: We knew each other for like six months before I mentioned that to you. I know. 00:19:20 Speaker 2: And I was like, what? It's amazing. I'm from the Seattle area and no stranger to that scene. I remember going to this venue, El Corazon. 00:19:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Right off the highway. It used to be called the Off-Ramp. 00:19:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was right by REI. 00:19:35 Speaker 3: I've played there with many bands. 00:19:37 Speaker 2: It's like, I wonder if we were ever there at the same time. That's so crazy to think about. But you also have Birds in the Airport. 00:19:44 Speaker 3: Yeah, Birds in the Airport, my solo project that's been pretty dormant for the last few years, but I'm in the middle of making an album now. And The Knife, that's actually Birds in the Airport music. Anytime I compose something that sounds similar to that vibe, I credit it as that. And this week I've been doing a new podcast for Exactly Right, and it'll be a new Birds in the Airport song. 00:20:03 Speaker 2: I love that we have an original Birds in the Airport, you know? 00:20:06 Speaker 3: Do you know that's my voice screaming at the beginning of The Knife? No. When the beat hits, it's me screaming through a guitar amp. 00:20:13 Speaker 2: I did not know that. I actually think I'd have to listen to it right now to even hear that. Yeah. I don't think I realized anyone was screaming, which I like. 00:20:23 Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't want it to sound like a scream. It just sounded nice. 00:20:25 Speaker 2: Okay. So there

you have it. Tom is the person screaming in our theme music. So you mentioned to me something that had happened to you at one of these shows, and I thought it would be a story you could tell on the knife. 00:20:41 Speaker 3: Totally. All right. So I'm going to tell this story to the best of my memory because this is a story I rarely tell. 00:20:48 Speaker 2: Why do you rarely tell it? Like, why do you think that is? 00:20:50 Speaker 3: Because it's not like a dinner party story. And I'm not trying to out trauma someone if someone brings up something. So I really remember telling it one time years after it happened. And that's part of this story when I retold it. But no, I never really bring it up. 00:21:05 Speaker 2: OK, well, I feel honored to hear it. 00:21:08 Speaker 3: Also, if I laugh during this, It's not a funny story. I'm just laughing at the 17-year-old version of myself in this story, thinking like, what the hell? I can't believe you put yourself in that situation. Yeah. Or not even that I put myself in the situation. I really wasn't at fault for anything. It's just I can't believe that happened. 00:21:25 Speaker 2: We never know how we're going to react to something. Totally. 00:21:27 Speaker 3: Totally. So last week, my wife and I were driving out to Pioneertown near Joshua Tree to see a band called Local H. 00:21:33 Speaker 2: But this is like present day. 00:21:35 Speaker 3: This is last week. This is October 6th, 2026. Okay. 00:21:39 Speaker 2: You guys are driving to Pioneertown. 00:21:41 Speaker 3: Driving to Pioneertown to see this band called Local H. I've been a big fan of theirs my whole life. They're one of the bands who kind of taught me how to play drums by playing along to their CDs. Just a two-piece band. The drummer changes out about every 10 years, which is a pretty good run. They've been a band like 40 years. 00:21:57 Speaker 2: Okay. 00:21:57 Speaker 3: Wow. So I'm still a fan of that band. And when I was 12, they were the first band I ever saw like without a parent. And then I saw them again. 00:22:06 Speaker 2: That's a core memory. 00:22:07 Speaker 3: Oh, totally. My dad just dropped me off. My dad had a ticket to the show, but just was like, you guys enjoy yourselves. 00:22:12 Speaker 2: He's like, no, I'm not going in. That was for your mom. 00:22:16 Speaker 3: So I saw them then when I was 12. Saw them when I was 14. Then we lost a drummer. They got a new drummer. So there had to be a break. They didn't come back till I was 17. 00:22:24 Speaker 2: Were you ever watching the shows like, I could be your next guy? 00:22:27 Speaker 3: Back then I would have, yeah. Yeah. December 1st, 2001, I'm 17. I'm a junior in high school, locally just finally coming back to Cleveland. They were on a tour called the Six Ways to Sunday Tour, which even at the time it was pretty ridiculously cheap. It was $ 6 tickets, $ 6 t-shirts, and $ 6 CDs. 00:22:45 Speaker 2: Okay. So you're like, this is in my 17-year-old budget. 00:22:48 Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. So they were playing a place called Peabody's Down Under in Cleveland. It's downtown Cleveland. 00:22:54 Speaker 2: What is downtown Cleveland like? I've never actually been there. 00:22:57 Speaker 3: It's not that big. When I was a kid, I remember it being very big. But it's a city where the baseball field is part of the skyline. It's like a major part of the downtown area. Then there's a lot of big buildings. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is over by the water. And that's where the football stadium is. And then you go down a hill and you're in an area called the Flats. And that's where all the bars and other concert venues are. But this one is right by the baseball stadium. 00:23:22 Speaker 2: This is like a safe area? Not really. 00:23:25 Speaker 3: An O-1... It's probably safer now. It wasn't like a bad, bad area, but no, it wasn't that great of an area. 00:23:32 Speaker 2: Okay. 00:23:33 Speaker 3: So they're playing Peabody's, 600 people. It was sold out. And there was an opening band called Evil Beaver. That was the only opening band. 00:23:41 Speaker 2: And Omen, maybe. 00:23:42 Speaker 3: Maybe. So in 2001... Also, I'm giving a lot of random details. They all do pay up. Okay, good. So stick around. In 2001, I was a vegetarian and I lived in Canton, Ohio, which was a terrible place to be a vegetarian. And Canton did not have Chipotle, but Cleveland did. 00:24:02 Speaker 2: I wonder if there is a place in Ohio where it's like better to be a vegetarian. 00:24:07 Speaker 3: Well, now anywhere would be. Oh, really? Yeah. Then, then. So yeah, me getting Chipotle in Cleveland was like fine dining. I thought it was so good. So anytime I went to Cleveland, I had to go to Chipotle. And Chipotle wasn't anywhere near this venue. It was another half hour away. 00:24:22 Speaker 2: But it's worth it. 00:24:23 Speaker 3: It was very worth it. So I got my delicious veggie burrito. I eat half of it. I save the other half because I want to experience that twice in one day. 00:24:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. 00:24:32 Speaker 3: And then so we go to the concert with the burritos in the car. So we're at the concert, Evil Beaver. They were all right, but they weren't my favorite band. They weren't local age. They weren't local age. So my friend Mickey and I were like, I want to go eat those leftover burritos. And we're like, yeah. So we walked back through the snow. 00:24:50 Speaker 2: Whose car is this, by the way? 00:24:52 Speaker 3: It's my car. Okay. 00:24:53 Speaker 2: What kind of car do you have? 00:24:54 Speaker 3: It was a red 1992 Geo Prism. 00:24:57 Speaker 2: Like I can picture this car exactly because I feel like that was the car that... Your parents were done with it by the time you could drive if. 00:25:05 Speaker 3: You're our age. That's exactly what it is. 00:25:07 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, perfect. 00:25:08 Speaker 3: It was my dad's car in 1992, and then I got it in 2000. 00:25:12 Speaker 2: Amazing. 00:25:13 Speaker 3:

So we walk out to the GeoPrism, and it doesn't have automatic locks. Of course it doesn't. I unlock the back door, grab the burritos, unlock the front door, get in, unlock the door for Mickey, turn the car on because it's freezing outside. Some music starts playing. Mid-burrito bite. And I look up and there's a man sitting in my backseat. I see him in the rearview mirror. 00:25:37 Speaker 2: So he had been in the car? 00:25:39 Speaker 3: I think what he had to do, I don't think he was just going to pick a random car and sit in it for hours. I think when I unlocked the back door, got the burritos, and then was like coming in, he had to swoop in right then through the back door. 00:25:51 Speaker 2: And you didn't notice? 00:25:52 Speaker 3: No, neither of us did. 00:25:53 Speaker 2: That is amazing. I mean, this is like teenage boy brain. 00:25:59 Speaker 3: There's a lot of that in this story. 00:26:00 Speaker 2: Okay. 00:26:02 Speaker 3: So my mouth is like filled with guacamole and this dude is sitting in the car. And before we can even like scream or anything, he's just like, hey guys, hey guys, hey guys, everything's cool. My car's broken down. I just need a jump. It's right down the street. He's about 26. He's a little shorter than me. He's wearing a hoodie and a winter jacket. And he was super calm and polite. And then he immediately asks our names. 00:26:24 Speaker 2: But what are you guys, are you guys looking at each other in this moment or what is the energy? 00:26:30 Speaker 3: The energy is wide eyes, like what's going on? But the guy's like, I just need to jump from my car. What's your name? I'm like, Tom. He's like, Mickey. He's like, well, Tom, my car needs a jump. You're going to drive me out of this parking lot and take me there right now. 00:26:43 Speaker 2: Right. 00:26:44 Speaker 3: And he's like smiling so big. And I'm just like, no, man, no, man, we got to go on this concert. We got to get out of here. And he's like, oh, come on, you're not going to leave me stranded. And then his smile just goes to this evil look. And then the smile comes right back. And he's like, come on, it'll just take five minutes. And when he gave me that look, I was just like, OK, he's in charge right now. 00:27:03 Speaker 2: Right. 00:27:04 Speaker 3: Part of me could have jumped out of the car. I don't know, because there were two of us. The car is running. There's like food on our lap. If we'd have jumped right out of the car, he could have just stayed in the car. So I don't know. Maybe that's what we probably should have done. Yeah. 00:27:16 Speaker 2: I mean, I wasn't there, but it seems like if someone's in the back of your car and demanding you drive them places, it's like, you know what? This car seems like a great car for you. You should just take it and I'll get. 00:27:27 Speaker 3: Out of your way. He probably would have just taken the car. 00:27:30 Speaker 2: Yeah. But, you know, your mouth was full of guacamole. 00:27:33 Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:27:33 Speaker 2: A lot to process. 00:27:35 Speaker 3: I was 17. I wasn't stupid. I knew this was bad. 00:27:38 Speaker 2: Did your friend know? 00:27:40 Speaker 3: He had to know, but he definitely at this point was so much more calm than me. Mm-hmm. Inside, I'm panicked already at this moment. And so he's pointing us out of the parking lot. We put the burritos down at Mickey's feet and the guy's directing me where to drive. He says, we're going to go to Euclid Avenue. And then we're driving down the street and he just starts casually talking about guns. 00:28:03 Speaker 2: Oh, great. 00:28:03 Speaker 3: Yeah. He says he never leaves the house without his Glock. And he says most of the time he carries a revolver, too. And I'm just like, you have that on you right now? And he's just like, yeah, and just pulls the Glock out. He doesn't point it at us, but just wants us to notice there. 00:28:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, like, obviously very threatening, but you're also... This is like pre-navigation system. You have to listen to where he wants you to go and you're looking for the street signs. Like you need to pay attention. 00:28:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. Good point. We're driving and then he's just like, oh, right there, right there, right there. Turn. And I turn and it's a highway off ramp. 00:28:38 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 00:28:39 Speaker 3: And there's a semi and a car coming. I flip a U-turn and just start sliding off the road. It's the middle of winter and it's snowing. There's no accident whatsoever. everything's fine. I'm shook up now over that. Adrenaline is just going full on. And the guy just starts cracking up laughing. He's like, you're crazy, Tom. He just keeps using my name. 00:28:58 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. It's a powerful tool to connect with someone. 00:29:02 Speaker 3: He just has to keep saying Tom. So he has this giant smile. He's calling me crazy and just like laughing. And he's just like, where are you from? And I say, Canton. And then immediately his face gets complicated. It looks like a face of regret. And he's just like, Looking around, he's like, man, I got cousins in Canton. They're about your age. You remind me of them. 00:29:23 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. 00:29:24 Speaker 3: And then he starts smiling again. He's like, you're making me feel old. What a ride. 00:29:27 Speaker 2: You should be like, your cousin is my best friend. Yeah. And we have big plans tomorrow. 00:29:34 Speaker 3: Let me go. 00:29:34 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:29:35 Speaker 3: Then we're driving. I just remember him repeatedly going, Canton, good people in Canton, good people in Canton. people in Canton. He's just like muttering that now while I'm driving. 00:29:43 Speaker 2: I hope we have listeners in Canton right now being like, you know what? 00:29:45 Speaker 3: Yeah. So then he's like, do you guys like smoking weed? I had never smoked weed at that point in my life. 00:29:50 Speaker 2: That actually shocks me given the scene that you were in. 00:29:54 Speaker

3: That I had never smoked weed? Yeah. I was around weed. way too early. So it scared the hell out of me. I was 11 and I was like the one friend who didn't smoke weed growing up. 00:30:04 Speaker 2: I mean, no rush. You're not going to miss anything. 00:30:09 Speaker 3: Totally. So he's like, you guys like weed? And I'm like, no, I'm just terrified. And Mickey was just like, yeah, love weed. 00:30:17 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. So Mickey was along for the ride. The U-turn didn't face him, the highway off him. 00:30:22 Speaker 3: Oh, he yelled during the U-turn. We all screamed during the U-turn. The guy was like, ecstatic that Mickey liked weed. And he's like, Mickey, I'm smoking you out tonight. I mean, Mickey was still, I'm sure, terrified. 00:30:33 Speaker 2: So he's an eternal optimist. 00:30:35 Speaker 3: I bet Mickey would have smoked a joint with that guy if he busted one out right then. 00:30:38 Speaker 2: Unbelievable. I'm nothing like Mickey. 00:30:40 Speaker 3: So then while we're driving, this is the final stretch. It's only about two miles. I'm kind of thinking this gun's going to be at my head at any moment. We're getting closer to the destination. He asks if we have cell phones. Mickey didn't. I said I did. And then He wasn't too aggressive, but he's like, give me your cell phone. I give him my cell phone. Mickey starts to pull his pockets out to prove he doesn't have a cell phone. And he's like, keep your hands out of your pockets. 00:31:12 Speaker 2: You're like, you're scared of me right now, sir? You popped up out of nowhere in my backseat and threatened my life with a gun. 00:31:18 Speaker 3: So he points at this Chinese restaurant. It was abandoned. It was already closed with their parking lot in the back that no one from the street could see. And we pull in and I'm just like, where's your car? Where's your car? There's no cars back there. 00:31:29 Speaker 2: Oh, bad sign. 00:31:30 Speaker 3: And he's just like, park over there. And the second I park, Mickey and I just jump out of the car. Just on instinct. We obviously couldn't talk. We're just immediately out of the car. Yeah. And he just walks out super slow and super offended. He's like, damn, Tom, you're acting like I'm about to rob you. Chill the fuck out. 00:31:46 Speaker 2: You're like, I'm acting like you're about to rob me? You just carjacked me. 00:31:51 Speaker 3: Yeah. So then he hands me my cell phone back. 00:31:54 Speaker 2: That was so nice of him. 00:31:55 Speaker 3: Yeah. He's like, put that in your pocket. And he's like, Mickey, get back in the car. So Mickey gets in the car. 00:32:01 Speaker 2: And you don't? 00:32:02 Speaker 3: You're like. I don't. 00:32:03 Speaker 2: Goodbye, Mickey. 00:32:04 Speaker 3: Goodbye, Mickey. So now it's just me and this man standing in the snow in this parking lot. And again, I'm just like, dude, where's your car? And he goes, okay, so this is what's going to go down. I know a house down the road where they're selling. They got

tons of drugs. He pulls the gun out again, not holding it up, but just showing it to me again. I'm going to go in there, going to heat up the house with this Glock. I'm going to run out. You're going to drive me away. Then we're going to split the money three ways and I'm going to smoke Mickey out. And I'm like, no, man, I can't do that. He's still calm. He's just looking me up and down. 00:32:40 Speaker 2: You're like, did you not hear me? I don't even smoke weed. 00:32:43 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not enticing. And he's like, then give me $ 20. I'm like, okay. I had no wallet at the time. I had six $ 20 bills in my pocket, just loose. I reach my hand in and just like grab one without him seeing the wad of money. I hand him the $ 20 bill. And then he immediately goes, okay, so this is what's going to go down. There's a house down the road. They have drugs and a bunch of money. I'm going to go heat it up with my Glock. 00:33:11 Speaker 2: So this is a new plan. 00:33:12 Speaker 3: It says word for word. 00:33:14 Speaker 2: The same plan. 00:33:14 Speaker 3: The exact same thing. 00:33:16 Speaker 2: Okay. 00:33:16 Speaker 3: And then I'm just like, dude, I can't do that. And now... He gets the most aggressive he's been all night here, where he's just like, then give me $ 20. I give him another $ 20. 00:33:27 Speaker 2: You're like, how many houses are we going to go through? 00:33:29 Speaker 3: He tells the story. He eventually tells it four times. But after he tells it the third time, I'm like, dude, I can't do that. And he's like, Tom, don't forget that I have a Glock and you just have your fists. And I'm just like. 00:33:42 Speaker 2: You're like, I didn't forget. I can assure you. 00:33:44 Speaker 3: Yeah. And then he's like, I know you have a pocket full of cash. I don't know how he, I mean, a pocket full of cash is not $ 120, but he did for some reason could tell I had more. So after he told the story the fourth time and I said no four times, I gave him the fourth $ 20 bill. So he's $ 80. He pulls it out and looks at it with like a sparkle in his eye and disappears into the darkness. 00:34:07 Speaker 2: He's like mission accomplished. 00:34:10 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:34:11 Speaker 2: And you have to wonder, you know, did he need to do the whole carjacking to get the money? probably could have just slid into your backseat, said, give me all your money. And you probably would have. 00:34:22 Speaker 3: That would have been much better. Yeah. 00:34:24 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. 00:34:26 Speaker 3: OK. 00:34:26 Speaker 2: And so is Mickey watching from the car? 00:34:29 Speaker 3: Mickey's in the car. And so I get back in the car and we're driving back to the concert. And Mickey, this is what Mickey told me. I bet he wouldn't have done this. And I'm so happy he didn't. He said when he saw me handing over money, he was contemplating to run and tackle the guy, which that would have ended very poorly. 00:34:46 Speaker 2: What is that car? I mean, first of all, let's just like put this in perspective. This has just happened to you and your friend, Mickey. And Mickey is how old? 00:34:56 Speaker 3: We're both 17. 00:34:57 Speaker 2: You're both 17. And in your 17-year-old boy brains, you're like, we will return to the show. 00:35:04 Speaker 3: We drive back to the same parking lot. 00:35:06 Speaker 2: What was that car ride like? 00:35:09 Speaker 3: I remember just kind of feeling numb and just a lot of adrenaline. But we were still going to the show. Right now, if that happened... I don't think I would go to the show. 00:35:19 Speaker 2: No, I certainly wouldn't go to the show. 00:35:20 Speaker 3: Nor would I drive back to the exact parking lot. Right. 00:35:23 Speaker 2: But how far are you? Because in a way, it's like, well, I'm putting some distance. 00:35:27 Speaker 3: It's about two miles. 00:35:28 Speaker 2: Two miles. 00:35:29 Speaker 3: Okay. The Chinese restaurant doesn't exist on any map now. I was trying to find exactly where it was, but it was already abandoned back then. 00:35:36 Speaker 2: Wow, this is a commitment to local age like they didn't know they had, you know? 00:35:40 Speaker 3: Totally. So we go back into the show. It's hot and sweaty in there, 600 people. The show was amazing. They debuted a lot of songs that night, or at least in Cleveland, songs that weren't out yet. And like one of my favorite songs of theirs they played that night. It's called Hands on the Bible. And thankfully, that song doesn't make me think about that night for some reason. But also that show is on YouTube and you can see me in like the second row. And I look pretty normal. Anytime a crowd surfer comes and like a leg would hit me, I like turn back and like have a paranoid look where I don't know if that paranoid look is because I was just robbed. So the show ends. And there's an after party in the small room. It's called the Pirate's Cove. And the after party is this band called Dysfunctional Ray, which I was friends with. And we should have just left when the show ended, when the other 600 people left, so we could go back to the parking lot. 00:36:28 Speaker 2: Arguably, you should have left earlier. 00:36:30 Speaker 3: Yeah, we should have. But no, we stay. I mean, you. 00:36:33 Speaker 2: Paid $ 6 for those tickets. 00:36:34 Speaker 3: Yeah. So then we go to the Pirate's Cove and are watching our friend's band. And there's like 20 people in there. At this point, anyone can come in. It's not a ticketed event. And we're standing there watching them. In turn... There's the guy just staring at me with a giant smile. He's in the venue now. 00:36:50 Speaker 2: He's in the music venue? 00:36:52 Speaker 3: Because now the venue's open to anyone for the after party. 00:36:55 Speaker 2: Oh, so did he walk? 00:36:57 Speaker 3: I don't know. He must have. And he's standing there smiling at me like I was his best friend. And Mickey and I just start leaving and he follows us. And we go outside. He is so high

and not high on weed. He was on hard drugs plus probably blackout drunk. And he's like, Tom, Mickey, high-fiving us. His friend walks up. He's like, I want to introduce you to Tom and Mickey. They're from Canton. They're good people. And then he's like, you guys want to go smoke a J? And we're like, nah, man, we're out of here. 00:37:26 Speaker 2: We're like, we've been through this. We don't. 00:37:29 Speaker 3: So then we left. We go to the car and then we drive home safe. At this point, I would not be able to recognize the guy unless someone told me for sure it was him. But then 16 years or so later, in February of 2017, Reliant K, we were playing the House of Blues in Cleveland. And when our bus strolled into town, we went right by that parking lot. And so I told the guys that story. That's when I was saying I remember telling this story another time. I told them and they all seemed very enthralled. And I was kind of like, oh, I should probably write about this so I don't forget about it. So I wrote a song about it that day from the perspective of the guy. And I've never released that song, but I might on this new Birds in the Airport album might finally put it out. 00:38:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I mean, like writing about your own experience, especially one that was terrifying. Also, like you're so young, 17, to be threatened in that way. I mean, maybe your age in a way in that moment helped you because you didn't. I think at 17, this goes for every 17 year old. Maybe I'm speaking about myself specifically. It's like, You cannot conceive of how much danger you could be in sometimes. Like the things I did at 17, you know, and maybe that allowed you to drive like a stunt driver, give him your money one bill at a time. Like if you had given him all your money at once, like maybe he would have been, you know, wanted more and then said, okay, we'll take me to an ATM or whatever. But yeah, it seems like you sort of took it in stride. Yeah. 00:39:09 Speaker 3: And I've been thinking about it this week. I hadn't had these thoughts in the last 25 years. Like, is the reason that he had cousins from Canton the reason he didn't hurt us? Because he did change. His whole demeanor changed when that got brought up. And then also, was there even a house or in that house? Were there just his friends that would have robbed us? Or, because he mentioned possibly having two guns, he wouldn't have just left us to ditch him at the house if this was real. Would he have made one of us go in there? 00:39:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, we interviewed Ellen. Her last name is escaping me at the moment, but we did that episode about a woman who was kidnapped. 00:39:47 Speaker 3: In Ohio. 00:39:48 Speaker 2: That was in Ohio? 00:39:49 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:39:50 Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness. 00:39:51 Speaker 3: She's the one who was blindfolded? Yes. Yeah, that was Ohio. 00:39:54 Speaker 2: In that story, she talks about how he started referring to her as, I think, Rachel. And she could tell that he cared about someone named Rachel. And so she's sort of like, just, okay, call me Rachel. Yeah. And that's a little bit like this cousin from Canton situation. It's like it struck some sort of chord with him where he was able to slow down a little bit. 00:40:14 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:40:14 Speaker 2: Gosh, it's like, one minute you're in your G.O. prison meeting Chipotle leftovers in the next. You're being kidnapped. 00:40:21 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:40:22 Speaker 2: At some point. 00:40:22 Speaker 3: And what would have happened if we would have gotten in an accident on the off-ramp? 00:40:26 Speaker 2: I mean, I think he would have just gotten out and been like, man, the damage to your car looks pretty bad. Can I have $ 80? Yeah, can I have $ 80? You're like, no, I just wrecked my car. Yeah, I mean, that's so scary. Someone getting up out of my backseat is like one of my fears. I actually had a Prius C for so long and I replaced it in the fall of 2024 with like a small SUV. And I love my small SUV, but every time I get into it, I'm like, I mean, I have my daughter usually, so I'm opening the back door first to put her in, but I'm like peeking into the trunk. 00:41:00 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. 00:41:02 Speaker 2: Like, this is so scary. 00:41:03 Speaker 3: Did you ever see the movie Fargo? 00:41:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. 00:41:06 Speaker 3: The shower curtain. I saw the movie when it came out, so I was like 12. I checked the shower curtain at any friend's house every time I ever went to the bathroom. Oh, yeah. 00:41:15 Speaker 2: Someone is absolutely going to be back there one of these times. Yeah, that doesn't just happen in the movie. Well, that's a very scary story. I mean, I'm glad you can tell it now without maybe having to relive it the way you would have felt like you were right after it happened. Totally. I think it's telling that you and Mickey didn't like immediately sort of run through what had just happened. It was like you both needed to sort of sit with it. 00:41:39 Speaker 3: On the drive home, I remember both of us laughing, not in a funny way, just like, I can't believe that happened. Did you tell your parents? I definitely called my mom from the car. I don't remember if it was in between the drive from getting robbed to going to the concert. I bet that's when it was. And she wasn't like, Tom, you need to come home. Yeah, that's probably what happened. It was either that or I called them after the concert. But at that point, they probably would have been in bed. But I do remember talking to her on the phone with me being in Cleveland. And yeah, her obviously being very affected by it. 00:42:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that would be even scarier, I'm sure, for a parent for that to have happened to their kid. 00:42:19 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:42:19 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Tom, for sharing that story with me. 00:42:22 Speaker 3: Of course. 00:42:23 Speaker 2: So actually, this whole conversation reminded you of a movie rec. 00:42:29 Speaker 3: Yeah. So when I came in today, I didn't have a recommendation. But you telling your story reminded me of a Spike Lee movie that came out last year starring Denzel Washington. It's called Highest to Lowest, two being the number two. And it's about a kidnapping gone wrong, a kidnapping that happens to a very wealthy man. They thought they were kidnapping his son, but they actually accidentally kidnap his son's friend. And there are a lot of parallels from your story about the partying and things like that with the kidnapping. And I really enjoyed it. 00:42:59 Speaker 2: I haven't seen that and I will have to watch it. I have a book recommendation, fiction, but I think that is something maybe a lot of you will really enjoy. I did. It's called The Responsible Party and it blends family lore and present day murder mystery. There's a woman named Claire who is a jobless beauty writer and she's canceled after giving bad skincare advice. And she had submitted this DNA kit, which comes back and basically sends her on this hunt to explaining her wild family history and having to investigate it. And I think that you guys will really like it. 00:43:38 Speaker 3: Nice. 00:43:39 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. We will be back next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com. Or you can follow us on Instagram at The Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at The Knife Podcast. This has been an Exactly Right production. Hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith. And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samorosi. 00:44:03 Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel. 00:44:05 Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. 00:44:08 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport. 00:44:10 Speaker 2: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac. 00:44:12 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.