Full Transcript for Fertility Scandal

It was kind of chaotic, if I remember, and just a lot going on, a lot, you know, men and women there together doing those procedures. 00:06:44 Speaker 2: And what is the first step of your treatment? 00:06:48 Speaker 3: Well, they basically put you on the hormones and the shots, and you get your whole regimen And you start those. They're basically trying to stimulate your ovaries to get as many eggs as possible. You go in about, I think it was about every day. They're checking you, making sure everything's going well. I had quite a reaction to the medications. All of a sudden, within a few days, I was swelling up huge. I gained like 20 pounds. And, you know, you've never been through it before. So I'm like, is this normal, not normal? 00:07:20 Speaker 2: Looking back, the symptoms Diane described are an indicator that she was experiencing something called ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome, which happens when a person responds too strongly to fertility drugs. A healthy 29-year-old woman the age Diane was at the time typically has between 10 and 15 follicles per cycle. Each one of those follicles contains an immature egg. In a natural cycle, one follicle releases one egg. But in an egg retrieval, the doctor attempts to remove each egg from each follicle, even in a mature egg, because each egg they can retrieve ups the chances that they'll be able to produce a viable embryo. 00:07:59 Speaker 3: And basically they hyperstimulated me and I went in for one of my final ultrasounds before they did the egg retrieval and they saw as many as 60 eggs. 00:08:11 Speaker 2: And do you do the retrieval on the same trip? 00:08:16 Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah, everything was done on the same trip. 00:08:18 Speaker 2: Do you recall how long that trip was? 00:08:20 Speaker 3: It was about a three-week process. 00:08:24 Speaker 2: And how did the retrieval end up going? 00:08:27 Speaker 3: Well, once I had seen the day before that I had all these eggs, I was thinking, wow, I'm going to get so many eggs. It's going to be incredible. We'll have a lot of chances. And, you know, it's so expensive. So it was like, well, this is good. I didn't feel real great. I remember my sister had to go and buy me some maternity clothes because I put on like probably 20 pounds in a few days. Like I said, I was all swollen and a mess. The egg retrieval went fine. We didn't get as many eggs as I was anticipating. And Dr. Ash, even at the time, turned to me. The night before, about midnight, you had to take a shot that's supposed to help the eggs release from the follicles. And he said, did you take your shot? And I'm like, well, of course I took my shot. That's all I'm here to do. And he goes, well, we weren't able to get as many as we thought. And I'm like, that's crazy. And, you know, it's almost like he was trying to blame me. And I'm like, no, I did it. Of course, you know, this is all we're focused on right now. Why wouldn't I take the shot? But at the time he said I had about 20, I think he said 22, 23 eggs, which still was a lot. 00:09:38 Speaker 2: And you had seen upwards of 60 on your ultrasounds. 00:09:42 Speaker 3: Yeah, the day before. So that was quite a few, less than I thought I'd get. Yeah. I was so bloated and so miserable. I even questioned if we should, once we had the embryos, if I should even do the putting the embryos back in because I was such a mess. And the procedure went smooth. I was fine. And, you know, no big issue there at all. It just went as planned. Just was surprised I didn't get as many eggs as I had thought I would. 00:10:13 Speaker 2: During her three-week stay in California, Diane had gone through follicle stimulation and egg retrieval and a multiple embryo transfer, where multiple embryos created in the fertility clinic with her eggs and her husband's sperm were transferred into her uterus. It was a grueling and uncomfortable process, and it was extraordinarily expensive. 00:10:33 Speaker 3: I think it was up to about, I think it was like $ 30, 000 to $ 40, 000. 00:10:38 Speaker 2: Oh, wow. 00:10:39 Speaker 3: To do it. We had to, like, take a second mortgage on the house to pay for it. Yeah, it was a lot. All the office visits and follow-ups and egg retrieval. So it was very expensive. 00:10:53 Speaker 2: I read every article I could find about UCI and Dr. Ricardo Ashe. And for reasons we'll get into, Diane Porter is named in those articles. They say she paid $ 40, 000. To put that into context, $ 40, 000 in 1991 would be equivalent to $ 98, 000 today. And so after your retrieval, you go home, you go back to Nebraska? 00:11:17 Speaker 3: Yes. Well, they had the embryos before I left, and they actually inserted five before I left. 00:11:24 Speaker 2: What did it feel like to be waiting to find out if you were pregnant? 00:11:30 Speaker 3: Oh. it's such a difficult time. I mean, you're so hopeful and you put so much into it mentally, physically, financially. So yes, it's a lot. And I just, you know, you're trying to be calm and be in the best state of mind and have it happen. And you're so hopeful, but you know, it's just so out of your hands, you know, you're just, you know, hoping and praying. And then you're just basically a waiting game to see if anything happened. 00:12:00 Speaker 2: Transferring five embryos would be unheard of today. I doubt you could find a doctor who would do it. But in the 1990s, things were different. In 1991, it was far more common to transfer fresh embryos versus frozen embryos. But Diane and Budge did freeze their remaining embryos, still hoping to use them in the future. Did you then take an at-home test? 00:12:23 Speaker 3: I went in to the doctor and had a pregnancy test done. And unfortunately, it did not work. We were unsuccessful. So it was tough. It's tough on a marriage. It's tough on everybody around you. And everybody was very supportive, of course, but it was very mentally exhausting. 00:12:44 Speaker 2: So when you had a pregnancy test done back in

Nebraska and learned that your embryo transfer was unsuccessful, did you then contact Dr. Ash and what did he say? 00:12:54 Speaker 3: Yes, they want to, you know, know if it's successful or not. So we contact him, let him know. Then they want to know if you want to come back and try it again, because we did have embryos still there. So we waited a little while and let me get to feeling better. And we wanted to stick with it. And, you know, we had the embryos there waiting, so frustrated. And, you know, financially, we had no insurance for it. So, you know, we had to kind of save up again to try it again. kind of thing and just not having much luck whatsoever with Dr. Ash. 00:13:32 Speaker 2: So how many transfers did you end up doing with Dr. 00:13:35 Speaker 3: Ash? I believe I did three. 00:13:38 Speaker 2: Three transfers. Wow. So flying to Southern California, flying home to Nebraska and waiting, flying back and doing it over again. 00:13:46 Speaker 3: Yeah. It was kind of like my job at the time. You know, you're just kind of focus on it so much. I mean, that's all we kind of thought about and we did. And it was, like I said, very long and stressful and expensive. 00:14:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. And with infertility, you know, if you share it with friends and family, it's like, yeah, it's amazing to have that support. But then you have people who are with good intentions waiting to hear if something was successful or not. And you have to field your own emotions and then also tell the people you love that it didn't work. 00:14:22 Speaker 3: Yes. Everybody's on this roller coaster with you of emotions and stress. And, you know, when you think about it, it's definitely a tough way to go. Yeah. 00:14:34 Speaker 2: Diane didn't know it yet, but almost nothing about what was going on at the Center for Reproductive Health was going how she thought it would, how anyone thought it would. 00:14:43 Speaker 3: Dr. 00:14:43 Speaker 2: Ricardo Ash certainly had his own way of doing things, but unfortunately for Diane and for others, it would be years before what Dr. Ash was really doing would come to light. And so after these embryo transfers were unsuccessful with Dr. Ash, we're still in the early 90s. What is your sort of next step, given that you and your husband still wanted to find a way to have a family? 00:15:15 Speaker 3: Well, we pretty much then decided to try it maybe in Nebraska and do treatments here. Not that we had any problem with Dr. Ash, but just flying back and forth and doing the treatments. So our remaining embryos we had sent back here, and we worked with those here with a doctor here. And that's when we finally had success and had my daughter, Claire. 00:15:40 Speaker 2: And how did it feel to finally get that positive pregnancy test? 00:15:45 Speaker 3: Oh, just the greatest feeling. 00:15:48 Speaker 2: Totally. 00:15:49 Speaker 3: You know, we were elated and relieved and like just so glad that we were finally done with this. And I had

easy pregnancy. Everything went well. And I never had morning sickness. I never had anything. I guess since we worked so hard, it was very nice to have it go so easily. 00:16:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing. 00:16:11 Speaker 3: Having our first child. 00:16:14 Speaker 2: Diane and Budge welcomed their daughter Claire in 1993. Their journey to parenthood had been emotional, expensive, and at times all-consuming. But now their baby girl was here, from a frozen embryo created at Dr. Ash's clinic. After Claire is born, are you even thinking about Dr. Ash or is he sort of like more in the back of your mind? 00:16:38 Speaker 3: No, he kind of totally in the back, you know, had no thoughts about him really anymore. We were, like I said, kind of on our way to having Claire, and we had done it here, we're at home. So no, Dr. Ash was not on the forefront of my mind anymore. Well, it really wasn't until the scandal broke. My sister... who lives in Southern California in Orange County, she called me and she said, did you hear about your fertility doctor? She goes, there's something going on with him. It's all over the news. And I'm like, well, what's it about? She said, well, he's being accused of stealing patients' eggs and producing embryos and children have been born because of this. And she goes, you haven't heard anything about it. I said, no, I haven't heard a thing. And I said, well, you know, He sees tons of patients, thousands of patients a year. I'm sure I'm not involved. And we kind of, you know, I said, well, you know, keep me posted if you hear any more and let me know. 00:17:41 Speaker 2: When Diane's sister called with the news about a scandal at UCI's fertility clinic, the Center for Reproductive Health, it was 1995. The Orange County Register had broken the story on May 19th. The very first line reads, The head of internationally acclaimed UCI Fertility Clinic harvested eggs from an Orange County woman without her consent and gave them to another patient who delivered a baby boy about nine months later. 00:18:05 Speaker 3: It was jarring. 00:18:07 Speaker 2: Still, Diane was reluctant to believe that she and her family could be involved. She was told that Dr. Ash had retrieved 20 eggs during her retrieval, and she'd wanted all of them because there was no way for she and her husband to conceive naturally. And each of her transfers were multiple embryo transfers. Still looking back, she'd been told they'd seen 60 eggs on her ultrasound. So why had she only gotten 20? How far was the scandal going to go? It wasn't long before Diane received another phone call. 00:18:37 Speaker 3: But yeah, after that phone call, it literally was the same day. I got a call and it was an investigator. I think it was an investigator from UCI. And they called and said that the records showed that I was involved, that eggs were taken, and they were very interested in the consent form that I'd filled out. And before they did anything, you had to fill out a consent form whether, you know, do you want all your eggs in embryos? Do you want them frozen? Do you want to donate them or have them destroyed or given to science? And, of course, you know, I had signed, you know, we wanted all the eggs we could. So, yeah, and we're trying to get pregnant. I'm not going to donate them. Right. And they said, do you remember signing this? I said, yes. You know, we did it before any procedure. I remember when my husband had to sign it, I signed it. And so they wanted to verify that, yes, these were taken without my consent. And they had a record of three being taken, for sure, that they knew were mine. 00:19:47 Speaker 2: What did it feel like to get that news that three of your eggs had been taken without your consent? 00:19:53 Speaker 3: Oh, it was very surreal. Yeah, very surreal. I mean, I couldn't believe that I was involved, that he, you know, would do such a thing. I mean, like, I remember when we were on Oprah, I said, if you can't trust your fertility doctor, who can you trust? 00:20:10 Speaker 2: Right. 00:20:11 Speaker 3: And so it was just shocking, you know, and just, I thought, I can't believe out of all the patients, why me? Why do you pick me? But once we got word about it, it's like our phone blew up then. I mean, everybody was calling and wanting interviews and, you know, just a total invasion of any privacy, I mean, whatsoever. Yeah. 00:20:34 Speaker 2: Did you at the time have any insight as to why your eggs were taken? Like, were they taken to be, you know, did the investigators say they were taken to be donated to other women? Did the investigators say they were donated to science or destroyed? Like, what did he say about where the eggs had gone? 00:20:53 Speaker 3: Well, I'm not sure if this investigator told us or who did, but ultimately Dr. Ash's next-door neighbor's wife told could not produce eggs. And so mine were taken with another woman, Debbie Challender, and an anonymous donor. 00:21:12 Speaker 2: Three whistleblowers from inside the clinic realized that Dr. Ash was misappropriating genetic material. A logbook kept at the clinic revealed that Diane's eggs had been inseminated with the sperm of a man who was not her husband, making them into embryos. And those embryos were given to the wife of the man whose sperm was used. The same couple received three additional embryos from a woman named Debbie and her husband, and then more from someone labeled as an anonymous donor. And neither Diane nor Debbie or this anonymous donor had ever consented or been made aware by doctors that their genetic material was being offered to someone else or likely sold. And the couple who received those misappropriated embryos, they had twins. 00:21:59 Speaker 3: So there were three of us involved. Of course, they only knew the two of us. And they knew that the eggs that then became embryos with the husband's sperm ended up producing boy-girl twins. 00:22:14 Speaker 2: What did it feel like to hear that?

00:22:17 Speaker 3: Well, just so helpless. Like, how could this be happening? You know, here you think you're at the best doctor in the world. 00:22:25 Speaker 2: That is a helpless feeling. Did you know at the time if it was... You know, since there were multiple eggs in the mix, like from you, from Debbie, from an anonymous donor, did you have any information as to whose eggs had resulted in twins? 00:22:44 Speaker 3: No, we had none. But, you know, it was still very shocking. I mean, to be embroiled in such a big scandal, because it just kept growing and growing. And then you found out it wasn't just twins. she and I, it ended up being, I think, 30 to 40 patients that were involved in the case. And then after I got interviewed by the investigator, then the Orange County Register reporter, Susan Kelleher, called and said she had the actual evidence of showing that they kept what they called an egg log. And it showed that my eggs were taken and given to this patient. So she had that. And she wanted, of course, to interview us and get our reaction to being involved and, you know, kind of tell us more about the case because it was, you know, unfolding every day. It was just getting bigger and bigger. So we asked her, like, could you send us what information you have about it and let us see, you know, she had my consent form where I said, did not want to donate. And she had this egg log that showed three of my eggs had gone to this woman. And so we said, could you mail it to us? So we had to wait, I think it was about a week before we got the actual documentation about it and could see clearly that my name was on this and that they were given to this woman and that she subsequently had twins. 00:24:17 Speaker 2: When you learned that she then subsequently had twins, what was running through your mind? 00:24:23 Speaker 3: Oh, just a million things. I mean, how could this happen to us? It wasn't even on our radar something like this could happen. I mean, it was kind of unprecedented. We were very upset. And then, of course, you really wanted to know more. You know, who are these people? How did this all come about? Is this something he was doing regularly, which we found out he was? Because back at that time, they needed a constant supply of donor eggs to per se, because you could freeze embryos, but you couldn't freeze eggs. They had to be used immediately. I see. So it made sense. What he was doing is, you know, he needed, he had all of us there. 00:25:07 Speaker 2: As details of the embryo theft and fraud unfolded, it was like a time lapse. Diane began replaying how her treatment had gone. Why had she been so heavily medicated and yet only retrieved 20 eggs when she'd been told there were 60 visible on an ultrasound only the day before? Why had patients been batched together instead of going in based on their own individual cycles? 00:25:31 Speaker 3: He subsequently over-drugged us, basically on purpose. to get more eggs out of us. And it was, I'll give them a few, but I'll take some for my own. And it was alleged that he was not only using them locally, but they were sending these all over the world. You had no idea where in the world your potential children could be. 00:25:58 Speaker 2: And this is all unfolding as local reporters are calling you and starting to cover the case. But then are you flashing back to when you thought you were going to get closer to 60 eggs and all of a sudden you only had 20? You're wondering, oh, well, maybe what happened to those other ones? 00:26:17 Speaker 3: And maybe, you know, once again, you're probably lied to because there was no reason they couldn't have gotten more. I obviously had a ton of eggs and we came away with quite a few, but not as many as, you know, when someone tells you you have over 60 eggs and you only end up with 20. That leaves a lot of eggs out there. 00:26:36 Speaker 2: Yeah. How did you then go about determining if these twins that this woman gave birth to were genetically yours? 00:26:44 Speaker 3: Well, that's one thing we were never able to find out. The couple that had the twins immediately lawyered up and then, you know, would not even entertain the idea of having them genetic tested. I'm not even sure these children to this day don't know if they know how they came about. 00:27:05 Speaker 2: Wait, so Diane, you never were able to find out if these were your kids or not to this day? 00:27:10 Speaker 3: No, no, to this day, nothing. 00:27:12 Speaker 2: Oh. My gosh. 00:27:13 Speaker 3: They threatened us. I know their name, but I'm not even allowed to say it because they said, you know, if you do anything, move towards these children at all or try to find out, we will fight you every step of the way. And these people had plenty of money and we did not. So we would have liked to pursue it. And I kept thinking, well, someday maybe we'll find out. It's not like at that time the twins would have been three, four years old, that we were going to take them away from the parents too. That was another concern when this all came about is how do you navigate if you do find out they're your kids, then what do you do? Right. Yeah. 00:27:53 Speaker 2: And the couple that received these eggs that were given to them or sold to them by Dr. Ricardo Ash, did they have any level of awareness that the people whose eggs they were using did not want them used that way? 00:28:07 Speaker 3: I don't think they did. I think they were told they were donor eggs. I can't imagine they were told anything different than us, that somebody donated them. And I think they were duped as well as us. I can't imagine they knew anything differently. 00:28:25 Speaker 2: Over the years, how often have you thought about those twins and wondered? 00:28:29 Speaker 3: Oh, all the time. You know, I've never forgotten it. I mean, You know, especially now that so much has come out with ancestry and people finding, you know, long lost kids. I always wonder if that's

possible. You never know. Someone could find you that way. Yeah. And all those other eggs that were taken, you know, what became of them? And did they produce any kids? There was never really much records of anything besides the three. eggs that were taken. So, but that possibility is always there to me that some child could, or now adult, could show up and say, hey, I'm your child, you know, I'm your kid. 00:29:13 Speaker 2: Do you have your information online? Your, like, DNA? 00:29:17 Speaker 3: No, I've never done it. Oh, really? I'm almost afraid to. 00:29:20 Speaker 2: Okay, I was gonna say, like, is part of you afraid? Because to me, I'm like, if you're wondering, there's one way to find out. 00:29:27 Speaker 3: Yes, true, true. I've never done it yet. I'm thinking about it, but I've not done it so far. So maybe someday. 00:29:41 Speaker 2: In May of 1995, the University of California at Irvine filed a lawsuit against its own doctors. 00:29:48 Speaker 3: Dr. 00:29:49 Speaker 2: Ricardo Ash, Dr. Jose Balsamita, and Dr. Sergio Stone. UCI alleged misconduct by the doctors, including unauthorized egg use, unauthorized human subject research, use of an unapproved drug, and interference with the investigation. UCI also sought damages for about $ 53, 000 in university equipment, saying it had been removed. The point of the lawsuit for UCI was to regain control of the records because they knew patient lawsuits were coming. The university filed a restraining order against the doctors, which was not granted, and separated itself from the fertility clinic. 00:30:28 Speaker 3: You know, at first we didn't know what to do. Of course, we wanted him punished. And the Challenders, Debbie and John Challender, had hired Theodore Wentworth, a lawyer. So we thought, well, we'll contact him and use him as our lawyer since we were kind of tied in the story together. Meanwhile, they were, like the FBI had raided his offices. They had the Senate meetings where, of course, they denied everything. So they did all that. Then we were just waiting for him to be arrested. We were interviewed several times. It got really tricky because you didn't know who, you know, our lawyer pretty much said, don't talk to anybody unless I say they're who you should talk to. So it was stressful and very nerve wracking. So we decided to, you know, sign up with a lawyer and have that protection of having a lawyer speak for us more than us having to talk to everybody. Susan Kelleher did come out to our house in Nebraska and interviewed us and did a story about us specifically. My husband did not really want to get involved in all the things that they wanted us to do. I mean, everybody was calling us, every talk show, every, you know, dateline, 2020. And my husband's, you know, it was such a private thing. I mean, it's not something you want to talk to everybody about. But I was like, we got to go after these doctors and get some kind of justice and stuff. So I kind of led the charge more

than my husband. Of course, we hired the lawyer and we did decide that we'd only do two things. We were on Oprah and we did a magazine article with Ladies Home Journal. And that's all we ever did. And, of course, the initial interview from Susan Kelleher. It kind of really was our only way of really getting any retribution for what they had done. And to go after them, you know, financially, we had a lawsuit against them and UC Irvine. Because it was later proven that UC Irvine was aware of this going on and they were looking the other way. And that the profits were so great, they didn't dare want to stop him. And then there was a huge cover-up, and then the three whistleblowers who brought this all to light. 00:32:57 Speaker 2: When it came to shining a light on what was going on at UCI's Center for Reproductive Health, there were four whistleblowers. Three of them were UCI administrators. Deborah Crail noticed strange financial arrangements between UCI and the doctors running the Center for Reproductive Health. She also noticed unauthorized use of one woman's eggs in another woman's IVF treatment and use of an unapproved fertility drug. Marilyn Killane and Carol Chatham helped document alleged misconduct and bring forward formal allegations. But as it turned out, years earlier in 1992, someone else had also been trying to blow the whistle, but nobody listened. Norbert Gilter, an operating room nurse, had witnessed the misappropriation of eggs and embryos. But when he brought his concerns to a UCI auditor, the man said, I'm an accountant, and I have no idea what to do with that. Norbert's concerns were dismissed. 00:33:54 Speaker 3: So basically, I guess it was multi-reasons, trying to punish the doctors, punish UCI, get the word out there that this stuff does go on. Unfortunately, really, the only thing you can do is sue for money, even though You know, if that's your child out there and it's with somebody else, millions wouldn't have been enough to satisfy us. 00:34:17 Speaker 2: Right. It's the only chance at accountability you have. 00:34:22 Speaker 3: Yes. And of course, they were denying everything. And the sad thing before we were able to get to that point of having a suit against them, the doctor was able to leave the country. 00:34:34 Speaker 2: In 1995, as the UCI fertility scandal intensified, Dr. Ricardo Ash fled the country from Mexico. He was facing growing allegations that patients' eggs and embryos had been used without proper consent, which he denied knowing about or participating in. U.S. authorities later indicted him on federal charges, but Ash remained abroad and fought extradition efforts for years. He continued practicing medicine in Mexico and then Argentina, and to this day has never returned to the United States to face trial on any of the UCI allegations. 00:35:08 Speaker 3: You know, people, I guess, still trusted him. I don't know how. But I know his life and lifestyle changed greatly because he was living a pretty nice life in Newport Beach, and he had houses everywhere and cars and racehorses. And so this was a very big money-making machine for him that he lost. 00:35:30 Speaker 2: And so as much as you can speak to sort of the terms of your settlement, I'm sure you can't give like amounts or whatnot, but how do you feel like your lawsuit panned out for you and your family? 00:35:41 Speaker 3: Well, I wasn't really happy about it. I was being kind of pulled in a lot of directions by my husband. He just wanted it kind of over. I was more like, I didn't want to mediate and go through mediation. I wanted to go to court, you know, hold them more accountable that way. So when they came up with the idea of mediation, my husband was all for it. He's just like, I want this out of our lives. We need to move on, you know. 00:36:11 Speaker 2: Well, and then the entire world knows that you've gone through fertility treatments, which is something that sometimes people speak about and sometimes they keep private. 00:36:20 Speaker 3: Right, exactly. And it is such a private matter. So I think my husband, he was very happy about the mediation. And our lawyer at the time, you know, he was like, if you don't do this, it's going to take 10. They can, you know, UCI is a big organization. They have lots of lawyers. You could be at this for 10 to 15 years if you don't settle now. And so my husband, all he had to hear was like, I don't want to spend I was kind of willing to do it. I wanted to do it. But I guess at the time, you know, you have to look at the long game and do you want to spend that much time fighting this? And they probably could have kept it, you know, going and going and going. 00:37:07 Speaker 2: And so your mediation was with the school, University of California at Irvine and not with Dr. Ricardo Ashe. 00:37:14 Speaker 3: No, he's gone. He's out of the picture. And basically, you're not touchable anymore. So then you're left with the university. And we did go through the mediation process with them. It was kind of like a panel of people. They interviewed you. You spoke of its effect on you, what you've been through. And then they sent a dollar amount. It was basically a sliding scale. 00:37:41 Speaker 2: It's like a sliding scale based on how they judge your level of trauma. 00:37:45 Speaker 3: Pretty much, yeah. 00:37:46 Speaker 2: So strange. 00:37:48 Speaker 3: It was very strange. And like I said, I was against doing it. So it was really hard. I don't know. I guess I'm a rebel without a cause. And I thought, well, that was taking the easy way out. So I wasn't real gung-ho about it. But of course, we did it. It was kind of then done. and we could move on with our lives as best possible, you know. 00:38:11 Speaker 2: The couple that gave birth to twins as a result of a batch of eggs that included yours, when did your conversations with that couple start and end? Do you remember? Was it before or after the lawsuit? 00:38:25 Speaker 3: It was before the

lawsuit, I believe. It was pretty soon on we found out who they were. It was kind of interesting. It was kind of a slip-up by... I think it was 2020, actually sent paperwork that they meant to send to them, but they sent to us that exposed their name. So that's how we found out about them. Yeah. Otherwise, we didn't know their name. But it was pretty clear right from the get-go that they were not going to cooperate. They did not want DNA testing. None of that. They wanted to keep it private to themselves. 00:39:02 Speaker 2: Did you speak with them directly? 00:39:05 Speaker 3: No, our lawyer talked to him. 00:39:08 Speaker 2: What was Debbie's reaction? 00:39:10 Speaker 3: Oh, I'll just never forget how heartbroken they were, especially her husband. He just, John was just a mess through the whole thing and so upset and so devastated by it all. And it was really hard on both of them. She and, uh, John suffered a lot. 00:39:33 Speaker 2: I can only imagine what that must feel like. And, you know, in your case, you went on to have twins of your own after having Claire. Were your twins also from embryos created at Dr. Ash's clinic? 00:39:47 Speaker 3: No, we went through a whole nother procedure. By then they were doing procedures in Omaha. So we were able to have them. The doctor was very careful how she handled me, did not over medicate me. And we came away with four embryos and had them put back in and I got twins. So we are very fortunate. 00:40:09 Speaker 2: With Claire, you know, since the embryo that resulted in Claire died, was created at Dr. Ash's clinic, did you ever have any concerns that he, like, cared to even give you your own embryo? 00:40:23 Speaker 3: Well, it crossed your mind, you know, when things were being juggled and thrown around, like, so easily there and misappropriate. Luckily, she looked a lot like me, or you would kind of wonder. 00:40:36 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:40:36 Speaker 3: Because really, all trust was lost by then. So we are fortunate that She does look a lot like me and my other daughter. So, but yeah, it had to cross her mind. You know, the trust was gone. 00:40:50 Speaker 2: Of course. 00:40:52 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:40:52 Speaker 2: And the couple that lived next door to Dr. Ash that had the twins, once you had their names, I mean, did you ever then, once social media started happening, ever try to see what the kids look like or? 00:41:07 Speaker 3: No, I never have. Wow. 00:41:09 Speaker 2: You have so much restraint. Excuse me. 00:41:13 Speaker 3: I know. It's definitely a Pandora's box. You know, you're open. It could open. I don't know. I guess I just put it in a little box and try to put it away. I can't say I don't think about it. 00:41:25 Speaker 2: I mean, Hannah and I interviewed... We've interviewed people about fertility fraud before. It's typically the story you hear is the fertility doctor using their own sperm. 00:41:35 Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. 00:41:36 Speaker 2: It's probably the most common one, which is also awful. 00:41:39 Speaker 3: Yes. Disgusting. 00:41:41 Speaker 2: But I had never heard of one like this where embryos and eggs were taken and really sold. I mean, he was making money without the consent of those women and those couples. 00:41:54 Speaker 3: Oh, lots of money. He definitely had a type he was looking for. In fact, I remember the FBI, when they interviewed me, said, is your hair ever been blonde? I'm like, no. And I guess the women he usually chose were blonde and blue-eyed, because people all picture a Gerber baby, you know, with the blonde hair, blue eyes. And they said, yeah, you're one of the few that were a brunette with dark eyes or brown eyes. And that he definitely seemed that the people they were finding were mostly blonde, blue-eyed. 00:42:30 Speaker 2: Jeez. That's so scary. 00:42:32 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:42:33 Speaker 2: And I'm sure it was complicated for that couple who had the twins as a result of embryos or eggs they later found out were stolen. 00:42:40 Speaker 3: Correct. 00:42:40 Speaker 2: But I also can't imagine not wanting to know. 00:42:44 Speaker 3: Yes. 00:42:45 Speaker 2: Genetically, those were your children. Although maybe they found out and then just kept it to themselves. We don't know. 00:42:51 Speaker 3: You know, they had done all this to have these twins and were keeping it from their loved ones, you know. 00:42:59 Speaker 2: What else did the FBI say to you? 00:43:01 Speaker 3: Well, just that the people that worked in the office said that literally people would come in with envelopes full of cash to pay for these. And there were people coming from all over the world, not just the United States, because he was so world-renowned that he would get patients from all over the place. And just the amount of money going through there and cash. And then some people paid him with, I remember for some reason they said like a Persian rugs and, you know, different things. It wasn't always money. It was actually items and jewelry and all kinds of different ways of paying him. 00:43:38 Speaker 2: What would you say like the biggest impact has been as a result of having your eggs stolen? 00:43:46 Speaker 3: Well, just the, It's such a violation. You know, you spend your life, you grow up, you date, you meet people, you decide who you want to have children with. It's such a big part of your life. And to have that just taken away from you, that anybody could have your kids, is just hellish. It was like, I cannot believe someone did this to me. One of the whistleblowers called it biomedical rape. And it basically was that. Everything was taken away from you without your consent. The trust was so broken. And just always having that nagging thing in the back of your head, like, do I really have kids out there? What did he do with all those eggs? And just trust in general of the medical field. I don't have it anymore. I question everything because that was taken away from me. and without my consent. So it just

changes you as a person. We had such a tough time getting through it, my husband and I, especially because we were at odds so much about what to do. He just wanted to go away and I wanted to fight the world. And if I could have gone to Mexico City and go capture him myself, I was willing to do that. I testified in front of the grand jury. I did everything I could to make UCI and as much as I could Dr. Ash suffer. But yeah, it was just, I guess, maybe just a loss of trust and, you know, just knowing how vulnerable you are in that situation and that someone would feed upon you and break that trust like he did. 00:45:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's understandable that you would feel that way. It is extremely violating. You know about, from this logbook, three eggs that were taken and given to this neighbor of the doctor, right? But there's probably a lot that we don't know. And you know that you had 20 eggs retrieved. Is that what you were told, 20 eggs retrieved? But that the day before you'd been told there were 60. 00:45:54 Speaker 3: Yes. 00:45:55 Speaker 2: Do you think that there's more that you don't know? Oh, sure. 00:45:59 Speaker 3: I think a lot more. It bothers me to think that Some of the eggs were donated, you know, to science and they were doing experiments on them and all that. It was hard enough just to do the procedures. And in vitro, I was born and raised Catholic. So it's not even looked upon real positively with the Catholic Church. So just think that they were giving away the eggs and God knows what we're done with all of them. was also another factor that was very disturbing to me, too. Because we were kind of going out on a limb with our religion to even do IVF. And then to see how they were just handing out, like, you know, nothing that didn't matter. And that experiments could have been done on them. And just that lack of knowing, or ever really knowing, what happened to all of them. 00:46:53 Speaker 2: Diane's children have always known that they were conceived with the help of IVF. They're all aware, also, of the fraud at UCI. And they wondered what it might be like for them to know that they could have other siblings out in the world. 00:47:06 Speaker 3: Yeah, they said, wouldn't it be weird, you know, when they talk about, like, if someone did show up here and say, hey, you're my mom. 00:47:13 Speaker 2: But none of you have put your information on, like, ancestry or anything like that? 00:47:18 Speaker 3: No, none of us. We thought about it. Then I thought, oh, do I want to open that Pandora's box, you know? 00:47:25 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's such a personal decision. 00:47:28 Speaker 3: Yes. 00:47:29 Speaker 2: You have to do what makes sense for you and for your family. 00:47:33 Speaker 3: Exactly. But yeah, it's always in the back of my mind. Like, should I? And then maybe, you know, I shouldn't. We go back and forth. Yeah. And so I haven't done it yet. 00:47:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no right or wrong. You just have to go with your... Go with your heart on that one. 00:47:49 Speaker 3: Sure. 00:47:55 Speaker 2: Thank you so much to Diane for trusting us with her story. Something that I wanted to touch on that Diane and I spoke a little bit but ended up getting cut from the interview was that Dr. Ricardo Ash was becoming extremely wealthy from... his work as a fertility doctor. So this isn't a situation where he got in over his head desperately trying to help people grow their families out of the goodness of his heart. You know, these procedures were a lot of money and people were misled on both sides. The people who didn't know that their genetic material was being given to other couples and those couples or just individuals receiving that genetic material, they didn't know that it was being given to them without the consent of the people whose genetic material it was. There were cases where the doctors took cash from patients and didn't report that income. The OC Register reported that at least 15 live births resulted from improper transfers. And, you know, you think about that and 15 live births, that's 15 babies out there that were born to couples who did not realize that that genetic material was never supposed to belong to them. And there are other cases from this same scandal where those parents have now come together and those kids have been introduced to their biological families. And, you know, talking to Diane and her sort of hesitancy to go down that road, I understand it, not on a personal level, but I made quite a few phone calls when I was trying to figure out who I could speak with about this story and actually spoke with a woman who I won't identify who is pretty convinced that she does have a biological child out there in the world. And she was very interested in speaking with me, but her only hang-up was that she really did not want it to expose her to that child in some way because it would be too painful. 00:49:54 Speaker 3: And. 00:49:56 Speaker 2: you know, you never really know how you're going to respond to a situation until you're in it. And so I can say that Diane's not alone in not putting her DNA online to find out because some people just don't want to. Because everyone handles these things differently and you have to do what makes sense for your whole family. I mean, Diane now has children of her own. So this is a fertility fraud unlike What we typically see in maybe more recent news headlines where it comes up that a fertility doctor is using his own sperm Hannah and I have reported on stories like that before. We once interviewed a woman named Eve Wiley about that, actually, on our last show. But yeah, I've never heard of one like this and hopefully never will again. And as fertility treatments become more popular and more accessible, hopefully they'll also continue to become more and more regulated and not just with rules and regulations, but with oversight to enforce that. Because I think history tells us it's really, really important. Anyway, so thank you again to Diane. Thank you, everyone, for listening, and we'll see you next week. If you have a story for us, we would love to hear it. Our email is thenife at exactlyrightmedia.com, or you can follow us on Instagram at The Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at The Knife Podcast. 00:51:15 Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production, hosted and produced by me, Hannah Smith. 00:51:20 Speaker 2: And me, Patia Eaton. Our producers are Tom Breifogel and Alexa Samorosi. 00:51:25 Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Breifogel. 00:51:27 Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. 00:51:29 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport. 00:51:32 Speaker 2: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac. 00:51:33 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.