Full Transcript for The Karol Markowicz Show: Inside China’s Organ Harvesting Horror: Jan Jekielek on “Killed to Order” & CCP Crimes

of lied about its transmissibility that opened up people's minds. But also there's a against all odds, I never really thought we'd never see one of these, but there's a survivor that basically came forth probably about three years ago now, and I never thought we'd ever see one because it's so easy to just kind of kill the person once you've taken organs, or in most cases, the person is killed through the organs being removed. So the fact that there's a survivor of it is astonishing, and that also created a bit more press, mostly in the UK unfortunately, but also that did shift the conversation a bit. So today most people I don't find a lot of people that say I don't believe. Most people say, oh my god, that's horrible. You know, what can I do? Or something like that. So there's been a shift in consciousness. 00:03:34 Speaker 1: It's so interesting. So how are we complicit? 00:03:38 Speaker 2: We trained some of the surgeons that do it. I mean, Carol, it might be worth it for me just to explain how this works and how it's different than your run of the mill. Also really horrible, you know, organ trafficking that we see in different parts of the world. So you need a state actor. It can only happen, and in this case that's the Chinese Communist Party. And the reason you need to stay actors. You need to be able to push massive coercive power through a population, and for two reasons. One is propaganda. Okay, So the CCP has been expert over decades, right in basically creating black classes, okay, And a black class is a group that the regime designates as a problem and then and been basically says these people are dangerous, or these people are lesser than you. It's a whole process of dehumanizing the group. And for instance, they wanted to seize all the land from the landowners, right, they said, landowners are the cause of all our problems. And then they that it actually activates a quirk in our psychology that allows us to at least allow for, or in some case even participate in doing really bad things to a group of people. So it started with the landowners, but that wasn't the last black class. There are all sorts of groups along the way. In nineteen eighty nine, it was the student movement, right, they've got quelled under the TMN Square massacre. And again they you know, they said, oh it was the the students attacked the military, right, you know, anyway, and so in nineteen ninety nine, i'll just kind of as part of the setup here, right, there was a group called Fellongong Fellongong Practitioners. It was a very very popular spiritual discipline in China. Truthfulness, compassion forbearans. This is what people are living when they do it. But it's not something like an organization like we would typically think of, Like there's no hierarchy in it. There's no sort of collection of funds, there's no roster like you don't join something. There's no worship, but there's a strong, deep spirituality and the people. And it grew to seventy to one hundred

million people doing it by word of mouth all across China, one in thirteen Chinese basically, and the regime decided, oh, this is bigger than than the Chinese Communist Party I remember, which no, no, exactly, and so the dictator at the time decided to wipe it out. He's had eradicated to use his kind of off the book's word. And when they put people into this this program of a black class, if you will, they put them in the re education camps and the prisons, all sorts of things to try to break them. It wasn't about killing everybody, by the way, not necessarily. It was about breaking them, having them renounce what they believe. But these people prove to be very resilient to this. And this is where the second condition to get killed to order, by the way, the name of my book is. That's why I'm calling it killed to order organ harvesting. They incarcerated a million, maybe two million people, a huge amount of people. Like two thousand and five, half of all the people in the massive Chinese incarceration system are Don Gong practitioners. Per the un special rappers are on torture. So massive, Okay. So now you have a very you have a dehumanized population that's in the system, and they're resilient to this brainwashing. So they make this rule that all Phalon goong deaths will be considered suicides in the system. Basically, it means you can work on these people as far as it takes to break them or if they die, well, too bad. 00:07:02 Speaker 3: Right. 00:07:02 Speaker 2: So a really particularly dehumanized group of people. Now, another important piece in an ethical transplant situation, there has to be a catastrophic accident someone let's say I need a heart, okay. Someone needs to actually have a car accident or a motorcycle accident. And the other part is they need to actually match us a little bit, because our bodies reject things that are foreign, including organs if they're too different. So they match around blood type and tissue type and size, okay, And the combination of all of that is rare. That's why people wait months or years in many cases exactly right. 00:07:39 Speaker 3: But in China. 00:07:40 Speaker 2: This is what one of the whistleblowers, you know, right around the time when I was starting to understand this was real, as basically hit over the head by the evidence. One of the whistleblowers head of the Israeli Transplant Association at one point as a professor of transplant surgery at to Levv University Heart transplant surgeon, he had a patient that told him and who had a really bad heart condition, I'm tired of waiting for my transplant. I'm going to China and I'm getting it done in two weeks scheduled. Okay, so now massive red flags. Right, number one scheduled that catastrophic accident is being arranged, right, so someone's being killed. And number two two weeks. How do you get that? Well, this is what they did. They blood typed and tissue type and organ scanned the people in this massive incarceration system, the Fello Goong

practice, and they created a database of all their vitals. So now when someone would come with their one hundred or two hundred grand for an organ, because this is the kind of money they would charge right to get it in two weeks, right, you already have a prisoner of conscience in prison pre matched, right, because there's so many of them, there's one that actually meets the criteria, and that person can be shipped and killed to order. And that's the reason my book is titled killed to Order. 00:08:53 Speaker 1: That is the creepiest thing I've ever heard. Is there a sense that I feel like America? And sometimes when they hear about what's going on in China, like a story like this, they almost like shake it off, like, oh, that's China, what are you going to do? That's just how it goes over There is this breaking through to Americans. How horrible and uniquely evil this is? 00:09:15 Speaker 2: Well, it is finally apparently right. And this is like against all odds, you know, on the New York Times and publishers weekly best seller lists. Right, so it is breaking through. But to answer your initial question is how are we complicit? We actually train some of these surgeons. Okay, we provide technologies, solutions, We have funding relationship with both hospitals and universities. We have all sorts of deep engagement with their transplant system, all the while knowing that two week transplants are possible. I mean, this is really not right yea. And as a very first step, we can say no on this issue. I'm not an isolationist. I'm not into like no communication or something like that on an issue where you know, something that almost certainly is a crime against humanity is happening. We're talking about sixty to ninety thousand transplants per year, by the way, Carol, So this is big scale right now, just a few organs, right, So we don't need to be part of that as at the very least, right. And so that's and but that's where the complicity is in the other part, right. And I actually have a whole chapter in my book about this, Right, it's about this complicity. The CCP is expert at making both its own population complicit in its crimes and us in other ways. Right. And this is when you have this deep relationship and you have it over you know this. This has been happening for twenty five odd years as far as we know, twenty twenty six at least, right, And so you know when the big transplant organizations like TTS, they didn't really do anything, didn't even make a statement about it for so long. Now you're saying all of a sudden, you're like, oh, yeah, this is happening. 00:10:52 Speaker 1: No. 00:10:52 Speaker 2: Generally, these big bureaucracies will try to kind of push it under the carpet. Otherwise it makes it seem like now they're complicit, right, So the complicity is created through having people not say anything for a while, and then now they kind of become part of the lie right right, part of the secret or something like that. There's many ways they

make us complicit, but that's one of them. 00:11:13 Speaker 1: Have you seen a shift from any of these organizations. Is there a chance that they're going to say anything? 00:11:19 Speaker 2: Well, there's a few that have. And for example, there's the i s h LT. That's the group that for International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation. So they have a statement of a few years ago that they will not take any papers from China for research in this in this field, I mean this is that that's a strong gutsy, say gutsy because no one else is willing to do it. Almost but there's a there's a few, right, but but that that would be an example of it. So it's starting to happen. But then there's groups like and I don't there's many transplant associations. That's simply an effective kind of runcover for it. And just sort of you know I and again you can imagine how they do it again, how this complicity works, Like this is what they'll tell you. The person on the Chinese side will be like, listen, we're I'm one of the reformers. 00:12:07 Speaker 3: You're a reformer. 00:12:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've had some problems with transplantation, but we're working on changing. Let's work together on this. There's those hardliners over there. They're really nasty. We don't want them to take the reins, right, I've got the rains right now. But if you raise a fuss, if you say anything, those hardliners, they're going to take control. And we wouldn't want. 00:12:24 Speaker 3: That, right. 00:12:25 Speaker 2: But really they're actually working in cahoots, of course, and with the intention of not changing anything. And this has just been a standard rinse and repeat method very works very well on well. I mean, they took advantage of our gullibility, but also to be fair of our greed, among other things. 00:12:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. Jean, did you always want to be an investigative journalist? 00:12:54 Speaker 2: I was an evolutionary biologist in a previous life, so I guess I was always liked investigating Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly know covid. Actually it really helped drink COVID because I could read papers a lot easier than the average person. 00:13:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing. What are you most proud of in your life? 00:13:14 Speaker 2: My god, you know I might be this, like, I don't know. I mean, just the issue is that we kind of worked on this with really not a lot of hope, if that makes sense, right, Like a lot of people at the beginning, people. 00:13:30 Speaker 3: Are just like, you're this is this is why do you hate? Why do you hate China? 00:13:34 Speaker 1: You know, the propaganda thinking this Not that I would say like why do you hate China? But if you had told me, like, hey, I'm planning to write a book about, you know, the organ harvesting that's going on in China, I would have been like, you're never going to get into there. You're never going to get in there and find out

what's really going on. They're so secretive, it's so it's such a wall. But you did it, so I guess you'd be proud. 00:13:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very hard, and you know there's a number so one of the things I do in the book, I'm not the hero researcher. By the way, I'll just tell that to be transparent with you about that, there's probably two handfuls of people that have put their entire lives after retwining. I mean, I've covered it for twenty five years on and off. But so there's people that you know. There's another guy named Ethan Gutman actually who just has a new book out. It's called the Shinjiang Procedure, which is looking at the question of how this is being done on Wiger Muslims in the Northwest. And by the way, I should mention this, Carol, this is a real tragedy because for fourteen or fifteen years they grew. This is starting in two thousand, it was low level pa thing. They grew massive hospital system, massive transplantation. Between two thousand and two thousand and five was the bulk of that big growth. And then you know, by the end of the two thousands, that's when you get to that sixty to ninety thousand transplant per year number. And it's kind of and and I think Ethan Gutman, actually he defended in front of Congress his number is sixty to one hundred thousand transplants per year. He explained how he got that number. You can actually look up the congressional testimony. But then there were one hundred and forty six hospitals I believe that had been built doing this kind of keeled to order. But that number is only increased and at the same since then. And they added the wigers. So when nobody really did anything over such a long time, right, they just said, oh, look it's okay. Apparently the world this never again thing in the genocide measure doesn't really mean anything, does it. So they added they dehumanized the weaker people. They added them as the next group. And now I'm actually concerned because I'm seeing dehumanizing rhetoric against Christians happening, and there's actually Christian you know, sort of right. 00:15:38 Speaker 1: It seems like that would be the natural next group. 00:15:41 Speaker 2: It does, And I don't know that that's for sure what's going to happen. I just do know that this dehumanize, this uptick and dehumanization, it always will happen when you're starting to work on a group of people, because you kind of have to convince the population that, at least in part, that it's okay to take these people horribly, right, Yeah, Yeah. 00:16:02 Speaker 1: I mean, totalitarian societies usually do that very very well. They are able to outherize groups quickly and pretty efficiently. So I can see China heading towards doing this to Christians fairly easily. 00:16:16 Speaker 3: It's a feat. And this is the key part. 00:16:18 Speaker 2: So you know, the subtitle of the book is killed to order, China's organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America's biggest adversary. And I hope I think it's pretty convincingly argue that what exactly that process that you're describing, that's a feature of the system, not above. 00:16:34 Speaker 3: That's just how it works. 00:16:35 Speaker 2: The atrocities that happen are actually a feature not above. They're kind of guaranteed given how the system actually works and how it prioritizes, for example, the survival of the party over basic human life. 00:16:49 Speaker 1: John, I ask all of my guests to give me a five year out prediction, and it could be about anything at all. Give us what you're thinking five years out from now. 00:16:58 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to put on my super optimist hat on that. Okay, Yeah, And five years down the road, the Chinese Communist Party has collapsed. Wow, the Chinese people, the long suffering you know, I always say that the biggest enemy of the Chinese Communist Party in their mind is the Chinese people themselves. They do them in a sense as with contempt and with a tool, as a tool for their own power. And you know, China is starting to become a major, real competitor, not a parasitic system like it is now, but like an actual major competitor. One stereotype of Chinese people is that they work their butts off, and it really is true. It's a cultural habit. You see it in Taiwan as well, which is a free society. And suddenly America, I feel like we've had it a little bit too good for too long, and I think they'll give us a run for their money. A true free society of China. Americans will be like, oh man, we better get our butts in gear because these guys are really taken off. 00:18:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very optimistic. A free China and an America encouraged to do better because of a competitor who you know, would be somebody worthy. I think that's a great place to. 00:18:13 Speaker 2: Be and I think and I talk about ways in which that could happen. Actually, and in the book too, a little bit So I. 00:18:20 Speaker 1: Love it, John, I love this conversation. I've always been a fan of yours. I think you're just fantastic. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives. 00:18:34 Speaker 3: Wow. 00:18:35 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, first of all, go to kiltoorder dot com and get the book. 00:18:39 Speaker 1: Easy call. 00:18:40 Speaker 2: No no, no, So but why will that improve your life? Because it is a dark subject. Okay, I think it will help you understand what we're really dealing with. And I think our biggest problem in a way has been we don't fully under We didn't really grasp the depths of darkness that this regime goes, how it thinks it's mind right, And I think that, like my key goal in this book is not even so much the organ industry, but actually this true nature and understanding it. So I think that'll better our lives massively if we can sort of face them just rationally and with full understanding. So that would be that would be one piece. But another piece I would say is, I mean, this is going to This is a little bit cliche, but it really is important. Ask yourself what is it that you're grateful for today and sit on that for a couple of minutes and think about it, and it just it's the most wonderful thing to do. 00:19:30 Speaker 3: Every day. I make a point of it. 00:19:32 Speaker 2: Because you realize that you have a lot more, especially when you're having those bad days when nothing's going rights. 00:19:38 Speaker 3: Wait a sec, my life's a bit better than I just thought. 00:19:40 Speaker 2: It gives you perspective, So that's what I would recommend John. 00:19:45 Speaker 1: I love that he is yan you click check him out at Epoch Times and buy his book Killed to Order anywhere you buy your books. Thank you so much. 00:19:53 Speaker 3: Yeh, thanks so much, Carol, It's been a thrill.