Full Transcript for The Einstein Conspiracy by Steve Israel

keep it propulsive. 00:04:22.394 --> 00:04:25.704 So I, um, uh, my approach was to learn everything I could. 00:04:25.704 --> 00:04:30.343 You know, when you're dealing with a real-life character, you have to have fidelity to that character. 00:04:30.403 --> 00:04:37.403 Uh, when you write- Mm-hmm fiction, you can create, uh, uh, figments of your imagination or features of your imagination. 00:04:37.663 --> 00:04:57.934 You can build characters with depth and complexity based on your own creativity, but when you're dealing with a real person, you have to be true to everything from mannerisms, thought processes, uh, dialect, and so I read everything I could about Albert Einstein and other real-life characters who surrounded him that, that summer. 00:04:58.274 --> 00:05:10.504 I once asked Erik Larson, uh, who I think is one of the best, uh, writers of- Ah historic non- So good I once asked him, uh, I moderated a conversation on his most recent book, Demon of Unrest, about Fort Sumter. 00:05:10.514 --> 00:05:10.543 Mm-hmm. 00:05:11.043 --> 00:05:22.434 And I said,"How do you avoid falling into that research rabbit hole, where you end up spending days trying to research and explore, uh, something?" And he, he gave me the greatest response. 00:05:22.434 --> 00:05:26.874 He said,"I just fall deeper." Uh, and- Ah isn't that great? 00:05:27.173 --> 00:05:31.163 So, uh, you know, I, I didn't wanna fall too deep because it, again, it's fiction. 00:05:31.163 --> 00:05:39.173 It's a propulsive spy thriller, but I love bringing in those, those real-life moments and people and historic anecdotes. 00:05:40.041 --> 00:05:49.622 Yeah, I, I, and that's what I mean, I think that re- you know, when you read, like, some sort of fun random fact about Al- Albert Einstein or their era, that's the stuff that readers love too. 00:05:49.632 --> 00:05:49.651 Yeah. 00:05:49.661 --> 00:05:50.922 Like, did that really happen? 00:05:50.922 --> 00:05:51.742 I didn't know that. 00:05:51.742 --> 00:05:53.021 You know, I, I love that. 00:05:53.122 --> 00:05:58.641 I, so that actually, one of my other questions was what was your character development process like? 00:05:58.641 --> 00:06:03.432 Because I've written biographical fiction and- Mm-hmm complete historical fiction. 00:06:03.512 --> 00:06:07.632 I find writing about a real person in history much more difficult. 00:06:07.632 --> 00:06:10.791 I think it's a blessing and a curse when it's a real person, even, you know. 00:06:10.791 --> 00:06:17.341 And so what was, what was your character development process like for Einstein and the other characters in this story? 00:06:17.922 --> 00:06:31.923 So Einstein, um, and I became best friends for the four years that I, I worked on this, uh, on this project, and I began by reading Walter Isaacson's kind of seminal biography, uh, about him uh, genius. 00:06:31.963 --> 00:06:32.673 Oh, yeah. 00:06:32.973 --> 00:06:38.153 Then I began reading as much as I could about Einstein by Einstein. 00:06:38.384 --> 00:06:45.744 So, uh, and this, that was tough because I, I really sucked in science and physics- as a dude growing up on Long Island. 00:06:46.144 --> 00:06:47.394 I read his speeches. 00:06:47.793 --> 00:06:48.824 So I, he... 00:06:48.963 --> 00:06:50.723 I didn't have to develop his character. 00:06:50.783 --> 00:06:52.884 He deve- he, he developed it for me. 00:06:52.894 --> 00:07:01.994 The trick was inserting that character into these moments of vulnerability where the Nazis- Mm-hmm were closing in on him a- as they did. 00:07:02.403 --> 00:07:06.913 And getting into his mind, particularly on the issue of how... 00:07:06.923 --> 00:07:14.923 what brought him to this moment where he was willing to renounce his life- lifelong pacifism to warn FDR. 00:07:15.293 --> 00:07:24.184 What I learned about him, which fascinated me, and I thought so f- fit into the story, was he was vulnerable and clever at the same time. 00:07:24.624 --> 00:07:27.194 So there wa- you know, he didn't care about his own security. 00:07:27.244 --> 00:07:37.803 Many, many true stories about how his wife, Elsa, would yell at him because he wasn't careful, uh, despite the fact that the Nazis had tried to kill him, uh, at least twice that we know of. 00:07:37.843 --> 00:07:41.603 There were probably other operations that failed, but we know of, of two. 00:07:42.014 --> 00:07:49.233 So he has this vulnerability, this kind of the caricature of Einstein walking barefoot, tying a rope around his pants. 00:07:49.713 --> 00:07:51.494 Uh, you know, the crazy hair. 00:07:51.884 --> 00:07:54.244 But he was also quite clever. 00:07:54.723 --> 00:08:03.673 He knew that caricature of himself, that image, was popular enough to give him, to put him on the front pages of The New York Times. 00:08:04.053 --> 00:08:04.584 Mm-hmm. 00:08:04.584 --> 00:08:17.153 To make him a true celebrity, and he used that celebrity to advocate on behalf of Jews in Germany, and ultimately, to get a letter to, to Roosevelt saying,"Build the bomb." Yeah. 00:08:17.233 --> 00:08:18.283 So remarkable. 00:08:18.553 --> 00:08:18.983 S- such a... 00:08:18.983 --> 00:08:19.334 yeah. 00:08:19.413 --> 00:08:22.843 I, like I said, I'm obsessed with this- Mm-hmm era and history. 00:08:22.843 --> 00:08:25.483 I wanna talk about the historical context now too. 00:08:25.824 --> 00:08:31.894 I was aware of the pro-Nazi rally in- Mm-hmm Madison Square Garden, um, in 1939, was it? 00:08:31.903 --> 00:08:32.313 It was... 00:08:32.484 --> 00:08:33.703 W- was that the year of- February. 00:08:34.114 --> 00:08:35.384 February of 1939. 00:08:35.384 --> 00:08:36.024 That's exactly right. 00:08:36.203 --> 00:08:37.764 Yeah, 20,000 people. 00:08:37.774 --> 00:08:37.793 Yeah. 00:08:37.833 --> 00:08:40.783 Um,'cause I wrote about it in my novel, The Goodnight From Paris. 00:08:40.803 --> 00:08:43.124 And- I loved Oh, thank you. 00:08:43.124 --> 00:08:43.254 Yeah. 00:08:43.254 --> 00:08:44.073 Thank you so much.

00:08:44.083 --> 00:08:44.104 Yeah. 00:08:44.374 --> 00:08:55.663 And I was, um, I was surprised reading about it at the time during the research at- Mm-hmm what a large pro-Nazi presence, including Charles Lindbergh, w- in America at that time period. 00:08:55.663 --> 00:09:02.293 And I'm wondering, like, are readers when they read this story surprised at how, at the- Yeah pro-Nazi movement in America at the time? 00:09:02.484 --> 00:09:07.203 I think that was the, the research that stunned and shocked me the most. 00:09:07.214 --> 00:09:07.234 Yeah. 00:09:07.244 --> 00:09:12.192 How normalized and open- the pro-Nazi movement was. 00:09:12.231 --> 00:09:21.192 Uh, you know, that rally at Madison Square Garden where the marquee that night, uh, said hockey game on Wednesday, pro-America rally tonight. 00:09:21.361 --> 00:09:23.091 And it wasn't a pro-America rally. 00:09:23.131 --> 00:09:32.961 It was a pro-Nazi rally where you had swastikas, as you know- Yes swastikas draped around the garden- Mm-hmm next to a banner of George Washington. 00:09:32.971 --> 00:09:39.322 And speakers calling for the, uh, just extraordinary deep hatred against Jews. 00:09:39.322 --> 00:09:45.812 They even, uh, in their speeches they criticized President Roosevelt calling him Roosevelt, as if he was Jewish. 00:09:46.131 --> 00:09:46.302 Yeah. 00:09:46.302 --> 00:09:51.961 So just the deep anti-Semitism normalized because it was at Madison Square Garden. 00:09:52.011 --> 00:10:01.052 And then the second thing I learned which just knocked my socks off was there was a Nazi camp, uh, operating on Long Island. 00:10:01.052 --> 00:10:02.511 Now I knew about this place. 00:10:02.572 --> 00:10:09.159 It's called, it was called German Gardens in a, a town called Yaphank And so I'd known about it. 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:13.340 I had known that this is where Nazi Americans trained. 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:21.970 Tens of thousands of people would converge on this place to practice goose step marching, uh, to call for the extermination of Jews in America. 00:10:22.110 --> 00:10:23.220 I knew all about that. 00:10:23.289 --> 00:10:35.080 I also knew that the streets in this community were named officially by the County of Suffolk, Adolf Hitler Street, Hermann Göring Street, Joseph Goebbels Street. 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:35.129 Oh, gosh. 00:10:35.129 --> 00:10:36.250 Could you believe that? 00:10:36.259 --> 00:10:36.279 No. 00:10:36.659 --> 00:10:39.720 That American flags flew next to swastika banners. 00:10:40.059 --> 00:10:43.769 But here's what I didn't know until I did the research, went down that rabbit hole. 00:10:44.600 --> 00:11:16.710 So normalized was this place that the Long Island Rail Road, a government entity, a government authority, decided that they could profit from it, and they ran special trains to Yaphank on weekends called the Camp Siegfried Special, where these people would dress up like Nazis, Brown Shirts, with their swastika lapel pins and their swastika banners, get on the Camp Siegfried Special, pay their tickets, go out to Yaphank, have a day of hatred, and then head back to Penn Station in New York City. 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.769 That was sanctioned, normalized by the government. 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:23.750 And so I try and bring that in a very significant way into the story. 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:28.750 Here's Albert Einstein fleeing the Nazis, comes to America where he believes he's safe. 00:11:29.190 --> 00:11:35.830 Little does he know that not very far away from where he lives is a community that names its streets after Adolf Hitler. 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.470 Yeah, I had never heard of that camp or those- Mm-hmm that community. 00:11:39.500 --> 00:11:40.899 That was unbelievable. 00:11:40.909 --> 00:11:40.929 Yeah. 00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:44.879 So I'm sure people m- must always be like,"Was that even true?" You know, when they're reading this. 00:11:44.889 --> 00:11:45.940 It's crazy. 00:11:45.990 --> 00:12:01.029 To your- Yeah to your point, the g- greatest feedback I've had on this book is when people say,"You know, I read this passage, and I, I just didn't think it could be true, so I Googled it, and I got goosebumps when I learned- Yeah it happened." Crazy. 00:12:01.070 --> 00:12:01.750 Crazy. 00:12:01.870 --> 00:12:10.220 I, uh, uh, also to the historical context, I want to read a part of a review from the Times of Israel and have you comment on it- Mm-hmm'cause I, I loved it. 00:12:10.309 --> 00:12:14.169 "The Einstein Conspiracy succeeds because it does what the best novels do. 00:12:14.629 --> 00:12:18.909 It enlarges our moral imagination while sharpening our moral clarity. 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:30.529 It reminds us that history is not safely behind us, that evil does not announce itself politely, and that defending a humane, rules-based society sometimes requires painful and difficult choices. 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.679 This is a novel with urgency, depth, and relevance." First of all, what a beautiful review. 00:12:35.929 --> 00:12:35.960 Yes. 00:12:36.029 --> 00:12:49.457 But talk about- the relevance, and I think, you know, I think a lot of us are looking at history and how history repeats itself, and we can talk about the theor- theory of, like- Mm-hmm the 80 to 100 year kind of- Mm-hmm things start over again. 00:12:49.477 --> 00:12:55.908 Um, talk about that and the relevance of this story in, in, in the late 1930s and nor- 1940s to today. 00:12:56.067 --> 00:12:57.587 It's such a great question, Jane. 00:12:57.618 --> 00:13:13.168 Um, what really propelled me in this book was not just writing a thriller that I hope people would buy, but letting people know that h- the hate that we see today, and I don't care whether it's on the left or the right- that that there's... 00:13:13.408 --> 00:13:17.018 it's not new and that it was even- Nope normalized. 00:13:17.067 --> 00:13:19.298 And I have to say, uh, you know, when I... 00:13:19.658 --> 00:13:23.197 with

all due respect to everybody's politics, this is not a partisan statement. 00:13:23.587 --> 00:13:43.217 When I see that hate expressed either on college campuses, uh, where people are saying,"Death to..." anybody, or- Mm-hmm when I see it on s- on T-shirts on January 6th at the Capitol where I used to work, T-shirts that said Camp Dachau or Camp Auschwitz, that's not very far away from what we saw in the 1930s. 00:13:43.227 --> 00:13:43.488 No. 00:13:43.857 --> 00:13:48.697 And so I did want to make those times relevant to the choices that we must make today. 00:13:49.498 --> 00:13:50.827 Yeah, no, it, it was, um... 00:13:50.837 --> 00:13:51.967 and that, that was, that... 00:13:52.028 --> 00:13:55.847 I felt like that review really framed it- Mm-hmm you know, in terms of what you were trying to do. 00:13:56.288 --> 00:13:59.898 I have some writing questions- Yes um, that I ask everybody. 00:14:00.158 --> 00:14:01.807 What is your process like? 00:14:01.807 --> 00:14:02.977 This is your third novel. 00:14:03.038 --> 00:14:03.388 Are you a plotter? 00:14:03.388 --> 00:14:04.197 Do you plot things out? 00:14:04.197 --> 00:14:06.738 Do you write by the seat of your pants? 00:14:06.758 --> 00:14:08.278 Is it somewhere in between? 00:14:08.908 --> 00:14:09.768 H- what's your process? 00:14:09.827 --> 00:14:14.697 So my first two books were political satires that I wrote while I was in Congress as therapy. 00:14:14.768 --> 00:14:19.868 And political satires, uh, I have to say are easier to write. 00:14:19.927 --> 00:14:21.087 It's tongue in cheek. 00:14:21.158 --> 00:14:23.658 It's kind of, it's moving briskly. 00:14:24.057 --> 00:14:29.817 You know, my Christopher Buckley, uh, was my kind of mentor- Mm in writing satire. 00:14:29.847 --> 00:14:30.707 Carl Hiaasen. 00:14:31.778 --> 00:14:35.398 Plot structure is not as complex as a spy thriller, as you well know. 00:14:35.878 --> 00:14:36.508 Uh- No. 00:14:37.408 --> 00:14:39.087 And so my process was... 00:14:39.087 --> 00:14:39.967 my satire's... 00:14:40.128 --> 00:14:56.898 literally I'd be sitting on the floor of the House or in a c- a committee hearing, and I would hear somebody say something totally absurd, and say to myself nobody would ever believe this if I told them, and nobody would care about it if I wrote it as a n- as a nonfiction. 00:14:56.898 --> 00:15:07.967 So I'll write it as satire, and this is how I'll tell people what really goes on in the doors behind the doors of the Capitol." This was different and so my writing process had to adjust to it. 00:15:08.028 --> 00:15:13.456 The first- Year and a half, I kind of blended writing. 00:15:13.456 --> 00:15:17.436 I wake up, uh, first thing in the morning, I'm curious about your own writing regimen. 00:15:17.836 --> 00:15:22.796 Mine w- is, and for some reason, my subconscious is still very active when I wake up. 00:15:22.796 --> 00:15:24.525 My imagination is firing. 00:15:24.905 --> 00:15:31.046 I have a greater tolerance for what seems to be implausible, uh- in the morning. 00:15:31.306 --> 00:15:32.605 And so I just write, write. 00:15:32.706 --> 00:15:38.416 Then I will spend as much time as I have during the day doing some fact-checking, doing some research. 00:15:38.416 --> 00:15:40.186 And so I would go back and forth. 00:15:40.186 --> 00:15:58.556 And finally, that process, um, 50/50 research and writing at the beginning, but as I did the research, I would realize, I'm sure you went through this as well, that something I wrote five chapters ago didn't make sense anymore because the research- I know. 00:15:58.806 --> 00:15:59.196 Yes right? 00:15:59.196 --> 00:16:01.696 Is, right, so I can see you're having your own PTSD right now. 00:16:01.696 --> 00:16:02.785 A little later. 00:16:02.785 --> 00:16:05.416 The research required that I go back, right? 00:16:05.426 --> 00:16:05.456 Mm-hmm. 00:16:05.456 --> 00:16:10.475 And, and look at something, and that changed the balance and changed the plot. 00:16:10.926 --> 00:16:13.056 So there was a lot of back and forth on that. 00:16:13.076 --> 00:16:20.475 And then finally, I'd say the final six months, I had an exceptional editor at a, uh, publishing, a company called Compass Rose. 00:16:20.905 --> 00:16:26.875 The final six months was responding to his notes to, you know, to keep the book propulsive. 00:16:27.186 --> 00:16:27.556 Mm-hmm. 00:16:27.556 --> 00:16:27.755 Mm-hmm. 00:16:27.755 --> 00:16:35.573 Well, I'll, I'll tell you, you know, my, uh, that Madison Square Garden incident that you wrote, it's, it's in the book Jane, I wrote 20 pages. 00:16:35.874 --> 00:16:39.953 I, I had it down to what they were serving at the kiosks- in Madison Square Garden. 00:16:39.953 --> 00:16:56.274 20 pages, and my editor his note was kind of reflects what I said before,"If you wanna write a book about the Madison Square Garden rally in February 1939, go for it, but you're not writing a book about that, so trim this from 20 pages down to four." Have you ever gone through that? 00:16:56.734 --> 00:16:57.203 Oh, yeah. 00:16:57.203 --> 00:17:02.313 I think that, like, as, as writers and researchers we're like,"But this is so interesting." Yeah. 00:17:02.313 --> 00:17:02.553 Uh, but, you know, and it... 00:17:02.553 --> 00:17:08.854 but it does- if it doesn't move the narrative forward- Exactly you know, that- that's when the editors are like, you can cut this down to a paragraph." Yeah. 00:17:08.864 --> 00:17:10.384 Like, it doesn't have to be... 00:17:10.413 --> 00:17:10.433 Yeah. 00:17:10.453 --> 00:17:10.983 And it's the most... 00:17:11.114 --> 00:17:13.763 Isn't it the most painful thing that you go through- It is, right? 00:17:13.913 --> 00:17:14.230 It's the cut part of it. 00:17:14.230 --> 00:17:15.023 Kill your darlings. 00:17:15.243 --> 00:17:15.683 I know. 00:17:15.794 --> 00:17:15.963 That's right. 00:17:15.963 --> 00:17:16.213 That's right. 00:17:17.534 --> 00:17:18.513 So true. 00:17:18.963 --> 00:17:22.544 And so I'm a- so

this is really your first historical fiction novel, then. 00:17:22.554 --> 00:17:22.574 Yeah. 00:17:22.834 --> 00:17:33.973 I'm always interested about, like, how did you balance historical fact versus weaving in the fiction to make it a thriller, and were there any kind of rules you adhered by? 00:17:33.983 --> 00:17:34.003 Yeah. 00:17:34.013 --> 00:17:34.913 How did you do that? 00:17:35.544 --> 00:17:38.814 So I, I have two, uh, I had two very good mo- uh, models. 00:17:38.864 --> 00:17:42.013 One was, uh, Forsyth's Day of the Jackal. 00:17:42.473 --> 00:17:42.864 Mm. 00:17:42.913 --> 00:17:47.794 Uh, about an attempted assassination of the French, uh, President, uh, de Gaulle. 00:17:47.794 --> 00:17:48.413 Mm-hmm. 00:17:48.874 --> 00:17:51.663 Which we know didn't happen, but, uh, he... 00:17:51.773 --> 00:18:04.294 I think structurally that's kind of the gold standard for making that balance between history, fidelity to history, not rewriting- Mm-hmm history, but keeping people on the edge of their seat at all times. 00:18:04.374 --> 00:18:04.604 Mm-hmm. 00:18:05.003 --> 00:18:07.134 And the other was Ken Follett's Eye of the Needle. 00:18:07.144 --> 00:18:07.163 Yeah. 00:18:07.534 --> 00:18:15.574 About a German agent who is trying to figure out whether the Allies are going to invade France and where, uh, where in France. 00:18:16.084 --> 00:18:24.923 Uh, also just filled with, uh, just gripping historic detail, but always moving, always- Mm-hmm moving propulsively. 00:18:24.923 --> 00:18:25.253 Yep. 00:18:25.874 --> 00:18:26.436 Keepin' it along. 00:18:26.436 --> 00:18:30.903 So I, I kind of studied that structure, uh- Mm-hmm and tried to weave that discipline into the book. 00:18:32.042 --> 00:18:32.803 I love Follett. 00:18:32.833 --> 00:18:36.853 I, he has a really great online course on, um, BBC Maestro that I took. 00:18:36.853 --> 00:18:36.962 Ah. 00:18:37.153 --> 00:18:37.895 Like, it's like- Did you? 00:18:37.895 --> 00:18:38.113 you know... 00:18:38.113 --> 00:18:42.593 Yeah, the- it's really good, and he se- Yeah he seems like a delightful guy, and he's so brilliant. 00:18:42.623 --> 00:18:42.653 Mm-hmm. 00:18:42.653 --> 00:18:44.772 And yeah, I found that really helpful. 00:18:45.103 --> 00:18:45.292 Mm-hmm. 00:18:45.373 --> 00:18:52.502 Um, so what part of the writing process do you find the most challenging, and what part do you enjoy the most? 00:18:53.063 --> 00:18:58.173 Well, I enjoy when my imagination can, just ends up splashing on a page. 00:18:58.242 --> 00:19:02.633 Uh- Mm-hmm I enjoy that creative pro- just the creativity, the creative process. 00:19:03.103 --> 00:19:19.732 The hard part is, uh, my, my own kind of struggle was, again balancing my love of history and these historic moments and oddities with my love of a reader- who's gonna wanna keep reading. 00:19:20.232 --> 00:19:20.603 Yes. 00:19:20.623 --> 00:19:22.863 Um, so that was, you know, very often a struggle. 00:19:22.863 --> 00:19:28.563 I'd come upon something extraordinary that Einstein did, or that the FBI was doing, or that Hoover, J. 00:19:28.563 --> 00:19:29.482 Edgar Hoover did. 00:19:29.522 --> 00:19:30.222 Oh, he was a good character too. 00:19:30.222 --> 00:19:30.232 And... 00:19:30.232 --> 00:19:33.032 Oh, isn't he? 00:19:33.143 --> 00:19:33.502 Isn't he? 00:19:33.563 --> 00:19:33.833 Oh. 00:19:34.173 --> 00:19:44.863 And, um, you know, I would have to just kind of throttle back, throttle back- Mm-hmm uh, give a flavor of the history, keep it authentic, but- Yes keep the pages turning. 00:19:45.502 --> 00:19:45.833 Yes. 00:19:45.833 --> 00:19:46.532 I, I always... 00:19:46.573 --> 00:19:47.623 I, you know, I was saying to... 00:19:47.663 --> 00:19:59.573 I was at a conference this weekend with a bunch of writer friends, and I feel like for every page that's in one of my books, there's, like, seven pages that didn't end up in there, you know, the- Right research and tidbits that you couldn't include, you know? 00:19:59.573 --> 00:20:01.042 But that's how you get it done, I guess. 00:20:01.042 --> 00:20:01.413 So. 00:20:01.432 --> 00:20:01.522 Yeah. 00:20:02.553 --> 00:20:10.603 Um, I wanna read this quote that I loved, um- Mm-hmm from, It was a New York Times essay that you wrote called Why a Book Tour Is More Brutal Than a Political Campaign. 00:20:11.333 --> 00:20:13.373 "Writing a book is deeply personal. 00:20:13.403 --> 00:20:15.383 Politicians put on protective gear. 00:20:15.583 --> 00:20:20.972 Fiction's writers take it off, fully exposing their creativity, emotions, fantasies. 00:20:21.323 --> 00:20:29.823 It's like unburdening oneself on a therapist's couch, only every reader on earth is your therapist." So talk about this difference. 00:20:29.833 --> 00:20:30.343 I loved it. 00:20:30.343 --> 00:20:33.692 I thought it was so funny- Thank you and s- and so, so painfully true. 00:20:34.542 --> 00:20:35.492 I think it went kind of viral. 00:20:35.542 --> 00:20:38.952 So look, 16 years in Congress, I was a town board member. 00:20:38.952 --> 00:20:40.633 I'd been through election after election. 00:20:40.633 --> 00:20:41.752 I represented New York. 00:20:41.762 --> 00:20:47.353 People are not shy about telling you how much you suck, uh- Oh, I'm sure in, in New York if you're, if you're a politician. 00:20:47.403 --> 00:20:51.222 They will just get right in your face, and it didn't bother me in the slightest. 00:20:51.222 --> 00:20:54.492 It didn't, because I knew, okay, their politics is different than mine. 00:20:54.492 --> 00:20:56.792 They're not happy about a vote that I cast. 00:20:56.792 --> 00:20:59.573 Maybe they had a fight with a spouse, and they're in a bad mood. 00:20:59.992 --> 00:21:01.143 Would roll off me. 00:21:01.653 --> 00:21:11.843 My second book, Big Guns, which is a satire of the influence of the gun lobby in Congress, I was invited to a book signing in in Sharon, Connecticut. 00:21:12.646 --> 00:21:23.717 There's an old library in, in sh- in Sharon,

Connecticut, and it was packed with authors at tables signing books, and I had this stack of Big Guns. 00:21:24.096 --> 00:21:29.307 And I was used to, as a member of Congress, I was in Congress at the time, I was used to people coming up to me. 00:21:29.307 --> 00:21:33.426 I was on television all the time, MSNBC, CNN, Fox. 00:21:33.487 --> 00:21:34.007 Mm-hmm. 00:21:34.027 --> 00:21:39.086 Wherever I went, I was used to people coming over and asking for a picture or shaking hands. 00:21:39.086 --> 00:21:41.987 But in this case, nobody was interested. 00:21:42.696 --> 00:21:46.356 And, and part of that was because there were, like, best-selling... 00:21:46.356 --> 00:21:48.866 Simon Winchester was ne- was on one side of me. 00:21:48.876 --> 00:21:48.906 Oh, yeah. 00:21:48.906 --> 00:21:48.916 Yeah. 00:21:48.916 --> 00:21:49.116 Right? 00:21:49.386 --> 00:21:50.886 Mm-hmm, yep. 00:21:51.666 --> 00:21:55.186 There were these best-selling historic authors, and I'd have this pile, and people... 00:21:55.277 --> 00:21:57.356 The, the title of the book was Big Guns. 00:21:57.997 --> 00:21:58.906 It was a satire. 00:21:59.446 --> 00:22:09.237 And people would come and pick up the book, and like a piece of spongy fruit- At some point, they'd like throw it back down, and it just, it wrecked my soul. 00:22:09.537 --> 00:22:09.991 It just wrecked me. 00:22:09.991 --> 00:22:10.666 It's so... 00:22:10.686 --> 00:22:11.217 I know. 00:22:11.217 --> 00:22:14.646 It's soul-crushing. 00:22:15.497 --> 00:22:15.557 You know? 00:22:15.557 --> 00:22:15.780 It's like- It's so humbling and soul-crushing. 00:22:15.780 --> 00:22:23.876 It's like- It's soul-crushing, and I'd be like,"Why?" So I began thinking,"Why do I take this personally?" But I didn't take personally somebody using the F word to me in front of my kids. 00:22:23.876 --> 00:22:31.317 You know, when I was- yeah and it's because, as you know, as any writer knows, there's nothing more personal than writing a book. 00:22:31.767 --> 00:22:32.166 Nope. 00:22:32.227 --> 00:22:32.747 It's, it's your... 00:22:32.757 --> 00:22:36.007 You're pouring forth your soul, your dreams, your imagination. 00:22:36.007 --> 00:22:36.416 Yes. 00:22:36.446 --> 00:22:40.547 And so you do take it more personally when somebody rejects it. 00:22:40.596 --> 00:22:47.406 I remember one guy coming up to that pile, and he goes,"Big Guns." He goes,"Will this help me kill bears?" I was like... 00:22:47.436 --> 00:22:51.186 I turned to my wife- Come on and said,"We're getting out of here." Yeah. 00:22:51.186 --> 00:22:51.237 It only takes two months. 00:22:51.237 --> 00:22:52.217 And we're out. 00:22:52.317 --> 00:22:54.916 Yeah, that's- Yeah. 00:22:54.916 --> 00:22:55.666 Oh my gosh. 00:22:55.696 --> 00:22:57.666 That's why I can't read bad reviews. 00:22:57.666 --> 00:23:02.156 Like, I c- you know, I'll read the positive ones, but my husband reads- I with you the bad ones for me. 00:23:02.156 --> 00:23:04.916 That's ri- And I bet he says,"Eh, it wasn't so bad," right? 00:23:04.926 --> 00:23:07.576 But- Yeah, right, right you get it, you take it as, like, a knife through your gut, right? 00:23:07.596 --> 00:23:10.076 Oh, it'll ruin my day- Yeah if I read a bad review. 00:23:10.086 --> 00:23:10.116 Yes. 00:23:10.126 --> 00:23:11.156 So I can't do it. 00:23:11.166 --> 00:23:11.186 Yeah. 00:23:11.317 --> 00:23:15.326 So you are currently a bookstore owner, which I love indie bookstores. 00:23:15.406 --> 00:23:15.696 Oh, thank you. 00:23:15.696 --> 00:23:23.037 Um, is there, like, any sales data or customer feedback or interactions that has shaped the way you write fiction? 00:23:24.394 --> 00:23:30.674 Very much so, and it was very, very helpful in this process and in the process of writing, um, The Einstein Conspiracy. 00:23:30.674 --> 00:23:35.115 My, my store, it's a small independent bookstore located in Oyster Bay, Long Island. 00:23:35.115 --> 00:23:36.505 It's called Theodore's Books. 00:23:36.765 --> 00:23:37.095 Why? 00:23:37.365 --> 00:23:38.075 Theodore's Books, that's right. 00:23:38.075 --> 00:23:40.865 Because Theodore Roosevelt lived up the block from us. 00:23:40.924 --> 00:23:44.634 Amazing and that's where he lived and died, and he wrote and read. 00:23:44.634 --> 00:23:47.785 There were 7,000 books on his shelves on the night he died. 00:23:48.575 --> 00:23:57.674 And so now I had a different perspective, and that perspective was not what do I wanna write, but what do my customers wanna read? 00:23:58.085 --> 00:24:04.055 So my mantra in politics when I was in Congress is you meet voters where they are and then tug them along. 00:24:04.095 --> 00:24:05.805 Don't preach to them what you think. 00:24:06.575 --> 00:24:07.825 Tap into how they feel. 00:24:07.835 --> 00:24:08.065 Mm-hmm. 00:24:08.164 --> 00:24:10.394 And then try to bring them along if possible. 00:24:11.265 --> 00:24:35.037 And I would, I talk to my customers all the time, and I see what they're reading, and I ask them, and that's what really helped me strengthen the discipline of writing, not just to express myself, but writing to meet the interest of readers who enjoy history, historic fiction, and spy thrillers Excellent. 00:24:35.037 --> 00:24:35.777 So interesting. 00:24:35.787 --> 00:24:41.606 So a- actually, that, that was a question I meant to ask you regarding the spy thriller for, like, structure. 00:24:41.916 --> 00:24:49.707 Did you think a lot ab- uh,'cause structure is something I'm kind of obsessed with now, and I wasn't in the beginning of my writing career, and I should have been, honestly. 00:24:49.957 --> 00:24:57.196 Like, did you think a lot about structure, uh, when you were mapping out the different perspectives and- Oh, boy and different short chapters and... 00:24:57.406 --> 00:25:00.666 Or was that something that kind of evolved with your process? 00:25:00.936 --> 00:25:04.057 So the first draft, no, uh, I wasn't thinking about structure. 00:25:04.057 --> 00:25:05.787 I'd

never written a spy thriller before. 00:25:06.896 --> 00:25:11.896 My editor asked me to study this technique called Save the Cat!. 00:25:11.906 --> 00:25:12.876 Do you know about Save the Cat!? 00:25:12.876 --> 00:25:12.946 Yes. 00:25:12.997 --> 00:25:13.467 Oh, I'm a big fan. 00:25:13.467 --> 00:25:13.477 Yeah. 00:25:13.477 --> 00:25:14.196 You're a big fan. 00:25:14.247 --> 00:25:14.446 Yeah. 00:25:15.656 --> 00:25:34.666 So my editor helped impose some structure and said,"Look, you know, you gotta have a certain number of beats, and in each beat- Mm-hmm you have to have a certain, certain content." I will confess that I found it a little, at times, and I'm curious about your response, a little too formulaic at times. 00:25:34.676 --> 00:25:34.717 Mm-hmm. 00:25:34.727 --> 00:25:36.497 A little too confining. 00:25:36.896 --> 00:25:50.676 And so I, I guess I adhered to a more relaxed version of Save the Cat! where the beats didn't dictate the story, but they did impose some guardrails for me, and kept me- Mm-hmm in the lane. 00:25:50.876 --> 00:25:56.356 Did you ever, in your own, uh, experience, did, did, did you- Yes rigidly adhere to Save the Cat!? 00:25:56.356 --> 00:25:56.817 I, so... 00:25:56.817 --> 00:25:57.217 I... 00:25:57.356 --> 00:25:58.227 That's funny you say that. 00:25:58.297 --> 00:25:59.166 I find the same thing. 00:25:59.186 --> 00:26:07.217 Like, I- Mm-hmm the Save the Cat! structures,'cause there's many, multiple structures that Save the Cat! offers in their- Mm-hmm in her book, Save the Cat! Writes a Novel. 00:26:07.557 --> 00:26:07.586 Yes. 00:26:07.606 --> 00:26:11.896 Um, I fi- it's so granular though, that it can zap your creativity. 00:26:11.906 --> 00:26:14.717 Like, if you're so worried about, like- Yeah getting all these little pieces in... 00:26:15.017 --> 00:26:20.737 So I kind of look at it as, like, tent poles, like, a th- it, it- Love it act one, act two, act three. 00:26:20.747 --> 00:26:20.797 Love it. 00:26:21.007 --> 00:26:23.426 Where I kind of have to aim to hit in the middle. 00:26:23.646 --> 00:26:27.307 So, you know, I think the m- middle is the hardest part for me, so, like, that... 00:26:27.336 --> 00:26:29.027 It helps me kinda map that out. 00:26:29.477 --> 00:26:29.497 Yeah. 00:26:29.497 --> 00:26:34.207 But you're right, I d- I also don't like to be confined by it because because that, you know, it's... 00:26:34.217 --> 00:26:35.946 it can really suck your creativity. 00:26:36.007 --> 00:26:36.396 Oops, sorry. 00:26:36.406 --> 00:26:36.426 Yeah. 00:26:36.616 --> 00:26:37.616 My thing froze. 00:26:37.666 --> 00:26:42.717 Yeah, so, so yeah, I, I, I completely understand what you're what you're talking about there, for sure. 00:26:42.886 --> 00:26:46.196 I remember it got so granular that, you know, I was told that by... 00:26:46.207 --> 00:26:51.416 I- in the first 5% of the book, which basically takes you to page eight, right? 00:26:51.807 --> 00:26:57.707 Right you gotta have two beats, one foreshadowing, and one a hint of vulnerability in your lead character. 00:26:57.717 --> 00:27:03.727 And- Yes, or like, and, or stating the theme, and I'm like- Yes"Oh, come on." Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:27:03.727 --> 00:27:07.487 It's like, uh, if it's adding more stress to the creative process, that's not good. 00:27:07.497 --> 00:27:07.527 Right. 00:27:07.537 --> 00:27:13.757 But I, I do find like kind of the, to hitting the major points along the way- You do helps me keep it structured. 00:27:13.757 --> 00:27:13.787 Yeah. 00:27:13.787 --> 00:27:14.027 Yeah. 00:27:14.027 --> 00:27:15.727 And I think readers want authenticity. 00:27:15.767 --> 00:27:18.382 I mean, a reader- Yes knows when something's formulaic and not. 00:27:18.382 --> 00:27:18.876 Um- Oh, yeah. 00:27:19.207 --> 00:27:19.906 And they'll tell you. 00:27:20.057 --> 00:27:21.317 And they'll tell you, that's right. 00:27:21.317 --> 00:27:21.336 Yeah. 00:27:21.346 --> 00:27:24.277 And they, they'll stop buying the books, uh- Yeah at my store. 00:27:24.277 --> 00:27:26.446 So I think I agree with you. 00:27:26.446 --> 00:27:38.186 Using it, I love that, using it, um, as kind of a tent pole- but not a rigid requirement of hitting- Mm-hmm every beat and every percentage of the book, et cetera, et cetera, is useful. 00:27:38.757 --> 00:27:39.086 Yeah. 00:27:39.156 --> 00:27:40.027 Yeah, exactly. 00:27:40.356 --> 00:27:46.957 So what advice do you have for someone who's always dreamed of writing a novel but has never taken the leap? 00:27:47.959 --> 00:27:49.308 Ooh, that's a good question. 00:27:49.308 --> 00:27:57.888 So the first bit of advice I would, uh, g- uh, have is make sure you have plenty of aspirin, and a bottle of wine as, as you're writing. 00:27:58.239 --> 00:28:03.979 No, um, look, I, the best advice I give, uh, I'm sure you give the, the b- the, the same advice, is just start writing. 00:28:04.028 --> 00:28:05.298 Just start writing. 00:28:05.749 --> 00:28:06.028 Yeah. 00:28:06.028 --> 00:28:08.038 Um, don't plan too much. 00:28:08.058 --> 00:28:08.578 Don't... 00:28:08.729 --> 00:28:10.898 You know, I, I never did an outline in my life. 00:28:11.249 --> 00:28:13.348 Never did an outline for any of my books. 00:28:14.058 --> 00:28:14.949 I have a Substack. 00:28:14.949 --> 00:28:16.409 I don't outline my essays. 00:28:16.409 --> 00:28:20.118 I write for The Atlantic and The Times, uh, elsewhere. 00:28:20.638 --> 00:28:25.628 Um, and my own experience is that you want your imagination to take the story. 00:28:25.638 --> 00:28:30.778 At a certain point you are going to need a sense of direction, and that's where an outline comes in. 00:28:31.048 --> 00:28:34.509 So I begin my outlines when I'm about halfway through the book. 00:28:34.909 --> 00:28:36.449 Um- Yeah not at the beginning. 00:28:36.929 --> 00:28:37.328 Mm-hmm. 00:28:37.328 --> 00:28:46.348 And, and so the more you, you worry about process and the beats and the outline and the structure, the less your imagination is

working. 00:28:46.638 --> 00:28:50.219 So err on- Yes initially, err on the side of your imagination. 00:28:50.219 --> 00:28:54.838 Let it fire, and you can always take care of everything else in your editing process. 00:28:55.368 --> 00:28:56.429 Yeah, I completely agree. 00:28:56.429 --> 00:29:02.358 Do you- And I also think j- j- the just start writing, it's like, just get out of your own way and give yourself permission to start writing. 00:29:02.358 --> 00:29:02.398 Don't worry. 00:29:02.398 --> 00:29:09.739 Like, don't worry about where it's going- Yeah or, like, the, getting,'cause if you don't sit down and actually butt in chair they always say- Mm-hmm like, you're never gonna do it. 00:29:09.749 --> 00:29:11.459 So- Yeah so it's true. 00:29:11.878 --> 00:29:15.338 Are you working on any new writing projects that you wanna share? 00:29:15.749 --> 00:29:20.138 Um, I have been asked about a sequel to Einstein. 00:29:20.138 --> 00:29:35.088 I've had this one character who's based on a real person an FBI agent who happened to be the second African American special agent of the FBI in the history of the Bureau, a real person, and people have become very intrigued by that character. 00:29:35.088 --> 00:29:36.999 His name is- Mm James Amos. 00:29:37.618 --> 00:29:41.459 Talking about research, I looked high and low for information about this guy. 00:29:41.499 --> 00:29:54.479 I knew that he was Theodore Roosevelt's bodyguard, and I ended up having to pay an inordinate amount of money to a rare book dealer in Australia who had the last surviving copy of James Amos' autobiography. 00:29:54.939 --> 00:29:55.769 I've been there. 00:29:55.798 --> 00:29:56.888 I've had to do that too. 00:29:56.898 --> 00:29:57.048 You... 00:29:57.048 --> 00:29:57.392 Right? 00:29:57.392 --> 00:29:57.734 Yeah. 00:29:57.734 --> 00:29:59.128 So, you know, I read that. 00:29:59.148 --> 00:30:04.979 And so people have said to me,"Boy, what a great sequel." I, I was at Vroman's Bookstore in California last month. 00:30:04.979 --> 00:30:10.676 I'm still- Great news for the book is I, I keep thinking the book tour is over, but we keep adding dates. 00:30:11.047 --> 00:30:11.356 Oh, that's great. 00:30:11.386 --> 00:30:21.196 Uh, and so I was out at Vroman's in Pasadena, which is an amazing bookstore, and a few people from some studios came and they said,"You know, we're interested in this James Amos character. 00:30:21.217 --> 00:30:36.217 We think there may be something." And they're looking at it, but you and I both know that a book adapted for any kind of, um, whether it's film or television limited series, it depends on how well the o- original book does. 00:30:36.217 --> 00:30:39.666 You can have the greatest idea- Yes the greatest character, but the book has to do well. 00:30:39.686 --> 00:30:51.757 Thankfully, we're- Mm-hmm overperforming right now, but we're not yet- Good at the point, book just came out in November, we're not at the point yet where I feel like it, the book has the legs necessary to get snapped up for an adaptation. 00:30:51.787 --> 00:31:00.457 Um, but I've already started, as I'm sure you do I've already started thinking and doing a little bit of writing on, uh, where a sequel would take us. 00:31:00.457 --> 00:31:12.176 Same kind of period, post-Einstein, uh, during World War II, Nazi spy rings operating in New York, and this African American FBI agent trying to track them down. 00:31:12.176 --> 00:31:13.416 So that would be the premise. 00:31:14.017 --> 00:31:14.436 Excellent. 00:31:14.446 --> 00:31:16.146 That's, like, right up my alley. 00:31:16.146 --> 00:31:17.866 I love those ki- Mm-hmm obviously. 00:31:17.866 --> 00:31:18.717 I love that era. 00:31:18.717 --> 00:31:19.457 I love that. 00:31:19.517 --> 00:31:19.636 Mm-hmm. 00:31:19.636 --> 00:31:20.537 So good luck with that. 00:31:20.547 --> 00:31:21.336 That's exciting. 00:31:21.346 --> 00:31:21.406 Thank you. 00:31:21.876 --> 00:31:23.817 Um, y- you mentioned your Substack. 00:31:23.817 --> 00:31:29.094 If you wanna give a sh- Yeah tell people how people can find your Substack or any other ways that you like to keep in touch with readers. 00:31:29.094 --> 00:31:32.946 Yeah, it's just, uh, it's, it's called Books and Politics, uh, Rep Steve Israel. 00:31:32.997 --> 00:31:36.317 You can also go to my website, uh, repsteveisrael.com. 00:31:36.846 --> 00:31:40.807 And, um, I'm doing lots of, lots of tours. 00:31:40.807 --> 00:31:43.356 I've gotta get up to your area at a p- certain point. 00:31:43.356 --> 00:31:45.277 I've been invited to do something in Boston. 00:31:45.826 --> 00:31:48.576 Uh, we just haven't been work- able to work it out on the schedule. 00:31:48.576 --> 00:32:08.292 I'm, I've just been invited to, um, do something on the book at the National Book Festival in Washington- Oh, amazing DC in August, which- Congratulations the greatest honor that, that I could have, so I'll be in DC then, and I'm in The Hamptons- Excellent in the Eastern Long Island in a few weeks, and You know, I, we, we talked about how grueling a tour can be. 00:32:08.343 --> 00:32:13.182 Other than the people who pick it up like a piece of frun- uh Right of fringe benefit, I love it. 00:32:13.232 --> 00:32:18.813 I love the, you know, the interaction and talking to people about their literary interests. 00:32:18.823 --> 00:32:21.123 And it gives me hope for the country, that there are still- Doesn't it? 00:32:21.123 --> 00:32:24.843 people interested in holding a book, not reading it on a device- Yes but holding a book. 00:32:25.442 --> 00:32:27.103 Yes, I completely agree. 00:32:27.103 --> 00:32:39.942 I, like I said, I was at the Santa Barbara Literary Festival this weekend with a bunch of friend, writer friends- Mm-hmm and, and we were all saying,"You know, I feel like we're might be sh- like h- there might be a trend towards like printed books, analog experiences again." Yeah. 00:32:39.952 --> 00:32:41.393 I feel like I'm, that's my hope. 00:32:41.403 --> 00:32:42.692 That's my hope for indie bookstores. 00:32:42.692 --> 00:32:43.942 It's my hope for authors. 00:32:43.962 --> 00:32:43.982 Yeah. 00:32:43.992 --> 00:32:49.323 You know, it feels like we're seeing a little bit of a turn that way, I think you're right, and we see it in our own store. 00:32:49.373 --> 00:32:53.452 Uh, you know, people come- Good and and they just wanna feel a book. 00:32:53.452 --> 00:32:58.472 I think there's a sensory overload occurring- Mm-hmm in people, and they just- Yes wanna feel it. 00:32:58.492 --> 00:33:04.073 They want their fingers to run across a page, and particularly history or historic fiction. 00:33:04.593 --> 00:33:11.032 I think particularly with America 250 as we s- as we commemorate our founding- Yes people may be more attuned to history. 00:33:11.472 --> 00:33:14.083 That doesn't mean they wanna read a biography of George Washington. 00:33:14.643 --> 00:33:24.853 They, you know, as, it, what's, w- what makes it accessible is the kind of writing that you do, that kind of historic fiction- Thank you that brings people into a story but educates them at the same time. 00:33:25.593 --> 00:33:25.992 Yeah. 00:33:26.053 --> 00:33:26.893 A- and you as well. 00:33:26.893 --> 00:33:27.903 Thank, yeah, thank you. 00:33:27.952 --> 00:33:29.603 That, yeah, it's, uh, it's encouraging. 00:33:29.613 --> 00:33:30.413 It's nice to see. 00:33:30.413 --> 00:33:30.482 Mm-hmm. 00:33:30.482 --> 00:33:31.153 It's nice to hear. 00:33:31.153 --> 00:33:37.252 I've,'cause I've been hearing good, some good things like, like what you just said, so- Mm-hmm fingers crossed for, for all of us, you know? 00:33:37.782 --> 00:33:37.833 We both... 00:33:37.833 --> 00:33:37.863 Yeah. 00:33:37.913 --> 00:33:39.113 So that's a wrap, Steve. 00:33:39.123 --> 00:33:39.913 This was lovely. 00:33:39.913 --> 00:33:41.823 It was so great- Thank you to finally meet you. 00:33:42.022 --> 00:33:44.113 Thank you for being a guest on Happy Hour. 00:33:44.143 --> 00:33:47.002 Again, the novel is The Einstein Conspiracy. 00:33:47.042 --> 00:33:49.472 It's available now wherever books are sold. 00:33:49.682 --> 00:33:51.923 My latest novel is The Women of Arlington Hall. 00:33:52.432 --> 00:33:56.762 Please remember to subscribe to my YouTube channel or follow me wherever you listen to podcasts. 00:33:56.772 --> 00:33:57.702 Thank you again. 00:33:57.913 --> 00:34:01.752 Congratulations, Steve, and I wish you so much luck with The Einstein Conspiracy. 00:34:01.833 --> 00:34:02.712 Thank you so much, Jane.