Full Transcript for Jamee Pineda: Decolonizing Medicine

lot of food medicine for myself and trying to like, starting to learn about that. 00:03:03.370 --> 00:03:11.620 Um, and because I like didn't have a lot of money at the time, what that looked like for me was like trying to grow a lot of my own food. 00:03:12.819 --> 00:03:32.740 Um, I'm not even, I'm not really like a green thumb at all, but it was definitely like, um, yeah, it was like a very basic need of like, I need to start growing my own food or I need to work at the co-op to get like, um, discounted or free so that I could like eat food. 00:03:32.741 --> 00:03:34.000 That was actually a nutritious. 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:34.330 Right. 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:34.680 Great. 00:03:35.819 --> 00:03:36.689 That's awesome. 00:03:37.830 --> 00:03:41.550 Um, and then how did you later become, uh, trained? 00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:44.879 I read the word on your website, but I know I'm going to butcher it. 00:03:44.939 --> 00:03:47.099 It's a Hilo and then it starts with a, B 00:03:47.789 --> 00:03:48.060 Yeah. 00:03:48.090 --> 00:03:49.319 He looked in a byline. 00:03:49.320 --> 00:04:01.469 So he looked is the name of, uh, ancestral medicine in the Philippines and the word being a byline, um, comes from the word by byline. 00:04:01.471 --> 00:04:09.210 So the byline is one of the terms used for, um, the ancient healing practitioners in the Philippines. 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:19.889 So the Philippines is very ethically, um, diverse and very language diverse, uh, the different tribes, there have different names for their healers. 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:32.160 And when we say being a byline, um, it means someone who works or someone who, who is on the path of, uh, adjacent to being above a byline. 00:04:32.670 --> 00:04:38.279 So I don't claim that title for myself because I don't live in that context anymore. 00:04:39.180 --> 00:04:40.829 Um, or I've never lived in that context. 00:04:40.831 --> 00:04:45.720 Like this is a very modern way to, for, to relate to the ancestral medicine. 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:54.509 Um, so even my teachers themselves don't claim the title bylaw because it's a very specific, um, cultural title. 00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:01.980 Um, some of the other titles are, um, Bachi or, uh,[inaudible], but it really depends on, on each specific, um, cultural lineage. So I came to that, well, let me back up a little bit saying that I had originally wanted to study that, but, um, I just didn't have access to learning it. So I couldn't find teachers, I didn't have money to go to the Philippines to learn, um, my ancestral medicine and, um, I didn't even know where to go, even if I had money at the time. So in some ways going kind of circuitous route through Chinese medicine helps me get there. Um, my ancestry is mostly the Galaga, but I also have some Shinola ancestry, so that's Chinese Pinoy or Chinese Filipino ancestry. So I felt okay. Learning that medicine. Um, and it's, that's been like an conversation for myself as well, cause I'm like,

not like my parents are from China. I'm not, um, from there directly. So it's, it's a, it's a thing to navigate, you know? Totally, 00:06:11.230 --> 00:06:11.649 Totally. 00:06:11.651 --> 00:06:13.569 I struggled with that too myself. 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:25.540 Um, can you talk a little bit about what he liked is like how, what it entails, how can it benefit folks and what do you love about it? 00:06:26.589 --> 00:06:33.610 So, Heela is really, it's like Chinese medicine in that it was a complete medicine. 00:06:34.779 --> 00:07:03.399 Um, so it treated people like with all, all kinds of disease and it's, I think even more holistic than, um, how Chinese medicine is practiced in the U S today, as in, when we look at causes of disease as being in addition to, to sometimes being physical or emotional, if we always, we also look at spiritual causes, we look at social causes, we look at environmental causes. 00:07:03.610 --> 00:07:18.730 So, um, for example, if you are, um, if you're having trouble with your relationships in life, that can make you sick like that, that conflict can make you sick. 00:07:19.899 --> 00:07:27.160 Um, and it could be, you know, like your work relationships or your a mantic relationships or friendships or whatever. 00:07:27.699 --> 00:07:33.189 Um, and that has an effect on your health and same thing with, um, when we're looking at environment. 00:07:33.189 --> 00:07:36.430 I mean, to me, that's like a very obvious link. 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:46.600 Um, I think especially with a lot of, um, communities that have a relationship with global south, where like, if our environment is sick, we get sick. 00:07:46.629 --> 00:07:52.120 If we don't have access to clean water, because our water sources are polluted, then obviously we get sick. 00:07:53.230 --> 00:08:00.920 Um, and in the, in Hilo it's, it's, um, also a very spiritual thing. 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:02.779 Like none of this stuff is actually separated. 00:08:02.870 --> 00:08:07.550 I'm talking about these in a compartmentalized way, just to make it a little bit simpler. 00:08:07.670 --> 00:08:08.540 Simpler is not the right word. 00:08:08.569 --> 00:08:11.660 Maybe like more compartmentalized and accessible. 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:20.779 Um, so pre colonization, like the spiritual practices in the Philippines are very connected to animism. 00:08:21.259 --> 00:08:27.259 So, um, our environment nature around us also has a spiritual aspect as well. 00:08:27.290 --> 00:08:28.220 They have sentience. 00:08:29.569 --> 00:08:35.960 Um, so when we were out of alignment with that, like, say, say like, let's go back to like polluted water. 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:43.100 So the polluted water is physically polluted, but also like the entity attached to it is, has been wronged. 00:08:43.129 --> 00:08:46.460 There's been a misalignment with that relationship. 00:08:46.490 --> 00:08:46.789 Right. 00:08:47.330 --> 00:09:03.330 And so it's about caring for all of all of those relationships and finding a balance, um, because we're, our health is not actually, like, there is not, there's not a real thing of just individual health because everything is connected to each other. 00:09:03.870 --> 00:09:14.100 So I, I love, um, there's a lot that I love about healing and well, I guess one of the things is the survivorship of it. 00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:25.519 Um, I've talked about this before, like I talked about it on a different podcast, but just going to give like a really quick content warning about like, um, colonial violence. 00:09:27.139 --> 00:09:41.870 So, um, when the Spanish came to the Philippines, they, um, basically tried, they like tried to murder all of the byline, all of the like healing practitioners. 00:09:42.830 --> 00:09:46.429 So our healing practitioners were not only, um, healers. 00:09:46.460 --> 00:09:59.809 They were also, um, they had a very multifaceted role that included being leaders in the community, being educators, uh, being spiritual leaders, um, and being warriors as well. 00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:03.590 So they were instrumental in like resistance against the Spanish. 00:10:03.889 --> 00:10:11.840 So of course, once you get rid of them, um, so they tried to suppress those practices. 00:10:11.870 --> 00:10:24.350 They tried to kill them off, um, even to the point where, um, they like chopped up their bodies when they murdered them, because they were, they feared their power so much. 00:10:24.350 --> 00:10:26.120 They didn't want them to resurrect themselves. 00:10:26.779 --> 00:10:29.179 And so their bodies were chopped up and fed to the crocodiles. 00:10:30.049 --> 00:10:30.980 Oh my gosh. 00:10:31.129 --> 00:10:56.299 So what we see here is like a complete disruption of healthcare and spiritual practices and culture and language, and also, um, a disruption of how people related to gender and sexuality, because a lot of these healers were also people identify in the community as, um, folks who can kind of walk between worlds. 00:10:57.350 --> 00:11:09.409 So from a modern perspective and using a modern, um, like Western lexicon, they might have been identified as non-binary or trans or gender expansive. 00:11:09.410 --> 00:11:15.620 Like, I can't really put those words on that, on, on their folks, because like, I don't actually know. 00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:25.580 And the, the, the cultural context and the language is different, but they were people who did not conform to European ID ideas of gender binary. 00:11:26.629 --> 00:11:31.549 So that was, you know, like very threatening to the colonizers. 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:46.759 Um, so the way that the medicine did end up surviving, because obviously it was dangerous to practice it in the open was people practice, state in secrets where they practice date, um, synchrotized with Catholicism. 00:11:47.570 --> 00:11:50.990 And I know that this is not something that is unique to the Philippines. 00:11:50.990 --> 00:11:54.580 It's, it's like a

thing that has happened to a lot of indigenous medicine. 00:11:55.179 --> 00:12:10.929 Um, and I, I just, I have like, come to appreciate like how that medicine has survived and is like coming back to us, like it never actually left, even if it doesn't look exactly like it did before. 00:12:11.470 --> 00:12:12.730 Like it's still here. 00:12:12.970 --> 00:12:20.350 I personally believe like that the medicine itself like that body of knowledge has its own sentience and its own survival. 00:12:21.450 --> 00:12:22.139 Oh my gosh. 00:12:22.169 --> 00:12:23.460 I love that. 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:24.690 Yeah. 00:12:24.779 --> 00:12:26.190 That makes total sense to me. 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:32.220 I feel like too, that it does live on in your blood, like in your DNA. 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:34.379 I think that you have access to that. 00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:35.220 Yeah. 00:12:35.669 --> 00:12:43.409 And so much of the medicine is very based on, um, ancestral were ancestor work. 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.889 So an ancestral veneration is a big part of the culture. 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:55.080 So like they, I mean, not all of our ancestors want it to be beneficial for that for us. 00:12:55.139 --> 00:13:03.870 I will say that, but there are ancestors out there who are rooting for us and who do like, like want us to have whatever we need in life. 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:10.500 Um, and those ancestors where they, we know their names or how to call out to them, they're there. 00:13:11.549 --> 00:13:11.970 Right. 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:12.600 You know? 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.820 And I think that that's really 00:13:15.149 --> 00:13:15.539 Cool. 00:13:16.250 --> 00:13:19.279 Yeah, totally, totally. 00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:23.269 I've been feeling that more and more in the last few years, for sure. 00:13:24.019 --> 00:13:24.350 Yeah. 00:13:24.379 --> 00:13:25.039 I love that. 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:42.830 Um, and Chinese medicine, as you know, our fertility is referred to as our essence or kidney essence, um, the more we're able to get in touch with who we really are, or our essence, the more access we have to our fertile potential and creative power. 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:51.769 Uh, this is what I teach in my whole self fertility method, which embodies this idea of bringing our whole selves to the fertility journey, not just one part. 00:13:52.909 --> 00:14:06.139 Um, and I really believe that connecting with and honoring our ancestry and decolonizing everything, literally everything, uh, plays a huge role in getting in touch with our essence and our whole selves. 00:14:07.090 --> 00:14:12.230 Um, and I know this is one of your main focuses is decolonizing medicine through food. 00:14:13.460 --> 00:14:14.779 Um, can you talk a little bit about that? 00:14:14.780 --> 00:14:16.129 Like, what does that mean to you? 00:14:16.779 --> 00:14:18.919 Um, and what are some ways that you're actively doing that? 00:14:20.019 --> 00:14:24.700 And decolonizing food is such, it's such a huge topic. 00:14:26.110 --> 00:14:39.639 Um, and I, I love talking about it and I love practicing it and there's not, I mean, to say there's not one way to practice it because D calling it D because colonization hasn't affected each of us the same way. 00:14:41.350 --> 00:14:47.049 Um, so I'm going to speak, yeah, I'm going to speak from my own, um, experience with it. 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:52.340 And I just want folks listening to know that, that, that my experience isn't a monolith. 00:14:52.639 --> 00:15:03.379 So the way that I approach food and maybe this is because I'm Philippine X, is that it's, the food itself is very, very sacred. 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:08.179 And it, it has a lot of correspondences for me. 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:17.539 So, um, when I'm working with food, even like in a super casual way, like I'm not like doing a huge ceremony or anything, like I'm just making breakfast. 00:15:18.049 --> 00:15:22.429 Like my plate is still an altar and wish I placed the food. 00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:25.129 My body has an altar where the food goes. 00:15:25.669 --> 00:15:36.559 Um, uh, the way that my teacher taught, taught me, um, uh, fluid man and the Hillel academy had been a byline. 00:15:38.419 --> 00:15:44.299 He, um, talks about how our bodies are an extension of our ancestors. 00:15:45.019 --> 00:15:52.580 And so even though they don't have corporeal form now, like feeding our feeding ourselves as a way to feed our ancestors. 00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:02.960 So it's like, it can transmit through with it, like the physical transmits into the more spiritual, um, those things are not separate. 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:08.389 So, you know, we can talk about that as food, you can talk about it as other ways of caring for yourself. 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:16.070 Um, and I, I just find that really beautiful because a lot of our ancestors are traumatized right. 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:18.950 For a lot of reasons. 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:25.929 Um, many of us live with, with generational, like experiences of generational violence, right? 00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:34.779 So it's, that's so interesting to think about having that opportunity to reach backwards and nourish those who are already gone. 00:16:34.870 --> 00:16:35.320 Yeah. 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:42.490 I think that medicine, um, and social connection and all that stuff is not linear and it's not static. 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:44.769 It's very dynamic. 00:16:45.190 --> 00:17:11.740 So, um, I was thinking about this question earlier, and one of the things that has, um, kind of kept me on track with the practice of just thinking about decolonizing, my food is my living a lifestyle where I can actually cook, you know, like, do you have time to actually sit and cook a meal and pay attention to what you're doing? 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.440 And like, have a process with that. 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:21.069 And if you don't like, I don't, I don't think that's wrong, but I think

that's a symptom of capitalism. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.369 So it's, it's more than individual choice. 00:17:24.371 --> 00:17:30.759 Like a lot of us don't really have the choice to sit and, and like cook a meal and enjoy it. 00:17:31.930 --> 00:17:35.589 Um, and like really put nutrition and intention into it. 00:17:36.339 --> 00:17:50.759 So, so that's a check for me to see, like, okay, like how is capitalism impacting my ability to actually take care of myself and have this meal because capitalism is part of colonization. 00:17:51.420 --> 00:17:52.019 Totally. 00:17:53.099 --> 00:18:04.950 And so, um, when I, like I'm thinking about that, then I can pause and see if there are places where I have agency to change that sometimes they do. 00:18:04.951 --> 00:18:05.910 And sometimes they don't. 00:18:07.700 --> 00:18:26.539 And if I don't, what other ways can I do that practice where I am still honoring ancestors that are mine or ancestors of places where, um, I'm living ancestors of people who in relationship to me, um, might have less privilege. 00:18:27.829 --> 00:18:36.289 So if I, if I can't cook for myself, can I at least like patronize a business that is owned by BiPAP? 00:18:38.450 --> 00:18:46.400 Um, can I at least like buy food that is locally grown if possible, um, by people who are actually stewards of the land. 00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:57.470 So it's not, there's no like hard and fast way to practice decolonization because it really depends on a person's context. 00:18:57.529 --> 00:19:06.619 And even that changes every day and even that is not solely dependent on just what's happening in that individual's sphere. 00:19:06.710 --> 00:19:06.980 Right? 00:19:06.980 --> 00:19:10.009 Like it's connected to much bigger structures. 00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:11.410 Right. 00:19:12.579 --> 00:19:13.390 Uh, I love that. 00:19:13.391 --> 00:19:17.950 That makes so much sense that everyone is, is colonized differently. 00:19:18.700 --> 00:19:20.470 And it depends on where you are. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.329 Depends on your own heritage. 00:19:22.809 --> 00:19:23.230 Yeah. 00:19:23.950 --> 00:19:25.000 That makes a lot of sense. 00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:26.740 Um, yeah. 00:19:26.740 --> 00:19:41.170 I was going to ask if you had any tips for us to start decolonizing our food now, and I think those are great tips to think about how capitalism is affecting our ability to nourish ourselves and our ancestors. 00:19:41.171 --> 00:19:42.759 And like you said, others ancestors, 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:53.500 One thing I've suggested to folks who have asked me similar questions is, um, just look, look at your food. 00:19:54.279 --> 00:20:08.200 So if you are like someone, I used this, I don't know why I liked using this example, but you are that person who gets that pumpkin spice latte, you know, when autumn rolls around, you're buying at a Starbucks or whatever. 00:20:08.740 --> 00:20:12.279 Um, no shade to that, but like, think about what goes into that.

00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:21.009 You've got like cinema and you've got cardimon, um, maybe clothes like, and that if maybe there's like actual, real pumpkin in it, I don't know. 00:20:21.789 --> 00:20:28.299 Um, but like coffee, all of these things are things that are not European. 00:20:29.980 --> 00:20:31.630 They're not from white cultures. 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:32.980 Right? 00:20:33.309 --> 00:20:47.650 Like they're just not and think about how that ingredient got to where you are and you can start tracing those stories because our, I mean, I, I like am animus. 00:20:47.651 --> 00:20:52.539 So I think these things are also, this has like good has energy. 00:20:53.049 --> 00:20:55.450 Food has personality and spirituality. 00:20:55.451 --> 00:20:58.089 And, um, like it has the own essence. 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:05.200 So, you know, like most of the spices in a pumpkin spice latte are from Southeast Asia, from like Indonesia. 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.309 How did that get, how did that get to you? 00:21:10.990 --> 00:21:11.950 Was it trade? 00:21:12.099 --> 00:21:14.769 Was there like, like a fair exchange for it? 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:19.750 Um, was there a history of exploitation and extraction to get that? 00:21:20.410 --> 00:21:23.079 Did it go to Europe first and then come to you? 00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:35.619 And it's this isn't to like shame people for their food choices, but it is to understand like how things got to us and what our relationship is, and then you have this information. 00:21:35.621 --> 00:21:36.970 So, so what are you going to do? 00:21:37.630 --> 00:21:43.089 Like, how can you, you can't like drink or uneasy things that you eat? 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:54.279 I mean, I guess you could, you could like vomit, but like, we can't like just magically and colonize our relationships to things because colonization happened. 00:21:54.579 --> 00:21:55.329 It is happening. 00:21:56.980 --> 00:22:04.029 You can't, it's not like a politic of a purity of where you can just take out the good part and like leave the colonization. 00:22:04.030 --> 00:22:09.940 Like we have to, um, move in a way that is in relationship to that already happening. 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:13.509 And then how do we repair what has happened? 00:22:13.510 --> 00:22:21.869 How do we build things that are, um, outside of that, but understand that that is still here, right? 00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:22.710 Yeah. 00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:30.119 Cause we're so disconnected from how food gets to us or just, we're so disconnected from that whole process in general. 00:22:30.121 --> 00:22:32.309 So that, that seems like a good first step. 00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:43.380 And, you know, like if you have had like Chinese medicine training, like we're always talking about root cause, so yeah. 00:22:43.829 --> 00:22:50.099 Um, so apply that to your food, apply that to your food, apply it to how you're relating to your patients. 00:22:51.299 --> 00:23:09.599 Um, I remember when I was in school, I worked with a patient who was having a lot of, a lot of like a lot of health problems and, um, was coming in like every week to get treatments and trying to take herbs with me. 00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:15.240 Um, and then at one point I like stopped and I was like, wait a minute, what are you eating? 00:23:16.529 --> 00:23:21.960 And then she told me, and it was like iceberg lettuce and ranch dressing. 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.450 She in her head that was like, you know, yeah, that was healthy. 00:23:27.451 --> 00:23:28.500 That's what she'd been taught. 00:23:28.950 --> 00:23:33.420 She was like trying to, um, she was trying to eat differently for her own health. 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:42.869 And then I asked her more about that and, um, what the actual root problem was is that she had food scarcity. 00:23:44.490 --> 00:23:49.160 So someone paying for her treatments that was not coming out of her pocket. 00:23:49.250 --> 00:23:59.509 And then, so her re her actual like individual access to resources, particularly food was coming from the food bank or food stamps. 00:24:01.069 --> 00:24:14.240 So it didn't matter that I was giving the perfect formulas or doing like the perfect acupuncture, um, when the root cause of this, like, I can't, I can't give her food advice if she is food insecure. 00:24:16.349 --> 00:24:26.339 So like going to the root, like, like seeing that and understanding like, oh, root, cause it means something different than maybe what we're talking about. 00:24:26.340 --> 00:24:35.220 Like in my clinical training with my professors, like root cause my actually be like capitalism or poverty or whatever 00:24:36.170 --> 00:24:37.369 That makes so much sense. 00:24:38.390 --> 00:24:43.220 I was thinking about, um, a professor that I had an acupuncture school. 00:24:43.221 --> 00:24:52.190 When you were saying that food has different energy or brings certain characteristics with it, what does it Ana annum, 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:54.589 Honey what's animism 00:24:54.619 --> 00:24:55.160 That's right. 00:24:56.630 --> 00:25:12.500 Um, and she was saying that, think of like the energy of popcorn and how it's like so chaotic and so all over the place and so airy and, um, you know, all that like anxious energy. 00:25:13.069 --> 00:25:19.849 And I was eating popcorn like every night for a snack. 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:21.170 And I was like, Hmm. 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:22.880 When she said it, I felt so seen. 00:25:22.881 --> 00:25:27.259 I was like, oh, this is not like helping my anxiety. 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:30.950 And then she brought up a couple other examples. 00:25:31.529 --> 00:25:39.049 One was one was, um, soup, like eating too much soup things that were really liquid and had no boundary. 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:45.799 There was like, you know, looking at your own boundaries in your life and seeing if you had good boundaries. 00:25:45.829 --> 00:25:46.849 That was interesting. 00:25:46.880 --> 00:26:11.750 And

then, um, and then the, the anecdote that she gave me to my popcorn snacking was, um, Buffalo to eat, um, bison, because she was saying when the storm comes in, most other animals run and find shelter from the storm, but Buffalo turn and face the storm and just endure it. 00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:15.500 Like they have this incredible grounded energy. 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:21.529 And so I started eating lots of bison when I was an acupuncture school and it really helped my anxiety. 00:26:22.549 --> 00:26:24.079 That is so cool. 00:26:24.080 --> 00:26:25.759 I love doctrine of signatures. 00:26:25.760 --> 00:26:26.720 I think it's so neat. 00:26:27.650 --> 00:26:28.400 Yeah. 00:26:29.210 --> 00:26:29.569 Yeah. 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.000 It was fascinating to me learning about all that. 00:26:32.509 --> 00:26:38.690 So I'm wondering too, as, as a person of color who's, um, would you call yourself? 00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:40.089 I call myself. 00:26:40.490 --> 00:26:40.880 Okay. 00:26:41.329 --> 00:26:41.750 Totally. 00:26:42.380 --> 00:26:50.250 I'm wondering if you have any personal practices or rituals in place that allow you to connect with your essence or your whole self? 00:26:51.029 --> 00:26:52.980 Um, most, especially as a person of color. 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:55.170 I think it's so important for us to do that. 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:56.240 I don't 00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:12.230 Know if I have like a particular ritual or that, um, I would say that I do have like different, I do have a different practices that I do, um, to help me connect, but they're not quite rituals. 00:27:12.349 --> 00:27:22.910 So it's more around like boundaries around who gets access to me, um, who gets access to my time. 00:27:24.049 --> 00:27:40.740 Uh, part of, part of my, um, no connection to ancestral medicine is knowing that like the healers were also the people who were more gender expansive. 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:51.930 So like my relationship to gender is it's like really within that context of like my cultural heritage and my cultural inheritance. 00:27:51.931 --> 00:27:57.269 So when I do rituals, that's like built into it. 00:27:57.809 --> 00:27:59.789 It's not, it's not separated. 00:28:00.779 --> 00:28:01.829 It's not separated out. 00:28:01.830 --> 00:28:19.349 Like this is the thing because, um, the idea of, of queerness I think is very interesting in that it is always in relationship to, um, like SIS hat normativity. 00:28:20.549 --> 00:28:23.849 Like it, it doesn't in our like modern Western culture. 00:28:23.851 --> 00:28:25.200 It doesn't really exist on its own. 00:28:25.201 --> 00:28:27.960 It's like is like different from something else. 00:28:29.490 --> 00:28:29.910 Right. 00:28:29.940 --> 00:28:37.710 So if I'm going back like, and like really tapping into my ancestors, there wasn't a different something else. 00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:40.890 It was just, there are these things that exist. 00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:43.170 There are these ideas that exist. 00:28:43.171 --> 00:28:44.910 There are these types of people that exist. 00:28:45.329 --> 00:28:53.039 One is not, um, yeah, like what is, what is not like, what is the right word? 00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:59.759 Um, they're not like in relationship to each other, as one is in one is in something. 00:28:59.910 --> 00:29:02.220 I don't know how to say that in a more eloquent way. 00:29:02.221 --> 00:29:03.150 So I hope that, that, 00:29:06.049 --> 00:29:07.369 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:11.299 Like there I'm, I'm imagining like a Venn diagram. 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:12.799 Yeah. 00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:26.450 Kind of, you know, where there's like, I think in our, in, you know, more Western culture, it's like there has to be an overlap or there's one or the other, or, you know, they're in relation to each other, like you were saying. 00:29:27.269 --> 00:29:27.569 Right. 00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:40.829 So I guess another way to talk about it is like, there's like apples and oranges and then someone brings them Mingo mango is like, it's like, not apple, not orange. 00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:47.380 Like you could relate to it that way is it's not an apple and it's not an orange, or it could be like that system mango. 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:48.400 And this is an apple. 00:29:48.930 --> 00:29:49.289 Yeah. 00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:53.339 It doesn't matter what it like the apples and oranges are irrelevant. 00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:54.539 Right. 00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:56.069 It's just, it's its own thing. 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:01.500 It doesn't need to be spoken of like in relationship to the other objects. 00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:03.359 That's so important. 00:30:03.390 --> 00:30:03.930 Yeah. 00:30:05.009 --> 00:30:28.259 And I love, I saw what you were saying recently on Instagram about, cause we're really taught in acupuncture school to have, um, like you were saying to be neutral with our patients or to have this, um, you know, good boundaries with them, with them, according to HIPAA, you know, we can't like wave to them first if we see them out in public or, you know, that kind of thing. 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:46.259 Um, and how as a person, you know, and especially if we're working with another person or a trans patient or, you know, I feel that, I feel, I struggle with that, you know, where I feel like, yeah, I want to connect with this person because there are so few of us, I 00:30:46.259 --> 00:30:47.160 Think that's hard. 00:30:47.670 --> 00:30:51.750 Um, yeah, there's totally like a scarcity mindset. 00:30:51.750 --> 00:31:01.890 Sometimes that I've felt where I'm like, oh, I need to, I want to know everyone, but like, I can't be in relationship outside of like what I'm doing in clinic. 00:31:01.891 --> 00:31:05.279 Or like, if they see me there first and they can't be anything else in my life. 00:31:07.109 --> 00:31:22.109 Um, and I think that like, yeah, like the, the standards of like being neutral, being really removed,

I don't think that they're inherently bad, but it's like, nah, it's just not possible. 00:31:23.099 --> 00:31:40.079 A lot of times, like, especially when I first started practicing, like all my clients were people, I knew they came to me because they knew me, you know, like that was, uh, that is, um, especially for and trans people. 00:31:40.829 --> 00:31:42.390 That is a way that we find safety. 00:31:42.391 --> 00:31:54.779 We have to know enough about the person that we know they're going to be cool that they're not going to say something up to us and traumatizes because so many of us have a history like traumatic medical histories. 00:31:56.490 --> 00:32:03.029 So it's, it's been, uh, it's been like, you know, it's not always easy. 00:32:03.289 --> 00:32:18.029 It's kind of a struggle to understand because we, we do want to protect our patients and we want to protect yourself and we want to like, you know, have all these good boundaries, but it just doesn't, it can't look the same in certain communities, especially when you want to work within your own community. 00:32:18.269 --> 00:32:18.599 Right. 00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:19.529 Yeah. 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:20.190 Totally. 00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:29.160 And it comes back to that, you know, you were saying that your S you know, that your quote unquote ritual for connecting with your whole self is boundaries. 00:32:29.730 --> 00:32:37.980 So it, you know, it's like, that shows up also in clinical practice of like, when, when do you loosen up those boundaries? 00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:39.000 When do you have them in? 00:32:40.589 --> 00:32:42.289 Um, that's interesting to think about, 00:32:43.569 --> 00:32:44.109 Yeah. 00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:47.109 And it's what I've come to. 00:32:47.619 --> 00:32:57.849 Um, just cause the community is so small and you can't really avoid everyone is that is like just, just having as much transparency as possible. 00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:02.650 And just being like, Hey, I know that we're in community. 00:33:03.250 --> 00:33:04.869 We might run into each other. 00:33:05.589 --> 00:33:06.730 So here's my boundary. 00:33:06.730 --> 00:33:14.930 If we do, is there another boundary that you have because it's, I mean, it's all about informed consent. 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.839 It's about ongoing consent because that might change. 00:33:17.869 --> 00:33:18.200 Right? 00:33:18.201 --> 00:33:26.390 Like there have definitely been people where we worked together and it was great and we knew each other outside and then, um, that relationship shifted. 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:33.650 So then it's like, then we don't work with each other again as like patient and practitioner. 00:33:34.579 --> 00:33:42.500 Um, and that's where like building relationships with other providers that you can refer to is really, really helpful. 00:33:42.670 --> 00:33:43.119 Right. 00:33:43.809 --> 00:33:44.109 Yeah. 00:33:44.111 --> 00:33:54.220 And I do think, you know, compartmentalizing like that is such a westernized colonized way of thinking about things. 00:33:55.269 --> 00:34:04.269 Um, and something I've noticed in the community is consent is a big, um, is a theme that comes up over and over again. 00:34:04.390 --> 00:34:11.679 And I think that, that makes so much sense to me that that would also carry over into clinical practice. 00:34:13.030 --> 00:34:37.570 I wanted to ask you as a non-Asian acupuncturist like myself, and I know, I know that I have a lot of non-Asian acupuncturists in my community that, um, as to you, as we all do, um, what can we do to honor this medicine that we're practicing and minimize further harm to Asian communities? 00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:44.440 Um, I know it's not possible to, you know, not cause any harm, but to minimize it as best we can. 00:34:45.730 --> 00:34:47.739 Um, and I'm wondering just what your thoughts are on that. 00:34:47.740 --> 00:35:01.179 If you have any resources that you recommend, um, I know you and I were chatting through DMS a little while ago about how our main textbooks are written by[inaudible] who's Italian. 00:35:02.260 --> 00:35:08.769 So like our, this version of Chinese medicine that we're practicing in the U S is, is already colonized. 00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:09.960 Yeah. 00:35:10.710 --> 00:35:18.809 Um, you know, uh, I'm, I'm again, knocking to say that I speak for everyone on this topic. 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:35.940 Um, but I think that it's easy to get caught up on, on the complexities and the nuances of, of like, how to proceed, like with reparations, um, around this kind of issue around, around Chinese medicine. 00:35:35.969 --> 00:35:49.230 And I've had a lot of people ask for resources around this, and I don't think it's okay, I'm going to answer this in a very, maybe very annoying way. 00:35:50.159 --> 00:36:00.960 Um, so the times where I have answered people, white folks specifically, um, who have asked this like nothing happened. 00:36:02.309 --> 00:36:13.079 So I recently was on a thread where someone asked this question and the responses were like, here's this article? 00:36:13.110 --> 00:36:24.389 Here's this article, here's this book like, it was, it was the white people look like they just really like the book clubs, all of the people who were active on the thread were all white folks. 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:34.110 And so my response was, well, like I'm doing de-colonizing work, I'm in the API community. 00:36:35.219 --> 00:36:36.900 Um, you can support my Patrion. 00:36:37.110 --> 00:36:43.289 You can also support cams and Lee Tamson Lee is very vocal and active and doing kind of work. 00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:46.559 Like there's some, here's two people. 00:36:46.860 --> 00:36:53.690 We're not the only ones crickets, like nothing, nothing happened around it. 00:36:53.690 --> 00:36:56.900 So I'm actually knocking in. 00:36:57.559 --> 00:36:58.519 It's super frustrating. 00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:01.880 I'm not going to give more reading material.

00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:02.449 Yeah. 00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:03.519 Yeah. 00:37:03.739 --> 00:37:04.280 That's fair. 00:37:06.230 --> 00:37:13.130 Because I feel like there are already a lot of people who were super vocal about what they need as a community. 00:37:14.449 --> 00:37:20.150 And if you're not seeing any of that, you're not receiving that information. 00:37:21.380 --> 00:37:29.960 Um, I think you need to check like who your sources are, what information are you surrounding yourself with? 00:37:29.989 --> 00:37:32.389 Because it's not that there aren't voices happening. 00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:33.170 Totally. 00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:37.159 I feel like there's actually so much information. 00:37:37.161 --> 00:37:38.000 I can't keep up. 00:37:39.889 --> 00:37:54.710 Um, so it's, it's more changing the way that people relate to that information or receive that information and then actually acting on it in a very material way. 00:37:56.420 --> 00:38:13.400 So it's like, it's like anything that you might have taken that isn't yours just like pay for it, you know, like in whatever way, that means in a way that it actually a way that someone wants to receive it. 00:38:14.690 --> 00:38:20.030 Um, and you know, like it's, it's kind of like, like paying back rent. 00:38:21.530 --> 00:38:35.239 So in whatever you're doing, does that uplift the community that this is from in a way that they actually want to be uplifted and money is like one of the easiest, like obvious ways to do that as redistributing funds. 00:38:35.739 --> 00:38:36.880 It's not the only way. 00:38:38.530 --> 00:38:41.139 Um, it could be like, you're donating time. 00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:52.210 It could be that you're setting up a scholarship fund and fundraising for a BiPAP, acupuncturists, Asian acupuncturists to go to school. 00:38:53.590 --> 00:38:55.329 Uh, maybe you pay for my student loans. 00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:57.110 Yeah. 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.519 I'll be Congress to like cancel student debt. 00:39:04.170 --> 00:39:22.409 You know, like what are the barriers that are, um, stopping people from accessing their own medicine as an, as a practitioner or as a patient, because it's not only that our colleagues are mostly white in the U S it's like a lot of our clientele. 00:39:23.550 --> 00:39:27.599 Um, a lot of the people who have access to Chinese medicine and happens to be white as well. 00:39:28.769 --> 00:39:30.329 Well, they don't happen to be white. 00:39:30.331 --> 00:39:32.429 Like that is, that is part of the structure. 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:33.150 Right. 00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:35.010 That's how it's set up. 00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:36.599 Yeah. 00:39:36.630 --> 00:39:37.889 I love that response. 00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:40.469 I think that makes total sense. 00:39:40.650 --> 00:39:43.320 And it's not just a one and done thing. 00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:50.309 It's an ongoing, like undoing of the way that everything was set up. 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:51.269 Like you said. 00:39:52.170 --> 00:39:52.650 Yeah. 00:39:52.710 --> 00:39:58.590 Like a lot of people will do acknowledgements over the medicine came from, and then they kind of stops there. 00:39:58.829 --> 00:39:59.400 Right. 00:40:00.570 --> 00:40:05.130 And like, I didn't hear anything from NCC AOM when folks got shot up in Atlanta. 00:40:05.500 --> 00:40:06.449 Right. 00:40:06.809 --> 00:40:08.070 Gosh, good point. 00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:20.969 Um, I didn't see any of them, like doing anything around like Asian, like anti-Asian violence, um, that NCC AOM literally still has Oriental medicine in the name. 00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:42.510 Like if people are serious about like actually changing things and making reparations change the name of our professional organization, change the names of the schools that are teaching this medicine in the U S like so many of them still have O M in it. 00:40:42.900 --> 00:40:42.900 Yeah. 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:44.070 Yeah. 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:49.679 The title, you know, if you, you know, in one of the titles you can get has, has Oriental in it. 00:40:50.130 --> 00:40:50.369 Yeah. 00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:58.500 My, I don't like to write out the name of my degree because it's Mac owned, which is masters in acupuncture and Oriental medicine. 00:40:58.769 --> 00:41:00.030 It's embarrassing. 00:41:01.219 --> 00:41:01.880 Right. 00:41:03.230 --> 00:41:04.099 That's so up. 00:41:05.269 --> 00:41:05.659 Yeah. 00:41:06.230 --> 00:41:16.070 For anyone listening, who doesn't know what the NCCA AOM is, it's the board that certifies us as acupuncturists and they need to do better. 00:41:18.619 --> 00:41:36.050 Well, Jamie, how can folks support you in particular and, um, find you and respect your boundaries and, and support in monetary ways and all other ways. 00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:43.599 Um, so my website is jamie-panetta-lac.com. 00:41:44.349 --> 00:41:48.070 So on that website, you'll find my social media links. 00:41:48.099 --> 00:41:49.570 If you want to check me out there. 00:41:50.289 --> 00:42:02.199 Um, I also have my Patriana account, uh, linked to my website and I love doing patron because it provides, um, a more steady income for me. 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:07.030 And what I do with that is actually, um, give free services out to people. 00:42:07.659 --> 00:42:08.500 Perfect. 00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:18.909 So I'm doing a lot of, I've been doing a lot of classes, um, particularly for QT BiPAP that are, um, sliding scale or freak, depending on who those folks are. 00:42:19.900 --> 00:42:23.800 Um, we do a lot of like chigong some classes. 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:30.159 Um, and then I also have a lot of writing on there as well, um, through my blog. 00:42:30.250 --> 00:42:35.110 And I'm also going to be starting a podcast very soon. 00:42:35.260 --> 00:42:46.300 I mean, the pro in, in process, um, uh, well, I'm, I'm not actually doing the editing, but the first episode is being edited as we speak. 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:50.170 So that should come out the decolonizing medicine podcast. 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:51.550 Amazing. 00:42:51.579 --> 00:42:53.170 Oh, I'm so excited to listen. 00:42:54.460 --> 00:42:54.880 Yay. 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:59.739 Well, thank you so much, Jamie, for being here, I admire and respect you and your work so much. 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:03.130 And I know that my listeners have learned so much too. 00:43:04.539 --> 00:43:05.800 Thanks for letting me be here. 00:43:15.610 --> 00:43:17.889 I have good news podcast. 00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:32.650 Merge is available now until July 18th, you can represent and support the intersectional fertility podcast with a cool t-shirt hoodie crew, neck, sweatshirt, tank, mug, or tote by supporting this campaign. 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:37.719 You're helping me to continue bringing you consistent high quality fertility content. 00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:43.150 Your dollars will go towards production, editing, prep, time and 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