Full Transcript for Courtney Ugle - Intergenerational Strength

Wadandi Nhoongar. 67 00:04:03.976 --> 00:04:05.398 Okay, so not a great job. 68 00:04:05.418 --> 00:04:06.378 No, no, no, really. 69 00:04:06.579 --> 00:04:07.179 No, good. 70 00:04:07.559 --> 00:04:07.820 Thank you. 71 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:08.400 First try. 72 00:04:09.421 --> 00:04:18.108 In 2018, Courtney moved to Melbourne to pursue an opportunity with the Essendon Bombers in the VFLW, a move which she claims changed and saved her life. 73 00:04:18.849 --> 00:04:21.571 Football provided Courtney with a purpose and a sense of community. 74 00:04:21.691 --> 00:04:30.779 Her leadership skills and talents saw her promoted to co-captain of the VFLW team in 2023, the first Indigenous woman to ever fulfil this role. 75 00:04:30.799 --> 00:04:31.700 That must have made you very proud. 76 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:33.482 I was very proud of that. 77 00:04:33.662 --> 00:04:40.888 Off-field, Courtney was involved in the founding of the First Nations Women's Development Program at Essendon for the AFLW and VFLW players. 78 00:04:41.989 --> 00:04:46.213 Courtney now plays – so you were with the Bulldogs and you are now with the Kangaroos. 79 00:04:46.233 --> 00:04:46.553 Mm-hmm. 80 00:04:47.718 --> 00:04:48.719 Can you say North Melbourne? 81 00:04:48.779 --> 00:04:50.040 Do people say North Melbourne anymore? 82 00:04:50.060 --> 00:04:50.880 It's just kangaroos, isn't it? 83 00:04:50.940 --> 00:04:52.381 I think it's just the kangaroos. 84 00:04:52.401 --> 00:04:53.202 I'm not too sure. 85 00:04:53.242 --> 00:04:56.364 I'm still very new, so I'm still learning the terminology over there. 86 00:04:56.384 --> 00:04:58.266 Just kangaroos instead of kangaroos even? 87 00:04:58.406 --> 00:04:59.066 Yeah. 88 00:04:59.707 --> 00:05:00.687 Jeez, things have changed. 89 00:05:03.169 --> 00:05:04.570 Everyone's so fast-paced these days. 90 00:05:04.590 --> 00:05:05.871 We haven't got time to say roos. 91 00:05:07.517 --> 00:05:08.618 This is one too many syllables. 92 00:05:09.478 --> 00:05:14.922 After moving to Melbourne, Courtney began working at JIRA, formerly known as the Aboriginal Family Violence and Legal Service. 93 00:05:15.522 --> 00:05:18.284 Courtney now leads the Young Love Initiative at JIRA. 94 00:05:18.364 --> 00:05:20.405 Well, you did up until very recently, is that right? 95 00:05:20.466 --> 00:05:21.246 Yeah. 96 00:05:21.266 --> 00:05:24.668 Which aims to inform young Aboriginal girls about healthy relationships. 97 00:05:26.009 --> 00:05:33.853 Now, however, so in 2024, Courtney launched Warkening as the CEO and founder, translating to speaking in Nungar language. 98 00:05:34.474 --> 00:05:46.140 Warkening empowers individuals and communities through storytelling in the form of workshops, keynote speeches and consultancy services, which really makes sense why you're like, right, we need to, you and I need to Warkening. 99 00:05:46.880 --> 00:05:47.681 Yes, that's right. 100 00:05:47.701 --> 00:05:49.522 Can you tell us a bit more about Warkening? 101 00:05:49.960 --> 00:06:04.047 Yeah, so Warkening essentially was born from my own struggles and, you know, me 10 years ago would not even think that it was possible for me to own my own business or to be the founder of something, right? 102 00:06:04.147 --> 00:06:10.370 And my mission is to inspire individuals and communities to transform adversity into influence through the power of storytelling. 103 00:06:11.250 --> 00:06:25.075 I mean, it's sort of, even though the story clearly is very different than the story Hugh would tell when he was doing his talk, I can see why you resonated with the book when you read it, because it is very kind of similar, like very parallel experience. 104 00:06:25.215 --> 00:06:32.237 And I said this to Hugh, I said the part that I loved because I felt the most connected with was the day that he couldn't pay for his coffee. 105 00:06:33.037 --> 00:06:35.318 And I'm a big coffee snob. 106 00:06:35.578 --> 00:06:37.878 We've been drinking coffee since we were like young kids. 107 00:06:38.358 --> 00:06:39.919 How young? 108 00:06:40.159 --> 00:06:42.279 So probably like 12, 13. 109 00:06:42.359 --> 00:06:54.042 Now the back story of that is so mum had some difficulties, you know, being a single parent trying to raise kids and often that meant that we would be without children. 110 00:06:54.142 --> 00:06:55.163 food and power. 111 00:06:55.283 --> 00:06:57.044 And, you know, sometimes we didn't even know where mum was. 112 00:06:57.124 --> 00:06:57.364 Right. 113 00:06:57.404 --> 00:07:00.986 So if there was no food in the house, there was stuff to make instant coffee. 114 00:07:01.047 --> 00:07:06.210 So we would, we would honestly just be drinking instant coffee, um, just to kind of feel full. 115 00:07:06.670 --> 00:07:10.773 And so that was about, you know, 12, 13 and it just has not stopped. 116 00:07:11.954 --> 00:07:13.154 Um, it has not stopped. 117 00:07:13.234 --> 00:07:13.595 So. 118 00:07:13.695 --> 00:07:14.015 Wow. 119 00:07:14.455 --> 00:07:15.616 What sort of coffee do you take now? 120 00:07:15.856 --> 00:07:20.417 Oh, now I'm a snob and Melbourne has done this to me, but I drink an oat magic. 121 00:07:20.958 --> 00:07:21.338 Oh, me too. 122 00:07:21.698 --> 00:07:21.958 Yeah. 123 00:07:21.978 --> 00:07:22.538 That's my favourite. 124 00:07:22.578 --> 00:07:22.718 Yeah. 125 00:07:22.938 --> 00:07:23.238 It's great. 126 00:07:23.258 --> 00:07:28.060 If my family back home asked me what coffee I drink and I said that, they would laugh at me. 127 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:30.340 Like it is just unheard of. 128 00:07:30.440 --> 00:07:31.040 No, no, sorry. 129 00:07:31.061 --> 00:07:31.941 What coffee do you drink? 130 00:07:31.981 --> 00:07:35.682 But is a magic, I feel like magic is quite Melbourne centric. 131 00:07:36.242 --> 00:07:47.334 Yeah, even my mother-in-law who is Bendigo and is a country woman from way back, she'll say like, I'll get you a coffee, what are you having? 132

00:07:47.434 --> 00:07:48.395 And I'll say, oh, magic. 133 00:07:48.435 --> 00:07:50.077 She's like, I'm not saying that. 134 00:07:50.137 --> 00:07:50.777 Yeah, that's embarrassing. 135 00:07:50.797 --> 00:07:52.299 There's no way I'm saying that to the brister. 136 00:07:52.659 --> 00:07:52.959 Yeah. 137 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:53.780 This is Stitch Up. 138 00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:05.104 And so to your point about the coffee, when Hugh couldn't pay for his coffee, that resonated with me because I've always said to people, like, the day that I can't afford to buy my own coffee, then something's really wrong. 139 00:08:05.244 --> 00:08:07.385 You know, like something is wrong because... 140 00:08:08.205 --> 00:08:10.928 Back in the day, that was something that we used to feel full. 141 00:08:11.008 --> 00:08:14.692 And now it is a bit of a luxury for me to be able to go and buy a coffee. 142 00:08:15.053 --> 00:08:17.876 And so I just, I don't know, I just really resonated with that line. 143 00:08:18.797 --> 00:08:24.803 And yeah, people know that if there comes a time where I can't afford my own coffee, then something's wrong. 144 00:08:25.203 --> 00:08:28.527 What was it like, a kid from Bunbury coming to Melbourne? 145 00:08:28.567 --> 00:08:29.448 What was that like? 146 00:08:30.310 --> 00:08:46.344 It was a very different way of living because, you know, I come from a community, a country town where everybody knows everyone and I suppose it's not off topic but it's a really important part of my move is that I was never questioned of my Aboriginality until I moved here to Melbourne. 147 00:08:47.344 --> 00:08:57.833 Um, and that for me was so challenging because I couldn't understand that someone would look at me and not see me as an Aboriginal person because that's all I've ever known my entire life. 148 00:08:58.313 --> 00:09:03.958 Obviously I'm fair in appearance and I have blonde hair, but my bloodline is strong and I know where I come from. 149 00:09:04.238 --> 00:09:10.143 You know, both my mum and dad are Aboriginal, both sets of my grandparents, Aboriginal growing up with my darker skin family members. 150 00:09:10.183 --> 00:09:11.144 I didn't feel any less. 151 00:09:11.704 --> 00:09:12.645 Aboriginal than anybody. 152 00:09:12.705 --> 00:09:19.892 So coming here and being questioned of that was one quite daunting because I didn't know how to respond to that. 153 00:09:20.693 --> 00:09:31.483 So navigating a different, I suppose, community, I'm so used to seeing, you know, my people and cousins and family members just walking around and everyone essentially was a complete stranger here to me. 154 00:09:32.064 --> 00:09:35.607 When you say your Aboriginality was questioned, what do you mean? 155 00:09:35.647 --> 00:09:35.847 Yeah. 156 00:09:36.708 --> 00:09:41.832 So if I said like, oh, yeah, I'm a Noongar woman, someone would be like, oh, so on what side of the family? 157 00:09:41.852 --> 00:09:42.652 Okay. 158 00:09:42.913 --> 00:09:48.957 Or the biggest one that I find funny now, but they would say, but you can't be Aboriginal, you have blonde hair. 159 00:09:49.638 --> 00:09:55.362 And they were really confused that an Aboriginal person could have blonde hair, naturally blonde hair, I must say. 160 00:09:56.382 --> 00:10:01.344 but they couldn't grasp that I could look the way that I do and be Aboriginal. 161 00:10:01.364 --> 00:10:05.746 So I'd get asked what percentage I am, you know, is it my mum or my dad or is it my grandparents? 162 00:10:05.766 --> 00:10:11.368 Like how far does this go back because you can't be Aboriginal when you physically look not Aboriginal. 163 00:10:11.468 --> 00:10:12.049 You know what I mean? 164 00:10:12.609 --> 00:10:17.211 So I've known that I have been an Aboriginal person from the day that I entered the world. 165 00:10:18.011 --> 00:10:26.436 Um, and so as, when I honed in on that and that strength and just that knowing about where I come from, no one was ever going to take that away from me. 166 00:10:27.576 --> 00:10:27.877 Awesome. 167 00:10:28.717 --> 00:10:28.997 Beautiful. 168 00:10:29.758 --> 00:10:32.399 Um, well, you're in the vulnerability house. 169 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:39.803 Uh, there are cards in front of you if you'd like to, uh, grab three of them and then you can choose the one that really speaks to you the most. 170 00:10:40.704 --> 00:10:41.144 Just three? 171 00:10:41.527 --> 00:10:41.807 Yep. 172 00:10:41.867 --> 00:10:42.087 Yeah. 173 00:10:42.527 --> 00:10:43.528 How's the tea, by the way? 174 00:10:43.608 --> 00:10:44.688 Oh, I haven't had a taste yet. 175 00:10:44.708 --> 00:10:47.109 No, neither have I. Peppermint tea? 176 00:10:47.309 --> 00:10:47.549 Yep. 177 00:10:47.749 --> 00:10:48.009 Love it. 178 00:10:48.029 --> 00:10:50.950 What do you think of our mugs but they're glasses? 179 00:10:51.370 --> 00:10:51.890 Very cute. 180 00:10:52.230 --> 00:10:52.750 Okay. 181 00:10:53.410 --> 00:10:53.890 Did you pick them? 182 00:10:53.990 --> 00:10:54.791 I did not pick them, no. 183 00:10:55.251 --> 00:10:55.431 Did I? 184 00:10:55.451 --> 00:10:57.731 I didn't pick them, did I? 185 00:10:57.871 --> 00:10:59.132 You did most? 186 00:10:59.152 --> 00:10:59.232 No. 187 00:10:59.252 --> 00:11:01.192 There's no I. 188 00:11:01.232 --> 00:11:01.532 No. 189 00:11:01.793 --> 00:11:01.993 No. 190 00:11:02.953 --> 00:11:03.313 Yeah. 191 00:11:04.273 --> 00:11:05.133 Oh, dear. 192 00:11:05.193 --> 00:11:06.374 Okay, so I'll read these ones out. 193 00:11:07.154 --> 00:11:09.575 So this first one is what triggers anxiety in you? 194 00:11:10.915 --> 00:11:10.995 Mm. 195 00:11:12.992 --> 00:11:14.633 What insecurities have held you back? 196 00:11:15.654 --> 00:11:16.634 That's a really good question. 197 00:11:18.875 --> 00:11:21.496 What childhood challenges best prepared you for adulthood? 198 00:11:23.157 --> 00:11:23.497 Oh, yeah. 199 00:11:24.077 --> 00:11:24.957 I reckon I'll go with that one. 200

00:11:25.618 --> 00:11:25.998 Okay. 201 00:11:27.978 --> 00:11:28.279 Yeah. 202 00:11:29.079 --> 00:11:30.940 This is interesting because... 203 00:11:32.262 --> 00:11:41.704 At no point in my childhood when we were experiencing some pretty heavy stuff that I feel, you know, no child should ever really experience that. 204 00:11:41.764 --> 00:11:51.346 But at no point did I think that this was a lesson that I was going to be taught or that I was going to take into my adult life. 205 00:11:51.786 --> 00:11:55.547 Because when you are a young adolescent, a young teenager, and you are – 206 00:11:56.654 --> 00:11:59.575 wondering where is your next meal coming from? 207 00:11:59.655 --> 00:12:00.916 How come we don't have any lights on? 208 00:12:00.956 --> 00:12:02.757 Like, you know, the power bill hasn't been paid. 209 00:12:03.717 --> 00:12:08.940 You don't think that what you're learning is going to carry off into your adult life? 210 00:12:09.020 --> 00:12:09.820 No. 211 00:12:10.140 --> 00:12:19.745 And so when I think about the things that we had to do as young kids, you know, for example, knocking on the neighbour's door asking for food was something that was quite common for us. 212 00:12:20.025 --> 00:12:25.828 And so I think when I look back and reminisce on what we went through as – 213 00:12:26.488 --> 00:12:34.810 young children, there's so many things that I was taught back then that obviously have come into play now as an adult. 214 00:12:34.830 --> 00:12:42.172 And some of them aren't, I suppose, you know, great because a lot of it is trauma response to what I experienced. 215 00:12:42.192 --> 00:12:52.594 Like my independence today is very hard for people that are closest to me because I feel like I just have to do everything, solve every problem on my own. 216 00:12:56.575 --> 00:12:57.596 is very hard for me to do. 217 00:12:57.616 --> 00:12:59.417 Oh, that's interesting. 218 00:12:59.557 --> 00:13:03.799 It's hard for you to ask for help even though that was such a big part of your childhood. 219 00:13:03.819 --> 00:13:05.960 That's right, yeah. 220 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:12.883 And as a child we had a lot of different people, random people, teachers from our school that came to our aid a lot of the time. 221 00:13:13.844 --> 00:13:24.169 But learning to figure things out on my own is one of my great qualities but also can be very detrimental because I can suffer in silence 222 00:13:24.789 --> 00:13:28.590 trying to figure something out when all I needed to do is just ask for help. 223 00:13:28.670 --> 00:13:30.250 So this is something I'm trying to learn, right? 224 00:13:30.290 --> 00:13:39.413 So my mum had a lot of battles with drugs and alcohol and for a long time, you know, as a young child, she wasn't someone that I idolised or wanted to be like. 225 00:13:40.313 --> 00:13:48.875 It only now as an adult that she had the qualities that I possess today and the qualities, 226 00:13:49.775 --> 00:13:56.099 being kind and not judging anyone, you know, the book by its cover, sharing, mum used to say sharing is caring. 227 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:07.887 So the ability to share with people, um, the ability to open up your heart and your mind, like all these things that I now have today are because of my mum, but I didn't recognize them or know them at the time. 228 00:14:08.408 --> 00:14:18.855 And so she wasn't someone I idolized or wanted to be like back then, but now like I'm so proud to be her daughter because the qualities, um, that I have have come from my mum and it's so crazy. 229 00:14:18.875 --> 00:14:18.975 Yeah. 230 00:14:19.400 --> 00:14:26.407 almost like you can see your mum and probably your whole life, I'm assuming, but as an adult you see life through a different lens. 231 00:14:26.728 --> 00:14:26.948 Absolutely. 232 00:14:26.968 --> 00:14:28.129 And you have different experiences. 233 00:14:28.369 --> 00:14:28.630 Yeah. 234 00:14:29.050 --> 00:14:33.775 And I think one of the best lines she ever said was like, one day you'll understand. 235 00:14:33.995 --> 00:14:34.356 Absolutely. 236 00:14:34.796 --> 00:14:37.699 As I sit here today, like, I understand. 237 00:14:38.760 --> 00:14:49.390 But with mum's struggles, like, her ability to still help others, you know, she would give you the close of her back if it meant that you were okay, while she went without, like... 238 00:14:50.883 --> 00:14:59.007 I didn't see that as something that was a good quality back then, you know, because it was like, why would you give that person something and now you've got nothing, you know? 239 00:14:59.067 --> 00:15:04.730 And so mum taught me so much about life in some really weird and messed up ways even. 240 00:15:05.210 --> 00:15:10.113 But I find myself thinking, you know, shit, this is – I'm like this because of my mum. 241 00:15:10.849 --> 00:15:14.352 Can you talk a bit more about the things that she did struggle with? 242 00:15:14.432 --> 00:15:17.095 Like what were the – you've mentioned a couple of times that she had struggles. 243 00:15:17.115 --> 00:15:19.657 What were they – or what did they look like through your eyes? 244 00:15:19.797 --> 00:15:20.498 Yeah, yeah. 245 00:15:21.839 --> 00:15:23.701 So I'll only share my stories. 246 00:15:23.741 --> 00:15:27.084 I don't like to speak for others because I think that's their story to tell. 247 00:15:27.844 --> 00:15:31.027 So I'll come in from a child perspective. 248 00:15:31.047 --> 00:15:32.729 So growing up, my mum – 249 00:15:34.230 --> 00:15:41.053 she was abused by every single partner that came into the house, physically, mentally, emotionally, financially. 250 00:15:41.093 --> 00:15:43.114 And again, we didn't know those big words back in the day. 251 00:15:43.494 --> 00:15:48.676 We just knew that our mum would be violently abused by these men that came in. 252 00:15:49.296 --> 00:15:50.216 Would you witness that? 253 00:15:50.337 --> 00:15:51.037 Yeah, yeah. 254 00:15:51.057 --> 00:15:51.677

Oh, my God. 255 00:15:51.797 --> 00:15:52.017 Yeah. 256 00:15:52.117 --> 00:15:53.058 How old are you? 257 00:15:53.658 --> 00:15:58.080 I reckon from five years upwards. 258 00:15:58.660 --> 00:15:58.900 Mm-hmm. 259 00:15:59.540 --> 00:16:01.861 Yeah, until I was 19 years old. 260 00:16:02.421 --> 00:16:03.962 I can't think of him more scary as a child. 261 00:16:04.810 --> 00:16:07.492 It was so, so scary, so scary. 262 00:16:07.592 --> 00:16:15.378 And again, like reflecting on a lot of those times, I think, you know, you push a lot of your memories back into your mind or you suppress it, right? 263 00:16:15.478 --> 00:16:21.744 And it comes up in weird ways and comes out in your physical appearance, like how you respond to certain triggers. 264 00:16:22.444 --> 00:16:25.467 And I do share this story when I'm comfortable. 265 00:16:27.629 --> 00:16:31.151 So when I say mum was abused by every single man, like every single man, 266 00:16:32.012 --> 00:16:36.098 Um, but I remember this one time it was mum's birthday and it was just, I was the only child there. 267 00:16:36.118 --> 00:16:40.904 It was mum and her partner and they were sitting around the table like this and they were having a few drinks and. 268 00:16:40.924 --> 00:16:42.286 And how old are you, sorry? 269 00:16:42.426 --> 00:16:44.729 I would have been 11 or 12, I think 12. 270 00:16:44.829 --> 00:16:45.270 Yeah. 271 00:16:45.290 --> 00:16:45.550 Um, yeah. 272 00:16:48.474 --> 00:16:54.938 And so we're sitting around and mum had said to her partner at the time, we should go down to the pub, have a few drinks, like have some dinner there. 273 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:56.479 And he didn't like this. 274 00:16:56.659 --> 00:17:01.702 And so he leant over the table with a cigarette and burnt her on the cheek with the smoke. 275 00:17:02.443 --> 00:17:05.145 And I remember she had this big mark on her face for so long. 276 00:17:05.665 --> 00:17:13.250 Anyway, they were arguing that night and I was asleep and it would have been about three o'clock in the morning and mum comes in to me and she's whispering, she's like, babe, like we need to go, we need to go. 277 00:17:13.270 --> 00:17:13.370 Yeah. 278 00:17:14.010 --> 00:17:14.850 And I'm thinking, what? 279 00:17:14.890 --> 00:17:15.891 Like, what do you mean? 280 00:17:15.911 --> 00:17:16.911 She's like, we can't go out the door. 281 00:17:16.931 --> 00:17:18.731 We have to go out on the side. 282 00:17:19.192 --> 00:17:22.252 And this apartment that we're in was a two-story complex. 283 00:17:22.412 --> 00:17:24.393 And she was like, we have to jump off the balcony. 284 00:17:24.713 --> 00:17:26.154 And so I'm just listening to mum. 285 00:17:26.174 --> 00:17:28.454 I'm just doing whatever mum's telling me to do. 286 00:17:28.474 --> 00:17:32.795 So we open up the door, the sliding door, and mum jumps off. 287 00:17:33.196 --> 00:17:34.136 And she's like, come on, baby, come. 288 00:17:34.156 --> 00:17:34.536 You have to jump. 289 00:17:34.556 --> 00:17:35.036 You have to jump. 290 00:17:35.116 --> 00:17:35.976 How high up are you? 291 00:17:36.036 --> 00:17:37.877 It was two flights, like two stories up. 292 00:17:38.217 --> 00:17:38.337 Oh. 293 00:17:38.994 --> 00:17:48.778 And so I jump and we land, like mum's trying to catch me, and we land on the floor and we go to this little bush area and she lit a smoke and she got a phone. 294 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:54.061 And then we started running the streets of Perth to this house and this lady was at the front. 295 00:17:55.101 --> 00:17:57.063 She had the car on and the door open. 296 00:17:57.183 --> 00:18:01.647 And I remember she looked so familiar and she was the mother of my little friend that used to play with at the park across the road. 297 00:18:02.368 --> 00:18:06.211 And so now when I think about this and I reflect, like, mum had that planned. 298 00:18:06.231 --> 00:18:08.474 Like, it was organised. 299 00:18:08.494 --> 00:18:12.677 And I think, like, I was so terrified that, 300 00:18:14.251 --> 00:18:17.472 I couldn't imagine my mum, right, and how she felt. 301 00:18:17.492 --> 00:18:19.933 And this wasn't the first time that she'd been in a situation like that. 302 00:18:19.973 --> 00:18:23.914 And she just would have hated that she had one of her babies with her during this time. 303 00:18:23.955 --> 00:18:26.055 But that's just one story. 304 00:18:27.116 --> 00:18:28.856 There are so many more. 305 00:18:28.876 --> 00:18:29.577 Wow. 306 00:18:29.597 --> 00:18:31.937 Oh, my God. 307 00:18:32.037 --> 00:18:35.519 Like what happens to you in the few weeks after that, like in the coming days? 308 00:18:35.579 --> 00:18:36.379 Or are you just... 309 00:18:37.055 --> 00:18:41.600 Well, I'm a young child, so I don't really have a good grasp of what's really happening. 310 00:18:42.081 --> 00:18:44.203 I don't have understanding of what's actually happening around us. 311 00:18:44.243 --> 00:18:50.150 Again, you know, I was born into this environment where family domestic violence was normalized. 312 00:18:50.290 --> 00:18:52.293 You know, it wasn't just our family going through this. 313 00:18:52.313 --> 00:18:55.857 There were so many people in our family that were experiencing the same thing. 314 00:18:55.897 --> 00:18:56.137 So... 315 00:18:56.838 --> 00:19:04.304 for so long, especially in my young adolescent years, you know, you start to think, is this the way people show love to one another? 316 00:19:04.804 --> 00:19:06.045 Is this how it's meant to be? 317 00:19:06.065 --> 00:19:07.366 Because that's what I saw. 318 00:19:07.406 --> 00:19:09.327 That's what was modelled around me. 319 00:19:09.368 --> 00:19:12.850 And again, not just in my household, but in our community. 320 00:19:14.912 --> 00:19:22.798 Yeah, a lot of it is kind of a blur, but I remember we would be on edge mainly because of mum being on edge and, you know, you kind of, 321 00:19:24.025 --> 00:19:30.749 you take on those feelings and

even though you have no idea what's happening, um, but you know, walking the streets and like looking over our heads. 322 00:19:31.090 --> 00:19:34.252 Um, I remember coming out of school one time and like, he'd be there. 323 00:19:35.012 --> 00:19:40.856 Um, like it, it's now that I think back, like it was really, like, it was really scary. 324 00:19:40.876 --> 00:19:41.696 Yeah. 325 00:19:41.716 --> 00:19:41.897 Um, yeah, 326 00:19:42.717 --> 00:19:48.440 And I don't, I honestly don't know how my mum kept persevering through all these different men. 327 00:19:49.801 --> 00:19:52.422 And my mum did her very best with what she had for us kids. 328 00:19:52.462 --> 00:19:55.603 And, you know, a lot of the time it wasn't good enough, but it was her best. 329 00:19:55.803 --> 00:19:56.664 Yeah. 330 00:19:56.964 --> 00:19:58.705 You don't have to answer this question at all if you don't want to. 331 00:19:58.725 --> 00:20:01.786 I'm just curious to know about your dad. 332 00:20:02.147 --> 00:20:05.008 So did you know your dad at all and what happened there? 333 00:20:05.228 --> 00:20:05.768 Yeah, yeah. 334 00:20:05.788 --> 00:20:10.449 So my mum and dad were quite young when they met and fell in love and had four beautiful children. 335 00:20:11.850 --> 00:20:14.050 They split up when I was about three or four years old. 336 00:20:14.070 --> 00:20:16.771 So I don't actually have a lot of memories of mum and dad being together. 337 00:20:17.571 --> 00:20:22.172 My older two siblings do, and they have a lot of their own stories that are theirs to tell. 338 00:20:22.772 --> 00:20:28.874 But what I will say is that when they separated, we were not necessarily kept from that side of the family. 339 00:20:28.894 --> 00:20:31.614 Like we still went up and visited on school holidays. 340 00:20:31.634 --> 00:20:34.915 We even lived with dad for a little while and got enrolled in school. 341 00:20:35.675 --> 00:20:39.697 And a lot of the memories that I do have with dad, you know, involved alcohol. 342 00:20:39.897 --> 00:20:40.837 And that was just normal. 343 00:20:40.997 --> 00:20:43.378 Like it was just normal for dad to have a drink every night. 344 00:20:44.258 --> 00:20:46.679 But when I was 11 years old, my dad lost his life. 345 00:20:47.499 --> 00:20:53.441 So quite early on in my childhood, we experienced grief, loss, trauma. 346 00:20:53.481 --> 00:20:55.602 Again, no idea what those words meant back then. 347 00:20:55.662 --> 00:20:58.203 But all I knew was I didn't have a dad anymore. 348 00:20:58.710 --> 00:20:59.911 How did you find out? 349 00:20:59.951 --> 00:21:00.331 Do you remember? 350 00:21:00.351 --> 00:21:02.572 Do you have a memory of someone coming to tell you that? 351 00:21:02.812 --> 00:21:03.412 Yeah, I do. 352 00:21:03.432 --> 00:21:17.399 I actually was sleeping over at a cousin's house that night and I remember walking back to where I was staying and mum, my pop, and my brother were out the front and I remember seeing my brother crying and mum just walks up to me and she just said, your dad's passed away. 353 00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:21.301 And then we just embraced in a hug and was crying again. 354 00:21:21.341 --> 00:21:22.481 You know, I was 11 or 12 so... 355 00:21:24.402 --> 00:21:26.625 You don't really understand what's happening. 356 00:21:26.786 --> 00:21:28.868 All you just know is that your dad is not here anymore. 357 00:21:29.449 --> 00:21:33.635 Do you remember the last time you saw him before he passed away? 358 00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:37.841 I've actually never been asked that question, you know. 359 00:21:37.861 --> 00:21:37.961 Yeah. 360 00:21:39.431 --> 00:21:41.271 No, I don't know. 361 00:21:41.831 --> 00:21:50.573 The only thing that my mind goes back to was when we actually had a stint living with Dad and it was like time to go back to Mum's. 362 00:21:50.653 --> 00:21:58.875 So I remember being in the car driving away like waving at him, but I honestly can't remember if that was the last time that I saw him. 363 00:21:59.955 --> 00:22:01.355 You know, that's going on 17 years now. 364 00:22:01.375 --> 00:22:02.415 It's a long time ago, yeah. 365 00:22:02.455 --> 00:22:04.536 I've lived longer without my Dad than I have with him. 366 00:22:05.816 --> 00:22:06.496 Is that hard to say? 367 00:22:07.394 --> 00:22:08.995 Yeah, yeah, of course. 368 00:22:09.315 --> 00:22:09.816 Of course it is. 369 00:22:09.836 --> 00:22:18.321 You know, like even now, like learning of stories and trying to understand dad and his upbringing, like I just wish that I had more time with him. 370 00:22:19.061 --> 00:22:21.423 I wish that he could see me now. 371 00:22:21.723 --> 00:22:30.789 And I know when I got the call up to come play for Bombers that he would have been jumping with joy because he was a Mad Bomber supporter. 372 00:22:30.909 --> 00:22:32.750 Mad Bomber supporter, yeah. 373 00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:34.151 So that was kind of cool to... 374 00:22:36.152 --> 00:22:53.045 one, to do that for myself, but to also know that this was my dad's team, you know, and even though things were quite tough for us growing up and, you know, the things that I know now of my dad and I just, there's no grey area when it comes to the love that I have for my parents, you know, things were hard, but I think things were even harder for them. 375 00:22:53.826 --> 00:23:01.332 But it just allows me to have a greater understanding of society and how the world works and the struggles that my parents did face. 376 00:23:01.597 --> 00:23:08.063 It's so nice to hear that, that you'd like now as an adult, of course, you can look back and see the struggles that they clearly had. 377 00:23:08.603 --> 00:23:19.993 But at the time, as a kid, without the kind of life experience, and you know, we all know what it's like being a kid, it's like, it's very much all about you and about like your experience. 378 00:23:20.113 --> 00:23:23.116 What was your feelings towards them back then? 379

00:23:23.136 --> 00:23:23.236 Yeah. 380 00:23:23.674 --> 00:23:27.718 oh, I don't want to be anything like these people in my life. 381 00:23:27.758 --> 00:23:32.583 Like, no, like honestly, and I think a lot of people ask, you know, how did you get to where you are? 382 00:23:32.643 --> 00:23:34.145 And there's no magic potion, right? 383 00:23:34.165 --> 00:23:40.612 Like I love my family and I don't think that I'm better than anyone, none of that, but I knew what I didn't want to be like. 384 00:23:41.192 --> 00:23:43.453 And that's what has always stuck with me. 385 00:23:43.634 --> 00:23:46.876 You know, it's like I don't want to be someone who drinks. 386 00:23:46.916 --> 00:23:48.597 I don't want to be someone who takes drugs. 387 00:23:49.017 --> 00:23:53.580 I don't want to be someone who accepts, you know, this type of abuse. 388 00:23:54.020 --> 00:23:55.141 I just didn't want to be like that. 389 00:23:55.221 --> 00:23:57.862 And so I didn't know how I was going to get out of that. 390 00:23:58.262 --> 00:24:00.104 I just knew that that's what I didn't want. 391 00:24:00.124 --> 00:24:05.267 So everything that I did was like a step closer of moving away from that lifestyle. 392 00:24:05.287 --> 00:24:05.567 Mm-hmm. 393 00:24:06.207 --> 00:24:10.868 And when I talk about these things, it's not to bring shame to my family. 394 00:24:11.908 --> 00:24:12.408 It's not at all. 395 00:24:12.448 --> 00:24:21.290 It's just to talk about the real life things that we experience and face in our homes and our communities and that so many of us in society do, but we don't talk about it enough. 396 00:24:22.030 --> 00:24:23.491 I think it comes through in the way you talk. 397 00:24:23.631 --> 00:24:32.293 It's like beautiful the way that you're able to talk about the struggles that your parents are going through with so much respect for them and love. 398 00:24:32.533 --> 00:24:33.393 It really does come through. 399 00:24:33.953 --> 00:24:34.193 Yeah. 400 00:24:34.942 --> 00:24:37.564 And how about your mum, the relationship with your mum? 401 00:24:37.904 --> 00:24:51.074 That must be a – I'm thinking like to go through that together, to have things like jumping off, you know, apartment buildings together to escape, that must be a very close bond. 402 00:24:51.334 --> 00:24:52.175 Yeah. 403 00:24:53.096 --> 00:24:54.417 Gosh, when I think about my mum – 404 00:24:56.156 --> 00:24:59.779 We had that kind of best friend bond, right? 405 00:25:00.019 --> 00:25:05.843 And your very typical mother-daughter relationship, I feel like that wasn't necessarily us. 406 00:25:06.624 --> 00:25:17.331 We were so tight and so close that it was just like having like a big sister who was all of our best friends and so many challenges, you know, 407 00:25:18.443 --> 00:25:22.908 Throughout our childhood, mum was very open with us, like sharing a lot of these stories. 408 00:25:22.948 --> 00:25:28.454 And I think a lot of the things that she experienced, she openly

spoke about with my older sister. 409 00:25:29.074 --> 00:25:32.758 And we all have a different relationship with mum in our own way. 410 00:25:32.818 --> 00:25:36.182 And it's funny, I've actually got a text message that says I'm the favourite child. 411 00:25:36.202 --> 00:25:37.323 LAUGHTER 412 00:25:37.663 --> 00:25:38.524 And I have that. 413 00:25:38.544 --> 00:25:43.706 And she told me not to tell the others, but I do whip it out every now and again, which I know is obviously not true. 414 00:25:43.846 --> 00:25:48.308 But for so many years, I used to think that like I had this middle child syndrome. 415 00:25:48.889 --> 00:25:50.690 It was like she was always just picking on me. 416 00:25:50.710 --> 00:25:54.471 I remember one time she woke up in the morning and was like, Courtney, get to school, get to school. 417 00:25:54.492 --> 00:25:56.132 And I'm like, what about the other kids? 418 00:25:56.212 --> 00:25:59.014 Like, why are you just telling me to get to school? 419 00:25:59.634 --> 00:26:06.097 And so it may be cringy and a bit cliche now, but I feel like mum always saw something in me. 420 00:26:06.517 --> 00:26:16.081 You know, I must have always shown that I had this big loud mouth and, you know, could speak to anyone and wasn't shy when it came to a camera being out, right? 421 00:26:16.101 --> 00:26:24.265 So I feel like she may have always known that about me and maybe, you know, again, in a weird way getting me ready for what life was going to throw at me, right? 422 00:26:25.185 --> 00:26:28.507 But the love with my mum has no bounds. 423 00:26:28.688 --> 00:26:38.635 And I think now talking about it as an adult, you know, when parents are meant to love their kids unconditionally and it was exactly that with mum. 424 00:26:38.735 --> 00:26:40.216 It was unconditional love. 425 00:26:40.276 --> 00:26:48.682 And, you know, if she had the right resources and helps, I know that she wouldn't ever want to put her kids through what we went through. 426 00:26:49.903 --> 00:26:52.544 And I think now I can look at that and think she... 427 00:26:53.525 --> 00:27:09.974 has strength like someone like out of this world, like this strength that she embodied for so much of her life, like I'm in awe of what that woman, what she went through and what she overcame and still possessed that unconditional love for us kids. 428 00:27:11.956 --> 00:27:16.758 But, yeah, tragedy struck our family again when I was 19 years old when my mum was murdered. 429 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.261 And I remember that day so clearly because it was the worst day of my life. 430 00:27:22.421 --> 00:27:23.082 Oh, my God. 431 00:27:25.606 --> 00:27:28.331 I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that sentence before. 432 00:27:28.672 --> 00:27:33.721 That's a... You don't have to go back to that day if you don't want... That's okay. 433 00:27:33.781 --> 00:27:33.961 ... 434 00:27:35.654 --> 00:27:37.654 Do you remember what you were doing when you found out? 435 00:27:37.674 --> 00:27:38.415 Yep, yep. 436 00:27:38.975 --> 00:27:45.636 So to go back just a little bit, so when I'd graduated high school and all of us kids, we'd all moved to Perth. 437 00:27:45.736 --> 00:27:55.579 So we were all living, working, playing footy in Perth and mum was still in Bunbury and was still unfortunately experienced a lot of the hardships that she was going through but had called us and said, I want to... 438 00:27:56.099 --> 00:28:01.321 come to Perth, I want to move to Perth, I want to be present, I want to be back with my kids, with my grandkids, I want to come to footy games. 439 00:28:01.842 --> 00:28:10.485 And we were jumping for joy and we were like, yeah, we support this, we want you back just as much as you want to be back. 440 00:28:10.825 --> 00:28:16.128 And in the year of 2016 in January, mum made the move to Perth and it was... 441 00:28:17.057 --> 00:28:39.203 this version of mum that we got that we yearned for for for so long because to have her back in our lives coming to footy games having dinner with mum you know this version of mum where she was glowing she was so happy and she was clean and again the version we knew always existed and so it was great it was it was it was this time in our lives that I suppose we had just been waiting for for so long. 442 00:28:39.495 --> 00:28:41.437 And how old would have she been at this time? 443 00:28:41.457 --> 00:28:41.617 42. 444 00:28:41.637 --> 00:28:42.238 42. 445 00:28:42.438 --> 00:28:44.661 So that was in January of 2016 that she moved. 446 00:28:44.681 --> 00:28:45.642 And on March 9th, 2016... 447 00:28:50.435 --> 00:28:51.535 It was a Wednesday. 448 00:28:52.456 --> 00:28:58.558 I remember ringing mum that morning on the way to work because she had, she'd owed me $20 and I wanted my $20 back. 449 00:28:59.499 --> 00:29:01.079 And she didn't answer, I didn't think anything of it. 450 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:04.781 So I knew I had a meeting on that side of town later that day. 451 00:29:04.821 --> 00:29:06.121 So I was like, I'll just go and see her then. 452 00:29:06.881 --> 00:29:12.604 So I'm driving to this meeting and I drive past Swan District Footy Club, which was my footy club, but my little sister was working there. 453 00:29:12.624 --> 00:29:15.825 And I thought, I better just make sure she's got a feed, like she's all right. 454 00:29:16.565 --> 00:29:19.227 Anyway, we're sitting talking, my phone starts to ring and it's my brother. 455 00:29:19.427 --> 00:29:22.229 And I said out loud, I was like, oh, my brother never calls me throughout the day. 456 00:29:22.509 --> 00:29:23.310 Like, wonder what's wrong. 457 00:29:24.010 --> 00:29:28.073 Answered it and he just said, something has happened at mum's house, you need to get there now. 458 00:29:28.713 --> 00:29:32.395 And so I screamed for my sister, because you know gut feelings, right? 459 00:29:32.516 --> 00:29:33.036 We all have them. 460 00:29:33.216 --> 00:29:37.059 Something was just

saying, this is not good. 461 00:29:37.639 --> 00:29:43.263 And so we drive to mum's house and I get there and there's police and ambulance everywhere and... 462 00:29:43.903 --> 00:29:47.765 a different man that mum had been on and off with for years was at the front. 463 00:29:48.786 --> 00:29:52.127 And I screamed, I said, what the fuck did you do? 464 00:29:52.327 --> 00:29:53.228 What did you do to mum? 465 00:29:53.268 --> 00:29:54.148 What did you do to her? 466 00:29:55.689 --> 00:30:02.613 And I go to run inside to go find her and the paramedics pushed me out and my little sister and I watched our mum's body come out on a stretcher. 467 00:30:03.717 --> 00:30:08.201 And at that moment, we still didn't know the severity of the situation. 468 00:30:09.382 --> 00:30:10.503 We just knew it was really bad. 469 00:30:10.643 --> 00:30:16.107 And the paramedics said to me, like, you need to calm down because you need to drive behind us because we need to go to the hospital. 470 00:30:17.628 --> 00:30:24.074 And I don't know what possessed me to do this, but I still managed to call the school to tell them that I couldn't come to this meeting. 471 00:30:24.094 --> 00:30:24.494 Yeah. 472 00:30:25.466 --> 00:30:41.467 good manners, I suppose, but we get in the car and my little sister, who's 16 at the time, is next to me and I have no words because I don't know what we were going to go and see and hear. 473 00:30:41.487 --> 00:30:42.228 I had no idea. 474 00:30:42.748 --> 00:30:44.709 And I'm not a religious person, but I was praying. 475 00:30:44.749 --> 00:30:49.310 I was praying to something like, please, please, please don't let this be what we think this could be. 476 00:30:49.350 --> 00:30:51.631 Like she's always, she's been in this situation. 477 00:30:51.651 --> 00:30:52.451 She's always come out. 478 00:30:52.471 --> 00:30:56.432 Like she's been in hospital before because men have abused her, but she's always come home to us. 479 00:30:57.513 --> 00:31:03.894 And that drive behind the ambulance was the most eerie, unsettling feeling because you just have no idea. 480 00:31:04.315 --> 00:31:08.536 You're creating all these different scenarios in your head, but you don't, you don't know anything just yet. 481 00:31:09.700 --> 00:31:12.261 We get to the hospital and they put us in a room. 482 00:31:13.081 --> 00:31:17.562 My siblings, other siblings start to rock up, family start to come and I'll never forget the nurse that came in. 483 00:31:18.663 --> 00:31:25.325 She was shaking and she had tears rolling down her face and she had said the paramedics did everything that they could but your mum has passed away. 484 00:31:29.106 --> 00:31:30.746 Later that night he was charged with her murder. 485 00:31:33.907 --> 00:31:36.268 So, sorry, how old were you at that point? 486 00:31:36.328 --> 00:31:36.448 19. 487 00:31:38.568 --> 00:31:41.819 Oh, that's just, it's beyond words really, isn't it? 488 00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:42.823 That's horrible.

489 00:31:43.462 --> 00:31:47.883 It's so interesting because when people say, well, like what happened next? 490 00:31:47.903 --> 00:31:57.566 Like I don't know because so much of what came next was such a blur like to me and learning about how we as humans can disassociate ourselves. 491 00:31:58.386 --> 00:32:04.528 Obviously we don't mean to do it but for so long after that period of my life, like I feel like I didn't even exist. 492 00:32:04.568 --> 00:32:12.150 I didn't even know what I was doing or I don't remember a lot because I just like as a 19-year-old, where do you go from there? 493 00:32:12.390 --> 00:32:12.670 Mm-hmm. 494 00:32:13.290 --> 00:32:15.171 Like what do you do with that? 495 00:32:16.171 --> 00:32:17.352 And so we didn't come from money, right? 496 00:32:17.372 --> 00:32:21.274 We didn't inherit any money from mum or dad, anything. 497 00:32:21.334 --> 00:32:24.735 So trying to put a funeral on for our mum was extremely hard. 498 00:32:24.795 --> 00:32:29.337 Like four kids under the age of 25, no one had any savings, no one had anything. 499 00:32:29.865 --> 00:32:45.430 a safety net and our footy club, Swan District Footy Club at the time, started a GoFundMe page and people from our community, complete strangers, were the ones that, you know, showed us so much kindness and compassion and love in the worst times of our lives just so we could put a funeral on for our mum. 500 00:32:46.511 --> 00:32:50.052 Thank you for, like, I just can't believe you're able to share that story with us. 501 00:32:50.092 --> 00:32:52.093 It's so incredible you can do that. 502 00:32:52.113 --> 00:32:55.214 So thank you because I know that I can't even begin to imagine how hard that is. 503 00:32:56.612 --> 00:33:06.618 Is there a memory of like the feeling you have, whether it's in a hospital or when you go home that night of like, do you remember the overriding emotion or the primary emotion that you had at that time? 504 00:33:07.122 --> 00:33:12.264 This is a good question because I vividly remember this as well. 505 00:33:12.344 --> 00:33:18.407 So where I was living at the time was in a suburb called Ellenbrook and my brother was living just maybe 10 minutes down the road. 506 00:33:19.188 --> 00:33:28.412 And I don't think I slept that night but I remember driving back to my brother's house that morning and I was driving and I was screaming in the car by myself, like screaming like... 507 00:33:29.127 --> 00:33:29.607 Why? 508 00:33:29.707 --> 00:33:30.027 No. 509 00:33:30.087 --> 00:33:30.668 Like, why? 510 00:33:30.728 --> 00:33:31.808 Why has this happened? 511 00:33:32.188 --> 00:33:38.631 Like, punching my steering wheel and just, like, screaming hysterically by myself in the car. 512 00:33:39.312 --> 00:33:41.453 Oh, yeah, that's... 513 00:33:43.293 --> 00:33:46.335 I feel like I haven't screamed like that since that day. 514 00:33:48.056 --> 00:33:52.898 But I just remember, like, just screaming so loud and just asking why,

why, why. 515 00:33:54.585 --> 00:33:57.547 And I still feel that same, I feel that pain today. 516 00:33:57.568 --> 00:33:59.369 I just don't scream. 517 00:33:59.389 --> 00:34:04.553 How old are you now? 518 00:34:04.633 --> 00:34:06.975 I am 28. 519 00:34:07.216 --> 00:34:10.759 The yelling in the car, just so angry. 520 00:34:11.299 --> 00:34:14.321 And then the fact that you haven't yelled like that in nine years. 521 00:34:15.342 --> 00:34:19.386 Because what do you think that that is? 522 00:34:20.269 --> 00:34:39.643 Like I don't want to say I bottle things up because I talk very openly about this, you know, but I was someone that for a long time didn't feel like I needed some kind of professional help because footy was the escape, was, you know, a place where I felt normal and it was safe and I could be okay navigating my reality. 523 00:34:39.763 --> 00:34:45.127 And I think as I've gotten older, I have really honed in on that, that grief and joy can coexist, right? 524 00:34:45.167 --> 00:34:47.229 And it's been nine years since I've lost my mum and, 525 00:34:47.929 --> 00:34:53.132 I still feel like I've got so much healing to go because I was stuck in the survival mode, right? 526 00:34:53.152 --> 00:34:57.795 It was like, all right, well, I'm still, I'm still bent on that, not wanting to be my lifestyle. 527 00:34:58.576 --> 00:35:02.058 And I did make a decision that I wasn't going to let this define me in a negative way. 528 00:35:02.638 --> 00:35:05.880 And so there's probably a bit of avoidance along the years as well. 529 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:07.361 Just being like, no, like this is okay. 530 00:35:07.381 --> 00:35:11.284 Like, obviously I can't change what's happened, but I still want a life to live. 531 00:35:11.444 --> 00:35:12.965 And I probably, um, yeah. 532 00:35:13.705 --> 00:35:25.092 hadn't allowed myself to really grieve and mourn the loss of my mum because I was pretty determined that it wasn't going to define me in a negative way. 533 00:35:25.629 --> 00:35:28.350 It was like you had this sense of I'm going to keep moving forward, keep moving forward. 534 00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:28.790 Yeah. 535 00:35:29.270 --> 00:35:30.371 Which is so understandable. 536 00:35:30.551 --> 00:35:31.791 I completely understand that. 537 00:35:32.671 --> 00:35:38.913 Do you remember after it happened, were there conversations that you had with your siblings? 538 00:35:38.993 --> 00:35:43.455 Did you, were there memorable moments you had with your siblings in the coming days? 539 00:35:44.375 --> 00:35:44.635 Yeah. 540 00:35:44.675 --> 00:35:52.098 I mean, we talk a lot about mum now and like I said, like this is something that, 541 00:35:53.555 --> 00:36:06.023 I consciously promised myself, right, and I don't want to say that everybody in my family looked at this situation the way I did, but I knew that if I didn't do it this way, I wouldn't be here with you guys today. 542 00:36:06.443 --> 00:36:07.143 Like I know that. 543 00:36:08.764 --> 00:36:10.886 And some people understand this and some people won't, but... 544 00:36:11.726 --> 00:36:17.769 I don't hate this man who killed my mum because hating him is not going to bring her back. 545 00:36:18.410 --> 00:36:20.070 It's just not. 546 00:36:20.991 --> 00:36:30.276 You know, people don't understand that because he also pleaded not guilty and so we went to a trial process like 18 months later and I had to give evidence in my mum's murder trial. 547 00:36:30.896 --> 00:36:32.797 Like saying that out loud, I still... 548 00:36:34.758 --> 00:36:42.644 I still can't believe that that's what happened to us because that's the kind of stuff you see on TV, right, like on crime shows, on Netflix. 549 00:36:42.844 --> 00:36:48.268 You don't think that that can happen to you but that was our reality and that's what we went through. 550 00:36:49.068 --> 00:36:57.795 But after that, that's when I made that decision that I wasn't going to let it define me in a negative way and I made that decision that I wasn't going to let him take anything more from me. 551 00:36:58.375 --> 00:37:03.379 And so I don't hate him because that's just going to take my soul, my energy, my spirit away. 552 00:37:03.980 --> 00:37:05.660 And it's just it's not going to bring my mum back. 553 00:37:05.761 --> 00:37:09.682 He is where he needs to be because he was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. 554 00:37:10.402 --> 00:37:13.143 And I have a life that I want to live. 555 00:37:14.283 --> 00:37:14.983 That's extraordinary. 556 00:37:15.283 --> 00:37:16.123 It is extraordinary. 557 00:37:16.264 --> 00:37:17.044 Truly extraordinary. 558 00:37:17.984 --> 00:37:20.545 Your mum would be so unbelievably proud. 559 00:37:21.145 --> 00:37:21.465 Thank you. 560 00:37:21.485 --> 00:37:21.965 I hope so. 561 00:37:22.565 --> 00:37:22.845 Yeah. 562 00:37:23.806 --> 00:37:31.708 Before you beautifully said that you're not religious but you're praying to a higher power in the car, what was it? 563 00:37:32.802 --> 00:37:40.467 Honestly, I don't know, but I've always believed, you know, that there is a world beyond us here. 564 00:37:40.647 --> 00:37:43.068 And, you know, being Aboriginal people, we are very spiritual. 565 00:37:43.088 --> 00:37:46.210 We're very connected to the land, to the dream time, to our dreaming. 566 00:37:46.971 --> 00:37:48.692 And so I suppose it was, you know... 567 00:37:49.745 --> 00:37:53.287 calling out to my, to my people, to my old people, to my ancestors. 568 00:37:53.807 --> 00:38:02.931 But that's just us as, as, you know, a culture, we are, we are very connected to this land that, that we come from, you know, we, we come from our mother and when we go, we go back to our mother. 569 00:38:03.131 --> 00:38:11.736 And so I suppose I was just screaming out to my old people and to try to gain some understanding of like what was happening and why this was happening and to, and to help me. 570 00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:20.186

When you're driving past where your sister worked and you thought, I'll just check to see if she's got a feed, I think you said. 571 00:38:20.226 --> 00:38:20.446 Yeah. 572 00:38:21.788 --> 00:38:26.852 You obviously care so much for your sister and to look out for her. 573 00:38:27.613 --> 00:38:32.117 Did you think about your sister when you were told what had happened to your mum? 574 00:38:33.153 --> 00:38:44.917 Yeah, I mean my younger sister and I navigated through so much hurt and trauma and really just crazy times of like wondering where our next feed was going to come from, right? 575 00:38:44.937 --> 00:38:54.020 So we were really close growing up but the relationship we have now is so powerful. 576 00:38:54.060 --> 00:38:57.721 Like I wouldn't be here if it weren't for that bond that I have with them. 577 00:38:58.801 --> 00:38:59.822 But everything I did was... 578 00:39:00.862 --> 00:39:04.086 I thought about Madison in that I'm going to get emotional. 579 00:39:08.787 --> 00:39:13.708 So before this happened, right, so going back to Madison's 16th birthday, I was living in Perth. 580 00:39:13.748 --> 00:39:15.488 Madison was still there at the time and I drove down. 581 00:39:15.508 --> 00:39:24.890 We had this big party at the house and mum was in a state that we just had never seen, you know, before and it was horrible. 582 00:39:24.910 --> 00:39:25.790 It was really scary. 583 00:39:26.870 --> 00:39:32.271 And I remember that next morning when I was ready to go back to Perth, I said to Maddie, I can't leave you here. 584 00:39:32.411 --> 00:39:33.692 I can't leave you here. 585 00:39:33.732 --> 00:39:34.452 This is not right. 586 00:39:34.472 --> 00:39:35.052 Yeah. 587 00:39:35.292 --> 00:39:42.015 And at that time I was actually living in my friend's storage unit that I created into a bedroom. 588 00:39:43.295 --> 00:39:47.257 And I had no idea what we were going to do, but I just said, mate, pack some things because you're coming with me. 589 00:39:48.017 --> 00:39:52.259 And she came and stayed with me in Perth in our storage unit. 590 00:39:53.759 --> 00:40:02.225 for some time until some adults kind of stepped in and said, like, we need to kind of give you some help and offer you some support. 591 00:40:02.265 --> 00:40:09.410 And we all have our own little families who kind of took us in for periods of time, right, and who we are extremely close with and are very much our family. 592 00:40:10.910 --> 00:40:22.418 But going back to the question about my sister, she was the first thought of everything that I did, even after we lost mum and moving to Melbourne. 593 00:40:22.438 --> 00:40:22.538 Yeah. 594 00:40:23.952 --> 00:40:29.873 Yeah, it was like so selfish of me to do because all I was thinking about was like, I'm going to leave my little sister. 595 00:40:30.394 --> 00:40:31.454 Like, what is she going to do? 596 00:40:32.974 --> 00:40:36.215 But I knew I had to do this not only for me, but like for them and for her. 597 00:40:37.435 --> 00:40:43.437 And she is someone who has suffered a great amount. 598 00:40:44.417 --> 00:40:47.638 And she doesn't speak about it a lot because she never wants people to... 599 00:40:48.897 --> 00:40:49.918 I feel sorry for her. 600 00:40:50.018 --> 00:40:59.864 She's never been one to play victim, but the strength that she has, she's a mother now, and watching her be a mother has been the greatest thing to witness. 601 00:40:59.884 --> 00:41:01.325 Like she is the best mum. 602 00:41:01.966 --> 00:41:12.213 And I've often said to her, I was like, I wish you were my mum, you know, like watching you the way that you are with her baby, who I call my son too, is... 603 00:41:13.093 --> 00:41:28.987 again just shows me that the love that mum had for all of us comes out and it's shown in the way that she loves her boy and it's been the greatest thing to witness because she's overcome some really dark, scary times and I couldn't be more proud of her. 604 00:41:29.748 --> 00:41:30.868 She sounds amazing. 605 00:41:31.369 --> 00:41:31.929 She's unreal. 606 00:41:32.070 --> 00:41:32.470 She is. 607 00:41:33.190 --> 00:41:39.256 And my sister too, my older sister Sky, our rock, back then and today, like, 608 00:41:42.465 --> 00:41:45.047 These women are like my backbone. 609 00:41:45.227 --> 00:41:45.847 Like they are. 610 00:41:47.048 --> 00:41:49.889 I wouldn't be here for my sisters. 611 00:41:50.129 --> 00:41:52.631 They are quite literally the backbone of me. 612 00:41:52.731 --> 00:41:52.911 The... 613 00:41:56.998 --> 00:42:02.140 The why, it's incredibly powerful, that image of you in the car. 614 00:42:03.141 --> 00:42:07.502 I'm struck by the way you were talking about your mum in the months before she was murdered. 615 00:42:08.383 --> 00:42:16.646 This glowing woman who was living the best version of her life and that you got those months together. 616 00:42:17.346 --> 00:42:24.529 Is part of the why because you felt like you were potentially past this risk happening? 617 00:42:26.278 --> 00:42:35.082 Yeah, I mean, like the why, it just seemed for so much of our lives, it was like this red tape, there was always something, you know. 618 00:42:35.102 --> 00:42:39.384 It wasn't necessarily like normal for us to sit down and have a family dinner together. 619 00:42:39.404 --> 00:42:42.466 That just wasn't how things were, the way we grew up, right? 620 00:42:42.506 --> 00:42:51.290 And so for mum to leave everything that she'd done and known and make this big scary choice to want a better life 621 00:42:52.050 --> 00:42:54.392 her life and have that relationship back with her kids. 622 00:42:54.412 --> 00:43:02.917 Like we were so proud of her and it was like, oh, my God, this is what we've always wanted, you know, and seeing mum for those, you know, two and a bit months. 623 00:43:03.498 --> 00:43:11.463 I remember she was volunteering down at the Salvos and I went down to see her and she grabbed my hand and she was

introducing me to everyone. 624 00:43:11.483 --> 00:43:12.864 She was like, this is my footy star. 625 00:43:13.604 --> 00:43:14.045 Sorry. 626 00:43:18.608 --> 00:43:18.768 Yeah. 627 00:43:20.738 --> 00:43:23.600 like just how proud she was of all of her kids. 628 00:43:23.720 --> 00:43:28.702 Like she was so proud and she'd always say like, I must have done something right because I've got four beautiful kids. 629 00:43:28.762 --> 00:43:30.563 She'd call us like an awesome foursome. 630 00:43:31.664 --> 00:43:38.488 And then to see her with her grandkids, with my brother's kids, you know, like that was, they were just the light of her life. 631 00:43:38.768 --> 00:43:40.049 And so to see her... 632 00:43:41.315 --> 00:43:48.241 make these changes with essentially everything against her, we couldn't have been more proud for that to only then be taken away. 633 00:43:48.681 --> 00:43:55.567 And this man that she'd been on and off with for years, like he was, he'd only come back and lived in the house with mum for two weeks. 634 00:43:56.728 --> 00:44:00.531 So two weeks was kind of all it took, you know? 635 00:44:00.551 --> 00:44:08.998 Well, you talk about how proud she was of you, but it sounds like that pride is matched. 636 00:44:09.770 --> 00:44:10.710 Yeah, yeah. 637 00:44:10.810 --> 00:44:19.393 And again, you know, hindsight and you wish I could have said this and that, but like I wish that I had said that more often to her. 638 00:44:20.013 --> 00:44:30.137 And I try not to get stuck in that, you know, those things because I was a young kid, you know, experiencing a lot of those things and I don't want to disregard my feelings as a young child. 639 00:44:31.217 --> 00:44:36.439 But when I think about who I've become today, so much of that is because of my mum. 640 00:44:36.459 --> 00:44:36.599 Mm-hmm. 641 00:44:37.499 --> 00:44:42.165 Um, she was our, our biggest supporter, our biggest cheerleader. 642 00:44:43.206 --> 00:44:44.448 The love had no bounds. 643 00:44:44.508 --> 00:44:49.234 And I often reflect now and just think like, I'm so lucky that she was my mum. 644 00:44:49.254 --> 00:44:49.514 Mm-hmm. 645 00:44:50.652 --> 00:44:51.032 Yeah. 646 00:44:51.052 --> 00:44:51.312 Yeah. 647 00:44:51.932 --> 00:44:52.573 Beautifully said. 648 00:44:53.353 --> 00:45:17.740 When you, the logistics of the funeral and all and that first step sounds unimaginably hard, but I also imagine once that's passed and that part of the grieving process, for want of a better term, has happened, how do you begin to live a life without mum? 649 00:45:19.730 --> 00:45:21.391 I still ask myself that today. 650 00:45:21.811 --> 00:45:30.454 You know, it was just her anniversary a couple of days ago and I think like how have I lived this life without her? 651 00:45:30.514 --> 00:45:38.737 And there's so many things that I have now and it's not about materialistic things but growing up, you know, you'd wish someone would come and save you, you wish you had this, you wish you had that. 652 00:45:39.557 --> 00:45:42.959 You don't realise that the person coming to save you is you as an adult. 653 00:45:42.979 --> 00:45:43.539 Right. 654 00:45:45.516 --> 00:45:54.240 and so many things that I haven't, like the fact that I could go to Coles and fill a trolley full of food and not worry about who was going to pay for that. 655 00:45:54.260 --> 00:45:56.801 Like I wish I could have experienced that with mum. 656 00:45:57.121 --> 00:46:01.383 You know, like we used to steal food from Coles just so we could have lunch or dinner. 657 00:46:03.144 --> 00:46:04.585 We had no power on at times, right? 658 00:46:04.605 --> 00:46:11.148 So these things that were horrible to experience and go through as young kids, I don't live that life anymore. 659 00:46:12.367 --> 00:46:18.011 And I wish that mum got to experience this life now that I get to live. 660 00:46:18.352 --> 00:46:18.572 Yeah. 661 00:46:19.613 --> 00:46:23.776 Are there moments that happen for you where you go, I wish mum was here for this right now? 662 00:46:23.816 --> 00:46:29.520 What are the... Every, like everything, even this podcast, like I would have loved to have told her about this. 663 00:46:29.580 --> 00:46:32.482 You know, we think about the big things, right? 664 00:46:32.542 --> 00:46:35.965 Our birthdays, you know, footy games, things like that. 665 00:46:36.345 --> 00:46:37.366 But it's the little things. 666 00:46:37.446 --> 00:46:38.247 It's like the... 667 00:46:38.827 --> 00:46:47.654 the minor inconvenience that may happen to you and you just want to bitch to your mum or you just want, you know, some kind of reassurance like, mum, where were we when we were five years old? 668 00:46:47.694 --> 00:46:50.036 Like what happened here or what was I like as a kid? 669 00:46:50.076 --> 00:46:55.040 It's like all of those little things, they're the things that I miss. 670 00:46:55.060 --> 00:46:59.843 If I want to have a bitch about one of my siblings, I can't call it, you know. 671 00:47:00.524 --> 00:47:04.547 It's in the little moments that I miss mum the most. 672 00:47:05.098 --> 00:47:10.959 There's something – what you said before about the adult version of yourself, saving yourself, is so profound. 673 00:47:12.100 --> 00:47:13.680 This question might make no sense. 674 00:47:14.180 --> 00:47:19.742 But how does the adult Courtney save the child, adolescent Courtney? 675 00:47:21.842 --> 00:47:22.822 Well, it's funny. 676 00:47:23.663 --> 00:47:25.323 There's this – and this is not to – 677 00:47:26.782 --> 00:47:29.944 big note or anything, but there's this mural of me in Perth. 678 00:47:30.164 --> 00:47:36.027 And I remember when it first came about, I was like, the lady who reached out, she didn't really have many followers on Instagram. 679 00:47:36.087 --> 00:47:37.107 And I'm thinking, this is a joke. 680 00:47:37.147 --> 00:47:40.929 Like, why would she want to paint this picture of me? 681 00:47:42.170 --> 00:47:43.650

Anyway, she started to send me updates. 682 00:47:43.690 --> 00:47:45.191 I'm like, oh my gosh, she's so serious. 683 00:47:45.231 --> 00:47:48.152 Like she is, she's doing this big mural of me. 684 00:47:48.353 --> 00:47:48.433 And 685 00:47:49.333 --> 00:47:51.595 When I look at that mural, like I don't see me. 686 00:47:51.956 --> 00:47:55.739 That mural represents strength and resilience found on the other side of adversity. 687 00:47:55.779 --> 00:47:59.983 But when I go home and I go there, I don't see me as the adult. 688 00:48:00.003 --> 00:48:00.804 I see the little girl. 689 00:48:01.624 --> 00:48:07.009 And she is clapping and cheering for me because she just always knew that I was going to come back and save her. 690 00:48:07.770 --> 00:48:17.472 And when I think about saving her, it's allowing space and a safety net to feel all those feelings that I did as a kid that were just dismissed. 691 00:48:18.132 --> 00:48:21.912 So just going back and allowing her to feel and acknowledge those things. 692 00:48:22.393 --> 00:48:23.773 Because we didn't talk about feelings. 693 00:48:23.793 --> 00:48:25.953 We didn't acknowledge that stuff kind of growing up. 694 00:48:26.913 --> 00:48:28.073 I also didn't understand it. 695 00:48:30.134 --> 00:48:36.335 But I look after her now and I want to allow space for her because... 696 00:48:37.610 --> 00:48:40.517 She was just stuck in survival mode for so long. 697 00:48:41.640 --> 00:48:46.312 That's incredible and so pertinent to the work you're doing now. 698 00:48:47.816 --> 00:48:49.757 I feel like this work is beyond me. 699 00:48:49.957 --> 00:48:57.698 It's about the ability that we have to be kind, compassion and hold space, you know, to love and nurture people. 700 00:48:57.778 --> 00:49:04.360 We have that ability as humans and that little girl missed out on some of that. 701 00:49:04.780 --> 00:49:16.063 And honestly, I think I just hold that little Courtney so tight and like tell her like you're going to be okay, it's going to be okay 702 00:49:17.722 --> 00:49:32.788 when you're so young and you're experiencing, you know, a lot of hurt and trauma and you're in situations that you wouldn't want anyone to be in but you kind of have this view that the world is just cruel and nasty and horrible and life's not fair. 703 00:49:34.048 --> 00:49:36.109 So I hold space for her. 704 00:49:36.949 --> 00:49:38.290 It's like she's like standing next to me. 705 00:49:38.310 --> 00:49:42.551 It's so weird, like little Courtney next to me and she's just like, I knew you were going to come back for me. 706 00:49:43.112 --> 00:49:43.552 And so... 707 00:49:44.846 --> 00:49:50.893 Yeah, that gives me strength because that little Courtney, I don't know, she must have just always known that I was going to come back and do this work. 708 00:49:50.953 --> 00:50:00.285 And it's honestly just to acknowledge that pain and suffering that she had, that she was never really allowed to express or didn't know how to

express growing up. 709 00:50:00.705 --> 00:50:02.808 Yeah, she's like my little shorty. 710 00:50:05.010 --> 00:50:11.372 I don't know if you're able to hear yourself today and like hear what you're saying, but do you feel proud of yourself? 711 00:50:11.552 --> 00:50:13.592 No, sorry, I'll ask you a more direct question. 712 00:50:13.612 --> 00:50:14.852 Do you love yourself? 713 00:50:14.912 --> 00:50:19.393 Like when you look back on it and you go, gosh, I love so much love for myself. 714 00:50:19.834 --> 00:50:20.814 Yeah, absolutely. 715 00:50:21.334 --> 00:50:22.814 Now, for sure. 716 00:50:23.955 --> 00:50:25.955 In the mix of it, probably not. 717 00:50:26.715 --> 00:50:31.356 But it's only now that I can sit down and really look at the way 718 00:50:35.002 --> 00:50:50.130 navigate life without mum and dad and to learn that grief and joy can coexist and to learn to, you know, shift away from the feeling guilty of living life because it's like, how can I live life without my parents? 719 00:50:50.170 --> 00:50:51.851 How can I still enjoy these things? 720 00:50:51.891 --> 00:50:59.435 But like I said, they are alive in me and I know that they wouldn't want me to play victim. 721 00:50:59.455 --> 00:51:00.535 Like, I don't think I'm a victim. 722 00:51:00.735 --> 00:51:03.557 I feel like I am one of the luckiest people out there because 723 00:51:05.057 --> 00:51:12.623 The way that I can see the world obviously is that very much glass half full mentality and I didn't just come up with this on my own. 724 00:51:12.643 --> 00:51:18.547 Like this took some time to get to where I am because if it was easy, we all would look at life with a glass half full. 725 00:51:19.228 --> 00:51:22.971 We would all be able to overcome, you know, the challenges that we face. 726 00:51:23.531 --> 00:51:33.439 It is hard but it's not impossible and that's just what I want to show the world that we aren't what has happened to us and we do have the inherent ability to change the course of our lives if we want to. 727 00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:41.208 You know, especially in my community, we talk a lot about the international trauma that has been passed down and that lives within us, which is true. 728 00:51:41.228 --> 00:51:43.611 But so does strength and resilience. 729 00:51:43.631 --> 00:51:47.777 You know, we belong to the longest living culture in the world. 730 00:51:48.397 --> 00:51:50.560 And so I hone in more on that side. 731 00:51:50.580 --> 00:51:51.221 Mm-hmm. 732 00:51:51.361 --> 00:52:02.207 I think as an adult I can see all of those battles that, you know, a lot of my family tried to fight but didn't win and could have been a lack of resources, understanding, education, knowledge. 733 00:52:03.467 --> 00:52:06.929 But me as an adult now, I can see that. 734 00:52:07.069 --> 00:52:11.171 And that's why I'm working so hard to really try and break this cycle. 735 00:52:11.351 --> 00:52:14.833 You know, I often say like trauma ran in my family until

it ran into me. 736 00:52:16.094 --> 00:52:16.374 Wow. 737 00:52:16.754 --> 00:52:18.435 And so... That's good advice. 738 00:52:18.776 --> 00:52:26.198 This work is all for my future kids, all my nieces and nephews, my wider family because I just... 739 00:52:27.667 --> 00:52:30.889 we're not meant to experience this type of trauma. 740 00:52:31.289 --> 00:52:36.971 But when it's what you've known and you also don't know how to get better, you just accept that, right? 741 00:52:37.011 --> 00:52:46.956 But I'm here to try and shift that narrative and to show my people that we aren't what has happened to us and we can and we do have the ability to change the course of our lives. 742 00:52:47.456 --> 00:52:51.058 Because trauma, what I've learned, is not the actual event that happens. 743 00:52:51.518 --> 00:52:52.779 It's what happens inside of you. 744 00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:54.559 That's what trauma is. 745 00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:58.800 And the only good thing about trauma is that you can heal it at any time. 746 00:52:59.380 --> 00:53:00.100 It's hard. 747 00:53:00.740 --> 00:53:01.661 It's exhausting. 748 00:53:01.761 --> 00:53:04.541 It's uncomfortable, but it's not impossible. 749 00:53:05.521 --> 00:53:11.082 And, yeah, I look back and it's hard for me to say out loud, but I am proud of myself. 750 00:53:12.523 --> 00:53:16.203 And I'm sure your mum would be incredibly proud as well. 751 00:53:17.003 --> 00:53:19.664 Do you still feel a connection with her? 752 00:53:21.248 --> 00:53:29.430 It's funny because when we had to tidy mum's house up after everything kind of settled down, I remember walking in and there was $20 on the bench and she owed me $20. 753 00:53:29.630 --> 00:53:32.010 Remember I rang her that morning for $20. 754 00:53:32.430 --> 00:53:33.911 And so I pocketed that, right? 755 00:53:34.911 --> 00:53:43.853 But what was also left behind was this handwritten quote by mum and it reads, sometimes when things are falling apart, they may actually be falling into place. 756 00:53:44.797 --> 00:53:45.918 Oh, my God. 757 00:53:45.958 --> 00:53:46.238 Wow. 758 00:53:46.338 --> 00:53:46.618 Hang on. 759 00:53:46.638 --> 00:53:48.158 That was just written somewhere. 760 00:53:48.539 --> 00:53:52.820 That was mum's handwriting written and left in the house. 761 00:53:53.821 --> 00:53:59.563 And so I've got – my older sister has the physical copy of it, but I've got photos of it. 762 00:54:01.564 --> 00:54:07.026 And so when I think the world is against me, I don't know, I just refer back to that and think, no, this is teaching me something. 763 00:54:07.046 --> 00:54:11.468 It might be a bit uncomfortable right now, but there's a lesson in what's happening right now. 764 00:54:12.369 --> 00:54:12.690 Wow. 765 00:54:13.030 --> 00:54:18.299 Like I've even got it tattooed on me just because it's a nice, just a reminder from mum that like I will be okay. 766 00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:19.141 I will be okay. 767 00:54:20.678 --> 00:54:43.255

When you say you've done a lot or to get there, and I cannot even begin to imagine the things you've done, but I would love to hear if there are things or people or actions or moments along the way that come to mind that have allowed you to get to this point of incredible resilience and perspective and hope. 768 00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:45.779 Definitely the people. 769 00:54:45.839 --> 00:54:46.900 It's the people that I've met. 770 00:54:46.940 --> 00:54:53.043 You know, there's a person that comes to mind when you ask that question and it was my first coach at Bombers, Brendan Major. 771 00:54:53.643 --> 00:54:55.584 He is a neuroscientist. 772 00:54:55.885 --> 00:54:57.145 I'm pretty sure that's his title. 773 00:54:57.465 --> 00:54:58.746 Very smart, knows a lot about the brain. 774 00:55:00.027 --> 00:55:10.773 But it wasn't until that I started to create a relationship with him and a connection with him that I then kind of led him in to what my life was like that he was kind of... 775 00:55:11.673 --> 00:55:33.029 mortified in a sense it was like oh my god you go through this you experience this and so then to also have someone on the other side help me navigate the things that I was experiencing that I was feeling helping me kind of unpack what trauma does to us you know in our nervous system and he really opened my eyes up to me realizing that like 776 00:55:34.610 --> 00:55:52.167 there's nothing wrong with me and I was just dealing and carrying so much heaviness and grief and trauma that he probably was the one who kick-started the idea of like you could probably really benefit from talking with someone to help understand what you're feeling, what you've gone through, what you're going through. 777 00:55:53.008 --> 00:55:57.731 He hasn't been my coach for a couple of years now, but we still speak weekly and I'm so thankful for him. 778 00:55:57.771 --> 00:55:59.593 But he's only one little speckle. 779 00:55:59.653 --> 00:56:10.240 You know, there are so many other people that have been so influential and had such an impact on my life that have helped me navigate this world. 780 00:56:11.749 --> 00:56:15.212 I've always said that all coaches should be neuroscientists. 781 00:56:15.252 --> 00:56:19.296 I feel like that's really such a helpful trait as a coach. 782 00:56:21.958 --> 00:56:36.190 I imagine for myself, if I'd experienced what you'd experienced, especially thinking about some of these men that were in your life as a child, it would be really hard to see goodness in people. 783 00:56:37.820 --> 00:56:41.363 has that been a challenger and what does it mean? 784 00:56:41.823 --> 00:56:46.526 What does the phrase like or the goodness or the kindness or what does that mean to you when you think about that? 785 00:56:46.846 --> 00:56:47.107 Yeah. 786 00:56:47.127 --> 00:56:47.727 In people. 787 00:56:48.227 --> 00:56:55.633 Probably some of my closest people would say that this is to my detriment, but I really do try to see the good

in everyone and, um, 788 00:56:56.433 --> 00:57:07.580 What that has meant for me is getting hurt a few times before I realise, okay, I can't accept this kind of behaviour anymore. 789 00:57:07.660 --> 00:57:16.745 But that's after, you know, giving these people that have showed me, you know, some kind of negativity or quite abusive in ways as well. 790 00:57:18.426 --> 00:57:23.229 I've still allowed that, the potential for them to show me good. 791 00:57:23.249 --> 00:57:24.310 I've allowed that to happen. 792 00:57:24.846 --> 00:57:27.747 I'm not sure if you're talking about like romantic relationships there. 793 00:57:27.767 --> 00:57:29.988 I feel like that must be a very challenging thing for you. 794 00:57:30.148 --> 00:57:34.229 And it's a very personal question so you can completely just say I'm not answering that. 795 00:57:34.509 --> 00:57:44.873 But what you've seen and experienced your entire life, I feel like romantic relationships must be a very challenging thing for you. 796 00:57:45.355 --> 00:58:00.824 Yeah, definitely growing up probably allowed a lot of things to kind of happen again because it was considered normal, you know, like young, you know, boyfriends and being really jealous and possessive, you know, back in the day, like that was cute. 797 00:58:00.844 --> 00:58:02.645 Like, oh, he really cares for me. 798 00:58:02.785 --> 00:58:03.766 He really loves me. 799 00:58:03.806 --> 00:58:05.267 He doesn't want me hanging out with these people. 800 00:58:05.287 --> 00:58:05.387 Yeah. 801 00:58:06.253 --> 00:58:07.014 he's protecting me. 802 00:58:07.594 --> 00:58:09.135 And I didn't know any better. 803 00:58:09.475 --> 00:58:20.584 So, so that for me growing up was, was something that I allowed purely because I wasn't educated and I didn't understand, um, what was considered healthy and unhealthy in relationships. 804 00:58:20.664 --> 00:58:20.904 Right. 805 00:58:21.585 --> 00:58:25.548 So it wasn't until I really learned these things that then I could be like, Whoa, okay. 806 00:58:26.088 --> 00:58:26.809 I don't like this. 807 00:58:26.869 --> 00:58:27.889 I know what's happening to me. 808 00:58:27.949 --> 00:58:28.670 This is not good. 809 00:58:28.690 --> 00:58:31.252 Like this is showing red flags, but I'm, 810 00:58:32.710 --> 00:58:40.694 That wasn't until I was educated in the space because, again, I was conditioned to think that this was – this is how someone shows love to someone. 811 00:58:40.714 --> 00:58:42.054 I've seen it my whole life. 812 00:58:42.774 --> 00:58:59.382 I think that's obviously a very, very common hopefully learning which is that just because he – you know, often he doesn't want me to see these people or hang out with this guy or they get in trouble when they speak to some guy or even look at a guy – 813 00:59:00.282 --> 00:59:03.587 That can be misconstrued as like love and care. 814 00:59:03.667 --> 00:59:04.148 Absolutely. 815 00:59:04.729 --> 00:59:05.730 But it's obviously not. 816 00:59:05.790 --> 00:59:09.315 But are you able to explain like what you've learnt about that? 817 00:59:09.516 --> 00:59:09.736 Yeah. 818 00:59:09.836 --> 00:59:15.845 And just because I think there'll be people who'll be listening and they know it's wrong and they know it doesn't feel right but maybe aren't sure why. 819 00:59:16.126 --> 00:59:16.927 Yeah, yeah. 820 00:59:17.027 --> 00:59:22.391 And I will say that a lot of this education that I know now has come from working with JIRA. 821 00:59:22.571 --> 00:59:23.872 They have been incredible. 822 00:59:24.573 --> 00:59:31.178 So what I've learnt, like that abuse is fuelled by somebody wanting to control and manipulate another person. 823 00:59:31.298 --> 00:59:34.440 Now this can extend beyond your intimate partner. 824 00:59:34.460 --> 00:59:37.462 This can, friends, family, anyone that you have a relationship with. 825 00:59:38.143 --> 00:59:42.726 And again, these little signs of jealousy, possessiveness, jealousy, 826 00:59:44.215 --> 00:59:50.782 it can be done in ways where it's so confusing to think that this is actually manipulation or I'm being gaslit here. 827 00:59:51.703 --> 00:59:56.629 And it's so crazy and really quite scary to see that this is done so often. 828 00:59:56.649 --> 01:00:03.016 And one thing that I've learned, it's very easy for people on the outside to say, well, if that's happening to them, why don't they just leave? 829 01:00:04.112 --> 01:00:10.135 And what we know is that it takes a woman up to five to seven times to leave their partner before they actually leave. 830 01:00:10.695 --> 01:00:15.677 And even when they do, that is the scariest time for them. 831 01:00:15.937 --> 01:00:19.219 Five to seven times to actually break up or leave. 832 01:00:19.239 --> 01:00:20.499 To actually completely separate. 833 01:00:20.619 --> 01:00:21.080 Yeah. 834 01:00:21.160 --> 01:00:23.681 And so they'll keep coming back and then it's, okay, gotcha. 835 01:00:24.121 --> 01:00:26.542 And so when you think about like, do you know about financial abuse? 836 01:00:26.562 --> 01:00:28.203 A little bit. 837 01:00:28.223 --> 01:00:28.823 Tell me what you know. 838 01:00:29.529 --> 01:00:34.194 Well, I only know in terms of like when someone doesn't have like full control of their money. 839 01:00:34.654 --> 01:00:39.138 And that's great because I feel like that's what most of us know. 840 01:00:39.399 --> 01:00:45.725 So if somebody is being financially abused, imagine, right, they've got control of all... 841 01:00:46.806 --> 01:00:48.328 You may get an allowance. 842 01:00:48.808 --> 01:00:58.801 And imagine that woman keeping that allowance hidden somewhere where this person has no idea that that's been hidden and they've got to save that over months to years, whatever it may look like. 843 01:00:58.962 --> 01:01:03.027 But if they've got then three kids with them and they're trying to escape this abusive household... 844 01:01:04.108 --> 01:01:17.499 If they've got no car,

they've got no money to get in a taxi, to drive, to take them to a family member's house, it's actually quite hard for someone to just up and leave when they literally can't even feed their kids, right, because they have no money. 845 01:01:18.460 --> 01:01:20.602 And presumably that's kind of the point of the abuse. 846 01:01:20.862 --> 01:01:21.322 That's right. 847 01:01:21.662 --> 01:01:24.505 Is that it controls them to not be able to take... 848 01:01:25.205 --> 01:01:26.126 And that's exactly right. 849 01:01:26.426 --> 01:01:30.768 And so abuse doesn't always, it's not always physical. 850 01:01:30.908 --> 01:01:36.871 You know, that can, that, the fear that that instills in that person is so scary. 851 01:01:36.911 --> 01:01:45.656 And that's why it takes someone up to five to seven times to leave before they actually do, because they have been plotting and planning this for so long. 852 01:01:46.336 --> 01:01:47.517 And when we speak about... 853 01:01:49.005 --> 01:01:59.030 Aboriginal women, so we are 36 times more likely to be hospitalised as a result of family and domestic violence and we are 11 times more likely to be killed as a result of family and domestic violence. 854 01:01:59.050 --> 01:01:59.991 11 times more likely. 855 01:02:00.011 --> 01:02:00.611 Yeah, yeah. 856 01:02:01.211 --> 01:02:07.875 Now, when I speak about, you know, gender-based violence, I speak and advocate for all women, but I represent Aboriginal women, right? 857 01:02:07.935 --> 01:02:11.717 And we are so marginalised in this space, it's really quite scary. 858 01:02:11.797 --> 01:02:12.057 But... 859 01:02:12.837 --> 01:02:14.118 we aren't just numbers. 860 01:02:14.158 --> 01:02:14.938 We are the grandmothers. 861 01:02:14.958 --> 01:02:15.598 We are the mothers. 862 01:02:15.618 --> 01:02:16.398 We are the daughters. 863 01:02:16.418 --> 01:02:17.179 We are the sisters. 864 01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:22.781 And I think often that gets missed when we talk about this, right, because it's really easy to throw around stats. 865 01:02:23.461 --> 01:02:38.546 But when I try to explain it to my friend, so if I'm sitting here with a group of my friends, if one of us was experiencing abuse, I would say to them, okay, so do you have a mum and dad, a safe space, a home that you could just go to right now? 866 01:02:39.026 --> 01:02:39.907 And they would all say yes. 867 01:02:40.647 --> 01:02:43.829 But I couldn't, right? 868 01:02:44.969 --> 01:02:52.313 Do you have a safety net of money that you could access right now that will set you up somewhere else most of the time? 869 01:02:52.913 --> 01:02:53.133 Yes. 870 01:02:53.373 --> 01:02:55.855 For me, even now, no. 871 01:02:56.335 --> 01:03:00.197 Obviously, there's services and stuff, but in terms of immediate action right now, 872 01:03:01.913 --> 01:03:06.675 all of my friends would be able to go somewhere and be safe, whereas I wouldn't. 873 01:03:07.415 --> 01:03:24.442 And so trying to really simplify it and

understand it from just a real human perspective makes things a lot easier for people to actually understand how hard it is for people to leave abusive relationships. 874 01:03:25.331 --> 01:03:44.870 To put yourself in the shoes of someone like yourself and so many Aboriginal women, it really, for the privileged among us who do have a safe place to go and do have that safety net, I think it really does take a moment of just pause and actually to think about that because I think it's really quite... 875 01:03:45.491 --> 01:04:03.303 and this is obviously the issue, but it's really quite difficult to imagine how that feels, like not to put words in your mouth, but maybe the loneliness or the kind of that's, yeah, I just think I just wanted to just go over it again just because I think it is a very powerful way to think about that. 876 01:04:03.823 --> 01:04:04.664 Yeah, yeah. 877 01:04:04.784 --> 01:04:05.644 And like I said, you know, 878 01:04:06.720 --> 01:04:09.585 Gender-based violence is really topical at the moment. 879 01:04:09.705 --> 01:04:12.249 You know, we've lost 101 women last year to violence. 880 01:04:12.269 --> 01:04:14.051 We've lost 14 this year so far. 881 01:04:14.071 --> 01:04:16.715 So it's an epidemic. 882 01:04:16.735 --> 01:04:17.697 Like it's a failure. 883 01:04:17.817 --> 01:04:19.019 It's a failure and I... 884 01:04:22.524 --> 01:04:29.391 I know that, you know, it's going to take a lot of work to shift the mindset of a lot of people when it comes to this. 885 01:04:29.991 --> 01:04:34.175 But I think if we have these open conversations about it, like the real life shit, right? 886 01:04:34.196 --> 01:04:38.660 Like not the stuff that you'll read from a book, like real life lived experience, I 887 01:04:38.940 --> 01:04:44.044 to gain a greater understanding from society, like how hard it actually is. 888 01:04:44.064 --> 01:04:53.271 And I also want to acknowledge violence can go both ways, but when we're talking about this, it is gendered base because it is mostly our men that are killing our women. 889 01:04:53.992 --> 01:04:59.897 And it's really, really scary to see those numbers rise and continue to rise. 890 01:05:00.657 --> 01:05:06.322 But I think if we as a society can understand it, like truly understand it, 891 01:05:07.528 --> 01:05:18.635 I don't know, I have hope that we can create safer communities for our kids, but it's going to take a lot of work and we need everybody to want to be a part of this shift and this change. 892 01:05:19.635 --> 01:05:20.196 Yeah. 893 01:05:21.116 --> 01:05:21.376 Yeah. 894 01:05:21.416 --> 01:05:29.481 You mentioned before that your mother and you would talk about these violent men and situations. 895 01:05:30.822 --> 01:05:34.564 I can't begin to imagine how difficult those conversations have been for her. 896 01:05:36.085 --> 01:05:37.266 What's your recollection of them? 897 01:05:37.997 --> 01:05:41.598 It wasn't necessarily, you know, we sat down and spoke about it like this. 898 01:05:42.018 --> 01:05:43.699 It was acknowledged what was happening. 899 01:05:44.259 --> 01:05:54.662 But I remember we would all drag our mattresses into the lounge room and all sleep out there and we would watch the show Once We're Warriors. 900 01:05:54.982 --> 01:05:55.983 Have you ever seen that show? 901 01:05:56.243 --> 01:05:56.543 Yeah. 902 01:05:56.943 --> 01:05:57.143 Yeah. 903 01:05:57.843 --> 01:06:04.045 And looking back now, it's really not funny at all, but we would all bond over that, right? 904 01:06:04.065 --> 01:06:08.187 Like we'd be like, oh, mum, that's you, you know, that's you. 905 01:06:08.687 --> 01:06:17.850 And Sky, you're big sister Grace who cleans up after, you know, these big parties and it's like these younger kids that are crying in the back like, oh, my God, Maddie, that's you and me, you know. 906 01:06:17.870 --> 01:06:18.691 So it wasn't this... 907 01:06:19.371 --> 01:06:23.958 Like we know and we always knew that what we were going through was horrible, right? 908 01:06:23.978 --> 01:06:27.443 But it's almost like we didn't see the way out. 909 01:06:27.463 --> 01:06:28.705 So that was just our normal. 910 01:06:29.266 --> 01:06:33.592 And it was so interesting now looking back that we kind of laughed and giggled over something that – 911 01:06:34.653 --> 01:06:54.212 bonded us so close together because after the giggles it was like that fear and that feeling of being so scared that that was literally what we saw on TV was what we were living and, you know, to think back at something that we kind of bonded over was also the very thing that took our mum away from us. 912 01:06:54.232 --> 01:06:54.692 Mm-hmm. 913 01:06:55.376 --> 01:07:07.202 But in terms of asking mum questions about certain things, that wasn't necessarily the case because it was just, again, it was like normalised, right? 914 01:07:07.222 --> 01:07:13.345 Like it was just like this incident would happen where mum would get violently abused and we would see that. 915 01:07:13.805 --> 01:07:23.330 Then we'd come together and sleep in the room together and just hold each other close almost until like the next incident happened, you know, so it wasn't necessarily like a... 916 01:07:23.890 --> 01:07:25.752 Sit down, talk to me how you're feeling. 917 01:07:26.312 --> 01:07:27.033 It wasn't that. 918 01:07:27.113 --> 01:07:35.400 It was just it was always acknowledged and I suppose we just came together and held each other close in those moments when we could. 919 01:07:35.420 --> 01:07:39.323 Something that I find interesting, 920 01:07:42.669 --> 01:08:03.145 bad, for want of a better word, is that often when this issue is brought up, and I was thinking earlier on less about the physical violence and murders and more about situations of financial abuse and behaviour like that, it often gets talked about, I think, in a way that is 921 01:08:05.045 --> 01:08:07.827 And it adds a level of denigration to the women involved.

922 01:08:07.907 --> 01:08:10.688 Like it's this sort of like how did you get yourself in this situation? 923 01:08:11.609 --> 01:08:28.138 But the longer I live and the more people I meet and stories I hear and you hear about these brilliant, strong, intelligent women who find themselves in situations with awful men like this and it – 924 01:08:29.058 --> 01:08:39.885 I think it, I just want to sort of say that it doesn't discriminate for who you are or where you've come from or what you, it's just, it's not the fault of the woman. 925 01:08:40.225 --> 01:08:40.425 No. 926 01:08:40.445 --> 01:08:45.868 Because I think it's, it's sometimes not explicitly said, but implied in the way it's discussed. 927 01:08:46.653 --> 01:08:47.234 Absolutely. 928 01:08:47.514 --> 01:08:48.034 Absolutely. 929 01:08:48.214 --> 01:09:04.126 And it's interesting, I didn't know whether I was going to go here with this comment, but the idea that people can still be perpetrators, but then the expectation that we should just as a society, let them come back to community and to settle in. 930 01:09:04.146 --> 01:09:05.527 So I believe in rehabilitation. 931 01:09:05.687 --> 01:09:08.990 I believe in people being held to the full account when they perpetrate. 932 01:09:09.911 --> 01:09:35.332 But what also is quite scary is the people who can make decisions for perpetrators to come back in, to play footy, to walking around in community is quite scary because, you know, recently there was a comment made like, guys, I just want... From a white man sitting across from a group of women telling them, well, just remember, guys, like he didn't physically abuse anyone. 933 01:09:35.352 --> 01:09:35.973 Yeah. 934 01:09:36.173 --> 01:09:39.114 It was everything else, but he didn't physically abuse anyone. 935 01:09:39.534 --> 01:09:46.315 So just because he didn't physically hurt anyone, that we should all be fine and okay with this person kind of being here. 936 01:09:47.155 --> 01:10:01.258 And that to me makes me so angry that he was okay to justify this person's behavior and let it be known to the wider female community that they need to be okay with it. 937 01:10:02.198 --> 01:10:06.861 I'm like, why do we continually have to make space for perpetrators? 938 01:10:06.961 --> 01:10:09.263 Like what about the victims, right? 939 01:10:09.303 --> 01:10:13.766 Like football is a place where so many of us come together, we bond over. 940 01:10:15.287 --> 01:10:30.717 But when it comes to these kind of issues, it's unfortunate that the lines can be blurred because it's like are you standing against violence against women or are you happy for talent to mean more than integrity? 941 01:10:30.737 --> 01:10:31.117 Mm-hmm. 942 01:10:32.189 --> 01:10:40.191 And so I only mentioned that off the back of that comment because it's something that is happening. 943 01:10:40.531 --> 01:10:44.892 And like you said, it doesn't discriminate and it affects so many different people. 944 01:10:44.952

--> 01:10:50.813 And you may not be experiencing it yourself, but I can guarantee you know somebody who is. 945 01:10:52.534 --> 01:10:55.474 And we come from all walks of life, all different backgrounds. 946 01:10:55.995 --> 01:11:01.396 And like I said, just because, you know, us as Aboriginal women, we are so marginalised, like I advocate for all women and children. 947 01:11:02.357 --> 01:11:11.300 But this is an issue across this entire country, the world, but it's happening in our own backyards. 948 01:11:12.888 --> 01:11:13.248 Well said. 949 01:11:13.688 --> 01:11:15.329 I don't know what to say other than. 950 01:11:15.349 --> 01:11:18.431 I feel like there's so much more of your life than your. 951 01:11:18.691 --> 01:11:19.151 Yeah, I know. 952 01:11:19.191 --> 01:11:24.434 I feel like we're just scraping the surface of your brilliance. 953 01:11:25.394 --> 01:11:26.655 But it's been an honour to you, hasn't it? 954 01:11:26.715 --> 01:11:27.775 Episode one of ten. 955 01:11:30.977 --> 01:11:39.221 You've set up your own organisation now, Warkening, and I just wanted to know people listening to this will be feeling so much love for you and wanting to support you anyway. 956 01:11:39.521 --> 01:11:42.102 What's the best way people can support you in the work you're doing now? 957 01:11:42.493 --> 01:11:46.655 Yeah, it's still in its infancy and to be honest, like I don't even know what I'm doing. 958 01:11:46.855 --> 01:11:48.096 Like I just feel... 959 01:11:48.156 --> 01:11:50.197 I beg to difficulty. 960 01:11:50.257 --> 01:11:55.300 When it comes to the business side of things, like all I know is that I believe in my mission, right? 961 01:11:55.360 --> 01:11:59.982 I know what I want to do and this is going back to struggling to ask for help. 962 01:12:00.022 --> 01:12:04.585 Like I probably do need some help in shaping and shifting things 963 01:12:05.545 --> 01:12:10.946 where to next, right, because I've gotten so many cool opportunities that I do have big dreams for Warkening. 964 01:12:11.566 --> 01:12:20.128 And I think right now the best way, you know, to support is to, you know, head to socials, have a look at my website, check it out. 965 01:12:21.329 --> 01:12:29.150 You know, always looking kind of for sponsorship to reach, you know, more communities, more people because that's the goal with Warkening is to reach as many people as I can. 966 01:12:29.210 --> 01:12:32.191 And, you know, with this being my sole income, I've got 967 01:12:33.531 --> 01:12:38.595 I hate talking about money, but that's a big part of this work and what I am trying to do. 968 01:12:38.675 --> 01:12:46.220 So I'm still working it all out and how that's going to look, but I'm also in the process of developing workshops that can be delivered out into schools. 969 01:12:46.880 --> 01:12:49.802 Like I said, I called myself a CEO, but it's literally just me. 970 01:12:50.262 --> 01:12:52.963 So it's only me who works for myself. 971 01:12:53.163 -->

01:12:57.445 I know exactly where you're at at the moment and it's an exciting but daunting part of the journey. 972 01:12:57.605 --> 01:13:05.287 I will absolutely lock you in for an oak magic with the entire Resilience Project team so we can support as much as possible because, yeah, your work is so important. 973 01:13:05.608 --> 01:13:10.129 And I feel like saying like, oh, your mum and dad would be so proud but it just doesn't even like... 974 01:13:10.489 --> 01:13:16.972 I mean, if she was excited to tell people you're good at footy, I can't, like, she would just be... 975 01:13:18.272 --> 01:13:19.573 Yeah, I'm going to say it. 976 01:13:19.613 --> 01:13:20.773 It's just so obvious. 977 01:13:20.853 --> 01:13:21.814 Can I actually read out? 978 01:13:22.034 --> 01:13:22.954 I found this the other day. 979 01:13:22.994 --> 01:13:29.677 It was a message from mum and it popped up and it was just like divine timing when I needed it. 980 01:13:30.357 --> 01:13:31.377 I took this screenshot. 981 01:13:32.178 --> 01:13:33.538 It said, morning, my beautiful daughter. 982 01:13:33.638 --> 01:13:37.100 I just want to say that words can't explain how proud I am of you. 983 01:13:37.480 --> 01:13:40.241 I'm the proudest mum in the world and your dad would be too, I reckon. 984 01:13:40.761 --> 01:13:42.362 I reckon he wouldn't stop talking about you. 985 01:13:42.402 --> 01:13:44.483 Hey, he's smiling down on you each and every day. 986 01:13:44.983 --> 01:13:46.124 Love you to the moon and stars. 987 01:13:46.144 --> 01:13:47.024 You rock, my beautiful. 988 01:13:48.712 --> 01:13:49.212 Amazing. 989 01:13:49.912 --> 01:13:51.633 Well, they've both been smiling down on you today. 990 01:13:51.673 --> 01:13:52.734 That was just... Yeah. 991 01:13:54.014 --> 01:13:59.876 And it just, you know, this one's the favourite kid one because this was before a footy game. 992 01:13:59.896 --> 01:14:04.778 So this one, again, big important footy games, I feel like this just comes to me. 993 01:14:05.399 --> 01:14:06.799 Good luck today, my superstar. 994 01:14:06.819 --> 01:14:07.739 Chop up for me, okay? 995 01:14:07.779 --> 01:14:08.440 I'm so proud. 996 01:14:09.860 --> 01:14:10.741 And just stay positive. 997 01:14:10.781 --> 01:14:11.721 Don't try too hard. 998 01:14:11.841 --> 01:14:14.142 Just play your own game and let your natural talent shine. 999 01:14:16.232 --> 01:14:18.314 You were born to do this and you get it all from me. 1000 01:14:18.374 --> 01:14:18.755 Ha ha. 1001 01:14:20.417 --> 01:14:22.078 Love you so much and your dad would be as well. 1002 01:14:22.098 --> 01:14:24.481 Just wish he was here to witness how awesome you really are. 1003 01:14:24.881 --> 01:14:26.063 And you are my favourite kid. 1004 01:14:26.083 --> 01:14:26.924 Don't tell the others. 1005 01:14:30.768 --> 01:14:34.692 And so it's so interesting to, you know, to yearn for her. 1006 01:14:35.955 --> 01:14:52.728 even today and I will for the rest of my life, but these messages somehow just make me feel just that bit better and I'm a very spiritual person and I do feel and I know that they are with me and they are alive within me and I feel like that is what is keeping me going. 1007 01:14:54.407 --> 01:14:55.087 Wow, Courtney. 1008 01:14:55.247 --> 01:14:58.349 I'm so happy that you exist. 1009 01:14:59.249 --> 01:15:00.549 That's brilliant. 1010 01:15:00.569 --> 01:15:01.730 No one's ever said that before. 1011 01:15:01.750 --> 01:15:02.090 Thank you. 1012 01:15:02.110 --> 01:15:12.594 That's a bit of a weird thing to say, but I just feel so, so on behalf of everyone in this room, not just the three of us here, I could hear the tears from behind the curtain there throughout that conversation that... 1013 01:15:14.715 --> 01:15:17.281 What an incredible person you are. 1014 01:15:17.661 --> 01:15:22.371 And we are beyond honoured and privileged to be sitting at a table with you. 1015 01:15:23.373 --> 01:15:24.415 Thank you so much for today. 1016 01:15:24.760 --> 01:15:25.381 No, thank you. 1017 01:15:25.421 --> 01:15:30.666 This is, I just can't believe I'm here, you know, after those years of bombarding you with messages. 1018 01:15:31.527 --> 01:15:33.268 And it was all thanks to Penny that we are here. 1019 01:15:34.530 --> 01:15:35.491 But this is a great honour. 1020 01:15:35.571 --> 01:15:43.799 And like I said, I feel like I'm one of the luckiest people in the world to exist, but to be here and, you know, share this with you guys today. 1021 01:15:43.859 --> 01:15:45.120 So thank you so much for having me. 1022 01:15:45.460 --> 01:15:45.861 Thank you. 1023 01:15:46.001 --> 01:15:46.641 Thanks, Courtney. 1024 01:15:46.681 --> 01:15:47.142 Thank you. 1025 01:15:50.651 --> 01:15:53.332 If you enjoyed this episode, you'll love the vulnerability email. 1026 01:15:53.632 --> 01:15:55.772 It's a weekly newsletter that helps you remain imperfect. 1027 01:15:56.212 --> 01:16:01.474 Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life. 1028 01:16:01.974 --> 01:16:05.334 Subscribe at www.theimperfects.com.au. 1029 01:16:05.815 --> 01:16:12.256 The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. 1030 01:16:12.996 --> 01:16:19.198 The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14. 1031 01:16:20.598 --> 01:16:20.665 you