Full Transcript for Buried Alive

mean, sometimes it's about learning how to live differently with yourself, with other people, and you know, with with what has happened. So, Eric, you know, sincerely thank you so much and welcome to the Green Space Podcast. There's so much, and I say to all my guests, there's so much I want to explore with you, and I know we've got such limited Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Mm-hmm. Garon: time. But before, you know, we talk as therapists or authors, you know, I I wanna start with you as a person because, you know, I've got your book on order. I'm really, really keen to see what your transition was, you know, who Eric was before to who's cranked him into the amazing and wonderful therapist to who he is today. So I mean if I stripped away the kind of Canadian certificate, the counsellor, I mean the author, the trauma therapist, the martial artist. And all the other titles which you've got, you know, and you've worked really hard for this. Who is Eric underneath all that? Because there's all this wonderful stuff which you seem like Batman sometimes, what you're doing. I mean, who who is Eric? I mean, who is Eric behind all this stuff? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Jesper Swain. Garon: Love it. I love Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: that. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: yeah. I was born in Arkansas, so I do understand, you know, moving significantly at a younger age to Tennessee when I was around five years old. So I do understand the the impact that that can have on a child that's young. And I do understand what happens with folks that have been through bullying because I experienced that at a younger age as well. Even go into church and not wanting to get there early 'cause there's these two boys that would always bully me before the church class would start for the for the class I was in. And so I have families from two different states, one's from like Missouri, one's from Arkansas. So, you know, I was able to understand, okay, there's there's different types of, you know, cultural underpinnings with different family groups, especially one ones from Arkansas and one's from Missouri and yeah, that's a little bit about me. And there there is some mental in my family, extended wise, there was some mental health concerns that Garon: Sure. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I saw with some family members, one in particular, and that really drove me to want to learn more about mental wellness and mental health and just be able to support people. Garon: thank you so much for sharing that and and a huge background and and how interesting having that insight and awareness at a younger age of, you know, kind of recognising people, family members of mental health around you. And and obviously you were born in Tennessee and and eventually built a life, you know, in Korea in Canada. I mean what what kind of we we We touched a little bit on that a moment ago. And what shaped you in in those early years before, you know, counseling become a part of your identity, should I say? 'Cause obviously you saw what was going on in family dynamics as a as a young child and becoming aware of that. And I'm I'm so sorry to hear about the bullying. we could speak about that outside of here and I went through the stage myself many years back and they stopped, but I'll say no more. and I could get myself into so much trouble. but in general, I mean What what kind of shaped Eric, you know, in those earlier years before counts had become a part of like your true identity as I'd say, what kind of shaped you to become who you are now? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I believe a big part was being part of like a youth group in the church that I grew up in. I grew in a very I grew up in a very evangelical conservative church and having that youth group was a big big part of my upbringing. Of course we we we were a bit rebellious too, you know. We would TP people's yards, you know, throw toilet paper on their yards and I had I had to hide from the cops once, me and another friend behind a tree and the cops didn't find us. Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: But found some b found some of my friends. yep. Right. Self-incriminating, yep. Garon: You do know you're probably giving evidence now, Eric. I was no part of it, all right? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: So that that was a big part for sure. And then yeah, the the martial arts when I was nine to twelve years old was a big part as well because when it came to like doing martial arts tournaments, I despised Looking back, I really didn't like going to those. It gave me so much anxiety when it came to, you know, you would know, like performing katas or sparring in front of people. And thankfully, my second time doing that American Kempo, which some jujitsu, that didn't happen. Like we didn't do tournaments. We didn't even really do belts, really. And so I mean, we I did obtain a black belt later on, but we didn't like wear the different types of belts. We just had a black gi and You I didn't really Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: care about the belts. So that having those experiences of uncomfortability with the bullying, with the martial arts, coming into my own in the youth group, those those were some big parts for me in my life. And my dad was a medical doctor, so just seeing what he had to go through as well, like having to go pronounce people dead, so understanding death does happen, you know, at a young Garon: Sure. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: age and you know, it's kind interesting like just the work life balance piece too I picked up on like back then with a landline it had to be on the actual like he had to have accessibility to the hospital and police officer came by once and told him like put your phone back on the hook. So it's like okay like you're on you know even when you're off work you're still on and you know looking at that it's like okay that's what I saw and thankfully I've tried to not do that. as much with myself. And he's he's also not in that mode as well. He's definitely not working like he used to, but

there was a time. Garon: Sure. And you know yourself, we we we scraped across that earlier before we click record is, you know, the you know, how are you looking after your own self care and are you putting your needs first? And we do question it. I I I'd be lying as a counselor if I said my you know, I I always put my s needs first, sometimes I don't. We bend our rules, but we try Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: our best of what we have. And I Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: mean, obviously Well, were there obviously those experiences which made you kind of curious about how you behave with what dad was doing and and again, obviously with your training with your martial arts from going to the aspect of being bullying and and same with yourself, I'm trained to defend myself and it sounds harsh. Good luck with anybody who wants to bully me nowadays. but at the same time, you know, it it's not it's we use our martial arts is to defend ourselves. It's not to kind of prove that you're somebody you ain't because I've I've never been that way. and I mean Were there kind of certain experiences that made you kind of feel more curious about, you know, people behaving, coping and and surviving in ways that they do? 'Cause I noticed you said earlier about being such a young child and being observant around you with family members. I mean, was there a certain experience of you which kind of gave you that kind of little aha moment, if you like? hang on a minute. I'm on to something here. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Well, the second book I wrote's based on my dad being accidentally buried alive and I was fifteen years old at the time and I saw the importance earlier on of having people in my life because he had two friends come with him and if it wasn't for that second friend that had never been to the dig site until that day and didn't really want to come initially Then yeah, my dad would likely be not here today. And so the importance of community, of having friends, but also just how quickly something can happen to somebody that we love. And I remember my dad telling me the only thought he really had when he was underneath the dirt was, Man, I didn't think I'd go out this way. And I'm sure a lot of us have been in that situation too, whether it's with guilt and shame, yeah. I've done stuff in previous relationships, et cetera, where it's like, Yeah, I wish I wish I wouldn't have done that. I wish this wasn't happened to me. We can play the victim yet. Sure, he was the victim and th he didn't ask for that to happen. And there was no control over what happened then. And thankfully he had two people to help rescue him. And he had to do that re that recovery work himself to a great degree as well after what happened. So that was a big part too for me with how quickly something can happen, how suddenly and even for a lot of us, you know, nobody asks to be addicted. Nobody asks nobody wakes up one day and says, Yeah, I'm gonna be an addict today, you know. Garon: Sure, sure. I again I I'm Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: this is what I found so fascinating with you having to experience obviously what happened to your dad and just kind of putting that in I try not to be a therapist as much, but again, you know yourself we get told things and we reflect instantly and it's like just trying to get into your dad's world of kind of sat there thing, Well, I wasn't expecting to go out like this. It felt like I couldn't breathe. so again like you said, there there wasn't the support as as much, you know, especially with males. I think we need a hell of a lot more to be promoted over here as well as overseas with you guys, you know, over the world. We need more people to open up about male mental health. 'Cause I can only imagine how your dad with the lack of support around those days, how he managed to cope and as they did, get on with life, so to speak. So what a Yeah, it's really giving me loads of food for thought there. Just and it's like I feel I can't breathe. It's yeah, so powerful. I'm regret now I wish I ordered that book than the other one, Eric. But I will be ordering it. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: so again, obviously with that experience of you knowing what happened to dad, you know, I can only imagine how how sort of impact that could have been on yourself, especially when we do eventually process out of what could have really happened. I mean, so With all that going on as well, what kind of originally pulled you into kind of therapy and counselling work? Was there kind of like that 'cause it sounds like you're having a lot of hints in life here, you know, some extreme, you know, recognizing family members' mental health when you was a young child, what happened to daddy's wow? These are really big signs to some aspect. I mean, what what kind of pulled you towards counselling? And, you know, was there a kind of clear moment or something that Gradually kind of made sense over time 'cause there was a lot of extreme things happening around you. So Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. And I think I you know, Garen, I think I started to understand or s even subconsciously at a young age, the the striking impact of any t any type of trigger. I don't know if I call trauma. It it could be considered trauma. It was definitely overwhelming when I was living in Arkansas before we moved. There would be this mos this truck that would come and spray mosquitoes outside at night. And it had this just horrific sound it would make, like a buzzing sound to let everyone know that they were out there spraying. And I remember that being so frightening. And so when I talk with folks about, you know, auditory triggers, yeah, I c I can understand. As far as, you know, what brought me to the counseling, I really enjoy doing my AP psychology class in in high school. I tried doing the A P psychology exam, didn't pass it, didn't get the credit, didn't matter, it was okay. I did I did schooling, I got my

bachelor's in psych. And then after that it was like, Well, what's next? And I'd always been someone that people came to be able to talk with, listen, like I was a listener and so counseling was always in the back of my mind as something I found to be intriguing just because of the human experience and human behavior and wanting to be able to help people empower themselves. And lo and behold, I was like, Okay, I got a bachelor's, what do I what do I really do with this? And Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I had the opportunity to do this clinical mental health counseling masters and here I am. Yeah. Garon: It's always nice to hear and you know, again I could get into trouble with the females guests I've done here. They're all amazing people, by the way. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: But it's really nice, you know, with yourself and and Leo I've had as as having another male therapist because as we know, it y there's a lot of trainee and and trained therapists now who are male, which are coming out there, you know, in the UK it is slowly happening, if you like, but it's Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: That's good. Garon: very female. I'm not sure about yourself with your training. Mine was very female dominated. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: y yes, very female dominated in Canada as well. Garon: Hmm. Yeah. I found that quite interesting. I'm not sure about yourself 'cause that kind of it brings you on to the knocks like the next question, if you like. What did you imagine being a counsellor would be like before you kind of actively became one? And I always remember looking back, I spoke to a client who I had today, funny enough, and I spoke to him about about reflective practice. And every so often, not every year, but normally around Christmas time, after, you know, as we know, we have ups and downs in life. And sometimes I'll I'll look back at my very first review I wrote and I start laughing there because I'm like, You have no idea. so again, it's it it it's just such a fascinating journey and it's really nice to kind of hear another therapist across especially across the pond, you know, having Zim reviews. And obviously with the work you've done, I mean 16 years with inpatient, outpatient setting, I could imagine that wasn't a walk in the park. and and obviously, What has kind of what has the work taught you about people that your training couldn't taught you? Because I'm I'm a firm believer, don't get me wrong, there's such amazing therapists out there. And I do believe that obviously our lived experience can really contribute to our, you know, degrees or our you know, qualifications. I mean, what what what do you feel you've learned through life, which which obviously the counselling hasn't, if you like? You know, what what has the work taught you about people that the training couldn't have taught you. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I am never gonna fully know somebody completely. I could do an assessment, I could do fifty eight sessions with somebody once a

week and it really does not matter, Garen. I I that's what I've come to see. I I thought, yeah, I'll be able to do an intake and I'll be able to get s galls formulated and get their biopsychosocial spiritual history and I'll Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: get I'll know them completely. No, that's that is definitely not the case. So that that is the That's one of the parts. And another part is is knowing that, you know, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care and that's a big part of it too. I think that they tried to exemplify that with the importance of empathy and counseling, yet it's only until I got in the room that I realized and continue to realize the importance of, you know, unconditional positive regard and being genuine and empathic and Just meeting people where they're at. Be before throwing out, hey, let's do these let's do these therapy approaches, you know. Garon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I really like how you put that of UPR and and again there's so many people and and I've seen, you know, there's good and bad in all trades, as I'm sure you know. and what I've noticed as well, sometimes I've been quite fortunate enough different clients who have come pack come to me with my day job and my private work. It unless it is really nice to hear somebody meet me with some compassion, which is, you know, I don't like compliments and I don't like blowing my own trumpet, but when I hear that it's somewhat really nice because you're like, my God, I'm th they feel they can relate to me. and and as you know yourself, we you know, there is different ideas. Sometimes I would say I've kind of drifted more into solution focus, which can be I can be in my own worst enemy sometimes where I make a plan in my head. I'm not as bad as I used to be. I'm like, okay, I've got some of these tools and ideas. And you can guarantee the client takes you elsewhere. So I've learned Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Mm-hmm. Garon: to that point now. I go in the room, I ground myself, I'm like, where are we? Let's see where we go. Because I I used to years back kind of run ahead of myself. Sometimes I get it right. I think, you know, I'm doing great here. And then other times I yeah, I get them out of my head now then as of a prepped. So with what you said there is meet people with, you know, true and you know, as your true authentic self. It's it's it's hard to do, isn't it? A lot of people say, you know, I'm an empath or you know, I'd be a great listener. There's there's a big difference between listening, active listening, and showing true authentic, you know, empathy. It is and when you do do it, you really feel that with your clients and it's it's quite powerful in the room. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: It very much can be, Garen, and and being able to connect that way. And hey, I love S some S F T too, some solution focus with some scaling and miracle question and all that good stuff. one one Garon: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: final thing I would say, with the question of what I w what I learned was, you know what? I'm not gonna you know, and I might be I might be treading on some thin water here, but you know, I'm not gonna like every person that I work with equally. Like there's gonna be some personalities that are gonna be really hard for me. And I think people coming into the field have to realize just because they have these tools and skills and they have their best intentions, there's just gonna be some personalities that are gonna clash and you might still be able to work with them as far as after the meet and greet. Yet Garon: Yeah. Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: it's gonna be eas easier, if I will, with some people you walk with more than others. There's some people coming up on the list. I'm like, all right, here we go. Here here it comes. And it's Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: not that I don't like like there's not hatred. There's just there can be more of a challenge. And you know what? That's okay. That's the human experience. So Garon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. Yeah I must admit again with my own private work and and when I get referrals with my day job is completely different. But again it it's what I normally say to any of my clients I come to, like a client today, new client, he was really happy, you know, they can relate and which is nice. it's all about connection. I always say to any of my clients, look, you know, this is about you and your needs and your journey. Not mine, not my ego. But if it You know, if you feel comfortable working with me, that's what it's all about. You know, at the end of the day, it's not about the therapist ego. I I said we will cope. You know, it has to be right. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: That's that's right. Garon: and and there there can be, it's funny enough, I'm gonna do a talk which I've got nearly recording, about coming to therapy, you know, the reason which hold us back. So that's another conversation. but in general, you know, it is you know, I always say to this is about you and your need, not the therapist ego, you know. It has to work for you and you have to have that right relationship and you know, for you to be comfortable with your therapist. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Karen, know, it's so true. There's no room for having an armchair expert in the room. And that's that's definitely that's more so for the therapist than the client, you know. Garon: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: that's something else I've learned too. Like I I don't know everything, and there's gonna be times when I'm actually wrong, and which I think it's dangerous Garon: Cool. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: it's yeah, it's dangerous to say to someone, you know, this is the direct advice that you need to take because I'm right. And that's a that's probably one of the most dangerous things to say to someone. Garon: Yeah. And I think you'll probably highlight some of this. Again, social media's one of us therapists' favourite games, especially in

Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: the past. I've done some, you know, digital detox training and I I I was shocked really how addictive it can be, especially being a therapist. I find myself doing it now. Sometimes I can't go over the bathroom without having my phone in my hand. So I'm challenging it. So I get, you know, what what what damages it has done for us there. I mean I I saw as well looking back on on kind of your website, uses the word, you know, empathy and and with what you said earlier about empathy and and and un unconditional positive regard, it was so natural, Eric, and I loved that. And I thought, God, this I could actually sit with this guy as my therapist if he was just hearing you say it was just laid out so so welcoming, which is really nice. Yeah, it it it was really really nice hearing that and and you know Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Like likewise, likewise, Garen. Same to you. Garon: Obviously your website's using a lot of words that empathy, connection, balance and and curiosity and values. I mean, wh why those kind of words? Why why are they up on your are on your website? 'Cause obviously they're very strong and and have those kind of values changed as you've kind of become more experienced, if you like? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes, you know, curiosity did not used to be as predominant in my mind. Yet as I went along, I have definitely seen the importance of being curious. Without curiosity, we are without growth, without curiosity, we're we are without as much connection as we could be with ourselves and somebody else and perhaps a higher power. without curiosity we don't get a chance to really cultivate the amount of resilience that maybe we can cultivate. And so I do feel like curiosity can also bleed into those other ones like values, connection, community, family, health, vitality, all those different values we hold. So yes, they they have those values have been on the website for a long or those four elements concepts, themes have been on the website for a while, yet as time has gone on, my the level of importance for me has has changed. Garon: Interesting. So interesting how we set those values, isn't it, when we start and I recent as I said to you, I'm having like an audit currently, which, you know, they they pick us out as random, which is fine. And and I did reflect back, luckily I did update all of my contracts and everything a few months back. So I thought they're a bit outdated. I just need renewing them. But even now, it's only been this year, I've revamped all my website. But when you hear people are like, yeah. Yeah, they've changed a bit but they're still there. So I might have helped you out to update your website there, Eric. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: I'll throw a receipt to you later on, all right? I'll throw it over. I'm sure we'll work something out. and I mean Yeah, we'll do. And I I mean, Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Send send me the invoice. Send me the invoice. Yeah. Just give just give just give me just give me the CAD amount, you know, the the yeah. Garon: you have what's really interesting with you when when obviously we was in contact, I mean you have a unusual mix of counselling, martial arts, writing, and this is what was really fascinating on top of this, even two FBI internships as well. Do you kind of look like, you know, separate chapters to you? Or is there actually a kind of thread connecting them? Because they're all various different areas, but I'm I'm trying to have a look at connecting them if you like. I I just find it so, so fascinating. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah, you know, it's a little bit of both, Garren, 'cause, you know, it's kind of back and forth with the internships, like I did the first one when I was like in my senior year of university and then I can't remember what year it was. I think it was two well, it was two thousand eight. So it was the first summer or so of my master's degree. I was able to do that summer at the at the actual headquarters. So it's kinda like bleeds in, it kinda latches into to both undergraduate and graduate experiences. Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: And I would say though that the martial arts is definitely its own chapter because I was done with martial arts around eighteen years old as far as like going to a dojo and and doing doing the practice. I mean it it's still instilled in my discipline and my attitude and the way I spatially look around in my surroundings. Yet So it's a little it's a little bit of both for sure. Garon: Really interesting. I really appreciate hearing that. It's just trying to get into insight. I'm not playing therapist here, but it's just kind of how how Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: you is it and it's just so cool for FBI martial artists. It's just one of those kind of views on that I I think is really quite cool. So again, whole kind of purpose this, and I don't like pushing my luck too much with with with the people's stories and history, but kind of having a look at kind of you know, the heart of your main book. you've entered a book if you like, you know, February twelfth, two thousand. I mean rural Tennessee, you know, your father's on his expedition as you s as we discussed earlier, and what should have been an ordinary day becomes a near fac fatal accident. And can you kind of what's interesting we we discussed a little bit of that earlier. Can you kind of like what your dad said, you know, what he said that's still stuck with me now. And it's taking can you take us kind of into that story a little bit from from obviously the beginning? I know we we've s we've already scraped some of that at the moment. But I kind of wanted to get to call the book 'cause I mean alone I've bought the other one, I haven't bought this one, but I did read the front of it and and the back and I looked at God bury alive. I it it even made me gasp back then. So I kind of, you know, take it into kind of part of the story that with dad if you can, if if

that's okay with you. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah, sure. Yeah, the interesting thing was I was able to document all three men's experiences with the tripod and D V tape. For those that don't know what that is, it's a small little digital video tape before just having like a little S D well, there might have been S D cards, but I didn't use an S D card. And so I went to each person's one of them came to our house to do the interview and then I went to Jerry, that's his name, to his house and and did the interview. I do change the names in the book, but anyway, that that is the real name, but anyway, the secret's out. so I was able to do the do get all three perspectives and what happened was I was there actually six weeks before doing the same type of digging work with my dad. and then it was s exactly six Saturdays later that's when the unfortunate incident happened. And so my dad was in a h hole And about, I don't know, depends on who you actually ask. And it's it's it's an interesting experiment on persp perception, because they all have their own perception of what happened. Eight or nine feet whole, they were digging. It was at an overhang. So out in the woods of rural Tennessee, near an overhang, which is like a large cliff face jutting out. And so when Native Americans would come in, they wouldn't take out any dirt, they would just bring in more dirt. And so to get down to these Native American artifacts, arrowheads, There would have to be a massive digging operation. And they had their own five gallon bucket trolley system that they would bring up a hill just and then which they would then sift through the dirt, see if there's any arrowheads. Anyway, my dad felt some dirt kind of come on him just a little bit, and Jason, the other friend, was up a little bit up above the hill, you know. you know, they kind of snickered about and just kinda joked. Then a few seconds later, whoosh, all that dug, dirt, avalanche, and Jason actually, my dad's friend, he was actually buried up to around his knees. Then a big freaking two hundred three half pound rock, like a huge hundred, two hundred, three hundred depends on you ask again. Huge rock Garon: No. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: comes down on top of the dirt that came down. So the third friend had to come down off the hill, drinking like a pop or something. He had to come and help Jason get unearthed. And Jason was actually injured as well because of the rock. And then after Jason was unearthed, they had to take the rock off. And then they had a dig. And then they finally found my dad's head. And after they found his head, they rested for a bit because of that massive undertaking. And my dad was just kind of sitting standing there, you know, semi conscience with his head unnerved, still buried up to his head. And then they eventually got the rest of him out. But yes, he had a left lung contusion, several broken ribs, which they actually didn't find on the initial screening. It was later they found those broken ribs. his voice was actually impacted, I found out a lot a lot later in life from that. And yeah, he couldn't move to mobile for several days because of the ribs. Then they had to take him out after that. And it wasn't like the car was in eye distance. They had to go through at least a field or two, cow field, had to go through some barbed wire. Finally got to the Jeep again. And then they took him to the hospital. Garon: Yeah, 'cause it was right in the middle of nowhere, wasn't I? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Yes. It was really rural. And the funny thing was, this is a funny story that's in the book, but my dad and I were actually trying to find this place later after it happened to go back and look at it. And I did video him taking a look at what was remaining. And there was people stole like a shovel and some other stuff too. But anyway, this these people were following us and we stopped and my dad got out. I like, Can I help you? Like what what's going on? And They thought that we were actually like drug dealers, like like seeking out meth 'cause in that area they do actually they do actually create meth and make meth in caves and make meth in different ways in that area. We were like, no, we're not we're not trying to deal meth or make we're not seeking it. We're just trying to find this place. So like, okay. Go then they it's all good, you know. And then w then we went on our way. Garon: Yeah God. Yeah, God. That's just that. And it's how interesting that Dad's wanting to go back as well. I think this is my therapy mind wandering. You Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Mm-hmm. Garon: know, Dad going back there. And I mean it he's again, even the thought of just having that land on you and you know, pff let's be honest, you you Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Literally. Yeah. Garon: kinda sat there getting into that person's mind at that time, saying, Well, I'm gonna die. I God, that's so powerful, especially with your dad being so brave. And you know, here to this day, I mean, that's such a story and and w wanting to go back to where it happened as well is really, really interesting, quite powerful. I can imagine, you know, for your dad's Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: so powerful. And again, it yeah, it's so moving this story. And, you know, what what do you remember about obviously the first moment you understood how serious it had been? Cause let's be honest. dad accident at work. You know, it could be anything. We don't expect him to be buried alive, Eric. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah, the way I found out was interesting. We we were we lived in like a subdivision and we were coming out, gonna turn, and then this car actually this is a small town, by the way, you have to understand. So this car was turning in and then they rolled down their window. We knew who they were and they said, Hey, we found out that Tim, that's my dad's name, had been in an accident. And we had no clue at that point. back in two thousand before really cell phones had been And I

just now realized that there was no cell phones at that time. I mean, there was there was phones that of course they didn't take out they didn't bring out those big brick phones, nor nor did they have them at the time. So we were like, okay. So for me, it was shock and surprise and I didn't really know what to think because there was lack of details and they came in obviously later in the day, like, this is actually what happened. 'Cause they went straight to the hospital and then that's worry. So I don't even remember going to the hospital. My mom did go to the hospital, and my mom said he was unrecognizable. my dad, like just with the dirt and everything else. Like in every orifice, taking several showers to get the dirt out. So for me it was still like maybe this is true for a lot of people. They just they don't have all the information, so it's just kinda still a a little bit of confusion and just not knowing what to think. Garon: The unknown God. Yeah, that's really quite intense. You're all your family members as well. Yeah, just that thought, you know, dad's have an accident. Nine times at a ten cut their arm or n like I said, not being buried alive at work. That's that's kind of I'd love to kind of dad's perspective is so fascinating. I mean, obviously there's the physical physical reality of obviously being trapped. But there's also again, you and I it is also the psychological reality of thinking you may die. I I know I've gone back to that a bit. But I can only imagine what was going into going on for dad internally. Like you said, you know, his thought process was, I didn't expect me to go out for this. I mean, I can only imagine what was happening for him internally. And also as well, what was interesting, you made the choice of of kind of the book which you've written is the perspectives of all three men involved. you know, and again, I kinda wanna ask is why is it important not to tell the event from one person's point of view? But I'm really interested in that you went straight into that and you interviewed all three. I found Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: for me. Yeah, it was for me. Yeah. That was for my curiosity, for my discovery to interview them and see what did they see 'cause I was trying to understand it as well. Garon: So did that did that help you then hearing like each other per a person's perspective, change kind of your own understanding of what happened? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Yes, it definitely did, 'cause I was able to see from everyone's vantage point what they were doing. And you know what? I never blamed anybody for what happened. Like there was no blame to be had. And if I ever did have any blame, I'm pretty sure that having those perspectives would have told me, yeah, there's no need to blame anyone here. That's it's Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: just something that happened. I mean, I don't even blame the people that were there probably you know, prior. That included, you know, my dad and his two friends getting the dirt out. I mean, it's not like they meant for that to happen. So Garon: No. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: it was it was really intriguing for me because they they have some nuances in their stories that are slightly slightly different with the way things went down and that's because you asked someone about a car crash and you get three or four different perspectives and they all have similar but also different like, you know, how much dirt and maybe how big the rock was, but also their outcome of their self with what happened. One of them will not go back to what to that type of experience with digging. He he believes that they did not need to be there in the first place. And that's documented in the book with the interview. So Garon: Yeah, I can imagine that's really interesting from di three guys' different views of what happened and and how they feel around that. It's very interesting. The last guy when you said he don't feel they had to be there. That's really interesting. yeah, it's very fascinating that you went in there to kind of interview and to kinda get their perspectives. I find that really interesting. So did you understand Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: kind of like the impact at the time? Or would you say that kinda you reflected on that and and years later? You know, 'cause again that's gonna have some impact on the family, let's be honest, with things going on around and sometimes in person, you know, in the accident sur survives, but then it's the emotional impact, you know, can spread what much further than that one person who was, you know, physically there, i.e. dad, his work colleagues extending out to family members. So yeah, I mean that it understanding that impact of the time or or was that kind of years later you started to understand that a bit more? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: There was a certain amount of impact acutely initially, yet I do believe more so it was years later, as I matured, as I grew, as I even came into the counseling work. Yet it was it was definitely more of a progressive and a a lot of people may be able to relate to that with what they've experienced with their own experience experiences with trauma and whatnot. It's there's a there's a latent peace that can happen. Garon: And I and I really admire something, you know, like yourself and and so personal to you, something like that, which happened. And having the courage to write about a book. Again, I want to pick your brain and all the other wonderful people I've had on the show of of their book writing and you know, we all have a story to share. And I find that really brave of all you guys of of being able to have one, the courage of sharing that, and two being able to share share something which is personal to you and means a lot to you. I I find that so moving. I'm As I said to one of my guests a few months back, I said I'm at the edge of the lake but I'm not ready to jump in and the thing is with the Americans and Canadians, you guys

are kinda like, just go and do it. I'm Yeah, well we're not built like you. I wish Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: I was, but I'm you know, I would. I'd I'd love to pick your brain about that in in in the near future. You know, there's some ideas there and it's like I said, I'm on that edge and and you guys, just jump, you'll be fine and I'm like, I've got to have a build up So So again, obviously the title, Buried Alive, you know, is literal. but also a powerful metaphor. what what are kind of some of the ways you've kind of seen people become buried, you know, psychologically without anyone being around them, you know, necessarily noticing? Obviously with dad's scenario. But again, looking this on the therapist mind, people being buried of of life stuff, you know, and psychologically without anyone around, you know, then obviously it it can be really quite hard. Many clients which come to us they can be buried amongst stuff as well. but I mean, again, I mean, what have you kind of noticed, you know, psychologically without anyone, you know, around them, if you like, ne necessarily noticing that? Because you know sometimes when people come to mental health there isn't no support. You know, kinda looking at that, there's no one there to help him in that moment. So again, our clients can have that sometimes. So what are some of the kind of ways you you know, you've seen people become buried if you like, without anyone around them necessarily noticing. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Loneliness, especially as far as other people not noticing. Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Anger. Addiction, trauma, grief. And if I had to dispel that buried alive down to certain emotions, I would say shame and guilt and regret being you know, the top probably w if I had to give a list at least today it'd be the the top three with being feeling buried alive and feeling like I there's no way out of this, you know, metaphorical dirt, if you will. Garon: Sure. It's it's quite hard to see puts people and less there aren't isn't there at the moment. And all we can do is really sit with them and help them work through that. And and what I like about you as well, Eric, is obviously, you know, the framing here, you know, is that kind of obviously balance is not kind of p a perfect fifty fifty state, if you like. And from kind of like a a counselling perspective, you know, balance can be much more kind of fluid. noticing when when part of life, you know, one coping strategy or one e expectation has begun to dominate and then obviously gently restoring choice. And for somebody who's lived, you know, kind of in s survival mode, you know, balance may kind of initially mean creating enough safety or stability to notice their own needs again. which of which of those kind of areas do you see people struggling with to kind of balance the most would you say? Obviously give us some some of your top tens there if you like. But w what Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: what what are you what are kind of, you know, over there where you are, you know, which of those areas do you see people struggling to balance the most often, if you like? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: And I can relate to this personally myself when it comes to comparisons. And you know, there's two different extremes. I can either be compare myself all the time to other people that have something that maybe I don't have, which I've had in my experience, or I could really restrict myself and not compare at all and never learn. From someone else's experience and their aptitude and their qualities and what their strengths. So I do feel like in our culture, especially with lovely social media, as we talked about, you know, a moment ago, that you know, comparisons can be rife. So I think trying to find a balance between like restricting myself as far as being curious about other people's experiences and how they, you know, compare to mine, but also not at the expense of myself, comparing myself, and then going into a place of you know, sadness and loneliness. So I i if I had to give one on the top ten, that would be one. Yeah. Garon: It's kind of you know, I often see as well, and sure you do yourself. I mean, as trained professionals, we can do it ourselves sometimes. And I I often see people who have become very good at functioning while emotionally, you know, let's be honest, they're completely exhausted. Do you do you kind Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: of think our culture sometimes rewards people for for staying dysregulated as long as they you know, as long as they're still productive, if you like? That's another one which I'm using at the moment is emotional dysregulation. It's and dysregulated is the new terminology we're going through at the moment. So you would would you s do you think our culture sometimes rewards people for staying, you know, dysregulated as long as they're they're still kind of being productive, if you like? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: man, totally Aaron. And it's it's even more rough, I think, in the States when it comes to well, it can even get to the point of addiction involving productivity. And a person gets to that place where they feel like they have it's it's like choice or sorry, demand over choice. Demand, demand. I gotta meet these demands, I gotta meet these expectations, which brings in another balance piece around, you know when it comes to planning, maybe I need to plan sometimes and maybe I need to embrace spontaneity other times. And so maybe I need to be working and then taking the breaks and saying the word enough. The balance between being and doing can be often quite precarious and very challenging at in my work and in your the work that you do, other people that do work. Between being and doing there's the hope we can find that balance with those and I do think that our culture really rewards those that do more work, you know, employee of the month if it's they met this certain quota or I only took off, you know, two

months for paternity or maternity leave. Whereas somebody else is like, Are you two months? Really? I did like a year, you know. So Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: it's it it comes into comparisons too where it's like, that guy's doing so much. He's so productive. He's doing TikToks every day, you Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: know, like and I've come to realize even with my work, Gary, you might be able to relate, I cannot do 40 hours of face to face. I would burn out quicker than a I don't know, a nineteen seventy pintoe. I would I need to like pull it down. I think I'm kinda doing like, you know, f eighteen my hope is around seventeen to twenty five. Twenty six is fine with me. I totally don't mind that. Garon: Yeah, and I I've noticed as well, 'cause I I get certain referrals in better help and I've networked with some American and Canadian therapists, especially I know more so much about the Americans and Canadians, but the hours you guys do, I you know, again, I work a full time position, which is say forty hours a week, and I do four evenings and half a day on Saturday. But again, what I remember looking back when I did have twenty five clients that week. I was just kinda like, Wow, but you guys kinda do that on average where I've seen some therapists do a lot more than that and I'm like, D how do they sleep? I mean, you know you know Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: and you guys obviously if you know therapy's been kind of more open in America and you know, w with you know, therapy it you know, when I've spoken to most Americans are like, you know, everyone's been to therapy where over here people are like, have you been to therapy? So it's it's really interesting how you guys do but you You're right, you guys do really push. We we put push, don't get me wrong, but nowhere near as you guys, especially in the in in the therapy field, you know, I know we do do some hours, but when you hear you guys are your caseloads, I'm just like, How how half of you not burnt out? So I I I kinda I just admire how much you guys can take on a weekly basis of clients. That's just unbelievable. I take my house. Then you got your case notes, Eric That's always the favourite part, isn't it? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: my I remember doing Gary, I remember doing case notes by hand and I do not wish on any anybody. I do not want to go back to that. so I'm so thankful for AI being a good supplement tool for my over forty year old brain, to help with that. Yet it still takes Garon: Mm-hmm. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: time even with AI. So I hear ya. Doing intakes, I mean Takes time. People don't realize that, you know, twenty five hours of face to face that's gonna equal a lot. Potentially we're looking at several hours of recording and documentation, yeah. Garon: Well, I'll take my hat off you because we try. And I mean, Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: I've noticed obviously there's included a lot of kind of invol invulner vulnerability, sorry, in in the balance section if you like. And I think vulnerability is is often misunderstood as, you know, weakness of oversharing. What what does kind of healthy vulnerability mean to you, Eric? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Are you asking Gary about healthy vulnerability as far as self disclosure or like the client client sharing or yeah. Garon: Yeah, in general as in Yeah, as in kind of vulnerability as we can kind of misunderstood sometimes as either either weakness or oversharing if you like. I mean Yeah, so what does that kind of Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: yes. Yes. Garon: you know the healthy vulnerability mean to you? 'Cause we again I can only go I'm not a complete expert on females 'cause as we discussed earlier, you know, working with a lot of males. For guys to let their guard down can be quite hard. And I'm not saying females can be too, 'cause they can. But I find so many guys, especially recently I've I've had some amazing therapy clients come to me and I mean it took me about six to eight, about seven sessions for this guy to eventually let his guard down with me. And and being vulnerable, I I I always say to some of my clients that, you know, think of it this way. It's kinda like you becoming that vulnerable young boy again. Where your emotions out here, you're vulnerable to the world, is scary and you don't know where to turn. And and seeing a guy in that mode, you've You've got to kind of work with them so well, because as you know yourself, you can cause so much damage, especially when a guy have put themselves into that vulnerable state of mind to say, Do you know what I can trust this person, I can open up to them. And as you know yourself, things can go quite wrong if if you haven't kind of got the experience to do that. And and and having that kind of gift that somebody's comfortable to open up to you. I mean, it's such an amazing thing. I'm I'm really truly blessed with that. I mean, what does kind of healthy vulnerability mean to you i in in regards to that what I said? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I've also had those experiences, Garan, where people didn't want to open up initially. I can remember one case especially where it was at least four or five goodwill hunting type of sessions before he he decided, and hey, I didn't want to push it, don't wanna don't wanna force, don't want to coerce, intimidate. It's not not our jam, right? As a therapist. As far as vulnerability, it kind of goes back into the balance piece where I can be extremely vulnerable at the expense of myself and maybe tell all to someone that does not need to know. Yet there's also the other extreme of and we see it with a lot of men, especially, not the stereotype man guys, but I'm gonna like be so restrictive that no one's really gonna know me. I'm not gonna be vulnerable at all at my own expense because then I can't connect with others. And so it's trying to find the balance between those two where I don't just kinda get into emotional reasoning and I start to just bleed even to

people that maybe would take advantage of me. Yet for those that I know I can trust and that I have a good relationship with, with my boundaries in place, I can share. I'm not restricting myself. So that's a little bit on vulnerability, I feel that it comes down to that curiosity again. Vulnerability also involves giving ourselves the space to be vulnerable and giving other people the space. And I think a last part on that is being able to enrapture silence when it comes to vulnerability. Because as you have experienced and I've experienced walking with folks professionally, and you might even see this even with personal relationships where, you know what? Maybe I need to shut up right now. Maybe I don't need to say anything right now. I Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: just need to I just need to just need to listen and get that space. And Garon: Yeah, yeah. God I really like that how you said the layo, you peel that away. I like that. I like I could vision that, which is really really nice to hear. And I mean if we have a look at kind of, you know, you also include, as we spoke of earlier, self care, which has been almost, you know, become the marketing phrase, if you like, and and from a clinical, you know, I'm more behavioural and clinical, but kind of from a clinical perspective. What is self care when we take away, you know, I love my baths. There could be a nuclear walker outside, Eric, I wouldn't care. If I'm in the bath and I've got bubbles, I'll be in there for hours. Everyone does what they please and I'll figure out when I'm out. The bath is my place. So what you know, what is self care when we kind of take away the baths, you know, the candles, the social media slogans, if you like. You know, w what is self care? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: you and I are two kindred spirits 'cause I can drop bath bombs like the best of them, Karen. I I love I I love the Garon: Ha ha ha ha. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: baths, I love Epsom salts, the yeah, the smell. Garon: Love it. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Candles, yeah, it's it's great, you know. I think we're we're both manly enough, or both vulnerable enough to share that in a minute. I would s Garon: Yeah, and do you know what? I'm I'm actually proud of it though, Eric. So if any of the males out there, we do like our baths and we're happy in our baths because I've had some guys Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: say to me, you're gonna go home and have a bubble bath. Actually, do you know what I am? And I'm quite happy. I've got Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: my chill out music. I won't tell people what certain music I left listen to 'cause it's a bit emotional and I'm not ready to share. But I do. I'm I I love that. I mean for me, you know, people say, you know, you're going on holiday this week. I've had my week off with my day job, and it's like, I've been in the bath countless times, Eric, and I'm completely happy. I don't care what happens in the roof, just don't disturb me when I'm in the bath. That's all I want. So again, I mean, in regards to obviously the self care, you know, with that, you know, what is that? You know, because we I know I do it. I I know many of us therapists do, is you know, straight away we hear our clients pushing ourselves to their limits, you know. what about your self care? We know we're not perfect on it. But we do our best of what we have. So I mean, you know, taking away the baths and and all these wonderful, you know, the candles, the social media slogans, I mean, what what what is self care? You know, what what is kind of that overall for ourselves? And and can kind of self care sometimes mean doing like the uncomfortable thing rather than the soothing thing? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes, it could mean doing something uncomfortable as opposed to something soothing. And uncomfortable can include exercise, which I don't know about you, but I don't find movement andor exercise to be necessarily comfortable. Case in point yesterday doing my shoulder workout, there was a point where I was like, Yeah, this weight is a little too weighty right now, but I know I need to do it. Garon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: now they they could also be talk therapy or getting her own therapy or being able to, you know, just get into situ it could be talking with someone, a friend, where okay, it's not super comfortable. I gotta be vulnerable yet. You know, I'm sharing about this. It could be another therapist friend too that can understand that, you know. as far as self-care itself, there can be a balance there as well with that being and doing component again. You know, I can be doing things like movement. Tai chi, bubble baths, biking, Garon: Okay. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: hiking, whatever. But I can also be simply I could just I could just be being, which you know, taking a bath there's a little bit of both, but I think it's more so just being. It's just kind of like I'm in the present moment, right? People do meditation, people they have their own sanctuary in their house, you know, and they're reading, they're just being with that book. So There there can be a balance there. And as far as self-care when it comes to being able to look at the concept of self-concern, self-care doesn't have to be necessarily selfish, like the world might look see it as like, you're doing self-care all the time. You're just really selfish. No, it means I got self-concerned for myself. And that can self-concern can include other people. And so I do appreciate that concept. Garon: Yeah, that comes into it a lot as well. And it's something I I always take this with me, my my very first supervisor in counseling, Richard, nearly 30 years in the industry, very old school. And I always remember when I started doing things for myself and I was looking at selfish or selfishness, and I remember going into him and I was in a particular stage in my life, and I said I said I feel really bad because I've I've started doing my training more. I started to

go out running more, I've started to do my hiking a little bit more. And and over the years in a p in a certain scenario in my life, that kind of all got closed off. But I found that I started doing things for myself where I thought, I've I've neglected this, I need to start doing some of these things. And I always remember him saying to me, He goes, Right, he goes, Here's a question for you, he goes, Are you out getting drunk every night and spending all your money and you know having affairs and all that sort of so well no I'm Going for a run, I want to do my training. He goes, What frustrates me now, mind you, he's old school, so he's retired now, so he can say what he wants. He he generally said, He goes, Yeah, too right. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: He is right. Garon: He'd been there, done it, bless him. And and he generally said, He goes, If we look at selfish or selfishness, you know, putting one's needs before others. He goes, Why is that so bad, Garen? And when I sat with her, I sat with her, even driving back from my supervision session, it still didn't sink in, Eric. I was like, I know, but it's really bad because I'm I'm doing this for myself. Eventually within that time that settled more and it felt more comfortable with me. And and if people wanna say selfish in a negative way or selfish because they're putting one's needs first, that's fine. Like you and I, I mean, we've had to do let's be honest, you know, becoming to the, you know, level of what we are is that we've had to make plenty of trials and error to get to where we are and you know, push our boundaries, push our limits. And and and if people said to me, you know, are you selfish? I'd be like yeah, if I need to put my needs first, of course I'm gonna put before anyone else. Because harsh values are through my upbringing and certain stages in my life. If I didn't put my own needs first, you know, especially sometimes with my work, you know as well as I know, we're quite easily burnt out within a month. and we have to have healthy boundaries in place. You know, I'm quite assertive to because I'm sure you know of our discussion before the podcast, I've got to watch my Ps and Q's. I'm known for it. You know, that's me being my true authentic self. But at the same Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: time I used to be that people pleaser. No matter what was going in my life. Even if I was on the brink of breaking years back, I'd always help someone else. But the thing is now I help me. And and the harsh realities are no matter, you know, who listens to this or who judges that, you know, I've worked hard to be more better at my boundaries, be more better at my own self care, because I was always putting everyone else's needs first. And that that kind of sat with me a bit what my ex supervisor said to me in regards to, you know, putting one's needs first. He goes, Why's that so bad? And I think that are always when I hear that about selfish and selfishness, that always comes back to me. And I find it really interesting no matter where you are on a globe, a lot of people say that. Or, you know, if you do put your healthy boundaries in place and make sure your needs are met, people kind of look at it that it's negative. People don't realise that, you know, beyond the surface there could be anxiety, there could be stress, there could be depression, there could be all these certain things, but most people think that you're being a terrible person. It's like, well no, I'm just putting healthy boundaries in place. Can you see where I'm going with that? It's really interesting. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: So many people do that. and Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes, Garon: how everyone else looks at that, you know, self care that it's a selfish thing to do. It's so interesting. I'd be sat here for hours speaking there, just looking at everyone's different perspectives on that. And obviously, with with obviously your CIA framework, which you have again, so fascinating. you know, gives us kind of a useful sequence to kind of explore rather than kind of a quick. fixed formula if you like. and curiosity can can create space around an experience and introspection can kind of help us understand patterns and meaning. And you know, agency asks, you know, what is realistically within our influence now. kind of clinically, I would add that, you know, kind of the pace matters. And for some people, especially around, you know, trauma, introspection need to happen within a sense of safety rather than becoming kind of another demand to analyse themselves if you like. So what happens when we kind of replace what's wrong with me with what's happening in me? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Mm. Garon: I kind of wanted to throw that kind of looking at your book and and kind of how you practice I I thought that was a good from me from a standard counselor for now to you, Eric. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: You know, being able to get away from the labels of what's wrong with me or even just being defined by those emotions and I'm I can't go anywhere feeling that way. I think it's being able to look at systematically, like in my environment. Yeah, what is happening with family, with friends, with work, and you know, what is influencing what's going on for me right now. It's not n not just what's happening inside. There's there's two parts at play. There's an interplay there of environment, but also what's happening internally in the internal world. I do believe there's a part there. And going back to, you know, the self-care that you were talking about in the environment, people assume. People assume things about me, and it's unfortunate. And part of self-care and understanding it's more so what's happening with me. is not allowing somebody to edit my reality, you know. And I can't take credit for that phrase that comes from Alan Berger, Twelve Stupid Things That Mess Up Recovery. Great book. And Garon: Okay. Excellent. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: y you know, it's just not

allowing someone to edit my reality and owning my projections. He talks about as well. And I do feel that we can be investigative. We can be curious. And I love the way that you outlined all three of those very succinctly. We can be introspective, what is going on inside of us, yet with our environment we can take that agency and take some actions for change. And I think I think that there really can't be that agency without any type of curiosity. Otherwise I don't really know what I need to do to help myself with what's happening for me in my environment. Yeah. Garon: thanks for asking. You're giving me some insight. I I love it when you I say this. I've probably said this on every podcast. When you guys give me stuff to reflect on, it's like I wanna keep you all in my room and just line you up to hang a minute, Eric, can I pick your brain on this? And just, you know, Lee, I need some more information on the EMDR. You know, I'd I Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: sit with you guys for hours. I I I love what I do with it and and thank you so much for kind of giving me that insight even more more so, you know, in regards to that. And and again, obviously you're you know, does agency sometimes kind of begin very small? You know, not kinda changing your whole life, but choosing kind of then, you know, next ten minutes differently. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Yeah. I was really close scaring to having one of my screenplays published or well, produced. It got into an escrow account, multiple producers on board, agent was on board with me, and then this film came out that was quite similar and everybody just abandoned, just everyone just disbanded. It was like it Garon: no. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: was like nothing ever happened with it. And I felt so dejected, so rejected, so abandoned. And it took me some time Speaking of agency, to think, you know what? I can do something else with this script and or, which is what happened, I can go a different route. And that's when I started to think about writing my next book. And that was way down the line, several years down the line. So yes, that's a very extreme example of like years it taking, yet when it when it comes to agency, yeah, it starts to trickle. It's we we start to look at the importance of discipline rather than just motivation, which is very emotionally dependent. And discipline takes some time to cultivate, agency takes some time to cultivate. And it starts out often really small. Even just the thought process of, yeah, something can be different here. I can contemplate that something can be different. And that can be where it starts. Absolutely. Garon: Sure. Yeah, that's brilliant. I really appreciate that insight. And and I think this is where kind of obviously agency kind of becomes practical rather than motivational language. So, you know, again, I I'm kind of drilled in as many of us CBT and kind of DBT work. I mean, change is often built through small observable choices. how can I put this? Pauses be but before reacting. And, you know, a small choice does not erase the difficulty it can show the person that difficulty and choice can exist at the same time. So again, it it's having that insight. I can't believe I'm having this conversation with a fair fellow therapist on my very first review, Eric. I wouldn't have even thought I'd Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: have been speaking about it. So what are talking about? I mean I've really I'm really Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: loving this conversation and and obviously, you know, the other area in yours is obviously connection. you know again connections with ourselves, with other people and within the community as well. Why why do you kind of see those as as kind of different but equally important forms of connection, if you like? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: When you say connection in regards to like professional and personal or yeah. Garon: Yeah. As well as well as kind of within the community as well. 'Cause obviously he's doing a lot of therapy outside kind of outreach work, if you like. So I'm kind of interested in that really. You know, who do you who who do you see as those kind of as differently but equally, you know, important forms of connection, if you like? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: It's good to connect with other therapists just on the professional level since I do private practice and there's no one in my practice just myself, which you Garon: Wow. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: might relate to. So I do I actually do virtual work with another clinic and so I'm able to be part of their meetings and if if I have a availability their consultation groups and you know There's something about having that community with therapists. Even with my association I'm a part of, we do these get togethers every so often at people's homes. And it's a great way to connect in the community with like minded therapists. And yes, I would say eighty to ninety percent female therapist. And Garon: Really. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: then yes, very small handful of us that are males. Garon: What are us guys doing, Eric? We need more. We we can't catch up with the females at the moment. They're taking over. yeah, they're still injured. I I love it that you guys do that as well. Because again, you know, I see a lot of therapists on social media, I see a lot of adversary social media on that side. And even at the same time, I I'm not sure what it is. I'm not sure if it's personal views or egos or or whatever it is for individual therapists. But but again, it you you see people doing this advertising and I'm like, if only we could all come together and it sounds like you guys are kind of built that, which is really nice to see. I mean, I'd I'd kill for networking therapists. A lot of the therapists I know, obviously there was Leo's in Cornwall. Most of you other guys are in the States, so I can't r har hardly really say, Well does anyone want to meet up for a coffee unless I jump on plane or boat, Eric. but

again, I I I think we so deserve to kinda have that community if you I you know we're with other people and and like minded as you know it's I don't know about you, especially you in your office on your own. It it's a lonely path, this career. I I can't really say as it's the most easiest and certainly not one of the hardest. But at the same time I think you can be quite lonely as therapists because we're working, we're reflecting, we're going to bed, we're getting up for work. You know? So it can be, you know, Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: it can be quite draining for us, can't it, as therapists. And And obviously, you know, on connection, you know, is important because it widens obviously recovery beyond the individual. And and obviously we can develop, you know, insight, coping skills. But humans obviously also regulate, you know, we learn, we make meaning in relationships and connections with self. I mean connection with another person and connection with a wider community may each you know, meet different needs, which I've I I love it, what you guys are doing over there. And obviously the therapeutic relationship of self can kind of sometimes become a safe place to practice being known without having to perform as as many of us have had to do and learn throughout that time. So you know which which one you know, which one do people most often neglect? I'm really interested in your view on this. You know, what what's one of the biggest things people neglect about themselves, which you've noticed as a therapist? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: You know, being able to have those coffee dates with folks I think can often be minimized. I've had to work on that as well outside of meeting with another therapist, just someone that's not in the field. I found that to be very beneficial 'cause I don't have to talk about the work I do 'cause that can be quite entrenching. So I would s I would say that just being able to f people I think with such a busy schedule, I think that we a lot of us have a hard time. finding the time to make the effort to set up these different, you know, coffee chats with folks. And one of Garon: Yeah. Sure. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: the ones I love doing is with a an actual British fo guy that I know of all of all nationalities. And he and I like to go to this particular pastry and coffee place and just have a chat, you know, and i it's not like it's every week, it's not often every month, yet I know it's gonna be coming around at some point. And with other Garon: Sure. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: folks it's a it's gonna I'm trying to get it a little bit more streamlined. So I do Garon: Sure. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: feel like the one on one is something that a lot of us have a struggle with because of busy lives, busy families, busy schedules. Garon: Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, one of your areas as well described obviously I've I've s scraped through the book as much as I can to get the material. But I mean it what I read and highlighted was obviously I think it's the fourth area you described i in your book. Obviously, you know, material as the power of the words W. in fulfillment. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: I I kind of saw a bit of that and d you know, direction and taking action. And I'm I I'm deliberately not gonna kinda go and reveal it, you know, to you if you like, but but what is the W word and why why does it deserve an entire part of this framework? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I don't mind if we spilled the beans. That's okay. Garon: Mm-hmm. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: it's another pot. Yeah, it's all good. the word is with and I try not to be a semantic, you know, commander, if you will, with the word. Yet I do feel that it comes from a martial arts standpoint that you might be able to relate to as well, Garen, where I do a punch with a kick. Is not a punch and then a kick. And I know that sounds super nuanced and super semantic and like really kind of like dogmatic character, where you going with this? Yet it's it's having the fluidity, it's having the connections. It's not like we have, you know, thoughts and then maybe down the line we have feelings. It's like thoughts with the feelings, you know, or having faith in the process and take with action, right? And see I even did it there. So the end. So I don't want again, you know, where we live in this world of yes but, you know, yes, but this. It's kinda like a second language for us, you know, yeah, but Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: so I do just want to give people a different viewpoint on okay, I can have a intention about something along with execution. You know. Garon: I like that, yeah. Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Work with rest. And those are a few of those that are that are in the book that I mentioned. Yeah. Garon: And I like that. It's kind of similar to what what I look at as DBT is pick up tools and, you know, go and work with them. It seems like you're kind of helping people kind of when they're in that moment. It's like, okay, you're in that moment, you're feeling it, you're aware of it. Okay, work with it and move forward with it. I really like that what you do there at Cast really giving me loads of food for thought because there's so many different therapists in so d different ways. You know, we're all taught taught in these very similar theories and ideas, and there's amazing what well they are, they're still ideas, they're not. facts, the theories we work with. So I really enjoy where therapists kind of adapt things in their own way, as you know, Carl Rogers spoke of in regards about, you know, being a trained therapist, but it's being the true authentic self to meet somebody in that i i in that way. And I I find it really interesting that you've kind of gone down that route. So it it's a different view, which I love. And I mean, what how does kind of again we we see this a lot time I certainly do in my in my own practice in regards to Yeah, how does that idea move somebody from insight into

action? Because people can definitely understand, you know, themselves brilliantly, but still stay stuck. I mean, how does that idea move somebody from that insight in action? 'Cause again it sounds like they're aware of that insight and you're kind of shifting them along with that. I mean, how how do they kind of how does that idea kind of move somebody, you know, from that insight place into action? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Totally. It's yeah, it's awareness with action and then it's action with imperfection. And so I try to tell people you don't have to do the next right you gotta do the next right thing perhaps for you, but you don't have to do it right. You don't have to do it perfect. And so I think for a lot of us, and including yours truly, it could be the same with evening and publishing a book, like it must be perfect, you know. Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: No, not necessarily. It's a very vulnerable thing to publish a book. It's a vulnerable thing to take the next step, however small in someone's life. And so it's Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: just really just taking that step and knowing, okay, challenging those thoughts and inspecting those feelings and even challenging me maybe those feelings about that are linked to that perfection need. It's okay. I'm enough. I'm worthy enough to take the step and I can go forward. And I think that's just a big piece for a lot of us is. I'm worthy enough with the tools that I have and the lack of perfection to take the next step. Garon: I like that. Yeah, I do like that. And and again, the book which I ordered, I will order the other one, I promise. This is the one I'm keen to get. Is the other Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: That's okay. Garon: book is the obviously martial art of recovery. obviously American Kempo concepts and and translates them into addiction and mental health strategies. I mean, where did that idea come from? I find that really, really fascinating. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah, you know, Garen, I was looking for a way and I think the thought came to me actually in the bathtub of all places, which actually isn't too surprising. Garon: That's where my idea was with this male group, funny enough. I was like, there's an idea. Need to spend more time in the bath. I love it. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Right? See? See it see there's synergy here. Yeah. yeah, so I was trying to figure out okay, what are some concepts, what are some what are some different maybe metaphorical or wordplay ways to bring in strategies and concepts, tools for recovery involving substance use and behaviors and even toxic relationships. And so what have I been through in the past? quite heavily and very vulnerably at times. yeah, martial arts. Right. And so I got permission from Kevin Lampkin. Thank you, Kevin, by the way, for me to use his manuals of American Kempo and his definitions with these different concepts and techniques and to take the work. No AI by the way, this is back in twenty twenty two or so, you know, twenty twenty three, to actually take those Think it's about a 13 and 14 month process from like concept to publish of writing this book, bringing in these concepts. There's 66 techniques and 98 American Kenpo concepts that relate to recovery and also anxiety, depression, and trauma, which took more work. How can I translate these American Kempo techniques to these three other concerns? So with my experience and also with more of the the translation piece, I was able to to write the book. Garon: yeah, and you thought of all that in the bath Eric. I love that. Brilliant. And I mean, obviously Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Part of it. Part of it. Yeah. Garon: the the martial arts metaphor and i i in you know from what I've read in part of you know, what I've did find of around the book, you know, in the in the martial art of recovery, you know, kind of gives us another way of thinking about recovery, you know, awareness before reaction, practice rather than perfection. And and learning from, you know, loss of balance and and and I would kind of be careful not to kind of turn kind of recovery into a battle against the self. You know, the useful distinction for me is is that the addictive, you know, pattern can be challenged while the person is still met you know, with with dignity and compassion and and compu cu you know, curio curiosity, like you said earlier. And and and kind of reflecting back from my, you know, I'm happy open disclosing about what I went through in the past. I mean, when I when I had my own cocaine addiction, it lasted for about fifteen years. And and looking back, you know, the substance was kind of part of the part of the problem. So so, you know, but so you so were so were the patterns which we had, the avoidance, the emotional pain, and the life which I kind of organized around that. I mean when when you when you work with addic when when obviously you work with addiction, how important is it to understand what what the behaviour is doing for a person before, you know, trying to remove it? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah, you know, I don't chase rabbits and I like that you said a moment ago, Garen, that hey, it was a part of me with the cocaine news. And that's true for all of us, whether it's gambling or pornography or workaholism or cocaine or alcohol or delauded or whatever. It's a symptom of something that's a lot bigger underneath the surface. And so a lot of my work after the intake, like I'll understand, okay, it's alcohol, let's say. Okay. But I'm not gonna spend a lot of time talking about the alcohol use. We start to talk about yes, what the behaviors, what's pushing the behaviors, the core beliefs even that are pushing the behaviors, like I must be perfect, I must I'm not worthy, I never get the connection I want in my primary relationship, whatever it is, and start to delve into those and what Is it for escape reward or relief with these different behaviors? Okay, it's more for relief, okay? Relief from what? Or who?

And Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: then we start to dig further in to the crevices. Absolutely. Garon: Yeah, Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: sure. I like that. And and that's definitely true insight as somebody knows what they're talking about when it comes to addictions. It's it's a fantastic field. I mean, I don't work in the addictions, you know, I see the odd clients here and their addictions, but I don't work in the addiction services like I did. But it is a fascinating field when you strip that away and you look you're kinda like, Well, you know, what is it for? What what are you shielding? What are you kind of avoiding by using that? So it it's really fascinating how people can use substances to kinda either have that escapism or blocking out how they feel and and when we strip that back, you know, how vulnerable people can be and then they start discovering who they are. That's a a whole new journey alone, is is it not? And and it's so fascinating that people can Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: do that. I as sad as it sounds, I get really excited about this stuff. I need to get out more. And I mean I mean, martial arts involves obviously discipline, repetition, awareness, you know, pos positioning and and kind of responding rather than simply reacting. I mean which Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: which of those kind of principles translate most powerfully into recovery? 'Cause you you've done the transition from your martial arts to addictions and I find I find you've took such a brave move to make them work together in such an amazing way. So which of those kind of principles translate most kind of powerfully into recovery, if you like? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I believe the balance piece for sure. And if I had to give a second one, I would say like s like restraint or self-control, you know. 'Cause you know, as you and I know, doing sparring or learning techniques without gear on, a person needs to stop short of hitting somebody. So there needs to be a certain type of self control there. And yeah, when it comes to d different balance posture, different forms, different ready. tension stances just the balance part is it can't be understated how important it is even for sparring. So and hey when we're looking at addiction, sparring the opponent otherwise known as addiction, we need to have a proper balance with ourselves and other people and you know, I'm not grandiose nor am I like in utter despair and feel like I'm a turdwormed over, you know, like I'm I'm finding the balance in different ways. Garon: Yeah. And I really like that when you said about the opponent. And I find that really interesting because I never kind of want the person to themselves to become like the enemy if you like. So I really like that that you got the opponent as kinda looking at his the addiction. I really like that. I'm actually really keen to get this book, Eric. such an amazing insight how you've kind of used your own knowledge through martial arts and you kind of pull them together. And I think it was Kevin, I think you said, you know, I want to say thank you to him for giving you the opportunity to use these together. I I find it really fascinating how some of these, you know, martial arts, therapy, holistic. I love it how some of these interwine with each other. And I think you've done that so well with that. It I'm so keen to get the book and kind of get into your mind of what kind of put you into that area. So I find that really fascinating. And And and as we know, when it comes to, you know, addictions, a a relapse can can easily trigger the all or nothing thinking if you like, you know, I failed, so everything is a loss. And a more useful kind of therapeutic stance is to kind of examine, you know, what happened before, during and and after the setback, you know, you know, our triggers, our vulnerabilities, our thoughts, our emotions, you know, the environment and even consequences. and and use that information to kind of strengthen you know, the next response. and as we know, accountability matters. But but Shane can rarely teaches us as clearly as kind of like the compassionate reflection, if you like. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: and I mean how how do we learn from you know, this is obviously more so in the listeners at that, how do we learn from being knocked off balance without turning to kind of like the full into a as kind of like our identity. There's so many, you know, again, I'm I'm going on Miles guy's perspective. When I've had guys who either lapse or relapse, they go into that all or nothing thinking and they must go a hundred million miles ahead to catch up with themselves. I always say to them, don't lie to yourself. Do not set yourself up to fail because only you're only going to punish yourself harder. So I said, you've got nothing to prove to anyone out there whatsoever. It's only to you. Please take your time. And I always say to people when it comes to addictions, expect to lapse and relapse. As harsh as the reality truth is, some people, i.e. myself, when I I generally stopped cocaine, I generally stopped. I I just didn't want I had enough of taking it. So I was quite fortunate enough to say, you know what, I don't want it no more. I had, you know, the end of my chemical romance, if you like, after 15 years. And I I generally had enough. It it was either gonna kill me or something else would have done, especially with the people I was around. So I had to have my turnaround from that. And and I always say to people, you know, expect lapse and relapse to happen, but don't beat yourself up about it. It's what you do next about that. And I always try and especially males, they some can be soul enough in thinking. I always say to them, slow down. You know, don't be the greyhound on me. Take your time. You know, trying to create like what you said, balance when it comes to, you know, addictions. It's hard. I mean, people, you know, even myself, I've been clean now

what Since 2010 was the last time I used. Sometimes, you know, I haven't been out to a nightclub in years. I still love my music. I still love having a mix. You know, my past career was music. But even with myself, I do question that. What if I went out for that one night? What would happen? Would I be okay? So I have that question with my even that experience. I don't know what would happen. I generally don't know. I haven't been there yet. But at the same time, I always make sure that I'm going to be safe and I'm okay. As you know, the people, the places, our triggers, all these things around it. As you know yourself of addiction, it's trying to have this balance around it. And you can see why sometimes, you know, people do lapse and relapse. It it's a hard thing to say, you know. And and it's what I've always said to people, it's okay being aware of your addiction. It's all about how you maintain it afterwards, which isn't a walk in the park, as you know. It's really hard to do. And you know, obviously for someone listening who's who's relapsed and and and sitting in shame, you know, what would you kind of want them to understand about the difference between a setback and a surrender, if you like? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Mm, the difference between a setback and a surrender, I would say that self love is gonna be of the utmost importance and that goes into self concern. And self love doesn't mean that it is without other people and that involves, okay, I can look at surrendering to what is just in the present moment. You know, if I look at it as a self setback That absence violation effects gonna take place. I'm gonna beat myself up even more. It's the ongoing pursuit of restraint. No one's perfect at this. Recovery being an inside job, it's a mind game. So I do feel that when it comes to self-love, that is of paramount importance, Yaron. And you know, I think that with that, what does that mean? It means having an understanding of what my limits are. Doing at least two to three activities that promote that self love. Maybe it's like, okay, I'm gonna reach out to someone today after, you know, I got back on the sauce for a bit, gonna reach out. even if it's just a voicemail, we're gonna reach out. And also being able to do the proper self care, able to sleep, diet, all that. It's just, you know One step at a time, once again, that recovery time, that abstinence time, if they're pursuing abstinence, it didn't sound like it went away. You still have that underneath the belt, you know. So Garon: So yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: I know that the clock timer maybe on your on the app is not gonna be what you would have liked, yet it kinda goes back to to pacing where I need to be more People think that it needs to be all task, task task, but with pacing it's more about how am I spending my time. And I hope that with people, if they do come from a relapse, that they they surrender to to what is, just notice what they're feeling, what they're thinking, what

they're sensing, and just reach out, permit themselves to reach out in different ways. Garon: Sure. Sure. Thank you. And and and obviously the other side of your career as well, you know, master practitioner of accelerated resolution therapy and trained in EMDR. That's one thing I've I've wanted to do is the EMDR side of things. And and for for listeners who who know Neva, I mean, how would you explain the basic purpose of these approaches without kind of drowning people in clinical language, if you like? Mm-hmm. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: And I could do that so someone wouldn't ask me again, you know, and be c Garon: Ha ha ha. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: and be conniving about it. I would say you're in and I tell people it this way. Let's say you've been through a traumatic event. It's kinda like having a bullet in the wound still. Either of these therapies is gonna help you take that wound or that bullet out of your wound so that you can heal properly. Garon: Cool, I like that. Yeah, I've never heard that one before. I like that. I'm never gonna remember that either, Arik. I'm gonna have to contact you different times. I really like that. I do really like that. That's definitely very interesting. Yeah, definitely food for it. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Or the or the yeah. Or the other one I tell people is, hey, you've had a book underneath your couch for a long time. It's been picking up dust and lent and dirt and you know, maybe someone spilled a drink and it touched the book. Anyway, doing this therapy is gonna allow you to put that book representing trauma back on the shelf where that book belongs. Garon: Yeah, I like that. That's very good. You've worked hard for this knowledge, ain't ya? Anyone think you've been working Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: No. Garon: for odd sixteen years plus, Eric? No, that's really I Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha. Garon: really like how you put that and how you've answered that. And I mean, after all the years, you know, w what do you actually what do you think actually makes a therapeutic relationship useful? Not kind of like a modality, you know, the relationship yourself. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's that's the answer. It's the therapeutic relationship. And that's what the research shows. That's what experiential experience and I'm sure you've I mean, I can't assume, but I'm sure you've seen it too, where it's it's really the interaction between two people because that space that they have maybe the only safe space that they have during that week to talk about depression, trauma, anxiety, addiction, whatever it is. So Garon: Sure. I yeah, I mean I can imagine, you know, it's a base of person center. I can see you're very much that like that, but you got the EMDR as well. and that'd be really interesting to see when your sessions in regards to okay, this person's aware of it, okay, move with it. I really like kind of how you look at things and how you kind of work with them, especially with obviously the metaphors and using the martial arts of that and and using that for your own idea, you know. I I I think that's such an amazing be thing to be able to do and you know yourself making that shift is us as therapists being aware of that, but being the client as well who who hasn't got like, you know, the wonderful tools and that we're trained in, but having that kind of reality check when they do shift forward, you know yourself are such a powerful move and I do have the odd moment where I I flip my laptop down and I finish a session. I'm like, I've helped them a little bit and I have a little giggle to myself 'cause I'm really proud of myself. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Ha ha ha Garon: And and honestly, you know, Carl Rogers speaks of the cool conditions, you know, which remained obviously the foundation for me being because the technique without relationship could become, I'd probably say, mechanical. And and empathy, as we all know, is not simply agreeing and congruence isn't not just saying, you know, everything we think. And and UPR, you know, unc un unconditional positive regard does not mean kind of approving every behaviour. Together they kind of help. create a relationship in which a person can encounter themselves with with kind of greater honesty and less defensiveness. As you know yourself, as you know, people say that, I'm an empath and I show empathy. I'm not sure about you, but I'm quite sure I didn't learn that and understand that not too much in my level two and three. I had to go a little bit higher and and build up the air thing, hang a minute, this is I'm understanding a little bit more what UPR is and congruent is and and showing that person true empathy. empathy. It it's a hard thing to balance and and understand if you like. And and obviously Rogers remains kind of central to how I think about counseling, you know, acceptance isn't you know, passivity. I mean sometimes being genuinement is what makes kind of honest is honest change possible. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes. Garon: and I've kind of learned that sometimes, you know, the most therapeutic thing I can do it It's kind of stop trying to be kind of clever and actually s stay with the person, you know. h has has your kind of own experience made you, you know, simpler as a therapist in some ways? Because I'm not sure about yourself. When I I first started running my practice and I I remember starting having my first clients, I was thinking of the modalities. I was like, okay, well, what one do they relate to? Instead of me sitting back now like I do now. I sit back and, you know, I have an idea of referrals and okay, let's see what they bring to it. But back then I was kinda like, I can relate to that 'cause Roger said this or, you know, Eric Byrne mentioned this. So I was kind of so busy focused on the mentalities in the person. I think that's, you know, part of my learning. I I mean again, it it's kind of with your experience, how how did you kind of fall into

that? And and how did you start working in a way when when you started you know, working as a therapist trained. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Lots of nuance with the different parts for Jerry and A and UC you know, unconditional boss, regard, acceptance, et cetera. And thank you for sharing those. Yeah. And just the it's not just black or white. There is some gray. And I would say it's a paradox, Garen. Like I used to be like, okay, what's gonna be the right perfect modality for this person Garon: Mm-hmm. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: at the time of the intake? I need to know it, need to show it, need to share it. You know what, as time has gone on, it's become more organic for me as far as using different modalities. And yeah, I could do like DBT and C B T in one session. And it it just kinda comes up organically nowadays for me in real time. Back then, I mean I'm still green. I mean I'm never I haven't arrived yet on the boat to perfection land or to all knowing land. So I it's bec it's I've become a lot more relaxed, a lot more laid back with it. It comes more organically in real time in the session. And actually get that feedback from someone I worked with professionally just a few days ago where they said, Yeah, you you just bring up things in the session that is kind of like what we what we need to hear. And I appreciate that compliment because I don't know if that's happening or not unless someone tells me. So Garon: Sure. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: at least from that experience that was given to somebody. And I don't mean to toot my horn in, that's just the compliment that was given. So yes, it's cu it's become less intense with I gotta know at the front end, front load and it's it kind of becomes more organic for me as it's went along and I've had to enrapture that and accept that myself, Gary. Garon: And it's very interesting as well. It's like you received a compliment recently about how you work. And even then, those guys are terrible for it. Yeah, I I'll just carry on talking. We so knock that back, don't we? But deep down, we're like, actually, I'm quite proud of myself there. So you can be proud of that, Eric. I'll pull that out of ya. And and obviously, again, not Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yes, yes. Yes, thank thank you. Yes. Thank you, Kurt, yeah. Garon: only a therapist, you know, a counselor, you you're a you're kind of an award recognized screenwriter and author as well. So I mean, what does kind of storytelling allow you to communicate that kind of clinical explanation somewhat sometimes? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Allows me to communicate perseverance and transformation, even doing, you know, fictional screenplays, character development and, you know, dark night of the soul and picking up the bootstraps. And then there's a resolution, which, you know, maybe it's not altogether picture perfect, yet it just shows what someone can go through in their life. And so I I do feel like storytelling can show resilience and can show the importance of relationships

as well. And so those are some different aspects that can be communicated with the heroes journey, if you will, you Garon: Sure. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: know, of somebody. Garon: Yeah, so really you brought something up. David, who's one of my guests on on a few podcasts alone, he very similar because he does writing and that. And just hearing from what you said there with me kind of turning away from sc the screen, you sounded so familiar. And I thought, Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Hmm. Garon: my god, David said this very same thing being a writer. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Mm-hmm. Garon: yeah, very interesting. I probably would be go good for you guys to network or one another because he he's more kind of sci-fi books. but yeah, as soon as you heard that, my god, it sounds like David. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: so I mean, again, it if if somebody kind of again, you know, I I wanna kinda leave this with the listeners really. And and first of all, thank you so much for one giving your time and your experience. I I so wanna keep in touch with you and and everybody else because it I I could speak to you guys for hours. And I feel like the most frustrating thing is the most amazing people I've spoken to on my podcast. I'd love to just meet you guys for coffee. I'd spend hours of you. I'll probably talk your ears off. But in general, Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah. Garon: it it's so so kind of upsetting for me knowing you guys all over there. And I I sincerely do want to kind of keep in contact with you. It feels like when I meet a professional, I'm like, my god, they're part of my tribe. But why have you got to live over there? It it happens to me every time. And I mean again, if if let's say for instance somebody feels if somebody who's listening now feels buried by life right right now. How how do they work out what the dirt actually is? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Well well first off I would say I'll just have to move over to West Oxford Shire. And secondly, I would say for somebody if they don't know what the dirt is, sometimes redat reality testing can be helpful with other people, even if it's just one other person, you know? And just being curious, just having curiosity is a part of that too. And not being afraid to be off or be wrong or make a mistake, thinking it was something else when it was it's actually something else. It's it's all information. Okay, I know it's not this. Well, it must be something else then. And just giving someone a little bit of grace, giving some self-compassion being a big part. with understanding what that dirt actually is. Because if I can give myself some self compassion, maybe I c I can start to pull back a little bit and I can start to see these different components that are working together. Garon: like that as well. That comes up a lot, self compassion. we forget about that. We we're we're so especially now when I hear clients are so hard on themselves. And and even when people said to me in the professional aspects, especially in the NHS field, people like, you know, how how can we meet our clients better? I said meet them with compassion. It it's just such a basic thing we can do. If you meet them with that, you'll be surprised of how much people can open up with you and and let them know you are there with you in the room. You're not there with a clip bug. ticking a box and I know I get told off of my fellow psychologist saying that but I'm a rebellious counselor and I've got every right get myself into trouble over that one. and and obviously everything you've learned from dad I mean his scenario, your clients, your martial arts, the counselling as well as your own life what does freedom you know a freedom from the dirt mean to you now, Eric? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: The ability to not see failure or perceive failure as the end. It's a part of the journey. I took the exam to become an agent and didn't pass as far as with the Bureau, and that's okay. You know? That's okay. It it allowed me if if I became an agent, I wouldn't have become a counselor. So there's different routes for us. Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: And I do believe that Perceived failure is just another indication of a route that perhaps I don't need to go. And I can look at another route for myself. And so that's one thing I've learned along the way, whether it's with the screenplays, yeah, with certain therapy cases, and yes, with the with the FEI, it's it's okay. It's gonna be okay. Garon: Wow. And and just, you know, again, obviously I'd I'd love to be able to keep you for hours there. I can keep record playing. I I just know we'd speak for hours here. So with people Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Mm-hmm. Garon: listening here, with with what you do with your work, where you're based, I mean your books, this is your spotlight. And and and I know you're not one of those egotistical therapists who wants to sell everything there. You you're definitely not that. You're you're very true and authentic and I I really would love to keep in contact with you and and pick your brain about different things and Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Absolutely likewise. Garon: I mean, for the people out there, how do they get hold of Eric, Clem? Because we we got your book, you got your martial arts, you got your therapy. How do people in your area get hold of you if I think, hang on, this guy gets what what where I am? How do they reach out to you? Where's the best place to get hold of you? And I I will just to let listeners know, I will put all of Eric's websites, how to contact him, they'll be all in the description as well. So how do people get hold of you, Eric? Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: Yeah, Garan they can find me on Recovery Arts Counseling Facebook. Just type that in. You could find me through the old website, recovery arts counseling with dot com with two L's, which I think it might be the same in in England. and Garon: Show Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: in in the States they do one L for whatever reason. Yeah, yeah. Garon:

That's it. Yeah. That's interesting they don't do it in Canada. I'm glad you highlighted that. I thought they would have done, but yeah, very interesting. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: They they they adhere to the crown. Garon: Yeah. Eric Fisher, MS, CCC: let's see. yeah, and then just Instagram, recovery arts counseling, Eric Fisher, writer, LinkedIn, my name, just look up my name, Calgary Alberta. And that's a few of the ways to find me, yeah. Garon: Excellent. And and again, I I really do appreciate your time. It I find this this is a bit I don't like, you know, the the endings, Eric. Every time I go on this journey, it it means so much to me having you guys. I I've I've had what we on episode 22 now. And I wasn't expecting to get this far with them. So to you and all my guests I've had on here, sincerely thank you so much for your time, your journey. And most importantly, you're still here with us, Eric, because you know yourself some of our personal journeys could push us to that. breaking point and you know, who knows, maybe if if either one of us wasn't resilient enough to keep on going and and cope with what we had to, which has kind of helped us become the individual therapists that we are. I mean, we're very lucky to be here and I'm I'm very lucky to to be in this position to be able to have these talks with you guys. It i it's kinda when I thought about setting this up a few years back, I I was like ain't gonna happen. Now I'm doing it. So sincerely thank you, you know, and what I've enjoyed about this conversation is that we've you know, kind of talked about kind of past survival without kind of romancing the suffering. And we've talked about obviously agency without pretending people simply choose everything that happens to them. and for me, you know, that's where obviously useful conversation about recovery, you know, have have to kind of live compassion and responsibly, especially in the same room. So I mean, really, really thank you so much. And like I say to all my clients, I'd I'd really love you to have you on in the near future as an update to see how you're going. Is there anything new? Is there any new books? Have you combined another martial arts through counseling theory? And, you know, again, I I really truly would love to keep in touch with you. And and I would like to kind of do it to the point where I'd love to get speak to another couple of the therapists I've had on here and mouse and I'd love to have that conversation I said to you about. I I'd love to see our different perspectives, what our battles were, what helped us get through, you know. whole lot it it's obviously another conversation for another time so so thank you so much eric for for for giving me his time and and if you'd like to contact eric all his dis information will be in the description page and and thank you for listening to the Greens podcast with myself Garon Green and this is real conversations real stories and real hope and my guest has been Eric Fisher a Canadian certified counsellor author of Buried Alive Four ways to free yourself from the dirt and the martial art of recovery and the counsellor behind recovery arts counselling and that's in Calgary, you know, Alberta. So if you'd like to get hold of him, please do get in touch. And if one thing from this episode stays with you, maybe, you know, let it be this. Feeling buried does not mean you are beyond reach, but getting free is rarely one dramatic movement. Sometimes it begins with curiosity, sometimes with honesty and introspection, and sometimes with reclaiming one piece of agency, reconnecting with another person, or you know, taking one action that moves you a little closer to the life you want. And if you're struggling with addiction, trauma, depression, anxiety. Or anything else we've discussed today, please remember that listening to a podcast isn't a substitute for professional support. This episode is for general information and reflection. It isn't counseling, psychotherapy, or diagnosis or any medical advice or crisis support. And and and you'll find, you know, Eric's confirmed website and social links in the episode description below, along with the links to the Green Spass Green Space Podcast. And if you do like what you hear, please do share. You know, the whole purpose of this podcast is to reach out to that one person who's struggling. And and you know, who knows, that may be you. And we're here for you to get in touch. So and until next time, you know, please do look after yourselves. And if life feels as though it has piled, you know, too much dirt on top of you, don't make the mistake of believing you have to dig alone because you don't. So please do reach out if you need to. So thank you again for Eric for giving me your most amazing time. I'm looking forward to the books. I will be reading the martial art as well. I so want to read Bury Alive now, even more so. You know, take my hat off to your dad. Please do send him my best because what he's been through, I can only imagine, especially older generation with the lack of support that we have nowadays. You know, please, you know, take my hat off to him and send him my best wishes over the pond for me, please. And and please do keep in touch as well, Eric. I'd love to keep in touch more with you and pick your brain more. So thank you so much for listening to the Green Room podcast. my name's Garen Green and I'll see you in our next episode. So until then, from me and Eric, please take care and most importantly, look after yourselves.