TRANSCRIPT 🔗
[0:01] Welcome to The Empathic Edge.
[0:07] Welcome back to The Empathic Edge with Megan Smith, founder of Empathic Edge.
[0:11] Megan is an attorney and negotiation professor in dispute resolution professional, focused
[0:15] on the future of human communication in an AI-driven world.
[0:19] Through negotiation strategy, emotional intelligence, and high stakes conversation training, she
[0:24] helps professionals build confidence and perform more effectively under pressure.
[0:28] I'm evan Mack.
[0:29] Today we're talking about why negotiations can succeed or fail long before anyone says
[0:34] a word.
[0:35] Miss Megan, my dear.
[0:36] Welcome back.
[0:37] Thanks for having me.
[0:38] It's good to see you, Evan.
[0:39] Good to see you too.
[0:40] So what shapes a negotiation before the conversation even begins?
[0:44] I'm going to say three words, preparation, preparation, preparation.
[0:48] So really it's one word, but that's that's really what it is.
[0:52] You do need to go into negotiation with an open mind, but you have to prepare beforehand.
[0:59] And I think that's something that a lot of people just don't do, especially because they
[1:02] think, oh, I've done this before.
[1:05] I'm skilled in it.
[1:06] I see this a lot with lawyers.
[1:08] Oh, I don't really need negotiation practice.
[1:10] I've been practicing for 20 plus years.
[1:12] Yeah.
[1:13] Well, I haven't been practicing for 20 plus years, but I have been teaching negotiations and
[1:16] practicing for over a decade.
[1:18] And I will tell you, it is a journey.
[1:21] So I try to learn new skills, even just communication skills.
[1:25] Now like post-COVID world, AI world, the way that we communicate with other people has
[1:30] changed.
[1:32] Especially we see it with law students, right?
[1:34] Like students over the years, things have changed.
[1:37] We now have students or have for a few years now who've pretty much had their entire like
[1:41] college and possibly even law school experiences online.
[1:46] So it's definitely a journey and we need to prepare for it beforehand.
[1:50] So which preparation mistakes tend to create these problems before anyone enters the room?
[1:56] You know, I think people either don't do enough preparation or they have inserted their
[2:03] own assumptions and their own judgments.
[2:06] So they've decided, you know, here's what I think are all the best facts for my side and
[2:12] maybe the worst facts and same for the other side.
[2:15] But they don't always go into it as objective as they should, which can be hard.
[2:20] We feed in our own biases and our own subjectivity, but you really have to kind of take a step
[2:25] back and ask, you know, what is the goal of this negotiation?
[2:30] What is the outcome that I'm seeking and or that I think is likely and then kind of go from
[2:37] there?
[2:38] How do expectations about the other side influence, you know, strategy, tone, decision making before
[2:44] you even have a discussion?
[2:46] I think that what I see a lot especially with law students, they kind of go into negotiations
[2:51] with two assumptions.
[2:54] One is assumption about the information.
[2:56] So they think that they already know, you know, what the other side is going to say or they
[3:02] just know everything, right about all the parties, everything involved and or they go into making
[3:09] assumptions about the other person, you know, individually.
[3:14] So what I see a lot of the time is people get really nervous about the idea of negotiating
[3:19] with somebody who they think will play hardball.
[3:22] Sometimes we call them a shark or they're really just, it's an assertive conflict mode and
[3:27] people will ask a lot, how do I deal with that kind of personality?
[3:31] And so I think that those are information and then the other side conflict mode or the personality
[3:36] or kind of the two biggest assumptions that people go into a negotiation with or expectations
[3:43] and that really changes a lot of the time how you prepare, right?
[3:48] If I think that I'm going into negotiation with somebody who's going to be extremely assertive
[3:54] and then all of a sudden they're very accommodating or they're avoidant, that will change things
[3:59] significantly and I need to adapt to that.
[4:02] What gets overlooked when someone prepares mainly a route what they want to say instead of
[4:06] what they need to understand?
[4:08] Oh, I love that question so much.
[4:13] We're not open to opportunity if we're going in and, and believe me, I do this a lot
[4:19] or I have over the years, especially because I prepared to be a trial attorney.
[4:24] So I'm thinking like cross-examination, right?
[4:26] And I'm thinking of what's the next best thing that I'm going to say here that's just
[4:29] going to blow the jury's mind.
[4:32] What happens then is you see that you miss that golden nugget, like the witness says something
[4:37] that you didn't feed off of because you weren't actually paying attention.
[4:41] And we're thinking about the next thing you were going to say.
[4:45] So a lot of the time people miss out on opportunities, whether it's for improving the relationship,
[4:52] creating or maximizing value, coming up with a creative solution that would work for all
[4:57] of the parties, we miss that when we are thinking about our own script or what it is that I'm
[5:03] going to say next.
[5:05] Sometimes there's a time and a place for it, right?
[5:07] I think that if you are sort of pitching yourself to your employer for an advanced opportunity
[5:15] or to get more education, go in there of course, knowing, you know, here are things that I've
[5:21] done for this company, here's how I've shown that I've committed, here's the actual growth
[5:26] and progression that I've made and the value that I've added, all great things to know.
[5:32] But if your boss says, hey, we're just at a time of downturn right now and we're not
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[5:36] investing in additional educational opportunities, right, then that would shut down the conversation.
[5:43] It's important to go in being open and thinking about ways that you could adapt or come up with
[5:48] some creative solutions as well.
[5:50] How much does emotional readiness affect performance before pressure ever shows up?
[5:55] Oh, it's the most important thing because at the end of the day, when we are pushed into
[6:01] a corner, when we become defensive and it's usually fear based, if we don't have the physical
[6:08] tools, like the wrote memory that are for our bodies to have prepared beforehand, then you
[6:14] will pretty much always end up in the same situation over and over again, right?
[6:19] It's practicing the same skill but changing nothing.
[6:23] If I'm not actually practicing how to adjust, that can be things even such as, you know,
[6:28] my breathing, taking a pause, maybe even taking a break.
[6:33] Sometimes it's kind of putting a pin in a particular topic and moving on to see if we can reach
[6:38] an agreement on something else.
[6:40] I need to be willing to change my strategy and that includes also calming my own nervous
[6:45] system and sometimes just taking that much needed break or breath that I need.
[6:52] So for me, that's pretty much the most important thing and that's the one thing that I will
[6:59] I think two things that humans are still always going to be needed for is our human judgment
[7:04] and that emotional connection, right, and being able to work on ourselves but connecting
[7:10] with other people as well.
[7:11] So Megan, can you share a negotiation story where preparation or maybe lack of preparation
[7:17] changed the trajectory of the conversation before a real conversation unfolding?
[7:21] Yeah, I can think especially early in my career before I went into law, I remember I didn't
[7:27] really know, you know, what I wanted to do.
[7:29] I was interested in government and nonprofit work, which I did eventually get into, but
[7:34] one of my first interviews and I got the job but it was sales and it was really door to
[7:43] door, you know, sales.
[7:45] And that was just not really for me, but I went into it so, you know, eager to get this
[7:52] experience and just desiring to get a yes, I wanted somebody to say yes, we want to hire
[7:57] you that I didn't prepare for it in advance.
[8:01] I didn't think about the things that I would need, right, like I maybe I'm a good fit and
[8:07] I can do the job, but this is a two-way street.
[8:11] And so I think that I did that there and that was not the only time that I did it in
[8:15] my career.
[8:16] So a lot of the time going in sort of hat and hand like, okay, I needed job or I want this
[8:21] job without really asking myself, do I really want this job?
[8:26] Is this where I want to be?
[8:27] And am I the best fit for this company as well?
[8:30] What kind of assumptions quietly maybe influence negotiations long before people recognize they
[8:36] are operating from them?
[8:39] I think a lot of people tend to assume that other people want to hurt you, right?
[8:45] They want what's best for them and that is always to your detriment which is not the case
[8:50] most of the time.
[8:51] I think we also make assumptions, a lot of the time it's for the negative, it's, I'm sorry
[8:57] you'll see my dog bustling back there.
[9:01] People will assume kind of the worst.
[9:04] So it's, you know, they're mad at me, they don't like me, they're not receptive to what
[9:09] I'm saying, they're not listening to me.
[9:13] My husband, he is somebody who he speaks very slowly and he thinks before he speaks.
[9:19] So which is great, but I tend to talk a lot faster and I'm doing kind of a million things
[9:25] at one time and so I'll be like, are you listening?
[9:28] I really have no idea.
[9:31] And usually he is, but it's easy to assume you're not even listening to me.
[9:36] How do experienced negotiators prepare differently from people who really, they kind of rely heavily
[9:42] on instinct or improvisation?
[9:45] That was a conversation I had with somebody earlier this week.
[9:48] I said, I know that you've mentioned before you've gone into job interviews and you improv.
[9:54] You're not really preparing for it because you say I have all this experience I don't really
[9:57] need to and they were going into a difficult conversation with a colleague.
[10:02] And I said, I think you need, just, just try, right?
[10:05] What does it hurt to try doing it differently?
[10:08] So prepare for it beforehand.
[10:09] So again, kind of preparing things like, you know, if it's a timeline or just the facts, right?
[10:15] No, no why you did something a certain way.
[10:19] Get the information from the people around you, right?
[10:21] So there were other people involved, hey, why don't I get feedback from them?
[10:25] Ask them some open and a questions like, how did this situation make you feel?
[10:29] How would you have preferred that we handle it differently?
[10:32] So kind of have all that information prepared beforehand and then also prepare yourself physically.
[10:39] So I said, why don't we even do a role play?
[10:42] That way I can come at you and I can be pretty assertive and aggressive and you can see how
[10:47] your body is reacting to that before you have to go into this difficult conversation because
[10:53] we want to see what happens at that point in time because I guarantee you they were going
[10:59] to become defensive.
[11:00] So they would want to defend themselves, defend their position when that likely was never
[11:06] going to be the thing that would impact their colleague.
[11:09] I think they are more like bigger picture, probably story oriented.
[11:14] And so hearing individual facts would just not have been as helpful for them.
[11:19] So what does thoughtful preparation include beyond facts, arguments and strategy?
[11:25] I would say repetition, like practicing, is the idea that like a surgeon or an athlete,
[11:32] right, they're not going into surgery or, you know, playing a high-performance sport on
[11:37] the day of.
[11:38] This is something that they practice for years.
[11:42] And because we talk daily, I think we just assume that we're great communicators, but
[11:48] it's a skill that we need to be working on and constantly developing.
[11:52] So getting that repeatable practice beforehand, that way you get to try out different things
[11:57] as well, right?
[11:58] Okay, so what happens when I ask that why question or that open end of question versus if I just
[12:04] say, well, this is my position, this is where I'm coming from, right, like let's just try
[12:09] it out with different people or with like, with empathic edge with our AI role play.
[12:15] So I can see what's the impact.
[12:18] Ms. Megan, thank you so much for your time and your expertise.
[12:24] Thank you.
[12:25] It's been a pleasure.
[12:26] That's it for today's episode of the empathic edge.
[12:28] If you'd like to learn more about make it Smith, empathic edge and their work around negotiation,
[12:32] communication and AI-powered practice training, visit empathic edge.com.
[12:37] Thank you so much for listening.
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[12:42] ways to handle difficult conversations and we'll see you all next time.
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